Transcripts For CSPAN After 20240704

Oscar munoz defined his company. He is interviewed by a travel reporter. After words is a weekly Interview Program with the relevant guesthouse interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. The book through with you right. I guess well start off kind of at the top. Why write book and why publish it . What kind of led you to you to this moment . What thanks. Ag thanks for having me. You know, ive always over the course of my journey, i always said that i would never write a book. I think what changed is i think there was a lot of a little bit of downtime, certainly as we battled through e cares act and recove, but also a lot of about the things that were happening in america. You know, we a lot of you got a lot of social issues on at the same time where business was crumbling. And so it was a it was a good time to reflect on all of these things. And so began to work on a couple of chapters, ran them by a couple of noted authors, particularly the one that is on my forward to see what it sounded like and i got some good support. So i kept going. And the publishing now is a function of just time and space. Is the publishing world as that takes. You know, it takes a long time to do these things, but its also, i think, hitting at a good time because while the book, as you know, certainly about the Airline Industry, united in particular, i think also a broader message that i hope to convey. I hope people will get out of it kind of a nuanced message towards stability, personal discourse facts, and then some leadership lessons throughout, along with a little bit of my heritage and upbringing that ive never really had a chance to share before. So it was a its been a wonderful journey. Im glad its over. And and im always glad to talk about it. So thank you for having me again . Yeah, definitely. And again, you for being here. And in that introduction just gave you hit on a lot of the topics that im hoping to talk to you about today so really looking forward to this conversation before we actually get into the book, some of the specifics there, i wanted to ask you about some recent news the. Dot recently announced a new notice of proposed rulemaking that would require airlines to compensate passengers for delays or cancel actions that are in the airlines control because. Its so recent. I just kind of wanted to right there. What do you think about as a former airline ceo . You know, im in d. C. Today and ive heard the same news that you have and ive known that its been out there and its been out for some time. And so i think the first thing i would say is, as a customer, are all of the people that listen, theres we get it, we get the pain that people feel when theyre delayed, delayed significantly. And while we as Airline Industry professionals have lots of things that we are constantly working on to make your journey not only safe, but certainly on time. There are broader at play, as they always are, that are not necessarily under our control. So you can you can pretty much rest assured that theres not an airline out there thats looking to have delays that lasts, that time to be sitting on a tarmac to be causing you the pain that that does they theres no one really wanting to theres no benefit theres no reward other than a sharp a sharp stick right in your eye kind of thing with the one with that. So we feel the same pain. I think the issue is as a broader one. And ive spoken a lot this over the course of my tenure as the leader and i still talk about it. I think we need to modernize some of the infrastructure that runs the airspace and that is air Traffic Control systems. The air Traffic Control we have in america is, in my opinion, not only outdated and possibly obsolete, its still safe but you have to really slow down in the air to make sure that it indeed is safe, which the right thing to do. I think there, are many, many countries outside of the us have modernized their systems and. It is one that i think needs to be done in america now. It not easy to do. Its difficult. There probably requires multiple administrations from a federal level to it to support it or in way it needs to be privatized. But it a key factor in broader infrastructure. And as im in america, in addition to obviously the land infrastructure and our roads and bridges. Yeah, you know, that actually is something that you mentioned in the book. You talk about on your first day as ceo, you walked into the United Headquarters to news reports of a major i. T. Meltdown at the airline. So obviously these i. T that you just talked about modernizing the infra, that sort of thing has been going on for a long time. Why do you think this continues to be a problem and kind . How does this actually get addressed well for, from the airline perspective, i mean . You mentioned a great point in my day and our cio. Oh, they are now our chief customer officer and she has emerged wonderfully. We started the migration to the cloud way back then. It is time consuming, it cost money and it requires a lot of focus and effort and. And that journey had to be, you know, had to begin that early. I think the recent issues that youve seen, particularly over the holidays, was, as we now know, sort of a lack of investment in that and that infrastructure. Why . Its hard, its costly. It takes money. And again, back to the Traffic Control aspect of that again. And its not going to be done in a four year period. Its probably going to take maybe three times as that. And its to require the best and brightest in america that america has to offer with regards to developing that and and again, a privatized might work. The government certainly could try to do this. But again, its all ive got. Its all about its all about focus and its all about funding everything that you do. And as Airline Professionals and in speaking for the industry, if i could, i n tell you that by and large everybody makes every effort, theres lot of money being spent to make this make make all of these advancements happy make all these investments. Right investments that need to be done for the industry sure. So turning a little bit more officially to the book now in the introduction, you talk about hearing complain that they kind of have a negative view of air travel as you were doing that tour throughout uniteds network. Why do you think people have a pretty still i would say even coming out of the pandemic still a pretty negative view of air travel generally and how can that be addressed, you know, perception reality. So first of all, as as as a person that provides that service to you, it is incumbent upon us to make better regardless. Thats just you. A customer is is right are many many parts of the time maybe not all the fan are always there. And so i think i think why people are because theyre missing something thats important. One of the first big things we rolled out at