Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing 20240704

The hill rephe proposales. Would also pay 1. 5 times regular salary f workdays longer than an eight hours. This Senate Hearing is 1. 5 hours. The Senate Committee on Health Education labor and pin hits will comeo ordethis has bek so i think youre going to see there are hearings taking place all over the place i think you will see senators drifting in and o. I want to thank all of our panelists for being with us. This morning, we are going to be talking about an issue that is very rarely discussed in the halls of congress or the senate. That is the need to standard wod states. In fact, the last time as we understand it the senate held wn the year 1955. So i think maybe the time is now to renew that discussion. At that hearing, the senate heard from at that point the head of the United Auto Workers and the congress of industrial organizations and roofers, regarded as one of the great labor leaders of his time. This is what he said at that time. He said, we fully realize the potential benefits of automation are great. If properly handled, if only a fraction of wr the future is tr, within a very few years, automation can and should make possible a four Day Work Week. The reduction of the work week to 35 or 30 hours in the coming decades can be an important shock absorber during the transition to the widere use of automation. In 1886, 1 of the planks was to establish an eight hour work day, eight hours work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for what you will. That was back in 1886. Americans of that era are sick and tired of working 12 hour ■days for six or seven days a week with very little time for rest, relaxation or quality time with their families. They went out on strike, they organize, they petitioned the government, and they achieved real after decades o■fggle. In 1916, president Woodrow Wilson signed legislation into law to establish an eight hour work day for railroad workers. Six years later, the Ford Motor Company became one of the first major employers in america to establish a five Day Work Week for autoworkers. Heres something i believe that most people in our country do not know. Instates Senate Overwhelmingly passed legislation to establish a 30 hour work week by a vote of. That was 1933. While that legislation ultimately failed as a resultam, president Franklin Delano roosevelt signed the fair labor standards act into law and a 40 hour workweek was established in 1940, my friends, in 1940. Unbelievably, 84 years later, despite massive growth in Worker Technology in worker productivity, millions of workers are working longer hours for low wages. I hope people hear this because this is not an issue we ta about enough. Today in america, 28. 5 million americans, 18 of our workforce im in now worked over 60 hours week, and 40 of employees in america now work at least 50 hours a week. We were talking about a four hour work week 80 years ago and thats what people today, despite the explosion of technology, working today. The sad reality is that americans now work more hours ththy nation. We will talk about what that means to the lives of ordinary people. In 2022 in the unitedand i hope, logged 204 more hours per year than employees in japan. 279 more hours than workers in the United Kingdom and 470 more hours an workers in germany. Despite these long hours, the average worker in america makes almost 50 a week less then he or she did 50 years ago after adjusting for inflation. No let that sink in for a moment. Think about all of the extraordinary changes in technology that we have seen over the last 50 years. Computers, robotics, Artificial Intelligence, and the huge increase in worker productivity that has been achieved during that time. In factories and warehouses, robots and sophisticated machinery did not exist then or were only used in primitive forms. There were no checkout counters that utilized bas a result of ty technological transformations that we have seen in recent years, American Workers are now over 400 more productive than they were in the 1940s. Extraordinary. Technology has made working people far more productive, and what has been the result of all that productivity increase for woing people . Almost all of the economic gains of that technological transformation have gone straight to the top while wages for workers have remained stagnant or even worse. While ceos today are making 350 times as much as their average employees, workers throughout the country are seeing their family life fall apart as they are forced to spend more and more time at work■w, and missing their kids birthday parties, little league, baseball games and just the time they need with their families. What stresses them out even further is that after spending all of their time at work, many of them still are living paychecktopaycheck and cannot take care of their basic needs. At a moment in history when Artificial Intelligence and cs, and i hope we all understand the jobs that people have today aint going to be there in many cases in 15 years. Cwxthe economy is going to be transformed by Artificial Intelligence and robotics. The question we are asking today is a Pretty Simple question, do we continue the trend that technology only benefits the people on top, or do we demand that these transformational changes benefit working people, and one of the benefits must be a lower work week, 32 hour workweek. This is not a radical idea. Friends, the seventh largest economy in the world, has a 35 hour work week and is consider hour workweek. Norway and denmark are working about 37 hours and belgium has already adopted a four Day Work Week. What we are going to hear work week. What we are going to hear today is there are companies all over our country and all over the world that have adopted the 40 hour work week. You know what they found . They found that productivity actually went up because workers were able to focus on their work. They were happy to go to work. So the issue that we are talking about today is of enormous importance. Full benefits and the exploding technology. The wealthiest people who are doing phenomenally well or working people who are falling behind. With that, let me give the mic over to senator cassidy. ■ a 32 hour workweek with no loss in pay, my staff has volunteered to be the test case for that. Who wouldnt want it . No loss of pay but you work a lot less. But in reality there is no free lunch. Workers would be the one who pay, not get paid extra. The government mandating a 32 hour workweek requiring businesses to increase pay at least anxtra . 25 per hour would frankly destroy some employers. They would ship those jobs overseas, or they would automate to replace those workers for whom they have an increased expense. Or they would dramatically increase prices to make them stay afloat. We talked about the biden economics leading to inflation. This would be napalm upon the fire of inflation. It would threaten millions of Small Businesses operating on a razor thin margin because they are unable to find enough workers. Nokers but only for three quarters of the time, and they have to hire more. In fact, there is even incentive for them to dip down so they make everybody parttime and then they dont have to pay penalties or certain requirements which are required for full time. If a business wants to voluntarily try a 32 hour workweek for themselves, several laws allow it. We dont have to mandate it. We will hear today from a business that does that. So if anmployer things it is good for their business, go for it. But i will note that the chair has not done that with his staff. Why . Use there is a certain amount of work required for the continuity of the work. Thats just basic. Now the Business Needs to maintain a 40 hour workweek to remain competitive, not just locally, but globally. Government mandated 32 hour workweek would be catastrophic. Government should not be in a business of undermining their employers ability to keep their doors opit perhaps unconstitutional mandates. The chair frequently says the United States is the wealthiest nation in the world. We are. How did we achieveAmerican Work. Second to none. And we have a balance. We dont have