Keep up with the latest events with hearings from the u. S. Congress, white house events, campaigns and more from the world of politic, all at your fingertips. You can also stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for cspans tv networks and cspan radio plus a variety of compelling podcasts. Cspan now is available from the apple store and google play. Download it today. Your front row seat to washington, any time, anywhere. Coming up next, utah republican governor spencer cox talks about bridging the political divide. He currently serves as the chair of the National Governors association. His remarks are part of the atlantic festival held here in washington, d. C. Goovernor cox, thank you for joining us, bright an early. Thank you for having me here. I want to read you some findings from pew, a big survey from last year that i think captures the depths of the problem youre trying to address. You surveyed so pew surveyed thousands of people and found that 63 of democrats view republicans as immoral and 2 of republicans feel the same way about democrats. Further, 7 of republicans call democrats dishonest, 83 of democrats call republicans closed minded. What that says to me is were at a point in the country where significant majorities of people on both sides dont just disagree with each other. They see the other side as fundamentally bad people whose views from invalid. Right . Before we get to potential solutions and the initiatives you have, im curious how youve seen that those conditions manifest in your own state, in your own life as a political leader. What is the trickle down effect of those those that political culture were talking about . Governor cox i think weve all seen it. Sadly the polarization is increasing. Just before that pew data came out, rachel cline feld kleinfeld with carnegie, her research around polarization, i encourage everyone to read her research, the focus son what happens when we get so extremely polarized. What were stheeng ground is, her focus is on Political Violence and its sig and a significant increase in Political Violence. Threats against members of congress over the last six or seven years have increased 10field. Threats of Political Violence increased 10field. Against the judiciary, its doubled. Thats kind of the extreme of what happens when we drain all the trust out of the system. New shes also studied failing democracies, republics like ours, across the world and across time. Shell tell you and it says in this report that we are passing all of these check points. So you tweeted last week, i believe theres a very real chance of a complete failure of our Democratic Institutions, a complete failure of our Democratic Institutions and our republic. So thats how seriously you take. This governor cox you think this is funny . Seriously, im not prone to hyperbole. Im usual the person who is very cynical and dismisses all of that. Sadly, politicians, one of the things that i think is different today, is that politicians have figured out how to use fear to divide us. So some of that data coming from pew, why sit we think why is that so dangerous . Ill say that in a second. But i truly believe that were living through kind of an 18 50s experience in our country again. As you drain the trust from the system, as jonathan haik said, you end up not just with fail dwhroifers Democratic Institutions, it ends not just with us hating each other but it ends with people shooting each other. It should scare all of us. Should scare all of us to do whatever we can to stop that, to reengage each other many positive ways. But heres the point to all ofthis. Its not what republicans and democrats believe. Its what republicans think democrats believe and what democrats think republicans believe. Its called a perception gap. Weve all heard about it. Very well documented. It exists. It turns out most democrats and most republicans arent that far apart philosophically. We just arent. But we think we are. And thats dangerous. Because if you think that the other side is willing to violate democratic norms, if you think the other side is willing to engage in Political Violence, if you think the other side is willing to do all these crazy things, then you get permission to your side to do the same thing. Thats whats dangerous. Because we start trying to oneup each other. Well you know, if democrats hate the constitution, are trying to destroy the country, we have to do that too. If republicans are trying to destroy the country and january 6, then i guess we have to do that type of stufftoo. And my question is, where does it end . Where is the line . That overton window keeps moving. We become numb to it. So we hear the latee things. I will say that every republican thinks all the democrats are like a. O. C. All the democrats think were all Marjorie Taylor greene. Thats what people think. Its not true and we know its not true. But again, all of this all the social media, cable muse, they reward the loudest voices and the most extreme voices. That makes us think that everybody is like the extremists. You and other governors have developed a thing to address this problem, its called disagree better. I think its different from the talking points we have heard in the past like, we need greater civility. We need to be nicer to each other. Its a little different from that. So tell us what the initiative is and how you think it will work. Governor cox the chair of the governors organization, we always have a republican chair, democratic vice chair, and switch every other year. Governor polis of colorado, my neighbor, is vice chair this year. Looking at the landscape, choose Something Like education or Health Care Policies like governors have done in the past. We already have an initiative. Just realize, we cant solve any of these big problems in our country if we hateve other. I mean look at congress this week. We cant keep the government open, how can we solve immigration or health care . So decided that this would be our thing. That we would work on disagreeing better. Immediately your thoughts go someplace. Usually its like, oh, great, another