Laurinwhitney gottbrath joins us, world editor from axios. And joyce karam is the Senior Editor for almonitor. Welcome to both of you. Lets start about the situation right now. I want to ask you about casa. Guest great to be with you. It is a devastating situation. The numbers coming from gaza and from gaza indicate at least 4000 are dead. The wounded is above 12,000. The hospitals the United Nations said they have 24 hours before running out of fuel. We are looking at a very dire situation and unprecedented catastrophe in casa. The israeli airstrikes have identified and are hitting harder gaza. Harder inside gaza. The trucks at the border of egypt are still waiting. Host they were supposed to start moving this morning, local time. Guest they have moved but not entered. Now, i have spoken to people on the ground and the expectation is they will start moving tomorrow morning. Guest 2 the british Prime Minister, rishi sunak, is in israel. This says Israels Netanyahu warns of a long war. What are the implications and what are people saying about how long this could be . Guest 2 in terms of the implications more locally, it undoubtedly would be much much higher death tolls, particularly in gaza, but also among the Israeli Military. I think that is part of the reason netanyahu continues to warn the public about how long this war could be. Part of the reason we do not know exactly how long it will be we know it will likely be quite long. We know hamas has extensive tunnel systems and other systems in place that the Israeli Military have said it is their goal to destroy. Urban warfare is never easy. We also do not know what the is a raleys what the israelis endgame is. We know they want to destroy and dismantle hamas, but we do not know what they plan to do if they achieve this goal in the way they are hoping to. They said they have no desire to reoccupy gaza, but they have not made it clear to what an exit strategy would look like. That is one thing that made it very concerning to people watching this closely and to Biden Administration officials and european officials too. The longer this goes on, the heightened chance it could turn into a much more regional conflict. That is something officials around the world are trying to prevent. Host we are seeing satellite images of troops and Armored Vehicles amassing on the border with gaza. It is a really jet israeli generals have been saying they are preparing to send troops inside soon. What do we know about israels plans for a ground war . Guest 2 the Israeli Defense minister today spoke more about attentional grounds offense. He describes it as a threephase war which is obviously airstrikes and getting into gaza. We know they will likely focus a lot of efforts on gaza city. They very much want to destroy what they say is hamas infrastructure. This includes really extensive tunnels. But we also know hamas is preparing for this Ground Invasion. In terms of when it will happen, that is a big question that a lot of people have. Obviously, we got more signs it could soon, with some comments from israeli officials. We also saw that israel started evacuating a town that is very close to lebanese orders. This could be another indication that they are preparing for something quite soon. At the end of the day, we know the Ground Invasion is coming. When it comes is a big question mark. It will likely cause the death toll to continue to rise as this war progresses. Host lets talk about the Organization Hamas itself. What are its resources . I think the extent of their weapons surprised the world and israel. How difficult would it be to dismantle the group completely . Guest hamas is entrenched in gaza. Hamas came to the scene in the early 1980s. It is part of the Muslim Brotherhood ideologically. They rely on charity and outside funding. They have huge resources on the ground as far as services for people, whether it is hospitals or schools. Militarily, a lot of the weapons they used in the october 7 massacre in israel or home produced in israel were home produced. You are looking at things they would produce in their tunnels and hikers together. The other support is coming from iran but that has been limited since the blockade in 2007 on gaza after israel left. They are very resourceful as far as producing weapons inhouse. Host and also getting materials to produce those weapons, given the blockade. Guest they have been getting them through tunnels and from egypt and through the sea. We have seen reports some have come through that. Overall, they have remained creative. They are powerful inside gaza. We have seen, so far, four incursions from israel into gaza. Hamas has only gotten stronger. There are a lot of questions now about whether this can be different. It is a big question mark. As far as hamas is entrenched in gaza, whether it is public support, or even for humanitarian aid to come in. We heard from the white house that they are communicating indirectly with hamas to let the humanitarian aid in. This is their place and their torn tory and to their territory. They will fight tooth and nail. This is shaping up to be an ugly and long and difficult war. Host i will invite our viewers to ask a question. To laurinwhitney gottbrath of axios or joyce karam of almonitor. Give us a call. Republicans, 202 7488001. Democrats, 202 7488000. Independents, 202 7488002. Joyce, if someone has not heard of almonitor, can you tell us what it is . Guest we are an american website focused on the middle east. We have many sources including three in the gaza strip. We have lost touch with one of them. We are waiting to see if he has made the evacuation. The other two made it from north to south gaza and we are in touch with them. Please check our work at almonitor. Com. Host it is a very small area. Where are people supposed to evacuate you . Evacuate to . Guest 2 that is a good question. In israel gave the order, it was to evacuate from northern gaza. There is a line and people are supposed to evacuate to the southern part of gaza. It is an incredibly small area and so densely populated. You have more than 2. 