as a leader in homeland security, technology and foreign-policy. as the ranking member of the house foreign affairs committee representatives mccall has also been an important leaderon policy towards the people's republic of china including our human rights , us intensifying many facets of strategic rivalry with china's own communist party. i'm also joined by my colleague and fellow here at hudson, laurie is additionally a commissioner for the us commission on international religious freedom appointed by house speaker nancy pelosi as well as chair of the uighur human rights project. congressman mccall we are honored to have you back at the hudson institute. first off let's discuss the chinese communist party's campaign of systematic oppression against the uighurs and others. the china attacks called on the department of state to issue a determination that the communist parties crime against uighurs about the genocide. last january we welcomed the state department that it would officially designate the chinese communist party's legal muslims and others for crimes against humanity and genocide. key us allies are themselves now debating important issues of genocide and last month we had an editorial in the economist magazine arguing that genocide was the wrong word to describe the horrifying abuses against the uighurs. you have disputed the economists review. tell us why is the autonomous editorial challenging the term genocide and what are the potential implications should other prominent media outlets and other elements including our own adopt the economists dispute? >> i want to thank the hudson institute for asking me to point today's important discussion. the appalling human rights abuses by the chinese communist party especially those committed against the uighurs muslims and other religious minorities have horrified the entire world. pcp is currently interning at least 1 million people in a vast network of concentration camps. that is according to the department of defense . according to former chinese people in these camps are deprived of food, beaten, brainwashed, subject to forced labor and sexual abuse. there are reports of forced sterilizations, forced abortions, murder of infants and the disappearance of people who would never be heard from again. uighurs children are forcibly removed from their parents homes and sent to orphanages and they live under a constant orwellian surveillance by the ccp. yet last month as you stated, the editors at the economists argued the ccp's atrocities did not amount to a genocide. a claim because the ccp quote is not slaughtering them, there can be no genocide. on every single point they make up their absolutely wrong area they had taken a moment to rethink the convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide, which china itself ratified, it would be clear that actions and intentions of the ccp equates to genocide. there are reports the ccp has been killing uighurs, to causing serious bodily or mental harm to uighurs, trying to bring about the physical destruction of the uighurs and five preventing births of uighurs and six, and lastly or simply transferring children out of their homes. this is in other words trying to destroy an entire generation, an entire culture and an entire people. so in other words their actions meet each aspect of genocide as defined by the world. i hope the economist intentions were not served genocide apology. ccp will use its headline and others to excuse and whitewash their genocide. they will use it in their propaganda. in the united states has a moral obligation to do everything we can to stop these atrocities from happening area the house has passed legislation like the uighurs forced labor prevention act which will ensure american companies are not importing garments and technology made from uighurs slave labor. but we also need strong action from the biden administration but unfortunately we've only seen on rhetoric today. they have promised costs quickly imposed on the ccp for this genocide. but they have not outlined any six and while secretary blinking an eye has repeatedly said he believes that ccp is committing genocide we still not heard from thepresident on this issue . i'm hopeful though that the administration will soon detail how we plan to confront the ccp for their genocide area and also hopeful includes more than just our chores. unfortunately a genocide against the leaders and other ethnic and religious minorities is not the only instance of human rights abuses by the ccp. whether it's disruption of freedom in hong kong, oppression internet or persecution of journalists and doctors who told the truth about the beginnings, the origins of the ccp shows time and again that it has no regard for human life or liberty. and the longer the united states refuses tohold them accountable , the more it will embolden them to continue. so i want to thank the house for having me again today and i look forward to talking about these issues much more and i'm actually delighted to be here but also i know he has really an incredible story. >> thank you very much congressman. as you have been part of this effort in the u.s. congress last year in particular, the united states government made announcements on global distinctions designation of entities being added to the list. as the us or allies responded to the brutal repression of the uighurs and others in the region . if not what else should we be doing? >> i think we need to do more. secretary pompeo was very forceful against the definition of genocide and applying it to what's happening to the uighurs muslims. we have applied sanctions to anyone associated with the manufacturing of garments but we need to do more. i think we need to put this on the global stage.when genocide was occurring, and the holocaust, the world didn't know about it until after the fact. the horror and shock of the american people i think there were similar things happening right now as and