civility initiative, how to be nice to each other. By the way, we should be more civil and nice to and nicer to each other. This is not that. Let me be very clear. This is not that. This is truly about disagreeing. And i believe that disagreement is critical. I think our nation is founded on profound disagreement. Our constitution came together with people who profoundly disagree. Its about disagreeing in healthy ways. Instead of the toxic ways were learning about today. And we have a history replete with figuring these things out. Thousand disagree without hating each other. How to disagree without shooting each other. How to disagree in productive ways that actually, actually lend themselves to better policy. Sadly we gotten away from that. So this is also not just governor coxs whim. Were using real see vernlg and data from some of the greatest constitutions in our greatest institutions in our country. Stanford, duke policy labs. Really the work theyre doing, the behavioral science theyre doing, how to depot larrize society. And so im grateful for my fellow governors who are willing to step into this. One of the things we learned from some work done at stanford is actually, an ad i did, i didnt know was submitted to their study. If you can get just quick background. 2020 election. One of those weird states where our Gubernatorial Election is the same time as the president ial election. 2020, im running for governor. Right in the middle of the craziness of the pandemic and bidentrump. And a friend of mine. We were talking about, not the president ial about the president ial election. I said im worried if trump wins the left will burn it down because weve just seen the riots in the wake of George Floyds murder across the country. I said i worry if biden wins that the right is going to shoot it up, you know. January 6 happened after that. She said, there isnt anything you can do. I got with my democratic opponent. We decided to film an ad together. Never been den before. I said im spencer cox, republican. I think you should vote for me. My opponent was, im a democrat, i i think you should vote for me. Its a quintessentially utah moment. Youre running against each other but youre like, hey, guys, lets calm down. Governor cox thats what it was. While we disagree on a lot of things we can agree we candice agree without hating each other. Well find ways to work together. The ad did go viral. Kind of a counterpaint to the count point to the president ial election. Governor cox a professor submitted it to this study. It had an effect on depot larrizing people. Lowering the temperature. Especially toward Political Violence. [applause] so it worked, at least for a short amount of time. Thats the other thing they found out. So my other i guess my ive asked my colleagues to engage in this work. Governor polis and i filmed an ad together around the dinner table. Your maga uncle and your woke niece can have a conversation and we can do this. We just have the governor the governors of kansas and missouri, republican and democrat, film an ad together. Were getting it edited right now. Well be doing a lot more of that among other things. But trying to offer some counterprogramming to what is likely to be the next most effective election of our lifetime. [applause] you mention yao been looking at the sign of conflict, how we get trapped in it, how we can move from it. This isnt just an issue that can be zoed at me the political leader level. It has to be solved at an interpersonal level. Im curious, what are some surprising findings youve come across in term os of how that woke niece and maga uncle can get along with each other or at least talk about issues in a way that doesnt drive them further apart . Governor cox what we found is a lot of this counterintuitive. Its counterintuitive to politics but also to human nature. John adams said that without institutions and without patience and humility, these virtues that are so missing, that we are all craven political beasts, basically. Thats what he said. So look. What i hear the most often is, i hear a little more from the left than the right. But from the left i hear, why would i engage with those people . Who hate everything about me, disagree with who i am as person, Lgbtq Community, why would i engage with those people whoan they dont give me the respect or dignity of humanity. And the answer actually is and the studies were clear, first of all, its the only way to get them to change hearts and minds and engage in their humanity. When we engage it never changes minds. It never works. But it feels good to us. It feels good on social media. We get that dopamine hit. It gets eyeballs. Not the atlantic but other media. We are of no party. Governor cox this is true. Im grateful to be a token conservative on the stable. [applause] we love republicans who quote atlantic writers back to us. Thats why you were invited. Governor cox it goes against our human nature. But when wedo it, it can change. Then to see it work. Ive shared this before. The lgbtq i get the initials wrong sometimes, please forgive me. Group in utah. Wonderful human being, troy williams, who runs that institution. Instead of kind of taking the traditional advocacy space which hes done in the past, say something, tear them down, fundraise off of it, try to cancel them. He bought a booth at the Republican State Convention this year. People were very upset. Tried to get them thrown out. And to his credit he came and it was fascinating to watch. People became very angry, screaming. He would engage kindly. He would ask he used curiosity to ask them, to tell me more about why you feel so strongly aboutthis. Truly wanted to know. Why do you feel this way . I love my family, i love my country, i feel like what youre doing is destroying it. And he would say things like i love my country too. Im grad you love your family. Tell me more about your family. And then after a while hed say, can i tell you how i feel . Because hed been so willing to listen. Not just listening to argue or debate but truly interested, then they would say sure, tell me 40u you feel. One