2 million or 2. 3 Million People packed into this small area and there is not a lot of leases to go. On top of that, continue to see israel to airstrikes and air raids to the southern parts of gaza where they told people to evacuate. We are hearing reports over the last few days that people did evacuate our finding nowhere to go, so they are moving back up north. At the end of the day, they are unable to escape the strikes happening now, whether in the north or south. That is a big worry, obviously for palestinians but also countries in the region. We should remind viewers that palestinians cannot leave. It is not just a that cannot get in, but they also are not allowed to leave. It has always been hard to leave gaza, regardless if there is a war. That is an important aspect. It is another reason why humanitarian crises like this are so dire. It was already dire. And now, in terms of what you and and local hospital staff are saying, it has moved onto dyer. Dire. Host what have other arab countries said . Egypt, jordan. Not only supporting palestinians but allowing them to come into their country. Guest the area is very toxic. We have seen an influx of arab refugees throughout the conflict since 1948. Jordan and egypt made clear they do not want refugees because they do not know if they would return. They do not want another turkey situation with 4 million another turkiye situation with 4 million refugees. They do not want camps to become radicalized over time. This is a very sensitive subject for everyone. Not just to the west, but mostly egypt, because this is the only passage for gazans to leave. This is part of an negotiation. How much egypt can take. What are the terms . Any guarantees they would come back. In the history of the arab israeli conflict, they dont come back. We should be clear with our viewers that they do not combat. The 800,000 that left after 1948 are still gone. This is a very big issue. And one that jordan and egypt have drawn a redline on. They do not want refugees. They do not take refugees. Host the president talked last night about palestinians. I want to play a short clip and then get your reaction. Pres. Biden i also spoke with the Palestinian Authority and reiterated the u. S. Remains committed to the Palestinian Peoples right to dignity and selfdetermination. The actions of hamas to not take this right away. Like so many others, i am heartbroken by the tragic loss of palestinian life, including an explosion at hospital in gaza , which was not done by the israelis. We mourn every loss of life and cannot ignore the palestinians who only want peace and to have an opportunity. Host your response to that and the entire speech. Guest 2 it was clear what President Biden was trying to do. He was trying to make a case that the u. S. Needs to continue supporting both ukraine but also israel. That is not just a matter of world stability, but also, in his view, a matter of national security. In doing that, he is hoping there will be more pressure on congress to get this aid package we are expecting the president to request as soon as Congress Starts functioning again. In terms of the palestinian elements, i spoke to several palestinians. Both palestinianamericans and also palestinians in the occupied west bank. They pointed something out to me. When he was talking about palestinians, he did not ever use the word freedom. He did use the word freedom at the end of his speech in a grandiose way. For them, that was a huge disappointment. At the end of the day, israel is the occupying power of the palestinian territory. That is one thing palestinians are continuing to call for. While determination sounds great, it is not necessarily while selfdetermination sounds great, it is not necessarily a quick thing to freedom. People want the president to express more in terms of not just the suffering palestinians in gaza are experiencing at the moment, but also the decades long occupation that has happened. And the fact that the Peace Process gone away. At the end of the day, people are happy that you mentioned palestinians. It was not something we saw in a previous speech. But they also are disappointed, particularly palestinianamericans, at the American Government approach to the war. Host what do we know about the popularity of pub boss among palestinians before october 7 and after . Guest we do not know much after october 7 because there is not a lot of resources on the ground. But before october 7, hamas was a Popular Movement. When you look at the west bank as a president that is 87 years old and has not called for another election in over 10 years and that host but hamas has also not called for reelection since they were brought in. Guest but hamas has used the criticism of that and the disenchantment of the palestinians to say that we will represent you better. We started to see, before october 7, crews up in the west bank that were more aligned with hamas. The entire dynamic was