people as theyo in china working 80 hours a week, but we have that balance. This disrupts that balance. And we wont maintain the status of being the worlds wealthiest nation if we need cap the economy will something that purports to be good for the American Worker, but will lead to shoring the workforce. There is a reason nor the country has a mandatory 32 hour workweek. When japan shortened its workweek from 46 to 40 hours, economic output plummeted 20 . Belgium has a four Day Work Week but those workers work 40 hours within those four days. Ai and other technologies have the potential to dramatically increase economic productivity. I think we should have a bipartisan hearingn the american economy. If we have this, i am ecstatic. You are nodding youread we need. My Office Published a white paper last year on how this committee should ai and the impacts upon health, education, and labor. And we are working on next steps based on that feedback. But a momandpop restaurant is not really seeing increased productivity from ai. They are having trouble finding enough to fill shifts, and if we were car them to pay for a 40 hour workweek for 32 hours of work, how will it turn out for that momandpop restaurant . Hospital staffing shortages threatening Public Health. Why are we passing along to exacerbate that shortage . Uaw pushed for a 32 hour workweek and it didnt happen. I dont think the federal government should mandate it to placate a Democratic Political base. Frankly it seems and exercise to help the uaw lay the groundwork fo furniture future negotiations. They should discuss it at the bargaining table. Either way, i apologize t anyo, but a mandatory 32 hour work week is bad policy. Not even democrats unanimously support this. But it may give us an understanding where the biden is heading. They■ are up for a tough and ty may be willing to use executive authority to do something which actually has bipartisan opposition. There pattern from democrats in prioritizing policies to help politically connected unions at the expense of the workers and businesses themselves. Recently the Biden Administration proposed a new overtime rule dramatically increa pay threshold by 55 . That will result in layoffs and it will result in more inflation. The Biden Administration released a new joint employer rule threatening the viability of the franchise model that employs over 9 million workers and has empowered people who had a dream of becoming a Small Business person to become a Small Business person and otherwise would not have. Theent labors new independent contractor rule jeopardizes the ability of 27 million americans work as independent contractors, with the flex ability to pick their own hours and work for multiple businesses, but the independence and protection from forced unionization has made restricting this freedom a top priority. These policies hurt the American Worker and contribute to inflation. As i said, i would a hearing te impacts of ai and the new technologies in our jurisdiction. There is very strong bipartisan interest in examining this issue, but we are working instead upon a bill which will ner Pass Congress and will be detrimental for American Workers. With that, i yield. Sen. Sanders we thank all five panelist for being with us today. We will begin with the internationale united automobile workers. He is a 29 year member of the uaw and started as an electrician and led the uaw in negotiating a story contract raised wages and benefits for the workers of that union. Thanks for being with us. Good morning, chairman sanders, dr. Cassidy, and members of the committee. Im here to talk about one of the most important issues to any union leader, any workingclass person, any us senator, any human being. And thatr time. As president of the United Auto Workers, i represent 400,000 working class people across industries, d 600,0 and i know when my members look back on their lives, they never say i wish i had worked more. x when people reach the end of their lives, they never say i wish id made more money. what they wish for is they wish they had more time. Thats what work does. We are paid for our time, and when we were, we are sacrificing time with other friends, and other things we wish to do. But time, like every preciousfrg class. Since the industrial revolution, we have seen the productivity of our society skyrocket. With the advance of technology,2 workers used to do. More profit can be squeezed out of every hour, every minute, every second. There was a time when this phenomenon was supposed to lead to workers getting their time back. Getting some of their lives back. Nearly 100 years ago, the economist John Maynard Keynes spoke of the future of workers time. His worry was that with all the gains in productivity, we wouldnt know what to do with ourselves. He predicted a 15hour work week. ■s■ 100 years ago. In my own union, i go back into our archives and read of the fight foe 30hour week, an idea that was alive and well for back in the 1930s and p into the 21st , century, we find these ideas unimaginable. Instead, we find workers working longer hours. We have workers working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. There are workers, not union, union or not, working multiple jobs, they are leaving to work and scraping to get by in living paychecktopaycheck. We find workers today later in their life working deep into their 60s, 70s, and s because they cannot afford to retire. And we find the associated and suicide, of people who dont feel a life of endless, hopeless work is a life worth living. We have workers who feel despair as a consequence of advances in technology, workers have been sacrificed at the altar of greed and theyve been stripped of their dignity. We have a Mental Health crisis we talked about a lot in this country, but we never talk about the causes of that. There have been studies done, increases in stress from working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, your sacrifice of family life and things you want to pursue, is because of increasing cortisol levels which lead to heart disease, cancer, strokes. Given all those facts, if someone is lucky enough to get to retire, typically they have worked themselves to death their entire life, they face the replacements, hip replacements, shoulder surgeries and the rest of their lives figuring out how they will survive. It is sad to say that in 1933, the u. S. P Senate Passed legislation to establish a 30 hour work week, but due to intense corporate opposition that legislation failed. But in 1940, resident Franklin Delano roosevelt signed the fair labor standards act establishing 84 years ago 40 hour week was established. Since then, weve had a 400 increase in productivity, but nothing has changed. That was why in our Victory Campaign we had our stand up strike, we raised the flag for 32 hour workweek. A workingclass issue and thats why 75 of americans in her contract right stood with us in that fight because they are all living the same reality. ■ who is going to act to fix ths epidemic of lives dominated by work . ■ are the employees going to ac . Will congress act . How can workingclass people take back their lives and take back their time . Many in this room will say people just dont want to work, or workingclass people are lazy. Buthe truth is, workingclass people arent lazy, they are fed up. They are fed up with being left behind and stripped of dignity as wealth and equality inequality spirals out of control. They are fed up that in america, three families have as much wealth as the bottom 50 of citizens in this nation. That is criminal. America better than this. I want to close with this. I agree there is an epidemic in this country a people who dont want■7 t wpeople who cant be bo get up every day and contribute to our society. But instead want to freeload off the labor of others. But those are not bluecollar people. Those arent workingclass people. Its a group of people who are never talked aboutlittle they ad produce and how little they contribute to humanity. The people im talking about are the wall street freeloaders, the masters of passive income. Those who profit off the labor of others have all the time in the world, while those who make ispeople who build the products, contribute the labor have less and less times for themselves, their families, and for their lives. So our reunion will continue to fight for the rights of workingclass people to take back their lives and take back their time and we ask youo up wn workers and support us in that mission. Thank you. Sen. Sanders are next witness is an economist at boston college. She is a lead researcher for four day week global trials of companies instituting four day weeks with five days pay. She has been researching work time since the author of the bestselling book, the overworked amecan. Thank you for being with us. Thank you, good morning, im honored to have this opportunity to support the 32 hour work week act. We are here today because for 84 years, there has been no reduction in the standard workweek. Since 1950, the productivity of the American Worker has risen to 400 , yet fulltime employee still logged an average of 41. 