Transcripts For CSPAN Fmr. 20240704

A healthy democracy looks like this where americans can see democracy at work the citizens are truly informed. Our republic thrives. Get informed straight from the source on cspan. Unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. From the Nations Capital were the opinion that matters most is your own. Cspan, powered by cable. Now to a discussion with former afghan officials including former ministers for Public Health and education on the talibans governance following the u. S. Withdrawal of troops two years ago. This is one hour 25 minutes. Hello everyone thank you for tuning in wherever you may be my name is Michael Kugelman im the director of the South Asia Institute at the Wilson Center. Two years ago the taliban seized power in afghanistan and nearly two years ago u. S forces completed their withdrawal from afghanistan. This month the Wilson Center is producing a series of content to mark these two anniversaries. It is part of an ongoing series launched soon before the u. S withdrawal called hindsight upfront afghanistan the hindsight up Front Initiative aims to help ensure that afghanistan continues to figure in policy and public debates in washington and beyond. It will keep you informed about the future of afghanistan its people the region and why it matters. For more information please see the hindsight upfront afghanistan website at afghanistan. Wilsoncenter. Org. Today i am very pleased to be joined by three prominent and distinguished afghan thought leaders who will participate in a conversation with me about taliban led afghanistan two years on. We will look at what has transpired on policy levels over the last two years and we will also look to the future in terms of what to expect in the next year and what role the International Community can reasonably play to help address afghanistans many complex challenges. Let me very briefly introduce our three panelists. Dr soraya deleo is a physician. She is also served as a visiting fellow at harvard. She is a former afghan minister of Public Health and a former afghan ambassador to the un. Were also delighted to have with us two Wilson Center colleagues dr mir wise balke is a Wilson Center fellow and a scholar of International Relations he is also a specialist on education policy and security hes a former afghan minister of education and a former afghan diplomat mr nader notary is a Wilson Center senior fellow he is also an associate fellow at the osser institute and a visiting fellow at stanford he is an expert on an advocate for human rights justice and peace building he previously served as a Senior Advisor to the president of afghanistan and was a participant from the governor government side in the doha talks with the taliban in 2020 and 2021 so thank you to the three of you for for joining me for this important conversation and lets lets get started and get right into it my first question that i will pose to you all is how would you assess on policy levels the talibans performance over the last two years and well start with you and i would invite you if youd like to describe the talibans brand of basic governance its capacity for basic Service Delivery and Revenue Generation and its use of justice and also how do you think that the talibans level of brutality compares to its time and power in the 1990s over to you. Well thank you so much good morning michael and colleagues on this call its a sad day to to remember two years on directly to a question that we do have at least two types of governance models globally known. Democratic representative governance where the People Matters most and then we have authoritarian ones where certain ideologies or biology or a political agenda through suppression is being enforced on people its rule by law its not rule of law today in afghanistan the brand of the talibans governance is the later the an authoritarian system of governance that has limited views of the governments responsibility towards its citizen. The role of citizen citizens is so many model and therefore or even not being considered in the process of Decision Making delivery of services is not considered as the prime obligation of the state or the authority in charge but obeying the orders and the rule of the of the authority basically controlling the life of every aspect of the life of the population is considered a prime obligation of the citizens. Therefore we have a very repressive system of governance applied with limited scope. Now while theres no delivery of services on health on education the basic services are denied to the population but population are expected not to raise voices and to not have the right to gather and the the right freedom of assembly and the rest of the bill of rights chapters of constitutions that have had since 1990. Over a century at the advance of being practicing most of those rights all of those are being abolished. Now there were your question about their repression and a violation of human rights that compare between the 90s and their second rule theres little difference except from the fact that they today allow media to operate with a restricted and limited level they do love now cameras they didnt in the past so thats the only change however the systematic application of suppression through a state agencies the gdi general director of intelligence and the vice virtue an institution is an addition to their ability to enforce their way of life on population. They enforce a lot extracting revenues for population there is a lot of phrases on them to say that they are collecting taxes which is on one hand they have been successful to collect taxes but on the other hand the taxes are very excessive that does not meet the economic wellbeing of the the country and would not allow the society and the economy to grow but also there are additional taxes that the religious taxes they apply theres no code that the population would know what kind of taxes they have to pay. Some of the old systems are applied some of the some of the new one while a Transparency International ranked ranked them that the corruption has gone down but i urge everybody to look deep down to some of the other indicators look at the level of liquidity that has gone down and with that theres lesser money look at the yes at the custom departments there is a lower level of leakages as it was in the past but there is also a large scale of corruption when you look at the Mining Sector and the way the mining contracts are done and other contracts are. So its a its mostly unfortunately a negative trend a discouraging situation and it needs a careful thought to be pragmatist to help the population but also to look forward for a longer term situation of of the miseries that they bring upon and the population. Well thank you very much