Transcripts For CSPAN After 20240704

I am a long time fan. Feel like this is a real first time caller. Longtime listener situation. You know, before we hop in, i just want to say i have this really great Business Opportunity for you that i think youd be into. Joking, but thats kind of what brings us here today, sort of that that line that a lot of us hear from a lot of people in our lives who are into multi Level Marketing around the labs. And i guess since maybe a lot of people have never heard of mlm before or theyve heard of them and they dont know what they are to start out, just like to set the table. I wonder if you could just talk through a little bit. Like what youre talking about in your boo addressing here . What are we talking about . Sure. Well, were not addressing a market. Ill get to that. But we are talking about an lets took years to really try to distill down a definition, but mlm, if anybodys heard of them, they herbalife lately. The lulu ro because they g in a bunch of trouble for selling avon tupperwar mary kay, those kinds of companies are all implants and the way our work a person who owns the mlm and then theres like a line of recruits and then all those people recruit people and then all those people recruit people. And its supposed to kind of spread out and you earn money off of all the sales of the people underneath you. But what really happens is that the people on the bottom rung have to pay a fee to to get in and the system is designed sort of to fail, which means that the people paying to get in, very few of them stay in. But theres like an Endless Supply of people that want toote promise is really good. The promises are great. Like, if it was true, itd be awesome. I would do it, but the price is really good. So the people pay a couple bucks to order books, 500 bucks to their upline and that money gets distributed up to this shape. And then theygz quit because thy cant make any money. And then another set of people does the same thing. And thats how all mlm operate. Only 1 of participants make or dont lose money because 99 lose money trying an mlm. So its just a not. Its not or its a its a story. Its more a story than a business. Right. And and you said 99 of fail. So basically nobody makes money on this except for the people at the very bottom or the very top. Right. Right. And i think whats interesting to everyone knows, like the restaurant business, for example, is very hard to succeed. And i feel like Profit Margins are like a lot, 10 . And, you know, almost all of them shut down, too, but theyre at least its talked about that way. You know, if you were to tell someone, im going to start a restaurantow, like, good luck wy its talked about like, oh, i cant wait to go on your yacht. You know,■p when youve me 1,000,000, like, we dont tell each other and we dont the people in the organization dont tell each other how impossible it is. And thats kind of what were trying to change. So i guess i want to get to that, but i do want to back up a little bit to what got you into this in the first place. Like, i think we have similar backgrounds. Im also from the midwest and i grew up around mary kay and avon and like to be honest, i didnt realize until even five years ago that those were mlms. Like why . I was just so sorry, but why . Why talk about this . Why delve into this . Why look at this . Story is that our producer at stitcher years ago called me to see if i wanted to produce a show about im alums, kind of knowing im from the midwest and all that. And i kept her on the phone for like an hour just regaling her with stories about my grandma and stuff. And then they were like, why dont you just make this show . So that i did and became even more obsessed than i already was with that world. And it kind of took off from there. Mm hmm. And i know, i mean, i guess like. This later, but are they always bad . Are they always. Yeah, i guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Ithink that theres any kind of Silver Lining where people who do feel like, okay, whatever, like they my leggings suck, selling them r i had my mary kay parties. Do you feel like theres any kind of redeeming quality here . Definitely. There is a social aspect to all of them thats really important for a lot of people. Again, my problem with it would be, yes, you can get a lot of social interaction out of it. You can get accolades, kids, you get to go on vacations. You dont have to be around your kids 24 seven and all of this stuff is great. It would be better if it were sold as a club or kind of. I always think of beauty pageants like, you know, in a beauty pageant, your chance of winning is like almost nothing and you pay a lot of money to be in it. But it or like, you know, to kind of dress up and things like that. And if it were marketed that way again, i wouldnt have a problem. But if think that the very structure of this business is bad and i dont think theres at trust that ane who has a real product couldnt sell it for more in the marketplace. If its a good, real product, why do you he keep it behind closed doors . Why does it have to be, you know, door to door sales in this day and age, like that . It doesnt it doesnt make sense unless you understand that the money isnt really coming from that right . Yeah, that yeah. In the book, there is one section, i think, on sex toys, of all things that a woman who is selling them. And then i remember being like, oh, you could get this a lot cheaper a place. And so people dont even realie buying things that are enormous. Youre selling things or buying, i guess both an enormous markup. Or you can get whatever the product is at cvs or somewhere else for a lot cheaper. Its funny, you just said buying or selling. Its both. You are right. Youre the same person who is selling and also buying. So, for example, that that story was about a woman who worked at pure romance, which is like an adult accessories. They call it bedroom aesany andd by her up line to stock a bunch of stuff like she wanted to get e smallest starter package a was like talked into sending tons and tons more to make sure she had everything available for samples. She didnt really sell very much her own customer for the most part, right, because shes just trying to keep her inventory stocked up with the new products and companies also do this thing where they like, discontinue stuff and then reintroduce stuff over and over again. So youre if you in your trunk that youre going to take around a party, a lot of times you have to check to make sure theres even available. And then theyll be replaced by Something Else that you have to put in your trunk. But yeah, she she lost a ton of money doing this. And and that. The number of ways that moms keep you in and spending money like that