9 urannual hours even rose in the 1990s and have barely changed since then. These trends depart from the steady reduction in hours between 1870 in world war ii and from trends in other wealthy countries. The average american is on the job 400 more hours a year than in germany, 200 more than in france and the u. K. And more than the average japanese. This is despite the u. S. Historically being the Global Leader in worktime reduction in the worlds first fiveday week country. This was the situation when the pandemic hit, which brought with it extraordinary levels of stress and burnout, resignation and historically high job vacancies. In response, an increasing number of employees are shifting to a no reduction in pay. I was asked to lead research on their experiences collaboration with an ngo called for date week global. They include all sectors, healthcare care, momandpop restaurants, manufacturing and construction, retail, nonprofits, it, finance, and professional services, and even a Police Department in golden,c. In the u. S. , 78 percent of these are Small Businesses with 50 or fewer employees, which is y. Our results have been extremely positive for both workers and the companies. We hbeing measures for more than 3600 employees, every one of which registers improvement from baseline to the end of the trial. Nearly 60 of employees experienced better workfamily balance, anxiety, sleep problems, fatie, physical and Mental Health improved for 40 of workers. 69 of employees have lower burnout scores. It is fins tell us the new schedule is lifechanging. One person reports that had it not been for the pilot, i wouldnt have had the time or the availability to get medical appointments and procedures which ultimately led to the Early Detection of something that mightve proved fatal. That something was cancer. In our statisticallarger the worktime reduction, the greater the increase in wellbeing. Fewer sleep problems and less fatigue or one reason. But the second is that a majority of employees register an increase in their productivity over the trial. They are more■■ energized, focused, and capable, partly as a result of organizationwide changes in work culture and processes. In response to methodological criticism, i will just say here that our findings are robust across time, across place, and industry and contain a large number of variables to rule out alternative explanations. For employers, the most important number is 91 . Thats the fraction of companies who have continued with a four da least one full year. In the u. S. And canada, only two companies have gone back to a five day schedule. Their performance metrics reveal why. Resignation spell2 , absenteeism decline 39 , revenue increased an average of 30 . Some Companies Report that quality of service improved. After losing 50 of their inpatient Nurse Leaders during the first two pandemic years, Temple University hospital gave them a four y week. Patient outcomes improved and voluntary turnover fell to zero. If the u. S. Adopts a four day week, 32 hour week, it is likely that hourly productivity will rise. That has been the experience of both workers and management in our trials. It has historically what scholars have concluded from past reductions in worktime and it of course wealth with International Comparisons come the countries with the highest levels of per our productivity are those wite shortei began rhy referencing our fourfold increase in productivity. The fact that so little of that productivity increase has been put toward reducing hours has left American Workers suffering from burnout andtress with families in special jeopardy. The pandemic exacerbated this preexisting problem. Given the current robust rates of u. S. Productivity growth, the promise of further large increases from Artificial Intelligence and the fact that over the last 84 years the standard workweek has been unchanged, it is now time for a 32 hour week. Thank you. Sen. Sanders thank you very much. Our next witness is john lehman, chief cofounder of a nonprofit. He successfully introduced the four Day Work Week at his company in 2022 and supports employers, unions and policymakers advancing the 32 hour work week. Thanks for being with us. Good morning. As the chiefs Strategy Officer at kickstarter, panel, having input minute and experienced a four Day Work Week in our country of 118 employees. Our journey baning the pandemic, a period that completely upended traditional work norms and demonstrated how ingrained and potenalare around. The pandemic also clarified that the time we have with our families and loved ones is the most valuable thing thatkickstan company and we were initially driven by repeated studies and ■gsuccs stories demonstrating that a four Day Work Week benefit both businesses and employees. We also recognize some common sense around how a four day work ekhours worked as a factor in productivity but is not determinate. Efficiency, focus, and employee ■retention are all equally or more critical. People are tired workers are already finding ways to rest at work. Theyre surfing the internet, theyre just slowing down, they are stepping away just to get the energy to get to the work day. I would rather just give people back their time so they can prop in april 2022, we initiated a sixmonth pilot. Our goal was to maintain or improve overall productivity. To do that, the bargain we made with our employees was simple. They would get back an extra day every week, retaining the same salary and benefits and in exchange, we expected them to manage their time effectively, show up to work every week we were not going to scale back our ambitions or our goals to accommodate the four Day Work Week. The result of our pilot were clear. Our goal achievement rate soared from 62 to 95 . Same. Mer response times, Employee Retention increased from 82 to 98 . All while du average weekly working hours by nine hours a week for each employee. We made the decision to stick with the four Day Work Week and have kept it for two years. The most profound change has been the impact to our employees. In just two years, weve been able to return new nearly 10,000 days, more than 27 years. Those are years of spending time with family and their children, volunteering in their communities, learning new skills, of their health. The value of that time is priceless and ultimately has been the greatest outcome of our transition to a four Day Work Week. The fiveday workweek was established 84 years ago in the u. S. Critics back then also predicted doom. They worried that a week and would destroy the american economy. Instead helped launch just to the front of a global pack. Entire industries, the american middleclass became the envy of the world and the week and became a time when families and communities came together. With ai looming on the horizon, its time for a muchneeded update. u÷pthe studies echo what we lead at kickstarter, that when piloted, the four Day Work Week works. All 35 north american companiee workweek with us in 2022 have kept it. If it didnt work, forprofit companies would abandon it. You dont need theories or advanced data. You just need to see that the companies that this tend to stick with it. This is not just tech companies, these are manufacturing companies, Health Care