Transcripts For CSPAN IRS 20240704

Two irs to follow an investigation into the biden family. And the Oversight Committee. Now in order. I want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at anytime. Without objection, chairman of the ways and Means Committee, mr. Jason smith of missouri, is waved on to the committee for the purpose of making an Opening Statement at questioning the witnesses in todays committee hearing. I want to thank chairman smith and chairman jordan for their cooperation and working with the Oversight Committee on this investigation. This is an important joint effort that shows the American People that accountability matters regardless of your last name. For this hearing, Opening Statements will be limited to ten minutes for the chair and ten minutes for the Ranking Member. I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an Opening Statement. Since assuming a republican majority in january, the house Oversight Committee has made historically fast progress in our investigation into the biden family influence peddling schemes. Just six months, we have obtained thousands of pages of financial records. This includes bank records for biden Family Associates and suspicious activity reports generated by the biden and their associates dollars and foreign business transactions. What these records reveal is astonishing. The bidens created over 20 shell companies, most of which were created when joe biden was Vice President. Bank records so far show the biden family, the Business Associates, and their companies, received over 10 million from foreign nationals and related companies. A lot of this money poured in while joe biden was Vice President. Despite creating Many Companies after the Vice President took office, the biden used associate companies to receive millions of dollars from Foreign Companies in china, ukraine, and romania. After Foreign Companies sent money to Business Associates companies, the bidens then received incremental payment overtime to various Different Bank accounts. These complicated Financial Transactions were used deliberately to conceal the source of funds and total amounts. No normal business operates like that. What were the bidens selling . Nothing but influence and access to the biden network. This is an influence peddling scheme to enrich the bidens. We need to know whether joe biden is compromised by these schemes, and if our National Security is threatened. During our investigation, our committee became aware through whistleblower disclosures provided to senator Chuck Grassley that the fbi had an unclassified record that details and extortion and bribery scheme involving then Vice President biden and a burisma executive. This record was generated by a confidential human source that the fbi has used over a decade. It with a burisma executive complaint that he paid joe biden 5 million in exchange for certain actions. The burisma executive told the confidential human source that he didnt pay the, quote, big guy, and quote. Directly, but that he used so many black accounts that it would take ten years to unravel. Now that sounds an awful lot like how the biden family conducts business, using multiple Bank Accounts to hide the source in total amount of the money. Today, we have to brave incredible whistleblowers who have risked their careers to come forward and provide testimony. Thank you all for being here today. I know it was not an easy decision. Their testimony about the doj, the fbi, and irs investigation of hunter biden confirms the committees findings. That there is nothing normal about the biden familys business activity. The white house and democrats would have americans believe that our investigation is based on five years of conspiracy theories. But we have facts and new evidence continues to be revealed on the first familys corruption. The bidens have put themselves first and americans. Last we will continue to follow the money trail and provide answers and accountability than americans demand and deserve. With that, i yield to the chairman of the ways and Means Committee, jason smith. Thank you, chairman comer. The ways and Means Committee is charged with ensuring that the tax code is enforced fairly. Clearly, the president only believes in making taxpayers pay their fair share if they dont share his last name. These two courageous whistleblowers, provided my committee with devastating testimony showing that the government is not treating all taxpayers equally, and the doj at the irs k preferential treatment to the president s son during a criminal investigation into his taxes. These individuals in front of us today are credible and sat for nearly 15 hours of interviews with both republican and democrat. I personally took part in the interviews with mr. Ziegler. Heres what we learned from the interviewing. The irs recommended multiple, multiple felony charges, against hunter biden fort texas since 2014 through 2019. Relating to at least 8. 3 million in income from Foreign Companies including one based including Companies Based in china, romania and ukraine. That is the amounts discovered despite the roadblocks. The department of justice engaged in a campaign to delay, divulge, and deny that investigation. They delayed investigators for years. Leading to the expiration of the statute of limitations for many of the crimes involved. They divulged key investigative details to bidens attorney and even the president transition team. And they denied investigators the ability to authenticate evidence, served warrants, question witnesses, and bring charges. This led to Hunter Bidens sweetheart agreement and now five years after the investigation started, but mere days before my committee voted to publicly release this testimony. Would americans in my congressional district, or any other congressional district, ever receive this same treatment . After raising their concerns internally at the irs, these whistleblowers were discouraged and demoralized and turned to congress as a last resort. They bravely reported wrongdoings to us and what have President Bidens allies, including Hunter Bidens lawyers, done . They have responded with a Vicious Smear Campaign to discredit these whistleblowers and discourage others from coming forward. They may have even coordinated with the white house on this effort. This is a disgrace. I urge any irs employees watching today, if you know of misconduct, please come to the ways and Means Committee so we can hold accountable those who are responsible. And let me be clear, there will be zero tolerance for any retaliation against whistleblowers by doj and the irs. The American People expect answers about whether the federal government is treating all taxpayers equally, or if the wealthy and politically connected getting special treatment. Our committees are working together to get to the bottom of this abuse of power, and will work tirelessly to do so, and to make sure it doesnt ever happen again. Americans should not have to accept to tears of justice in this country. One of your last name is biden, and one for everybody else. I want to thank both whistleblowers for coming forward publicly and for their testimony today. I yield to mr. Jordan. I thank the gentleman for yielding. The question is who will you believe . April 26th in front of the United States senate, the attorney general said david white is in charge of the investigation. October 7th in a meeting with gary shabbily, one of the whistleblowers, david whyte said i am not the deciding official. Who will you believe . On february 28th i wrote the attorney general asking him why there is no special counsel in the hunter biden investigation. He did not respond. Thats unusual in it of itself. They always respond when we come to them. I will begin on may 25th, again the attorney general did not respond but david whyte did. And heres what he said. June 7th, he said this, i have been granted of the midauthority over the matter including responsibility for deciding where, when, at whether to file charge charges. That is what the u. S. Attorney said on june 7th. Three weeks later, mr. Weiss broke me again. He said this. I stand by what i wrote, but i wish to expand. Wow. Already changing his story 23 days later. He said this, my charging authority is geographically limited to my home district. Wait a minute, you just told me 23 days before that you have ultimate authority. Now you change it. Then again on july 10th, mr. Weiss wrote, senator graham, and he said this. Paragraph two, the clarify i have not requested special counsel designation, rather i had discussions with departmental officials. Mr. Weiss cant get his story straight. Three different stories than a fiveweek timeframe. June 7th, hes saying i have ultimate authority and do what i want. While charges were i want, when when i want, how i want. June 30th he says, well, actually i cant. And of course on july 10th he says, to clarify, i havent requested special counsel status but ive been talking to the folks. Three different positions and a little over a month. You know whose story has not changed . These two guys. Their testimony has been consistent throughout. Their testimony has been the same. And guess what . Two days ago, an fbi agent confirmed their testimony. Were you going to believe . The Justice Department cant get their story straight, it changed three times in 33 days, or the two guy guys . The Justice Department two weeks ago from the federal court in louisiana. The Justice Department that said moms and dads are terrorists. The Justice Department that if you are prolife catholic, you are an extremist. The Justice Department that cant get its story straight, for these two guys . Ten years, over a decade of experience for each of them, those two Guys International tax evasion cases. The 18 when it comes to investigating these letters all over the world theyve done this. And who have been consistent throughout. I think i believe these guys. I think they are the ones telling the truth. And that is fundamentally what this comes down to. So god bless you guys for the work youve done at the court you have, and for being here today. Stepping forward because you care about equal treatment under the law. That is what is at stake plain and simple. I yield back. I now yield to the Ranking Member, mr. From maryland, by his statement. Thank, you mister chairman. I thought we were here on a matter that the chairman declared a top priority there to say to find evidence of wrongdoing by President Biden, but now the majority the star witness turned out to be a fugitive from american justice. Indicted an eight federal criminal counts and an unregistered Foreign Agent for china who tried to trade chinese arms for iranian oil. After bank records, form 10 23, we can conclude that this inspector clue so style quest for something that does not exist turns our committee into a theater of the absurd, an exercise in futility and