Susan welcome back to cspan. It was before covid that we saw you. We have been working on a biography about gerald ford a long time. Richard a surprising portrait, in many ways. There are a lot of actual revelations in the book that i am sort of surprised. He was personally blackballed by hoover as a young man, light glowing recommendations because hoover found out that ford had been involved with America First. At yale. He spent more time at yale then heated at the university of michigan. He knew about the legal problems six months before he ever acknowledged it. The interesting thing is that means the white house new earlier, too. Ford was a much more ambitious figure than the persona. He wanted to be Richard Nixons running mate in 1960. He discovered a process just before he left the presidency. He was approached by bill, secretary of the treasury, about john mitchell. The Campaign Manager who went to jail for his part in the watergate affair. Ford turned him down. I dont think it was because of any sort of aftermath. Quite simply, ford had been taught to look for the good in everyone. That led some people to see him as naive. The other side of the coin was, just as he was honest with people, he expected them to be honest with him. Two days after the watergate breakin, ford confronted mitchell oneonone and asked did you know anything about this . Mitchell denied it. Ford said later on that guy lied to my face. That was something you didnt do. There are a lot of those kinds of factual discoveries. A lot it was the surprise. Historically, i think ford went to his grave believing what most of us believed, which was his historical legacy would be seen as his efforts to restore an element of trust after watergate and vietnam and all of the tumult of the 60s as well of as well as this 1970s. He, the surprise is, almost 50 years on, with the perspective that comes with time, the access to papers and oral histories, and not least of all, eight successive presidencies that you can compare against ford. It turns out that ford was much more of an initiator than he was a caretaker. The couple quick examples. Economic deregulation that we take for granted today. We may argue about it, but it is hard to talk to a young person today and imagined there was a time when bureaucrats in washington decided where a plane could fly or what a truck could carry, or where you could get a home mortgage. All of that began under ford. And then the carter and reagan administrations. Today, we take it for granted. It transformed the american economy. In 1975, he signed the accords, for which he was severely criticized. It was seen at the time as a concession to the soviets, acknowledging their empire in eastern europe. And now, after the cold war, had access to a whole lot of documents. Do we realize that was a real milestone on the road that led to the collapse of the soviet union . The new york city fiscal crisis, ford city dropdead. It cost him new york and the presidency in 1976. The great irony, the democratic governor of new york and fords sparring partner in public throughout all that, went against his own partys nominee in 1976 and for me, jerry ford has never gotten the deserved. For what was an tough love policy to a new york city. There is just a whole lot of things that either we thought we knew. You know, it was fords misfortune to be in the white house when saturday night live went on the air. In october of 1975. I think there are a whole lot of people whose first memory of gerald ford, they think of chevy chase falling down as gerald ford. That is part of the collective memory. It turns out to be superseded by the reality. Susan you served as director of the national library, and you also gave a eulogy at the president and first ladys funeral. You right at the end of the book that you had some hesitations about being able to be distant enough in doing this project. Richard im glad that you asked that. I never doubted my capacity to be objective. I have written about a lot of people. Critics, whatever they thought of what i was doing have tended to acknowledge that i was quote, objective. My concern was that other people would not accept me as an objective. I remember the great Pulitzer Prize winning photographer who really became a member of the ford family, and knew them a lot better than i did. He said, if you are not critical, you are no credible. The thing about that is that i knew the fords well enough that they would share that view. I brought this up. I had lunch with david mccullough. I described the situation. Other people indoors to writing about lbj or John Beauchamp writing about george w. Bush. I described my predicament. And david said, write what you know. Because that was a license for me to spend the next 10 years discovering all the things i didnt know about or. In any event, it is obviously up to the reader to decide how objective i am. Susan first of all, mentioning david mccullough, his book was probably responsible for a revisiting of harry truman. There is lots of harry truman connections that people made to the ford presidency. Do you anticipate or probably hope that this will do the same . Richard i am not supposed to answer that question. [laughter] have you written a definitive biography . That is what i aspire to. You are supposed to leave that with other