Transcripts For CSPAN Books 20240703

On cspan. In partnership with the library of congress, cspan brings you books that shaped america. Our series explores key works of literature that ive had a profound impact on the country. In this program the journals of lewis and clark, from their tour of discovery published in 1814. In 1803 the size of the United States nearly doubled with the Louisiana Purchase, the vast tract of land was largely unknown. President Thomas Jefferson commissioned Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to explore and map the newly acquired territory. There crew of explores juried up the Missouri River, cross the Rocky Mountain and the Pacific Coast. Lewis and clarks twoyear tour of discovery ended in september 1806 and they returned with maps, sketches and it journals. Detailing the regions path, animal life, geography and indigenous people. In 1814 Many Americans were able to learn for the first time about the western land, upon the publishing of the book titled history of the expedition under the command of lewis and clark. Host welcome to books that shaped america, our cspan series that looks at how throughout our history books have influenced who we are today. In partnership with the library of congress, this 10 week series looks at different eras, topics and viewpoints. We are glad you are joining us for this walkthrough history. In the first two weeks of our series we look at Americas Foundation through the eyes of Thomas Paynes common sense and the federalist papers. Tonight, it is a look at americas expansion and the 1804 to 1806 expedition to the west made by Meriwether Lewis and William Clark. When they returned in 1814 1806 presented their journals to president Thomas Jefferson. Those journals were published in 1814. To help us see how lewis and clarks travels and subsequent book helped to shape america our guest this evening iStephanie Ambroses. She is the author of the lewis and clarke companion and she is a member of the lewis and clark trust. This series is called books that shaped america. How did lewis and clarks expedition and the subsequent publishing of the journal shape who we are today . Guest the question is, it shaped us today because it gave us the data we needed to expand. In other words everybody was anxious to know what was out there. What was in the Louisiana Purchase, especially Thomas Jefferson. In order for us to expand that is what most of the people wanted to hear too. So the journals are extremely important and filling in that canvas at jefferson would say of what was in the Louisiana Purchase and beyond to the pacific ocean. Host where did your interest in lewis and clark come from to the point that she wrote a book about it . Guest when i was 16 my father was working on undaunted courage. It was o research trip. He took us as a family out to hike and paddle in the missouri and basically camp our way along the trail. That was such an adventure. I really learned to love the west, i ended up going to school out west. But what really fascinated me i think was the congo we sacagawea. The fact that there was a young woman on the trip and that she was just as strong. A person of fortitude as any of the men. Host and of course your father is the late historian stephen ambrose, in his 1996 book undaunted courage was about lewis and clark. A must seller. And youre broke book the companion. What is that about . Guest the lewis and clark companion came out when the bicentennial was gearing up, the commemoration of the lewis and Clark Expedition. A friend of mine clay jenkins and i were talking about it. No one had done an encyclopedia encyclopedic listing of what was involved in the journals. It is a look at people laces and things associated with the expedition. Host what is the lewis and clark trust . Guest it is a Nonprofit Group that we work in partnership with the National Parks service who administers the trail and we help them with education programming and signage and things that they see local communities needing. Including expanding the trail to places that lewis visited before and after the expedition. Host how well is the trail marked today . Guest it is marked very well and because people have the internet and cell phones there are auto tours. There are a lot of local communities and agencies, state parks, that want to have that story as prominent as they can. If you go online and look up the trail of lewis and clark there are all kinds of things that will tell you the way to go. Host we want to show a map. This is the map of the United States in 1804. You can see in the eastern part that is the United States. 1803 Thomas Jefferson purchased the louisiana territory a there is the spanish territory out west. You casee the Missouri River and the trail, the lewis and clark trail there. Beginning near st. Charles, st. Louis missouri. How much did we know . Here is a map that lewis and clark brought with them. We are going to show that as well. How much of this uncharted territory here in the middle that is unmarked, how much did we know about it . Guest not a lot. There was a french i think is how you say his name who had gone to the dakotas. There were some explorations that had come in from the west on the Columbia River that we do not know a whole heck of a lot about that part of the country that we had just purchased. Host what was the goal of this expedition . Guest the goal was to see if there was a Northwest Passage in jefferson wanted them when they were looking for this route , to basically survey everything. People, places, minerals, plants, animals, birds, soil. Everything about the land to fill in those questions. What is out there. Host what is it was it a controversial undertaking . Guest it might have been except that the purchase happened. There was this secret address that jefferson gave, it really did not need to be secret once the purchase was made. Host Stephanie Ambrose tubs, when this book came out in 1814, history of the expedition under the commands of command of captains lewis and clark. It did it have an impact in 1814 . Guest it took about 80 years for the journals to grab a hold of the publics imagination. The reason it took so long was because of louiss death for one thing, and then clark struggled to find someone who would put the journals into book form. So there was a gap in that gap, people just were not fascinated with it as much as they probably would have been if it had come out right after they went west. Host i want to read from the lewis and clark journals, this is from Meriwether Lewis april 7 1805 in north dakota. We are now about to penetrate a country, at least 2000 mil width onch the foot of civilized man has never trod in. The good or evil it had sre for us was for experiment yeto determine, in these little vessels contained every article by which we were to expect to subsist or defend ourselves. Im going to start with the use of the word civilized. What was he referring to . Guest he was referring to euroamericans, white men. The fact that they knew there were indians out there but they just did not know what tribes and how large their encampments or villages were. I dont think they understood the differences in the geography that they would go through. They kind of had to see it to believe that it was that different from where they came from. Host including the Rocky Mountains. Guest yes. Host did they spend most of their time onhe Missouri River . Guest eshey did people like to say that sacagawea was a guide but they really do not need a guide because they were on a river. Once they started getting up into the bitter roots she would not have been able to guide because she did not really know beyond were her people were. What was the first part of the question . Host it was about the civilized part. Guest it meant euroamericans had never gone there in one of the things that our Montana Historical society had an exhibit up called neither empty nor unknown. Because there were people out there and they knew their lands, they knew the river. They knew all the rivers actually. So it was not empty and it was not unknown. Host and we will get into sacagawea shortly but i also want to ask, he used the word the little vessels. What were they traveling in . Guest they were in canoes or parogues they called them, right up until they got into port the had a barge. I think were going to see some of that. Host and they are going against the current . Guest yes they are going against the current that is something people dont realize. Had to pull and pull and basically just how those boats. Of river. Host from the journals what did they experience, what