[captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and visit ncicap. Org] good morning, welcome tim flexing your fellow here who focuses on northeast asia economics and technology issues. Thank you for going yesterday for our important event titled furthering u. S. Japan collaboration on Communication Security. Communications is essential to our modern economies as the demand for flow continues to increase. There are, of course, a lot of concerns about the diversity of Telecommunications Infrastructure whether it is undersea cables, satellites, various technologies such as open ram and the security, c security throughout these systems. Weve pulled together an excellent panel today to talk about this. Folks from both the u. S. And japan who are experts in this field. Diverse expertise in this field i should say, coming from various different agencies and organizations. But we will do is i will give brief introductions and then allow them to share their wisdom. Afterwards we w questions and answers from the audience. I encourage everyone to think about what they would like to ask now. And that will be it. Have the Deputy Director general for International Economic affairs in the Global Strategy Bureau of japans ministry of internal affairs and communications. Thank you for organizing our get together today. These are what japan and the u. S. Have been working together, should continue to do so, and i am pleased to share my perspective today. In the world we live in today i. T. Technology is indispensable and pervasive in our life. Infr Communications Networks play a crucial role as the foundation of our social and economic becoming so to speak the basis of the nations existence. The sophistication sophistication of our i. T. Infrastructure and the widespread use of Digital Services have led to anncrease of dataflow. If data flows beyond national borders, the distribution d four point seven times in 2017 and 2021. The Rapid Development of Ai Technology in recent years is expected to further increase traffic. This demonstrates how important the i. T. Sector is and the importance of international collaboration. We believe two points are important for international telecommunications. First is building secure robust i. T. Ecosystems including promoting trustworthy entities. The second is strengthening the Global Connectivity through deploying networks. When we talk about i. T. Technology i will particularly focus on 5g and other important infrastructure such as submarine cables and the nonterrestrial network. Abbreviationwith 5g network we understand openness and interoperability essential. In particular, the network, open radio ac network open lan, enables building mobile networks by combining equipment from various vendors, leading to stable procurement and cost redu legacy system l. A. And is proprietary where a single vendor proprietary radio hardware for it, software and interfaces allowing the mobile network to function. R they can construct networks based on their perspective applications. Often interruptible aperture can provide more vendor options and brings more competitive and diverse supply chains. In terms of the security aspect, quad Security Networks last year, it explains that the ty technologies, account for only 4 of the entire system. It also made it clear that those risks can be mitigated to hrough appropriate measures such as following the checklist attached. In terms of energy estimates suggest open l. A. And will reduce Energy Consumption by a maximum of 50 . It is good that we have been observing adoption of 4g and 5g commercial network in japan, and the u. K. , germany and in the United States. To further promote open we see opportunities for bilateral cooperation between japan and the u. S. In supporting deployment in countries and in continuing to promote the importance of openness and interoperability. We have collaborated on many occasions, to interagency cooperation and the government between cooperation. The future of i. T. Infrastructure is not limited to terrestrial mobile communications. We need we need to show a Network Vision for beyond 5g 6g, which is not only extension of 5g. Last year the g7 Technology Ministry meeting released the vision for future networking beyond the 5g, 6g era. Tech leaders agreed Network Connectivity should be enhanced through developing and deploying multilateral networks with terrestrial networks such as submarine cables and nonterrestrial networks, such as low orbit satellite analtitude platform station. They also recognized the networks. It is said that submarine cables account for 99 of National International communications and are very important for ensuring improved digital connectivity. It is necessary to secure safe routes for submarine cables and diversity of redundancy and promote cable installation. Maintenance and operations. If we believe Network Coverage of threedimensional ntn, we will become crucially infrastructure. An example includes u. S. , japan, eight other countries with the st months joint statement between those principals for 6g and advances standardization of 6g technology. Along with principles including satellite. Happ is a mountain based platform that floats in the stratosphere. It offers low latency with 200 kilometer in diameter. At a low cost than satellite connections. 