Facilities and pleas to perms that are making this transition. It can and must benefit all workers in our society. Thats why the bill introduced by the chairman is so important. It would ensure that we are defining a new standard for weekly that benefits all, not just the most privilege. With the opportunity we have now, its important to ensure all American Workers and our society reap the dividends. The four Day Work Week is an issue backed by data that americans of all stripes in poll after poll sate matters to them. It affords the opportunity to deliver a boost to our economy and happiness to every American Worker, to strengthen American Families and communities. The original weekends did just that, and its timeo sen. Sanders center cassidy, do you want to introduce your witnesses . A professor of the practice of data science in st. Louis, she is a senior fellow at Harvard University and m. I. T. Researcher and statistician to Discovery Channel shows and is featured in a number of publications. What is most interesting is that she studied at the cordon bleu. So we axley have someone who knows how to cook something more than pancakes. We are pleased to have you. Chairman sanders, dr. Cassidy, thank you so much for having me here today. I am astician and weve heard a lot of statistics thrown around. So im here to make some sense of these and make sure we are analyzing them property. The 32 hour workweek often point to statistical studies, mostly pilots, that suggest shorter work weeks can lead to increased productivity and improved employee wellbeing. The argument is making broad claims based upon week and since this tickly statistically flawed data sets. There are significant flaws and limi some of the studies to understand the statistical flaws and shed significant and potentially insurmountable doubt on the proposal for sustainability in the American Work economy. Many of the News Headlines touting the studies discuss the stress or happiness levels of workers who work less time. Inevitably, over the short term, in the short pilot projects, it is not inconceivable to having s increase. The question is where does the pendulum end at no work . Statistical studies, longterm statistical studies have shown us that happiness does not increase over time, it goes back to the same level. For example, the study after mandatory reduction of hours saw happiness after seven years. If you want to see those same employees really stressed out, just see whatappens when their employers lay them off to hire parttime workers instead or have to close their doors because they cannot make enough revenue. Another major flaw in the studies is the selfselection bias. For example, the companies that choose to participate in some of the studies like the four day week global study are Companies Whose work tends to be able to be adapted to a shorter workweek already, who can remove wasted hours. Specifically only companies that are able to adapt to shorter work weeks that tend to participate, cutting out they say extraneous meetings, coffee breaks, having more independent work im going to zoom. However, over 70 of the u. S. Job economy is people working with their hands. They meetings or to cut out. So statistically you cannot apply this type of cutting of hours across the entire economy. Also given the types of companies that are potentially capable of cutting their workweek, we could see a divide of the rich getting richer and having more time and the poor having to take on three the bills. We also potentially disadvantaged Older Workers who cannot necessarily physically do the same amount of work in a shorter time. This happened to the great detriment of that population during the great depression. In terms of increase productivity byweek, the statit there and there are specific shutting studies that show the opposite. Economic output fell by 20 . Another largely touted study in iceland had a Pilot Program cutting the workweek by about four hours from 20152019. V3th■2e results were blasted all over the headlines as an overwhelming success. What is not reported on is that the icelandic government or shell out almost 30 million extra a year to higher more healthcare workers because of this experiment. In spain where there is a Pilot Program, the companies that participate get access to a multimillion dollar Government Bond in order to participate. Microsoft tested a four Day Work Week by shutting down its japan office every friday for the month of august. The statistical claim is thatule in productivity. Correlation not necessarily causation. Productivity increased over a very short period of time during a low productivity month when overall productivity was already at a 75 year low. There is no statistical evidence to merit a nationwide mandate of a 32 hour workweek. In fact, there is clear evidence against it. If it works for some companies in some sectors, that is great. But it cannot be applied to all sectors. Thank you. Next is mr. Roger king, implement counsel at the hr policyrepresents the chief Human Resource officers of nearly 400 of the largest businesses. He is highly regarded attorney,g more than 40 years, he began at eight law school as a council for this committee. He tell me he was a peer with angus king, one of our colleagues and he worked with a very young Teddy Kennedy and. Thanks for being here, mr. King. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, dr. Cassidy, memos of the committee. It is indeed a distinct honor to come back before this committee again. I had great experiences here working with fritz mondale, ted kennedy, and angus king and i used to go out for an adult beverage with this committee. So thank you again for having me back. I am appearing here on behalf of the hr policy association. We represent approximately 10 of the private Sector Workers in this country who are corporate members. I like to start the discussion about mandating 32 hours, over eight hours, oese are concepts e consequences. This proposal only works if you reduce eight hours of work week and have the workers have the same level of productivity that they had at 40rs. It just doesnt work in many industries. It doesnt work ecomt work ope. What we have is what i call a productivity gap where we have work that is not yet getting done for the 32 hour workweek situation. How do you feel that productivity gap . As you cassidy, the inflationary impact of this type of proposal is considerable. I noted this week that the bureau of labor statistics said that we have inflation at 3. 2 , picked up from january. Our core infonmore. The 2 target rate for the feds. Thisa results to the consumer. What do i mean by that . If you cant fill the productivity gap by cuttinge mat to your business, you pass on added costs to the consumer. You have to pay for it some way. The other important point id like to make is that flexibility is the most important thing we are hearing from workers today. They want as much flexibility as possible, as to how, when, and where they perform work. Th■ proposal of the chairman, in all due respect, is going to interfere with that flexibility. Workers today want to be able to spend more time with their families. I certainly agree with the witness on that point. They also want to select when, where, and how they work. Lets go to the history of the fair labor standards act, and has been mentioned already numerous times. If you go back and look at the history of the new deal and why president Franklin Roosevelt was to increase the number of jobs in the country. The evidence was clethat proposal was put in place by the congress to increase the number of americans who come to the workplace. What we are seeing today in the proposal of the chairman creates a real problem for our country■. Have a tremendous shortage of workers. Industry after industry doesnt have enough workers today this proposal for Many Employers will cause even further worker shortages. The flexibility factor is a problem. We do command the chairman and this committee for having hearing on the impact of ai, it is considerable. Senator cassidy, your suggestion for a bipartisan discussion is excellent and we would welcome that. Theres no question ai can increase productivity. And there is no