do we learn they were experiencing as they went north and west . Guest everything. Grizzly bears, Indian Tribes, people they were amazed by because certain tribes would use a board to flatten babies heads and they had never seen anything like that. I think the variety, the sheer variety of the land. The people, the animals. Everything was brandnew. Host was there expedition being followed contemporaneously back in 1804 through 1806 . Guest a lot of people thought when they did not come back after two years because it took them two years four months in 10 days, they assume they were dead. And they had also sent back some things from fort mandan to jefferson, so they knew they made it that far. But once they got back, the newspaper accounts started host firing up people like they are back. Almost like robin caruso characters. Host we want to show you some video of some handwritten journal entries from the lewis and Clark Expedition. This comes to us from the American Philosophical Society in philadelphia and you can see the date on the entry. It is sunday march 16, 1806 and it is written by Meriwether Lewis. What is the American Philosophical Society and how did they get these original journals . Guest the American Philosophical Society was a group of very learned men who learned that they needed a place to study, a place to be together and talk about their studies and to encourage exploration. When lewis went to philadelphia, jefferson sent them there to learn from various experts. The American Philosophical Society was kind of the nucleus of all the experts. Host as i mentioned, our partner in this endeavor in this 10 week series books that shaped america is the library of congress. And we have utilized a lot of their resources, their original list came out about 10 years ago. It was called books that shaped america, there were 100 books on the list. That is available on our website cspan. Org, books that shaped america. You can see all 100 books that they have on there. This is not meant to be a complete list, it is not best sellers. It is books that were chosen as having an impact on our society on public policy. And who we are today. Cspan shows 10 books from that series and the lewis and Clark Expedition, there journals was one of them. And up at the library of congress they have a First Edition of the lewis and clark journals from 1814. How were lewis and clark and the Others Holding on to their writings because they were not putting this in the computer or email at the time . Guest they had 10 boxes they kept the journals and to keep them dry. Another thing they did was, at four so other journalists beside the captains would actually make copies. They would make their own entries of their journals and they would also copy some information from the captain so they would not lose the information. So it was a military expedition and part of their assignment was to keep those journals, keep them dry and record what you see. Host we have learned there were about 5000 pages in the journals. Who did most of the writing . Meriwether lewis, William Clark . Guest actually sergeant ordway was the only one who kept a daily, every day journal religiously. Lewis there are some major gaps, and clark was pretty good about writing every day. Even when he missed, he went out hunting in north dakota and he missed about 10 days because it was way below zero so he had other things on his mind. But when he came back into fort mandan he recorded all of those and brought it up to date. Host who publish the book in 1814 . Guest the book i believe, it went through paul allen. That was the guy who ended up with his name on that addition. Because it was turned over to alan and he said i got as far as i can go with that you take it over and get it to the publisher. And he paid him 500. And his name, paul allen appears on this version and doodles is kind of not around. Host who is paul allen and middle . Guest bittle was a philadelphia lawyer and a child genius and was approached by jefferson to get those journals out and published. Host our partner is the library of congress and heres president jeffersons letter to Congress Asking for 2500 for this expedition in 18. This was kind of a secret letter is that correct . Guest like i mentioned he would have had to make it even more secret if the purchase had not been made. But he did not want to alarm foreign governments that there was going to be this expedition going on so that i think is the reason he kept it under wraps. Host and jeffersons instructions to Meriwether Lewis, the library also has and here is what it looks like. Here is a quote from that letter. Your mission is to explore the Missouri River by its course and communication withater of the pacific ocean. May offer the most direct r across this continent for the purposes of commerce. This was about commerce. Guest indeed it was. In fact they did not find Northwest Passage but they certainly found a lot of opportunity for commerce. Host 2000 341 miles from the headwaters near three forks montana to the mississippi are virtuous north of st. Louis, did they traverse all 2340 1 miles of that river . Guest of the missouri . Yes they did. It the headwaters. Actually it is a little not correct to say headwaters but lewis and his men that got there assumed this rivulet as they called it was the headwaters of the missouri and they were so happy to get there that one of them stood with his feet astride that mighty river, they had come all the way up to that point so they were pretty proud of themselves at that point. Host so Stephanie Ambrose tubs how did they traverse the 700 miles they had left to get to the oregon coast . Guest they went downriver, once they got up over the Rocky Mountains they were able to get onto some tributaries that were of the columbia and go through on the Columbia River and get to the coast. Host missouri, kansas, nebraska, iowa, north, south dakota. Montana, all of the states are impacted by the Missouri River. The longest river in the United States. At the library of congress is a curator talking about in original lewis and clark map they brought with them. We are here in the library of congress in the geography and map division and vault my name is amelia and i am a reference librarian in the geography and map division. This map here was prepared in 18 for the lewis and Clark Expedition, and they had gathered as much information as they could about the area west of the mississippi where the expedition would be traveling. A number of different sources were pulled together for this map, and a lot of information from french fur traders and british heads of state company and other companies. In the mississippian great lakes area. You had spanish exploration on the Pacific Coast and british exploration as well and what is now british colombia. And then this whole area in the middle, just dass marks conjectural. The Missouri River which is one of the pieces of information that the lewis and Clark Expedition was trying to find, trying to map out, this represented with the dotted line. They did not know exactly where it went. This map was created by a War Department photographer and this map was sent with the lewis and Clark Expedition at least as far as the mandan villages. And while they were traveling Meriwether Lewis added notations, these notations in brown inc. Is Meriwether Lewiss hand. You can see he was drawing in rivers, either that they had seen or were gathering information about. He is noting trading posts and even drawing in mountains. At some point during the expedition they shipped it back to washington and that is eventually how it ended up in the library of congress. This map was transferred to the library in 1925 from the bureau of Indian Affairs after the expedition William Clark had gone on to be the superintendent of Indian Affairs. Those maps, once they created while they were on the journey and the ones they went out with really tell us how the knowledge of the United States in this large area of the north American Continent evolved and was augmented by information gathered on this expedition. Host Stephanie Ambrose tubs, how much of that map was filled in by the time they left . Guest that whole part she says is conjecture, when they left it was empty. When they came back they had filled it in quite a bit with Indian Tribes and with the rivers and they got to name a couple rivers, the names actually stuck. And how much was left, they basically were the first surveyors. Clarks map, part of the reason this book i believe it was this version of the book, was desired was because it had a map in it. People would steal the maps out of it, take the map and take it west with them. The map was extremely important and clarks abilities as a surveyor and mapmaker really made the difference. Host so their accuracy was pretty good . Guest yes it was. Host was the Missouri River used for commerce . Guest yes indeed, in fact when they were coming back downriver they met several traders, trappers going up river and john coulter one of the members decide to i am not going back to civilization i am going back out with you guys. And the captains let him go. Host we want to involve you in this program we are talking about the expedition of lewis and clark and of course the history of the expedition under the command of captains lewis and clark and what that journal and this expedition meant to shaping our country. Guest 0 guest 748 89 guest 0 if you live in the east and central time zones, 202748 if you live in the pacific time zones and if you want to send a text message with our guests and the 220274880 03 please include your first name and your city if you would. Lets give you a snapshot of what america was like in this era 1803 1804, Thomas Jefferson was presidt. The populaon had grown to about 5. 