people. There are parallels. President s defined themselves and lots of ways. One way they defined themselves is which president s they choose to honor by hanging there were trips in the cabinet room. In the first hour of his presidency, ford goes into the cabinet room and Dwight Eisenhower is in the place. Richard nixons did roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson round out the room. Ford saw to it tt ey were replaced with lincoln who was a lifengero and harry truman. Which surprised a lot of people. They were both children of capitol hill. What i like to call charismatic lee challenged. They were not great orators. Because they had spent so much time on capitol hill, they knew government. Harry truman was the last american president before ford who could get up in front of a room full of reporters and introduce the annual federal budget, because he knew it backwards. In early 1976, to be perfectly blunt, the Campaign Advisors around or had a unique conundrum. How do we demonstrate to doubting voters that this guy is smart . They hit on his hail mary. The federal government was a whole lot bigger than it was in Harry Trumans day. It was a really risky thing to do. Ford said, i would like to do that. So they got like 500 people in the state department auditorium. Ford gets up and says, it will be different this year. He gave a little talk. 56 questions, all of which he was able to answer. He didnt need help from any of the experts behind him. The problem is, it is one reason why he looks better and better in retrospect than he did at the time. He wasnt eloquent. He wasnt witty. He knew government inside and out. Susan so, i want to get one thing out of the way. That is the connection between gerald fords partner, Richard Nixon, his concerns about the special prosecutor putting him on trial, and what the country is going through today with donald trump . Richard it is a fair question. I the hindsight that implicitly blames ford for the wrongdoing of subsequent president s. I want to put that aside for the moment. It is fascinating to me one thing that will surprise people is the relationship between the fords and the clintons. Ford always believed ford justified the nixon pardon, not as an act of mercy, although that is how it was portrayed of the time. And he was a willing participant. It was less about forgiving nixon than trying to forget him. Trying to refocus the countrys attention on all of these problems that ford is just discovering for himself. You have an economy that is headed south, a Major Alliance that is fraying, portugal already has a communist government, on and on. We were still in southeast asia. And ford, it was in his job that he never aspired to come out for which he couldnt prepare, obviously. He finds himself spending 25 of his time day after day on nixons tapes, nixons papers. For whatever it is worth, ford personally believed that if the Legal Process were allowed to proceed thon would be indicted and probably convicted, at least on charges of obstruction of justice. He was one of the things i discovered, he had a counsel who was a best friend, early law partner. And his wife bought made notes. For the first time, you were actually inside the oval office when ford first explains to Phil Buchanan his intent with nixon. It is phils job to go out and find the legal precedent of this. When the clinton lumens key business came along, ford felt in some ways vindicated in the sense that we lost a year. We lost a whole year, 1998, much of 99. The two sides were so entrenched. And remember, for cap up with a proposal ford came up with a proposal. What he called a rebuke. The idea was, he talked about a unique punishment for a unique crime. Or a unique defense. It would be a joint session in congress, president clinton would be summoned. Before they joined session, without saying anything, except accepting a rebuke, then everyone would go back to work. It is a whole long story. The point is, we now know that bill clinton wasnt seriously thinking about spending some of his Political Capital to tackle entitlements. Because he wanted to be a near great president. Think of how that would have changed the political, cultural, economic climate in this country. The debate ever since. It didnt happen because there was no one who was in a position to pull the plug. Ford was in a position to pull the plug. It meant falling on the sword. In all likelihood, it probably cost him the 1976 election. If you want to, in effect, blame ford in a unique set of circumstances, nobody in 1974 was a precedent. Everyone thought watergate was an absolutely historical aberration of Richard Nixon. We dont erect elect our president s for clairvoyance. We elect them because, among other things, they are willing and able to make tough decisions that may have serious negative political consequences for them in the short term. But which hopefully, at some point down the road, historians will reassess more favorably. Susan i want to put a little bit of video. There is so much. We have a clip from his pardoning of ford that he delivered a speech on september 8, 1974. The day his honeymoon ended. Lets listen to how he explained it to the nation. Instead of enjoying equal treatment from any other citizen accused of violating the law, should be cruelly and excessively analyze, either in