for that nadder i want to turn to you know soraya as a Public Health specialist what what do you think have been the most serious Public Health challenges over the last two years in afghanistan and and how if at all have they been addressed you know one big Public Health challenge that we hear so much about is malnutrition so food and serious Food Insecurity what has been done to to address this over the last two years has this severe problem been eased at all and also the taliban as i understand it have backed a who Polio Vaccination Campaign soon after they came to power but they also of course have banned women from working with ngos so how have the taliban impacted international Public Health assistance and what do you think has been the impact on girls and women. Thank you michael i think for for afghanistan the past two years have been dark and not only with regards to the Public Health and Health Sector but overall. Lets lets admit the fact that health care and Health Sector as part of the overall system in any given country and its not an isolated service or system by itself. So what we have seen in afghanistan in the last two years is remarkably tragic and dark. In many fronts including in the area of Public Health. Now until two years ago more than one set of Healthcare Providers were female. The last 20 years investment and Girls Education in jobs and and Overall Development really enhance Girls Education and womens employment in afghanistan and in particular and Health Sector Health Sectors is traditionally attractive to women in afghanistan it has been attractive for many many decades. Women in afghanistan they have been interested to become physicians or nurses or midwives or they wanted to become teachers. Although that trend has shifted in the last two to three decades they become journalists they they went into other fields for all good reasons including and they become and in media and journalism and and business and military and security and the area of law and Law Enforcement etc. However Health Care Provision was still an attractive field and discipline for many many young women in afghanistan. So what has happened is the the impact of the policies in the last two years has greatly affected healthCare Provision in terms of the supply side but also in terms of the demand side in terms of the supply side we know that many educated people have had to leave the country and of course the Healthcare Professionals are not outside that cohort so we have a Health Workforce shortage. We used to have a Health Workforce shortage but with the brain drain that has become severe. We also had covid19 pandemic worldwide and that affected the Health Workforce in any country whether its in north or in west i mean whether its in in global north or global west. So we we i know my colleagues physicians Healthcare Providers who have been died because of the covid19 infection so that was another burden on on Health Professionals so but but also the supply when you cannot provide regular salaries when you cannot provide continued training when when theres no job prospect Career Development opportunities theres tendency for the Healthcare Providers and professionals also to to be less encouraged and to think of other options and pathways including migration. So thats on the on the supply side on the demand side there has been systematic discrimination to reduce demand especially for girls and women for example province local authorities few months ago they issued a formal letter saying that no woman can come to the clinics or hospital without having a male a companion or a relative. Thats severely restricts womens access to health care. The the letter also went beyond that and they say no doctor or no physician in the clinic or hospital is allowed to treat a female who is presenting herself without a male relative so you see how systematic the the discrimination is when this becomes part of the policy of the system itself. For example in herod one of very progress problems progressive province there was an order a letter in the herod provincial hospital that ultrasound and diagnostic medical sonography is forbidden for women its totally forbidden. Now you see that so the the the restrictions the on board supply and demand side compound the overall access to Care Provision of care and it impacts Child Mortality Maternal Mortality Families Health communities wellbeing etc etc. Now that is on top of the on top of the context which is deteriorating Economic Situation that has drought and flood and other natural disasters and overall Food Insecurity. That is when sometimes borders are closed and then you have that affects trades of goods and and supplies and so on and so forth so i think the situation in health is quite complex and unfortunately dark and disappointing. Thank you very much for that very sobering appraisal. Thank you i dont expect this your assessment to be any more optimistic than the others but let me ask you and i know that you wear two hats as an educationist and also someone that focuses on security so two two different sets of questions the first one to you mayor wise on this broader issue of assessing the last two years why do you think the taliban have imposed Girls Education bands and what else stands out for you about the talibans approach to education policy over the last two years and on security the taliban claim that they have weakened Islamic State coruscant which is really the only militant rival of the taliban in afghanistan do you agree with that that they when they say they claim theyve weakened this group and also how have the taliban dealt with al qaeda and other taliban alive terror groups in afghanistan so over to you. Thank you very much michael well before going into the root of while taliban imposing a ban on Girls Education afghanistan i think its better to define taliban then it would be easy to understand why they are imposing that such ban. For me always i i say that the definition or the clear clear definition of taliban is that they are an ideological armed radical groups dominantly with tribal background. So for such a group in any parts of the world not only in afghanistan banning or imposing any rights on women serves not only ideological but also as a means. Because if you go to the decrease of the Supreme Leader of taliban if you go to the the book written by hakani which is forwarded by the mullah it clearly says that there is no any primary concern or primary rules and regulations or obligation of islam or sharia to to deliver education for girls up to the needs. That is why ideologically it is an end to the taliban its an objective not to allow any education opportunity to the women and girls in afghanistan. And also as a means a taliban their looking for ground legitimacy among the fighters