3 one million, the Louisiana Purchase had happened in 1803. That cost 15 billion. The economy is still largely rural and agricultural. The lewis and Clark Expedition ntrom may 1804 to september of 18 oh six. It was named the corps of discery. An it started out with about four dozen men, one died, 8000 miles total traveled. Who died and how . Guest the men who died was a sergeant named Charles Floyd and he died of basically a ruptured appendix. If he would have been in st. Louis or anywhere, they do not have means of treating that so he would have died even if they were in civilization probably. Host it is relatively remarkable that on this wilderness journey one person died. Guest exactly. Natives would say there were a few natives that were killed by lewis when he was doing his exploration of the river. They like to say there was more than one but there was one member of their exploration expedition that died and it is remarkable. Guest no women. Host no women . Guest well there was no woman but one came on in her name was sacagawea. Host how did they meet her . Gut she was mried to a french trapper and they were okg for someone that could translate and they al realized, they knew that they could they needed horses to get over the Rocky Mountains so they needed someone who could speak the languages of those tribes. She was the one. Host what was her nation . Guest she was shoshone but she was captured and she lived with the mandan. Host how far was she able to travel with lewis and clark and what was her role . What did she bring to the expedition . Guest part of her role was, a passive role because when other tribes saw her they realized there was no war party here. She is traveling with her baby on her back. So she went the entire way carrying her baby on her back and as my friend dayton dunca who worked with ken burns always i ink it was fred astaire, someoned e was like ginger rogers. She did everything backwards and in high heels. She did everything as a young mother with a baby on her back and there is really only one time that the baby got a little sick. It is an amazing story from the perspective of a young teenage woman. Host you have written a second book, we are going to our viewers. Why sacagawea it deserves a day off and other lessons from the lewis and clark trail. Is her role celebrated in your view enough . Guest she has more statues than any other American Woman so you could say yes it is. But i also say in that book her role has been expanded to the point he fingered statue. Like she was the guide. She really was more of a symbol of peace and she was also able to give them information like when they were getting closer to her people. It encourages the core because she said it we are almost there i know the sources i know this country this is where i was captured from care , that was a huge morale booster for the men. Host how many miles of the river have you traversed . Guest every summer we work with a group called lewis and clark adventures doing 150 miles of the upper missouri rive breaks national monument. Otrwise known as the it cliffs section of the missouri, i have done probably five days on the river on that trip. But there are people who do the entire missouri from three forks or sometimes even further all the way down to st. Louis or sometimes new orleans. Host do you canoe against it, do you canoe on the river . Guest we do but we do not go against it we go with the current. Host what is it like to canoe, here is a picture of you canoeing on the river. Where are you right there . Guest that is citadel rock. It was named by the steamboat captains because it was a marker they could recognize where they were and how farhad come. In thisicture i was going upstream because thed was blowing that way. Host it did not look like you are working very hard. Guest no i wasnt thats a great track its called a wind paddle. You can see through it, it has clear plastic and if there is wind you will get a ride. A free ride. Host even if you are going against the current . Guest yes. Host lets hear from some of our viewers lets hear from roger in mccook nebraska. How familiar are you with the lewis and clark trail . Caller not too familiar i live 300 miles from omaha so quite a ways from the Missouri River. I grew up in Southeastern Ohio and the question i had was did marietta ohio have a place in this expedition . I had heard that lewis and clark had to get to st. Louis and that marietta ohio, gathered their at the point of the muskingum at the ohio rivers to treat traverse the ohio river down to the mississippi to st. Louis. I am wondering if that is a fact or if that is true . Thank you. Guest they did travel on the ohio. Lewis and clark met, they got back together to forge their path out into the west and so yes, louis and i believe it was ordway had done some traveling on the ohio. Basically gathering men and supplies and things like that. Guest so we look at this is starting in st. Charles missouri where the missouri comes to the mississippi. Guest it has been expanded, correct. Host where do you think it starts . Guest its funny you mentioned it because i always thought where it started was in the library of Thomas Jefferson because it was actually alexander mackenzies voyages book that sparked jefferson to say we need to go out there and claim some of this too for ourselves, at least find out whats out there. So where it started, you could say it started even here in washington dc because this is where jefferson was an jefferson was telling louis what he wanted on this journey. What you are supposed to write about, what youre supposed to see and collect and tell us about. What was the first part . Host you answer the question where it started and expanded. Guest philadelphia and also baltimore could be included, washington. Harpers ferry is where lewis went to get all of the ammunition in the guns and his iron boat. All those places could be legitimately included in the lewis and Clark Expedition. Guest what about pittsburgh . Host yes, pittsburgh is where he was getting a lot of supplies and i am not sure it might have been where he got the dog. He had a dog with him too. Host i hope we hear more about the dog as we go. Josh is in albuquerque, josh you are on books that shaped america. Caller hi this is a great segment, i am really enjoying the details that are being offered. You just mentioned what i wanted to ask about was the dog. The big black newfoundland. And if there were any interesting stories or details that you might have about seamen. Host guest yes that was the question my father got most frequently, what happened to the dog . Actually he has a huge following amongst lewis and clark enthusiasts. Part of the story of the dog is that he was really the best friend of Meriwether Lewis because a lot of the times they were together on shore, hiking along the shore while clark and the men were on the boat. The dog, there are all kinds of adventures. He once got bit on the leg by a beaver and almost died. He managed to chase bison out of camp one night when the men were almost trampled by a bison. At one point, i believe this is on the ohio, there was a squirrel migration and lewis had him jump and dive into the squirrel migration and bring back squirrels for him to eat. He said they were great, we ate and had squirrel for dinner that night. He was extremely important in the story. Host we have mentioned sacagawea and we have mentioned the interaction a little with native