being explosive. With people we speak to on the ground when there is a war, they tend to be against israel and leaned more on hamas, because they see this as the power that can defend them. This is a situation we get into. The same with the 2006 war in lebanon and israel in lebanon when israel hits hezbollah. The goal is still unclear if the operation succeeds to uproot hamas from gaza. Maybe the authority can go back and establish its power in gaza. As far as the situation, hamas is a Popular Movement in the gaza strip. Host jimmy on the line for democrats. Maine. Caller we can really not accept. We never saw it coming. Now, you are presenting this supposedly determinative evidence that a stray rocket from a military group did a hospital bombing. And neither of these assertions is really believable, while we are still attempting critical thought. Host all right. What do you think . What do we know about the hospital explosion . Guest 2 we do not know a whole lot more than we knew when it happened. The Palestinian Militants continue and palestinians in Gaza Continue to blame israel. Israel continues to blame islamic jihad. Israel has prevent has presented what it says is evidence of the fact this was a failed rocket. Some evidence has already been debunked. We know israel has a history of immediately denying something, and then as independent investigations, normally by news organizations, move forward that they have to walk back or change their narrative. But that does not necessarily mean that islamic jihads account is incredibly believable. But you have to remember, just like palestinians in gaza cannot get out, there are a number of journalists there that are doing an amazing job. Others cannot get in. Not just journalists but also investigators. It is hard to discern what happens with the hospital bombing, but it will continue to be a blame game. We know that is something that is sadly a normal thing in this conflict and the broad scale. Host tom, republican. Caller good morning. This is not a republican or democrat issue. I have been in counterterrorism for 30 years and have studied israel and islamic jihad. I know their capabilities, but none of this is relevant because with hamas it is of horned to anyone is abhorrent to me that anyone would put dust ification for what they did. Lets put this into perspective. They went in the morning, pulled little kids out of their beds in day cares, and topped their heads off. They hide behind kids and women. All of the adults in gaza knew this attack was going to come and no one calls the israelis and told them they were coming to kill their children. They specifically went to their children. These are murderers. They know where all the titles are and that is why they are blowing up buildings in gaza, because they hide their tunnels in schools, hospitals, and day cares. I get that they are angry but it does not excuse the butchering these people conducted against an incentive in israel. Against innocent people in israel. Guest i agree with tom. I am not justifying going into civilian houses in broad daylight and massacring people. The images we saw our horrific. I have friends over there. It is horrific, the devastation is horrific. But what do we do next . What is the day after . What is the plan . Is a collective punishment on the gaza strip and a siege and blockage of water and fuel the answer . I am not entirely sure. And looking at the history, Prime Minister netanyahu is known to have the concept of strengthening hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority and weaken the moderate palestinian side. Host in what way . Guest in allowing, for example, money to come to hamas. After israel left in 2005, it was clear who was going to take control of the gaza strip. While there was a blockade in place, money kept flowing into hamas. The netanyahu concept was, if i am against the agreement of the 1990s and against the negotiations, then i do not need a palestinian partner. And with hamas. There is a lot of questions and stakes that got us here. But absolutely, what tom is saying is the massacre of october 7 is horrific. Host laurinwhitney gottbrath, your response. Guest 2 i agree with joyce, as well. In terms of i cannot speak on behalf of palestinians, obviously. But in terms of palestinians i have spoken to, they have also expressed dismay over the violence that was witnessed on october 7. At the same time, they want the world to know that you cannot necessarily separate october 7 from the entire history of this conflict before october 7. For a lot of palestinians, of course, a lot of palestinians i have spoken to have condemned what hamas did. But they want the world to know that when it comes to the war and conflict, it does not start on october 7. This has been decades long war. There has been great suffering on both sides. They expressed, over and over again, that until the occupation ends, until there is a palestinian state what that looks like, a big question mark but there were always be big threats like this there will always be big threats like this. The blockade devastated their economy and young people do not have jobs and did not have jobs. We know that not just in gaza, but around the world, those folks are prime for radicalization and joining groups are giving them something. It does not excuse what happened on october 7, particularly the violence against civilians and young children. But palestinians want the world to know that at the end of the day, what happened on october 7 is horrific