among the sympathizers and followers who have fought in the same front with the taliban against the government of afghanistan and against the International Troops and one of the legitimizing factor in the past 20 years was that see they the government of afghanistan and the International Community in afghanistan they are coming to afghanistan to westernize the women of afghanistan or to demoralize the people of afghanistan so since the legitimizing factor has given a legitimacy among few tribal people especially or with deprived background in afghanistan in the rural areas now they know that if they allow Girls Education in afghanistan they will lose that that legitimacy and the rival group in the other radical group isk is trying somehow to gain the same legitimacy to to their own fighters in afghanistan and they are now criticizing taliban for being westernized for dealing with the u. S and they know that if they if they remove that imposing a ban from girls and women or from education then these fighters they will leave the taliban france and and they will join their isk. So means and at the end both serves the taliban and that is why some of the moralistic or some of the the the news or expectations that i have seen from some western diplomats that theyre saying taliban are somehow trying to justify in a way that the taliba the Afghanistan Society is not ready to transform in a way that they or the people they accept Girls Education we have to give time and give space to the taliban that is completely a very optimistic expectation from taliban and that will not happen. And not only that as nadiri was pointing the taliban so far in the past 20 years what they are doing is not any policies or implementation for the development of education or any sector of the society they have done anything they have not done anything except what they are doing is somehow trying to issue a decrease so that they can fulfill their dreams which were not fulfilled in the 90s. That is why on the Education Sector we are always witnessing issuing decreased rules and regulations to impose more limitations to girls and women in afghanistan. Suppose recently though they banned the secondary education the High School Education the universities for women and girls but also recently they have also stopped girls who have little bit higher heights. 10 years old girls not to go to school even at a fourth standard fifth standard though it was supposed to be until sixth standard so this way they are somehow trying to even put a ban or impose a band on on same sex Elementary Education for girls and for daughters. So that is what we have nowadays on Education Sector especially im a little bit concerned that more things i think we have to expect yet from the taliban because so far what they have done is kind of imposing the structural ban on education but for the content also they are somehow trying to to bring changes and transformation for example on curriculum except those subjects which were eliminated from the curriculum system of afghanistan education nowadays they have tried a Pilot Project of illiteracy program to to ideologize or to somehow incorporate their own thoughts and lessons into into books and lessons. And nowadays theyre trying to work on curriculum reform to bring certain ideologic lessons and thoughts into into a School Curriculum as well. The teachers also the new recruitment the new recruits are from magistrate backgrounds. When a magistrate background teacher will teach chemistry, physics, biology at the school level. At the same time some of those schools, modern schools are in different provinces, especially the girls schools since they are closed. They transform to the system. These are the scenarios we have on education nowadays from the taliban side. In the two years again, the justification they are somehow giving that they are trying to save spaces and opportunities so that the girls can go to school in the near future. They have not done even a Single Program so we have to inspect that we also have some optimism. Regarding the security again, i believe that we have to always differentiate between subjective claims and objective around realities in afghanistan. They claim that things have weekend but the ground reality shows the reverse. Insecurity situations that we have with the end of the former government in afghanistan as officials were not secure based in the cities or the remote area or rural areas in afghanistan, the same situation now the taliban themselves are facing. Bomb blasts, suicide bombing, launching rockets, assassinations, kidnapping. All of these things are happening all across the country. What are the parameters of weakening an organization in a country . Just a few months back, the governor was killed in his own office in afghanistan. In northern afghanistan, in many provinces, there are the commanders and they are active and they are assassinating the taliban, you know, official people. Bureaucratic people. So that is why i think it is just a gleam and it would be too difficult to accept this on the ground reality. What will the taliban due to al qaeda or other groups . When there is leaving between taliban and al qaeda or other terrorist groups, you can expect radical arm groups to disconnect themselves from al qaeda. Al qaeda gives the sources of income to the taliban even now and other International Groups. You see even the taliban themselves say we are going to displace them for example from southern afghanistan to northern afghanistan. And since the other groups from uzbekistan, china, they are working on treaties and provinces and the people of afghanistan are witnessing that, they are seeing that. So you can see that for all these terrorist groups. So above all, whose expectation of the taliban disconnect themselves from al qaeda . They are fighting against the u. S. , so to any other international organization, no, because they know that disconnecting themselves from any International Groups would not suit the ideology, the objectives that the taliban defines. So that is why i believe that as the isis was discontent members of al qaeda, the same way there are discontented members in afghanistan. They know the strategy and the means and approach crafted by the taliban, so i think these are claims. Military groups are also expanding in afghanistan to delegitimize the taliban and also to gain power in the country. Thank you very much for that. There he interesting, comprehensive responses, thank you. I know they briefly wanted to weigh in and then we will move to thinking about the future. Though ahead. Thank you. Just a couple of points about the taliban and education and security. An additional element is the talibans restriction on education is part of a systematic oppression behavior. So they trying to put