americans, the indians as they refer to them. But lewis and clark kept detailed records of the native american tribes that they encountered. Here is david gary of the American Philosophical Society describing their socalled spreadsheet. David many people think of the lewis and Clark Expedition and the core discoveries that went with them as adventurers, people filling in gaps on the map, that is all certainly part of it. And there are many amazing adventure stories that come through it in the journals in the reports that came out of the expedition. But there is a side of it that people might not know about or it might not be as common as you think. What we have here is a document that was put together by William Clark that describes a data filled sheet. If there was a lot of data gathering during the expedition. What they were doing when they were gathering scientific information, they were taking weather readings. They were taking astronomical calculations. They were also keeping track of native americans and where they lived. The villages they lived in, and all the different statistics about their lives. This document represents a lot of data gathering over the course of the first part of the expedition going up the missouri and then toward the Rocky Mountains. You could see here, its called a list of names of the different nations and tribes of indians and having the country on the missouri and its waters west of the mississippi. Most of this is dealing with tribes as they went up the missouri and a little down here where you see a bit more of a gap but they were getting information from the tribes up here, talking about some of the tribes a little further to the west. But they have very complete information here and as you can see there are the names of the tribes, as well as languages they speak. The number of warriors associated with the tribe, places where they traffic or trade. The estimated value of some of their goods, it is a very long document. And a document like this was used by jefferson to write a really reporting important report after the expedition was complete giving this data to the public for the first time. The expedition had many goals, one of them was to work on diplomacy with native americans. But also to let native groups no that americans were not sovereign over the land. That they were traveling through, so it was an opportunity to announce this. The expedition can be thought of as an expection inspection in some way but also as a surveillance mission. In our terms today you could think of it as a National Security mission. Part of that was gathering data so they could trade better with native peoples and understand them in terms of defense in the future. This document really lays out in one setting a lot of what they were doing on a daily basis gathering all this data, putting it in the journals and then here it is laid out for us to see in one large sheet. Host Stephanie Ambrose tubs, diplomacy. Inspections. Security. Guest yes, in fact the speech that louis would give to the tribes, he would always mention the great father. Host Thomas Jefferson . Guest yes and he woulte certain higher ups in the tribe to come with him to washington and they came back home. To go and see the great father. It was an invitation in a way but it was also saying yes, we are pretty big on this landscape and we are coming west. Thdiplomatic aspect of this story cannot be oremphasized because it was huge. They had to find out who was ou there. Whos land that they were going to be occupying in effect. Who were these people that were living there. Host so when it came to returning to washington, did any of the chiefs, with them . Guest yes, one did. Actually probably several over the course after. But definitely one did his name was shaheke and he came back with him to washington. Host and what was his reception . Guest the problem was getting him back home and that took longer than they thought. But he got to see so many new and unusual things for him and then when he finally was returned to his tribe and told his tribe about it they did not believe him. They thought he was making up the things that he saw. It was important. Host security. Did this journal add to the security of the euro americans who were going west . Guest this particular addition . I think in terms of that, the security was that the men were well armed. They have, including on the boats, some guns that were almost like little cannons. The security was pretty tight. They even said to several of the tribes around basically, we are going to shut the doors of our fort at night. You are not going to be welcome here. They understood that if they put up a brave front and took the upper hand that they would be much more secure. Host so their interactions along the Expedition Range from friendly to unfriendly to hostile . Guest yes you could say that. You could. But also in terms of when they were coming out of the beirut mountains they could have been wiped out because they were so weak from hunger. It they were basically laying alongside the trail in the nez perce tribe really help them a lot. Gave them some roots and it did not agree with their systems but it saved them from starvation. Host kevin in Greenville South Carolina asks what was the most perilous moment on the expedition . Guest well, when they got to the ocean they had to hunker down for about a week or so in this place called dismal niche. They were pounded by serfs, including their canoes were pounded, they were wet the whole time. Her clothes were almost off of them at this point. And was cold. But it was probably the bitter roots that was the real test because it was snowy. There was no game, horses were sliding down the mountain. They basically were feeling like we need to get out of these mountains as fast as we can and they could not go very fast because they were going up and in snow with all of their baggage and its a hard job. Host karen in new haven connecticut. Caller good evening i thought undaunted courage was one of the best books i have read, however i would like you to talk about the slave of William Clark. And his contribution to the success of the expedition. And also what happened to him when he asked clark for his freedom after he returned and had worked as hard as every other person on the expedition. Thank you. Host thank you and in fact from october 9 1804 this is William Clark writing in the journals, the indians much astonished at my black serva a call him the big medicine. This nation never saw a black man before. Guest yes and there is a famous painting by Charlie Russell of york basically holding onto his pants and his shirt is off. And in indian is like licking his fingers and trying to rub the black off of his skin because they had never seen a black man before. As far as yorks contribution it would have been the sky this idea that this guy was this big medicine. It entranced the indians, sometimes he would make himself out to be more fierce than clark wished him to be and would pretend he was a bear and chase kids their camp. He was definitely important and after the expedition clark said no i am not going to give you your freedom. But eventually he did and he tried to set him up in a trade business and it did not work out and york came back to try to get into the family with clark family he had always known. Host what was his role during the expedition . Guest to be the manservant of clark but to contribute like every other expedition member whatever he could do. At one point he goes and gathers watercress off an island. Whatever any of the people on the expedition had a special talent in, whether cooking or gathering things, it would be utilized. Host we are going to read from the journal again this is july fourth 1804. All of the spellings you see on the screen are from the originalwere not making too many mistare at cspan. Covered with ak green grassre welllated for theweetest and most nourishing hay. Interspersed with crops of trees spreading their loftches over pool springs or brooks of fine w groups of shrubs covered with the most delicious fruit is to be seen in every direction and nature appears to have exerted herself to beautify the scenery. A lot of misspellings and that quote we just read. Guest we like to say clark was a creative speller. It was not a standardized form of spelling at that point but clark was also not really formally educated. He did his best. A lot of the times when you are reading the journals and you just read it out loud and sound out and then you say oh that is what he is saying, hurricane or whatever it happened to be. The word water millions he wrote