most people just had no idea that it was happening over there. i think we're trying to destroy an entire people and culture by basically exterminating the next generation but i also like for the administration to expand the enemy list and apply the same licensing rules as they have, that we have previously in the case of quality. >> what is the sense of the new congress thinking about these issues on the genocide determination, maybe additional legislative response and how do you hope that the biden administration will deal with this issue specifically on the policy grounds? >> i think when it comes to human rights, we do have a great, it is not a partisan issueand it's very much a bipartisan issue . i have to say i've been on the floor many times with these votes against what the ccp wasdoing in hong kong . defending taiwan from the ccp . and it really does bring both sides together. i think that's important. were congress as the voice of the american people to send this message to the chinese communist party that we will not tolerate this area and always amazed at things that we say that as a committee level. it gets out there through the voice of america and other entities so that they know that the american people care . and that we want to do something about it. we defend their human rights area and that we condemn these men rights violations area so i am, i think i see more of this in the future of this congress cause it is one of those issues that unites rather than divides us. >> thank you very much and moving on to a slightly different subject but related, norman and i recently hosted the german journalist to discuss his new book. we have been harmonized, life in china's surveillance state . the book i believe is obligatory reading about hybrid how the chinese communist party has harnessed artificial intelligence and information technology to build a new kind of techno totalitarianism and the most advanced police state the world has ever seen. the ccp is clearly intent on exporting this population control technology to other countries around the world and they've been doing that with a great sense ofpurpose and alacrity . you've been a leader in congress on the dangers of allowing beijing to control information technology and the next generation technologies. we be dealing with this threat not just to democratic norms but also international norms around the world. >> right and it is a surveillance state. they're doing this in hong kong and artificial intelligence,cameras, biometrics . there are a total surveillance state and i know we'll talk about the origins of covid in a little bit but the doctors that first saw a new virus were reporting it on social media.on the chat and the communist party picked it up immediately and arrested and retained the doctors and silenced them from talkingabout . that is what they did inchina and that's what lengths they went to to try to cover up what was happening . in the middle of a global pandemic but it takes away all forgiveness and liberties in mainland china. we've done some really interesting things with voice of america to get our message translated into mandarin and cantonese and the mainland china, like the origins of i think what president she and his party here the most arizona people because at some point they're not going to be subjected to this oppression and constant surveillance. we see this also in russia and iran and north korea but the chinese are very sophisticated in their technology. they are moving at a fast clip and have invested $1 trillion in their digital economy. we got to be morecompetitive . i introduced the chipset which passed onthe national defense authorization bill . to allow and incentivize manufacturing of these advanced semi conductor chips which we have in everything from your iphone to f 35 to incentivize the manufacturer in the united states rather than in china or nations that can be compromised by china because they are moving fast on that issue as well . in quantum computing and as we talked about 5g, where in a global competition for this. when i talk to foreign nations, the ambassadors who are thinking about quality i remind them that it's truly a telecom surveillance that technology. what they are going to do is come in at a cheaper rate but know that they are going to pick up all your data. like a vacuum cleaner and surveilled everything you're doing. and so i tried to stress to secretary pompeo, who did a great job that this is in their best interest not to engage with huawei. we persuaded the european union and we have to do better in africa and the african continent and latin america to keep the chinese surveillance program out of the rest of the world. >> you had mentioned hong kong earlier. to crack down there of course is nothing new. a friend in hong kong told me just the other day the local authorities have commenced of course a new and far more intrusive crack down there seeking to eradicate the pro-democracy hong kong news movement at its roots. xi sees the movement as a threat to his own power. how should the us and allies in responding to this dismantling of hong kong's basic law and political autonomy and how should it be responding to the ccp's ongoing crushing of dissent? >> i think what's happening in hong kong is first of all signing a uk treaty but especially using this national security law, invaded and took over hong kong without a shots fired area and the human rights violations are just horrific. anybody that speaks up or out against their government is immediately arrested. any political dissidentsis immediately arrested . any candidate running for office can be arrested for saying the wrong thing. there is no democracy in hong kong anymore and it's become a, part of a completely a part of the chinese communist party now and we warned americans about traveling to hong kong because they too very well could be arrested on site once they touched ground in hong kong. >> .. i know the brits