in so many ways. They also say what happened to Palestinian People over the last 75 years over the last 56 years of occupation, has been incredibly horrific. It may have been on a slower and often a smaller scale, but if you put it together, it is a much bigger scale than the horrific images we saw in israel on october 7. Host earl on the independent line in florida. Caller good morning, good morning. You know what amazes me . I have been listening to this program for years. Most of the people who give their calls are their comments are very ignorant of the fact there is religious freedom. The israelis believe the territories should be jewish. The muslims believe the territory should be muslim. So people do not even know about this. I remember during christmas the leader of israel went into the church and surrounded it and they would not let him leave. So you find all this confusion. I would tell these people, if god was behind them returning to that territory, they were not lead would not be the military of the u. S. To provide them. These Bumper Sticker christians continue to watch as these people are slaughtered, and then want to pray for them and pray for them. Act in harmony with your prayer. You can pray until the sun turns green but it would not work. Host all right. The religious aspect and the plight of Palestinian Christians. Guest i am not sure. Particularly, in the last year, we have seen more attacks on christians. Whether it is in jerusalem. There was an attack of a jewish extremist spitting on christians in jerusalem. This is a complex concept and religion plays a part of it. Hamas is an islamic movement. The government we have now in israel has far right religious cabinet members that do not even believe the Palestinian Peoples culture exists. So there are many components that play into this. I was just reading this morning that there was a strike yesterday that hit an Orthodox Church in gaza. This is not a good time for any religious minority in the region, and definitely for Palestinian Christians in the holy land. Host lets talk to jill, a democrat, in columbus, ohio. Caller i am really concerned about the hostages that hamas has taken. I worry about them livestreaming their executions and torture. I know that israel cut off water and a because they just want the hostages back and safe. Do you know what the status of that is . Because they have a nine month old baby and small children. I think it will make tempers flare even worse. Host go ahead. Guest 2 in terms of the hostages, we dont have a life information. We did start to see some of the first images hamas release of israelis who have been taken over the last week. In terms of what we know and as to exactly where they are, hamas early on puts hostages in some of these tunnels. In terms of what their status is, at the moment, there is not a lot of information publicly from the government and Biden Administration. We know there is a number of americans also being held hostage. I think the caller was right. This is a huge concern and is also an incredibly driving factor, not just for israel in terms of their next move. They are also calculating how they might be able to get hostages out. But also for western governments. Thats is another reason why you are seeing ironclad support for israel. This is really an unprecedented situation when it comes to this, where you have a high number of hostages being held by hamas. We have seen wars started after some is a really soldiers were some Israeli Soldiers were taken. We do not have a lot information at the moment as to their status. Serious devotions are underway to get hostages out. Host do we know what hamas has asked for . Have they made any demands . Guest 2 stopping this defensive is one big thing and not during the Ground Invasion. But hamas also wants to end the occupation. There is a number of things hamas wants. In terms of what might be the thing that gets them to release some of the hostages, if not all of them, is a big . As to what would be a serious thing or something the israelis could give for hamas to do that. At the end of the day, the hostage crisis is a big one. We do know that americans have teams there. The israelis are also trying hard to determine where a lot of the hostages are. When we see this ground offensive, i would not be surprised if we know this is also a goal of israel to rescue folks who are in this really horrible situation. Host ok, your comments on the hostages. Guest we know that turkiye is meeting in a back channel with hamas for a prisoner swap. Hamas wants a Palestinian Woman and other prisoners that are jailed in israel, and in return to release civilian children and a woman they have from the october 7 massacre. I agree with laurin thats it has not progressed enough, but that is the equation we are looking at right now. Israel said yesterday there are 203 hostages with hamas. That is higher than the number given early on which was 190. Host in virginia, republican. Good morning. Caller good morning. God bless cspan. Thank you for everything you do. I do not think we need to reiterate how atrocious the attacks were on israel. What is the responsibility of the civilians and the country housing these entities in terms of terrorists and the response at this point . If there was a terrorist in the u. S. That was operating in the country and rating canada or mexico, taking civilians captive, but cooperating with other governments, and then produce the terrorist in the end, they should be tried according to