Theyll be signing copies afterwards if anybody wants to purchase one. Nday on q a. , washington journal continues. Host joining us from toronto canada is mubin shaikh. He is the author of the book undercover jihadi. Tell us valuable, why did you write a . Guest hello. I really wanted to put the message out for really, other mothers other young muslims. To put take the book up and hopefully see themselves in it. For people to see what happens to people. There were multiple reasons for doing it. Host you talk about your own adoption of radical ideas. Tells about your story. How did you get to that point . Guest i went to Public School during the daytime. It was a very mixed environment. Very caring, nurturing environment. As opposed to in the evening, i would go to koran school. It was like the indian or pakistani system where boys and girls were separated. You sit in front of wooden benches, not understanding of word of what you are reading. If you made a mistake, you were slapped. This severe contrast, i believe late of foundation for an identity crisis that would manifest later on in life. When i got to high school, i wasnt picked on or bullied. I was one of the cool kids. We were part of the in crowd, so to speak. I had a house party, and my house party and my father was out of the country. He told his brother, my uncle to check on the house while he was gone. Of course, in the middle of the house party, my uncle walked in. I was 17 years old. A teenager, it was the end of the world for me. I was shamed into feeling so bad about what i had done, i convinced myself that the only way i could make amends with my family was to quote unquote get religious. To do that, i went to india and pakistan on a fourmonth religious trip. While i was in pakistan, i had a chance encounter with the taliban. That is where i was the by the jihadi bug, as i call it, and became a supporter of both the taliban and al qaeda after that. Host if you want to talk to the guest about his experience and thoughts arise as asian, 202 7488001 for republicans. 202 7488000 for democrats. What happened and why did influence you so much . Guest this was the summer of 1995 i had gone to replace that at that time was the stronghold of the taliban and later became the nerve center for the ruling council. When i showed up i had no understanding of politics in the region i did that know who the taliban were about was not paying attention for i had heard stories of the soviet invasion in afghanistan and then the war from 1995 and the other groups that i had gone with so they encouraged other muslims to be more religious the adn that the more you fast guide could bring about change in the worlds. So i could see some bearded men with turbines so i drew near to them that they have a lot of weaponry. So coming from that background with the identity crisis to seek a validation with the islamic persona i was young and adventurous. For a lot of people through today to look upon these groups like he rose in in the days of old. Now here i am. They presented to be a category of hero meanwhile. Host talking about the topic of chief hidy said it is solely taught as a Necessary Evil of lifelike characters teach it itself now it is revered. Tell us about the topic of. [applause] jihad. Literally dead me a struggle or in combat the struggle to combat regarding you personally so read news struggle in a war or in a combat situation that is the secondary meeting of jihad so when you do hear jihad it refers to the combat forum. And the word means fighting the use of the context of fighting that if you want to bring about change and he held that the ak47 whether under selfdefense and the understanding of jihad. Finigan is a legitimate rule war tradition with rules of engagement what people do today in the name of jihad is not but terrorism. Host coauthor of the book undercover jihadi of 39 we will talk to him about his experience but the first call is from john from massachusetts on the democratic line. Goahead. Caller i dont know if you know, this i am not that religious but there is an article a court case and what about a woman who worked for abercrombie and fetch perhaps sooner because of her religion and was there five years and they told her when things were unfair that i notice the you have a crucifix on your person. The next time you go back to work to hide your crucifix is she said i cannot do that. If you do that then we will fire you. To make go long story short she sued the company and went to the Supreme Court and she won and the only negative votes was clarence thomas. I dont know your background of religion. If you worked for abercrombie and fitch would you have sued the company . Guest if we live in a society that extols the virtues of religious freedom and that is taken away if you read a workplace and lose your job because they force you to choose between your faith and your job they will be responsible so i would take that opportunity to teach them a lesson. Host the independent line. Caller good morning. I have a specific question about the tenets of islam that led you first you justify the theory and then the tenets of that what led you to review if you would justify . Wire was that shift of perspective . Religion is like a hammer you can either build a home or destroy a whole mitt does come down to the perspective that you have for though world view that you hold a. With i was a greek looking for an identity and adventure when i was young it was the idea to be cool for i