5g and future beyond 5g, 6g, 7g services can also be provided through happs. Companies in japan successfully using commercially available smart phone terminals. A satellite constellation where is a system in which a number of satellites are launched in low earth orbit o unison to enable highspeed large Capacity Communications via satellite. In the future, direct communications with satellites by ground terminals such as smartphones using cell phone frequencies is expected to become a reality. Generally, over this year, we have just started the production the introduction of satellites and communications in japan. We believe that the direct communication with satellites will contribute to Network Resilience with multilayer and wide area coverage. It can also provide a means of communication in times ofemergencies such as building such as during natural disasters. To maintain a free and open cyberspace it is essential to ensure the safety and resilience of our infrastructure. But technology is evolving at an increasing pace, so in order to keep up with this evolution, goportant to work closely with industry, academia, society and institutes. Initially it will remain committed to International Cooperation. Thank you for your kind attention. Thank you, those were excellent remarks. Yeah, it really is enduring how much work the u. S. And japan have been doing in ict, and for you mentioned the joint statement endorsing principles for 6g. Theres recently a new dialog on Digital Economy between the United States and japan. Perhaps our next speaker, mr. Conan can enlighten us from his perspective. Institute and Riley Walters for giving us an opportunity to underscore the nature of collaboration between japan and the United States on Digital Economy issues. I word like to publicly acknowledge the leaders on common issues without his leadership we would not be able to advance as rapidly as we have and Work Together on both policy and programs. I think that is because we share a common vision devoted that the devoted to the notion that the internet should be open, reliable, secure and interoperable. And thats built on a foundationhree elements in the policy set that describes our bilateral Work Together. The first of those is infrastructure supply. By that, i mean sourcing and equipment and code from countries that have independent judiciary, due process procedures, effective institutions, that allow one to have their privacy protected that allow businesses to have their intellectual property protected and allow states to have their national securityotected as a consequence of using those networks. I also want to add that its the countrys institutions, not the company involved, not the product line, that defines trusted supply as we see it. The second aspect of our policy set was eloquently described and that is vendor diversity that is the disaggregation of the Radio Access Network among various vendors of code an because we knowustry engineers often tell us in our conversations that we will see increased virtualization of the Radio Access Network starting now. So we will be moving away from hardware to softwarebased systems increasingly. The vendor diversity has multiple advantages, in addition to those underlined, there is the Economic Development and growth that occurs when you have more innovation provided by small medium and Large Businesses in the ecosystem. There is increased price competition because more than one supplier is meeting your Radio Access Network beads. That prevents vendor lockin, so you can update and innovate over the period of the system, usually 7 to 10 depreciation period. Youre not waiting for the end of life to do an update. This will become increasingly important as we approach the beyond 5g, 5g policy and engineering set. The third pillar is an extension across the ict ecosystem. Its a holistic approach to trusted supply to involve not only wireless but also cables both undersea and terrestrial. Data centers and Cloud Services and satellite systems, go, leo. Why . It r if the data centers that store our information are also not secured. If the submarine cables, by industry estimates carrying as much as 99 of our information internationally are not also secured, and if the leo and geo satellites that receive and send signals are not secure. Its a matter of logic. We have an advantage by the simple and plain fact that matching our bilateral cooperation between the u. S. And japan is a very rich binational and thats commercial. I give to you, for example, and this is just one of many theres a problem called orex which involves 10 major u. S. Companies providing code and equipment to deployments with ntk docomo, announced with nec on february 26th of this year, a joint venture that will be extended globally. So we will soon see more global footprint to this Work Together. Id like to give you two examples of our collaboration. One is the open lan economy in manila which has trained upwards of a thousand engineers and the next generation of leaders in the field in the open approach to technology. The notion is we shouldnt just be focused epent, but the skill needed like the phillipines to engage producttively in this infrastructure. Second, pleased tothat the bureau of cyber space and digital policy from which i hail is thanks to congress wisdom has been resourced to fund to provide our partners and allies access to this technology. We have the digital connectivity and cybersecurity program. And we have roughly 50 of the chips act funds devoted to itc infrastructure issues, upwards of 50 million a year for the next five years. That has allowed us to take our policy set and work constructively with partners around the globe. We have had ict secure road shows in poland, india, south africa and most recently vietnam. And we have had intimate involvement of both japanese policymakers and industry in those engagement. That has made a crucial difference because voices in the they were hood in places like vietnam are providing a window into the future and opportunities that exist today. Riley made a reference to the dialogue live Digital Economy issues which we enjoy with japan. Let me turn briefly to that and give you a sense of some of the positive outcomes from our most recent dia includes an existing u. S. Japan Global DigitalTechnology Partnership to advance our collaborative Work Together on secure