united was this concept of of understanding through a shared and a shared vision across the of why we did what. We did, of course, you know, we fly aircraft. We get people there from point a to point b, but its deeper than that, right . Its more about understanding that. Each Single Person and each are each single seat is traveling for something really important to them. And having our front folks, these are folks these are you know, these are salt of the earth work really and hard hours to to bring the service. You know if if you commoditize if you if you put too many parameters and rules, it becomes just a job. It isnt the friendly skies. And our and our tagline is important that. When you fly, you feel that and when you put too much structure and structure and rules, it becomes just any other thing. And so the point to make sure that your employees are really engaged in process of taking care of other of taking care of all the services we provide. And so you its it doesnt always work. There are many things that happen that are out of control and so i could go down a long litany, long list of things from air traffic to whether i always cared that Mother Nature is not in for all of you that understand the term role. If its not someone that that is employed by us. And so there are many issues that have to be worked and dealt with. And you have really proud professionals that make that happen. And so and so i think for me the the initial wave of input was knowing some of that but trying to hear it directly as an part of leadership where if you actually someone the question and you listen to them and listen to them intently and then and then lead after youve listen and learn to solve the things are most important. What we learned at was the fact that while coffee and our schedule and, our aircraft and all of those things were, a little bit of an issue by and large, most pointed thing was that we had lost the trust of our own employees. They just didnt want to do things that we wanted to do. And i thats one of the critical components of doing that, listening and learning thing that i speak about. Yeah. And sticking on this network tour for a second, you said at the top of last response that perception is everything. And i think that the average traveler probably has a perception of the ceo of an airline is being possibly a little out of touch with many of the people who fly every day. Ive always wanted ask an airline ceo this so thank you for bearing with me. Did you fly economy when you did that tour . Mostly, i think its a combination of that. You know, over the it depends on the depends on where you going. We at the time still had a lot of these small 50 seater aircraft which do not have a first class. And yes, lot of the time, especially late or, early in the morning, i would fly upfront. And so it was a combination of things. Its you know, its traveling around is is hard and travel difficult for a lot of people. But when you live in the business and these people that are providing service are yours, it is wonderful because i would frankly sit and mostly in an aisle seat so i can get up and talk to the Flight Attendants, i can get up and talk to customers. So i can kind of roam around the plane safely, obviously, when were doing that. So it was important me not only to fly and talk to folks, but to do it without a large of people with me. So the airplane is one thing, but when you hit the airport and, its terminals and you go into every deep byzantine corner and of of a great airport. I mean its fascinating to see what you see behind the rest the rest areas where people eat where people sleep and rest and thats when you get people at their most human level. And for me it was important to have that level of connection. So how i travel and how i got there was important. It was more. But when land and the level of engagement that you have because you know were a 24 by seven operation so you want to talk to our tech ops, our maintenance folks, they only come in at night and obviously aircraft fly during the day mostly and get repaired needed modifications over the course of the evening. So i think the combination your question was, am i, i am i with the people by flying . Not all the time. Was i a voice, the people and listening to them by level of engagement that i did in their workplace at their hours, the things i would definitely say i was very much focused on that piece more than anything. Sure. Thank you. And you also say in the book at one point that the flying is not differentiated enough across airlines. How does that going addressed . What does differentiation look like in an industry with such thin margins . Well, exactly right. And its so hard to do that. And its the Human Element for sure. You know, we we have lost all of that. The friendly skies had become anything. And the thing that needed to recover first was certainly that. And i think i think we had a lot of success in getting our people behind us. And then on that platform, being able to do a lot of the strategic things. So to your point on differentiation, i think what youre seeing at united anyway, and im very proud of this legacy and the work thats being we are differentiating by our efforts on sustainability not in a political way but on a level of economics that makes sense for the business and also doing the right thing for the planet alongside of that. I think were differentiating by the places that we fly you see in the united more than any other airline in the world. Open up the world with so much flying to so many interesting rate areas and hitting at a time americans do want to travel despite. The economic impact, the views and concern. And people still want to travel in a lot of places and were taking quite a bit of advantage of that. And then of course, you differentiate yourself by how you individually are treated by another human when you travel us. And that is the most difficult part. Theres no way to oversee that or to directly sort of gauge how friendly you were off friendly. You werent. And that comes from engaging the the the heart and the mind of your employees. Theyre with you. They understand why important to be great with customers friendly and to provide good service that people will come back so its all those factors plus you know brand new aircraft with great new things. All of those tngs can be met but cant be met necessarily is the Human Element. And think thats a big differentiating point that has helped united, you know, regain and its status as one of the major top airlines in the world. Yeah. Lets talk a little more about that, actually. You wrote in the book that you did whats right and whats wrong or whats good and whats not good list is you were kind of starting your tenure as ceo. And the first thing that you put at the top of whats right list was uniteds people. From my perspective as an Airline Reporter that honestly