their crimes. The palestinians are not doing that. How complicit are they at this point . Do they deserve to die . No. Are they risking this as the result of helping terrorists . I would say that yes, this seems very reasonable and appropriate. I have heard your guests several times acknowledged how horrific these atrocities for these atrocities were. The next word after that is always but. There should never be a but. I encourage all listeners to question those who acknowledge these and then say but. How can anything justify what transpired . Guest the problem we have in the situation between the palestinians and israelis is there is no palestinian state. The Palestinian Authority is barely surviving and does not have a military. Its institutions are weak. The territory has been under occupation since 1967. This is what we have to deal with. It is an unprecedented situation where a massacre on this deal has been done by a nonstate actor. We do not have an International Mechanism to deal with it. The regional countries do not want to go in. I cannot see egypt going that they will egypt saying they will go in and take over gaza. No. I know our caller will not appreciate me saying but, but there are 2 million civilians stuck in there. This is a question for everyone. What do we do about this . There has to be protective measures and humanitarian measures in place before embarking on this operation. Host a quick comment on that . Guest 2 i completely agree with joyce. In terms of, not just regional governments, but you have to remember hamas is the governing the political wing of hamas is the governing power of gaza. While hamas has different wings, the militant wing and armed wing is the one that carried out october 7. At the end of the day, they are hamas. You definitely will not see palestinians in casa, or hamas, the government, inviting israel in because they are also hamas. At the end of the day, there is a charter. That is one thing in terms of answering the callers question that folks have to keep in mind. They are the ruling power and there is a lot of support for hamas. Palestinians view hamas in a different way than a lot of other countries. I think joyce puts it really well earlier. Hamas gained popularity, particularly in these wars, because palestinians saw they were defending them. That is not an excuse for october 7 but it is important to get into the mindset of palestinians in gaza and around the world as to what hamas is. Again, like i said, a lot of palestinians have condemned what happens on to verse seven and that is important to keep in mind as well. Host california, independent line, kim. Caller hello. I am calling. I am propalestinian. I want to say, first of all, an earlier republican said terrorists are not murderers. Terrorists are murderers, first off. But asking a civilian in palestine to rise up against hamas would be like creating a civil war. One of the things the occupation has done is they fight for food every day, they fight for electricity, they fight for gas to keep their home to heat their homes. The occupation has devastated them economically so they are fighting for survival every day. Unlike america, every civilian is not weaponized. They do not have a fighting army to even call upon. They barely have police. Hamas is there army. Yes, i would never condone killing babies on any side. But when we talk about the 300 lets take for granted the hamass bomb ended up in the hospital. That is 300. Lets talk about the 4000 in gaza that have already died. Innocent civilians, 90 of them, women and children. Lets say it is only 2000. Why isnt the world as outraged about them as they are the 300 hamas killed . And lets say that is true. We do not even know the truth because the u. N. Is not in there and they are not able to operate. But i am so scared for the Palestinian People. This is a fight that has reached my heart for the last 30 years of my life. All i can say is viva palestina. Host she mentioned world rage reaction. What have we seen on that front . Guest 2 a lot of protests erupted after the hospital bombing. We continue to see protests since then. I also noticed, in terms of World Leaders, we are seeing a number of World Leaders particularly in the region, but also we saw the u. N. Call for a ceasefire. This was a word, at least in the u. S. , was not being used early in the war. The escalation and those types of things. The worse the humanitarian crisis gets, the more pressure there is on israel to do something to relieve that. At the end of the day, israel is in control of gazas border, the airspace, and to be sea. With the much more intense seeds they put on at the beginning of the war, that has made it even more like a lot of viewers said, israel controls the water and fuel going into gaza. Which would be the reason why gaza would have electricity, at least from is one coal power plant. I think all of these things continue to build as images continue to come out of gaza. There will be more and more World Leaders and folks around the world, but particularly in the region continue to put pressure on israel to either allow more humanitarian aid in or turn on the water for a longer period of time. Host sorry to interrupt. On the other side of this, how many other countries besides the u. S. Have pledged support to israel and also humanitarian aid to the palestinians . Guest 2 in terms of support to israel, dozens. The west in particular has really stood a hind israel in many ways. A number of countries are pledging support or aid