fell into it because i had no religious training with religious people in then to poachers syria to steady their religion and properly but to learn the rules of interpretation and then do decide to give that interpretation to look at the Historical Context the literal meaning of words and verses the of that construction contractual understanding got me out of it. Six professional get emotional aspect and that is what gets people interested. Look the more intellectual approach got me out. Host so you were helped by a moderate . Guest yes. My oldest son is somebody who does it jihad park and he was born in 1999 so i was on that side. In the arab world they call you father of your the oldest child a name so when i answer my name he said are you a jihadi . He said yes. Then he began to challenge rearenders standing of of word but then he realized lets followup with this after class because he space was from of canada to educate so to go through every single verse that has that concept of fighting and then we conceptualize thats host . Caller good morning. I have one question. [inaudible] they have steady culture on muslim media with a christian word so they were murdered indiscriminately. And then to find the help me to avoid the palestinian has. What is the difference . Jefferson said give me liberty or give me death. But our grandchildren and children today have any option left . I am the last person. I have hindu and muslim moments but there is one option from an african country. So what option does muslim have . Host we want to let our guests respond. Guest thanks for saying that. The point was about the crusade with these grievances what do you do about it . If the rule of law it is very important for us to frame our responses. Even at the time of the crusade when the abuses were taking place he did not return that kind of violence. For example to throwed dead rodding corps over the wall in hopes to in fact people as biological warfare but the muslim girl leasehold that we did not reciprocate with the same kind of violence per it is based on one and time in the peron and the caribbean. You are not allowed to reciprocate with the same kind of harm. There is no harming or reciprocating of farm so there must be framed under the rule of law so there is the rule of selfdefense if you are persecuted because you believe in one god it is what the car rand said about jihad. Those are evicted from the home in the law of selfdefense and whoever comes to destroy your home because you believe what is happening that you are allowed to fight. Host from indiana good morning. Caller i will tell you something i have read the quran about a thousand times read the quran he said he would kill people. He said he would do whatever he had to do. Mohamad was of a terrorist. You become a muslim or you die. Guest i read that quran is in arabic he does not say the word i read you have to read a 20,000 and one more time. Host illinois goahead caller my comments purity and chastity is for guiding and the federalist papers mention article eight and number 64 which pertains to america. And i believe that it is completely contradictory to reality if you read the federalist papers because the American Revolution was based on letters number eight and 11 and 64 that in america it is a mentality and the revolution was based on this mentality. And of we lost this mentality and we have to look back to the mentality of the 1787 constitution. Host thank you. Off of twitter what is militant islam and what is the beef with america or problem with america specifically . Guest the problem with us, to frame in a Historical Context, i certainly dont put the blame on the u. S. Alone thus a venetia divided and that clash has been there over 1,000 years. See you cannot blame them for that but look at their recent history go back at 1950 or 1916 when the region was divided up and then subsequently at the decades after that i understand the u. S. Approach is not different from the muslim approach because we were all so colonialist it is funny when they see them criticize like what i just said about my own history and the Foreign Policy but to set up a proxy groups it was a fight between the russians and the west and in afghanistan with the british and the soviet so really the problem is they see what the u. S. Is doing to prop up the dictators that oppress the people that may point that the society to say space they cannot produce anything must me because of their religion which is a false observation because of society they are subjected to. It is not just the u. S. Adopt hussein came to power by a coup. It was not u. S. Engineered but there are cases it is also doing the geopolitics that is what ticks them off a ec not with military deployments. Host mississippi you our next. Caller i and a stand with said duse and the donts of the religion that everyone is wrong. If i understand the point correctly you cannot make a generalization about any group i used to do this to christians and hindu and buddhist and the jewish. But then i met them and talk to them and studied more. Every not necessarily agree with all points of the doctrine but if they have a good attitude and good character i dont care what you leafhopper sizable judge you on your character. Host what is the modernday recruitment . And the idea of social media to be used to recruit followers . I will be 40 in a couple of months and i am that all i can say i was around in the early 90s when it was still chat that was the