preserving the presumption of his innocence or in obtaining a speedy determination of his guilt. In order to repay a legal debt to society. During this long period of delay and potential litigation, ugly passions would again be aroused. And our people would again be polarized in their opinions. Susan the reason i pulled that clip is the last part, the people being polarized. Richard he couldnt say, for obvious reasons, but what was behind that, which is directly relevant to what we are going through now. Through back channels, the special prosecutor was with him. He had asked and had been informed that it would be at least a year and quite possibly two years before a nixon trial could take place. That, in turn, underlying the whole rationale. Or couldnt say it. He implies it. The Biggest Surprise to me, i didnt realize until researching the book. Before he died in 1983, Leon Jaworski called at least two people. He never intended to indict nixon at all. He had a staff who very much wanted to, but jaworski believed from the beginning that nixon couldnt get a fair trial because of obviously, the publicity. And one of the reasons, and it is very geordie and. One of the reasons preserved in buchanans diary notes, in the oval office, ford expresses sympathy for the on jaworski. He doesnt want him to bear the entire burden of deciding what to do with Richard Nixon. So he will take that burden onto himself. Susan you said he lived with himself richard in 2001, the kennedy library, remarkable. It gave him the profiles specifically for the nixon parting. Pardon. Kennedy couldnt have been more gracious. He said that kennedy was wrong and ford was right. Anyway. Ford set off. He said, after they encouraged, they stopped asking. Then the last years of his life, they were finally able to put the pardon behind him. Kept asking about the warren commission, and other conspiracies. The pardon question is as if the kennedy had laid it to rest. Susan you begin and end the book about two stories of people he invited to the white house. George mcgovern and jesse. Richard two improbable stories. In 1975, George Mcgovern was invited to a stag dinner. He is frankly, amazed. He says to president ford, Lyndon Johnson never invited me to the white house. He said, Richard Nixon never invited me to the white house and ford said, i know, that is why i asked you to the house belongs to everyone you and in 1972, George Mcgovern voted for gerald ford against his own partys nominee. The book ends, it is bracketed with two acts of hospitality that are meant to be compensatory. Jesse owens, ford knew him. Ohio, michigan, he was at the track meet as a young man where jesse owens set three World Records in one day. He had this real connection of sorts. The 1976 Olympic Games just ended and he was walking the American Team back. He thought it would be really special if he invited jesse owens. The fact is, in 1936 when jesse owens made history at the berlin games in front of hitlers, he came back to the united states. There was a parade in new york. He was not invited to the right the white house. For whatever reason, all the white members of the team were invited and he was not. Ford thought this was a chance, years after the fact to compensate for a shameless oversight. It was an amazing thing because with ford it was personal. He obviously had enormous for owens. It always came back. He couldnt get what you and i would regard as a job commensurate with his accomplishments or the kind of endorsements that today would be routine. And yet, he didnt talk about any of that he just talked about america being this amazing country. He talked about its modest origins. He said, i am shaking hands with the president of the united states. And i said, or introduced himself when he was nominated for the vice presidency as a ford mott not a lincoln. Most people were in agreement. That day, in august 1976, he was at least in coney and because he was appealing to the better angels of our nature. Susan who did you dedicate the book to . Richard billy. In september 22nd, 19 75, he was a 33yearold honorably discharged vietnam that living in San Francisco. Who fought a crowd on a street outside the st. Francis hotel. Just out of curiosity, joined it. It turned out that ford was inside. He had given a speech and was about to come out. The secret service didnt like the looks of the crowd, about 3000 people. This was two weeks after ford have been targeted for assassination in sacramento by squeaky of charles manson. A lot of people didnt want him to go. The secret service said, why dont you go out the back door . And dont shake hands. They have the limousine drawn up. The crowd that billy was in were about 40 feet from the car. And billy noticed he was standing next to a nondescript looking with middleaged woman with a handbag. As ford appeared and waved, he had the presence of mind to observe, she opened her handbag, pulled out a smith wesson, and aimed it at the president. And billy managed to deflect the bullet. You can still see the bullet hole in the hotel wall. Before she could get off a second shot, a couple cops jumped on her. So billy is the hero of the day. President writes him a thank you letter. The day before it arrives, the San Francisco chronicle takes it upon itself to out billy as gay. This is 1975. His family in michigan