could come off as a little cliche. Airlines love to tout people, but what does actually set uniteds people apart . And when you came in, there was very low morale among employees. So how were you to see through that low morale to . What kind of was under the surface that your team and what they could become . Yeah. So put my comment that you noted a little bit of context if i could. I talk about my first travel. I am traveling no one knows that im going to what become the ceo its you know its to be announced the following day so im traveling and of course i have one of those hellacious flights. Its a small 50 seater. Its united express. United. I were laid would we have issues mechanical . I mean, its just its a litany of things that that were going wrong that day. The way i describe is over the course of the that my sitting there im writing of these things down why dont we do this . Why we just why cant we communicate to our employer, to our customers why things are being delayed. So im writing all this stuff as to kind of a whats wrong column. But throughout all of that, what i observed in this small plane with human a woman that that was i was the Flight Attendant watching her sue soothe calm provide a level of humanity and kindness to everyone that was concerned connections and delays even if she didnt the answer and thats what prompted me to say what you might someone you might term as cliche is the fact that you know its like its not whats whats wrong but its you know what is right and that was the first thing i put it right. And so that me the impetus to your question to okay i just saw if i had 50,000 more people like every day doing that sort of thing. I think the perception of our service and our value, despite a lot of things, would more positive. And so as i asked her a couple of she didnt know who i was. She was very nice to answer the things she knew, things she didnt, and that were, to me sort of began to get the inkling that it would be important for me to. Go out and listen to all of those. All in all, the people like her and. Thats what prompted me to go out there and. Its also what gave me a lot of the of what became my real First Initiative was to regain the trust of our employees first before we could do anything else. Yeah, that makes sense, but do want to kind of go back to another of the question, which was that low morale you came into . And again, how did see through the low morale and kind of, what what were the steps that you took to boost that morale . So, you know, i have a background and that i have learned over my experience. Its my part of my heritage as a latino so that family is everything. I mean, we use the term familia and and it just it really it really envelops a sort of emotional connection with folks. So ive always been lucky enough through my formative years to have been the, you know, the the. Need for connection with other and to really, truly listen and also to sense theres some things that you cant get over zoom or a camera or from a pulpit. Youre making speeches to large audiences. And that is that Human Connection when somebody hold your hand just a little longer, looks in your eye with a sense of, potentially without being dramatic a little despair. And when i first made my travels around, our hubs, i could feel a little bit of that emotion, just a you know, a slightly longer handshake a little tugging on the coat. And that was that was my sense that there was something wasnt. Now, this is a time when people are taking pictures. Everybodys smiling and everybodys happy to have a new leader. But at the same time, i could send something so thats thats what i knew there was something going on and then i think first my first big news article with journal where they asked me the question is, so in your short time, what have you seen . I said, i find the fact that our Employee Base is disillusioned, disengaged and disenfranchized, and im embarrassed to say that as a former board member, we didnt see that. And so i was very, very focused and transparent with what i was seeing. So thats what i saw that the fixing part, of course takes time. But my first instinct was to go and listen and learn from all of them, bring them in as part of the solution. Tell me what bulk and tell me what you needs to be fixed. And of course i got thousands and thousands of of levels of input from so many people over the course of my travels which can get a little confusing. And so what what. That initiative was, im traveling back to chicago and i have so much data and information from so many sources and in a turnaround, what you start first is really key to potential success of the turnaround, because theres many things to fix, right . And i had many things to fix. And i had learned even more in my travels. But i had accomplished a couple of things. I had a lot of humans in a conversati session where they felt are be getting to feel as part of solution or that they were at least being included and what might be done always clear was to make sure that its like not everything you tell me is what were going to do, because thats not the case. But everythings going to get put into hopper. And from that, were going to glean something. So that was the bright sort of strategic idea from a real, you know, from a real practical perspective. I was getting in inundated with information and data and was beginning to worry about, can you promise everyone that youre going to come back from this trip and have, you know, the thing youre going to do or suggest . And i was worried. And and that fateful trip from denver to chicago with one of our clients, amy sue, is is her name. I went up to just say to her and to ask my question, like i was just asking things like, hey, you know, hows it going or anything you share what it wasnt and werent deeply questions and again similar to the the feeling and sense that i had when i was traveling earlier with the holding a handshake longer etc. She she seemed quite emotional. Her face was just looking to burst with with something, but also at the same time was a place where its like, im not going to waste my breath youre one of many. I think weve had five or six. I forget how many before me in the last decade. So you can imagine a person that works every who has all these different leaders coming and going like, i dont want to waste my time with this. And so i gently touched arm and said, well, listen, im sitting over here. You want anything . And its kind of when pulled her hand back and in a very emotional or a tearful way, said oscar, im just tired of always having to say im sorry. And for me, as reflected on it very quickly, it was magic. Moment is a seminal moment, the sense that god imagined going to work day for many years always, having to apologize. Hey, im sorry. Coffees not well. Im sorry youre late. Im sorry. Cant do this. And you have zero to do with any of those policies or