took a lot of refugees in. i wish they had been more vocal about how this violated their long-standing treaty and unfortunately the treaty did not have any enforcement mechanisms, if there was a violation of it. and then i would take you, not too far from there, they can do this in taiwan as well. what we are seeing now is the militarization of the taiwan straits in the south china sea building artificial i own. president she's worldview is that democracy is weak and that dictatorships are strong and that he is more effective and he wants to take china back to like imperial china and that would include the territory of that so he rightfully sees the areas in the south china sea, hong kong and taiwan all of that is rightfully theirs and it is a matter of time before, you know we could see more aggressive and we are already seeing provocative moves in the taiwan straits and also the aggressive nature by which the patrol the south china sea and create these artificial -- our pacific fleet is very engaged in that area and it is important to remember as a congress to say that we are watching you. i passed the taiwan assurance act to make sure that the ccp knows that invading taiwan will not be acceptable to the american people spirit congressman, you have been a leader on the effort to move the olympics next year's winter olympics from beijing to somewhere else. you have been also advocating in an effort to educate the athletes that it will be difficult, if not immoral for them to compete in the backdrop of the concentration camps and ongoing genocide campaign. could you share with us your view on why this olympic is particularly important in the efforts to address the human rights abuses in china? >> we see human rights violations all around the globe and i think the worst are occurring in china. you know, our athletes train hard to be in the olympics and i want to give them that opportunity but also don't want to be complicit with the country that is so abusive of their own people, including the tibetan monks in the tibetan people who have been pushed out and there's a current tension and friction in the himalayas. i mean, a very peaceful tibetan people are producing gated and i am worried that we will be seen as complicit so i would advise and someone goes on television and tries to speak out against the olympics taking place in beijing and we need to think about moving it elsewhere. we are also talking about a country that is really responsible for a virus and very irresponsible in its containment that has killed over 1 million people and millions of jobs as well. i think that should be important we talk about the sponsors but, at a minimum, i think if they do go there to beijing we have to educate them so they know what they are getting into so the previous question about technology and surveillance, you know, we as members of congress when we go over to foreign nations say like china we get fully briefed on their security surveillance and the use of phones and the fact that they will be tracked and all of this with respect to their personal safety and so we want to make sure that if that does occur i would preferred the limericks to be elsewhere but if our athletes to go, at a minimum, we teach and train them with respect to security measures because they will be under surveillance and under a watchful eye. >> thank you very much. >> yeah, thank you, sir. last question. you have referred to beijing's totalitarian regime as a generational threat to the u.s. and to our foreign interests. is the u.s. government, more importantly u.s. citizens, are they ready for this generational challenge? as you look over the horizon what do we need to be doing more of or better to be able to compete successfully? >> yeah, i try not to be, you know, scare tactics but i think you've got to go into this eyes wide open. covid open the aye's of the american people. i think with that they realized that this is a nation that would hoard and not supply personal protective equipment and people did not realize how reliant we were on medical supplies for rare earth minerals and for advanced semi conductor chips. we need to decouple these supply chains when they impact our national security. the chinese carmen's party is very intense or clear on their intentions and that is that basically it is called the 100 year marathon, global, economic and military dominance. in the 100 year anniversary of the ccp and sometimes they are subtle and they divert from that but in other ways they are very clear about it. i think from a foreign-policy standpoint i get asked about this a lot. yes, go back to nixon going to china. he went there to open up or try to open up china and that was also done geopolitically as a threat to the soviet union. then you had bush 41 who i have a lot of admiration for, secretary howard baker trying to engage, you know, china and, you know, i think it was well intended to bring them into the family of nations and in fact, secretary baker i talked to him recently and he still going in his mind is still sharp and he said we tried to bring him into the family of nations, you know but it just did not work. but then he of the bill clinton administration and i prosecuted the johnny chung case that led us to the director of chinese intelligence and china aerospace putting money in his hong kong bank account to fund the clinton campaign. to interfere in our federal elections, presidential elections, they wanted to influence this technology transfer, particularly satellite technology at that time. that was out of a young prosecutor in 1997 and that opened my eyes back then but, to your point, the american people are now waking up and you have the humans houston consulate shut down in my home state because they were stealing so much intellectual property and biomedical research including the vaccine and they stole information from nasa and out of that we were retrieved so much documentation that you will see further