are just countless. I mean, its. I could go in. I mean, theres like all kinds of stuff that they sell to you, like selfhelp and conventions and things like that. But yeah, i think i got off track. But no. Okay. I guess. And i just before we have a little bit more into the book, can you just kind of talk me through like what the life cycle is for most people into the, the friend approach of you and says, i have an idea or i have a Business Opportunity. Ive been selling earrings, essential oils, whatever. What happenswhile. There are two different types of people, one types, as this sounds like a money loser and so no, thank you, im not going to do it. And then usually your friendships over for a little while because theyre focused on getting allriends. And this company. The other one is some people see the 1 and are like, thats me. Im i can do that. Or they believe so much in the dream and they have so much hope that they want it to be true that you can do, you know, have noer you nt need an education, you dont get any sales experience. You dont even need a phone, etc. To do this work. And you can become a millionaire. There are people who buy into that right away, and i understand why they do so. Those folks who do get in usually leave kind of quickly within it then but a bunch of things happen in that six months that can keep you in for a very long time. And some of them arespending mor own money to rank up to like to to get higher in the ranks so you can earn a little more commission. People will spend their own money to do tt. And then you come to a place where youre you run into these like, logical fallacies that all of usng sunk costs is a big one. So like you spend 10,000, are you just going to quit like or should you keep trying for another year and not realizing that that trying for another year is going to cost you 20,00so it takes a while. I mean, the people that i spoke to that were really high up have been in most of these islands for ten years or something. And have still quit eventually. And i spoke to a guy from amway that estimated its over a ten year period. He lost 200,000. Oh, my goodness. Thats you didnt even realize for a lot of it. Or did he know . He didnt know. He felt he. No, he didnt, because, well, first of all, the bookkeeping is really dicey. It doesnt its not part of the training of any of these companies. So, you know, youre not youre not writing off your gas and your phone and all of this stuff which is necessary. And and kind of recognizing the cost of ju many hours are worki. And a lot of people i talked to would do their hours and go, oh, im making less than minimum wage. Like, what am i doing . And they do keep you know, they ke the compliments flowing. They keep the accolades flowing. They keep you get a small check. So the checks are coming in, but its not enoughzg to make up for all the money youre spending. And it is easier just to put the blinders on and go. Its got to work. One of these days. Otherwise, why would all these people that i really trust be involved in this . Like, i must be doing something wrong . Right. Well, and also kind of isnt the the mantra sometimes or the idea that youre not making money, youre not trying, you know, youre not trying hard, right . Your fault. Yes. Yes. Cagain, no ones being honest. So the man im talking about who lost 200,000, his up lines were telling him that, like the people above him were saying, thats really weird because im making tons of money. Its like so crazy that youre not making money. Mm. Truth is, they probably werent either, but its its the mythology of these organizations. So he he really did think, oh, bad at this and i need to train more. And he started buying all kinds of training materials from amway and just thinking more and more money into this thinking he was the problem. But when really the problem is they just sell boring. So thats like a regulas very,. So that doesnt even look that pretty. I did like im like because i feel l never seen amway in the wild and i did like ive never or we came here. Were like, what do they even sell . Ive never seen it, which is very weird. I feel like ive seen thotstuff. Its very telling. Its very its very telling, though, right . Like theyre one of the biggest in the world and youve never seen it anywhere. What does that tell you . Where is it . Its in a trunk or a garage. You know, if it really was that big of a company that couldnt sell at cvs and couldnt get into because its so special and one in five people, you know, they say one in five people has an amway product in their home. And i dont know, im from michigan and i dont even know people that have amway products. Its really strange. Its not its very much an inside, but nobody is seen it. And i just a way where are in them but different different day so i did want to obviously dive in a little b more into the book and the title on this is selling the dream, which obviously rers to the American Dream here. And you talk about in the book like there are these ideas of like limitless potential that, you know, anything can be achieved with optimism and willpower. And those are very quintessentially american ideas. What do you think about i mean, makes them and they they 6obviously are like a very multinational lot. What is american specific about them . Well, they were built on that philosophy. I mean, the men who started mlm were totally like capitalist, you know, rugged individualist who believed they were growing up in a meritocracy in the early 20th century. And did believe like, oh, and bootstrap thinking and that sort of thing. So its a chicken and the egg. Like where what came first . Well, the the hope and the dream came first. And then these people i dont cant tell you how intentional it was, but they exploited that. I mean, as we know. And so it it it taps into that thing that were all raised with still to this day, that this place is great, that anybody can make it if they try hard enough that, you know, again, were a meritocracy, that it doesnt matter where you come from or how much you have or dont have, like this is the land of opportunity. And people who you dont want to profiteer from that essentially can on it. And its its totally understandable that they would i mean, i dont think its understandable and i dont think that there could people but it its not that hard its not that hard to take a big group of of of hopeful people who feel like theyre exceptional who feel like they are different than the rest of the world. And in a special way and who feel like there is money to be had ou there just sitting around because like, look at donald trump. Well, what we know now is donald trump doesnt even have money. What do you. Bu5sfor while, like he was he ran in on my lamb and hes been a