in place rules and systems to further oprah rest and deny the majority of the population but specifically the women of afghanistan of all of their lives. Education, social life. They are talking about Economic Activity but in the ecosystem and environment they have created, it would be difficult for women to even operate. For example on Economic Activity. And they do this to dominate completely over the lives of a segment of society. Therefore, all of these acts are elements of the crime and afghan women are calling for recognition of gender apartheid under international law. I think it is time for the rest of the International Community to be shaken as it was in the 80s and 70s. It is not that society does not want education, there are numerous from the community itself, majority of the afghan population are demanded access to education, education facilities. But it is for that political reason, not religious reasons, that justify the religious cover that the taliban are adding to their oppression. On the question, it is very important to look at the regional dynamics of the taliban coming into power. While there is apparently under the surface, there is an overlap, convergence of interests of the United States and the taliban in fighting. For the taliban, it is a Group Striking against authority, therefore it is their own domestic power interested that drives them. Not broader global obligation as the u. S. Calls. For the u. S. Of course, fighting with one group, but we should not forget in the past 20 years and today and the future it has been a group like the taliban that created an environment where antiterrorist groups there are a number of studies and assessments of the intelligence community, over 20 different groups of terrorists interests operating in afghanistan. Take a look at what kind of dynamic it created. The pgp, what they have created is a frankenstein monster but it is hurting them. The stability of pakistan state. The rest of the region, iran is nervous, central asia is nervous. Theyre trying to keep some discussion with the taliban. So terrorism regionally has not been diminished but added to it china is concerned. The chinese, early on they engaged in negotiating with antiislamic the etim, east turkestan islamic movement. They did the same thing they suggested to pakistan. The trade to the region potentially exists and continues to be strengthened but also internationally, taking the bigger problem of this migration route. With that there is a lot of elements of these groups that could find their way to other places and remain international. Thank you very much for that. So what i would like to do now is take the conversation to a more forwardlooking approach. Weve heard some troubling assessments over the last two years in afghanistan, but i think the big question to consider is what is next . In a moment i will want to ask you all to weigh in on what role you think the International Community should play in trying to help afghanistan address its challenges. But first before we get to that, i think it is important to take stock of what might be coming up around the corner read i think if we could envision if i could ask each of you to envision how your area of focus might be playing out in the next year or so because it is difficult to predict, what do you think might be some helpful signposts to keep in mind in considering what the next year may look like in a policy level in your areas of focus. Dr. , i will come back to you on this first. What do you expect to see in the Public Health sector over the next year . Not a lot of positive signposts can be visible at this stage. The elements, the ingredients that put direct us to see a more negative picture and image is more powerful then those who could draw a positive picture. And and and what will happen in afghanistan depends on of the region, what is going on including iran. And china and the relationship and interaction between those multiple countries, as well as the u. S. , itself. I think what is important for us, most especially for the political community, like those, the distinguished panelists here, is we really need to have critical questions and discussions among us and go into the root causes. We cannot be subject to foreign policies of other states as such and be maneuvered by decisions that are made in other territories that affect the life of every afghan no matter where they live in afghanistan. I think the level of vulnerability for millions has increased tremendously, that justifies an honest, truthful debate and discussion among ourselves with selfreliance and self dependency. I think being dependent on even foreign aid for assistance, foreignbased solutions, is not going to take us very far. We have seen that. We paid a huge price for that. Only not only ikeda, distinguished colleagues of me in the palace paid it. It is ordinary farmers, ordinary, real workers. Ordinary women and men in afghanistan paid this price. We have to be honest. We have to speak very courageously and with really brutal truth and to see what went wrong and how this can be prevented in the future. And i think to the u. S. Audience, i would say that you need to distinguish really between your Foreign Policy and military interest versus human rights principles. I think in afghanistan, to my reading, Foreign Policy and military interests were prioritized over human rights. And i think that is what we see the consequences. We spoke in the last half hour that why the taliban are oppressive toward women and so on, but we know why they are like that. But the question is what needs to be done in the future . The answer is we need to listen to women and men of afghanistan. We need to engage with them. They are really, really smart and they are so clear. This move, bread, work and freedom, this narrative and this storyline has never been this clear in afghanistan. For any woman and Civil Movement in afghanistan, and that has to be supported. That has to be supported because that is coming from a very, very Grassroots Level and it is coming continuously at various scales, in various formats, that has to be supported and has to be acknowledged. And that would be my message. Thank you very much for that. Nader, lets bring you into this and from a government perspective or governance rights perspective, as you know, one of the consistent demands of the International Community is that the taliban should become a more inclusive and future more women and religious minorities and so on in their regime do you think there is any chance of that happening over the next year . Well, michael, when we look at some of the indicators of change for continuation of consistency, unfortunately when i look and talk with people not only in kabul but in other provinces, i do not see internal deliberations