coronavirus pandemic. they talked about their future political plans, working with the biden administration and the january 6 attack on the capitol. this is an hour. >> good morning, i'm a correspondent for politico and author of "politico nightly" welcome back to the morning session of the 50 american governors. today i'm talking to asia hutchinson in his second and final term in office. thank you for joining us from arkansas. >> great to be here. >> we've got a lot to talk about today. we'll talk about covid relief, aabortion restrictions and the future of the g.o.p. but before we get started, a reminder to all of those tuning in to the live stream that you can follow the conversation on twitter using the hash tag #the50governors. with that, let's get going. i want to start with covid which is obviously the topic that is affecting all of us right now and it is on all of our minds. two of your neighbors two of arkansases' -- arkansas' neighbors, texas and mississippi, announced an end to mask mandates and covid restrictions. yo yourself lifted business restrictions but said you want an offramp for mask mandates. a talk about what that means and how your approach differs to your neighbors including us here in texas? >> what i announced was we could end the mask mandate and convert it to a guideline on march 31, the end of this month, and that gave us a 30-day ramp. if we met certain public health criteria. so i wanted to give everybody hope and understanding of where we are. but a goal that was set. so if we have reduced hospitalizations, location count, low positivity, then we meet those goals, then march 31, we can lift that mask mandate. that doesn't mean the end of wearing a mask. because the public understands that it is a protective measure. if you can't socially distance. but i like the offramp. we still have the emergency in place. right now we're on a consistent path to achieve that goal. we want to wait and see where we'll be on march 31 to make a judgment then. >> right. so there's no demmings right this second, you'll take a look at where the data leads you. >> that's right. and of course again, we're on target to meet that public health criteria in terms of the data, but we're not there yet. and we want to make sure that we have enough time to measure exactly the judgment we should make at the end of the month. >> so i want to talk about veterans administration nation -- vaccinations now. thing pace is moving in arkansas and i've read in local papers that there's some folks who are calling on you to call out the national guard, something that's been done in other states. what are the strategies that you were thinking about to maybe boost the base of -- the pace of vaccinations in the state? is there something you're looking at to make it go more quickly? >> we are working every day to increase the efficient soif our vaccine distribution. part of it is, we increase the supply and then we've moved our -- to our 1-b category, we have already vaccinated our teachers, we vaccinated the law enforcement, health professionals, everybody over 65 has access to vaccine. we're moving methodically through. we're doing it by a scheduled appointment, balancing efficiency in getting it out with equity. when you're a rural state, it takes a little more effort to make sure that you get it to rural areas of our state. so we're balancing those two and right now, we're continuing to increase the percent of arkansans that have the vaccine and it has been well received. gives everybody a lot of hope. >> absolutely. recently, i read that there's a few mass vaccination clinics you set up in arkansas and they didn't do the number of patients that you guys had expected. are you a little bit worried about vaccine hesitancy in arkansas? is there anything you're doing to kind of convince people that they should get the vaccines? >> yes. that was worrisome this last weekend. we had a mass clinic in northeast arkansas, jonesboro, with 3,000 doses allocated and we had right at 2,000 that got the vaccine that day. they were calling up people, trying to get them in. that's what persuaded me we needed to move more categories, 1-b, open it up completely, so the demand is increased. and that's what you see in a state, you'll see some areas that we need to put more into the categories to get vaccinated. other areas of the state there might be a waiting list. we're balancing those two. but that's what convinced me we've got to push and push to get that demand increased. in terms of the hesitancy, i mean, we're doing it by example of minority community leaders, being on facebook, being in advertising campaign, we're trying to provide the leadership. a lot of it, whenever we open it up to our poultry workers, it's the companies themselves that really encourage and educate the workers and that, you know, raises the efficiency to 80% of our poultry workers in one plant is getting vaccinated. in others it's lower because you don't have the same education effort. so we're really utilizing our minority health commission, our health team, to educate people about the importance of taking this vaccine and how you've got to get it done when it's your turn. >> it's been, you know, this is considered marking the one-year anniversary of the pandemic in the u.s. in a lot of different levels. i know not too much monday morning quarterback here but is there anything you would have done differently this past year? anything you might have felt like now that you kind of know what you know that you wish arkansas has been -- had done a little differently? >> of course a year anniversary is a good opportunity to go back and reflect. there's going to be a better opportunity down the road. we need a 9/11 type commission that reviews the decision making during this pandemic, both from governors to the federal level. in terms of arkansas, it's interesting that this one-year anniversary, the anniversary of when it was announced as a