spokesperson for lambs and for a while people would look at him and i think secretly think like, well, hs a dance like and hes a billionaire. So when i can do it, you know, like and right. And hes telling me to do it hes saying that the mlm help you get there and i believe hes a bill know, because of the court cases, but also because he cant pay his 450 million fine, that guy doesnt have money just like the up to dont make any money. I think its, you know, its the kind of the same thing. But you have these sitting ducks in us and us regular people who have since kindergarten or early urban pledging allegiance to the flag and then talking about, you know, how what college were going to go to and what, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up as if like astronaut is even a possibility . A side note i found out that astronauts are actually just likeechanical en my way too oldt out. I thought they were i dont know what i thought they were, but they like, use wrenches and stuff. Ey like build things in s. And i was like, oh, i really i could have it announced or not. But, you know, we talk about that. You could do it. The skys the limit, basically. And, and i dont think thats a i dont think thats a bad attitude. So long as no ones taking advantage of it learned i learnd that about astronauts in this very moment. You have, you know, you did mention, you know, the men who founded a lot of these missions in the 20th century. And i think,now, obviously today i like is very much seen as women do emblems. I mean, we joke i joke that, you know, crypto is like emblems for boys. But yeah, right. But there are no limits for boys that are really close to crypto stuff, though i will say there are emblems for dudes that are all like finance, telecom, you know, things like boy stuff. Theres plenty of those. Yeah, but i mean it is a lot of it, especially in 20 centuries. Women selling perfume, essential oils, mary kay, avon, even tupperware with a woman named brownie. Why tupperware founded it. What are the gender dynamic here . Why, i mean, why could it if these guys are found in these companies, why couldnt they sell their stuff so well . The first answer is that it really was in the very beginning, a great idea to have women asbecause were talking aa time where it was around just after the Industrial Revolution and aroundwere big urban centerr the place, but at that time, most people were living in rural areas up until like a couple of decades into the 20th century. So people were living in rural areas and they were getting a lot of their products from door to door salesmen or, you know, like a stanley brush or, you know, Fuller Brush Company or stanley Home Products coming by your house. They went to my grandmas house. I remember that. And my fondly. But these were all itinerant dudes who maybe werent from your community and didnt like our milkman. I was growing up was from like saginaw, which is like an hour from my house. So i dont know anything ahim ot our house and had a key and walked in and put the milk inside. If we werent allowed you know. And so i think they early on, the founders of these companies thought, well, what if we had, like, ladies doing it . And then they thought, what if we hadhose ladies recruit their friends into doing it . And then you start to see this big group because its like 75 to 80 of all american participants are women. You start to look at this, and im going to sound like a broken record, but you start to look at them as a group. What do they have in mlm these days, right . Because we dont need to worry about door to door salesmen creeping people out or like going into strangers homes issue that were trying to solve with that now. Loans now. So what do they have in common now . They havedifficult economic pro. Their mothers, a lot of them stay at home moms. A lot of them christian. So their belief system is that they should be at home with their children. A lot of them are employed and dont make enough money, pay gap. Hello. So there is an opportunity to sell them this like dont you need extra money . I guess. Of course i need yes, i need 25. I need the 25 that my male coworkers getting. So i guess ill do it on my loan because i cant fix the system right. And im being serious about that. Like that is the thinking. Its like, how could i ever get ahead . How cod i ever leave my husband . How could i ever and weve done a lot of weve gone to these conferences and stuff where people will talk about the reason the monetary reason that they got into mlm is and a lot of times its just for fun, but a lot of times its really sad. Like a woman who needed to pay for her dads headstone. He hadnt had one for tkxhree years and she was working for three years in this make up mlm and didnt make enough money to buy a headstone in that much time. So thi as a group, women are vulnerable in that way. And its also true that other vulnerable groups are and, you , competing with women. Now to be like the big group of grandma. So you have a lot of migrants, you have a lot of people in developing countries or neo liberal societies that are kind of just beginning their capitalist experiment that we started a long time ago. And theyre perfect targets for these companies. Theres good idea for sales is also a really good idea for scams and uh. Right,■w, in 1920 you dont want a creepy guy in your house. Makes more sense if its a woman and better if its a woman whos yourmaybe now theyre not showing up at your house, but theyre showing up on your facebook feed on like facebook. Theyre in your lives. Yeah. Or your church or whatever. But these the recruitment process requires a Large Social Network and trust. So, you know, trust the story that im telling you because its not true. The recruitment has gotten easier, at least at least recently because of social dia. So in the last like ten, 20 years, its been easier to recruit people outside of your community. But before that, women had these very, very Strong Social networks that would happen in the daytime when their husbands were home. You know, the neighbor lady, your siste, your aunts, your grandma, and2hmily, was one person joins. Then the next person joins and the next person joins in. And then all of a sudden, everybody sellingyou know, anda literally what happens over and over again in my family. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right now, the popular thing in like was no go. I was saying the one in my the one in my neighborhood, its really taking off right now is like theres a couple of Different Companies that sell those nail stickers, like the nail polish stickers i have. Oh, the nail. And my moms next door neighbor cant sell them because its enamel and you cant sell them. So every time i go home, she like, left me rifle through this giant basket she has of, like thousands of these sets of mail stickers and takes on the. Oh, but yeah, they have fun. Oh, yeah, it is. It is. I can tell in my hometown just by observing from afar. Kind of. I can tell the girl who is like the top of the pyramid usually. And then i c see everybody else get into it and then it changes. Its very funny how it cycles through and and how people dont quit. I mean, they quit one mlm, but then they pick up and do another one a lot of the time, right . Yes, because you have to. Its so hard. Its so much inner psychology, so. Okay, if you figure out youre not making money at this 1 million in order to quit and not want to do it again, you have to first identify as a victim. You have to understand that you are a victim. You have to understand that probably during your tenure there, you victimize other people. Right . Yopeeyre not making money either. And they happen to be your sister. So you have to, like, recognize those two things. You have to also know that it wasnt your fault, but it wasnt what you were doing wrong. And instead what happens . The story that gets told often is that wasnt the right mlm and i didnt have the right attitude about that product, so ill quit this one, but im still believe in in the the dream. So we and named jd who failed miserably. And like a number of islands and i thought we were doing this interview like, oh, you came to your senses or whatever. And then at the end she was like, so now im doing landmark, which is another. I was like, what are you talking about . I mean, we had a laugh about it, but i was like, you dont learn anything from this. And shes like, no, i really think its a good idea. Like i wt to make money like youre not this isnt not working. Yeah, it is tricky. This is. And then im like, frozen years ago, i had i worked on a story about these 5 earrings that were in mlm and they had it was a horrible story. They had a conference in las vegas and wevent and multiple e attended, died of covid and oh my god, it was awful. Ones who had spoken out on th facebook or whatever. And i do see how many of them are still doing. And you think you had just like a horrifying experience. And obviously i dont want to be judgmental towards people, but its wild how they say, well, this one was bad, but the other ones are good. Its the same pressure mechanisms that they just repeat over and over again, which i guess does bring me kind of to where i want to go next, which is, you know, how do they get you in these emails . You had a story about one of these. It was called holiday magic, where they would i really laughed at this part. They had a manual that would they would teach you about how to get a pen into someones hand to some paper design drop the pen and then have jan pick it a. Yeah. And then just really care, like, just silence. If you dont know whats going on here. But youf the tactics that they use, i guess, to initially like to get you in besides the promise,■ and you essentially create a list of people you would like to recruit. And for a while you drip on them, meaning you, you gift them invite them to the parties, but you dont pitch it to Business Opportunity, but you just keep in touch. Text them every once in a while about something unrelated. Give them another candle, etc. I do that for a long enough and then you pounce when you feel like theyre ready to sign up. And she had a she has notebook. Ive seen it in person. It was called her direct list. That was like a three ring binder with just tons of names, addresses, information about people like when is their birthday . Who are they married to . You know, like, like a dossier, essentially, about her entire neighborhood and everyone she knows. And whaty on all of them, turn them into recruits. And that was an interesting attempt. But even lately, i just seen the its kind of sad. I was at the airport going to michigan for thanksgiving, i believe, and there was an lady in one of the restaurants just walking up to people, strangers with her briefcase. And i was like, i wonder if shes even going anywhere. She bought like a really cheap Spirit Airlines ticket just to, like, hang out in there for it to go hang in the airport and we keep trying to recruit her, she told. Oh yeah, she was training. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. She would like chit chat people a little bit and then they would be like, so what are you doing . Shes like, im going to a business conferencthen it was le immediately, heres the pitch. Wow. And im over in the corner of the russia shopping, like top abesque. My goodness. We that is what. So i mean, does anybody ever want to i mean, somebody has to come into thinking theyre going to sell. I have i have friends. And on the first season of our show, we spoke to my friend danielle, who is a childho we grew up together in michigan and she has really high ranking in mlm called 31 bags. Its a christian bag company and i think shes like four levels from the top or Something Like that and has like in the thousands of people under her. Do you believe that she is one of those people that thought she was going to be president from kindergarten . You know, like she just r idea. We have going on here and like how she can run it and shes done really well. But guess what . Heor her off. I mean, far more than full time, i would say probably if she really wrote down take home payk ever in a year was 45,000 to not aually be like get healinsu. They dont have Health Insurance benefits. Theres not a401k, theres not vacation time, thats for sure. I mean, you can day off because your sales are are counted monthly. Its really hard to get any time off actually, to get approved time off because youre sales, sales, youre recruiting count for the whole group. So youre really discouraged from taking your own time. So none of the benefits of a regular job. Plus youre only making 45,000 a year, right . Right. Which is not a bad income, i guess, for where in grew up. Its fine. You can live on it, but its not something to brag about or to rope someone else in, too. I feel like unless there unless they feel like its their calling, like i know social workers who will take that much. Right. But they also get really Good Government benefits. Right . It usually youre the one kind of making the most, and thats kind of the thats the feeling to it. Certainly not the feelings. Theyre three other people above you. But if thats a steal it like thats not a great place for the feeling to be. No, no now and there are a couple people above her. A couple . You know. But if you think about how many people the exponential growth of thatright to and then say you have ten and each of them get five and each of them get five and each of them get five. Once youre