first exposure to social that work that i had. It is vastly different even from 15 or 17. What you see is the idea you dont have to get out of your home to develop intimate relationships with other people to influence you in ways that really only somebody in real life could do that so that is the main difference that i see from back then to today the rate at which they can interact with other people and the scale you could be talking to somebody from all different corners of the globe today they you could not do back then but i do think that social media plays a large role to create new dynamics for recruitment and radicalization but a completely new experience of human interaction. Host you are on with our guest, mubin shaikh. Caller i have a comment in regards to the problems or hostilities americans have toward muslims. We seek see the christians beheaded or soldiers dragged through the streets in the form an opinion based of what they see. Then we try to help them and they still want to kill one another and for thousands of years and we get fed up with that then the muslims will cry racism and then said to have to research and close and we hear the race baiting under obama now and said geopolitics that you mentioned this because of the Oil Contracts with this whole political arena. That is the problem people have with muslims to them killing one another and killing christians in the middle east and we sit back here in the United States and as of veteran i see this and get frustrated. We are forced to adopt their religion and way of life but they should assimilate two hours per credits ridiculous. This is the United States we went there to force religion people have been killed. Guest i really dont blame lot of americans especially what they see being done in the name of islam if i had not grown up in the Islamic State or expose what i was exposed to, i would think islam is a barbarian religion, i would be hard pressed to figure of how their worship god. So i apologize largely because of what people do in the name of god. The perception of the people based on the extremism of violins manifestation of their religion but if lucy walks down the street to slip on the banana peel we say she slipped because she is a klutz. Know it is the banana peel i would subject that the governments and the dictators is the banana peel that they are slipping so if you empower the dictators then dont blame their religion because they are holding the people down to the point today cannot come up with creative ways to deal with society. Look at it is from when the theologians were the scientists. As the contribution to science and literature by the muslims so it is false to say the muslim world can do it because of their religion but it is a situational attribution. The last point, you are right if the u. S. Will force religion it is the same with democracy. You cannot force a society to come to a system of governance that does not resonate and that is the problem we need to develop a mechanism that wreck reconciles their sacred values not just ignore their traditions just to impose our own system. Host do still reach out to to the radicals in what is your reaction . Guest i do all the time the reaction is within the spectrum that you are a sellout and the apostate youre not a real muslim and some of them say i dont trust you but you make sense so i will have a raised eyebrow. Then the other category that they do listen. I have been dealing with a lot of peoplehood to bring them away from that mine said to have a regular conversation for a wire brutally honest and i think people like that especially the young people they feel alienated they are marginalized they can see all around them everybody hates is flawed and that is the narrative when you see people making cartoons and block the profit then it is racism or antisemitism you cannot say freedom of speech then insult people most sacred views then when they install something of yours to say it is not in this case. So what they see that they cannot see or they are struggling. Host when you see an act of violence what initially goes through your mind at any level . Is that justified . Guest is never justified. What goes through my mind is how does this help our cause . There was a struggling publication there were making fun of everyone now suddenly it jumps 1200500 percent the pitchers were replicated and celebrated. I detest the images it breaks my heart i dont insult the other peoples faith ill live by example. And do not insult their guide less then eight insult your is out of ignorance so using violence is counterproductive. Host in the book is undercover jihadi coauthored about his experience by mubin shaikh now North Carolina you are on with overcast. Caller good morning. Have a of a quick question about a presage in the quran i am paraphrasing. Where you pretend to be french your enemies and you can get in there to do them harm . Could you please tell me how that is not relevant . Sometimes i think are these people really your friend or go by this section of the career and quran. Guest of North Carolina as well. The concept that you were referring to is rarely a courtesy of the muslim haters to one to dictate that they are always lying and they will shaky with one hand but they have a dagger in the other hand. There actually is no passage that teaches this. This comes from the statement of the profit that the profit commented on that refers to the classical explanation that if you fear bodily