decision. And its how we got folks disillusioned disengaged and disenfranchized just over. They just grow weary of that. And i had been i was beginning to have a sense that i think the first thing is to regain the trust of our employees. Now i would have to go socialize this with the world knowing there would be tons, tons of incoming fire. Wait a second. You know, you got to do stuff for your employees. What about your customers . What about your investors . And theres a many constituents in this. So i had to do a lot of socializing in order to do that. But things would get in the way. Things like my health instance. Sure. And you know, its actually i didnt want to go too without turning to that because you dedicate a lot of time in the book to talking about your health. And i really want give you a minute to talk about that. What is message, especially on heart health . Its simple. It is the largest its the single largest killer in america by far. By far, i mean more than half the deaths in america. So cancer, all those awful diseases, unfortunately, the Heart Disease is the main killer. Why the symptoms of a heart attack are many and varied it is not a oh my god, its the big one. And you hold your chest and theres just so many different flows. His blood gets blocked, either heading up, up north or south of the heart. And it can have so many different a, b dont always know that those symptoms are serious cause you just feel a little off or a little weird. And a lot of us in particular will tend to, you know, sit down, lay down, jump in the shower, or just sort of blow it off. And unfortunately, with with know the blockage of blood to your external through extremities and your vital organs that is often a decision. So if you do lay down you may not you know, you may not wake up from that. And so thats i think the message, the psa if you will and i got this from a real close of mine who is a cardiologist who one day said, you know, if you ever feel weird, call 911 and all the worst you can be is a little embarrassed that you had indigestion gene or something, which sense to a degree. So i offer that advice. And secondly, what he added, which was perfect but perfectly to my survival, he says. And when you call 911 immediately, tell them where you are, which like duh. Right . It makes sense. But then he added a very dramatic piece like immediately tell them where you are because you may not make it past the phone call. And i remember one night where i was and what i heard him say that i remember thinking, okay, thats a little dramatic. But you know what . Fast forward a couple of years, just come in from iran. Im a turned vegan. I know im a good weekend athlete. Im not overly necessarily, but i hear my phone buzzes across the room and as i go to get it, i feel my legs of weak and then i kind of crumble my knees and i felt a little clammy and immediate thought was that comet okay, that feels weird. So i immediately crawled to the landline. Some of you listening and watching me remember what is and called 911 and immediately told them what was because i was on the 50th floor of a chicago high rise, the gps on my cell phone might have taken a little too long to come to get me. So i crawled back to the front door, let the emt in and within 37 minutes, i was on life support life support me in a heart lung, artificial lung machine and on a medically induced coma. And that i have an extra 5 minutes or 20 minutes, i dont know. But i am thankful that i was able to get into that situation as quickly as i could. Yeah and you wrote in the book that kind of in those early hours you really needed to keep it under wraps from the public and from of the people at united. What did everyone think was going on that day . You missed a lot of important meetings, coincidentally. Well, on a on a on a amusing sidebar, theres the story goes from my doctors and nurses that were there when i when they received me. I dont remember much of this i was relatively coherent and providing information about, you know, numbers and information for people to contact. And but i also kept muttering, they tell something under my breath and that that something was i dont time for this. I dont have time for this. I had a big all the Union Leaders were coming in. I was interviewing a cfo candidate. I mean, again, ive been on the road listening. Had all those things started to work through. And so it was a it was a busy and because of of medical privacy, i was i was, you know, i was, i went into the hospital under an assumed name to sort of hide from the media because the media was everywhere as soon as they i think it got leaked over the course of the day and the began to fly and, you know, our corporate folks did know or were not aware of what was happening because my family was still incoming. I was obviously in a coma by this time. So there was a lot moving parts to that. And so, you know, i talk a lot about that in the book of sort of the drama that surrounded first day because i disappeared and you know what happens when your ceo just doesnt show up and so there was a lot of scramble to get that. But you know, quickly, the company into a mode they learned little bit more about my situation and then we did all the right things. Announce an interim ceo as required. But i was certainly dramatic moments in those early days. Yeah and you also talked the book about your relationship with one of the Flight Attendants fernando who you met in the hospital. Can you just talk a little more about what that relationship meant . You you know, a message to everyone. We all know someone thats been afflicted, a disease or an illness they may be in the hospital. They may be at home. And so many of us are so wellintentioned. You know how i should write or i should send something to mary or her family. And then were like, say, oh, you know, we dont want to bother them. And all that. Dont do that. If somebody means something to you, send them a note, it can be a text, it can be a scribble. Doesnt have to be anything as someone that was afflicted and seeing those long nights, lonely, depressing nights in a hospital, every word every message, every small, however, was received was incredibly, incredibly supportive of my health and and increasingly my mental my my health. And so, you know, the im sorry, i part of the question. Oh, no. Yeah. Was asking you about your relationship with fernando, Flight Attendant, who you met in the hospital to that end, as i was getting slightly better and and had stabilized, had come out of my coma and was in the hospital and, i had learned that i would require a transplant and i was fighting that of course. But realizing that i had to do that, i had couple of visitors that had had heart transplants to come in just to say and it was i remember person in particular, his name is jim, who came in and he looks being happy and fit and live and im like, i hate