down like four or five levels, youre talkinghund. Right . And so if these couple up here in the first few rungs are making 100,000, like who am i going to beat out . Like, how would i how would leapfrog best friends for one or like a mom and lula ro, for example, almost everyone at the top of their organization is like related to one another. So how are you going to squeeze in there . Mary one of them, i dont know, right . And it just doesnt seem like a good economic plan to think like, im going to infiltrate this really closed organization at the very top and then i can make her money, you know . Okay. Income, but also daniel, my friend who does the bags, hes been doing it for like a long time. Like eight, ten, 12 years, so that. Same thing with jennifer raiola, who also wasnt making any money. Eight years. Scott lost. Was it ten years or something . So theyre even the ones that are making a little bit of money, or it takes a really long time to ge there. Uh huh. And is jennifer the one who had the the convertible, or is that someone else, the mercedes suv, White Mercedes suv . Yeah, yeah. And so you just tell that story. Thats all i, i, i genuinely just who outwardly she sells arbonne right. She looks like shes succeeding, but shes. Oh, so yeah, just tell that story. Shes now seeing a cult d programmer like wow, seriously therapy to try to take it[t outf her head. What happened . So jennifer was selling arbonne arbonne. If you dont know, its like its a weird company. Its like diet shakes and makeup, like, perfect for ladies, you know, just exactly what the ladies need. Diets and makeup and its claims to be like all natural and whatever, but its again, its like you can get that its like you can get that whole foods we all have you dont get that are going to get Natural Products but they thats what they sell and they have this program where i ju explain a little bit more about the levels. So you know if youre way down here, youre like a an associate or a represented or a distributor. And or recruit, you know, enough people in a month, its usually not from selling, its from recruiting and their sign up fees. But they put it a recruit five people and theyre each 200, and then that means you sold 1,000 for their starter packs, essentially so you, you hit a certain sales goal every month for, lets say, three months, and you get to rank up and it gives you like a couple of benefits, like maybe compensation or something, or youre your discount on products and things like that. And so you just try to rank up and rank up. S ranked up pretty high and a lot of her friends and family had joined her. And one of the levels is, i think Senior Vice President , its called, or Senior Regional president. I have my book right here, but im not going to open it. Im so sick of thing. Im just kidding. Its a great book now. So she wanted to get to the certain level and its called the mercedes level. And this will sound familiar to anyone whos heard of the mary kay pink cadillac in arbonne. You get a White Mercedes, you get a White Mercedes, you dont get a White Mercedes. So essentially you get to a level where they allow you to go to your local mercedes dealership, ply for a loan or a lease in your name. There. Their name is an anywhere except on the outside of the car. Theres like placards that say our born on the outside of the car. But they dont have anything to do with the actual ownership of the car. And3w then they set the sales goal. I think for her it was like 40,000 a month or something for her and, her team. And if you every 44, maybe a quarter. So it was a lot of money. If you keep hitting that, you get 800 from the company to go toward your car. So its like what . Its just a manipulation tactic to keep you. Like, first of give them the 800 right. But its to keep you roped in like its to keep you stuck wir just getting 800 a month a couple of times. But like the the the goal is so high that the sales goal and the way she reached it even to get this mercedes was kind of shady. Like not shady. She didnt do anything wrong. But arbonne encouraged all of their salespeople and all our moms do this. They encourage all of their salespeople to like buy multiples of any new product thats coming out so that they can sell one to their friends and have one in their house and have one in their car and all that stuff. So she did that one time when there was this big new Product Launch and her team all bought everything and then she hit the sales goal. So doing that month after month does kind of impossible. So now she has the mercedes is an 800 a month. Imry but a brand new White Mercedes suv in northern michigan, a white car. First of all, what dirt roads everywhere . I dont think so. Youre not even going to cover the lease, let alone insure or texas or anything else. And like, it wasnt even a hybrid. So gas is a gas guzzler, right to me. And she stole on that. Not in urban, but its her arou. So shes like a like a driving advertisement for our von, a company she doesnt believe in. She doesnt believe in a work for anymore. And when i was riding around and i wanted to take a screwdriver and like pry off sign on above e wheel, well, im like, thats fine. And people also we went mushroom hunting one day when i was out there and just to take a load off and her car, we were like, park in a ditch and then go back into some and stuff where we knew wheree thought mushrooms were. And i wont tell you any more than that, but people would pull over and be like, rila, jennifer like her car is so recognizable to everyone in the tiny town she lives and like knows thats her work. They can just see her everywhere shes going, you know . Its like, yeah, i think a big flag, a big red flag, huh . Oh, man. Well, then theres also theres like a wellness point in this. A lot of the moms and obviously we saw during the pandemic and covered a lot of them discovered that they had ways to help with covid. But this kind of goes back to the beginning to right in our run this. But a lot of them do this. And even 100 years ago, a lot of companies were were kind of started based on like a wellness promise that i feel like has really seeped into society, right . Yes. And theres a reason for that as well. So like the earliest mlm were vitamins, one of the earliest of melons was neutralizer, which is now owned by amway, but guys who started amway started at Natural Light and naturally existed before that. And it was like vitamin supplements, i think. And its since thats since then thats become a huge share of the Product Market in mlm. And i think the reason is people who i think if you believe the story about america, theres things that you question that and then you question different things. So you a lot of people dont trust that the establishment, they