harm or death because you believe in god in your log to do not you believe in god. This is what kristiansand jewish and muslim said when people were persecuting each other when they would force the christians the Christian Evans denied their faith with the romans were persecuting they denied their fate or wed peter denied christ so that is the traditional classical understanding to deny your faith. In the operational context we call denial and deception that he does not tell people who he is or what he is up to. There are varying levels but the idea that operationally people who were up to no good will offer rationalize that concept that i now i can deny my faith but ignoring that it says if you feel your life is in danger. You just cannot go around and lie to people so people of use that. But i would say was i doing that when i was telling people i was one of them and i wasnt but i was trying to stop them . That was of level of denial and deception. The result whole section. Host a little bit about your book with your history after your mindset you go back to canada to work with the canadian government to a lookout for those that could be radical. Ted you give a short history guest after i was radicalized in 1995 that mr. The 9 11 attacks. Are will be honest i initially celebrated the 9 11 attacks but as the day went on in the offense started to manifest i thought something is not right about this. I get combat to inspect airplanes into a building and innocent people so went to syria and steady dash i got out of the mindset of realize how bad was and they came back to thousand four and that school that i referred to earlier in my comments someone was arrested in 2004 the first week i was back from syria and he was a kid who sat next to me at the school i approached the hidden the Security Service to give the character reference for the family weber interested to talk to me and they put to read a prospect wedgie be willing to work for us as an undercover operative . You tell us who you think is a threat or who isnt based on your knowledge of the religion in your ability to interact with them. So i accepted and did that for a year and a half with several infiltration and operations i did some things online most on the ground and later 20051 of those cases came up for prosecution, i was given the option either you walk away were you follow through and you will be in court given testimony your cover will be blown but i thought this does the right bank i will follow through is a lie was exposed i gave testimony and i faced a lot of backlash in was ostracized people thought this was a set up a and there is a lot of mistrust with federal agencies and the Muslim Community and you can see from the case that just happened there is no trust there is a severe lack of trust. I have a june navigate in that space in that same time i got a masters degree so i have come from them whole perspective of then there done that to operational lies so i do still consults with the government but i take the. Islamic approach and violent antiterrorist approach. Host ohio good morning caller god bless america. There is no country like United States and i am a libertarian. Next to my friend i was born and raised in syria. He should be fine with jihad is struggling to put the bread on the table. And the lesson is to fight for survival. The late bob novak and pat buchanan said on crossfire now the soviet union is gone they will look for a new enemy so vague set of the muslim world that egypt is guilty. Number for turkey is rising like terminally light like germany. They dont want that in the middle east bay are hypocrite. I was born muslim and diagnostic. But that is bad and folder. With the freedom of expression the United States is the best country in the road because of George Washington and his companion. I do believe in god and muhammed and jesus but my profit George Washington to do is me rights. Host we have to let him reply. It is a good sentiment the u. S. Constitution is a great document to thank you are in competition with the canadian one. [laughter] good morning. With the understanding with the Quran A Muslim should not fight against those who do not fight against you to not harm the elderly i understand the justification so how could they even was that to let somebody mislead them . To have a meth lab but she did not support those kinds of things and to celebrate 9 11. You could consider read the apostate. And 9 11 was one of the main ones in there are other things in the religion and have a problem with there is a lot of ignorance. We dont have any camels. There are things i did not agree with so what is your response to . That is a good question. Is based off of the example of muslim only because of the religion itself and it pains me of complete ignorance of 1,400 years ago and it would make no sense to mention in the internet for crawdad is the life that they live and to think we need to replicate society to say that god has frozen in divine wisdom. So i a understand why people think the way they think is important to understand the real islam. Host how do you talk to your children about your experience and issues that people might try to influence . I am very open with my children i have had this conversation of while ago i have five children. My oldest is 15 and my aunt is to is seven and i am putting them through that you they are an army cadets i raising them with the value of duty with the religious understanding that i used to be a government