among the policymaking circles of the taliban leadership that would give me a hope that there will be a change of course at least at a minimum level, on the issues of womens rights and especially in their education and other rights, but also in general in terms of political inclusivity. I have negotiated with taliban for almost a year, i know past engagements of them and the presence. But from what i know in the interaction with them, their definition of a government is very much difference from the ordinary afghans expectations. Ups and downs in the past four decades, in essence. Therefore they only trust there is a significant lack of trust in the society and the rest of the population among those internal groups of the taliban. Therefore, that absence makes them only stay within themselves. They even do not have confidence or trust with some of their own members that worked with them in the first ruled that they had in the 90s. There is no policy deliberation opportunities. Second issue is absence of an interest to set clarity by systems of law to begin with. With the constitution, the foundation of any government within any countries and states operations is that contract, whatever way it is imposed to the ruling and obligations to the population, there needs to be a document, a constitution. There is no internal discussion that they are going to work on a process for Constitutional Development or approval. The same thing goes with the overall structure of governance. Some indicators, the attitude of the taliban members that they believe they are operating if not sustaining the country and they sustain power overpopulation. It is temporarily temporary. In the past with their family, they may be there short term. They do not think of it as a permanent state institution. Its a good thing but also a bad thing. In my view, looking to all the indicators and internal policies, they will continue the same as the past. There will not be any process for Constitutional Development. Suppression of rights will continue and rulings to suppress rights of not only women but the rest of society. Political activities will further be curtailed. The issue that political actors cannot engage in political activities. Without any advice or freedom to engage in political or social activities, that will further. Not entirely different corners of the country, but its because of the new department they created, the department of monitoring and oversight of the decree is going to enforce most of those decrees. Further marking curtailment of political freedoms. At the same time, the dilemma will continue. In the economy i see certain aid has declined. Most donors are not able to justify continuation of a significant amount of aid to afghanistan. Germany significantly reduce their contribution so that other countries are considering to do the same. The liquidity and the aid coming to the country goes down, the economy will further shrink and further get hit. Therefore some people last year or the past six months think that their stability on currency is going to be affected in the next year unfortunately. To mitigate that of course, the lasts delegation meeting with the taliban socalled foreign minister and the language used there suggests that there are attempts to look at stabilization of the economy and gain incentives through the taliban to highlight some of these socalled dog rest that they have progress that they have taken from the cultivation to the security expansion which is undue or unnecessary credit that they are giving to the taliban because the taliban created that environment of purity everywhere from school to mosques. They are in charge so security is not required. Anyway, the process of finding ways to engage will continue at the same time. Thanks, nader. Lets come to you. We have heard notter and soraya with proposed trajectories for afghanistan which do not appear to be very bright for the reasons that they laid out. Now lets come to you on the issue of education. I cannot help but ask you do you think there is any chance that girls schools could reopen and if so, under what circumstances . On the security front, coming back to the terrorism discussion that you were having before, do you expect is there any chance that the taliban could decided to move against any terror groups in the country and if so, under what circumstances. Over to you. Well, on education there appears ahead of us not does not look good and afghanistan, because what we are facing now in afghanistan is a gradual collapse of educational infrastructure, even then when we were in the ministry of education, investing in education in afghanistan, we were concerned about certain obstacles, certain limitations in afghanistan and we could not meet the expectations of the people in different in afghanistan, the demand for education which for them, and now also, the same situation we have in addition to that, we are putting more obstacles into that. So that is why i have concern about the education in afghanistan, there is the statement we hear that sometimes no education is better than bad education, so what we are seeing in afghanistan not only for girls, also for boys, the curriculum, the verbal content and hidden curriculum they are being taught in different schools, and if the new teachers are being excluded from different they are categorized in taliban ideology. What will be delivered to the young generation in afghanistan is completely segregated, contained with talks about narrowed ideology, how to deal with certain others. That is why if you do not have minimum infrastructure in afghanistan on education, the scenario will be worse. Even if the International Community delivers on some of the opportunities, finance, assistance to the education without infrastructure, how you can implement that . That is the biggest concern that i have. In addition to that, nowadays, the teachers in afghanistan, they are leaving their schools, they are leaving ministry of education for different other jobs because they have to earn at the end of the day. The overall poverty situation and ratio which is growing unfortunately now also affects education infrastructure and also the education opportunity in the country because majority of the families, they prefer to send their children to the jobs on the street in different other areas then to send to the schools. Those who can afford to leave afghanistan now, millions of people migrated to pakistan, migrated to iran for their daughters education, for their boys education, speaking with many families in afghanistan, they say yes girls cannot go to school, but what about boys . They are also at the same time concerned about their boys. So that is the scenarios ahead that we are expecting in the years ahead in the country. On security, that is