when he meant watermelon. Its one of the things for me when im reading the journals and i am puzzled by a spelling or the sound of a word, if you read it like in a southern virginian accent you go oh that is what he meant. Host the other thing about that, a lot of the writing is a bit floury. Romantic. He seemed enchanted by what he was seeing. Guest particularly these out passages are unique to clark, most of the floury writing is Meriwether Lewis. He was much more descriptive and went on for pages whereas clark was more practical about lets just get it down. Host liz and prior lake minnesota. How and when did old highway 12 come to be more or less aligned with the lewis and clark route . I am especially curious about the low low pass segment. Guest that would have been based on the nez perce trail and the fact that they were following a trail that was established by native americans. Basically probably would have been like a game trail some of that way. But yes, they were following the way the indians went over and at certain points the indians told them heres the way you need to go. Host are you familiar with low low pass . Is that in montana . Guest yes the montana idaho border but you go up it on the montana side. It is hard. You can see them struggling in that section because it is steep and if its cold it is not fun. Host so we have the map back up. Where did they meet the most hostile indian nations and the most friendly . Gues the teton sioux near soutdakota, they call it the bad river. Ulhave been where they most almostot came to blows with them. It was basically over the sioux wanted to charge a toll for them to continue up the river and where was the most affinity and helpfulness would probably be the nez perce because they could have wiped them out and they did not. And the man down to help them a lot. Host rick is in ohio, you are on books that shaped america. Our guest is Stephanie Ambrose tubbs. Caller i have only two personal connections to this American History story. One many years ago i studied in high school this event, i have not studied beyond that so i dont know much about the story. Secondly im a collector of coins and i have all of the proof copies of the sacagawea coins which i treasure i would keo Say Something about that but here is my question. Why is lewis and clark always referred to as lewis and clark rather than clark and lewis . Thank you i will be listeng. Guest the reason i think lewiss name comes first is because i think he was approached first by jefferson to lead the expedition but lewis always insisted once clark signed on that he would be equivalent ranking with lewis. That they would both be captains which was extremely unusual to have two captains. But yes, that is basically it. Host and kevin you just previewed what were going to talk about in a few minutes so we will get into that in a minute but i want to get into i want to read again from the journals 5 6 1805 ther lewis writing a their encounters. I find that the curiosity of our party is pretty well satisfied with respect to this animal, the formidable appearance of the male bear killed on the fifth. Added to the difficulty with which they die when even st through the vital parts has aggered the resolution. Several of them. Others however seem keen for action with the bear. Was there a lot of wildlife encounters . Guest yes especially around presentday great falls montana. It was almost like the bears were defending their territory, the grizzly bears. The thing about lewis and the bear, especially grizzly, was that he assumed that the native accounts were exaggerated. That they could not be that ferocious. That they could not be that intent on destroying a person. But he found out different. That they were. And thats when he says i think our party is pretty much, our curiosity was satisfied with respect to these gentlemen. But imagine that. The bears were not afraid of people. They wanted to take them on, and yes grizzly bears were one of the things you probably had nightmares about if you were sleeping under a tent and you are hearing something outside. You are going i hope it is not a grizzly bear. Host one of the starting points for the lewis and Clark Expedition was st. Charles missouri. It is now in the st. Louis suburbs. Very close to the st. Louis airport in fact but it is on the Missouri River. Traveled there to see the lewis and clark boathouse and museum. They have a replica of the keelboat used by lewis and clark for part of the expedition. I am bill, the director of education here at the lewis and clark boathouse. And museum in st. Charles missouri. We are right along the banks of the Missouri River. We are right now standing on the fullsize replica of the keelboat that lewis and clarke used more than 200 years ago. The keelboat is based on drawings that clarke left in his journals. So the design of the boat, the size of the boat and so on, there is information about that in this boat was built based on those measurements and so on. The boat is 55 feet long, our boat is a little over 8 feet wide. And weighs 11 tons empty. In lewis and clarks day when they had their boat filled completely with supplies and equipment and so on it weighed more than 20 tons. You want to keep in mind as they left st. Charles they were heading up the Missouri River. Going against the current. They had several ways of moving the boat and one way was to row the boat. Clarke wrote in his journal, he described the boat as a boat of 22 orders, indicating 22 men to row it. They could also use the wind, the boat does have a mast on a pivot here that they could put up when the wind was in the right direction. Another way of moving the boat was to pull it. The lockers that we see right here that run the length of the boat served a couple purposes. First of all they were storage and also the men could get up on top of the lockers, have a long pole in their hand, pushing into the river bottom and then all of the men walked or lined up here on the lockers, walking towards the back of the boat at the same times time and that pushes the boat the other direction. So polling was another way. Another way to move the boat was cory dowling which comes from a french word for ropes. The men would actually get off the boat tied ropes to the front of it, then depending on where they are in relation to the riverbank they might be up on the riverbank dragging the 20 ton boat. Other times they might actually be in the Shallow Water and mud of the river and trying to drag this 20 ton boat. Most of the time it was hard manual labor just to move the boat. And they were able to average about 10 miles a day under good conditions, and again they are going against the current as they take the outbound trip. The keelboat in lewis and clark stay went as far as the mandan villages which were located in what today is central north dakota. At that point it was winter time by the time they got there, they knew they were going to have to send the keelboat back because they had gone far enough up the river. At the river get shallow at the farther up you go and they were not going to be able to take this big boat much farther. They with the man dance over that winter, in the spring they sent the keelboat back to the st. Louis area with everything they had collected up to that point. With their journals, with animal specimens and that sort of thing. That was in april of 1805. Host Stephanie Ambrose tubs, were married Meriwether Lewis or William Clark naval people to begin with . Guest no but they did hire a certain amount of people that knew a lot about riverboats. And they were hired basically to do the work you just saw. So when they got to fort mandan a lot of them were sent back so that the party went down a number to just 33 from like 45 ready for a belief. Anyway, what was the host today have a naval background . Guest no they had served together in the military but not navy. Host in a couple of those renditions that we saw they were all wearing the same uniform. A little bit later they had on civilian clothes i guess. Guest and then they also had leather breech cloths and they were making clothing out of animal hides because that is all they had. And once their own clothing were out, the captain especially lewis, when they gave the speech as to the natives they would all put on their best military regalia to impress them. Host what did they eat along the way . Did they bring supplies with them . The squirrels in the bears in the face . Guest that is a part of the story a lot dont think about. Many of the men were hired because they were good hunters, they were hunting basically every day. They also