embarrassment. Now we can finally definitively say why the committees efforts have run drive time and again. Just yesterday, mister chairman, you and i got a letter from liz parnas the murder who is it really Rudy Giuliani side as giuliani and then President Trump tried to smear joe biden before the 2020 election with the very same allegation, we are still running through the political spin cycle every week in this committee. I request unanimous consent to enter the parnas record letter. In this extraordinary ten page rapper, parnas painstakingly describes the campaign orchestrated by giuliani and trump to quote, dig up dirt by the biden spread misinformation about them through various networks including govern officials, journalist, and fox news personnel. After explaining this campaign to fabricate trump charges against biden, he concluded his letter that throughout all these months of work at the campaign down by trump allies, giuliani associates, including the enormously thorough interviews which i, quote, there has never been any evidence that hunter or joe biden committed crime related to the ukrainian politics. Never during any of my communication with ukrainian officials are connections did any of them confirm or provide concrete facts linking the bidens to illegal activity. As mr. Parnas concludes, there has never been any factual evidence, only conspiracy theories, spread by people who knew exactly what they were doing. He calls on this committee to end its wild goose chase and offers to come and testify. Remember, this is mr. Giulianis guy. This is his interpreter and righthand man we spent a year out there trying to cook the books against joe biden. He offers to come testify. If anyone doubts anyone he is saying, lets bring him in as a witness. Lets hear about that crusade but they were on to smear President Biden by promoting the same baseless conspiracy spear ease that this committee serves up as moldy leftovers every day. At todays hearing we are going to hear about wrongdoing by hunter biden. Pleading guilty on two tax charges and a gun charge next week. We will hear about the back and forth among investigators, prosecutors, and a trump appointed u. S. Attorney. Over a dozen people who spent four years investigating the president son. We will hear about how they disagreed about investigative steps and what criminal charges to bring all no evidence that President Biden has involved himself in any way in the investigation into his own son. An investigation that has been overseen by trumps appointed u. S. Attorney. No matter what my gop colleagues say, i appreciate the testimony of our witnesses today, there is no evidence that hunter biden has received any kind of official favoritism in this prosecution for being to bidens son. On the contrary, there are more than 10 million americans who have filed tax pays to the exact crime that hunter biden is pleading guilty to, the vast majority of these cases are resulting in administratively or through civil settlement. Every year, at the irs and doj appoint convictions in fewer than 700 cases protects crimes of any kind. A miniscule percentage. The fact that hunter biden faced a fouryear criminal probe involving dozens of agents and prosecutors, from the irs to the fbi and the u. S. Returnees office in delaware, the doj, demonstrates in my mind at the very least that he received no special treatment, but arguably tougher treatment than the millions of people who never faced criminal investigation. If my gop colleagues think that the treatment of millions of tax or even a handful who face criminal prosecution of hunter biden is too lenient, i invite them to join us democrats in supporting the 80 billion dollars in funding for the irs that we passed in the Inflation Reduction Act last year. This money will enable the irs to make long overdue improvements to customer service, but will also enabl appointed u. S. Attorney and a rich guy exercising his Second Amendment right, but now facing criminal gun charges and charges that they would call in any other circumstance purely technical. We are about to hear testimony from two irs criminal investigators. They will describe their frustrations and disagreements with their supervisors, as well as with mr. Weiss and his team of prosecutors, would be considered junior varsity, and not up to snuff during the Trump Administration generally. We will also hear about their confusion and profound misunderstanding about mr. Weiss and how he reviewed the evidence and made the ultimate decision about charging hunter biden. A lot of the controversy here relates to agent failure to distinguish between special counsels special lawyers, but we will clear that up today. The key point, mister chairman, America Needs to understand is that the only political interference at play here is coming from donald trump at my republican colleagues. We will listen carefully to the testimony and i thank, you mister chairman. Directing the yield back. I would like to remind the members of the public that section 60 103 of the tax code makes taxpayer information confidential, except in certain circumstances. One of those extensions is the process the ways and Means Committee used to receive testimony from these whistleblowers, and report transcripts of their testimony to the full house of representatives to make that information public. These whistleblowers have gone above and beyond to submit information to congress in accordance with the law, and we are grateful to them for that. The witnesses can only testify to Tax Information that has already been released through proper procedures through the wins it ways and Means Committee. That means in some incidents this they might have to declined to answer questions and instead submit Additional Information to the ways and Means Committee at a later date through the appropriate process. They are each accompanied by counsel to address questions that arise on section 6103, and are not present and are present today tonight i asked members to respect that process and requirements of section 6103, and look forward to hearing what our courageous witnesses have to say. Further, due to the complex nature of the matter at hand, each of the witnesses shall have ten minutes for their opening testimony. I would now like to introduce our witnesses. Mr. Joseph ziegler is a special agent with the Internal Revenue service, criminal investigation division, specifically assigned to the International Task financial crimes division. This is a group of 12 elite especially gents who are subject Matter Experts in complex International Tax and other related crimes. He started his career with the irs in 2010 as a special agent, and has developed successfully successfully completed a multitude of complex financial investigations. The types of investigations include Money Laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, health care fraud, violations of the bank secrecy act, income tax evasion, and income tax related charges, which is Identity Theft and violate false claims for income tax refund. Ziegler has won multiple performance awards throughout his career for recognition of his work. Mr. Gary shipley is the advisory special agent of the International Tax and financial crimes division. Shipley started his career in july of 2009. He was in the department of justice text vision from 2013 to 2018 investigating foreign institutions. Foreign financial institutions. He was also assigned to the joint Terrorism Task force working as a Task Force Officer at both the fbi washingtonville this, and the fbi baltimore field office. Mr. Shapley was promoted to supervisory special agent of the elite etf seat group in 2018. He also served as the assistant special assistant in charge of both the new York Field Office and chicago field office. I want to thank again both gentlemen for their willingness to come forward and share their testimony today for the members of this committee and for the American People. Pursuant to Committee Rule nine g, the witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . I do. I stepped forward, i believe that i am risking my career, my reputation, and my casework outside of investigation we are here to discuss. I, came to forward which were multiple times blowing the whistle in the Internal Revenue service. At the Internal Revenue service. No one should be above the law, regardless of your political investigation. I help viewed my role today in providing the facts as i best interest in the. To allow congress and the menstruation and the public to consider those facts, to consider the best path forward. I recognize as president in the start of instigation, and was closely involved in the embassys been probably five years. Climb just a part of the story. Others, including my colleague, supervisor gary shapley, here with me today, have their own he isnt understandings of what took place during this investigation. I have been an agent with the irs since 2010. In 2007 i received my undergraduate receipt degree from ohio university. Why mba from john carroll university. Upon starting my career at the irs, i worked at urged in young as an extra auditor. Throughout my career with the irs, i have worked a variety of successful criminal tax and Money Laundering investigations. In 2018, i transitioned into being a part of the International Tax of Financial Crimes Group out of the washington d. C. Crime office. I was a lead iris kates agent on the hunter biden investigation. I recently discovered that people are saying i must be more credible because im a democrat who happens to be married in a man. I am no more credible than this man sitting next to me due to my Sexual Orientation or my political beliefs. The truth is, my credibility comes today from my job the variance with the iris. And my intimate knowledge with the Agency Standards of and procedure. I have always striving to do what is right. I do have my supporters, others have said i am a traitor to the democratic party. Lamb causing more division in our society. I implore you to consider that if you were in my position with the fact that i stated them, ask yourself if you would be doing the exact same thing. I hope that i am an example to other lgbtq people out there who are questioning doing the right thing at the potential cost to themselves and others. We should always do the right thing, no matter how painful the process might be. I equate this to the experience and feeling zion countered when coming out. It was, honestly, one of the hardest things every went through. I contemplated a scenario that wouldve been highly regrettable. I did what was right. Im standing here in front of you today. I would first like to take a minute to thank people for their unfettered help and support. First of god, for giving me the strength and courage to get through this process. My husband, who has been my rock. Putting up with me, my stress, and hasnt had to deal