you. I want be like you. But again if a transplant is going to do that for me, lets do that so that that you know, that physical of connection with somebody that thats been through was really important for me to see because its daunting, you know, like youre going to take my heart out and put another one in. Its like, thats not a good plan in my mind. And so in the world of sort of, you know, paying it forward to use a term i learned the course of my stay at the hospital that was another individual in an earlier of Heart Disease that that was going it had a massive heart attack and kind of in similar condition and would be waiting for a transplant as well. Who happened to be a Flight Attendant at united, which just happened to be a fellow latino. And when came in and kind of no, didnt want to bother me and say, hey, theres another. And as soon as i heard the fact that he was a United Family member was like, lets go, come on, lets get out, lets get over there. And it was a it was, you know, again, the two latinos facing the same the same issues, if you will, coming together in a hospital room with all the the emotion and drama they said, i remember them saying its like, oh, just, you know, were going to go and we spent 5 minutes. And i remember laughing like. Its only going to take 5 minutes. This is going to be a much longer conversation. And sure enough, as soon as i in fernando was there with his close friend and his partner and the emotion that erupted just from seeing each other was amazing. And and i and think it helped him on the sad end to that conversation, as you know from reading zach is that he never got his heart and and he waited and waited again which makes again story so incredibly blessed and that a fact that i did wait only for a couple of weeks and only to find out about my heart on actual birthday. On the morning of my birthday so the the blessings and fortune that i have are and varied and you asked earlier why wrote the book. I think part of it is just to let a lot of that gratitude out because i feel it every day. Yeah. And you wrote also in the that uniteds people not just fernando, not just their immediate kind of core of executives, but the team in general was as responsible as as anyone else for your recovery. Thats you said in the book. Can you talk more about role that the entire united team that the entire company in your recovery. Well, you know i mentioned it briefly with the outpouring of affection and the and everything that was sent that just confirm what i had learned in my listening tour, that the people of united were more like family and had to embrace me, not as an outsider, but as someone that they could to lead them out of, you know, the wandering nomad that we were in this desert and so i think that their level of engagement and support on just this, but many other occurrences over the course my tenure there, theyre there. I do not take care of you. I do not fly you. I do not serve you meals. I dont i dont im not im not, you know, taking care of your bag, all of those things. They are. And they do it in a wonderful level of of professionalism and pride. It was important for me to say that in the book a lot. And its its probably a really long love letter to united employees. But my hope is that when people it theyll understand what happens, the scenes understand the people actually do that work every day and such difficult aspects. And i talk a lot about of this where, you know, employees to work on time because you know their skills to be there on time many of them dont know when theyre going home because we dont know what the situations are going to be and were so focused on getting you where you need to be that people will work very long hours, certainly uncertain hours, and they cant tell their family that be home at x amount of time because they can never really guarantee it and. So i think the the employee my, my, my, i say, you know, at the end of the book that and i came to change united but at the end united and its people changed me as i really to appreciate all that they do and how well they do it. Yeah. And sticking on the question of your recovery for a second, why do you think uniteds people were so invested in you, not just as their boss, but as a person . You know, to give you that outpouring of support . Not everyone would do that. The ceo of their company. Why do you think you had that from them . No, i would attribute it to my listening to you know, it started with the letter that sent that was sent out to employees when i was announced, the first letter that was drafted for me and sent from sort of approval and review was kind of the corporate pablum, right . It didnt say anything. And me understanding a little bit by being on the board but knowing that we had had just lots of turmoil, we had a merger that wasnt going well. Leaders over the course of the again last decade and that if somebody else knew was coming it had to sell on different and so i again i took pen to paper and wrote what i thought was a much more personal, giving them an insight as to i am as a human and what i would be not in a i hope to hear from you. And thats like it was i wrote it. I think in a way that connected with a lot of people and people begin to say im not only does he have a last name that different than everyone else weve had, not only does he, but he also saw. And well wait to see if indeed differently. And so i think i think part of that initially was that and then its something i call proof promise. So the letter was wonderful and it connected with people, but it promised a lot of things. So what are you going to do and what are you going to do it so me on the road immediately and talking with people at the absolute most front of our organization on a one on one basis went on to we dont have factory floors in an industry right theres not a place where you see more than a few people at any point in time because everyones constantly working so a are taking a break at different times. So so making that connection the course of of my my early time there to really engage really listen that word traveled fast and at i think it resonated with many people that indeed i was looking to something differently now mind you there was a lot of push back and i describe a couple of the more dramatic and emotional where youre sitting there in front of a hundred other, you know, tech maintenance folks in a hangar and, theyre angry. They dont have a contract. They havent had a contract for a while. They dont think anything is right. Weve got split decisions, how we maintain aircraft between the way united did it and the way continental did it. And so my, you know, their job every day is miserable and filled with sorts of acrimony and distrust and no compensation because of the rest of the industry. So understandably upset. But being able to stand there and listen and get them to provide me what i