global pandemic but it's also where we had our first case, one year ago. in temples of decisions that were made, i thought through it, i think we've made the right decisions, achieved the right balance. you can argue a lot about timing, for example, the mask mandate, i think we were close to the first southern state that put in a mask mandate. we did that in august. it couldn't have been done earlier because it would not have been public acceptance of it. by doing it, it reinforced everybody's education that that is important for reducing the spread. one of the good decisions we made was keeping our schools open last august. which many states shut it down. president biden is trying to open them up. we never closed them. that was right decision to make. so by and large, i'm not second-guessing some of those tough decisions we made. >> thinking about if there's another pandemic, hopefully not in our lifetime, but if there's another pandemic, taking lessons from this one to prepare for the next one as well. >> in that area, there's a lot of things we could do differently. the first thing is, we're already setting about a warehouse management program for p.p.e. that no one was prepared for. and really made it hard to make the right decisions. you couldn't open up the schools very well because we didn't have sufficient p.p.e. it made our hospitals nervous, our health care professionals. so we're now building the stockpile for the future and not just where you have an inventory there that you open up and see that it's all expired. we're going to have it replenished regularly. that's one of the lessons learned. i think that the infrastructure in our public health system will be more vibrant when this is other over with, in the event we have something similar to this in the future. both in terms of testing capacity, but also just in terms of our overall infrastructure and professionals that are there. this pandemic has inspired many to go into public health and to go into medical profession and that's one of the benefits we'll be better positioned for that in the future. >> a couple more dwhones pandemic. one is about your work with the federal government. i know you met with president biden at the white house in february. what are your asks right now to the biden administration in terms of getting the pandemic under control? let's leave aside vaccine supply, everybody wants more vaccine supply but other than that, you know, are there other steps you want the white house to take to ease, not just the health crisis but the economic crisis right now? >> it's been a good partnership. when i was in the white house meeting with president biden, the topic was the american rescue plan. i, of course, made the point that it's too large. we have a balanced budget in arkansas. we actually have a surplus. wing mored our way through this pandemic. we didn't shut down our economy. and so that amount of relief is really too large. we do need the economic stimulus part of that. that will help us across the country. but that was the focus of our discussion. it's been a good partnership. one of the things that we emphasize is that as we increase the manufacturing production -- manufacture and production of our vaccines that give the states the control that we need toing more that. and resist the -- we need to mannage that and resist the temptation to go through multiple different federal programs that reduces coordination, redeuces the efficiency, in my judgment. we all share the interest in getting equity out and making sure we get it to minority communities, low-income communities, hard-to-reach rural areas. but the states can besting more that. -- can best mannage that. that's been a point of emphasis by the governors an myself. we had disagreements on the american rescue plan. put that's done. now it's a matter of that money that flows to the states, don't restrict us on how that money can be used. we can mannage that well. give us flexibility. we're waiting on the guidelines to be drafted and that's what what worries me, that they'll put guidelines in there that's going to be more restrictive than the actual language of the legislation. but for us, we want to put so much of the money into rural broadband. give us the flexibility to do that. we don't have pension funds we need to put the money into. we don't have a budget we need to put money into. it's about that investment for the future. if you're going to give us that money, which they have, that's how we want to invest it. >> with no strings attached, right? >> absolutely. flexibility. >> what does getting back to normal look like for arkansas? you talked about using day to to figure out when to lift the mask mandate. is there a metric or something in your mind that will signal for you that we're sort of back to normal? >> it's going to be having people vaccinated, i've converted our business mandate into guidelines. more flexibility there. for our businesses. but they're going to continue to be careful and watch the guidelines and their spacing until we get a large percent of our population vaccinated that has to be the whole focus. whenever they're talking about 70% to 80% in terms of vaccination rates. that means we have to really move through the population quickly. that will allow us to get back to normal. i follow the c.d.c. it was meaningful whenever they said if you're vaccinated then your family unit can associate with another family yaunt or visitors that come in that have been vaccinated as well. you've got to incentivize people through relaxed guidelines to get vaccinated. if it doesn't provide a change in behavior and social interaction, then what's the incentive for it? they want to hug their grandchildren. they want to be able to go to events and we're -- we want to get back to a large -- to large crowds and baseball and basketball venues and to do that we have to increase the vaccinated population an actually get it down to our schools