with his own personal information being out there. My attorney, dean derby, who has agreed to represent me through this matter pro bono. Provided some much help. My colleague from the hunter biden investigation. The work that was done on the case is tremendous. But seems to be overshadowed by what is happening here today. I just want to say to the Investigative Team that i am thankful for having worked with you. I also want to thank my family and friends back home in northeast ohio. And georgia. I do not live in the d. C. Area. I had to fly here. Ive had to pay out of pocket for all of my travel related expenses in being a whistleblower. On that note, i would like to make another statement that i have not accepted a single payment from anyone for being a whistleblower. First, mister chairman, my written statement as well as my testimony before the ways and Means Committee i would like to touch on, briefly seven specific matters. First, in a recent letter to congress, mr. Weiss stated he had been granted ultimate authority over this matter. Later stated in the same letter that his charging authorities geographically limited he. Would need a President Biden appointed u. S. Attorney to chart of the case. Mr. Weiss stated he was making all decisions necessary to preserve the integrity of the prosecution consisting with federal law, the principles of federal prosecution and departmental regulation. The colonel manual chapter ten found on the doj website, tax division policy states that cases involving individuals who failed to file tax returns or pay a tax, but who also commit acts of evasion or obstruction, should be charged in felonies to avoid inequitable treatment. In early august of 2022 federal prosecutors from the department of justice to activision drafted a 99page memorandum. In so, they were recommending, for approval, felony and misdemeanor charges for the 20 1718, 19, tax year. That did not happen here. I am not sure why. As to the special agent on this case, i thought the felony charges were well supported. Considering the elements of a felony tax cases under the criminal code there are two key considerations. Well fanatics and tax owing. In the criminal context, wolf illness is defined voluntary intentional violation of unknown legal duty. The tax losses a monetary loss of the government. In early 2020, hunter biden on the filed and delinquent tax returns were being prepared, which included 2018 tax return. During the 2025 period, by Hunter Bidens own account, he was sober. Newly married. And writing his memoirs. Hunter bidens accounts requested that he signed a representation letter saying that all of the deductions were for business purposes. And were being reported appropriately. Statements the hunter biden made in his book completely contradicts and what he has reported it business deductions on his 2018 return. While riding his memoir, biden stated i hold up in the chateau for the first six weeks and learned how to crack. Hunter biden allegedly falsely claimed for business for payments made to the shelter moment, a hotel room for his supposed drug dealer, sixth membership. Falsely referenced on the wire at a golf membership. Hotels he was blacklisted from, a Columbia University tuition payment, for his adult daughter. All of these items were used in the willfulness element for felony tax evasion. These false deductions claim by hunter biden caused a false return to be repaired. On the reporting his total income by approximately 267,000. A loss to the u. S. Treasury of 106,000. Second, with respect to the 2014 tax year hunter biden not report any of the money he earned from the 2014 tax here which would have been a tax loss to the government of 124,000. According to my previous testimony, hunter biden did not report this income to the irs or pay tax on that source of income. There is nothing that i. C. E. In the public documents as the department of justices actions against hunter biden which indicate that hunter biden will be required to pay tax on this income from 2014. Or amend his 2014 tax return. I would like to know that the plea agreement, when released, may provide a great understanding. Third, i would like to make clear that the charging documents for the district of delaware hunter biden was charged with failure to timely pay his taxes for 2017 and 18 in excess of 100,000 for each tax year. On Hunter Bidens 2017 a 18 tax return, biden reported taxes owned of approximately 520,000 and 620,000 respectfully. This tax amount in 2018 would not have included the alleged additional tax owing from the filed false return of 106,000. Thus as i read the public documents at the department of justices actions against hunter biden there is nothing that indicates hunter biden will be required to amend his false tax return from 2018. If all stacks return that includes improper deductions for prostitutes, six clubs, and his Adult Childrens to asian. Again, perhaps when the plea agreement is released, it may provide us with a greater understanding. The decision to bring felony counts against hunter biden was agreed to by both prosecutors and investigators in the fall of 2021 i met with prosecutors assigned to the case. We all agreed and decide which charges we would recommend in the prosecution report which included felony counts related to 2017 and 18. In march of 2022 the prosecutors requested a discovery from the Investigative Team and present of the case of the d. C. U. S. Attorneys office. And later meetings in early august of 2022, the prosecutors, all four attorneys, agreed to recommend felony and misdemeanor charges for the 20 1718, and 19 tackler. Insofar as the department of Justice Tax Division attorney sent an email about the process of bringing charges to include felony and misdemeanor tax charges in two separate districts. Delaware in los angeles. Less than a month later, gary shaft leon i met with mr. Weiss. He stated that he agreed with us regarding the 2014 tax year misdemeanor and felony charges. That this could, somehow, a fight though later misdemeanor felony charges that he conveyed were stronger. Despite these facts, the plea deal that has been discussed occurred. To this day, i do not have a reason why that occurred. From my perspective, this might not have been problematic had the investigation been handled in the ordinary court. Fifth, as i previously testified and is contained in my written testimony, i outline for you some instances where assigned prosecutors did not appear to follow the normal investigative process, throughout the investigation, putting into place unnecessary approvals and roadblocks from effectively and efficiently investigating the case. A number of times we were not able to follow the facts. Im happy to respond to questions regarding this event. Sixth, i will also note that the impression have been conveyed from the u. S. Attorney of delaware that he is similar powers to those of his Better Council in this case, free reign to do as needed, that is not the case. It appeared to me, based on what i experienced, that the u. S. Attorney in delaware, in our investigation with limited and hamstrung by doj officials as well as other u. S. Attorneys. I still think that a special counsel is necessary for this investigation. To further handle ancillary investigations that are spun off and relate to hunter biden but may not have the new in delaware. I lastly would like to conclude, again, by Encouraging Congress and the administration to consider establishing an official channel for investigators to pull emergency cord and raise the issue of the appointment of a special counsel for consideration by senior officials. I do not want like all leagues at the irs, fbi, in other federal Law Enforcement agencies to go through my frustrating journey. To go through my frustrating journey, and that of our team. I remain that such a path will strengthen the Public Confidence in their institution. In the fair and equal treatment of all americans under the law. Thank, you i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. The chair now recognizes mr. Sattley for his Opening Statement. Thank you for inviting me to testify here today. I want to thank every member from both sides of the aisle who work to represent your constituents and to hold government accountable. A name is gary shipley. I worked with a special agent for the irs criminalization for 14 years. I recently became a senior leader. And in the International Crimes group. I work directly with the United States attorney in multiple districts. I have supervised investigated cases were more than a dozen u. S. Attorney offices were across a country. I have led, planned, or executed undercover operations and search warrants under and other countries. I have investigated manage some of the largest cases in the history of the agency. We are covering more than three above a billion for United States taxpayer. In this country we believe in the rule of law. That applies to everyone. There should not be a two track just a system depending on who you are and who are your connected to. In this case, there was. Based on my experience i will tell you that at the u. S. Department handling the hunter biden tax investigation, it was very different than any other case than my 14 years in the irs. At every stage, decisions were made that benefited the subject of this investigation. For example, prosecutors conceal the contents of Hunter Bidens laptop from investigators. Doj slow walked interviews and executing search warrants. Warrants that were ready as early as april of 2020 but were delayed until after the november 2020 election. Never pursued after that. Investigators were not allowed to follow up on what messages from Hunter Bidens apple icloud backup. Where he suggested he was sitting next to his father. Since the United States attorney, leslie, wolf executed a search warrant of President Bidens residents, a designing fighter for not allowing it even though she agree that probable cause existed. Prosecutors instructed investigators not to ask about the big guy, or dad, when conducting interviews. The team was ticked off about interviews the night the investigation went over. The fact that the fbi counterpart confirmed to this committee in recent testimony where a result was only one witness spoke to investigators that day. These are just. Some of the examples of how our investigation was stymied. Climb not here to support partisan agendas on either side. Im here because our tax system relies on the American People having confidence that it is administered fairly and equally for everyone. And the political connection. The handling of this case was inappropriate. It didnt happen whether it happened under a republican or democratic administration. Whether you concern about the ethical slow walking and preferential treatment in this case. They are true and correct to the best of my ability. Unfortunately already handled by some members in