disowned him. The rest of his life was played pretty bleak. He died at the age of 47 in 1989 they decided he had been dead for a couple weeks when they found his remains. The walls of his apartment were literally papered with the newspapers from that day, and the place of honor was the frame letter from gerald ford. And knowing the fords. He became the First American president to sign a gayrights petition. He told friends several years before he died in 2006 that samesex marriage was coming, and they should get used to it. And he was certainly comfortable with the idea. It is interesting, when tom wrote his book, based on conversations i had with ford as the next president , he was really onto something. He said after 1980 is one fords political career ended. He was still a political candidate up to 1980, and then he withdrew. He said after 1980, ford was liberated. It was like he didnt care what he said. I think he was undoubtedly an influence as well. He was much more prochoice than he had ever been in the white house. That extended to a number of issues. Increasingly, he and misses ford felt like they were marooned. The Republican Party that they know, you would call it centerright, moderate, middleoftheroad. That was increasingly in the rearview mirror. In people say, what do you think about today . Again, it is a little bit unanswerable. We do have a good clue. In 1980, he sat down to do an interview with a reporter, neil mcneil of time magazine. Great reporter, someone he trusted. He asked him a really interesting question, which is, what is the single most disqualifying attribute in a president . And ford thought, he said, arrogance. Not that the American People whatever elect an arrogant president , but i am talking, vicious arrogance if they did, then god help the country. Susan from his early years, there was one person that i had never heard of before, and it sent me to the internet. You credit this woman with responsible for the gerald ford transformation. Richard her terminology. The words jerry brown and supermodel do not seem to long in the same sentence. Gerald ford. Pb brown for perfect body brown was a knockout. And a really smart, cosmopolitan. She took the ac, they went to broadway shows, she introduced him to skiing. A whole lot of things. Interview that he did that has not been available until now, he talked about she was quite a gal and, thank god i didnt marry her. She would go on to have three husbands. The wonderful sequel to all of this is jim gannon, who did an earlier book about ford and watergate, told me the story. He didnt use it, but figured someday i would. He was working on his book in the president said, you want to talk to phyllis. He went to reno. Where she lived. And got roses on the way. Knocked on the door and said, president ford wanted you to have these. She said, no he didnt, he never gave me flowers. They established immediate trusting relationship. At the end of the day, she said to jim, would you mind taking a message to terry . She said, would you tell him, i still think about him, i still dream about him, i still love him. And he thought, gosh, and i have to repeat that to the president. He did. There was this pause. Ford was thinking. He said, she was such a great gal, but i have had such a wonderful marriage. Two complements in the same sentence. Phyllis brown was a huge influence. It gets back to this yale and association with the university of michigan which is understandable. He loved the place. But yale had a huge impact. New york. At the very same time that America First is releasing its isolationist manifesto, the same day, where is jerry ford . Philadelphia with thousands of other young republicans screaming, we want wilkie. Anything but an isolationist. I also discovered, he was actually trying to pull strings to get into the navy. So, go figure. It is just a small example of how many more layers there are. Susan lets talk about the women that he did marry, betty. There is a quote from her soon to be sisterinlaw that says, jerrys mistress will be his work. How did that play out in the ford familys life . Richard first of all, she was a divorce. She said, i was young and stupid and realize she made a mistake. She really wasnt looking to get married anytime soon. She knew jerry ford, he was a local football hero. Did five years older than her. He was very persistent. After he came back from world war ii and opened a law firm was the most eligible bachelor in town, had on average, a date a week. But, that he was someone he was instantly attracted to. He talked to her about going out for a drink, and that led to his relationship. Early 1948, he says he wants to marry her. But he cant set a date and he cant tell her why. It turns out, he wants to run for congress against a republican incumbent entrenched isolationist and he wants to take him by surprise. Ok. Other wedding rehearsal dinner, he showed up for the appetizer and dessert. In between, he was gone campaigning. In many ways, that is a preview of coming attractions. I dont think he had any idea of the parallel. Her father have been a traveling salesman. Her first husband was, too. Arguably, her second husband was, too. Ford would spend up to 200 nights a year on the road. Campaigning not for himself but for other candidates in the hope of attaining his real