for next year which is the plan so that we don't have the spacing limitations in our schools and everyone can feel safe. >> right. those c.d.c. guidelines were really important, a really big milestone, to athere's a path back to normalcy. i want to move on to, not at all a controversial topic, abortion. yesterday you signed into law, this week you signed into law one of the most restrictive abortion measures in the country. it's a ban on abortions without an exception for rape and incredit. you had said the bill was specifically designed to challenge rowe 1r6r789 wade at the supreme court. are you worried that this might backfire because there isn't an exception for rape and increst and that the supreme court may not overturn the abortion law? if that's the case what's the -- what's the next step? >> i mean this is the big challenge. it is a frontal assault on roe v. wade. as you have indicated, i asked the legislature, i would have preferred to have rape and incest as additional exceptions because i think that enhances the chances that the supreme court would review the case when it has more popular acceptance with those exceptions. but i have pro-life view and i signed that legislation because it had such broad support within the legislature in arkansas, you can override the governor's veto with a simple majority vote. with that broad support i signed the legislation. and that means that because it is clearly different than roe v. wade, contradiction to that, it's likely to be struck down in the lower courts, the whole design is that the supreme court would be willing with a more conservative majority to accept the case, to revisit roe v. wade. that is the strategy. and sure there's risk involved with every strategy but with the more conservative court now, the consensus was that this is the right time to move the case in their direction that hopefully they'll accept and review the abortion rulings of roe v. wade again. >> as a former u.s. attorney are you thinking about -- already thinking about how to argue this case in front of the supreme court or how arkansas should argue the case in front of the supreme court? >> that's a long ways to go but i think, you start with the premise that roe v. wade under the pe numb bra of privacy, constitutional right was wrongly decided and not logically decided. then the science has improved that life is much more recognized in the early days, in the womb, than ever before. ed on so for all those reasons it's time to revisit that. and so i think that's -- you start with that strategy and secondly, in this day and time there's a recognition on the court that there's greater responsibility under the 10th amendment for the states and this can be handled by the states. as well in terms of abortion restrictions or abortion guidance. i think that's a strategy. there's better constitutional lawyers than me that will argue the case. >> you know, you talked about your relationship with the biden white house but arkansas is also one of a dozen states that earlier this week sued the federal government over his executive order on climate change. i mean, are you -- what are -- how will this affect your ability to work with the federal government? to prepare for extreme weather, both of our states saw this extreme winter storm in february, there's a lot of preparation that arkansas and texas needs to do to prepare for extreme winter events like this. are you worried the lawsuit will affect your ability to work with the white house on those kinds of things? >> i certainly hope not. i have a leadership role in the national governors association. i think i have a good working relationship with the administration. i want to be able to continue that. we can find common ground on many different issues. but at the same time, whenever we have executive orders or other decisions of the administration that adversely impact manufacturing jobs in our state or the growth of our agricultural community, then i've got to push back and particularly whenever i see the harm long term and also there's some serious constitutional issues as to whenever the federal government starts redefining what are the social costs of greenhouse gases? and if you're going to more than double the if you're going to double the cost estimates for greenhouse gas, that's going to trickle down and really break down the partnership that the states have with the federal government, cost us a lot more in regulation. and not really be effective in accomplishing improved climate which we've made great progress in in the last few years. renu: you've talked about great energy and energy diversity in arkansas being really important and what's the future of green energy in arkansas. is this something you think will grow in the state? governor hutchinson: absolutely. you look at arkansas, of course we have a good diversity of energy sources from hydro to nuclear to power generation, from coal but trying to shift to a natural gas. one of the areas that we're really making great strides in arkansas is solar energy. we have significant investments in solar. we have a good regulatory mix here. we have a -- we have solar farms that are being developed that's being put on the grid. so i expect that to be a pattern in the future and, as solar gets even more competitive, i expect that to grow more. we have a lot of sunshine in arkansas and solar's a good mix for us. renu: absolutely. same here in texas. so as of this year, the minimum wage in arkansas is $11 an hour. this was thanks to a ballot initiative that passed in 2018. this is something you were against at the time. do you support it now and do you think that congress, the federal government, should raise the minimum wage, if not to $15 an hour, something closer to $11 which is what arkansas has? governor hutchinson: i think it's fine for the federal government to adjust the minimum wage. obviously raising it to $15 an hour would have been seriously problematic