brought foodstuffs. Lewis made sure they were not going to starve. He had this thing called portable soup which was not real good tasting. They did not get into it until they started to starve but the food they had would be gathered, sometimes sacagawea would gather foodstuffs for them. Traded from the natives. They got a lot of food from them and brought by themselves or hunted. Host what were Meriwether Lewis and William Clark doing prior to this journey . And why did Thomas Jefferson choose Meriwether Lewis . Guest louis was his private secretary and he knew him. He had basically handpicked him and wanted him trained to do this expedition. And then lewis had served with clark as a Commanding Officer previously and so he approached clark and said would you be my partner in this expedition . Host did that military training come in handy . Guest yes it did for sure it was a military expedition and in fact here in washington by Lafayette Square is a statue to baron von steuben in the military drill men that they used was baron von steubens. So every single time they made camp it was all laid out, where their cook stoves would be. They hads three squads of men. Where those cook areas would be, where the toilet would be pure. It was all laid out by the manual. Host were they friends . Guest yes they were very good friends in fact that is part of the story that is most remarkable. You dont find them in the journals complaining about each other at all. They might have gotten annoyed several times but they werent really fast friends and the complemented each other. Host johnny from indiana, how are lewis and clarke able to geographically map the layout of the land if they could not it from above . Was there map accurate compared to todays map . Guest yes clark was relieved that very well suited to that mapping task. They used dead reckoning but they also had scientific instruments and celestial observations that help the map. It was very accurate. Host Meriwether Lewis 1805, i beheld the Rocky Mountains for tht time. While i viewed these mountains i felt a secret pleasure in finding myself so near the head of the hereto forived boundless missouri. Butn i reflected on the difficulties which this snowy barrier wo most probably throw in the way to my pacific and the suffering and rdships of myself and parting in them, it in some measure counterbalanced the joy i had felt in the firs moments in which i gazed on them. Guest yes indeed. At tt int i dont think he was actually looking at the Rocky Mountains he was looking at some other mounds that happen to be before he hit the rockies. But it was the idea that they had made progress and they were going to further their progress, proceed on. Host next call is john in Sun City Center florida. Good evening. Caller good evening i first want to thank stephanie for the tremendous work that her and her family have done. I dont want to use the word derogatorily at all but popularizing significant American History because they have made me fall in love with something i had fallen out of love with from being a younger man. My question is this, i had the pleasure of standing in nebraska at the spot where they came aground where it flows to the missouri. There were local students, Elementary School students had erected a monument to them. I am wondering with the bicentennial 20 or so years ago, if dr. Tubs is aware of other schools that have done similar things . That is my question. Guest yes. Local communities and states and agencies have all taken whatever part of the trail they have been made sure that the American Public knows they are part of the story. Yes. Host next call barbara and charlottesville virginia. Caller hello good evening. Thank you for this program i am learning so much and miss tubs, thank you particularly. I am an avid fan of your dad and especially the World War Ii Museum in new orleans. I am in charlottesville, the home of the clarks and the lewises but i am originally from louisville kentucky. Founded by the big brother of William Clark George Rogers clark and in fact was a volunteer docent at locust grove in louisville which was the last home of George Rogers clark. I wanted to know for a young cousin of mine called alex bauer at lee who now teaches in st. Louis middle schoolers and he just told me over the weekend that he is getting ready to teach a unit on lewis and clark. I wondered if you might give some thoughts about what would really capture the imagination of middle schoolers about lewis and clark in their expedition . Thank you so much. Guest guest i can tell you if you expose kids to the story, they can do more with it. They want to do things that bring to mind the adventures of lewis and clark, including young girls. They want to see where these places are and there are so many books for kids for a younger audience, and some of those are the best books out there. I sometimes say if you want a good book on the relationship between sacagawea and clark, people go, they seem to have some affection. It was always ins ok called sacagawea, she referred to him as her good uncle, so there was a relationship, a close relationship there, but it was not based on any sexual feelings or romance. It was that she respected him and she gave him for christmas a dozen arm entails. That in her culture would have been a way of recognizing a person as a leader. In her mind, she thought clark was more of a leader. In terms of units for children and younger audiences, there is a wealth of things out there. Kids gravitate toward the story because there is a baby, a young woman, a dog, all these rowdy guys, and i think the appeal of this story for young people is, could i do that too . Host how did her journey end . Did they drop her back off at fort mandan . Guest they did. Host with her husband . Guest yes, and her son. Ke a few days later write the letter to them and says, your who accompanied us on the long and fatiguing route deserves a greater reward. She never got a reward, but he offered to educate their young son in st. Louis. They brought him down there, they left him, and she died in about 1812 of what was commonly referred to as fever. What happened when she left her firstborn son far away, probably realizing she would never see him again, and she might have died of a broken heart. Host so Thomas Jefferson never met sacagawea . Guest he did not. Host did she play a big role in these journals . Guest no. She was mentioned, and she actually saved the journals one time when their boat flipped over and her husband could not swim, and she was the one who gathered the journals, got the things that were floating away. At that point, they named a nearby creek after her, called the bird woman creek, which was their understanding of her name. Host and Stephenie Ambrose tubbs other book is called other lessons from the lewis and clark trail. With this be for fifth or middle school . Guest i think so. I approach to this whole story is that this is a story for everyone and one of the leading scholars of. Lewis and clark said every generation rediscovers this story, and it is 225 years later and we are still learning new things and still teaching this story, and kids are so busy asked about learning about this. Host harold from fort oaks, north carolina. Caller hello. Earlier we were talking about the low pass and highway 12. There were several times in the late 1980s and early 1990s that we were out there, but several miles up, you go beyond the Jerry Johnson space, there is boulder peek to the west. You go several miles up there and they have lewis and clark on aluminum plates nailed onto the trees through there . Where they that high up that they couldnt fault in the river . Guest i know what you are talking about, the trail markers with the insignia of the trail. And also when they went over the low low trail they were definitely watching for signs that they knew there were people on the other side, so they were watching for them. Host another journal entry from may 31, 1905. Meriwether lewis. The cliffs we passed today exhibited a mmantic appearance, and as we passed through it, it seems as those scenes of an visionary enchantment, for here it is true that nature presents the view to the traveler vast rangese most tolerable workmanship. So perfect indeed are those walls that it wouldave been thought that nature attempted here to achieve the art of human masonry. In their maps today, do they check the topography as well . Guest they did. They had symbols for where it was extremely mountainous and what they were experiencing in terms of, there was no game in that country, or inforti like that. My favorite part oth trail is that area, the white cliffs session seconand my husband and i do it every suer the 2. 