Live. I am the reporter here at the washington post. Our guest is former republican from michigan it, fret up in. Fred upton. Welcome back. Fred its nice to see you. Host lets get trump was indica third time on charges thatied t0 election. You said this was totally justified. Yo impeach mr. Trump for those actions, why do you feel vindicated . Fred we saw it firsthand. Those of us that were there in the capital that day casting the vote at 8 00 when the because oe insurrectionists that were ottom line was he really did try to not allow the counting of the electoral votes on january 6. We see the conspiracy charges with the fake electors. We have every reason to believe that was directed within his administration. I read the indictment the came out this past week. I dont know how the trial will proceed. Absolutely, everyone of us all the same thing. After january 6, the president said i did everything totally appropriate. I dont know if he would say the same thing today. That was one of the bottom lines where i voted to impeach him back then. Host at dinner last friday in alabama, trump said any time they file an indictment, we go up in the polls. That is a slight exaggeration. We have seen his poll numbers go up since he announced he was running for president. The three indictments have been released. His core support never waivers. How do you explain this support . Fred he has portrayed himself as the victim. He has a massively in New Hampshire. His numbers get stronger with these indictments. I suspect there is another one this week in georgia, based on the security going on the security going of the courthouse. His numbers stay solid. He has done a masterful job at making sure his base isthey are. So far, it is not weakened him at all. Host when trump was indicted this past spring, almost all of his rivals reacted with outrage against the prosecutors. This messaging was on your old stomping grounds as we see the house gop make their oversight efforts hinge on defending the former president , saying the administration has been weaponized against him. Christie and the former arkansas governor, mike pence, you think the tide will n over all and republicans will be emboldened to criticize trump . Do you think they are going to tow the line . Fred the ones that are in the race will stay with the talking points they have set so fai watt night and i thought he did a fantastic job, coming back from ukraine as he was there a week or so ago. You see what he said it. We have this upcoming debate on the 23rd. My sense isi think you will be o take the hit from Chris Christie who might be armed and ready. He will avoid that, if he just said that he will keep his lead. Back in 2016, trump didnt win the iowa caucus. Hes done a masterful job. I suspect people will turn out. With 12 people in the race, there were over 17 back in 2016. If the clock and 10 use to take and he does make any stumbles. Host Chris Christie was one of the first people to get behind trump in 2016. He really only started speaking out against him after january 6. Why should voters trust Chris Christie now . Fred he is there are too many people in the field. Thats how trump one first time. He had a base of about 30 . He became the nominee and ultimately the winner of the election. When more republican candidates got in over the last six or eight months, it only helps him. I remember in southtim scott ane both from south carolina. It only helps trump in that way. It divides the base in opposition to them, he is going to keep his own base. People see these poll numbers. Every day, im getting something from the Trump Campaign but he is runninghes got the endorsem. He is captures that nomination. Host another governor has changed his tune in the past few days, that is ron desantis, who acknowledged that trump did lose the 2020 election. Is this a trend that will continue . What do you think a winning message is on the 2020 election . Trump will continue to litigate that. Fred for desantis, he is had a struggling campaign, he fit fired his campaign manager. No one has seen any real traction from him. For voters. If trump wasnt in the race, he would be a runaway. The trump voter says if you can have the real thing, why should we have Something Like desantis . The ads we saw in michigan, he voted against Social Security that poison the well for a lot of folks who care about that issue. I dont think he willfor a lot , if are some reason trump does fall apart, which is hard to fathom, they want to make sure they can capture that base, particularly if trump does run as an independent. Host in the case the trump does fall apart, they have floated the idea of pardoning him. You said that idea is insulting. Why . I was there january 6. This is year three since the election. He has yet to recanthe continuen was stolen. The evidence that will be presented from the grand jury, we will all see that in the months ahead. That makes it clear that there was Ae Department of justice and his top aides to interfere with the states. He continues to be on that same page. Give him a pardon. I dont want to compare this to baseball, pete rose never acknowledged that he was betting on games. For trump, he is never admitted that he lost three years later. We saw deaths at the u. S. Capitol. Weve been proud of having a peaceful transition of power. I am not in favor of a pardon. I would hope however this breaks and that doesnt become a big issue. Host the argument we heard about this being helpfults notn democracy in dictatorships, former president is behind bars. Fred this is three years later. We will see how the jury moves. A conviction and the appeals take lace. For those were trying to suggest he will be in by the november election, that is not going to happen. There is a long judicial process. Ultimately, we will watch what happens. If he gets a jail term versus some substantial fine or a major from calvin in california. What do you tell people who say this is a witchhunt or is politically motivated . Fred i was there on january 6. The evidence has come in. Whether they be in the administration or aides, they didnt want to testify. They made it difficult for the process to move forward. Even at this point, youve got the trump team asking for delays. Justice has to be served. We will see what happens. No one is above the law. Host i want to talk about the future of the gop. You were in congress for early six years. Do you consider yourself still a republican . Fred absolutely. I got my start long time ago. 36 years in the house, i grew up in the reagan administration. I am a reagan republican. I learned reagans principles way back when. He worked he ran for reelectione won 49 states. He was a standout for civility, for decency. We were going through some tough times back then. I am still republican. I am involved in a number of different things. I am also we are trying to trumw the voters to make