an important question, whether the topic on the side, all of these other organizations or not. What i believe is any other radical organization which curtails the existence of taliban, of course taliban will fight but they are survivors. The question is whether they can afford to fight or not, because those who are in the taliban, the discontented groups of the taliban, those who are using the same means to fight against taliban, i think they are more i mean prowar in afghanistan because they have the rural areas and they are controlled and different movements across the country, they are excluding the young generation from other matters and other places because the taliban has as an administration cannot give expectations of thousands and thousands of armed fighters who were somehow trying to in many ways in the past 20 years. Most of them do not have a source of income, so they are trying to see some other sources of income, especially in rural areas, they gave salary, they gave illegal spaces to earn money. So this is why the security scenario ahead of us is a game i believe that the continued battleground will remain in afghanistan and conventional fighting, conventional war that the taliban are now conducting somehow, that no help to fight against these organizations. In the past 20 years also, the conventional war by International Troops and by the government of afghanistan could not eliminate the taliban. It cannot eliminate in afghanistan and any other groups who are now against the taliban. There is another reality also and that is that the taliban nature itself is very much vulnerable. We somehow in the beginning were expecting a Single Organization which would rule afghanistan through totalitarian ways, but nowadays we know that there are contradictions. There are new things, different interpretations and narratives inside the taliban itself. The divisions they have, geographical divisions that they have. Ideological divisions that they have. All of these divisions that they have inside themselves i believe will also be a means of distraction for the taliban to make themselves focused on their own survival inside afghanistan. So in education and security, we do not have any positive signposts or any optimism at all or hope so that it gets a little bit better in these sectors. So thank you for that. I wanted to stay for a few more minutes on this issue of the role of the International Community especially because weve heard from all of you that things have not been good over the last two years and things are not going to get any better. But what there be if any for the Key International actors, particularly the u. S. , to try to at the very least help improve the plight of the Afghan People on humanitarian grounds. Theres been a question many panelists on the outside have been asking ourselves and that is potentially is there any way to go beyond what is already coming, humanitarian aid . Is there anyway to go beyond that, to bring relief to be Afghan People without violating the sanctions regime on the taliban . It welcomes any of you who would like to weigh in on how you would go about that conundrum. Is there a middle ground further than humanitarian aid but without getting yourself in a position where you risk violating the sanctions . Related to that, another key question, do you think the International Community i would emphasize the u. S. But generally speaking, do you think the International Community should engage more, less, the same with the taliban . No country has recognized the taliban but many countries including the u. S. Many governments engage with the taliban as someone mentioned. There was a meeting of senior u. S. Officials that met with taliban leaders not too long ago. So i throw this back i know its a tough question but i throw this to any of you who would like to reply to those questions. I think my microphone is on, so let me talk please. Michael, the u. S. And International Community cannot disengage from afghanistan, because afghanistan is a reality and the people of afghanistan, millions of people, are a reality and a part of the world. If they are in danger of that fate everywhere else. Defined engagement with afghanistan, a unified persistent engagement with the people of afghanistan. First of all, we do not have a unified or defined or single message from the International Community to the taliban and the people of afghanistan. For example, when there are senior diplomatic meetings of the u. S. Or for example norway or sweden or anyone with the taliban, they deliver different messages and received different messages. The taliban, when International Media says the taliban have changed, they stay changed because they know how to play diplomatic and how to use different new tools to some kind of convince the opposite. And too long survive. That is one important major issue that if there is no clear message, unified and defined message, the taliban, they know there are some spaces to go off on. The second thing which is very important is that there has to be a difference between humanitarian and financial assistance. Humanitarian needs, the people of afghanistan is now a days in a disastrous situation and the poverty ratio is just, you know, reached its max. So for the financial assistance, there has to be an oversight from the ground realities to International News and different other mechanisms. I always propose that if in different sectors of education, health, or other humanitarian aid, there has to be consistence of different donors so that at least through international implementing in afghanistan, that is workable in afghanistan so that the people directly receive donations and for example on education there are countries who are friends of afghanistan on education, who are supporters of education in afghanistan. They cannot make a consortium of Education Sector and through save the children or example the foundation, then there are social groups inside afghanistan and the taliban are also some of these or parts of these district cartels. These can be working and there would be an oversight process so that engagement can be within a limitation. We are also making sure that assistance and aid is not going into the channel of the taliban to be used for their own survival. Interesting, thank you for that. Nadir, please go ahead, i know you wanted to respond. Just to add about a few points, when we expect from the International Community the expectation formulated within the new global reality, the global power competition with china and the increasing instability in africa, central africa, including what is happening in senegal and sudan. They may create a global crisis, which all demand global attention, humanitarian aid. Within that context the focus on afghanistan unfortunately, especially