say, oh, everyone really, you know, therecomplex, therel industrial complex, theres, you know, the scientists dont want you to know that we actually have a cure for cancer. Thats really cheap. So theres sort of keep an eye on anything. And i know i was kind of like theories and stuff about regular products on the regular shelves, like trying to kill you when in fact a lot of mlm products are gravely hurt people in the past. But its like, yeah, thats first of all, youre big believer in the American Dream, but also you just dont trust the guys that are running it right now. Thats kind of the combo. I think we all know like that. Yes. And i think, you know, yeah, no, you got theres also like a religious aspect to this too. I mean, theres always the joke that its like mormons. Like, why do you think not that religion plays a role in this, but a lot of christian communities, this is moms really do take hold. What what do you think the connection is there on the connections . Okay. So we can start with the women again being asked to stay in the household and not having a lot so this is something thats thats deemed acceptable all for you to be spending your time doing, especially since youre doing it around your your church folks, your friends from church. You know, like, who could be that . I mean, my friend danielle has ■z hometown. So thats like your husband. Fine with that . Your pastors, my mother. So thats one thing. Another thing is that christian and im only talking christians here, i didnt do a lot of research into other religions participation and mlms, but i did look into protestants and catholics quite a bit. And one thing thatou tin, espet churches and evangelical churches and mormonism, is to proselytize. So its part of your job as a christian to spread the word, to tell people and save their souls. Right. Which is how you end up with people going off to weird islands and never cand the the s to do that kind of work is pretty mucthe same thing to do. Recruiting in. And im all out. So youre already comfortable with the idea of walking up to someone and offering them this gift of freedom of, you know, you can finally have what you want in life. And and we can do it together like that is all over the place in church, like were helping each other, you know, were helping each other against the ban and were going to, you community, this Little Utopia better for ourselves. And so the idea of knocking on or walking up to strangers in a supermarket is not completely foreign to those communities. And then i also think that in some factf calvinism, i spoke about that a lot because thats where the amway guys got their beliefs system started in the calvinist church. And mormonism is similar where monetary gains are seen as a blessing or a sign that if there is predetermination, what signs could you look for on earth that youre one of the chosen ones and those sects have decided that wealth is one of the things you can maybe would help you take a good guess if youre going to the good place or the bad place. So again, you get into a chicken or egg thing where its like lot of the■g■mse folks gouintentionf money so that it so that they do. And then its like, well, why would they send me to hell . Like im working. I bought off and i have a bunch of money. Im an honorable person and i should be rewarded in the afterlife. And i know thats a really big thing in mormonism. And then lastly, want to say, i think also because so many mormons participate, that it has gotten kind of a bad religious. But utah is the like the home of them all. And theres more per capita than anywhere any other state. But thats because they the people who run that state, have created a really lax pyramid scheme laws. Dt the only scam that are being scams that are being run out of utah. Theres plenty of others, but i happen to be one of them. So its kind of like if youevex accountant will be like, set it up in delaware right . Because delaware has like no something tax. I dont know, like some tax you dont pay. If your llc is registered in delaware, its similar. So if you want to start going, my mom started in utah. The state wont go after you for a pyramid law violation. That pyramid scheme violations. Yeah, right. Well thats i think like one of the things that for me about the book and i remember this from the podcast that was the most disturbing were the polish tax here where you kind of find yourselfalking enough about mlms and worrying enough about mlm and ultimately you landed the part of like, well, why the heck doesnt somebody do something about this . ■uth is allowed to exist where 99 of people fail . I mean, some of it comes from lobbying, rig . The amway people have been very a lot of it very good. I dont want to just say amway, but a lot of it is amway, right . Just kd of beingblamway. But but the dsa that direct sellers association, which is the mlm lobby and individual companies do spend a lot on contributions to political campaigns for people who are friendly to muslims, mostly conservatives,ostly republicans, mostly people who have who just love bootstrap thinking and i think you know, those weve seen the political ties. I mean, they amway dudes were like in government. One of them like was part of the rnc and the other one this isnt government but like was part it was the head of chamber of commerce and now his kid is so which chamber of commerce is not ■a department in the government its a its a lobbying organization. But which i never knew before of a lot of politics going on in this in this world. Mm hmm. But also like, it is politics on ■dboth sides, right . I think that was for me has been surprising where you kind of with you like, okay, i can understand a world where Ronald Reagan said, go ahead,yd mohamm. Just like, you know, the mantra of is very much go ahead. All business. But it really is like were and democrats, at least at the federal level, have not done a whole lot on this right. I think that we are in denial about what weve tasked the efforts with. I think thats the problem is, again, and this is why i like talking about this stuff, because its stuff people dont know or think about very often. But if yctc spend a couple of minutes thinking about it, its like, oh my gosh, the ftc, imagine this. You have you have a whole department of of a federal government that has less funding than like a medium sized mlm like annual funding, like compare revenues or Profit Margins on and on all the big people up top, not the little guys to the ftc. Theyre like tiny, a tiny, tiny. I think its like 350 million a year or something, which is like nothing. Dont quote me on that, but its somewhere around there and their job at the ftc is to go after credit card fraud, identity theft, telecom, you know, like spam