Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing 20240702

Looks like. Cspan powered by cable. A Senate Subcommittee on a single use a plastic on the environment featuring several environments are policy experts. During the remarks witnesses and lawmakers also spoke about the effect on wildlife, the proliferation of micro plastics and food an alternative to singleuse plastics. Cooks welcome. The subcommittee on chemicals safety Risk Management Environmental Justice and oversight hearing on evaluating alternative materials for Single Use Plastics will come to order. There is a saying that waste is a design flaw. Single use plastics and utensils, two bottles in a large amount of Plastic Packaging. Single use plastics and Plastic Packaging are often not recyclable or biodegradable. They often end up as the phrase scope burned, buried, or borne out to sea. All of that waste represents a pretty large design flaw. Ideally would like all of our products to be sold in reusable containers Biodegradable Packaging damage to my plastic is in fired Many Companies to develop alternatives to fossil plastic, often marketed as a green or natural. Some are weak referred to as bio plastics that sounds like a win for everyone. Theyve been around contingent use single items on glass and aluminum. The most successful implementation of this vision consumers get the peace of mind knowing the packaging and single use items as being rias are composted. The world is more complicated than that. Its exciting to see how Many Small Companies are working to develop alternatives on the front end. It can be recycled or can be reused. Hopefully of the Many Research efforts and investor funded laboratories will have more alternatives for the goal is to understand where do we sit at this moment . What alternate is on the front end . What is truly recyclable . What is truly compostable . Does it require special laboratories or special facilities to be compostable as opposed to a compost bin in ones yard . So that leaves consumers very confused about how they are participating in a consumer economy and the best most responsible way. Today of witnesses and bring expertise to bear on this topic. According to the World Wildlife fund which is represented here today, four to 50 million tons of plastic are produced each year. A member that is expected to triple between now and 2050. Plastics are made from Climate Chaos causing fossil fuels. They generally do not biodegrade they break down into micro plastics give testimony in this committee about the challenges of micro plastic the average adult in america consuming 800 particles per estimate a credit card worth of plastic per week that ends up in our blood for in our lungs and in the breastmilk we feed to our babies. Also these facts plastics are toxins that expose a number endocrine disrupting chemicals. That is certainly a challenge as we think about our various daily activities. Our hot coffee cup we get from starbucks. What is it actually lined with . What is the result of those particles ending up in our body . We also of the production of a plastics occurring in frontline communities where it creates a toxic soap pollution that endangers the health of the people who live there. So theres many aspects to this complicated world. We look forward to learning more today and our panel of experts. We have doctor Marcus Erickson marine scientist cofounder of gyres institute. The extent of pollution and his colleagues published the microbeads and great lakes in 2013 thats an example there is a very definable product a very definable reaction we cannot live without these microbeads and our cosmetic or skincare lotions. And now they are not there so that is good. Also joining us is erin assignment Vice President at the World Wildlife fund helping companies to reduce plastic pollution. She spent 10 years working as a packaging engineers in us a lot about the packaging side and we are joined by humberto founder ceo of gsf up cycling which breaks down use plastics to remake them into new products. Thank you for the time for sharing your expertise with the committee. And i will turn it over to Ranking Member senator mullin for his remarks. Thank you and i appreciate it. I think you for allowing this and mr. Merkley has a long history of study and plastics. While we may not agree on the solution we are in search of a solution to a problem. I appreciate having his hearing. I can start by thanking our witnesses for attending this hearing we appreciate you for taking the time to be with us. It is a challenge. Sometimes thankless. You are not getting paid so we appreciate your time, time is a valuable in you do not receive that back until i do appreciate when you guys are being your as everyone knows plastics exists in almost every aspect of her daytoday life consumer goods automobile barks to Building Materials will improperly manage singleuse plastics can contribute to our Plastic Waste issues certain types of Single Use Plastics is essentially invaluable uses for us which needs to be considered discussed alternatives. Notably a few examples of these single uses include blood bags, syringes help modern healthcare remain affordable and insulate food packages to maintain hygienic standards while reducing food waste. These uses play a vital role in our society and if restrictive have detrimental impact on a daily lives. This series of hearings has made it abundantly clear combating plastic production is not a real solution for it rather than waste thats our time talking about banning plastic or mandating alternatives consumers dont want we should be discussing real marketdriven solutions. This includes state of art developments and advance recycling anyone serious about addressing Plastic Waste should support advanced recycling. This Promising Technology can address plastics that cannot be recycled by traditional methods. It has the potential to turn the whole concept of single use on its head by converting previously un recyclable plastics into valuable new commodities. Lets be clear in proving our recycling system is not when the solution but is without question eight legitimate solution that warrants all of our attention. We should not you should just be taking my word for it mr. German i would like to ask renounce consent to enter into the record to studies written from the department of energy and one from the National Academics of science. Back to that objection regrets both reports demonstrate potential value of commercializing scaled chemical recycling. That is why am very thankful to be doing today i hope i said that right sir. Mr. Kravitz appeared oklahoma and pretty close to getting it right. Gsf upscaling traveled all the way from spain to be here with us today. That is a long flight sir i get upset having to travel back and forth from oklahoma, so i appreciate that. Its it innovative chemical didl recycling company that accepts the most plastics gfs facilities distance guard fishing notes eats you are the exact type of person meeting here today because listening to you we can start getting serious about addressing Plastic Waste. So i appreciate it once again. Innovation, not misguided regulation is the correct way to move forward but i look forward to hearing from all of our Witnesses Today on ways we can facilitate this. Look more serious. With that ideal back. With that thank you very much. The researcher at the five jars institute Ocean Plastic solution leading 20 expeditions across all oceans. We have collected thousands of samples like the one that is right here right we can see its mostly micro plastics. We recently published a study looking at a 40 year trend or published paper the first 25 years in 1980 until 2005 this quartercentury the amount of trash and the world ocean increased slowly but since 2005 there has been an exponential increase to the point that today we estimate 170 trillion particles of micro plastic in the whole ocean. The