the media which did and measurable damage to a community of whistleblowers. I am confident and falsely accused of being a liar, or both. All by people who know nothing about me or the facts of this case. Some question effect should even be called the whistleblower. Suggesting the law we have seen the shoe on the other foot before. Some republicans made the same error. They have plenty of blame for both sides. The cycle of villainizing or canonizing employee report what they believe is wrong has to stop. When i first started noticing deviation from the normal investigative process around june 2020, that did not run to congress to air grievances. Instead i documented my concerns trying to benefit prosecutors for a very long time. The prosecutor from the end of 2021, the irs recommended charging hunter biden was several felonies and misdemeanors for the tanks you 2014 to 2019. Delaware District Attorneys and taxable trial attorneys supported charging the felonies and misdemeanors listed in exhibit two of my interview transcript from page 44 and 45. Officially referred to the department of justice in february, 2022. This case was presented this was presented in around march of 2022 attorney general merrick darling with us how confident the American People be investigating the president s own son . President garland responded by saying, we put the investigation in the hands of a trump appointee. He led congress to believe thats a case was insulated from improper political influence because all decisions were being made exclusively by delaware state attorney, weiss. That was not true. The Justice Department allowed the president political point of used to weigh in on whether to charge the president s on. Attorney for d. C. , matthew graves, appointed by President Biden, refused to bring charges of march of 2022. I watch the United States attorney weiss teller roomful of senior fbi and iris leaders on october 7th, 2022, that he was not the deciding person on where the charges were filed. That was my red line. I dont have seen a pattern now weiss was admitting that what the units of people believe based on the attorney general stamos falls. I could not learn stay silent. In november 2022 the statute of limitations was set to expire for the 2014 in 2015 charges in d. C. Which included the 2014 felonies for the attempt to evade fraud or false statements involving income earned by hunter biden in those years. A statute of limitations have been extended by 20 agreement with hunter biden defense council. They were willing to extend it past november 2022. Weiss allowed those to expire. Prosecutors presented the 2017, 2018, 2019 criminal tax charges to the central digit of california and september 2022, only after President Bidens nominee, mark estrada, was confirmed. In january of this year i learned that estrada had declined to bring the charges. For all intents and purposes, the case was dead except for one lone charges could be brought in delaware. Yeah when senator joe grassley asked attorney general Merrick Garland in 2023 garland testified the United States attorney has been advised they have full authority to make the roads you are talking about when to bring cases in other districts when he needs to do that he should be advised that he should get anything he need. After the october seven redline meeting, there was no way to reconcile attorney general weisss statement, his offices actions, with attorney general garlands public testimony. It i am 100 present service that the delaware Political Office so approval from the democratic nominees. New york times reported that independently charges in california. Plenty of other witnesses are familiar with the facts, in addition to those who witnessed attorney general weisss private emission. I encourage them to step forward and tell the truth about what happened in what they heard. Let me be clear, although these facts contradict attorney general garlands testimony in raise very problems for his. I never claimed to have evidence that attorney general garland knowingly lied to congress. Whether attorney general garland knew his testimony was false is for you in the Inspector General to determine, not me. The same is true for United States whys attorney is for others to investigate. To determine whether those letters contain knowingly false statements. However, it is clear that the United States attorney general weisss story to the American Public had evolved. He has gone from unequivocaly echoing attorney general garland to, just one month later, corroborating the disclosure that we made. Why some firsts that he could charge anywhere. Then, he admitted that he is geographically limited. To go beyond those limits, why slater emitted that he had to partner and get special authority. Garland said that wife has the authority. The United States attorney weiss said he has been assured he would get the authority. If you never requested or denied special authority from attorney general garland, as he told us on october 7th, the American Public tour why 2014 2015 dc charges to expire. No number of carefully warded denials or evolving half truth can overshadow the stark fact. United states attorney weiss and garland will each be sitting before these committees one day. They will have to admit that despite all of the obfuscation, the absolute fact was this case was presented president ial e appointed u. S. Attorneys in california they will tell you everything that you need to know. I do not claim to be privy to United States attorney weisss or Merrick Garlands communication. But weiss told us that he was not the deciding person. He had requested but was denied special authority after d. C. Decline charges. If california declines, he would have to request a special authority again. I understood the gravity of those admissions. With the full mission live with weiss or attorney general garland, for Congress Early 20 general, it is ultimately for the public to decide. Undecided after october 7th to come forward. I began researching whistleblower tierneys. I wanted to abide by the law in every way at the navigating the complex the whistleblower process was followed to the lover with the life of council at every step. I am fortunate to be represented by marc lyle, fraternal prosecutor for 25 years. Including five years for the department of justice tax evasion. Im also grateful the power of oversight, a nonprofit Whistleblower Group whose president , christian levant, with previously nominated by President Biden in the american system protection board and unanimously confirmed by the United States senate. Some have tried to paint me with a brush while employees and former staffers and gop members from capitol hill their expertise developed working for the patron saint whistleblower center, Chuck Grassley, it has been invaluable. Meanwhile, the biden family attorneys appear to be representing hunter biden, President Biden, and the department of justice. They are not working for free. It has been reported in Public Services that they are large fund of her biden family attorney. The source of those funds are unknown. They have virtually unlimited resources to pursue their agenda. While my motives for questions simply for finding competent representation from a small nonprofit to help whistleblowers. Troops arches empower oversight were only path to ensure whistleblowers like me are heard and receive confident advice. My intention was not to be your sole source of information. I implore you to take the necessary steps to obtain as much evidence of possible from as many sources as possible to be able to fully inform your conclusion. Im confident that you have done that, and both sides will find serious interview problems with the hunter biden investigation that closely aligned with my testimony. No matter your party, i am not your opposition. I am here with information for you to examine and investigate. To determine if more action is warranted on the report. I am on your team, whether we agree on every politically sensitive issue or not. There is no benefit for me blowing the whistle in this case, absolutely none. I have no book deal. The only money that goes into my bank account every two weeks from my employment or the federal government. I am still a supervisor leading 12 fantastic agents working complex International Best occasions. Oh fortunately to this day, my immediate supervisors or retaliating against me for making disclosures. Last, fall of the biden family attorneys attacked the investigators in the pages of the washington post. Threatening prosecutors with career suicide if they brought charges against the president some. One of the biden family attorneys then sent the press a ten page, it will field, letter attacking me with innuendo, fall statements, and baseless speculations that i had leaked information to the washington post. These statements by the biden family attorneys are false. In conclusion, the American People for whom this body works, i implore you to look at the facts. Not agenda leased statements from either side of the aisle. Im the average american citizen who worries about how i will send my kids to college and if i will ever have enough money to retire, just like most people watching today. I am the first person in my family or college. It was not and i lead school. I do not have a network of rich and powerful friends down the weather the storm through retaliation in characters rca shun. I am putting myself at risk for the American People who support me, and for those who do. Not at the end of the day i am just a small town kid from norwich, new york. I worked hard to get where i am. I will never compromise my integrity. I will never forget who i am, where i come, from all the people in my life have made me who i am today. Thank you all for your time. Thank, you both, for those excellent Opening Statements. We will now begin the questioning phase. I will begin the questioning. We will start with mr. Ziegler. Here on the committee we focus on following the evidence. Specifically, the money trail through bank records and suspicious activity. I want to discuss with you specific payments made to hunter biden, and the biden family. Democrats and left wing media also say they are so lets get into the evidence, mr. Think. Where i want to address pages 90 9 am 100 of your transcript. How much money did hunter byline in his associates received from the remaining company you identified . That amount would be, from romania, the approximate total transfers from the Romania Company would have been 3. 1 million. How much did hunter violin and his associates received from state energy hklimited through the llc . Total transfer from state energy hk from ralph walker with 3 million. Was there a 100,000 dollar payment from cfc infrastructure to hunter biden professional corporation . Yes, chairman. Approximately how much was transferred from a hunter biden Business Associates through the hudson and west three . The total transfer from hudson west to everyone was 3. 