prosecutions and it was good to see the administration trying to take china head-on and prosecute legitimate espionage cases which they been doing for years. they stole 23 million security clearances from the federal government, including my own with no consequences. i think there are cybersecurity, we have the very competitive with them but the amount of intellectual property theft solon, i believe, keith alexander said the largest transfer of wealth in human history and they don't innovate, they steal innovation. they don't create an culturally they think if it is out there that it's in the public domain and that it's okay. i got appointed to chair the china task force and we looked at all these issues and we had over 400 recommendations and over 200 legislative terminations and most of them bipartisan and i am proud to say that about 40 of those got passed on the national defense authorization bill but i think the american people are waking up. there is a recent poll done that 80% of americans now have a negative perception of china and the chinese carmen's party. a lot of that stems out of covid but covid just opened our eyes to everything else going on, whether it be the persecution of the muslims as we talked about in human rights or theft of intellectual property, belt and road initiative and a competition, quite frankly and that's where it is. global challenge as to who will be the world's dominant, economic and military power and that is the greatest long-term national security threat to the next generation. my father was part of the cold war growing up and my father was a nazi and now putting into perspective there's a chinese from his party and i tell that to this generation. they need to understand this. i do think we've made a lot of progress but we have to keep exposing them for what they are doing. i would like to close with just our investigation into the origins of covid-19 and it was absolutely fascinating. as a former prosecutor and investigator type to basically figure out what happened, what happened with the world health organization? why didn't we know about this? we found that this sars like virus was starting to hit wuhan late november, early december and they had about it to week dormancy time to it and in mid december as i mentioned before the doctors on social media they got intercepted by we chat by the chinese, his party and local officials went in and arrested them, detain them and silenced them for speaking the truth and doctor lee, of course, died from covid. he was trying to tell the world that there was a problem in the international health regulations required, after the sars outbreak required a 24 hour notification of a sars like virus and the chinese, his party never, ever notify the world health organization and to make things worse that the head of the who director general who was handpicked by president xi to lead it which is another problem of the united nations as well went along with the cover-up and there was several times when his own experts and wuhan were telling him it's transmittable and taiwan warned them that this is transmittable and yet when they met to determine if they should issue an international health emergency alert that they casted a deciding vote to warning the world as to what was going to be a global pandemic press forward into january the spring festival it takes place kind of like christmas and thanks giving combined 5 million people leave wuhan and travel both cross mainland china and internationally and that is a point when the local epidemic to a global pandemic and the length to which they went to cover up this element is really disgraceful and i think there should be consequences and i think the supply chain will be one of those consequences that plays out and so when we got this report and we talk about the wuhan lab there are two sources and i think they are both a good source for its. the wet markets that have the exotic animals and the wuhan lab of virology. in 2016 the state farm issued two cables warning about safety protocols not being followed at the wuhan lab in the same phenomenon happened when researchers walked out contaminated with sars. we think high probability that what happened was it wasn't manufactured or organized but rather they were looking at corona like the viruses studying how they extrapolate the humans and then trying to create a vaccine so i think there's a very high likelihood that one of those researchers walked out of the lab, went to the wet market to buy dinner on the way home and then that's how the whole thing started. we wrote this report and it's obviously very damaging to the chinese, his party and we translated it into mandarin and through the voice of america we broke through their internet firewall, got this into mainland china and it went viral. this report went viral on the internet, so much so, the president xi's own spokesperson condemned the report, condemned the china task force and condemned me personally then they developed an hour-long program devoted to debunking the mccaul reports. that is how paranoid they were about it because they did not want their own people to know the truth about what they did because that's what they fear the most. they don't want their own people educated. they want them oppressed, that's the bottom line. we had 20 different articles and i would argue some that came through the level of disinformation campaign in our election moving forward. so, you know, i don't think the subject matter lightly and i think if they will tag me that's a badge of honor because we are on the side of angels in this. i think long-term i'm optimistic about the future of the united states prevailing in this great challenge in this great global challenge that we face. >> congressman mccaul, thank you for being with us today and most important thank you very much for the leadership that you offer our republic and we hope to have you back at some point very soon. thank you. >> thank y