point is that we need urgent action. Now, why does this matter . Let me tell a quick story. A few years ago back to kuwait id been there 30 years ago as a marine infantrymen during the persian gulf war if you remember those times in 1991 the print i returned there recently as a marine scientist. Our team surveyed the gulf of arabia but we also went deep into the desert with you and a few camel skeletons. I will show you will be doug out of one skeleton. We estimate about 2000 plastic bags in this mass and one camels gut. This adds a thousands of organisms worldwide impacted by our trash. The point i want to make here is i have been across oceans and we are not talk about cell phones or car bumpers or blood bags when you think of harm we are talking single use during plastic they are ubiquitous across the globe. But solutions are clear. First of all we are not going to recycle our way out of this problem. Its rising to the challenge. Refill it reused great entrepreneurs in the reit used in refill economy are succeeding. There successfully Living Products to consumers without packaging waste. Thousands of entrepreneurs are proving successful with rios in refill Business Models. At the same time biomaterials are promising innovation. Our Team Research what happens when bio plastic are lost and inreal environmental settings pretty want to understand how did they perform and the environment. We are talking about biodegradable bio plastics draws and thin film from bags the ocean in florida, the ocean and made a forest in maine, the everglades a desert in california. Environments over 18 months a year end a half. They are fascinating. This is our study. We took all kinds of straws and 16 weeks we found them. They function as a straw when they are used if they are lost they degrade it match the rate of degradation of a paper straw. Of biodegradable plastic films within 16 weeks same things they films are disappearing they aree degrading over time. It is practically gone the utensils the same thing for different kinds of utensils that pha and pla are practically gone. Even faster than the bamboo of wooden utensils if you look here the polystyrene polyethylene film the straw are as new as the day we got them. In closing the problem is getting worse it based on our work of the worlds ocean and land. Businesses that refill in rios are thriving and their functional alternatives to some kind of packaging. I would be happy to answer any questions you might have thank you. X thank you very much doctor erickson. Its a fastened display you brought up much of. Appreciated and awed. Please make sure your microphone is turned on too. Thank you for that. Good morning mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and ranking berms of the committee my name is erin and im the Vice President and head of plastic business at World Wildlife fund. Wonder thank you for the opportunity to testify on such an important topic. One has quickly become a top Environmental Concern for Many Americans thats growing up Plastic Solutions. Plastic solutions can be found in nearly every corner of the planet from our city sidewalks. As you mentioned this enormous amount of Plastic Solution entering our oceans every year. Thats a dump truck amid a plastic pollution. Significant toll on public health, vulnerable communities. Also harms on that most important ecosystems like coral reef and mangrove. Less you act now the trajectory of this will just worsen it will double the amount of plastic we produce and triple the amount of it entering our oceans by 2040. It is undeniable plastic is the versatile material that keeps her food freshener medication safe. However recurrent revamp plastic as a single use resource and linear system are products and packaging are created, used, thrown away but the plastic pollution crisis is taught as it is no longer economically, socially or environmentally sustainable to prioritize the production of single use products no matter where they are made and what they are made of. All Natural Resources or finance. We are taking these materials faster. We look to the future of innovations we need to amend the broken system no matter what the material is. This means getting rid of the things we dont mean substantially the single inputs in the attornment of an alternative when appropriate alternative but chose to replace patrick goodby paper, metal, glass or bile basement trip however no matter the material we must always be thoughtful and thorough in considering the use of alternatives so we avoid the negative tradeoffs. All materials have environmental and social impacts. It is critical we take necessary ideas that have stronger environmental and social benefits when compared to the conventional plastics. It is important to know for example both virgin glass and metal have intensive extraction processes for their overall sustainability performance is largely tied to ability to recapture the ability. If you look for solutions to reduce and replace you might still need a version of plastic but does not need to come from fossil fuels. Jacob gave alternative resources such as seaweed, sugar cane and other plants they offer an opportunity to decouple from fossil resources achieve greenhouse glass savings when produced in accordance to best practices. To realize this potential we have to file a no onesizefitsall for bio based plastics. Shared set of principles that can guide Design Choices how they are ground effectively recycle or composted. It is critical we Pay Attention to food security, labor practices, deforestation and conversion impacts on Water Quality is both necessary recycling or composting for the recovery of these. Policy conversations around all materials continued to be essential. Independent of any alternative material solution. We did supporting infrastructure and policy contact with the broken system. That includes assistance to collect rios recycling compost. Anything produce. In knights its leading businesses are setting around recycling ill be out of pedal later today in this room with w wf and cocacola, walmart and mars talk about the ambition we are seeing for many private sector including calls for enabling government policies. United states has the opportunity to be a Global Leader in this. In the end that we need everybody to do their part speak debbie wf hopes todays conversation will pave the way for further Development Implementation of robust policies in the state. Policy is a call attention to the consideration advantages of production rios and other plastic alternatives as we seek to address the problem of Plastic Solution for a circular economy is unsustainable if we have a way forward when we are working together. It begins by reevaluating use of disposable plastic in a system that prioritizes Environmental Health and Environmental Justice. This reality may seem an ambitious but there are policies and changes in technologies you can used to move forward today and create a more efficient system for the Healthy Planet and future generations. Thank you. Thank you very much and we are going to turn to, welcome. Good morning. Chairman merkley, Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee i am founder ceo of recycling. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee today. I will discuss three aspects of my companys innovation that allowed. First we can up cycle all types of user plastics second, we deliver substantial improvements in energy and Environmental Performance with the Plastic Recycling process. Third, we could a strong economic for communities to keep user plastics are the waste drinks and environment. Our first breakthrough takes advantage for proprietary materials commonly known as carbon nanotubes by adding our motility 2 tons of use plastic in the process and in municipal or industrial entity will now be able to up cycle 80 plus of used to plastics including mixed, dirty and contaminate plastics that are currently too hard to recycle and otherwise end up in landfills, incinerators are lost in their environment. Examples of this include packaging material for about 45 of the global as well as medical devices, automobile parts, and even integrated plastics such as Marine Debris. Recently validated this in our demonstration plant using fishing nets collected from local fishermen. Our Nano Materials enable the process to a occur at roughly half the return for a 50 degrees fahrenheit considered 800 degrees fahrenheit. And with the 30 60 improvement in plant performance. Thus a significant a reducing reducingenergy costs and associd Greenhouse Gases per unit of output. Just as cap consequential the process also captures dixie 99 such as as well as other contaminants of major health and Environmental Concern. These contaminants can be segregated. Our second breakthrough takes advantage of proprietary mix biological enzymes. By placing these enzymes in direct contact with used to plastics plastic back into its original. Unlike any other method our process takes place at Room Temperature without the added heat or Energy Consumption and without chemical based solvent pretreatment that other processes require it. We have proven the process cannot only handle plastics soda bottles but also plastics that are otherwise expensive and or completely mechanical recycled for example start from packaging materials or electronic Plastic Waste. We are currently redeveloping similar treatments for polyethylene and packaging materials. The output of both of our innovations is high quality thick economically compete with new feedstock on fossil fuels. In other words plastic back to plastic. Our midterm objective is to decouple plastic production from fossil based sources. Just as important up cycling abuse plastics can occur at a profit. Creating economic incentives for local communities to construct affordable up cycling facilities to collect and convert all of their plastics into valuable feedstock. At a net savings to their budget rather than at a cost. In his summer income are up Cycling Technology innovations are able to process all types of user plastics include integrated plastics like Marine Debris and produce high quality feedstock that can readily be converted into new plastic. We can perform bio somatic up cycling at Room Temperature and can significantly reduce the heat needed. Driving substantial reduction in Energy Consumption and associated air pollution and greenhouse gas. And we can capture and segregate chemical contaminants and use plastics but for example. [background sounds] thank you to all of our witnesses,s much appreciated. I wanted to start out, dr. Eriksen, when i was a kid we always referred to wax paper cups. Paper cups today are mostly not coated in wax, theyre coated in plastic. Is there a particular reason that for, at least for cold drinks we couldnt return to the wax paper cups . [inaudible] i see no reason why we couldnt return to some of those materials we grew up with. Same here, you know, a wax coating on paper does function as a moisture barrier. So, yes, we could. Is and, actually, they still exist today. You look at the packaging for, like, lettuces and cabbages in the agricultural sector, you see waxcoated cardboard being utilized frequently as a water barrier. I want to turn to your powerful display of what you found in the gut of a single camel or from inside the skeleton of a single camel. Ive seen similar displays from many marine species. Is it fair to say that if were looking at the gut of, well, ive seen them in dolphins and sharks and so forth, that we also see a huge often accumulation in marine birds as well of, in the oceans of affecting our wildlife . We do see similar impacts of singleuse plastics on other marine life especially. Many colleagues whenever a whale washes ashore on the west coast of the United States, they to do look in the gut, and they frequently find, you know, plastic from other objects, fishing gear sometimes. I got my start on midway [inaudible] i went there the actually surveying history of the bases that were there, and i stomaching bled upon, you know, hundreds of stumbles upon hundreds of albatross skeletons and just pulling out of them, you know, bottle caps, cigarette lighters, all kinds of random fragments of plastics. So, yes, the impacts are not just the cam camels in the desert, but here at home. If these, looks like mostly bags, i think you saidsome. Yes, sir. And you pointed out in your chart for bern alternatives better alternatives a variety of alternatives to plastic that biodegrade better, and you sent those into different types of ecosystems that in real lime, i think you said forests, deserts, and im not sure where else everglades, three ocean settings. And had those bags that are, that you found in that a camelling gut, if they had been made out of these other materials, would they have biodegraded and not accumulated in the stomach in the same fashion . Im confident if these were made from some of these new polymers out there, that i would not have this here today, that it wouldnt exist. But isnt it the case that some bioplastics, although they tart from materials that are not fossil fuels, produce results that are very similar in the final product as with the, as with the fossil plastics . Bioplastics is a very big umbrella. You can actually take sugarcane and other materials and make polyearth lean, pet, there is a whole group of biodegradable polymers. Its very different. Its a big umbrella. It casts a wide net of materials. The biodegrade bl materials are are are the ones that we studied here that did not persist in these six different environments that we tested. Ms. Simon, so we have this big umbrella of alternative products, some of which biodegrade better than others as worldwide live investigated and found World Wildlife investigated and found advice for policymakers about what type of products might be a good substitute on the front end for singleuse plasticsesome. Yeah, absolutely, thank you. So i would begin with you have to the look at a couple of things in thinking about biowaste and biodegradable materials. In regards to biowaste, we are sourcing it from something that grows, agricultural products. You have to assess a different set of environmental and social risks and Economic Risks around land use, water. But there are absolutely ways to assesses that and mitigate that risk. Its just about understanding and addressing those up front. Now, if that feed stock or source of, you know, renewable resource is going into that bioplastics and it is designed to be biodegradable, its our recommendation that it ends up in industrial composting. So in formal infrastructure. Because while these the can often break down, it is concerning that it will just result in more plastic ending up many nature because people believe it will just break down. And it requires a lot of different criteria a for something to break down. It has to have microorganisms, uv light, a certain level of, you know, humidity. And so and temperature is really important. So you just want to make sure that you are designing materials for the infrastructure we have so we can get that material back, right . Circularity of materials is about driving towards another resource, and if you go into an industrial composting facility, youd be able to get back resources like really nutrientrich soil from that composting process versus just allowing them to to be littered into nature. So weve already gone through my five minutes. It passes very quickly. Im going to chair to vice chair mullen. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Ive got a series of questions, but i want to circle back. Did cow say most did you say most [inaudible] is singleuse plastics, sir . Yeah, senator. These are all thats why i cut many half the Research Paper we published, it is all plastic bags, mostly large plastic bags do bags bags arent recycle will be . Technically, so. Thats what i thought. We put them in recycle bins all the time, and we send them im just saying we take recyclable stuff all the time. Youre shaking your head now, but that isnt one of the things that d. C. Says do not put in recyclables. Yeah. They are technically recyclables, but they are not recycled. We do not have access. Its problematic but its not designated a single use though. Some of your health care products, your stuff that youre not allowed to use. I mean, technically, im not getting into the weeds, i just find that interesting, because i didnt know that. I thought we were recycling our bags when we put them in the blue bins all over washington, d. C. Theyre highly problematic. I have no idea how you traveled back with that. Im assuming you must not have been flying commercial air, because thatd be a heck of a thing to have to check. [laughter] a while ago when the chairman was asking about the stomach and the other products that would break down faster in pa president obama lean life or in the camels gut concern in marine life, you were shaking your head, in fact, you bit your lip. So if im reading body language right, which i used to have to do all the time, i would say that you probably disagree with that a little bit. I so kind of talking about what i was highlighting before, materials breaking down is a very specific process. It requires a certain is set of temperature, relative humidity, microorganisms, excuse me right. Oxygen. This is why a biodegradable material wont break down in a landfill, right in. Right. And so thats the same issue in a gut. What im saying is youre not certain that the alternative cant be sure. Thats why we recommend infrastructure versus hoping itll work out. Which this are brings me back to my point about alternative recycling because, you know, i remember when we had all paper bags, and people were, like, this is bad for forests. We dont want to be doing that. We need to get rid of paper bags and go to plastic. And plastic was the clean alternative. I think we all remember that. And so what i dont want to do here is have another solution that we think is the new solution, and we actually dont know if its accurate or not. I think we need to know because, obviously, we have two people here that disagree on if itll break down or if it doesnt break down, but one thing that we can agree with is we can find an a alternative to how to have singleuse plastics become recyclable. And i think thats where we need to go back into which, rah cra vets, did i cra vets, did i say that right . Ive trying to get there. Kind of what your company is doing, right . Yes, we conduct [inaudible] on plastics. The technology is basically able to add whats missing to the mix, so were enabling by guiding the carbon links within that scope. And in the thematic, were breaking hit down it down regardless without energy or solvent treatments. And its my understanding youre launching your first fully commercial developed gsfs Carbon Nanotube Technology . Is that right . Yes. Its coming out this month this. So were working with europes largest advanced recycling facility, one of the best ones out there actually. And what were doing is enabling that process to have an optimized plan that can be implemented at scale globally. Here in the states we can bring that science to local communities on their plastic needs, create value for that plastic before it reaches the environment. So what milestones are you hitting to keep this technology from coming to the United States . So we could start having conversations of bringing the technology to the states probably by mid of next year once we have so id like to be performance and datadriven. So once we have that industrial scale plant up and running, then we can say, okay, what are the needs and the types of plastics we want to launch here in the states with, start having those conversations. We could talk about a licensing package for local communities where they say, okay, we have this amount, this volume, these types of plastics that we want to process and do that at scale with a lab signed up already to optimize at a 3040 volume. Right. I think this committee would be interested in knowing when that starts happening what barriers youre facing so maybe we could learn together. When i was growing up, wwf if meant World Wrestling federation, so its totally changed my concept of that meaning now, so thank you all for being here. I yield back. Thank you, senator mullen. Chair carper. Thanks. As it turns out, weve been wrestling with this for a while [laughter] and one of the things i have a question, im going to ask a question in a minute on ms. Simon on infrastructure for material systems, but first a question, i just look for where do we agree request. Its easy to find disagreement around this place, but just very briefly, each of you, what do you think is a major point where you agree . Very briefly, major point of agreement. I know youre probably stunned, but im looking for a point where the three of you agree on something. Where we both agree on something . The three of you. We agree theres a need for urgent action to solve this problem, for sure. And i think were also all in agreement that the private sector is stepping up to the challenge. I think were going to disagree no, im asking where you agree. Where we agree . You answered my question. Go ahead, ms. Simon. I think we all agree we need to start with reduction. Did you say reduction . Uhhuh. All right. Mr. Crave is vets. Kravetz. I agree we have to face the challenge, and i think Companies Like mine are stepping up and developing solutions that can be scalable. All right, good, thanks. Ms. Simon, heres a question for you. Im going to lead into it and say over the past couple of years this committee has become, as you know, deeply engaged on a variety of issues, and one of those is material circularity. This includes improving our reuse and recycling systems to the insure that valuable materials that could be turned into new products and not just lost to our landfills. Our pollution and,ing frankly, incineration. Yesterday, along with senator boozman, republican from arkansas, i combined, i cohosted a textile recycling round table right here where youre sitting, and we talked a lot about where we agree as folks from different backgrounds. And and, but, ms. Simon, in your testimony you mentioned a similar situation where some biobased plastics arent compatible with existing recycling streams and others are not. Question, what supporting infrastructure needed is needed for recycling streams so that all materials are compatible, and what should the federal governments role be in establishing and scaling this infrastructure . Go ahead. If. I think whats really important is that we have criteria around what can go into our infrastructure. So whether it is coming from biobased sources or other alternatives, that we have clear design criteria so that a when that material ends up in the facility no matter what the technology is, it can be cleanly reprocessed in a way that can produce high value secondary materials. And so for biobased, that could be something coming from sugarcane and then going into a. E. T. Bottle, like you mentioned, and then going into the recycling facility, or it could be a paj going into a compost facility, but all designed for that infrastructure its going into. So design guidelines, and then following that we need policies that set those guidelines and create a funding mechanism to make sure that theres Financial Sustainability for those facilities to keep recycling and composting that material. All right, thank you. Question again for the entire panel. Well start off with you, mr. Kravetz, and come to your right. Youll be our leadoff hitter on this question. You ready . Earlier this year our committee that meets right here in this room, the environment and public works committee, unanimously advanced two pieces of bipartisan