to the palestinians. President biden, during his trip to israel, announced 100 million in aid for the palestinians. Obviously, a lot of regional governments are also pledging aid and funding in hopes that the aide can get into gaza. That is another huge question, obviously. But hopefully this will happen in the next 24 to 48 hours. At the end of the day, the longer this goes on, the more pressure there will likely be on israel to potentially either reassess its operation, or at the very least, continue to allow aid once it to get into gaza. Host new york city, democrat line. Caller i have a couple quick actual question actual questions for your guest. The hostages are safe and being protected. They are more in danger from the israelis who want to sacrifice them. I want to ask, is an idf general a sacrifice or hostage . Of the people that are dead, that never seems to change. Of the 1400, how many might be that hamas fighters . I saw idf forces, special forces, in bala clubbers balaclavas. Of the 50 dead u. S. Citizens, how many are dual citizenship soldiers who died fighting for the idf . I think that is being covered up. This is a massive military failure and the idf and israel wants to paint it as a civilian nasa curve. At the festival, i did not see more than 100 around. They are claiming the hospital was caused by someone who could not shoot straight. They have set allies who know exactly where that came from. They are fiddling around because they do not want to say it because israel would be so guilty of a war crime that they could not justify what they are doing. Host go ahead. Guest lets me start with two and three. In terms of the death count in israel, it stands around 1400 at the moment. We know this includes soldiers. The Israeli Government has not been incredibly clear as to how many children. This includes how many women and civilians. We know about how many soldiers there are. And we know high numbers of civilians were killed in israel. There has been no indication that this number includes hamas fighters. In terms of the hostages, we do not know a lot about their status and how they are being treated. I do think hamas particularly treats the is a they took hostage the Israeli Soldiers they took hostage as part of a military operation. I am not sure whether i can answer or not whether all the hostages would be considered prisoners of war. There are civilians involved who would not have been involved in any sort of war whatsoever. This question is a little difficult to answer. You will see both sides viewing it differently. I just want to stress that we do not really know exactly how the hostage is our. The hostages are being treated. Can you remind me of the fourth question . Host that is ok. We are running out of time. Gordon. Caller a few callers already asked the same question or stated the point i would make. The adult palestinians that you want to call civilians, how many of them were already working in israel when this attack happened . Like the one man stated, someone has to know what hamas is doing in this area in gaza. Digging tunnels, bringing supplies down into whatever basement, of a school or a hospital, what did they think they work for . Air raid shelters . I dont think so. Nobody that even worked in israel said anything like hamas is building multiple titles here and there in civilian multiple tunnels here and there in civilian places because they hide behind civilians. And why does gaza need an army or police force when they elected a terrorist group . I dont understand that one. Guest these are good questions. When hamas came to power, they were elected in 2007. It was an election that many in the west. The Palestinian Authority would win but it the west thought the Palestinian Authority would win but it did not. To your point, yes, many gazans and palestinians work in israel. Some have actually helped build the wall that is a detriment to the palestinian state. That is true. The problem for these civilians on the inside is they do not have a choice now. They are trapped. Many would like to go out. They do not know where to go. They cannot go to israel. The crossing is still closed. They cannot go to egypt. Thats is closed. The sea is blocked by israel. Where do they go . In wars like this, safe zones are created for humanitarian measures. Get civilians out and do your thing. The problem is they do not have this option so we are looking at a long, ugly, and war were casualties will be in the thousands. Host one were called. Illinois, independent. Caller wonderful program. I do not unfortunately these hostages are poker chips. They are never going to get home, ok. Secondly, if trump were president none of this would happen. On october 7 it was the day of our lady of the rosary. If more people prayed, this conflict would not have transpired as it has. Praise to god. Protect this world. Thats the only way we are going to come out alive. Thank you. Great cspan. Host last word, quickly. Guest sure. In terms i think the caller has definitely one thing right is i think a lot of people around the world really want this conflict to end. And as to what that looks like, it always and has been for decades a big question mark. I think, again, like the caller said, a lot of people around the world dont want to see more people die. I think as we go forward thats unfortunately probably going to be the reality. Host all right. Lauren whitney. World editor for axios. And joyce is a Senior News Editor with al monitor. Find her work at almonitor. Com