telecommunications and biodiversity. We have the pleasure of sharing ej chairing that particular mechanism on at least a quarterly basis. Second is a desire to support trusted deployment of ict infrastructure in third countries, especially 5g and open ran as well as undersea doing together in the philippines and under the quad and the pacific country ofciary on f of that work with the expected open ran field deployment further on this calendar year. Further work is under consideration for undersea cables and ongoing efforts on the deployment of 5g and open ran systems. Next in the dialogue agreement on promotingupport for responsible Ai Governance including through the hiroshima ai process led by japan so ably during the 2023 g7 presidency and that italy is currently advancing further at the g7 ministerial actually just last week. Japan and the United States also concurred on the importance of protecting data and privacy, including by expanding the adoption of crossborder rules or cbpr, to authorize operational certification of companies globally. We also concurred in our desire shared to leverage the International Communication unions and our respective japanese and u. S. Leadership in that body to build coalitions and advance common interest. The world telecommunication system will be meeting in delhi later in the year. Our work on those issues is ongoing. We worked to expand cybersecurity Capacity Building with partner countries seeking that type of assistance. The collaboration must be close. Finally well support digit3al freedoms, including the use of practices such as misinformation, disinformation commercial spyware and Online Harassment that inhibit our freedoms. With that ill close and pass it back to riley. Thank you, that was wonderful. You mentioned a lot about the efforts and collaboration of the u. S. And japan in areas, in regions throughout Southeast Asia, in countries, specifically the philippines, vietnam, you mentioned palou and so i think perhaps our third speaker might be the best to continue on that international markets. Of course, japan bank for International Cooperation works closely with Americas Development finance cooperation to establish investments in the infrastructure abroad and so please, tell us a little more about your work and what you all are doing in the space specifically on telecommunications security. Thank you, riley. I am a senior representative of japan International Cooperation, washington d. C. Office. Some of you may know it is the policybased financial institution, and what you see on d. C. Our mandate is to support japanese private industry and all over the world. Also, i would say that our financial operation truly allied with japanese government policy. We will support Japanese Industries and achieve the japanese government policy by way of also, we have posted our financial toolkit. Also, we have postedabout cooperating partners like the United States and most remarkable cooperation with the u. S. Counterpart. With we signed understanding in 201 i remember and we expanded cooperation gradually and ict is definitely the area of cooperation. But in addition to that i would have good relationships with other u. S. Public institutions like usaid. Both institutions have the sanctions of the cities so which are in various stages. When it comes to ict sector, i like to explain two examples at this moment. The first is the submarine cable support. Some of you may know, 99 of communications are done by a submarine cable. The Japanese Company nec is one of the leading companies in this space. This is a good combination of our finance and plans from the United States and elsewhere that good place for blended finance. And second example is our supporting to the state of businesses. Ntt is the worlds leading company of beta testening the world. We are very active in supporting Data Center Businesses globally. We would like to expand our cooperation with ntt as much as possible. Next, like to touch upon the recent update about the mandate. Diet amended the law that regulated what we can do. Last april they amended to the jgb law, and as a result of the now unable to support Japanese Companies for their subsidiaries, but the local companies as well. As long its essential for businesses. For instance, if the japanese he key goods in some services to locals in carriers in the indopacific region we are now able to support those. Build diplomatic relationships abroad. So, with this were going to open it up for questions from the audience. If you have any questions, please raise your hand, a mic yourself and ask your question. Try to be as suscinct as possible. I am going to take the moderators privilege to ask the first question. The ict can be very technical sometimes. Not everyone is computer savvy. I would say maybe even fewer people are actually finance savvy. We talked about blended finance. Maybe we can just dumb it downal quick. Weve already given a very general explanation of the importance of communications to infrastructure. The need for it to be trusted and secure so that Everyday Americans and japanese can benefit from what they can access. And so, maybe, i dont know how to ask this actually, but is there a way that we can explain so that people understand that this relationship is very important its very technical, it is very advanced in the termi but whats the simpler way that we can describe the importance of this sector and this work for the american and japanese audience . Mark, why dont we start with you . I have two answers. Its easy for me to dumb it down because the question is, do you wa your in corporation or Small Business or whether its your bank account or your health data, do you want that information to be compelled to be shared with state intelligence agencies . If the answer is no, then you policy set of trustworthy