7 million. How much money did hunter biden in his Business Associates received from the ukrainian company, burisma . They paid everyone involved 6. 5 million. They also paid Blue Star Strategies and a law firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. Bringing the total burisma payments to over 7 million. Is that correct . That is correct. 7. 3 million. Between 2014 in 2019 this brings a total amount of foreign income streams receive to approximately 70 million, correct . That is correct. What was the purpose of analyzing money from foreign sources . Do you have documents to support your findings . So, the purpose of documenting the foreign sources is we, as part of a normal International Tax investigation, we have to figure out where the money is coming from. We have to follow the money trail. As part of that process we have to follow different transactions. Identify different entities that may be paying a person. We go and get those records. Right . So, hopefully you can provide that to the committee. Yes. Any records regarding those transactions we love evidence on this side of the aisle. On page 80 of your transcript you identified other bynum family members who received relevant payments the investigation. Such as, grandchildren. Could you explain why you wanted to interview them . So, as a part of the investigation you want to interview people who might have received money. People who might have had deductions that were deducted on their tax returns. There are a multitude of reasons why you may want to talk to family members. Is the common for grandchildren to receive money from foreign nationals . Significant business wires . I dont know the reason, i did not know what is behind any of the payments that might have been made to specific family members. I can speak to what was paid. What within our transcript. I would advise immediate today to review the committees bank records memorandum. A closely matches the iris we will have a supplemental memorandum discussing payments from ukraine, russia, and other sources very soon. Based on bank records that we have recently received but have not disclosed yet. Sir, you have confirmed for me what ive been saying all along. The committee has accomplished in five months what it took the department of justice five used to figure out. Mr. Shipley, i want to discuss certain executive steps that you said wouldve led to President Biden. Can you discuss what steps he wanted to take what you could . And there were multiple instances in this investigation where there are references to the father of the subject, President Biden. In the course of any normal investigation when the subjects father is somehow related to the finances of the subject, in the normal course of any investigation, we would have to go and get that information too properly that the financial flows of money in that investigation to determine what we end up charging. There was a tweet, a message, in the laptop from hunter biden to kevins dawn, who was with cfc. It said, quote, the bidens are the best i know and doing exactly what the chairman wants from this partnership. Now, the chairman he is referring to is chairman ye of cmc. Is that correct . And that stream i believe so, yes. Can you tell me what the bidens are best that . Do you understand what he wouldve meant by that . This is a chinese company. I think the Ranking Member referred to it the same and to that paid the money that he was indicted for being an unregistered Foreign Agent, i believe that is the charge. This is a another solicitation from hunter biden. He refers to the bidens, floral. They are best doing what the chairman wants. I think that is very concerning to our committee. This is a Chinese Communist party owned entity. This is of concern to our National Security. I didnt know, in closing, if you had any information with respect to that comment there . That message is something we clearly need to follow up on. That was really one of the major deviations in this case. Investigators, its specially mister ziegler, hoping to take some investigative steps to review that. Its simply was not supported by the prosecutors. Further delving into what that means, i simply cannot do. I can promise you we are not stop on this committee until we understand what he fully meant by that message to a Chinese Communist party official. Mister chairman, may i Say Something on that . Yes, please. Thank you for that question. There was a long watch that message contained in that. That was only a portion of it. What we can do, what we can go back, we can turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee. They can vote to release. At that information can be available for you. Thank you, thank you very much. I now yield to Ranking Member ashton. Thank, you mister chairman. I want to thank both of the witnesses for their testimony of her appearing here with us today. It seems to me that a lot of your testimony has been about the problem of prosecutorial discretion, in the traditional tug of war between investigators who, characteristically, want to charge as many events as they come across, and prosecutors, who are more attuned to the rigors of the courtroom and the complexity of forensic evidence. I admit, as a former state assistant attorney general, i see it more from a prosecutor standpoint then the investigator standpoint. Mr. Shapley, what would you can see that there are a lot of crimes that are investigated by both theaters that are not actually charged by prosecutors, routinely . I will give you an example, and the recent indictment of donald trump for retaining government documents that he unlawfully took, according to the indictment, he was charged, only, with the thing those documents that were recovered after the august 22 search warrant. He had hundreds of documents that were recovered before that. 15 boxes that were recovered in january and then after the granburys opinion jean. Prosecutors decided not to charge any of those offenses. They said they would take the most egregious offenses and charged of. Is that a familiar to you . That kind of decision by prosecutor . I cannot speak to anything related to the trump investigation, but, the issue here with this case is it wasnt just investigators who agreed with the charges. In exhibit two of my testimony it clearly shows the prosecutors recommendation report where it says, right in the document, the United States attorneys and the department of justice agree with those recommended charges. Then, again, special agent ziegler alluded to in late 2022 they were recommended to whom . The prosecution is referred to the hack division for approval, and discretion, or declination. Right. It all went to the u. S. Attorney in delaware, right . So, that is not entirely accurate. The department of Justice Tax Division, up through march 16th of 2023, had not yet approved provided discretion or decline charges. U. S. Attorney weiss had no authority to charge any of those charges without the department of justice text divisions approval beforehand. I would like to focus in on this real quick. Eric let me get back to you because i have a limited amount of time. And you have questions for you. In fact, mr. Ziegler, you state that Hunter Bidens unpaid taxes were around 2 million. He has no pay the best taxes, as i understand. It he has been criminally charge for not paying taxes. Would you just explain how people can be charged for not paying taxes even after they have made amends and gone on to pay . Them under the statute, when someone fails to timely pay the taxes, usually do april 15th, once that date occurs if they have a known Tax Liability and they failed to pay, the crime has already been committed. The fact that they pay the taxes after, that is a mitigating factor that the judge can use their discretion at sentencing. I would like to make one thing clear, this does not include the over 100,000 in additional tax owing which was not charged. The images of clear. You thought there were additional charges that relate on the table and not pursued by the u. S. Attorney weiss, a trump appointee. But mr. Shapley you testified with a critical moment in your decision to blow the whistle in the hunter biden investigation. The october 7th meeting, 2022, or that you had with u. S. Attorney, david weiss. Up to that point he said you are willing to talk up the differences with prosecutors to the typical, quote, investigator versus prosecutor type thing. Which is what i think this is all about. You see on page 28th of a transcript, if i wasnt in the october 7th meeting, my red line might not have been crossed. Something, i think, he reaffirmed today. As i understand, it crossing the red line is in that meeting you understood mr. Wexner saying that he did not have the authority to bring charges in d. C. Or california without the approval of the u. S. Attorneys for those districts. Is that correct . Yes. In a letter that he sent to chairman jordan in june, u. S. Attorney weiss stated, and i quote, i have been granted alternate 30 over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where, when, and whether to file charges. He won on to explain that considering charges in the district outside delaware, the usual doj practice will be, quote, contact the u. S. Attorneys office for the district in question. To determine whether it wants to charge the case. If that office declines he would request the authority to bring the charges himself under, quote, special attorney status from the attorney general pursuant to 28 usc section 5 18. To try to clear this up, mr. Shabbily, lets go back to march 2022. You explained in march the u. S. Attorney for d. C. Declined to partner with mr. Weiss to bring the 2014 in 2015 charges in d. C. After that decision by the u. S. Attorney for d. C. Mr. Weiss continued to discuss those charges with all of you. In fact, mr. Ziegler, on page 3900 transcribe you describe how in september of 2022 you had a meeting in which u. S. Attorney weiss expressed some concerns about those charges, including that in 2015 hunter biden was in the throes of his drug addiction out of the death of his brother. In that meeting, mr. Weiss told you, and i quote, i am still weighing in. Mr. Ziegler, in september of 2022, mr. Weiss was telling you that he was the one weighing whether to bring the 2014 and 2015 charges. Is that correct . That is correct. Coming back to october 7th 2022, mr. Shabbily, according to your testimony on page 125 quote, he decided not to charge 2014 2015. It seems to me that this october 7th 2022 meeting, which you have described as a red line, its just a misunderstanding. That after the u. S. Attorney in d. C. Declined a partner on the 14 or 15 charges, mr. Weiss took a good hard look at those charges himself. He ultimately decided not to charge them. Therefore, not to seek the special attorney status. He may have been right about that. He may have been wrong, you guys make your case for it. But, it was his decision. Isnt that right, mr. Shapley . No, that is not supported by the facts. Really. Which fact is that not supported . By his old emission in a meeting which i documentary contemporaneously. But he contradicts what you are saying. He does not agree with what you were saying about the meeting. I was not at that october 7th 2022 meeting. What was said at the meeting over two and a half years ago maybe a little ambiguous are unclear today. Mr. Weisss letter to chairman jordan could not be more clear. He says, quote, ultimate authority over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where, when, and whether to file charges. So, if there is any ambiguity, it has to go to u. S. Attorney weiss, Donald Trumps handpicked u. S. Attorney for delaware. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We now recognize chairman smith. Can i Say Something real quick on that. I have two things i wanted to bring up. So, there are a lot of different tax cases out there that include misdemeanors and felonies. There are a lot of reasons why we charge the felony. We might charge the misdemeanor i want to be. Clear on this thing when you have a felony charged with a misdemeanor that you have to charge a felony. In this case, they did not charge a felony. There is one more point to this. We had a meeting with all excuse, me when you say you have to charge a felony, is that the department of justice rule youre saying . Its in their manual, they have to charge the felony in order to avoid an equitable treatment of tasha perez. Whether or not the evidence supports, it thats a part of that. Its in that analysis. Whether the evidence that goes back to the point of, the certains actions that were taken, the certain deductions that were taken on the tax return, thats for you to decide whether the felony was there or not. The point is, thats for the u. S. Attorney to decide. Im afraid were not going to be able to investigate every tax case recognizes mr. Smith from missouri. Thank you mister chairman, mr. Ziegler, i want to thank you both again for your testimony, your willingness to come forward and tell the truth for the American Public. I apologize of the behavior of some of our colleagues and how the press has treated you. For doing what is right for the American People, so they could see. It mr. Shabbily, included in the document you provided, the ways and Means Committee, its a document labeled exhibit two, in the transcript of your testimony, which is a portion of a special agent report, this document is located following page 41 of the transcript, this one, what is this document . What recommendations are made in this document . Yes, this is the prosecution recommendation report. The cia agents produced at the end of the investigation. Theyre going to recommend prosecution to the parliament of justice. This is all through by special agents ziegler. Its a robust document. Theres several thousand pages. The facts in the elements in this particular report, the elements of each viable meets that [inaudible] recommended felony charges for 2019, 2018. Misdemeanor charges for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019. It further shows that, especially agents, ziegler spoke with prosecutors and work handinhand with prosecutors while this was being drafted, they clearly agreed that the violations were met. They supported this document. When it was sent, to the Department Said it for approval on up what level of confidence does the irs need to have the recommended to charges like the felony counts listed in this document . So, each violation, each element listed in the report, evidence is shown underneath each of it. This report goes through internal departments. Criminal investigations. In addition to the prosecutors agreeing, the evidence supported charging felony counts, the Senior Leadership of the director of the operations, the irs operations, they personally review this report and approved it to the department of justice division. Were you surprised that on june 20th 2023, prosecutors announced a plea agreement with hunter biden under which he would only plead guilty to violations of two misdemeanor charges . So, the guilty plea is outside of my control. What i can say, its not one investigator thought, especially its not what is ziegler or i thought the felony charges were proven. The prosecutors again and again agreed with that assessment. Attorney general im sorry, United States attorney white also agreed with these. He went to the d. C. U. S. Attorney to ask him to partner. You dont ask someone to partner with you if you dont yourself agree with the charges. When he got denied, he requested special authority, it was declined on the 2022 meeting. We in the report that we just had it states in there that even leslie wolf had agreed with these charges. The assistant prosecutor. Mr. Ziegler, on page 32 of the transcript of your testimony you discussed the need to interview Hunter Bidens children will regarding deductions you listed included on his tax return. Leslie wolf told you that you would get into hot water if contributed the president s grandchildren. In other cases that youve worked over your career have you ever had a prosecutor tell you that you couldnt interview a relevant witness . There are certain things that come into whether we talk to a witness or not. If they are an attorney if they are in some special situation that might come up it, might cause caution to interviewing that witness. I have never been told that we couldnt approach someone to interview them as a part of an investigation. Yeah, there are certain situations to where you have to do a further analysis of the information you might get. Like i, said if they are an attorney. Yes, in this case, we needed to talk to witnesses related to things that were deducted on the tax return. In this case it was the Adult Children that we needed to talk to. Thank, you mister chairman, my time is expired. The chair now recognizes law from illinois. Thank you mister shabbily, thank you mr. Ziegler for your services to this country. Rhea preshow you coming here and appearing in this capacity. First of, all mr. Ziegler, i see at page 12 of your transcript you start laying out a series of concerns that you had with regard to various people and various issues related to investigation. They say, quote, i started the investigation in 2018 after interviewing bank deposits. And then you letter say irs staff were not supported of starting the investigation. In 2018, joe biden is not the president. Joe biden was not the president , correct. Page 20, you lay out another concern. You had a concern about bill barr. Attorney general bill barr consolidating a series of cases into the u. S. Attorneys office in delaware. At that point, and he said, quote, what was the potential issue with working the case in delaware. We were working with a small u. S. Attorneys office who might not have ever worked a case of this caliber. Bill barr was appointed by donald trump, correct . We yes, that is correct. Let me turn to another concern you lay out in your testimony. You are concerned about the quality of the prosecutors on page 14. You say, quote, the prosecutors were the j. B. Squad. They werent up to the task of handling such a big case. Now, sir, u. S. Attorney white was also appointed by donald trump, right . As far as the actual nomination and what went into why im not asking you why. Im saying, it was appointed by donald trump, correct . That is. Correct now, another concern you lay out in your deposition. Page 21. You talk about your concerns about this investigation having been made over, being publicized. You said, quote, one of the first disagreements i had was the idea of going public. Now, sir, 2019, joe biden was not the president then. I did not thats not my question. In march, april of 2019, correct . Now, mr. Shabbily, let me turn to you for second here. You also raise a series of concerns in your deposition transcript. You said, you are concerned about the complexities of the election cycle. The potential delays that arose in connection with the election cycle. You said page 23 i remember there were always times where we were always on an impending election cycle. It was always the election being brought up in early 2020. It was a president ial primary. Joe biden was not the president at that time either. ,. Their decisions by the prosecution. It turns out that the delay in the election cycle was happening at a time when joe biden was not the president. That special agent zieglers. Mr. Ziegler and you shared concerns about delays related. At that time, joe biden was not the president. He was the nominee. He was not the president was he . Its a simple question. Can you rephrase . Joe biden was not the president. And the president ial primary in 2020. That is correct and mr. Shabbily you said that warrants for ready as soon as april 2022 began searching for records. Actions werent taken with regard to those warrants. Again, joe biden was not the president in april 2020, was he . Im confused by the line of questioning. Now President Biden was a part of it. He didnt have to be the president s to have election meddling. The question is this. Was he the president at that time . April 2020. Its been asked and answered. The answer . Is no. Thank you. I yield back. Please, you may answer the question. Its clear that he was not the president. An election is for the purpose of electing a president. Joe biden at the time was a nominee for president of the United States. Therefore, the election we are in effect, it wasnt until september 24th of 2020 that the department of justice Public Integrity so that we can no longer take any actions on that case. As early as april as early as april, april to june of 2020, the department of justice in the u. S. Attorneys office was evoking the election as a reason to not form those. The time is expired. We have a lot of questions. The chair now recognizes jordan of ohio. Thank, you mister chairman, last night they might send me two letters. The first letter on june 7th. He said, i have been granted ultimate authority over the matter including responsibility for indicting where, when and, whether to file charges. Later that same month he sent me the second letter. He said no, i dont. No, i dont i dont have that charging authority. He says im the boss, i can do whatever i want and wherever i want. He says no, i cant. What happened in between those . Your testimony went public. He goes, oh, my goodness i have to change my story. Now the truth is coming out. It sounds like in this investigation, to me, mr. Shabbily, that the prosecutors in the investigators were in agreement for most of the investigation. And then we get to october of 2022. Mr. Ziegler. That meeting is where david whyte told you something. What