of the most extreme case, at the end he would say, now im going to give you the last word. This person who was incredibly angry at the beginning, gave him a hug and apologized. So again i can tell you stories the other way as well. Ive had people screaming at me for being a conservative and but its the only way i know to fix this. So you can complain and say this isnt fair. You shouldnt have to do this. Im like, keep doing it your way, lets see how it ends. It ends very badly for us. A lot of people in this room are nodding along to what youre saying about cooling the temperature in the culture wars and improving our political discourse. But where the rubber hits the road with this stuff is always when you get to an issue that people disagree about so profoundly that they dont they see it as nonnegotiable. So you know, to that end, lets talk about for example Transgender Health care. You signed a bill earlier this year that banned Transgender Health care, certain forms of it, socalled gender affirming surgery, hormone therapy for people under 18 you obviously received enormous backlash if the Lgbtq Community in utah and across the country. I guess i wonder, how do you, you know, disagree better with people who say that you are trampling on their rights . That youre treating them as, you know, inhuman. How does does this initiative, are there issues where it doesnt work . Governor cox i dont think it ever hits the ceiling where it doesnt work. But i understand the question. This is part of the criticism we get the most of. The other criticism is you want us to go along to get along. Thats not true. I want you to passionately argue for what you believe in. But attack ideas, not people. The other criticism is this. Look. Some people think the disagree better means i get to win on every issue. Thats just not true. Thats not how it works. In government or in a society. You win some, you lose some. I do think theres an issue with trust being drained out of the system. Trust in our institutions. We can talk about that later. In this particular situation, so, how did you do this . It looks like the conservatives got their way. And the Lgbtq Community, the transgender community, they just lost. And thats certainly one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is, i invited transgender youth and their parents to the Governors MansionGovernors Mansion along with legislative leadership and the people running the bill. Before the legislative session started. So that we could get to know each other. They could get to know each other as human beings. I knew this was going to come up. I knew it was probably going to pass. I can talk about why i signed it. We dont have time gothere but this night was really important. And it changed a couple of things that i think matter. One is it changed the tone of the debate. If you look at the debate on other states on this issue, some things that were said were just terrible, just awful. There was a little bit of that here but mostly it was respectful. I think that matters. You may think its a distinction without a difference but i think it matters. There were changes in this bill that i think mattered. It went from a complete ban to a pause. Were going to get more science, more research, more information down the road. I think that matters. Again, the end effect is the same but i think that matters. We added 1 million to organizations that give free they are foy transgender youth. Again, in a super conservative state with a supermajority republicans, they set aside money to help transgender youths. And then for those who are already going through those processes and already on those medications, they allowed that to continue which didnt happen in many other states. Those were three changes that happened in the bill, i think because we had this moment where we came together, even though we disagreed passionately. The last thing i want to say, and this got no attention, again in a super conservative majority legislature, we passed a bill on that that ended or banned conversion therapy and it passed unanimously. And this is the same legislature. That got no attention. We had a signing ceremony again with Equality Utah and the two most conservative and that bill started out as a bill to reinstate conversion therapy. And because they sat down together in a room for weeks and negotiated in good faith and didnt blow each other up in the media, didnt try to tear each other down, they came to that conclusion. So again, again, if you if you have a transgender youth you might be really angry at us right now. And some people did move out of our state and i feel terrible that they felt like they had to do that. Im not saying you shouldnt be angry or shouldnt be upset or shouldnt be passionate and disagree. I am saying that because we were a able to engage in good faith, some Different Things happened. And again, traditionally thats what weve done as a country. But the last 10 years were not doing any of that. I want in the last few minutes we have to talk about another driving force in our polarization is social media. Utah has taken kind of distinctive approach to social media. Particularly when it pertains to teens. You let me make sure i get the details right but you recently passed threation would prohibit people under 18 from having social media accounts without parents consent. It would enforce a statewide social media curfew for kids. And give parents access to their kids private messages. What was the thinking there . What problem were you trying to address and how has it worked so far . Governor cox ill answer the second question first. We have a arealong implementation. It hasnt started yet. Were working with Tech Companies to implement and theres also litigation. Governor cox theres litigation in other parts of the country, arkansas and texas as well. The problem here as weve seen, the rates, especially amongst youth of anxiety, depression and selfharm, suicide, starting in about 2011, 2012, have just skyrocket. The data is clear. More and more research is showing not just a correlation but a causal link between an increased use of social media and degradation in Mental Health p with our young people. And thats what were trying to get at. Thats what were trying to solve. The most addictive features of the social Media Companies that they put into place, trying to remove those from kids accounts. Lets be honest. Its screwing all of us up, dulls too but its much more dangerous with youth. Especially those going through puberty. Again the research is more clear all the time. So thats what were trying to solve. Were not trying to tell parents how to parent. Were trying to give parents and families the tools that they need. I will also say that despite, like, wow, you passed some controversial legislation this year on social media. Its the least controversial legislation weve ever passed. 