with the disengagement of a large number of International Communities in afghanistan and the consequences of two years ago, the collapse and withdrawal, most policy makers because of their own domestic political needs are embarrassed by those policies, do not want to bring back to the surface debates. They feel guilty and sometimes do not have the resources to focus. So the focus has become so narrow and therefore, the leverages of International Actors including the United States is so narrow. Especially because the policy is a very focused policy, looking into some of the measures that have been taken, all of that gave us limited ability to see how the community would influence reality on the ground to change and the taliban to change. We have lived long with the taliban to expand what could help their attitude change and what would not. Certainly, the current approach, inconsistent messaging, is not going to work with them. They have sustained their positions for a long time. They learned and now believe that they do not need to change, the International Community has to change. Within that context it is much more complex, but simplifying it, what is required for the u. S. To keep this international, informal consensus of keeping leverage of not recognizing the government of the taliban and the government of pakistan because they do not have the afghan population. It is justifiable and logical for International Communities to endorse the demands of the afghan population. If they change, if they make an inclusive acceptable government they would engage. Therefore, you so to keep that and continue preserving it, doing a good job meeting with people, it is important to keep the regional consensus on that. It needs to be preserved further and strengthened. Second, empower the afghan voices. My message to my afghan counterparts are do not wait for the u. S. Or any international actor. It is our country, we have to do things that change the situation and lives of our own people. We owe it to the 14 million population who have been left to misery today because of decisions when we were in the government. We have to take some burden and not rely everything to International Actors. First thing is to create a uniform voice. The International Community can facilitate part of that unification of the voices. There are issues that all afghans know about, diaspora and inside. When the International Community needs with the taliban and already, make sure that the message is sent also that there are other actors in afghan society. In the late 90s when the taliban and other fighting actions, the former u. S. Special decided to look for a nonviolent, Democratic Force out of the warlord cycle, it must be a much more broader consultation. With a wider spectrum of society. So the taliban can see that they are not the only in the country, there are other actors. And lastly, the preservation of the space. This may continue for a decade or longer or lesser, hopefully lesser. To enable the fighting, the International Community through different means, political, moral support or sometimes financial, they need to engage in ways that do not harm but strengthen those social activists on the ground to expand the civic space. People like we saw as education leaders, also fighting leaders. I do not see a collective outrage from International Actors. It is engagement. You do engage on saving lives, humanitarian issues, sever tests from political issues and those political issues need to be principlesbased. I think expecting the taliban to only buy a meeting they would change, they would not. You need to be consistent in public on what you hold them accountable for and that needs to be logically stated. What you are worried about, their treatment of the population. You are endorsing the voice of the afghans. Thank you very much for that. Soraya, did you want to weigh in . Yes, indeed. I would like to say engagement is inevitable. We have seen that before in the past years for good reasons, for not so good reasons. Afghanistan would remain on the table. Engagement with the taliban should be principlesbased engagement. It is easy to say and very tough to do that, but i think this is the message i would like to convict that your engagement with them, with the taliban should be genuinely based on the principles. And that means based on human rights, dignity, justice, accountability. Make them accountable. We need to find a coherent voice and messages to them that you are accountable for whatever is going on in afghanistan. They should be held accountable for that. When we say afghanistan in engagement with afghanistan is key, it does not mean only taliban. It means Womens Movement groups inside the country. Various voices inside and outside the country also engagement with them is key to this. So yes, back to you. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. We are running out of time but i wanted to end by posing one final question to you all and i would invite your brief responses if you would like. I would like to conclude on a reflective, retrospective note. You all served in the Afghan Government on a very senior levels in the years prior to the taliban takeover. Different times and different posts, but you all served. Two of you were cabinet ministers at one point. Suraya was a health minister, nader had been a Senior Advisor to the president and was involved in talks with the taliban. I would be curious to ask you in retrospect, is there anything you would have done differently in her capacity as senior policymakers, given how things have ended up in afghanistan. Nader, i think i heard you refer to mistakes that had been made but it would be useful to end on this note if any of you would like to weigh in and speak to anything you wish had been done differently when you were in government in the past, prior to the taliban takeover . Hi may start with three probably reflections. First, on the question of justice in afghanistan, when i was a Human Rights Commissioner, we did a lot my colleagues and i to promote not only fundamental human rights but also justice and accountability. When i reflect now especially the first five years i joined the Human Rights Commission in 2004. 