did he say . What did he say. He told me he was not the deciding person when that charge was filed. He told me that the d. C. Attorney is allowed he said that he requested and denied that. That is correct. Were you the only guy in that meeting . How many of the people . Where there are seven total people. You and mr. Wright and five others. Did any of them come forward and say what you just said is not true . They have not. No one has, right . No one is refuting no one said what you said is not true and did you memorialize what took place in that meeting . Did you memorialize that. When i return home from the u. S. Attorneys office i put it in an email to the soon to senior tight at my agency you put it in an email that day i got the email. Its in your testimony when youre interviewed by the ways and Means Committee october 7th friday 609 pm. Thats correct then to mr. Walden and bad or . Hes the director of Field Operations for their Southern Division he was the special agent in charge of the washington d. C. Office did mr. Walden get back to you. Do you remember he said . He said you covered it all he didnt say thanks but youre wrong thats not what happened he affirmed what you said. You covered all you laid it out. Just what you tell me a few moments ago. What mr. Wright told you in that meeting. When that goes public on june 22nd last month, mr. Wright says oh, i have got to change my story. I better send a letter to the judiciary committee. He said i stand by what i wrote. I will expand. I wish to fix it. And then he had to further go when he talked to, when he said a letter to senator graham, he said to clarify again, theyve changed their story. You guys have not. What do you think happened . Mr. Weiss was consistent with the investigators up into this october 7th meeting. He changed it. What do you think happened . I mean, i dont know what happened. What i can say is that the story has been changing from the department of justice and u. S. Attorney weiss, the only person that had any documents that have been corroborated on my own. I think thats what happened. I think its obvious. Anyones common sense can see it. He said it in mr. Grahams letter. He said i had discussions with the main justice. I had discussions with the big guys. The attorney general. I dont know who it was. He had discussions with people of justice. Suddenly things changed. That all became evident on october 7th. Until october 7th, the investigators, the investigators and the prosecutors, they were in agreement. Here are the facts. Heres how we do it. Heres how weve always done it. We have the two best agents in the place and on the case. Lets go. And then she is am. Something changes. I think its what mr. White conveyed. We had conduct discussions. We dont know what those discussions were. It looks pretty obvious what happened. It looks pretty obvious. Iran was pounding their chest. David whyte has complete authority. And now he doesnt. He doesnt. You guys came forward. You told the truth. I yield back. The chair now recognizes mr. Lynch from massachusetts. Thank, you mister chairman i want to thank the witnesses for their willingness to work with the committee. I am surprised. There seems to be a new level of hypocrisy here. As a longstanding member of this committee, i think most of the members who have served a long time here know full well what political interference and what sweetheart deals look like. I think context is very important in 2017. We had a situation where former National Security advisers and Trump Campaign surrogates Michael Flynn was indicted and then by the federal jury he bed guilty twice here is the National Security adviser for 22 days. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle had no interest. They had zero interest, in response, the president at the time President Trump repeatedly and publicly attacked the case and the agents who brought it including by claiming mr. Flynn was the victim of a quote unquote dirty, filthy coughs at the top of the fbi. Close quote. He also described the prosecution as a disgrace. Claims that those who investigated mr. Flynn were guilty of reason. Those were public statements. Attacking the fbi. Despite the fact that mr. Flynn pleaded guilty twice to lying to the fbi, President Trumps attorney general william barr personally intervened in the case and that Led Department of justice to abruptly reversed course and have the case dismissed. On grounds that a federal judge found dubious to say the least. Thats a quote from the judge. The trump associate and adviser roger stone, a federal jury found him guilty a congressional investigation into russian interference. The 2016 president ial election. By lying to congress. In response, a sitting president , President Trump immediately took to twitter. Attacking the department of justice. And playing a quote double standard and committing a quote, miscarriage of justice. President trump also publicly attack to the department sentencing recommendation for mr. Stone, leaving senior officials to overrule the federal prosecutors who had investigated and brought the case. This blatant political intervention, not complains at all by my republican colleagues at the time. It caused those prosecutors, some of, them to resign and withdraw from the case. President trump even congratulated former attorney general barr for interfering. That is what political intervention looks like. We know it on this committee. Paul manafort who worked to elect a prokremlin president in ukraine. Was convicted in 2018 of bank and tax fraud. Ultimately pleading guilty against the United States. Obstructing justice. President trump deemed it, quote, a very sad day for our country. In terms of sweetheart deals, and december of 2020, at the end of his term, President Trump granted full pardon to his close allies. Flynn, stone, manafort, allowing them to escape accountability for their numerous crimes. Now, that is a sweetheart deal. They got away with everything. Not by hunter biden, pleading guilty, such as the reputational damage an embarrassment to his family, the widely publicized facts of his drug addiction, and this was a trump appointed u. S. Attorney. They prosecuted this for four years. President biden did not seem to remove him. It happens when a new president comes into office. Mister chairman, i yield back. Im going to simplify this for the American People. We are here today because our institutions are broken. The doj, the fbi, the irs has transformed from a balance apparatus of justice and the political weapon of the left. A process that i believe began during the obama administration. They actively pursued individuals based on their beliefs targeting donald trump. They pose a significant threat. Upon his election, the bureaucratic resistance didnt stop. They are hatred for trump permeated fruit there were. Attempting to cripple. For the last 30 months the doj and the fbi and the irs have work to not only protect the criminal actions of the biden family, to continue persecuting President Trump. Some describe this as a two tier system. What it really is, its a system deliberately and systematically prosecuting individuals within trump orbit due to their hatred for President Trump. Simultaneously, they cover up the crimes of the current president and members of his family well issuing select indictments against trump. Today we are joined by two whistleblowers. They are in the doj they are stepping forward now between the 22 elections, they have the House Majority its a subpoena power. Theres gavels in hand. We now present crucial evidence into the investigation. The American People could be as plain as day, the corruption, bribery and we are here to do the job. The doj and the refused to do they have failed to fulfill their duties. Theyre International Bribery scream which is 1 Million Dollar payout. I want to thank you both for coming forward. I cant imagine how difficult the skin on you and your family. I think the best used of my time is to help simplify the complex schemes for the American People. Help do the job that doj and iris in the fbi they refused to do. We talk about china. We talk about romania. Ukraine, it all seems complicated. This was born in 2014 in ukraine and then replicated in other countries. Ukraine is the proof of concept. This is a scheme. A foreign client has a problem. The Vice President travels to the country the Vice President leverages u. S. Influence to force a favorable outcome for the client well and the biden family earns the fee and that is the team and that is the scheme so lets just start with ukraine so i can show you of timelines burisma has a problem they cant get the stop listed the prosecutor general is investigating corruption and they cant get the outcome they want to new york and so what did they do they hire hunter biden. Mr. Ziegler, can i direct you to page nine. Hunter biden received millions of dollars . That would be accurate. Thank you. The American People, i want to point out briefly that hunter biden has qualifications are in business in general. He does have the big guy. November 2nd 2015,. An email to hunter. Burisma executive is demanding highlevel officials. This was in an email obtained from Hunter Bidens laptop. Hunter biden confirms. Vice President Biden is coming december 7th through ninth biden has officially visited uae u. S. Tax dollars for to withhold he lied about this during the campaign. He specifically said it wasnt true. Sir enough if you have any questions about whether he buys them, generate 23rd of 2018 he brags about it years later. Ladies and gentlemen, the American People, thats the scheme. That is the proof of concept. They replicated it again and again because they never thought biden would be president. No one did he is our president. And because of his, actions because of him selling policy decisions to adversaries abroad for personal gain, he is vulnerable. He is vulnerable. Its a vulnerable cause of it. We are not here to prosecute hunter biden. We care about our countrys National Security and whether the president can compromise. Thats why we are here. Thats why were here. With that, i yield back. The chair recognizes carlee from virginia. Thank you, mister chairman, thank you both for being here today. My friend from South Carolina says he was going to simplify for the American People. I think he succeeded. So simple it has to be unrecognizable. If youre going to talk about ukraine and burisma, lets remember that president not joe biden, not was impeached. Over a phone call. The president of ukraine wanting to get dirt on this very individual with this very company. And withheld military equipment as we now know including javelin symbols. Its very useful and antitech warfare to get it. Quite correctly. My friends on the other side of the aisle, they voted against that. They had no problems with that kind of interference. It directly affected National Security. Mr. Shipley