5ay trip through the most spectacular part through the Missouri River break, and it is a national monument. I always tell people it is your birthright to take that trip and you are going with the current. Depending on the river weather, it could be one of the most beautiful trips you take. Host a couple of our colors have callers have asked about learning more about Meriwether Lewis and William Clark. We have a podcast and we talk with an author talking about Meriwether Lewis and William Clark as people a little bit more. You can see the qr code there. Snap that and you can go right to the podcast, or you can get this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I also want to mention our website, cspan. Org booksthatshapemeca. On this website, all 10 of the booksilbe featured in this series, bu if you click on the lewis and clark, you will find related videos and Background Information you may find interesting as well. Half hour left in our program. If you live in the eastern or central time zones and have a question or comment for our guest. And if you want to send a text message, 202 7488003. Was the journey of lewis and clark part of the enlightenment . Guest yes. I would like to say that they carried the enlightenment on their backs. What jefferson gave to lewis, it was basically the enlightenment and we want to give answers that every american wantso go into that country will need to ge there. Yes, indeed. Host was it legal . Guest was it legal . Host that is an interesting question. Guest like i said, the Montana Historical society says it was neither an empty or unknown. There were people out there and people had claimed to the land so you could consider it extralegal, but they were also authorized by the president to get this information, so that makes it legal. Host on their return, they had mapped out we looked at the earlier maps that were very empty, and they had returned with a more complete map. The library of congress has that map here. Here before me is the only surviving copy of a map that was made in 1805 by William Clark, along with the company that was stationed at fort mandan. One of the biggest differences between this map and the 1803 map they took when they traveled as this area, including the course of the Missouri River, which previously had been shown as a dotted line. Here it has been elaborated in much more detail. This was made in the winter of 1804 to 1805, and temperatures in the forte were below 20 degrees, even dropping below 40 degrees. While they were stationed there, you have William Clark huddled and drawing maps, trying to convey the information they were gathering. Up to this point, much of the information had come from the lists they were taking and observations they were making, but from here on words, this was an area they had not traveled yet. This information is coming from a variety of sources. As you can see, these mountains right here are the Rocky Mountains, but they look much less imposing than the Rocky Mountains that we know. If you follow the course of the Missouri River, you pass right through the mountain and end up somewhere in northern california. This map helps keep alive this dream of a navigable passage by water from the United States all the way to the pacific. Mapping the area through mississippi was one of the main goals of lewis and clarks expedition, and much of the responsibility of creating the map was given to William Clark. After he put together this map, it was shipped back to washington and this copy was made, along with a few other copies, by nicholas king. Copies were made for congress, the president , and the secretary of war. This is the only one that survived. This was reported in newspapers all over the east coast. Everyone was eager to see what the lewis and Clark Expedition was learning. This map is the only surviving copy of the map drawn by William Clark during that winter of 1804 to 1805, so it is one of the unique treasures of the library of congress. Host that is from our partner in this series, the library of congress. A fascinating map we just saw. Guest it is. Host marjorie from california, go ahead. Caller thank you for this wonderful program. My question has to do with maps, and that is, what kind of survey being surveying and technical elements were available at the time that they were able to bring with them . And also, could you say a few things about the other people in the corp . Where they botanists or geographers or people with technical or scientific backgrounds who were there also to augment the observations and instrumentation . Host thank you, marjorie. Guest yeah, there were talents among the many members of the expedition, including one who was a carpenter, one who was very good at working with. Nettle working with metal. They all brought something to the expedition. In terms of a scientist, it would have been lewis at the head because he had been trained in philadelphia, so he learned directly from botanists and etc. The other part of your question was about the scientific instruments. They brought many measuring devices of the day that they used. A compass and things to measure latitude and longitude. Some of those measurements were helpful and some of them were not, but they definitely had the uptodate Science Equipment of the day. Host lewis and clark were not the only two who wrote the journals. Here is an entry on christmas 1805 joseph white house. We have no ardent spirit of any kind among us, but mostly in good health, blessing after we have seen more of all the luxuries of life that can afford on the party are thankful to the supreme being for his gooes towards us, hoping he can preserve us in the same and enable us to return to the United States again in safety. Who was joseph white house . Guest joseph white house was one of the younger members of the expedition, as i recall, and it seems that he was definitely using either some of lewis or clarks words about the ardent spirit, because that is passage they also wrote about. I am blanking on his particular talent right now, but i am sure if he was keeping a journal, he was one of the educated ones. He would have been one of the record keepers, and they were extremely important. Host each week is a series where we show a teacher and how they use whatever book we are talking about as a teaching tool. This is shauna, and eighth grade social studies teacher at kurt middle school in council bluffs, iowa. This is how she teaches lewis and clark. When we are teaching about lewis and clark, it is very unique for my students because we have the advantage of being on part of the trail that lewis and clark went on. We can actually make references to things that happened here in council bluffs. And also, just a little bit north of us, Sergeant Floyd died, so the students have that connection with the document, with the history. And they can see how it connects not just with its history, but making the connection of history that actually happened here. President jefferson wanted them to be acquainted with the indigenous people, so he wanted the names of the nations and the numbers of people that were in that nation. He wanted to know what their possessions were, the relations with the other tribes, the language, the traditions, the monuments, the agriculture, the fishing, the hunting and the warriors, the food, clothing, shelters, the remedies that they had. And when we get into that discussion, the kids start to recognize that Thomas Jefferson was really starting to ask not just, hey, map this out, but map out all that you see, all that you encounter. And we get into that next little part where it talks about knowing the land, knowing the climate, the animals. He wanted all that information, so he was really doing a deep dive into what is it that you see there. And with students, they like looking at that. They kind of struggle when they are looking at that part, though, with what we see today. Since we live in the area, they struggle with, ok, why wouldnt he want to know all this stuff . And it becomes a very deep conversation about what would he use that knowledge with . What would he do with it . Host we want to thank shauna cohacek for her teachings of lewis and clark with us. Guest it is a good way to hook younger audiences to get them into the classroom. Host and she is in council bluffs, iowa, which is on the Missouri River. If you could go back in time to rejoin the expedition, which seen would you choose to visit . Guest i have thought about that a lot, and i always think about when clark and