question that increased wealth can occur. Its what i call the ai divenand employers alike should share in that wealth. But the way to go about that is let the market determine that distribution of wealth. If the union can negotiate a 32 hour workweek, so be it. If he can convince the autoworker companies in this country to do it, so be it. But let thmarket determine how the distribution of wealth is going to occur. Finally, as an overall point, we commend the committee are starting a discussion about the fair labor standards act. This is one of the most litigated statutes in the country. Chairman, youre absolutely correct, we need to reexamine it, the amount of litigation that occurs regarding the fair labor standards act is way over the top. We need to address morey in the statute. Ive listed in my testimony a number of the 32 hour workweek. I would close with this comment, i just saw the senators bill lasttreme than i had thought we were going to be discussing today. The requirement to pay overtime hours will be a significant economic adverse impact on many companies, and the requirement to pay double hours, i think the only state in the country that does that is california. From our perspective, that is quite extre. One last point on et to bring this home, Health Care Employers in this countryrally d nurses for three 12 hour shifts. They have gone to three workdays, but they are 12 hour shifts, and that works, by and large. This proposal would require between that 36 and 32 additionf overtime. In addition it would require overtime over eight. That will have a very negative impact on the Health Care Community in this country and cause Health Care Expenses to go up. The solution for the Health Care Community is to get more nurses, more workers into the employment stream, not to impose strict standards that will cripple employers and cause incremental cost. Thank you very much. Sen. Sanders thank you very much to all the panelists. Let me just briefly respond to mr. Kings statement about letting the market decide who benefits from a to advanced technology. For the last 50 years, the market has done just that, and the result has been there has been a 50 trillion transfer of wealth from the bottom 90 to the top 1 . So after those 50 years, there are millions of workers today who are worse off, but we have more income at wealth inequalit so i am not quite in favor of letting the market decide. That may begin the questioning. Not to offend in terms of the time, because we only have a few members here and it is an important subject. I dont want to talk about statistics, weve heard a lot of statistics. You have been with the union for over three decades, no doubt as president youve met thousands of workers and thousands of retirees. Tell the American People what its like to work on a factory floor, in some i learned this recently, there are people today in america who are working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, unbelievable. About the impact on the life of a worker mentally, physically, who is doing the hard work day after day, year after year. What happens to that person . I find irony and some of the statements ive listened to, but the typical life of a factory worker, and this is union or not, it axley works for nonunion because they have less rules that govern the workplace. Typically many typical schedules and manufacturing are 12 hours schedules, and they are seven days a week. A lot of these places run around the clock. When youre standing on concrete floors 12 hours a day, stevan seven days a week year after ■1year, theres a lot of wear ad tear on a persons body. As i say, people when they age, they end up in their older working years come in up getting near replacements, hip replacements, shoulder surgeries. I just find irony in some of this, mentally the stress of working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, when you dont get to y kids, you dont get to go home and have dinner with your kids, you dont get to make sure they are getting their homework done or spend quality time with family. Even if you dont have a family, if you have quality time for yourself. Something sacrificed you are working 12 hours a day, either sleep or time with family, Something Else is sacrificed. We only have so much time in the day. Find irony in some of the comments made by mr. King as far as the shortage of workers. I dont believe we have a shortage oworkerin this country. I think covid made people wake up and realize what is important in life, its not working for 12 an hour at 12 hours a day and multiple jobs just to get by. The shortage of workers we see dont believe is a shortage, i believe its the fact that people woke up and decided im not going to leave my home for 12 an hour when i can even afford to pay the bills. And this, its in hr standard talking pnt abou[zpassing costs onto to the consumer. Ive witnessed inflation last four years that wasnt caused by workers, it wasnt caused it was caused by, two words, corporate greed. It is Consumer Price gouging. Weve■ireality here. Sen. Sanders thank you. We are the wealthiest country in the history of the world, and yet we have people who are stressed out, yet we are working longer hours as i understand then■w any other wealthy nation. How does that happen . The reason for the long hours in this country have to do with the kinds of things weve been talking here today, and the fact that the American Worker has not had enough power in the market to reduce hours. But there are other aspects as well. One of the things we know from n inequality increases, so do working hours. So the rise in inequality in the United States, which she referred to earlier, is one of the primary of longer working hours in the United States. Fiv from perspective, this is not just theoretical. You have implemented it. Talk a little bit about the impact it has had some of the transition to a four Day Work Week in your company, the impact that it has had on the workers there. Brexit has been transformative for our workers. I have been tolds one of the most impactful things they have experienced in their lives because a lot of these workers are able to spend time with their kids. They are learning new skills. Someone who works for me learn how to use ai on his days off and is much more efficient as a result. They are learning new skills that are n r work. They are just participating in communities and volunteering. Senator sanders our workers more focused when they come back . Yes. Workers are much more focused. They are better rested. They are dedicated to the task at hand in a different way,■ ad teams Stay Together longer. The cohesiveness of the organization is much more robust because you are not bringing people out. You are not having to deal with turnover costs. Senator sanders talk about turnover. One of the great costs to businesses is a lot of ■uturnovr and having to train new workers. What do you think the impact of a 32 hour workweek would be on them . It was shocking howrnover ant that had on our productivity. We rarely lost an employee in the last two years. That means people have longer we dont deal with hiring. The costs of hiring, the time of hiring someone else. Our goals dont get people want to work. The notion that, i dont know, americans are lazy, that some people seem to■zp have, its inaccurate. People want to work in a way that its balanced with the rest of their lives and they will stay in those jobs longer if the senator sanders thanks very much. Senator cassidy . I yield to senator braun. Thank you before i got here, 37 years spent running an woulds that scrappy navigation of how hard it is when you are signing the front side of a paycheck to get a little business to ever get beyond that. As we grew into a regional and then national company, things change as you evolve and we have had discussions before. I am aroponent of high wages and good benefits. I have been out there to where we want to be able to negotiate and but there is such a big difference in terms of that dynamic and then wrapping it with mandates. That would never enable most of what comprises our economy which would be Small Businesses, mainstream ones to be in a position to where they would have to live