lifelong ambition, which was to be speaker of the house. And the burden of all of that really fell on her. Susan we know that she struggled with addiction problems later and the two of them together forming the betty ford clinic. Do you see a connection between his lifestyle and her being richard i think he felt a measure of guilt. Particularly in the earlier years. She was fine in the white house. As a young woman, she wanted to be a Martha Graham dancer. So, she had, her staff refer to her as having performance teams. Performers jeans. She would take kids to Football Games and the emergency room and the hospital, and he was out on the road. There are several harrowing scenes in the book, but one of them, susan, must have been 10 or 11 years old, was alone at the house, her father is out, and i think it was a sunday afternoon. The housekeeper, a woman named clara, and mrs. Ford, she had a nervous breakdown. That must have been terrifying. But clara had the president in mind and they got a hold of him. It didnt prevent him from going out on the road. I think in later years, he did feel a measure of guilt i think he tried to make it up to her. There were two sets of issues. One was, she had told her the doctors have put her in traction for close to a month without success. And then they took the shortcut, started prescribing pills. The pills by themselves wouldnt have been an issue, but with alcohol, that was a serious problem so, after ty leave the white house, she feels great. She finally got her husband back. They moved to the desert in california. The kids are grown up by now and they are gone. And he is back on the road. She is alone and that is when the drinking became lifethreatening. It led to the intervention that is described in the book. And the extraordinary final chapter in their lives together. The Betty Ford Center he said, in later years, that when the history books were written, her contributions would outweigh his own he really believed that. The Betty Ford Center would have an alumni event, and he would always say, she is the president , i am just former president. You would find him at the grill, barbecuing hotdogs. That was his job. He was pretty comfortable. She gotheedal of freedom, a decade before he did it he was so proud of her. It is a really interesting you could do a bug just based on jerry and betty. There is enough drama there. But that is hopefully incorporated in this. Susan we have about 25 minutes left. You explain he took on an incumbent congressman the first time around. He took on the republican leader. What do we learn about him . Richard ford didnt mind all of that. The thing that bothered him and he was verbal about it, people thought he was just a republican partisan. He entered politics as an insurgent. He and his father taking on a corrupt republican machine that dominated not only grand rapids that at one point, the state of michigan. In 1948, he took on the idea he had been an isolationist himself before the war. The war transformed his attitude just as it did the hometown hero, who was his mentor he came out of the war, a committed internationalist. Wnt simply his only ambition to be in congress, but it was a primary idea. That insurgent gene if you will never went away. In 1965 after the goldwater debacle, it wasnt hallies fault, they needed someone to blame. They needed to start over, they needed to change it plus, on television, it was what is called the avenue and charlie show. Just craggy features totally dominated. And charlie, who drank everyone drank back then. That is one thing you discovered when you mentally inhabit the 60s and 70s, everyone drank. Charlie drank more than most. Ford was a lot younger, he was middleoftheroad, slightly centerright. He took on halleck and beat him, narrowly. Bob dole delivered four votes from the kansas delegation. Then he said about set about transforming the Republican Party. He went out with 2 million and hired policy experts. He had a different philosophy about being in the minority. And bob used to say, the job of the opposition is to oppose. Fords idea was, we have a better idea. And so, he put together a think tank. First one serving the republican minority, to come up with Republican Solutions on civil rights and education and fighting poverty. They didnt have the votes. But, at least they had a program of their own. And, the other thing that is really unnoticed, and i didnt realize until doing the book, ford has his own ideas about a southern Republican Party. This is that critical moment when the old south, the democratic south, is about to become a solid republican south over a period of several years. The question was, what kind of south, what kind of Republican Party would it be . With civil rights being clearly the dividing line. Fords idea was an eisenhower party. Water it on civil rights, opposed to Big Government in washington and all of that. But more eisenhower and goldwater. And while lincoln the other thing was, for years, there was an unofficial coalition. You have the southern democrats and republicans that would form a coalition. Ford wanted to transform that. He wanted to get rid of the conservative southern democrats and replace them with republicans. Of his liking. He is a much more transnational figure. One factoid, for better or worse, every time you see the state