recycling legislation. One of those bills is, i think its called the recycling and composting accountability act, and it would require the Environmental Protection agency to collect and make publicly available data on recycling and composting rates across the country. Thats what until do. Question starting with you, mr. Kravetz, would you please share the importance of increased Data Collection on addressing the plastics crisis and considering Material Alternatives . With yes. So collection is key, of course, to avoid plastic from from reaching the environment and the oceans. Then you need to set up all the infrastructure to move plastic and get this all set up to go to advanced recycling facilities that can handle every type of plastic, not just single waste streams. And thats important to understand. The ability to tackle all the plastics, solve the problem of having to sort everything upstream. All right. Same question, ms. Simon, if you would, please. Were proud to have supported the recycling and composting accountability act. Thank you. We look forward to working with the committee further on that. But we believe the transparency is key to drive change, right . Whether you are transparent in what youre making and how you can manage it or in delivering on strategies, right . We start up a problem called resource plastics who have companies build some transparency into what theyre making, what format its in, where it goes in the world and what happens to it, can and that way they can develop the right strategies to address their Plastic Waste footprint. So it means we can actually directly drive improvement on the impact by having that transparency. Itll be the first, key step in creating a plan for the u. S. All right. Same question, very briefly, if you will. Recycling is essential on the front en, compostability is essential. Good. Thanks so much. Thank you all. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And now, senator cap toe, welcome. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today. Very much appreciate this. Id like to ask mr. Kravetz a question about i understand what youre doing would be under the term advanced recycling. Are you, are you taking, like, singleuse plastickings and making them plastics and making them more advanced plastic materials . How is that process without getting too technical . Okay, thank you for the question. Yes. Advanced recycling is basically three families of technologies that take different types of plastics and break them to back to feed stock to reduce new prediction. What my company does is in that [inaudible] space enables a to operate economically and efficiently by adding what we think is missing in the mixes, which is carbon additives. Thats one technology. A Second Technology is the ability to break down any type of plastic into it Building Block so we can make new mastic again. Can we do that thousand . Technically its possible, yes. Is it affordable . Yes. Is and so i guess my big question on all of this, these issues, because we have who two recycling bills that were hoping to get all the way through, and theyre or sort of theyre pretty easy. You know, i live in Rural America, and we have a lot, we dont have the opportunity for recycle rabbit through our municipalities too much. Its not widespread. How do we get this topic down to the everyday user of plastic . I know the Big Industrial users are probably the ones that were looking at here. But how do you, how do you relate this very sort of technical issue to everyday people whether theyre in the ag community or a Rural Community . So ill start with you, dr. Eriksen. How do we communicate this pop, the challenges to Rural America so, yeah. Yeah. I think you can explain to people some of the human Health Concerns and the research is coming out very quickly showing the impacts of micro and nanoplastics. I think telling people about the impacts on wildlife and the impact on our pocketbook, what the9 there there what the true costs are to try to capture plastics and bring it back to the waste stream. I think you talk about the human health, the wildlife impacts but also the bottom line, what it costs them and their communities. All right. Ms. Simonsome. Yeah, just building on that, i think in that communication we help to educate them, we empower them with easy actions, right . We today require some sort of decoder ring to figure out what goes in your recycling bin, and it needs to be easier to be able to do e. So we need to design in more standardization to make it so that its it is not up to the consumer to figure out how to recycle or compost their materials. So if were looking at landfills, for instance, which have all kinds of different waste going in, is there a movement now . Ill get to you again, mr. Kravetz, on that first question, is there a, availability working with the landfill owners to be able to successfully separate out and headache that an economic model as well . Coming from landfillsesome. Uhhuh. I have not done that research to understand what would happen if we recaptured material from a landfill, but i would say theres probably a lot of high value material in our landfills today, and considering how resourceconstrained we are, it would probably be interesting to research that, but i dont have that data for you, im sorry. Okay. Mr. Kravetz, ill give you that question, the one i just asked, and then the one before if you want to give me some how do you translate this down to the yessing consumer regular consumer in terms of the importance of this . So i do agree with what has been said before and educating the consumers. I do think premise of my company is that plastic is valuable and recycling companies, advanced recycling companies will have to pay for plastic. So making plastic reusable material avoids or changes the concept of being waste. So if you consider Plastic Waste, okay, so were throwing it away. But if it as has value and its the reusable, then the mindset might change that we can actually start recycling. Okay. And then, of course, you need to build the infrastructure and start recycling. Right. At scale. But the shift in thinking of this as waste or used resign will be recyclable plastic, i think, is key. If we look at what weve done with paper, i mean, paper is looked at as recyclable, i think, you know . When you see newspapers or any kind of paper. It used to be when that started in the 70s, youd see a little print on the bottom of your stationery, this paper is recyclable. That was unusual. Now we just, i think, i dont think we assume everythings been recycled, but a lot of it has been. Do you see, envision a time when plastic with advanced recycling could get to that point . Yes, for sure. Thats whats going on. Ive been in this for a few years now, been going to different events throughout the world, and now the whole value chain is talking. And this is massive collaboration between plastic transformers, brands and advanced recycling companies. So i think were getting this. Finish now the technologies have to scale, Companies Like mine that have developed Disruptive Technologies from taking charge of all the plastics that can be recycled, not just single stream, i think will make a difference. Thank you. Thank you all. Senator whitehouse. Whoa, senator whitehouse. Thank you, chairman. Just for the record, i dont think plastic bags are recyclable in d. C. Theyre not in rhode island. Plus the recycling rate completely stinks. Theres some plastics that go in the bin that are 0 recycled, there are others i think the top is 20 , and the average is single digits, like 8 or 9 of what you actually put in the bin to recycle. Getting recycled. So its very, very much a failed system. Almost to the point where we put consumers into the role of being unwitting actors in a play in which recycling takes place except at the end of the day its faux recycling. It doesnt actually take place. And when you look at the other side of the market, if you look at singleuse plastics, were lucky to hit 2 Recycled Content in how singleuse plastics, disposable plastics are manufactured. So clearly both on the manufacturing side at 22 and on the 2 and on the alleged recycle side at a 8 or 9, these are catastrophic failures when you consider all the effort thats put into maintaining, ill put air quotes around it, recycling. I think if its going to change, the economic signals have to change. To moment the moment it is cheaper to buy brand new, virgin plastic and make your plastic bags and make your spoons and make your containers then it is to use recycling, and so, hence, 2 president. 