and would have cost so many different jobs that are needed in arkansas, young people would not have had the same level of opportunity. the lower skilled worker would have had their jobs eliminated and so that would have been a very dramatic change that would not have been helpful to a state like arkansas. i view the minimum wage as something that should be a floor that we can set nationally, the state should have more flexibility. i think we have it about right. y, yes, i did disagree with moving to $11 an hour at that time. but it's in our constitution now. we've adjusted to it. it's cost us more in many different areas, both if state government and the private sector. but people adjust. it's eliminated some jobs but we're handling that. but i think you have to be careful in raising that too fast and remember that we're recruiting jobs that are paying $20 an hour, wal-mart is paying more than the minimum wage. so we're raising good wages in arkansas and the wage rate, we don't have to be forced into doing it that would eliminate some important jobs, they're more on the low skill side, but we still need those jobs and we don't need to eliminate those. renu: hard to think of arkansas without thinking of watt matter, of course -- of wal-mart, of course. i want to talk about voterritis. governor cooper talked about this -- voter rights. governor cooper talked about. this you signed a strict voter i.d. bull in your state -- bill in your state earlier. why sign this bill whether when there's been no widespread evidence of voter fraud and are you worried about how the bill might present just another hurdle to minority groups and others that are already feeling disenfranchised or may not get out to vote as often as they should? governor hutchinson: well, the people of arkansas through a constitutional amendment or initiated act passed voter i.d. so this was something that the voters said we want. and the most recent legislation did tighten it up so that everybody has to be able to present some form of i.d. in order to vote. i think it does give us secure elections in arkansas. but one of the statements that i made when i signed that legislation was that we need to keep an eye on this and if we see that there's a segment of our population that does not have access to an i.d. or we're not providing the assistance to them, and that's what we need to take the initiative on is if you've got someone in a nursing home that doesn't have an i.d., let's make sure that we assist them to make sure they have that access, the same thing for anyone that might have a problem. so the goal is not to repress votes but the goal is to secure votes. and i'm all about expanding our voter registration, our voter participation and we want to make sure that we don't put unreasonable burdens. i hope this does not create that. renu: yeah. we'll talk about politics a little bit. you have been a vocal critic of president trump and said that you're not going to support him if he runs for president in 2024. but his press secretary is going to run for governor, sarah huckabee sanders. would you support her, trump's press secretary, to replace you next year? governor hutchinson: there's a competitive race for governor. i think sarah huckabee sanders is a very formidable opponent that has a lot of support out there. she's raised a lot of money. so i'm neutral in the race. as i should be. at this time. but if the people of arkansas elected her, i have no problem in supporting that as well. or if she wins the republican nomination. but, you know, trump's going to be very engaged, it appears, in the 2022 election. and that's his right and prerogative. he has an incredible base that's out there. much of that is in arkansas. my point is that there needs to be a lot of different voices in the republican party and i hope to be one of them myself. as to help define the future. and i'd like to see our future defined based upon our principles and not simply a very contentious personality that i don't believe serves the civil debate that we we need in the united states, civil discourse and so that's my view on it and i hope that we can get back to our principles and we have a lot of different voices that want to talk about reduced regulation and the role of government. and the trade issues. i think we're going to have to redebate the trade issues in this current environment. and those are the substantive things we need to be talking about as we look to 2022. renu: yep. so you're not going to -- does that mean you're not going to throw your endorsement behind anyone ahead of the primary? governor hutchinson: i don't anticipate that. but i reserve the right to voice myself if necessary. but, no. i don't intend to be involved in our gubernatorial primary to succeed me. the people have good judgment. i know we have good candidates there. that will sort itself out. renu: you talked about this a little bit. but, you know, a little bit more on the personal level, your own nephew, who is the state senator, said he's leaving the republican party. what do you think this means for the future of the g.o.p. when folks like that are leaving the party and, i mean, what should the party do to get people like your nephew back into the fold? governor hutchinson: well, it's really a wakeup call in some ways that we have someone who was our republican leader in the state senate, he's been engaged for a number of decades, fighting for republican causes. and he decides to leave the republican party and become an independent. he indicated that's a reflection of divisiveness, of lack of civil debate, and willingness to work in a bipartisan way. that tells me that, let's fight for our principles. let's make sure that we don't lose any other good leaders such as that. and, you know, part of the reason, he pointed out, was the national leadership under president trump. that was a concern to him. i made a decision not to do that. i mean, i didn't even think