and mr. Ziegler, you both have decided about the fact that youve been subject to criticism and ridicule and public disclosure. Menacing comments because you come forward. Is that correct . Medicine . Comments menacing comments. Menacing comments. Yes, sir. Youtube, mr. Ziegler. Whoever does that, i think he would both agree. Its doing a disservice to the country into you individually. You are simply doing your dirty as you see the light. Fair enough . Yes. Mr. Ziegler . I am doing my duty. Can you imagine how the District Attorney in Fulton County georgia must feel. The District Attorney in manhattan must feel . Or the special counsel of the department of justice must feel. When the very subject of an indictment or intending indictment takes to public rally and ridicules them by name, disparages them right name, characterizes them by name, putting them and the families at the same riskier experiencing. If its wrong for these anonymous people to criticize you it must certainly be wrong the former president of the United States would demonize people you can disagree if their judgment. Its not right to disparage their character. Whats so ironic about this hearing, again, not one mansion on the other side of the aisle. That malign behavior by the very subject of the indictment. Speaking of interference, the American People know President Trump pressured the Justice Department which we are talking about here today. When that be wrong or cemented that . When he handpicked william barr he is reducing the sentencing for roger stone and glossed over Robert Mueller as eight for eight saying it exonerated the president when in fact Robert Mueller specifically said no it did not. And listed ten specific items of the obstruction of justice he recommended be pursued and pointed out unless we misunderstand the part according to doj guidelines. He said in his report, when he left office he might want to pursue it. In the New York Times the former President Trump explicitly told the chief of staff john kelly that they, quote, ought to investigate and get the iris on for civil service, and considers the political enemy. Explicit testimony from his own chief of staff. Again, absolute from the other side of the aisle. Including from the ways and Means Committee, its so concerning about any thing with any interference of any political entity or individual over the pristine work at the department of justice and the iris. An agency, i might, add another piece of irony in this area, it has been disparaged as the hobnob boots on the neck of the taxpayer for so long by the majority. And then resources by the majority as we speak. They had 24 billion dollars in the agreement out of the 80 billion weve provided to give you more resources to do your job. I yield back. The gentleman yields back, we are going to have two more questions at the request of the witnesses at every 90 minute mark. We will take a ten minute bathroom resists. We will recognize the next two questions and then go to that right now. The chair recognizes representative turner from ohio for five minutes. The gentlemen thank you for being here, i appreciate your courage i, appreciate your dedication of the truth and your obligation. Surprisingly, my question about your testimony is to why were here and were working on a shift to talk about what you are here for. Im going to different spots of your testimony. I dont think youll have to do it wrong, i will do it for the record, if i ask you a record and you have to refer to it and take a pause please let me know. I think we will be able to follow along. Mr. Ziegler, you stated on page 17 of your transcript that you started this investigation in november of 2018 after reviewing bank reports related to a case that you are working on a social media company. Those bank reports have been identified as paying prostitutes relating to a potential prostitution ring. Also included in the bank reports with evidence that hunter biden was living lavishly in his bank account. When you make this statement did you actually review these statements . You got it from someone else. Its relating to you and what they said. You have looked at the documents. That is correct. I looked at. That mr. Shabbily, you testified on page 57 concerning the 2014 tax report. Hunter biden did this, he told burisma to send that income to rosemont. When the money came back to him, he booked it as alone. You then go on to testify that it should have been taxable as soon as it became income from burisma to hunter. Whatever he did with that after that was a scheme to evade taxes for that year. It did not focus alone. So biden is treating it differently. Did you look actually at those records . Is this your viewing of them to create this testimony . That was the evidence. Especially for ziegler who is the expert. Yes, i saw that evidence. Mr. Ziegler you also looked at these bank records respect to the 2014 tax payment from burisma. Yes. Mr. Shabbily he went on to say this is like textbook, its basic training nominee stuff, and all of these defenses it was alone. You have got to have a premise. You have got to have defined interest and none of them were included. How did biden claim this was alone . He got it from them but doesnt claimants alone. Theres no promissory note. Theres no interest or repayment. Is that correct . That is correct. They actually booked it. They booked it as a deduction. Meaning it would have been a payment to him. It wouldve been deductible to hear them. Income to him in the papal with tax. It wasnt just the Bank Documents that you looked at you also had the opportunity to look at a member from sure when. Eric sherman was actually hunter biden and mr. Shabbily, in your testimony, you included exhibit four, it was a memo from hunters accountant saying youre going to oh tax. Youve got the attacks but this position is income. There should have been income tax paid off. Correction to, that i did not provide this document. It was provided by the committee. We have it in the testimony. Both for you i think the taxable amount, would have been about 125,000 on the 400, 000, is that correct . That is correct. Mr. Ziegler . That is correct. You had no evidence in all the records that you looked at that those taxes were forever paid. They were not. They were not paid by hunter biden. Since the statute of limitations were allowed to run, mr. , chapel you go on to state that in order for them to pay it you have to pay voluntarily, the government doesnt have a way to compel him to pay, they have allowed the limitations. Its not a criminal. You have to pay the tax. That is correct. Its criminal. It has expired for that tax year. So, he has its pocket 125,000 of money that should a god to taxes. The state of ohio, you have an average family owning about 62, 000, thats like two full households of tax income that he got to keep in his pocket. I wonder, he could pay that today, right . Voluntarily . Oh, yes. Yes, he could. Perhaps mister president who supposed to be in charge of taxes coming to our nation and who so frequently tells us that the American People arent paying enough taxes, they might want to wonder and turn to her son say hunter biden, why dont you pay your taxes for 2014 . They just testified. Its 125,000. You have to cut the check. Thank you, mister chairman. The chair recognizes mr. Norton from washington, d. C. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Shabbily and mr. Ziegler, thank you for being here today. We are obviously going to talk a lot in this hearing about the investigation into Hunter Bidens taxes. So, i think its important that we set the scene. We make it clear what type of investigation we are talking about. Mr. Ziegler, what year did you open the hunter biden investigation . That was 2018. November of 20. 18 2018. Thank you, the department of justice and announced a plea agreement with hunter biden last month. I estimate that you send four or five years on that would be correct. Mr. Ziegler, in your testimony before the ways and Means Committee you said that when your time working on the investigation ended, it was quote 99 back then quote and that you had worked to complete 95 of the investigation and quote. Given this testimony, mr. Ziegler, in the years that you sent on the investigation, you saw it nearly to completion. That reference was to tax cases. The tax investigation as far as all the work we had done regarding that. 99 of that has been done to that date. Mr. Shabbily, on page 12 of your tan skipped the transcript from your interview, the ways and Means Committee, you describe the aires team in this investigation as consisting of him quoting 12 elite agents who were based on their experience and performance in the area of complex high dollar International Tax investigations and quote. Mr. Chavez, how serious are the investigations undertaken by these elite agents . Im not sure i understand how to answer your question. We do they have to be very serious to be undertaken by these elite agents . I think i can answer this. We have to treat each taxpayer the same. Thats the most important part. We are the agents with the International Tax group that come in there. We have the expertise to work these complex financial investigations. Whether they are more serious, we have to treat each person in taxpayer the same. And thats what i try to do in my job with. I was referring to the high complex tax return. Mr. Ziegler you called hunter biden investigations are quote complex criminal tax investigation and quote and i understand that it was an inter Agency Effort involving the iris, the fbi, the u. S. Attorneys office in delaware and dojs tax division in d. C. Mr. Ziegler, is it fair to say that this sort of Inter Agency Team is only assembled for serious and complex investigations . I can only speak to what happened in this particular investigation. The reason why under agencies might join, that just depends on the crimes were investigating. We are the only agency in the federal government that is allowed to investigate attacks crimes. And thats why you have to have, if you have a tax crime case you have to have the iris on that case. You have lots of other agencies as well. It seems like Hunter Bidens taxes were in a great deal of scrutiny and rigorous review by large teams of experts investigating who had experience working complex cases. This investigation occurred over several years and spanned multiple agencies and divisions and had an expert team. They devoted to it to this investigation and made it abundantly clear that this investigation was taken seriously by both the irs and doj while our witnesses here today may disagree with the u. S. Attorneys decision. It was undeniable that hunter biden was in a thorough and rigorous investigation i thank you and i yield to the Ranking Member. That lady yields back we will take a ten minute recess at which point we will reconvene and approximately ten minutes