say, i need actionable items. You can yell and scream to me all you want. You can tell me to fire everyone. None of that is actually actionable. Give something more tangible. What is it that i can help lead and move forward . And so it was a lot of those conversations act that i think resonated. And then and then the fact that i got sick and such was 37 days into my job when i had that that heart attack. I think all of the combination of those and outreach and everyone talking about my of engagement probably had a lot to do with why they were so supportive of me. Yeah. And you had, i would say a pretty five years at united and it wasnt in your control. I mean, you were bookended your heart attack and by covid is the doctor dao incident in the middle it was hardly smooth sailing. The course of your tenure as ceo, how did you stay on track through all of those upheavals . Oh, the Airline Industry turbulent by its very economic forces, you know, you know, the covid, i mean, 93 of our revenue disappeared within a couple of weeks. So i mean, it doesnt get more turbulent that for a business. I think for all of us that lead. And so its not i think, specific to me. I mean, we do have a mission. We have a view and and we have a level of engagement and connection with our people and and you learn by mistakes sometimes you mentioned dr. Dao probably my one of my bigger mistakes. And if im like communication perspective, but you fought through that you rectify it i always say its never too late to the right thing and so you through those crises of your own, through crises that are youre not there. Theyre not youre doing combat is a good example. Again, you take care of your folks as well as you can. You lobby. Im in dc today. You lobby in dc for all the level of that was required to maintain airline working. And so you just stay focused and above all you have a group of leadership that supports and is really knowledgeable and focused and aligned. And you have a working group, people that say, hey, i trust that these leaders are going take care of things. And again, back to the regaining the trust of our employees at the start and it was such an important platform for everything we did. I can guarantee united would not be in a situation that it is today thriving androwing and looking for the future. It would have been a much more difficult route during covid had they not in their leadership, because we had to make some really tough decisions and count on them to trust us to do the right. Yeah. You said earlier that one of the ways that united itself, apart from some of its competitors is its commitment to sustainability. And you wrote in the book that you see corporations as having a responsibility to quote persistently an address, a large global issues. And i wanted to ask you about that. Why do you see kind of sustainability as you and i, as uniteds big issue that its positioned to address and what are some of the other things that United Airlines other Large Companies are in a position to tackle. Yeah you know so first and foremost, weve become a bit of a divided world where everything either left or right oriented, politically motivated or personal agenda we burn as industry worldwide, close to 100 billion gallons of jet fuel. And we should we not a level of responsible party and awareness that the impact of on this planet is not insignificant. We can debate Climate Change and everyone has their viewpoints and again, politically charged. But if indeed you believe that this level of carbon emission has an impact, you know ashes of can you do something about it and of course we can all we can do something. The real question is will you do something about it . And again, given the nature of our business and level of carbon emissions, we put its just a matter of time before something is going to break in our system so we should begin to plan ahead and of what the future might be. And so Sustainable Aviation fuel is is a great example for a couple of yes its its better for the planet but the way we began and i began to really somewhat somehow coerce even some of our leaders around the world in the sea and the industry Airline Industry is the economic benefit. So not talking social issues or political issues, but the fact that fuel on the part of an airline is, one of the biggest line items, one or two besides labor and importantly as volatile fuel goes up, fuel goes down, it gets what our equity is doing the course of that time, a complete inverse. So your your spikes up Airline Industry stocks go down it is so volatile that it makes our industry while not not investible its not as investable as others because theres just so much uncertainty you can run a perfectly wonderful great airline, but, you know, fuel spikes and your stock goes down with everyone else. So think the concept of Sustainable Aviation fuel not only is being good for the planet, but think of it as a consistent nonvolatile pricing model. With regards to one of your biggest cost inputs, think of the value on your equity. If investors didnt have to worry about the volatility of stock price and that began to resonate as a business discussion and an economic one rather than a social one, because makes all the sense in the world and, in a world of market forces, right, which are very efficient, if indeed the Airline Industry as a whole begins to create a demand and for some type of Sustainable Aviation fuel, the supply side happen right industries, startups. I mean this is a manmade problem and it can be fixed by and by by men as well think jfk said that a long time ago and we think thats so. But somebodys got to push for it. Its a concept. Can you do something and will you do something it . And so thats an issue that we, you know, that we took on early on. My successor is just as i i would put United Airlines as just the best airline in that space we could be one of the Top Companies in world leading through sequester nation through the investment in vehicles in the future and and all the investments theyre making. So its an important part. Its business and it also helps the planet. And so you be you can be principled and profitable at the same time would be my adage right. And you wrote more broadly in the book the need for a more general sustain viable travel revolution. And what does that mean beyond . Just Sustainable Aviation fuel . I mean, think, for example, of uniteds partner, lufthansa, that has an investment in the German Railway service where, they can sell through ticketing on a mixed itinerary. I mean, does it look like united investing in high speed rail in the us . What does a Sustainable Travel revolution the board actually mean . You know, i think, you know, integration and business horizontally and vertically is something that, you know, been done for ages. I think a couple of things specific to rail a high speed it is yet another one of those societal