agent and i stopped them from doing bad things. But as the oppressor and to be the oppressed but what do you mean support them . To stop from the oppression. I dont apologize that terrorism is against the religion and is ruining is from. And i like to think they appreciate that. Host today attend today attend the madrassa . No. I am there madrassa the kit. Caller i appreciate your comments i am 60 years old i became a muslim and 40. Listing to everything that you have said today that has done them a great service. Thank you so much. Guest thank you very much. Host from new york a good morning. Caller i really enjoy your guest this morning. How do your parents field . Thank you. Guest i laughed because my 13 yearold says to me you lost your virginity is that so . It was the most awkward moment for me so my parents have read the book and i was brutally honest. Just to lay everything out there. But once upon a time when parents wanted me to be religious then i got to religious they did not like that but now they are happy and proud i have come full circle and i am happy about that. It is good. Host because of your mind set with the government do you feel you your life for family are threatened . Guest once said in a while from the keyboard commandos the teenagers living in their mothers basement. I know there are people who see what we are up to on line and it is possible that they could try to make a move that some point. I hope it will continue that way but i understand it is say risky area. I have faith in god and take precautions as much as possible. Host dallas texas. Caller good morning. I have a question of muhammed standing in the desert as the spirit came to him that his people was starving. To pick up the sword so he attacked the jews at the time for food. What is the difference between him going down the street i want to that television so i will take it. Guest i do not recognize that account i do not know where that came from. The the profit was meditating in a cave the Angel Gabriel said read it he said i cannot. So there was not one to pick up the sword to attack the jews. Host good morning you were on with our guest. Caller i would like to give a comment. I am 86 years old and we have a religion in the United States will have christians and tuition methodist in doesnt seem like they take up the guns and swords to each other. That were living in a communist state right now. To eventually rules of world the. Brothers gives them money to buy as president. So we were within half an inch to have a dictator and our government every realized everything was going the wrong way. Now they have suppressed our voting and the democrats are on the low side but it is all about money and oil so that is the thought the fight going on in our country. Host now maryland go ahead. Caller the white man will speak with a forked tongue. How you deal with the hypocrisy of the freedom of speech to draw cartoons of the profit but if you as a community with said shoes killing jesus that is a historical fact would that be free speech antisemitic . Eightyone you have to identify to encourage people to internalize the values that not apply equally across the board. So if you really want people that i recognize timmins will make mistakes to realize those ideals and where i can speak out against it and identify it. Host the last call from maryland. Caller i have a quick comment. After 9 11 i realized i knew absolutely nothing about islam. Four years ago i passed my local mosque there was the big billboard that said issam when no one for the non muslims a couple friends and i took the class and i learned so much to distill a lot of myths we had speakers from the Islamic Center come out and speak so what comment is we need a lot of activities going on to meet one another. Iran for the guest to explain the term that means our law. We had a speaker talk about isis that theyre not true the muslims but these outlaws and can you explain that . Guest this is fantastic this is the best question because the activity is important i think should be a pillar to counter a street resound. Because of the abraham it is very important to do that. A common doctrinal point the second point the khawaraj a were rebels in the most disparaging manner. There is no other group of people that were disparaged by the profits they were rebels to declare others as non muslims so would justify violence upon them to kill them and rape them and that is what basis does now. So to declare them as the infidel or the apostate to make war on anyone for any reason. Said they refer to them does the dog of health under heaven and earth wherever you find them, kill them. These kind of groups in the worst manner possible but when people say isis is king of career and the quran they say they will pray because they will falsified the meaning of the quran. Host echo author of undercover jihadi mubin shaikh. Mr. Shaikh, a thank you for your time today. I have a number of bullocks defers talks about Nuclear Terrorism and the aftermath i serve on the Armed Services committee and also the threat beecher read a book like this we hear what we are facing in this world of ours. In addition i am fascinated how things are made. So the best American Science talks about how the things are made and set up made perfectly for the Attention Span and last but not least i would be tortured if i did not is the book by a brother paolo fundamentally how people can make changes so now i can tell my mom i read the book