supply. Going back to this question of are the institutions in place from the source country are you, to allow you the transparency of knowing when the state wants your data. There are cases in the United States and scandanavian countries, and examples throughout in japan where citizens are informed upon any kind of request like that. That is the simple way of deon the other side of that coin diplomacy in this field, particularly in this field because of the technology involved and the fact that that technology is advancing on almost a daily basis is a team sport. He referenced close collaboration with industry. Without that understanding from engineers about what is available we would be less effective in our advocacy. Likewise with think tanks, its incumbent to have those relationships so we understand changes as they come about. I dont know if you have any thoughts on this. Thank you. I would like to make reference from the different viewpoint. We are enjoying the generative r year was a good year for generative ai so to speak. However the area we are focusing on is the telecommunications sector. Generative ai has some ways with some relationships with telecommunications of course. , for example, generative ai will give us the opportunity to make the telecommunication Infrastructure Management by way of automation or machine learning. There are different operations can do. Theyre very efficient management or network control, it can. Such kind of very close things such as generative ai have something to do with the communications sections. We have a feeling that all the state of the Art Technology can something to our doing. The u. S. And japan, the governmen industry are focusing on. Ai is just so rapidly advancing. Who knows where it will be in six months from now, compared to where it was just last year. Last year there was no chatgpt. There was last year. Who knows in the way generative ai can transform not just our daily lives, but the communications and the structure that underpins and connects all of this as well. Let me take a different perspective then. We have about how do we discuss these issues domestically . But as an organization that deals internationally, how do you make the argument internationally that those countries in particular needu. Japanese and australian or other trusted vendors technologies in the face of, you know, pretty strong competition, whether it is through diplomacy or even from a finance point of view . So, firstly, i would like to emphasize that the importance of the multilateral corporation is still important when we reach out to third countries. If myself go to the host country its the opinion. But when it comes to create the one voice with likeminded personnel, it would be more powerful. When we try to reach out third countries, we always create a nice group, likeminded personnel and explain our opinion. I would say thats the point. If possible, we can show some demonstrations so that would be more powerful. In this respect, he mentionedthe usaid overland academy. That is a good showcase how to describe and how to show our presence to the third countries. Second point i would like to mention is that companies companies, now, they all recognize the importance of cybersecurity as the issue of esg. Everybody knows about the esg when it comes to climate issue or Something Like that but how to defend ourselves from analysis attack or misinformation and disinformation, those are the issues of the governance. If the company has denied internal system of esg, the corporate value will increase. On the other hand if they fail a to defend, their corporate prosperity will decline. This is now the discussion of esg. That discuion is understandable for private businesses. Its a difficult decision and a side or b side. This is esg discussion to maximize corporate value. That would be the argument where we reach out to private citizens. Thats my impression. I think another way to kind of describe it, you mentioned at the end there, sort of cyber hygiene as a matter of corporatee. Whether companies are considering get hacked what kind of effect would that have on their business . Certainly important. Any questions from the audience here . Well go right here. Hi, im Craig Singleton for the foundation for defense of democracies where we lead our china program. Problematic and sanctioned Companies Like huawei are actor contributors to the oran alliance that exists. When asked foundation and oran alliance are contributing to the software and we talk about it as potentially a way to break the stranglehold on 5g and 6g. Should the u. S. And japan be collaborating with Linux Foundation when while way, China Telecom and uni com are key the policies that are described to you earlier, sir, remember the foundation, trustedased upon independent judiciary and due process procedures. Ok . So while linux may be contributing, the fundamental issue, is it trust supplotosan has been part of that encouragement to get jape, u. S. , korean, other Industries Indian involved in that cooperation, and specifically for the standardsetting issues that go on in International Commercial collaboration through the bodies designed for that purpose. Is dominance by one party, then the outcomes will not reflect the broader international communitys needs. Your question. First is the specific policy set, second is the involvement of industry and other voices Going Forward in sta setting bodies. At i have is since were on the topic of cybersecurity theres a lot of discussion at least within the United States, i dont know how far this discussion goes in japan, but the idea of building a network on zero trust, in fact. Establishing certain standards that ensure that any sort of provider or procurement ofgies within the United States are developed in the knowing that eventually youre going to get hacked, you