calls, false product claims like, you know, or service all of the internet phishing stuff, catfish ring, all this stuff and on alarms. So how to get them to prioritize this thing that has branded itself so well as something havy obviously bad criminal acts going on which they dont even have the capacity to to those lg them to getting the momentum of the country to s take out the millions is hard and people are trying. But thats hard to do because when you have like people steang likol cards, like thats a you know, you kind of look at the two of them and youre like, well, these people signed up for it. And these people, you know, didnt. And we only have ten of ushatev. Ive talked to the ftc a lot, and it feels very much like thats the main issue with why they wouldnt put this at the top of their docket although they are taking it much more seriously lately, especially since covid, they have been sending out warning letters for false product claims. A company saying our essential oils will cure or prevent covid. The warning letters. You know, i challenged them on this a bit like, what do they really you knocking on doors . Are you going showing up there and make sure they dont do their stuff . But a new initiative has started a lawsuit just came out a couple of days ago, a Class Action Lawsuit that might establish, distribute ers as employee is meaning when they go online and claim stuff like our products care, covid, theyre actually youre representing the company right now. Its foggy because the company can say thats just an individual distributor. I didnt tell them to say that if i thought they but, you know, i didnt tell them to say that. Thats not part of our trainin■t and its just like thats what everyone else is doing and what you told up lines to do. But now if they do, when this lawsuit, they are, you know, on their way to these people are not considered employees. I mean, that would be great. Like that would be resolved. So many things had to, you know, pay taxes in a certain way if they had to offer insurance that they had to get Social Security and stuff like that, like all that. I mean, its a huge deal. And im keeping a close eye on that one because that would solve a lot of that. Yeah, because it does have looked at this a little bit. But i remember like years ago looking because i think they do have to kind of disclose like what most people make or whatever. But even thats a lot of the time that they do disclose that by the time youre like the fourth spreadsheet, you kind of cant tell how much money. And you know, its■w impossible for the public income disclosure statement. Ive rarely seen one thats over one page. The compensation are so huge. The thing that i will tell you as a seller, what youre going to make are so huge and convoluted that like, i cant understand a word, but the sheet that theyre supposed to show, not supposed to, they dont have to. No one has to. But but if in good faith, a few of these companies are not doing this, theyre like offering up the info and it will be one page. It has a chart that shows you well, first of all, its a lot of like inspirational language up at the top. And theres a little chart thats like how many people make 1,000,000. 00 1 of the company . How many people that. And then it usually tells you like the 99 make nothing or make like 200 a year or Something Likeat it doesnt youe the people fail, the people who drop out. So it doesnt there should be another actually these people quit within the year because they failed and they lost this much. That would be the mo informative version of that chart to me, because if they included that and i asked the dsa to do it and they wouldnt do it, and they were like, i dont understand what youre asking me. And i was like, i just need to know. Youre telling me how much people make and how happy they are, but who have you talked to . Any of the unhappy ones . Like is that part of your survey . And they were like, no. I thought, what are you talking about. Incomplete. Its incomplete data. If you dont have that, like why a business would do that. Like, not know thr ion rate. Thats right. Thats not how work works. Yeah, like if walmart was linlie every year, like that would be a problem for walmart and it would something theyould want look into. And the millions are like, yeah, okay, cares. Thats kind of a them problem. I guess. You know, knowing all of this. Like why do you think people keep falling for this like everyone . So i think, well gen z smart and theyre all on tiktok they are going to fix this. Theyre going to find why do we keep girl on tiktok selling. Ml out there on yeah this is the truth but why do we keep because it sounds it sounds great and it sounds exactly like the story weve always been told. It doesnt sound out of the ordinary for■ this culture like it sounds exactly right. Like it sounds you can make a living without having to go deeply into student debt. All you have to do is now be online all the time, which you are anyway. And you can have finl freedom and you can spend as much time with your kids as you want to, and you can make as much money as you want to. It just depends on how hard you want to work. You set your own hours. You, you know, you decide how much to grow your business. All of that. Like if that were true, i would do it tomorrow. Like i, i love the idea of it and i think a lot of people love the idea of it and the person giving you the idea isnt giving of any. You know, theyre not saying what really what really happens. You kind of have to dig for that information. Its only really last five or tt you could get a lot by googling mlms. Now, a truth in advertising has a nice collection of, you know, information around the business practices, the dubious Business Information on their website, obviously, like reddit groups and facebook groups that are anti mlm and then my show on my book and, other shows about this world, but its been very, very recent. So i think, you know, lets say 20 years ago, i wouldnt have even known who to ask if this good idea or not. The chamber of commerce is certainly not who i can ask because theyre run by an, you so i guess Better Business bureau or something. But who actually calls them . I dont know. Yeah, thats what we used to say. Well, you know, the ftc, its i guess like i feel like i do this for a living and. I dont like about its website as much as i look it up, but its like i and it is i mean, i do think too, sometimes we only have a few minutes left, but you dont even recognize sometimes that its an email. Im like, i think im a pretty astute person, right . I can think two years ago in a friend of mine with like asked me to go to some webinar in back of my mind, i was like, oh, melanie sells cleaning products now, and it didnt occur