with some type of homogenous approach to maybe even what we are talking about and i think even for most bu owners, if they can, they are going to weave that into what they are able to offer their empleeand we have had the conversation. Big corporations that are in places where they have cornered the market, i think there is a legitimate discussion of how you spread that wealth within between and Public Companies and a lot of times, professional management, that would seem to, you know, rake in levels of pay that i never thought were possible. What i want to get back to is how i do disagree with trying to do anything from this place that would impose upon the preponderance of businesses out there to where i just dont think they could survive. I think that it is a legitimate issue to talk about voluntarily and if you are good at what you do, and you are going to keep employees, you will want to weave it in. It is a legitimate issue to bargain for at that highest level of large workforces. That is as far as you can go. Most businesses would not be like yours, mr. Leeland. He would not be in business if you are not open six days a week for almost any retail businesss business in our downtown that has been there for now nearly 45 years. It just would not work. T in mind. I want to start with this particular question. I want to focus on how this would work and with Small Businesses. I am not worried about big corporations. They generally are going to land on their feet anyway and i believe they ought to be negotiated with for all the things you might do to improve the position of a worker there. But what about mainstreet and Small Business . We will start with you. Mr. King. Part me. Sorry. I should have gotten there at this point. I think its really important to note that so many of these studies that have been done in these pilots that have shown incredible things isselfselect. These companies are choosing to be part of this. So they are able to cut out extraneous meetings and able to shorten coffee breaks. They are able to go to remote meetings for something whatever it is. I never heard of anything you justthat just is not there. We try and do it so we dont run out of time because i do have a final question for mr. Leeland. Mr. King, would you weigh in on that . Good to see you again, senator. This doesnt work for Small Business, for any type of business. If y cant measure productivity correctly and have that productivity gap satisfied, the proposal that the chairman is putting in legislation today would require overtime, overrate. It wld overtime over 32. It would require overtime doubletime, over 12. A Business Needs to have flexibility. Employees have family obligations in their committee. They Employer Needs them sometimes more than any, sometimes less and you know that from your business. The bill we are talking about here today interferes with that flex ability. It just is not sound policy. Thank you. Mr. Leeland, would you agree that your business has certain characteristics that probably made it securely or to you being able to do that or do you honestly believe that would be e of businesses, especially out on main street . Our business has stics thot unique but lend themselves towards an easier transition to a four Day Work Week. However, the pilots tre has wort this is possible across multiple industries. It looks different. The transformation looks different but we have seen manufacturing, construction, health care, Police Departments all do this successfully. Thank you. Thank you. Senator murphy. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I think this is a really important conversation to have regardless of where you stand on this issue and i think the fundamental question here that we are asking is where has all this wealth gone thasgathered im these massive increases in productivity . If it hasnt been going to workers . If the uaw and other unions have to fight tooth and nail just to be able to get living wage increases . I will tell you somethinout yet. A lot of that money is going to trust funds. A lot of that money is going into inherited wealth. And at some point, you know, we should have a conversation about that a little bit more openly as a committee and as a congress. Here is a stunning piece of. For the first time last year, the majority of wealth for new billionaires■ these were people who became billionaires in 2023 came not from their work but through inheritance. It is the First Time Ever that that has happened. 1000 billionaires are expected to pass down 5. 2 heirs in the next 20 years. And so, you hope that if the money isnt going to the workers, it is at least being recycled back into the economy. It is just not true. A lot of that money is being passed down to kids who, you know, in previous ages, would not have been able to enjoy that level of benefit from their parents success. I bit about leisure time. You have talked about this already. You really importantly talk about the importance that your faith plays in the work that you do in your life. Is a pretty wild thing happening in america today. 2070 of americans belong to a religious institution, but today, that number is 50 . ■sthis has been a pretty precipitous decline in the ability or willingness of americans to go to church or to a religious institution on a regular basis and i think that has lots of broad impact on our society, but there a a lot of reasons for that. One of them is that americans just have less free time. When you have to work 70 hours toetving for your family that 40 hours would have gotten you a few decades ago, you dont have time to go to wednesday night bible study. You might not have the ability to even attend Church Services on a sunday. You can talk about church if you want or if you dont want, but it is just true that some of the leisure time activities, some of the institutions that americans found value and meaning in our less accessible when you have to work these long hours. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I mean, you know, its one of the things we talk about with the 32 hour workweek when we put that in our contract talks was the fact that we wanted to create worklife balance. Because its this country, we are the most productive i mean, sadly, i say, not proudly, we are the most productive nation in the world which means our people are working more and more hours with less and less people and something has got to give. You know, this is it is worklife balance. ewhen you are working multiple jobs to live paychecktopaycheck or you are working seven days a week, 12 hours a dayso else is sacrificed in that. And that is what ends up happening. You have to sacrifice, you know, the ability to go to church, Something Else to do on a sunday. Maybe you get a sunday off when you have not slept all week and spend the whole day sleeping. That is the reality a lot of workers face on some of the schedules they work. And you know, the thing to me that i t this we have heard my whole life about good for business is good for people, trickledowno me, wo focus i do believe congress has an obligation on Spending Priorities and regulns that may be an ugly word to people who represent business but you know, the point of this is it should be done to create more jobs. More jobs at a better rate of pay that people have more free time to live. If government is going to invest in, the trillions of dollars we invest in business that our taxpayers invest in business, those benefits should be going to workingclass people , not strictly business, and that is the problem. All this money goes to business but it never seems to funnel its way down to benefit workingclass people. Listen, i agree with you. I think we should have an interest in leisure time. I think we should have an interest in making sure that people are able to find value outside of work. Im glad they do but a lot of peop find more value by the institutions by the social clubs and churches that they affiliate and spend time with outside of work but that is just less accessible for people today and that should be a Public Policy interest of the United States congress and i appreciate this hearing allowing us to talk aboudy . Although we have a little exercise, we got a lot of questions so i will ask you to be tight with your questions. I totally agree with you. I was in for the uninsured. Folks ron johnson decent pay. I agree with that entirely. There is a little bit of confusion in what you are saying and i want to put out that confusion. When you say people are working longer to work more money, if you to 32 hours a week, they are still making the same money so for them to grow their income, they would have to either work overtime and or take a secondat work 24 7 but the people dont work 24 7. They work 40 hours a week or 41. 