political slash funding issues that you people dont travel on trains in the u. S. Its very accepted in europe, as you know. But weve not gotten there. And the, you know, the amount of cost that is going to be required do that at some point in time is not so i dont know that i would i would support a move into another industry of that with all of all of its own issues. I we have plenty to do inside of our inside of the airline. And i think the focus for the Airline Industry is to move towards more sustainable electric planes electric flying cars we call them tall electric vertical takeoff and landing. Theres a Company Called boom. So archer is a big if, a company that im associated with. Theres boom supersonic, which supersonic is coming back. And a more customer friendly, safer, sustainable and comfortable sort of approach. So i think united is continues to sort of delve into in this Sustainable World of fuel and vehicles to do that along with, you know, wonderful things for your convenience. I think the level of information and and and entertainment that you have on board will happen on food and will continue to be refined. Its not easy to food to serve perfect food that everybody wants on every single flight and, you know, we keep pushing the envelope on that as well towards the positive. Yeah, i know thats something that united is kind of criticized for. People say that their catering has a ways to go to up. I mean, why what are what are kind of the barriers there are you know, its its logistics. Its peoples taste. Its its so many different things. We we had we had our own kitchens and we were probably the only us airline for a while to do that. And was very proud of that. I was very proud of the work we did because we united employees put this food together for in a lot of cases. But you know to a lot of different issues unionization of those, weve had to sort of begin to outsource some of that. So part of it is economics and just Business Dynamics that that forced you to go to a different person. Logistically, its very difficult taste is very difficult. I youve seen the apps roll out that you know allow you to choose of a various a broad array of meals and again youre working in a very confined space at 35,000 feet. So all those things just dont make for a really good avenue to serve really good food. And so in addition to trying to improve the onboard experience at united, youve seen us build out our clubs. If you travel with us frequently, youve seen all our all our clubs at airports being updated, the food being improved there. Weve had youve spent a lot, lot of money doing that so that people can enjoy themselves, relax, maybe get a meal before they get on the aircraft. If they dont really want to wait for choosing. So theres many ways to skin the cat. Theres many issues with why quality is difficult, but people are trying and tastes are different and things are are just not not you know, its a constrained space and but the journey continues. You talked earlier about connecting with people during tour, in part because you came similar backgrounds is a lot the employees here who you are meeting out in the network can you talk about how your upbringing and how your personal background kind of positioned you to lead the airline at the time you were there both because i know you come from a Strong Union Family and also because a latino and many of the people work for you are. So that was different. See someone like you at the top. Yeah. Its a special, honestly. And again people theyre not theyre not a minority. They are cohorts. Its often hard for for people to understand what it means for a person of your same heritage to see another person of of their heritage in a position of authority, of leadership. But it is it is heartwarming. It is tear jerking that level of i would get when i went to a lot of facilities because of what you just said there was a shared heritage there that just made it differently. And its like not many people that work those jobs get a chance to see someone that looks like them, speaks like them, understands our culture to do that. So we a term called oral also in spanish which is you know, just think people are just genuinely saw warmed that someone like could be in the role that i have and so that i think clearly and and again i think throughout the book you see the sprinkles of i think the of my heritage and my upbringing in i know a lot of the decisions that i had to make over the course of my tenure the listening and learning the connecting people is certainly one of them. You know, speak about my maternal grandmother, who i, you know, a good eight years of my life traveling around the of mexico while i waited to reconnect with my mother, who in the states by then and and you know her work ethic our ability go from home to home to meet with people that were distant in our familiar and the word familia is is just has a deeper resonance in the latin language and in have means a lot of wonderful things in the us as well but it just you know theres something about the the latin view of it that really is warm and accept ing and embracing of of different views and so that helped me my work ethic was she worked till she was six and then she ended up at a as a maid at the flamingo in las vegas and, you know, on her retirement there, she named to the hall of fame of employees. Her plaque still exists and know when i get a chance, i go by there, get to see that. And so that kind of example, you know, my concept of proof not promise my grandmother did nothing ever but deliver on the proof of hard work caring for others never complaining never blaming someone else and all of that upbringing is part of my for sure but part of her and many my other family members as well and. I think that really helped as i a very fractured again disengaged organization that was looking for something i think me they found someone that was and they were willing to listen and and genuinely desirous of their input. Great. You turning to covid for a second you said before that united ultimately realized a 93 drop in demand. How did the airline or any airline survive an come to recover . It was a it was a mad. Im its pretty fair to say that we at united were the first ones to really recognize the potential impact. I was on the cover of the New York Times shortly after a meeting at the white house with the president and Vice President pence. Pence and all the organization where my arms are literally like this, where im telling the story of a weve seen north italy completely devoid anybody traveling or anybody booking ticket and this is when there was a weekend when south korea had it had had an outbreak as well as north italy and and italys a lot closer to the u. S. Than korea. And so that proximate you just couldnt help but think if indeed its a you know we didnt know what the disease was but if indeed its airborne or foodborne or whatever we were going to it was going to hit the border of the u. S. Quickly. And so we we began to quickly assess what that impact might be. So the financial aspect of, hey, what if . You know, we weve seen models before. 