know . Cyber incidents these days, its not a matter of if, its a matter of when, so eventually your things will be breached. I actually had a personal cyber incident last week. So, you know, the discussion on the digital dialog on economy and other discussions on ict touch on this matter . Does it touch on building a zero trust network and of course, how the u. S. And japan can build on that as already trusted suppliers to each other . I dont know if okamoto, if you have any thoughts . Thank you. Regarding the introduction of the 5g open lan which is very close relation to the Cyber Security zero trust that you mentioned. Normally for example, in the early developing countries earlier, they were operated the equipment with china or the so those countries cannot easily change the network content, but probably, but we, the japan, u. S. , have the relationship to promoting the introduction of 5g open ran within countries such as latin america. We are doing the cochairing kind of roundtablean countries visavis mobile operators. They have some kind of enlightenment of the importance and goodness of the introduction of 5g open lan. Such kinds of cooperation is going on and thats accrued with such kindness. I think it was you who mentioned earlier, open ran has low inst of Cyber Incidents you said 4 is that what you mentioned . As we look to develop better Cyber Technical infrastructure definitely investing in open ran and other areas that can help develop that. Its definitely important. You mentioned the cost competitiveness issue, of course. Thats a big issue across all ict and the theory is that open ran can international finance, then, how much does open ran play into the discussions when youre talking . Youre looking abroad. Undersea cable is very important given that it does necessitate a lot of the International Flow of data, but incountry, how much does it normally come up in your discussion . Oh, yes, i think recentlye strong interest in introducing that in the future because of the costissue and also avoiding the situations and Security Issues as well. When we talk about the countries in the region, they show some about that. And when it comes to cost discussion, we sometimes got the response from the government that it is truly an inexpensive solution or Something Like that. The countries tends to focus just on the cost of installation. But we have to think about the overall cost of operation including the operation in the maintenance spac[le, it will be 20 years or 25 years discussion, so we always persuade the host government that please, consider the life cycle costs, life cycle costs. So do not focus too much on just initial cost. So this is an important point. What japan and the United States can explain to especially in grouping do not have enough experiences in longterm life infrastructure projects, so, like you see sometimes visit the government and the developing countrys businesses and explain the importance of life cycle cost and how to achieve the value for make investments and get the value as much as possible. And so this is what we are doing. I just want to piggyback on those insightful comments, bothional and capital costs. Our advocacy with third countries is not a one size fits all proposition. Ip protection issues and personal data privacy issues ive referenced and reinforced by others on this panel. There are certain instances where a much more nuanced specific conversation can be add had and ill give you one example. In vietnam, a mobile operator in countries throughout Southeast Asia, in latin america and north africa. The aspiration of viatel is to offer alongside their operations of mobile networks, equipment. So, they are forming alliances with japanese and u. S. Companies for the possibility of offering an open ran solution globally. And having Manufacturing Base in vietnam to support that enterprise. Theyre adding a business line. Theyre building Economic Development locally and benefitting from innovation from so, again, its a specific kind of arrangement that we can offer in certain countries. India is another example where local talent is able to produce the innovations necessary not only to the largest market in the world, but also globally. And so, the conversation changes country to country depending on local circumstances. I do want to kind of ask more about that, because i think in the grander discussion around ict, it really it can sometimes be seen within the context of this is just another continuation of u. S. China rivalry in the international space, right . So the u. S. Trying to find partners and allies to work and compete with huawei, which is unfairly supported by its own government. Its under cutting vendors and suppliers all around the world. Some countries, i think more hesitant to, of course, build that relationship with such an untrusty vendor, but others who see the cost competitiveness of their products and, you know throw caution to the wind, i guess you could say. When we talk about the competition with china, we talk about sometimes we talk about with the regional context, so, Southeast Asia being a particular focus given the proximity to put japan, china, of course, a lot of the u. S. Interest in the region. Latin america, africa, even europe to a certain extent. And of course, mark, as you mentioned, it is not onesizefitsall for each country. Each country has their own diplomatic, Economic Security and other interests. And so, i do wonder how do we think about Going Forward in this partnership between the United States an look to Different Countries to partner with. India and vietnam, i think, are excellent examples. India has been for a while now sort of seen as some of the potential scale as a competitor to china. It is a large economy, a lot of people, a lot of potential consumers, vietnam, of course, emerging itc space in