3 hourser week. So i think we have to be kind of clear on that and lastly, of course, productivity is not more hours to make the same money. Productivity is more work per hour and its oftentimes aided by machines in which case theres less wear and tearn the body, not to say that theres not wearandtear on the body. We think of construction workers but still, that is the whole point. When you mention that decreasing hours worked per week increases productivity, it makes total sense to me. When imcdonalds, they dont hae somebody at the front desk to take my order for a hamburger. They have a machine that i push a button on and it dispenses it and our department of labor has said that if we raise minimum wage, there will be a net loss of jobs because people automate in order to decrease their labor cost. How would, if you are speag of the service industry, why would raising the labor costs by having fewer hours worked per week for the same salary be any different than raising the minimum wage in terms of an incentiveobs by replacing workers with automation . Yes, thank you for that question. Let me just respond. Two points. Resting no increase in second the impacts that we are seeing here are not labor dis because people are able to make up that productivity in the four days that they had in the five days. That surprises me. Intuitively i am a doctor so intuitively, when i read about the nurses working shorter hours, i will just say that according to the Pennsylvania Hospital association, 30 of our impositions positions are unfilled and the hospital spent the 5 million for nurse overtime because of a nursing shortage. So i am not sure how to swear that because they work less hours but they had to pay more for overtime. These are for their nurse managers because the other nurses are on these threeday schedules and so forth. So and this was putplace twoe pandemic started. So the nurse managers are working less, not the rnsthemse. Correct, because they are not on fiveday schedules. I am almost out of time. Im going to move. We are going to get a health bill. My staff is working 80 hours a week. Any time they call me on a saturday or sunday or monday on a holiday, they are fully prepared. When you all have a big crunch time, deadline has to hit and you have to move. People still only work 32 hours . No, it is a norm. It is a question of what is your standard work week . That is all i was going toit rate among the youth and its likefor the next group, its li or 8 , much higher than ours. Theyr laws as well but you had mentioned that this kind of sugar high of more satisfaction and then it goes away but also ths a lots of work as workers need to go and temporary workers are offshore. Can you elaborate on that please . I think it is the same kind of ideas right when covid hit. We are all banking bread and doing whatever we are doing and as covid went on longer, at home or, you are sitting in your bed longer. It shows in the longterm studies that things just go back to normal. We just see that happen all over again with people. I think we see it clearly in terms of unemployment rates in the same way. The other things that occur, the disruption in the economy, etc. , did more to dictate your happiness than whether or not you work a little less . A job because of the impact upon you. That is exactly what happened in france as people lost their jobs. 8 just to make the point, thee is nothing to prevent a baseness like mr. Lee lind or Temple University hospital or a select group of employees to have a policy which would be 32 hours a week so theres no reason for a mandate per se. Companies can do that, just to make that point. Absolutely, senator. That is the point. Lets give flexibility to workers and to employers. Dont have government come in and intervene. Its going directly in the opposite position of where we should be going. Now, as for as the number of workers available in this country, i agree. We need to get more people back into the workforce for sure. If we did that, and im looking at a recent u. S. Chamber of commerce study, we would still have 3 million jobs open in this country. This proposal is going in the wrong direction. Flexibility is what we need. You this. Of all, i want you had mentioned i did not quite get the association versus causation. You say that when theres more inequality, that people work longer hours. I did not quite understand that relationship. Is that an association or causation . These are done with macroeconomic sties so we believe they are causation but they are not controlled experiments. Any comment . If you do not have a controlled extremity, you cannot find causation. Thats just statistics. I once gave a vaccine to somebody who became pregnant. Just because it happens at the same time, it is not a causation. It is an association. These are highly sophisticated studies once gavei really would disagree with the idea that we can only know something if we have experiments. I am out of time. Because people need to work more hours to keep up. Because there is a comparative dimension to the way peoples sense of i am not sure the thing of milk costs more because somebody else is making more but that is ■■c while i would. I appreciate all your work and research all these years on the lives people lead in various types of jobs. You talk a little bit about the different ways that people have a shorter workweek, taking part off every day or the whole i got several questions. Pros and cons on this. The majority in our studies are doing four days off. Over 90 of our studies are doing four days off and that seems to be a much more popular way this then shorter daily hours. A little bit of variation. One thing we looked at in our studies was whether or not having three consecutive days had a bigger impact on wellbeing and we were surprised that it doesnt. Some people taking wednesdays off to get a break in the middle of the week. Great question. Thank you. Over 70 of the businesses in our u. S. And canada sample have fewer than 25 employees so i think this is proving to be an especially appealing thing for Small Businesses. They have to do with higher levels of stress that they are seeing among their employees. I mean, one of the things is the small number of companies who are discontinuing. We are trying to figure out what is common among them. So far, the only thing we can see is they are not achieving the same levels of wellbeing increase that the ones who dont stop are. When i first became mayor of denver in 2003, we had the worst budget recession ever and one of the stopgap measures we did is he compelled all City Employees to take friday afternoons off unpaid. That was not perfect. No one likes when you are on a tight budget to have to make a budget bounce again into the month and people really liked it. To this day. To give people that friday off every week we saw an increase in sales at local restaurants which was interesting, and other retail sales went up. So theres some accessory benefit. Although i cannot tell you how excited i am to have the chief vision officer for kickstarter. I want to go to dr. Witte just because i found compelling that she was in 2018 coolest person in scotland and that her television show, libertys Great American cookbook is it still showing in scotland . It is. I need all the viewers i can get. We want to make sure we dont forget to promote that because when i was the mayor and working through that and i looked this up last night it is not a common name. It is interesting that she seemed because her brother was a journalist, internationally successful, admired journalist. Hes based in denver when i first became mayor so hes