of the Union Address owned by the opposition partys bonds, that was fords idea. The first one in the mid1960s. And dirksen thought it was a terrible idea until he saw how much applause forgot. He changed his mind. Susan he called the vice presidency the worst job he ever had. Why . Richard under the best of circumstances, that is a very difficult job. Think of men and women of both parties who have been Vice President who want to be president. The difficulty they have in establishing your independence. The job doesnt wor way. In his case, it was the worst of tiecause basically, he took that job believing Richard Nixon. He thought that nixon was innocent and the people around nixon and people at the campaign who were responsible for watergate. It is a very nuanced evolution. One reason why this book is 700 pages. Over those eight months, ford gradually came to the conclusion that he was not being told the truth. That nixon was probably more involved, certainly in a coverup. And he was walking a tight rope. In addition, everywhere he went, i introduced him in susan i saw that, the next president. Richard one of many people. I am sure he didnt much care for that interaction. But everywhere he went, he had to defend nixon. He had to do that in such a way that he didnt completely destroy his own credibility or his independence. Because, down the road, even though he couldnt admit it, in the back of his hand, he had to be aware of the fact that events could transpire that he would be replacing nixon. This is ford famously said after the eastern monarchal, most people have an election in three months. We had 24 hours. He could not publicly or privately admithe might be president. I still find it astonishing. They may have been the only family in america in the summer of 19 whose dinnertable conversations never revolved around the possibility that they might be a new president , any day now. Because ford wouldnt allow it. Susan lets bring it to 1974, the famous address to the nation that he gave in his inaugural from the white house. I wanted to talk to you about where this clip came from. Hello, americans. Our Long National nightmare is over. Our constitution works. Our Great Republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here, the people rule. Susan you had been a speechwriter, where did the phrase are Long National nightmares come from . Richard after all these years, you think there would be no doubt. It certainly all has been attributed to bob, the chief officer of that little eight minute inaugural address. But, i found an interview with another speechwriter named elton friedman want not to be confused with the economist, who named that he was responsible for the phrase. Who knows. The irony about the whole phrase, whoever wrote it, is, for didnt want to use it. Ford didnt want to use it. He was kicking a man when he was down. Dont you think that is a little harsh . And hartman made the case, in effect, you dont have a say in it. People need to hear this. They need to hear it from you. The final surprise is that nightmare was far from over. Which in turn, leads into the whole pardon and much more. Here we ar 50 years later, still debating it. Susan e brought rumsfeld to the white house. He would write, no one was more influential in hate and he. How did he help him . Richard he was a child of congress. He thought like a congressman and his ideas of leadership are based on capitol hill. Even his ideas of what a conservative and a liberal on capitol hill, persuasion entails two or three people behind closed doors, broken sentences. You dont have to be eloquent. It is an entirely different mindset. And set of job qualifications when you become an executive. Rumsfeld understood that. He understood that instinctively even though he had been on capitol hill. I argue, whenever you think of rumsfeld, he was fords teacher more than anyone else, the first few months, about the difference between congressional leadership and executive leadership. That said, rumsfeld was also to the right of ford. He thought Nelson Rockefeller was a wrong choice. He thought that ford should have cleaned house. Bill simon, secretary of treasury, second day of fords presidency says, you want to get rid of all of us. Fords response was, nobody leaves the plane without a parachute. Ford being ford, he looked around and saw all of these white house people who had nothing to do with watergate. Who were very capable and competent people. Who should not be blamed. It raises a really interesting question that you dont hear very often about the american presidency. Can a president be too nice . I think hartman, rumsfeld, Dwight Eisenhower, everyone thinks about the smile. And the smile was real. He also had Sherman Adams as his chief of staff to do the heavy lifting and be the bad guy. In effect, the role of that holderman performed for nixon. Ford saw the best in everyone. There are people who wondered why he cap hartman on. Hartman was a divisive figure, he drank. Rinse saw the worst in people. Hartman completed ford as a politician. He was also someone, the only one, he was someone who could tell the president when he was full of it. That is an invaluable role and tells you a lot about ford that he valued having people around him who could speak at frankly. Susan 1976 primary challenge, was he ready . Richard i dont think so. The great lou cannon who covered both of them said ford could never get his head, and he wasnt sufficiently conservative to be the Republican Party nominee in 1976. The party was changing all around him. Ford kept reading in the newspapers that he was the most conservative resident since calvin coolidge. He thought, very much shaped by his experience, that he was the most electable. He was the most conservative, electable republican in 1976. He couldnt see the reagan phenomenon, it wounded him. And it turned out to be an incredibly better battle on the likes of the eisenhower taft. A defining moment. I would argue that 1976 put the Republican Party on a course from which it has really never deviated. Susan in 1980 there was the consideration of him joining the ticket. Richard whenever people say, let reagan be reagan, i wonder who they are talking about. In 1976, he was willing to put dix like her as his running mate. While four years later it was willing to put gerald ford as his running mate. It tells you a lot about his pragmatism. And big tent republicanism, that he was willing to let bygones be bygones. He was interested in winning. He went personal, he went to see ford a couple weeks before the convention. Ford was taken aback, suggested that to george h w bush. The whole story that was told here in detail. It gets to this mysterious quality about ford. At the end of the week, ford gets on a plane that is going to take him back to yale. And he says, pretty good convention. I gave a good speech, i got george bush as Vice President. I think that there was a little bit of payback for 1976, that ford let this thing go on all week to the point where in the end, reagan had almost no choice but to go to his second choice, who was george h w bush. Susan five minutes left. You talked about the many good works that the ford as a coupled it in their retirement years. At the same time, he joined 10 corporate boards. How did he square that away . Richard it really bothered him. He talked to a number of people who were on boards with him. He was never a rainmaker. He didnt do that. It is interesting. He wouldnt join a board until 1980. That was when his political career came to an end. He left the white house with almost no money. We talked about feelings of guilt. I think he was determined to make up for all that lost time and make sure his wife and his children would be taken care of. He also people forget. One of the first things he was told, what brought him and jimmy carter together, they said, you know you have to raise 20 million to build a library, nobody told him that. Most of his speaking fees went to the Ford Foundation to help build the ford library and the museum. It is interesting when you stop to think about the boards. I dont defend it, i think you can argue it both ways. There was a lot of criticism of him cashing in on the presidency. In many ways, it is an extension of the kind of free enterprise, business oriented, Country Club Republican that he had been throughout his career. And he brought we talked to the people on some of the boards. One example. He was on a board and kuwait bought this oil company. They were meeting with the oil minister who said they were having monthly meetings. The minister said, we are going to cut it to rc times per year, and increase your speed from 25 to 100,000. Ford interrupts and says, that is awfully generous, but since we are doing fewer meetings, i think we will just keep it at 25,000. So, he died with 10 to 15 million. The thing he was proudest of was, the house they built and the ski chalet they built. Neither one had a mortgage. Susan we have a 32 second clip of president clinton giving him the medal of freedom. Studying, trustworthy. Darrell ford ended a Long National nightmare. He also ended a long war. And he signed the treaty on human rights. That sent a signal to hope to people throughout the world. When he left the white house after 895 days, america was stronger, calmer, and more selfconfident. America was, in other words, more like president ford himself. Susan why did you title your biography of him, an ordinary man . Richard it is ironic. The subtitle is equally as important. The fact that there are surprising things about, we think of him as an ordinary man. Thats how he referred to himself. It turns out, his wife was anything but ordinary. His presidency was anything but ordinary. The reader, in the end, can make up their own mind. A little bit of irony on the front cover would be appropriate. Susan you knew him very well when you started this project. Did you know him any better by the time you were done . Richard so many times, this is 10 years of slogging through archives. Over and over, every day, i think, why didnt i ask him this or this . There are things that i dont know and will never know that are in the book and i dont know. I dont think he knew that hoover had blackballed him. He had a stepgrandfather, and i dont know even now whether he knew all the details of that relationship. Someone who seems to us like an open book turns out, by the end of the book, to be i think, much more interesting. Much more complicated. Far from the last word on gerald ford. Susan Richard Norton smith thank you for the hour. Richard thank you. All q a programs are available on a website or as a podcast