2 . If that economic signal shifts, then suddenly recycling works. Because if theres one recall of capitalism, its the profits imperative. And its really uphill sledding for a company to make economic decisions that are against its best interest with. So i think we need to, frankly, put a, like, recycling fee on virgin plastic that is destined for single use. And that will balance the market, and that will also provide a good price signal to help Companies Like yours, mr. Kravetz, to be able to have a Better Business model, because thousand people are really looking now people are really looking. If you dont send that price signal, then public pressure becomes really important. So thank you, chairman merkley, for holding this hearing. Thank you, chairman carper, for your leadership in this space, because the public pressure matters. I would single out unilever, the enormous europeanbased company, for what i think at this point is the best corporate pledge so far thats kicking in in 2025. Heir going to take a kilo of Plastic Waste out of the environment for every kilo of plastic they put into the environment through their business. And that does, obviously, give them a big incentive to reduce the amount of plastic they put out into the system and to look for alternatives. But it also creates a market on the other side, because theyre going to have to buy mastic back. Theyre plastic back. Theyre not going to seven unilever employees around the world to scoop up plastic themselves. Theyre going to the create supply chains to getaways plastic off of the shores of countries where plastic is shin deep in the rack line of the coast because of so much coming ashore from the ocean. Theyre going to i remember landing in mali with john mccain, and we were driving through the airport into downtown, and we went by a big field. And i turned to john and i said, ive never seen so many crows in my life in a field. Do you think those are crows or ravens, or what are they . Because there was thousands and thousands of things flapping out in the field. It wasnt birds at all, it was plastic bags. And in mali, the standard means for carrying thing things for carrying things around is a black plastic bag with, and the field was just filled with them to the point where i thought an enormous block of flock of crows or ravens had come in. When unilevers pledge goes live, it suddenly makes sense for somebody to have a pick up all that plastic and take it in to unilevers ply chain. I think its its important we add an economic conversation about aligning the economic incentives, because otherwise charity isnt going to help. Incentives make the difference. Let me just ask ms. Simon to comment briefly on that, and then ill yield back. Yeah, i agree. We need to create financial incentives in the system that will not only drive the level the Playing Field for companies that are already out there trying to redesign and rethink the materials theyre using reducing, starting with reduction to be able to do that and move into reuse systems and into monomaterials that are easier for recycling formats that are easier to recycle. That incentive will also when theyre paying for that through whatever policy mechanism when thats drs or epr, it allows it pays for the infrastructure and the technology in the infrastructure to return secondary materials that are high quality, and that becomes the new supply chain for them, right . They can then pull that material and put it into their products of Recycled Content instead of having to go back and buy more virgin. Thank you, chairman. Thank you very much. Senator mullen want to ask a followup question on this. Not really a followup question, just put this whole debate about bags being recycle will be, plastic bags are she recyclable. They tell you where to drop them off, they tell you, their web site say, quote, have you ever been unsure about which items can be recycled or which items are considered too hazardous to i put in the trash bin . With new where it goes tools, we can help take the guesswork out. Drop off plastic bags wrapped in film, they should be clean and empty. To fine the nearest dropoff location near you, please visit plastic film recycling web site. My point is on all this is they are recyclable. Its ridiculous that we dont know whats actually recyclable, yet we have all these solution ises. Maybe we should start with what is recyclable and whats not. Start at that point, and then we can take all the guessing out of it. We are going to continue some exploration of these issues. No one here has mentioned some of the exploration of using products made from for example theres folks working with mushrooms to be able to reduce products. People working with seaweed. Doctor erickson and ms. Simon are either of you familiar with those alternatives for single use plastic sin is the promise there . Yes there is tremendous promise. Senator whitehouse said about capturing some of the negative on the backend. These plastics get lost in the environment i call them the bags the escape artist. They get out and they have true costs while they are technically recyclable there is such a cost to collecting them, sorting them, transporting them, landfilling them, trying to recycle them many get lost in the environment and cause harm. There are so Many Solutions on the front end that are mitigating those problems. Like some biomaterials we didnt study what happens when we get lost in different environments, and ocean environments and landbased environments. Some really performed very well. Some pha ph fees integrate as fast as of wood and paper. But during the utility they have the functionality as a plastics. The water vapor barrier and packaging products. So there is a promise of the new biomaterials and again i should say bio plastics is a large umbrella of bio based tickets and biodegradable once the new materials are very promising. X yes seaweed is especially interesting and has net environmental benefits through it with there has been a lot of exploration and sourcing seaweed for feed, fuel, and material. Today there are converters theres nothing at scale that matches or products but theres things that are being explored. Mushrooms two. There has been a lot of transport packaging even explored in the Electronics Companies because of the cushion properties. For any of these sources we are looking at can you sustainably source it in a way thats beneficial to the environments and communities. There are methods to assess that. Are they technically viable to meet the performance criteria not every feedstock every prop agricultural needs there can be recovered and eight system we can get them back and use them again whether that is through recycling or composter. So mrs. Simon you mentioned metal as an alternative. One of the things that came up recently that surprised me was often aluminum cans or code on the inside with a layer of plastic is that accurate . Or when i buy beer and soda or even water in bottles as it coated on the inside of plastic . Whats it depends was being packaged in it. Ive its highly acidic and corrosive. Sometimes they have to line it. Water is not . Lets water should not have a waiting for. How about beer . Not quite sure on that but i dont believe abeer has a coating in it. Could you get us