cooled me educated me within the school of hard knocks as to how to think about these things. Anyway, one argument in favor of implementing a 32 hour workweek is that, you know, these tech advancements like ai are going to make such a dramatic increa. How realistic do you thit is and when would those productivity increases begin to show or begin to have a benefit . I think the issue that we see here is people use the word ai and dont necessarily know what that means. And as someone who works in this space, we dont know yet what abilities ai is going to give us or machine learning. We are still trying to figure out what those words even really mean, so to say that theres going to be this explosion of productivity and wealth, we just dont know yet, and no one is saying i am certainly not saying it is above my pay grade people should not share in that. But mandating the reduction to a 32 hour work week is not the way to do that. Got it. I hear that. Same question to you because i think you talked a little bit more you have got into ai on a little bit of a deeper level. What is your feeling on that . Tremendous opportunity for everybody, absolutely, but the issue of distribution of wealth, the wealth dividend senator, from ai, that is what we are really talking about here. I would point the committees intention to chart one in my testimony. Productivity and compensation similarly for decades. Now, there have been gaps in different industries. Theres been time lags, senator, but market will solve this issue. Surveying will negotiate hard for 32 hours, i am sure. Others will have a take for 32 hours. We see work. But let the market decide this. Dont have congress impose this on employers. Or employees. Got it. Great. Go over just for a minute. When you were negotiating i introduced this notion of a 32 hour workweek. I mean, you have talked firsthand with large employers and large groups of. Ultimately, it was not included in the final contract, but what were some of the concerns unique concerns we have not heard before that were raised by the employers and what do you think it would take to get those employers work week that we tried when i was mayor of the city. It is roughly a 10 pay raise. ■odoing Something Like that. The level of appreciation of people having that friday afternoon off was palpable. You could feel it. What is your sense on that . I think it is just a fear of change, doing something different. I mean, you look at there are studies that have been done when workers, especially factory workers in manufacturing, when they work anything after 10 the wear and tear that you go through throughout the day, there have been a lot of studies done on that that productivity actually drops off so there are benefits to shorter working hours and as a person who has stood on a line as an 18yearold, i can vividly remember putting i would sit there. It is monotonous work, doing it over andter two hours of that, you are just you know, your mind is wandering off. Imagine doing that for 12 hours a day, seven days a week, so there are a lot of benefits to having some semblance of unfortunately, with the advances in technology, Companies Choose to eliminate jobs and squeeze more and more people, the remaining people, working more and more hours. And that just does not work. I appreciate that. I have many more questions which i will throw in in writing that i yield chair. Thank you all for being here. Thank you. Senator without objection. Mr. King, you can inform your clients that my legislation l not be passing tomorrow. They will be glad to hear that. I am glad to hear that. The point of this hearing is to raise at the congressional level something that has not been discussed here for decades after decades. I think as all of us have understood, we are living in a difficult moment we have more income and wealth inequality then we have ever had before. Senator murphy■ ■t made the interesting point that for the billionaire class, now a majority of that wealth is being not earned bynytransferred to c, unearned income, if you like. We are seeing ceos making 350 times more than their workers while 62 of the people in america are living paychecktopaycheck. We have the highest level of childhood poverty of almost any major country on earth. Many of our older people are finding it hard to retire. So we have got to start asking some fundamental questions. This is an extraordinarily wealthy country. Three people on top and according to the Rand Corporation over the last 50 organization over the last 50 years, 50 trillion has gone from the bottom 90 of the top 1 . So in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, the vast majority of our people are struggling to put food on the they are living under incredible stress. Our Life Expectancy is significantly lower than other countries and for workingclass people, they live 10 years fewer to be discussed. You are im not suggesting that a 32 hour work week is going to change all of that but one of the issues that whave g■hot to talk about is stress in this country, the fact that so many people are going to work exhausted physically and mentally. And the fact that we have not changed the fair labor standards act. This was in 1940, we came up with the 40 hour workweek, 1940. Who is going to deny that the economy has not fundamentally and radically changed over that period of timeso to suggest thao maintain that we put in place 84 years ago, it does not make a lot of sense to me so let me just conclude by thanking all of our excellent panelists. It has been a good discussion. I hope the discussion continues and thank you all very much for being here today. For any senators who wish to ask additional questionsll be due i0 business days. I ask unanimous consent to enter two statements in support of shortened workweeks including a statement from the congressman and Business Owners across the country. The meeting stands adjourned. [chatter] cspans washington journal. From washington and across the country. Ming u morning, the National Committee to preserve Social Security and medicare talks about the future of the programs in light of recent statements by President Biden and former president donald trump. And we will look at the current legal issues facing the former with mike davis. Cspans washington journal, join in the conversation live at 7 00 eastern on friday morning on cspan, cspan now or online at cspan. Org. Friday on q a, columnist Rob Henderson talks about growing up in the u. S. Foster system, the hurdles he overcame to be successful. I lived in seven homes in just shy of five years. There was a question of why does the system work this way. The child is in one place for too often, it can create issues of attachment and loyalty so i foster a foster child is with one family for six months or a year, they become comfortable and devoted to the family so often a child does not want to leave. This system has resolved this by frequently placing a child in different environments such that there are never any potential issues for loyalty or devotion our between foster families and birth relatives. And i think maybe it sounds nice in the abstract but often it introduces a lot of instability and difficulty. Rob henderson with his book troubled sunday night at 8 00 eastern you can listen to q a and all of our podcasts on our free cspan now app. Cspan now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in keep up with the days biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearings from t u. S. Congress, white house events, the court, campaigns and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips. You can stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for cspans tv networks and cspans radio. Plus a of compelling podcasts. Cspan is available now at the apple store. Visit our website at cspan. Org cspan now. Cspan now, your front row seat to washington anytime, anywhere. Health and Human Services secretary testified on the president s 2025 budget request for his department which totals one point 7 trillion of mandatory funding, just over 100 30 billion for discretionary purposes. He outlined how the proposal includes expansions for medicaid , affordable childcare and Public Health preparedness