about that. i'm a republican. i've been a republican for four decades. fighting in the trenches as a minority and now we're the majority party in arkansas. when i'm not happy with the direction of our party, i want to get out there and fight for what i believe in within a very broad tent of the republican party. politics is about expanding, not becoming more narrow. and we need to make sure that we have a party that reaches out to minority groups, that african-americans, hispanics, that we have a voice that resonates with them and that we can build our party and not shrink our party. and we have to be able to be competitive not just in middle america, but i'd like to be competitive in the northeast. and we have to do a lot of listening and soul searching to make sure that we are responding to all of america as we offer leadership. renu: to people watching, they may remember you're one of the prosecutors during the impeachment proceedings against former president bill clinton, another arkansas native. i mean, now we've seen trump impeached twice. do you think that there should be hurdles to impeachment in congress, to make it harder to impeach a president? do you think that the clinton impeachment that you were a prosecutor in maybe set a precedent? that -- [indiscernible] -- governor hutchinson: well, impeachment should never be successful when they're perceived as partisan. and there should be a high bar to impeachment. i don't think we set a bad standard with the clinton impeachment. there was the rule of law, there was important issues of perjury under oath, obstruction of justice. we did not obtain an acquittal in the united states senate. but whenever you look at the allegations of that, i think they would be viewed very, very seriously today. if you look at the trump impeachment, you know, it happened twice. in a democratic, partisan way. and it wasn't successful. so i do hope in the future that we just don't view impeachment as a means to get even with the other party. or we're not happy with the national leader. it should be a high bar. and there should be a lot of thought and debate and there has to be some national support for it, if that ever happens in the future. it did not happen during the obama years. and, you know, perhaps that's a compliment to president obama. i think it is. but it's also, you know, the house and senate did not go after him in that fashion. you had the democratic majority under trump took a different view and went after him twice in an impeachment. that's not helpful. i don't think it served our country well. even though i disagree with particularly the actions of president trump after the election and leading up to january 6. renu: last question. your term is up next year and because of term limits you can't run again. what is next for you, governor? do you want to be the next arkansas governor that heads to the white house? governor hutchinson: well, i first want to finish strong in terms of getting out of this pandemic. i have a lot of work to do here. very proud of the state. i do want to be engaged in the national discussion on the future of our party and the direction of our country. so i hope in 2022 i have that opportunity to influence the direction of our nation. we'll see after that. so i do want to be engaged and have opportunities to serve in the future. renu: that's a nice political answer. thank you, governor, so much for joining us and for returning to -- for the second year to "politico's" the 50 america's governors. so good to have you back. governor hutchinson: great to be with you. thank you for your leadership on this. renu: absolutely. we learned a lot about arkansas' approach to abortion, their approach to the pandemic and green energy. but now we are going to hand it over to white house correspondent and associate editor anita who is joined by michigan governor gretchen whitmer. anita: hello, everyone. i am anita kumar. white house correspondent and associate editor at "politico." thanks fortuning in. i'd like to welcome michigan governor gretchen whitmer. thank you, governor, for joining us. governor whitmer: glad to be with you. anita: we have a lot of ground to cover, including how michigan is handling the beginning of the end or what we hope the end is of the covid-19 pandemic, what president biden's $2 trillion covid package means for michigan, and the fallout from the january 6 capitol hill riot. before we get started, a reminder to those tuning in to this live stream that you can follow along the conversation on twitter using #the50governors. so, let's get started with what's on everyone's mind these days. the end of the pandemic. we're just hitting the one-year mark today. governor, what are the specific metrics or data you need to see to determine things are back normal in michigan? governor whitmer: back to normal. i think we're all kind of trying to define what that means and when we declare that. so, we've always consistently been following the data, working with our medical experts. i think that one of the things that's really important, as i know i'm not a virology or epidemiologist or public health expert, so i've really been fortunate that i've got some incredible minds here in michigan at the university of michigan school of public health and doctors and our dhhs team and our local departments of public health. the work we have been doing has been centered around what the positivity numbers are, early on it was number of tests, but of course that was hard to come by in the early days. we've really been able to ramp up there. as well as hospitalizations, because we know that when hospitals start to fill up, it compromises and threatens everybody's health. these really are the metrics we've been following. we're now i can tell you seeing more than 2.5 million shots in arms. i think we're at 2.75 million last night. that number's continuing to climb. but these really are the central metrics to understanding where