11 was a situation where, you know, completely shut down air travel that only lasted a few months. We had no idea how long this would last. Had no idea what level it would go. So we began to do math. You ask questions how you survive as you do the math, how long can you go before youre bankrupt . And so our great finance team did some work and a 25 drop and a 50 drop. And i remember a conversation about taking it all the way up to 75. And as we said, it went to 93 and all of us me spending time with the ceos here in the United States talking about the potential impact that that could be. We started early. We went to the debt market very quickly. We shut down all our Capital Projects and we began to sort of, you know, tighten everything and wait for this coming storm. And we didnt know nature or what level it would take. And so, you know, we survived by getting a little bit ahead of it, but so did the others quickly following. And then, you know, we worked hard here in d. C. To get the cares act passed. And a lot of people even then would term it as as a bailout similar to the auto industry. If you look at the facts, the Airline Industry was had never been in a better financial position than early in 2020. And we had just delivered our three year projections that everyone doubted the way we had just delivered a year advance. And were getting ready to sort of begin to project the next three years. So we in a better place. But you know, we got hit by something thats thats completely out of our control, the level of impact that weve. And so we were able to convince and work with the government to get us, enough money to keep our people. Why is that important . If you want the economy returned, you need business, commerce to return in order to have business and commerce, you have to have people flying and you cant that without an airline. And if we as an airline shut down and furlough all our you just dont bring them back in a week or a month pilots to constantly fly to be certified. So if you if you send them home you have to spend a lot of time certifying. Theres all sorts of safety aspects of that badging at airports as a host of things that if you shut down the industry and you want return the economy quickly, those things were just counter opposed to each other. And so we made that effective sort of conversation in a negotiation and painfully did receive painfully because to this day, you know, the constraints on the Airline Industry, its compensation of executives, things you can do from a financial perspective all still continue to be restricted. It not a handout and it was not a bailout. But i think to your to your answer, i think the ability to keep everyone working as demand began to slowly recover, not only did it help the industry, but i think i think it helped the economy of the United States begin to regain. I always talk about the Small Business folks in. America, even during covid. And if you ask anybody that owns a Small Business, you know that, you know, you just corporations have a lot of wherewithal and can go work from home and do all of those different things. But the people that really drive our economy and these are the Small Business owners that hustle every day. They cant afford stay home. They have to go visit their customers. They have to go make their product. And those are the people that need sort of the ability to get there in the world of transportation. So all those arguments were made time and time again. And thankfully, the administration was willing to pass and obviously congress to pass all of that for us. In the book, you know, you talk a lot about different stakeholders. There the passengers that are your employees there, the for the company if you had to pi just one and i am going to make you pick one which of those stakeholders priority and why . Well, again, the history of the united turnaround was taking the priority for our employees because we could we could not have done anything. Weve done their complete support and buy in. And today if you were asked me the same question, i think i would answer it the same way. Its the people that deliver the service and you know, its decentralized workplace. Its an individual. He or she has to be wanting to do the right thing for the right reasons. Our customers and you have to you have to really you cant force them to do that. You cant demand that they do that. Theres something i call discretionary effort that we all have. You know, how hard we work, how big our effort is. If you get peoples heart and minds behind it, you can do that. So to this day. My admonition to everybody in the industry is dont lose your People United lost its and look how difficult that was to climb out of that. If you lose your people again it may not necessarily work to them out of there again out of those doldrums. Thanks and again, oscar. Thank you so much for taking the time to this conversation. Everyone go read time. Theres so many questions i didnt get to ask you. I wish we had more time, but i just want to thank you for writing the book and for sitting down with me to answer these questions. Thank you very appreciate the afterwards is one of our signature book tv programs with nonfiction authors. You can watch afterwards and other book tv programs every sunday on cspan2 or any on our website, tv. Org. Book tv. Org. Cspans washington journal. Our live forum to discuss the latest issues in government, politics and Public Policy from washington to across the country. Coming up saturday morning, rich cohen and jessica taylor, authors of the almanac of american politics discuss the release of their 2024 in addition, the president ial campaign and key legislative races to watch. And David Riordan talks about the podcast, vital signs of democracy and political news of the day. Cspans washington journal join in the conversation live at 7 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan, cspan now or online at cspan. Org. Sunday night on q a in his book American University of richmond journalism professor looks at the 1979 sees seizure hostages were taken in all three locations including the Islamic Center and the district building. It is amazing how the story has receded into the background and we dont talk about it as much. This story has never been assembled in 50 years. A lot of it was lost and nobody thought much about this. The local Court Records were lost including the transcript. I was able to uncover the transcript. In addition to the fbi records but that record really helped me piece together the sequence of events in washington on those two days. He and his book american caliph. 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