to mlm. I just thought, well, im shes doing something new, so you dont always recognize it either. Well, they know not to advertise it that way, right . So, you know, not to just walk up to you and be like, are you interested in multiLevel Marketing . Like thats not the sales pitch, but theyre, theyre getting sneakier. I feel like theres more like there does used to be a way against the rules, way against the rules. But theyre now getting on store shelves, like making official partnerships with like a big brand like sephora. So, like beautycounter isnt on my lap and they sell products at ave tupperware at target now. So theyre kind of blurring the lines. And if you see it on the shelves at target, does that■ok like a potential pyramid scheme . No, no. And so now why dont you just sell it at home, not knowing which you talk about in the in the book that tupperware actually started in Department Stores and failed miserably and then then moved over to the party system. But yeah, i think theyre theyre getting theyre getting sneaki. Theyre Getting Better at the language they use to bring peoplen so that its not just red flags all over the place. In the beginning and in my family anyway, people dont talk about it. I joined it. I know. And they say i got a new job. Wow. Thats thedmm. And so and then if someone fails, its kind of embarrass saying you also got your mom and your cousin and your sister in law into it. And so you dont talk about it. The easiest thing to do is like it wasnt right for me. Mm mm. Wasnt a good fit, you know, and then youre just on your way to the next level or whatever. But i understand that becausitr everyone to talk to. Thats like especially left out for a long time, like jennifer, its really hard. Like in my conversations with her, shes having realizations all the time, like, oh my god, i cant believe i believed that or i cant believe i said that to someone or oh my gosh, like, its its all just coming up all the time. And shes making apology phone calls all over the place, like as shes realizing its like coming out of a stupor, you know. Right. And so you just once you figure it out, its just takes some time to recognize what happened and your, you know, maybe 15,000 in the whole. Yep. Yeah. And with somebody like so i think about like the victims of bernie madoff. So that was a ponzi scheme, not a pyramid scheme. There was no product involved. But it kind of works similar, but folks can say this is a you know, this is a crime that goes after the other. You know, a lot of departments really want this guy behind and can see whatit. And dont have such a problem selfidentifying as victims, even though they did do the same thing by roping their friends and family into it. At least all of them can say like point the finger at you and what millions have done by, you know, lobbying for the laws that they have is they protect themselves with this idea of if we were a pyramid scheme if we were illegal, we wouldnt be allowed to exist. And what i like to say iske sar because im not in prison. Right. Like youre you have to get caught. Someone has to have do the research and come after you and we just dont have that right now with the ftc. Mm well. I wish. I mean, any other more hopeful note that thats the note, that we are going to end are going to be great. Well be fine and its going to be great. Oh, heres a hopeful note. Heres the cover of my book thats really pretty. Oh, i will hold it up, too, because i think, well, thank you so much. I using this is just a Community Center . Its way more than that. Is para thousand Community Centers to create wifi enabled listings so students from low income families can get the too they need to be ready for anything. Comcast supports cspan as a public service, along with these other television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. Celebrating of our annual studentcam documentary competition. This year cspan asks middle and High School Students across the country to lookorward while considering the past, highlighting the milestone of the anniversary. Each participant was given the option to look 20 years into the future or 20 years into the past. In response we received thoughtprovoking documentaries from more than 3002 hundred students across 42 states. Through conducting Indepth Research and interviews with experts, students tackled critical topics, such as technology and social media. It has already started replacing humans in certain jobs. Cleggs our tapestry can no longer sustain diversity. Discussions about criminal justice, race, bias, and the american criminal justice system. We are excited to share the top winners of studentcam 2024 in the middle School Division the first prize goes to from isaac graham new in middle view in mountain view, california. Ai reshaping americas tomorrow. The evolving world of artificial intelligence. The high school eastern divisions first prize is awarded to germ out from Montgomery Blair high school in silver spring, maryland for his film, the promise of langley part. Ange and reimagining their future of american suburbs. From Troy Athens High School in troy, michan claimed first prize in their High School Central division with their production, unseen heroes, the caregivers of america. Brendan jang, emily and max from Palo Alto Senior High School in california earned first prize for threads of change, which takes a critical look at the fashion industry and our top award of 5,000 for a grand prize goes to nate coleman and a 10th grader at Weston High School in connecticut. In essence held hostage, conflicts with iran deals with the timely and sensitive topic and deals with a former iranian hostage. Saying you are free to leave, i was blindfolded, handcuffed, thrown in the back of the car and shake it taken straight to prison. It brings me great joy out of 3200 students in the competition , studentcam 2024. Thank you so much. Thank you. This is a huge honor. We are so grateful for this opportunity. We really think you a lot. We extend our gratitude to the educators, parents and participants who have supported eaheir creative journeys. Congratulations to all our winners. Dont went out dont miss ben cspan starting april 1. You could catch each of the 150 awardwinning studentcam films online anytime at studentcam. Org. Join us in celebrating the civically engaged in inspiring young minds as they share their opinions on the issues that are important to them and affect our rl irish officialskday. Yahoo news writes that during the visit, theredent and the irish Prime Minister plan to lkbout rlier this year to restore powersharing betweeth u. K. And Northern Ireland, which will vi the Northern Ireland executive and assembly. Also, Vice President Kamala Harris and secd ntleman doug emhoff are hosti