85 of utahans support it. And like 10 dont know and the other 5 are opposed to it. Its that small. Republicans and democrats across the country have reached out to us including congress. President biden when he came to utah it was the first thing to talk about. He said he was grateful we were able to get it done. Hes hoping to get it done at the congressional level as well. So we can i truly believe that i do now but as a society we will look back on the way we gave unfettered access to social media to our kids, the same way we look at cigarettes in the 1950s and 1960s, and opioids 10 years ago. That it caused immense damage and that we were blind to it. And by the way the social Media Companies knew and covered it up, just like Cigarette Companies and opioid companies. [applause] not to step on the applause but you are a pretty well known twitter addict. I feel like you need to disclose that for the fawp here. As i am i. Governor cox i think thats how we met the first time was via twitter. So i will say, speaking as an addict i have insight into how dangerous these tools can be. [laughter] by the way, i dont know if you heard, its x now. X. Im sorry. Apologies to elon, wherever he is. Governor cox is he not after me . Special guest appearance. So i guess the last question i want to ask you, theres no getting around the fact that as you are working to improve the political discourse and the political culture in this country, you belong to a party that is led by a man who is his entire persona is anathema to this project. You know, you mentioned were probably heading into another extremely ugly, extremely Divisive Campaign season. First, i should get you on record. Do you want donald trump to be your partys nominee next year . And then the followup to that is, if he is, what is that going to do to this initiative . Governor cox i know were winding up. Thanks for having me. I preebt. This i can see your bosses are like, oh, no, mitt romney is retiring, we have to get another mormon to get on stage. There you go. Does that mean youre running for senate . Can i get you on record . Governor cox no. I should say member of the church of christ of latter day saints. Its our style guide at the atlantic. Governor cox the answer is no, i would love someone else. Im a big fan of governors, i think governors make good president s. We have lots of governors running for office. I would love to see someone else. I think just look. This is really important to all of us right now. Some recent polling showed that 70 of republicans dont want donald trump to actually run. And 75 of democrats dont want joe bide ton run. We have a super majority of our nation doesnt want either of home to run. And yet, and yet theyre both probably going to be nominees. So that talks about our system and how messed up it is. Another story for another time. But i think the point here that is really important is the fact that they are means that this work is more important than ever before. That we desperately need more of this. Again that overton window, the fact that were numb to some of the things that are said, some of the actions that are taken, just reiterates. And we cant expect politicians to say. This it is to save this. It is every single one of us. In a very real way, what you post on facebook is doing as much damage to our country and to our world, its a global security, by the way. Vladimir putin, xi jinping, they love this stuff. They las vegas the way were tearing each other apart. And the world needs a strong, unified america more than ever before. So i would just encourage all of us to think twice, any time yourecy ceying those republicans or those democrats. Those people. Then youre doing it wrong and youre hurting, youre hurting our country there. Is nothing more unamerican than hating our fellow americans. And its up to all of us to change these things not the other way around. Think twice and reach out to people who are different than you. Governor cox, thank you very much. [applause] healthy democracy doesnt just look like. This it looks like this. Where americans can see democracy at work. When citizens are truly informed, our democracy thrives. Get informed straight from the source, on cspan, unfiltered, unbiased, wordforword. From the Nations Capital to wherever you are. Because the opinion that matters most is your own. This is comma democracy looks like. Cspan, powered by cable. Tonight, watch cspans series in partnership with the library of congress, books that shaipped america. Well feature the journals of lewis clark. The journals came about following the louisiana purchase. President jefferson commissioned Meriweather Lewis to lead and expedition. He chose clark to help with the mission. They have detailed journals on the plant and animal life, native peoples and potential trade routes. Stephanie ambrose tubbs, author of several books on lewis and clark, and hiker of the lewis and clark trail, will join us. Be sure to scan the q. R. Code to listen to our companion podcast where you can learn more about the authors of the book featured. Since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, cspan has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress. From the house and Senate Floors to congressional hearings, party briefings, and committee meetings. Cspan gives you a front row seat to how