a decision if they want a third choice based on the track record of the two that have been in office. Host many questions about your involvement with no labels. In the event of a biden trump match up, who are you voting for . Fred if get on all 50 state ballots. We are in play in two dozen states. We will have a convention in dallas april next year. I would like to think that if it is biden trump, no labels would be successful and we would have a republican and a democrat that i could support in november next year. Host what if no labels isnt successful . Fred you are putting me in the corner. We got on more than half a dozen ballots now. We are proceeding. I am watching this very closely. I think its going to happen. Host we will return to that question. In terms of thirdparty candidates, there isnt one that is one of electoral votes since 1968. Why will this be different . Fred nearly 70 of American Voters are ready for thirdparty candidate, particularly if its a rematch of biden and trump. We pulled more than 50,000 households in key statesy 20 of the vote. I think the same thing can happen here, particularly in this rematch between the two. There is a good chance, people like bipartisanship. They are tired of the crop going on the last number of years. The failure to deal with major issues like immigration and crime and a number of different things. I think if we are going to get on these ballots, we will see a team that will reach out who knows what will happen. St joe manchin and governor jon huntsman havebels. Are these the two men you are going to be having on the ticket . Fred i was there in New Hampshire for their townhome meeting. One was televised, one was not. For the launch of this, we are trying to aim right in the camera. People can get a copy online and see it. Its about 50 pages of where we stand and where we think we are on the issues. It was in manchesw hampshire. Are these the two . I would say there is a good laundry list. My name is not on it. In terms of how they would like towe will figure out how this ls out. I had forgotten jon huntsman had run for president back in 2012. I knew joe manchin when i served in the house. We did a lot of things together. We worked on the infrastructure bill which President Biden signed into law. Leader in avoiding this debt ceiling crisis. We will see how this plays out. I suspect you will see a number of these well published guys in different states. We will be talking about the need for bipartisanship and civility and working together and addressing the nations problems. Host you are not sure yet who your choice will be . Fred there is not a top choice here. We are not going to have a primary in every state. We will have a National Convention in dallas where we will ratify a team if it looks like it would be biden and trump. If for some reason its not biden and trump, we have a good number that would decide to push for a ticket. Host there have been a slate oa thirdparty candidate benefit donald trump and moves the race from very close against biden to a slight trump advantage. What you have to say about this potential that it would help trump when . We have a long time. The last thing i would want to do is to have this effort to reelect trump. I cast a vote to impeachi wouldf any effort to see him reelected. Thats why im working so hard. This allows the voters to have a third choice if that is what it is. When you look at some the polls, i have seen a lot of them since march. Rasmussen had trump beating biden. If you look at the stuff i get every day from the trump team, you would think hes running away with it. It is going to be a very interesting year. The bottom line is let voters have a choice and let them decide what their ballot will look like. Host what is your redline if you dont want to be part of an effort that helps reelect trump . Will no labels pled to abort their effort . Fred i think there have been give trump victory, we would pullack. We have until july or august next year to see how things shape out. Host i will try this once more. If you do pull back and it is biden trump, are you voting for biden or trump . Fred i dont want to say. Ask me at another time. Host when we are talking about middle ground and the rationale for why you support no labels, what is the middle ground on the topic of abortion, climate change, civil rights . Fred we have to deal with it. We saw real gridlock in the last couple of weeks in the house. Pushing for you need to pass a budget every year. The early part of this year, the house. M here we are, it is september and Congress Passed one of the house. They passed none of the senate. Resolution in the house. Be three weeks away before the end of the year. Not only do we have they said they are not doing a continuing resolution. They are going to have an automatic sequester on top of that. Youve got the faa reauthorization. You have normal things, talking about an impeachment inquiry for cabinet members and the president. We can see how that would tie things down. This is one of the most ineffective congresses weve ever seen. They have not gotten ahost thae trend in the house. As someone who watches the house and covers them closely, how has the institution changed since you were there . Fred in the beginning, when i was first elected, we did take up all the appropriation bills. We spent a week on the bill. If you raised spendingthey werey good i partisan vote. The last number of years, we ended up with a cr. We had a couple of shutdowns in the 90s. The differences between the house and the senate are so great. I dont know how they would be allowed to go home for the longest august recess without getting the work done. They had 15 balance before he was elected speaker. It took about two weeks. A lot of promises were made. A lot of the more on the physical side. Here we are. Here we are, the worst track record ever. Where are they in trying to get these bills done . They were supposed to do the agriculture appropriation bil ey didnt have the votes. They didnt have the procedure to allow for debate. They just pulled the plug and said go home. Not a good track record as you look back. To their credit, they did delay the debt ceiling crisis. That took forever and a day as well. Host der of the Publican Party . Fred you have to look at the the highest ranking republican. You have to look at mitch mcconnell. We felt bad to see his issue two weeks ago. Lets hope they can Work Together and be on the same page. This is a wonderful thing. Government, we are going to have this after the election, the only way to get things done is to Work Together. You have to work with the administration. We need to confront all of these issues. Climate change is real. Look at this summer. Its the only way to get things done. We have to get back to thateagaw it works. Host we are all out of time. We will have to leave it there. Thank you so much for