more information about what is coded and what isnt . Mexican i dont have it with me. Perhaps on this is recycled thats coded . Is just melting in the process. Becomes vapors that basically get exhausted and affect the local community . That could be if is not good cycling facilities. I want to turn back to the bio plastics. When you talk about them breaking down, and my head when i see something mad avenue bamboo or some other wood and a product and mike okay, nature has been dealing for a billion years a pretty comfortable stop going to break down into stuff that has various chemicals in it that will affect the environment environment. But am concerned with the bio plastics that break down in these different experiments they become married and very timely but could they become micro plastics that might still affect the ecology different than if they were made from cellulose . That very much depends on the additives but depends on the properties you want with laminate so you can see they were limiting different biomaterials to increase the water vapor barrier. As those begin to do great as the biomaterial to grades at theres a metal plate are polyurethane thats going to reduce micro plastics if there are additives uv inhibitors for example or other chemicals those may also leech off as the biomaterial migrates it depends what additives are putting into it. In some cases there are no additives for example the one distraught here is for the film you can use pure material in some packaging applications. Went to grades there are no toxic legacy materials left behind books that should be our goal. Yes. Senator carper . Thanks again for a terrific hearing and again for all of you joining us. It is timely and important. Im going to pick on you again. But no malice intended. If you ask my colleagues here in the senate about greed we would not know what to say you asked this committee they note most of my colleagues including me at one time would not have any idea what theyre talking about. As you know about every 10 years it updates its guide for the use of environmental marketing claims its also known as green guys the green guides provide guidance of producers to label their products they cant label them as recyclable they can label them as compostable or label them as environmentally friendly. Unfortunately the green guides have not been updated i am told since 2012. So that is like 11 years, a lot has changed in 11 years. The market for new packaging alternatives is rapidly evolving as well. Ive two main fractures making claims sometimes about whether an alternative package is recycled or composter. Got to see colleagues and i on this committee. On that trade commission to update the green guides its been a long enough it has been too long. Help reduce consumer confusion what types of products are recyclable compostable and more sustainable . Yes we too are happy the green guides are being updated much of my testimony echoes what we wrote in the green guides we need to evaluate where materials are coming from and have a verification and accountability. The green guides can start by ensuring materials are claimed to be recyclable, compostable or more sustainable actually are. This means allowing only specific format a majority of the country is access to recycling can be called recyclable not just technical recyclable that access to with compostable we need a definition that ensures consumers know where to put compostable items. That compost are industrial or summit picks them up from your house or home compostable work according to standards but those products will break down in anyones backyard. Thank you. Thank you for that. I like to quote winston churchill. Winston churchills a great hero of world war ii carried the british people on his back to a victory over the germans. Gosh less than a year mickey was just a hero. The voters of Great Britain threw him out. And they put somebody else in as prime minister. Ensign churchill was leaving downton street moving out the press was there and one of them said for you mr. Churchill is this the end . Is this the end . And he said famously its not the end, its not the beginning of the end, this is the end of the beginning the end of the beginning. Lenny kravitz quite a wellknown entertainer in his own right. Once had a hit that paraphrase churchill and i think the name of his hips i dont if he is a one hit wonder or not i think he had a couple. One in the more popular songs to the lyric it ate over until its over. This debate in the conversation on the topic will be going on for a while. I will lead me into my question on federal legislative action. We have enjoyed i think i speak for my colleagues and me. We have enjoyed the hearing about each of you respective efforts to consider alternatives to plastic within your respective fields and industries. Here is my question. What we know theres a whole suite of policy options available to us would each of you to share the top legislative action that you believe congress should take within say it the next year to help our country address the plastics crisis . I will respond first to that question. Thank you for the question. So i think the criteria of first and foremost has to be performancebased. So not looking at specific technology but compared to other types of technologies thats when innovative Companies Like mine current rise to the challenge of meeting those standards. That is one thing. Maybe the second thing is the materials when we are talking not report replacing one material with another one we do have to look at the total Carbon Footprint that each material has. There are materials better than plastics others that are not. So lets not fall into a blame game but try to figure out with performancebased technologies and full Carbon Footprint of competitive materials which are best for which situation. Right thank you. Same question what maybe would e the top legislative Action Congress should take in the next year or so to help our nation address the plastics crisis . Because i believe extended producer responsibility can really connect the creation of these materials to matter what they are to their end of life through transparency, designed designstandardization and finanl models can really help us to reimagine the linear economy so everyone can have access. We can make sure were getting those materials back and increasing Economic Growth rate effect later today ill be in the same room talked with Corporate Partners and they will be advocating for responsibility also. Thanks. Doctor erickson . Okay, i wrote epr i think it epr bill allows the companies who are making materials that become a waste participate financially in a Recovery Management of those materials. Also a bottle bill and National Bottle bill i think would go a long way to getting back the material from the environment too. I agree thank you. Abraham lincoln was once asked what is the role of government . He replied famously the government is to do for the people what they cannot do for themselves. On this committee we are often times looking for how do we harness Market Forces in order to achieve something good for the people of this country and for the good of the world. We talked about incentives and so forth through the course of this hearing im always looking for ways to harness Market Forces if anyone has a thought a closing thought on Market Forces i would welcome that. In this issue for two decades have met so many young entrepreneurs and innovators on the front and creating businesses innate reuse and refill economy. And biomaterials those Market Forces i think it reduce the amount of waste that is in the waste stream especially plastics. Those two Market Drivers using Business Models are powerful. Thank you. Yes i would agree with that i would build on innovation is not going to just happen and materials in the technology is going to be insistence manage them. We have seen the shared economy