2042 thousand nine, we did a lot to advocate for justice 2004 through 2009, we did a lot to advocate for justice. But we should have been more aggressive because that was an area that frustrated people to see some of those bad actors who had been involved in atrocities, being rulers at a different level, district level or others. The same goes to what happened in the villages and other places where some of these commanders and warlords abused their relations with International Actors and tried to harass communities, then pushing them into the arms of the taliban. More demand on accountability and justice with normalization of something i requested we should have done more. Second comes to the issue of institution building. We begin very late in looking how effective public administrations could bring population back to the side of the constitution and start with that kind of relation, bring the citizens closer to the government. There was some efforts, especially in my last year, i was the chair of the Civil Service commission, we had a lot to do. Beyond that, work needed to be happening. It it was met by the president and then it was missed to look nonpolitically also especially serious by the president. So more advocacy is needed to strengthen institutions, to make sure that they can sustain and stand up to these kinds of storms as the talibans revolutionary approach came in, so we have seen most of those gains rolled back. That is strength that needed to be built further. The last one is on peace. When ira flecked, i wish we were doing more to expose the taliban when i reflex i wish we were doing more to expose the talibans lack of interest in a shared future. The peace talks in the first few months, there was a clear understanding, i for myself at a very clear understanding that the taliban are not interested in peace and they do not think of a shared piece for afghanistan. And they want to take everything by force. Exposing that at Different Levels of engagement from political elites in kabul, explaining the different approach, especially who did not engage in looking beyond that, but to the rest. We needed to do more to expose the taliban, the inability and unwillingness to make peace work. If were exploiting everything including name exploiting the u. S. Interest in extracting itself from afghanistan. Thank you for sharing those thoughts and your candor. Anyone else like to weigh in . I want to comment. Two points, i think one of the records that i have regrets that i have is i wish that we would have a republic system. Better, stronger, effective republic. And by that, i mean i wish we had built effective institutions, including Democratic Institutions like election commissions and others. Because if we had robust, affective, two decades old republic system, that would have delivered on the promises. The institutions, the republican democracy would have delivered its promise. I looked at the elections that took place and i really regret the management of the election processes and how how you responsible that went. I was not in charge of that but as a ministerial cabinet member i would have raised serious concerns during that time. This is when not a personal regret but more of a pain is that i wish the mass of intellectuals would not have left the country two years ago, including myself. I think the biggest vacuum that has been created is the loss of educated people, men and women, young or old, inside government, outside government, who left the country. Many locks of walks of life, different areas of work, i wish that had not happened and we would have remained inside the country to confront this from within, thank you. Thank you very much for sharing. Did you want to offer a final word before we conclude . I will emphasize what the minister said for not leaving afghanistan. I also believe that yes, if i was of this mentality then, i was not leaving and i think that was the biggest mistake we all did in afghanistan. And of course regrets are always with me when im thinking on education, security, nationbuilding in afghanistan the first one is that i left minister of education while the reform of education was completely incomplete. And so i was a little bit working with that program, so that we could at least gain some practicable aspect of that reform that we started in the minister of education. The second thing is that on security, we always deal tactically not strategically. That is the biggest mistake on our approach was security in afghanistan. That is why we were combated with the failing on the ground. And nationbuilding, the approach that we adopted in afghanistan i have also reflected in my book, nationbuilding in afghanistan and iran, a comparison. That we have focused on the afghan nationbuilding process, which did not work in afghanistan. So we have many other good modalities and capable modalities in afghanistan which we do not have time to go into detail. But we could have a different modality for nationbuilding in afghanistan, that is my concern. Thank you. Thank you very much to all of you. I know this is not an easy conversation to have, especially in terms of what we have been discussing, reflecting on what you might have wished had been done better. On the on the whole this had been an excellent discussion and we got into some very substantive discussions about what could come next and what role the International Community could play specifically. I wanted to thank you all dr. , and our other guests for joining me. Please check out our hindsight upfront afghanistan website, afghanistan. Wilson center. Org. Our goal is to ensure that afghanistan continues to feature in public and policy debates in washington and beyond. It is critical because as we have heard there is so much happening we need to talk. Thank you very much and thank you to the audience for joining in. Please keep track of that website i mentioned to look at additional content coming from the Wilson Center to mark the anniversaries, the withdrawal and the taliban takeover. Thank you all very much we will now adjourn. Next President Biden highlights Renewable Energy and manufacturing as part of his economic plan then former Vice President mike pence talks about his 2024 president ial campaign with iowa governor. At the state fair in des moines. Later, secretary of state Antony Blinken discusses foreign affairs, including irans recent decision to place five detained americans under house arrest after previously being held in an iranian prison. Cspans washington journal, a life form involving you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics and public policy. From washington and across the country, coming up wednesday morning we will talk about how local governments are using funds from the Inflation Reduction Act to combat climate change. With Madison Wisconsin mayor and former republican congresswoman Barbara Comstock talking about the future of the Republican Party in the Biden Administration and congressional efforts to regulate ecommerce sites and others. Cspans washington journal, join in the conversation live at seven eastern wednesday morning on cspan, cspan now, or online at cspan. Org. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government, funded by these Television Companies and more. Including cox. This syndrome is extremely rare but friends dont have to be. When you are connected you are not alone