his party, which includes sacagawea at that point, he was separated from lewis, come apart come upon a formation in montana, and was named for the nickname that clark game to gave to sacagaweas son. I think he probably told her, i am going to sign my name on this rock that i am naming for your son because i appreciate what you did. I feel like even though they were getting eaten alive by mosquitoes at that point, that meant something to her. Host you can find out more on the podcast about Meriwether Lewis and William Clark. It is a companion protest to this program and dives deeper into their history podcast to this program and dives deeper into their history. What happened to william and William Clark and Meriwether Lewis after they presented the journals in 1806 . Guest it was diametrically opposed on what happened to them. Although they were both given land, and lewis became the governor of the territory, and clark became the supervisor of territorial affairs. Unfortunately, lewis in 1809 is going down through he is trying to justify the spending back to washington, but he is going to the nexus straits. He is thinking about all these things he has to justify, these expenditures. He is dosing himself with medicines and drinking a lot. Most scholars believe he killed himself, and it is a sad ending for louis because we all fell in love with lewis reading the journals. He was a very lyrical writer. Clark lived to have a large family and he lived to an older gentleman. When he died, his funeral was one of the biggest they had ever seen in st. Louis, so he was a hero. Host history of the expedition under the command of captains lewis and clarke is not the only book in this era that is on the library of Congress Books that shaped america list. Heres a look at other books on that list. Starting in 1855, the First Edition of Walt Whitmans leaves of grass was published. Little women, Louisa May Alcott s novel about women living in massachusetts, was published in 1808. Sisters Catherine Beecher and Harriet Beecher stowe released the domestic guide with the American Womans home in 1869, and poems by Emily Dickinson was published in 1890. Here are more books from the library of Congress List of 100 books that shaped america. Jacob reese documented poured new york city Living Conditions with his photojournalistic work. Frederick jackson turners the front tier of American History was published in 1893. The red badge of current courage was released in 1895 during the civil war. And the wizard of oz was published in 1900. Host those are some of the books on the library of Congress List of 100 books that shaped america. These areot bestsellers, not the eatest books of all time. Ese are books that have had an impactn who we are today, on our history, and on public policy. We appreciate having this list to have our 10 week series based on. Before we run out of time, Stephenie Ambrose tubbs, what is the legacy in your view of lewis and clark and their journals . Guest i think there are many legacies, but to me, the most important one is the factor of curiosity. Jeffersons curiosity, lewis ability to follow out instructions, the idea that we are still curious. We are still looking around the bend in the river and trying to see, what was it that they saw . How can we get closer to what it was back then . Host wwant to give an idea of what was going on in america during the lewis and Clark Expedition. President jefferson hadad secret negotiations to buy florida. Napoleon ws were going on. Burr kills hamilton. The 12th amendment was ratified. That is where you have the vote for the president and Vice President on the same ballot. The legacy of lewis and clark. Here are just a few of the things from this expedition that have happened. Of course, there is the National Historic trail, National Park service in 2019 designated pittsburgh as the original stting point. There is a u. S. Naval ship, the lewis and ip. It has been in Service Since 2012. There is the. S. Naval ship sacagawea since 2008. Several hools are named for lewis and clarke. There is lewis and clark college, lewis and clark lake in nebraska and south dakota. Undaunted courage was a bestseller published in 1996 by the father of our guest, stephen ambrose, and the university of nebraska published full journals of lewis and clark in 2001. Those are available online. William clark was promoted to captain in 2001 by president bill clinton. The website for this entire series is cspan. Org booksthatapedamerica. On top of that website, there is a button, vier put. If you would like to submit your video of what you think the book that shape america or a book that shaped america is, click on there. An easy two steps and here are some of the submissions we have got. My name is Justin Martin from indiana. One of the books that shaped america is the adventures of huckleberry finn. A great book that delves into one of the crucial things that shaped this country. Slavery and jim and accrual moral tale about two mismatched people a cruel moral tale about two mismatched people who have to find their way at a tough time in america. The book i think shaped america is a dad, poor dad, because it is seen as a Financial Literacy. Rich dad, poor dad changed the game when it comes to Financial Literacy and educating us on Financial Literacy. I am elements see and this is me. I think america is constantly being shaped by books that are published on the one recently written was one that talks about the issues that are underlining america every day that are on the fringes, but when you read it, you realize there is a whole population and its struggles, that it is affecting all of us, yet we turn a blind eye to it. My name is meera and i wanted to tell you i think that one of the book so that helped shape america is charlottes web because it really taught about human compassion and having compassion for those around you, whether they are human or not. I think it is a wonderful story about life lessons that one should know about as they grow up. Thank you. I am amanda from south florida. I think magic tree house saved america, gave kids a love for reading. I am from georgia. I feel like this book did a great job looking at eential issues of america and i really loved it. Host send us your ideas for bos that shaped america. Go to cspan. Org bo oksthatshapedamerica. Hit the input for viewers at the top. Robert from tensile vania, you might have the last word tonight pennsylvania, you might have the last word tonight. Caller thank you. I read your dads book and i got excited about the lewis and Clark Expedition. So i read the book on lewis and clark, among the indians. I do not think you have mentioned that book today, but i would be curious to hear what you have to say, only because it appears that the indians were absolutely essential to saving the lives of these white men who were venturing out in indian territory who almost died not only on one occasion, but i believe it was on several occasions. The indians supplied them with food, things about their clothes, medicines, how to ndirection through thed how to passes that the indians had already figured all of that out for. Host robert, we will have to leave it today. I apologize. Stephenie ambrose tubbs. Your answer for robert . Guest my answer is that i would say remind me the first part of the question . Host he talked about a book that has been written. Guest and i do agree that they did need the native help. They would not have made it without them. There is a little bit of speculation that they would have been all right without them, but i do not think they would have. I would also like to remind people that the natives actually sat down and mapped things. They showed them just on the ground, here is the way you want to go, so that his crucial information. And the fact that they were able to listen to music to gather the campfire at night and the indians would dance and the members of the expedition would play a fiddle and dance, i think music was tremendously important to the feeling of conviviality that they had when they were camped with the natives. Host Stephenie Ambrose tubbs came out from helena, montana to join us, and you have a fun fact about helena. Guest yes. There are many places named either lewis or clark or lewis county or clark county. I am from the only lewis and Clarke County in america. Please visit us. Host Stephenie Ambrose tubbs, lewis and clark companion, is one of her two books. She is with the lewis and clark trust and we appreciate you coming east to spend time with us on books that shaped america. Thank you to all of our viewers and callers. We appreciate it