Southeast Asia along with i would say malaysia, indonesia. So how do we think about, this is for all three of the panelists whoever wants to attack it first. Find the Third Partners . Is it waiting for them to come to us or do we go to them with our arguments around safety security, trust, finding new emerging technology . Me . Yeah, go ahead. So would like to expand our cooperation with the third parties in addition to the United States and japan. Depending on the host government situations. For instance, in Pacific Island countries, australia h very Good Progress and capabilities to support those island countries. So japan, u. S. , have cooperation that is very natural and good cooperation in that area. And when it comes to india we would like to collaborate with korea, actually. This much, the biggest india think tank hosted the event, National Dialog in tokyo. By taking that opportunity with u. S. And korea tict Technical Cooperation with india, in india. So, india and japans companies and the u. S. Also have like this and korea also have like this and so we changed the collaboration with Third Partners. So thats our next step and also, the last part mentioned is important. So we should go first. Wait does not work. Wait and see does notk. We should go there and talk and discuss with the government or the businesses and explore and create the next ict businesses mainly in that region and globally, yeah. Two observations on the competition question is an essential one. The first is my office, rbo, we spent a heck of a lot of time wearing an erickson hat and a nokia tshirt. In many markets operators work with very tight margins. We associate what erickson and nokia offered with the supply. Theres no value for the United States in that regard. I can legitimately say in my engagement we believe the citizens of country x should be allowed the same protections of the United States in your network security. And that curried some favor, but we have to contend with the fact that there is a price delta in many markets. Significant subsidies are offered by the prc and thats very real. Its an extraordinary challenge and thats why the importance of the Development Finance corporation, xm and counterparts in japan and other countries is essential in this conversation. The second part of that, we know from conversations with some of the best engineers i that beyond 5g and development, 6g and beyond will be based on open architectures. And what were offing to our third party countries, is the opportunity to be the first movers in innovation. Vietnam is an example. Thats why the philippines, singapore are interested. Increasingly were seeing our european par significantly with deployments scheduled. By vodafone in spain and germany. 170,000 sites. I dont know if you have thank you. The cooperation between the u. S. And japan is based on the cooperation in the third country and the cooperation within the multilateral, and bilateral that we have. And the first cooperation for the countries, they know its expressed in many ways, for example. The philippines, we are doing Capacity Building things within the philippines. For example, the academy kind of things which is based on the based on the kind of things which is remotely accessed from the persons within the philippine areas. For example. And also, the second one is ational folden if we can achieve g7 which would probably open the day before were promoting the openness within the network constructions. Not only 5g but also the cables and the kind of the whole three dimensional networking and not only the cable, but also the space areas, for example. And also the bilateral cooperation we had with gdpc Global Digital connectivity pattern with the u. S. And japan and we have ourselves have the consultation on a quarterly basis. So, such kind of the things very tilayered cooperation we are hoping to. Yeah, i think as this event has definitely highlightedthere is a lot of very different technical and somewhat complicated areas for the United States and japan to worry about, but i think that our collaboration and cooperation is moving successfully, moving smoothly. I think were progressing better than i think weve ever been. So its really endearing to see the relationship of the United States and japan move on, not just Communication Security , which is important, but broader things, internationally collaborating on diplomatic issues as well. Its been really great hearing from the three of you and of course, your diverse areas of expertise. I hope we can have you all back here again either at a public or private session sometime, but lets give a round of applause for the group and thank you again for coming out to Hudson Institute today. Thank you. [applause] cspan. Your unfiltered view of government for 45 years and counting. Just two weeks ago in the midst of a terrible tragedy on the potomac, we saw again theit of american heroism getting rescue workers to save Crash Victims from icy waters and young Government Employees who when he saw a woman loses grip on the helicopter line, dived into the water and dragged her to safety. [applause] cspan. Powered by cable. Tuesday on cspan, the houses back at noon eastern for general speeches followed by legislative business. Membe considering several Foreign Policy related bills including legislation to block the sale of americans personal data to foreign adversa cspan two, Bank Executives and former financial regulators discuss the Banking System in washington d. C. Followed by a conversation on Cyber Security with mark warner around noon. At 3 00, the Senate Returns to consider the nomination of Nicole Bernard to be a judge on the Fourth Circuit court of appeals. A final vote is expected at 5 30. On cspan three mark milley and Kenneth Mckenzie testify on the u. 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