really grow cleaning technologies for reuse systems expanding, so i believe there is a lot a desire to solve this with unique and innovative solutions. Between new technology to recycle and systems for reuse we have a Good Opportunity to get there. There is a lot of science that said the bad will happen if we pull all the levers that we have. Okay thank you. I think the concept of changing waste plastic is the into usable plastics is key. Incentive towards consumers to change this is key. Industry wide theres a lot more collaboration going on. Anywhere from the sign for recycling to change and the in e concept that something can be recycled that is not recyclable or something is recyclable but its not really recycled. That is going to make a difference. Incentives have began giving value to the plastic so it does not end up in the environment in the first place and build on technologies that can scale and change plastics. Think it mr. Chairman this has been timely. And i think well attended. We appreciate very much all the work you do and sharing your thoughts with us. Thank you chairman carper you have quoted churchill and lincoln. But what reverberates in my mind is a quote from that esteemed public Leader Center carper switches to more of what works is less of what doesnt. [laughter] that sums up a strategy. I want to return to a moment to this conversation about plastic bags. Whether they are single use or not. Nationally, less than 10 of plastic bags are recyclable. Very few places you can put the bat plastic bags and no winded the wind blows them out they dont take them what happened to stores in some places that you can bring them back to us we will find a way to be sent somewhere theyll be turned into new plastic bags possibly or possibly plastic lumber is what i am seeing. But essentially at this moment it is inefficient to recycle plastic bags they do not get recycled. So they end up going into the landfills. They get blown away and end up in the ecosystem as we see from this. Ill keep coming back to that display think about all the other pictures ive seen a plastic building up in the guts of turtles, seals, dolphins, whales, et cetera i know youve added camels which ive not seen before on land. I week everett seen a problem where essentially animals are digesting the wood and ending up with the same sort of problem in their gut . Rocks you think they forge on wood on the trees and leaves and die just as those just write many host stock animals are eating plant material in cellulose and digesting it when they can are passing when they cant. Those natural measures are consumed for millions of years this is material that does not work. Thank you to my point you never see a picture of a got cut open thats full of wood because animals have evolved in a worldly of plant based material they eat and digest it or they dont eat it. Though it is not an issue. One of things we do know is often globs of plastic look like they may possibly be more edible items for example sea turtles inc. They are jellyfish and so forth. And so one of the advantages of trying to find cellulose to based products is one, on the front and they are not made from fossil gas but our fossil gas and methane gas have a huge impact on climate and the distribution of the gas before the plastic is ever made in the first place. And then under the existing systems of chemical recycling they use a tremendous amount of heat. You may have a different system will get back to you in a couple years and see what weve learned about the application of that technology. But essentially the strategy produces another round of carbon and basically chemical fumes that are highly cancercausing. And then they are basically burned and you have another round of carbon production and pollution see of three rounds of carbon production and pollution and basically utilizing plastic in the first place which is why we are holding this hearing about alternatives to plastic. I was struck that last week britain said its utensils are going to be non plastic utensils. Are either of you familiar with that . Are they allowing bio plastics returning to wood . I am not familiar with that. Noaa my last trip overseas when i saw were all wood i am not sure whether actually implemented. Mainland europe has moved in this direction as well. I didnt look up what it would cost if we were to utilize wood here. Right now plastic utensil cost about 2 cents is what i found. I would utensil. The idea on the front and if we avoid fossil gas if it does end up discarded but does not cause proms in the ecosystem Plastic Products cause. A bag made of paper that is cellulose or plastic i would vote for the bag made of paper. Because cellulose does not produce the problems because the world has been planting materials and part of the world as you put it from the beginning. Or anything youd like to add on the upfront next i would say we move to alternative material like forest base cellulose we should be doing so in a thoughtful manner. Recycled content or force Stewardship Council we note those working for us are manage to be renewable for future generations. Where the products of the most commonly used in this regard is bamboo because bamboo can grow very quickly. On plantation cell production as opposed to harvesting natural forest before it would. That is the responsible thinking is what youre pointing too. It just has to be you have to address any land conversion to the bamboo plantation first was but theres ways to mitigate those risks. As you know every strategy has pointers to evaluate all of them collectively in order to understand the broader picture of minimal impact. We wrestle with this and renewable energy. Solar panel takes up land space a wind turbine can kill birds induce disturbance. It requires electric lines. There is nothing that does not have an impact. Our goal is to find the minimum most sustainable strategy. That is the undertaking. Is there is anything else you like to add . Where is the harm in the environment and human health . Chemistry is with those additives. I often talk about the upstream as you have. On the front and the reusable materials the refill, reviews and it its a bio base or biodegradable materials just to capture those costs. Its more expensive on the front end into the total lifecycle assessment. The true cost of managing all of this waste and the harm it caused that really warrants the front and mitigations we talked about. With how to let a testimony plastic breaking down a micro plastics and how it ends up in our bodies. And now in every aspect of our bodies. Have you held hurt at the cellulose breaking down and affecting human health . A note. Thank you. Back to my point we have a product used ecological issues and the degree we can replace it on the front and was something that does not create the Health Issues we are in a much better place. We do look forward to more detailed information in this committee about other alternatives being produced plant materials of mushrooms or seaweed. My colleague senator molen has a company in oklahoma called utopia plastics it is using a plant material to make straws that hardin when they are in waters they do not collapse like a paper straw. I have no idea if its biodegradable or not. The point is many Small Businesses are experimenting with approaches and our goal in Public Policy is to understand what approaches are viewed in their entirety in making the most sense they continue to be a topic of exploration for the committee. Thank you very much for bringing your knowledge and experience to bear. With that i think their closing comments i need to make. In closing i asking thems consent to summit for the record variety of materials hearing none we put into the record. Senators the close of business on thursday november 9. By november 30 that would be helpful with that the committee is adjourned. [background noises] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]