the virus is, how quickly it is spreading, what the community spread looks like and with variants it's really important we keep an eye on that. anita: what's your prediction for when herd immunity will come to michigan? that's the question everybody wants to know. governor whitmer: right. so whether it's dr. fauci or others, we know our goal is to try to get to 70% of our population inoculated as quickly as possible. now, back in december, i can tell you we never got real clarity in terms of how many vaccines were coming in. much less what the u.s. plan was. there just was not a national strategy. at this juncture i can say with the biden administration we have clarity, we have some predictability and ability to plan. at this juncture, if you're a michigan understander, if you are are -- michigan ander, if you're 50 -- michigan understander, if you're 50 -- michiganander, if you're 50 and up, you can get vaccinated. that will drop in just under a week to anyone 50 and is up going to be able to and we're looking at even making some additional groups eligible as well. we'll likery have more vaccines than demand. it's getting better every week thanks to the administration. in a few weeks that will be flipped. and it will be a problem because we'll rush to get about 40% to 50% of our population inock rated. then we're really going to have to work to make sure that -- inoculated. then we're really going to have to work to make sure we get to that 70%. we think we'll have the capacity to do it in the next few months. hopefully we'll hit the target come mid summer. that's our hopeful goal. recognizing there are things that could happen that make it harder to get to that are not in our control. just a couple weeks ago we saw a weather event make it harder for vaccines to arrive. so mid summer. anita: you mentioned president biden's goal here. he's saying everyone who needs a vaccine or wants a vaccine can have it by the end of may. then of course it needs to be distributed. what you're saying is around summer time you hope that every adult in michigan can be vaccinated? governor whitmer: that's our hope. that we get to that 70% number by the middle of summer. we know that there's vaccine hesitancy in communities of color and that's legitimate and there are genuine reasons for that. so we have to earn the confidence of communities across the state. we also know that after all the politicalization of vaccines and public health last year, that we've got to up-- a political divide here as well. which we have to overcome. so these are real challenges that i think will contribute to how quickly we get to that 70%. but that remains the goal. anita: you mentioned the biden administration a couple of times. what do governors want and expect from the federal government in terms of guidance? is it all about guidelines or are mandates actually needed? i wanted to bring this one example to your attention, which is, as you know, several states, more than five, are listing their mask -- lifting their mask mandates. you've kept your order in place. but do you think the federal government should do more to push states to keep those orders in place? governor whitmer: it's so difficult to answer because everything we've been through in this last year. i got the ire of the last administration, because early in the pandemic i pointed out that we really needed a national strategy. and there wasn't one. and because of that we had 50 states navigating these incredible circumstances on our own. recognizing that this virus doesn't stop at our state borders and it doesn't stop at party lines. we really needed a national strategy early on. we didn't have one. we do now. i'm grateful for that. the nation's governors have regular conversations with the biden administration every single week and they give us visibility on how many vaccines we will have for the next three weeks at a minimum. and every week they've increased that minimum. but we never had any of that under the last administration. no visibility, no assurances, and on top of that, sometimes they were undermining our efforts to keep people safe. that's not the case now. the unfortunate aspect, though, is that we are seeing some states moving toward eliminating mask mandates and spiking the football and guess what, the game's not over. we're still very much in this. and the virus still doesn't stop at state lines. that's precisely why it would be great if all the states at least followed the minimum medical guidance to keep people safe. so i'm grateful that the biden administration is showing that national plan and leadership that we were missing for so long, but the inability to dictate what is happening on these basic protocols is concerning. and it's not their fault, it's just the nature of where we are and where individual governors are. but i think it's unfortunate and i think it could extend how long we're dealing with this. the possibly increased likelihood of variants taking hold. and that puts us all in jeopardy. anita: is there anything else the administration could do or do you feel like they're doing what they can? governor whitmer: they've got some limitations. right? i think that they've announced mask mandates on federal properties, that is good. they've encouraged states to do that. that's much better than the last administration who was discouraging it, frankly. so they have done, i think, what they can do. it would be great if our nation's governors would take the torch and see it through. because they've got the full backing and support of the federal government for a change. anita: i wanted to ask you, you were criticized early on during the pandemic for sending covid-positive people into nursing homes. looking back at this year, do you regret that decision? is that something you wish you could do differently now? governor whitmer: i'm really glad you asked that question. it's a republican talking point that people were sent back to nursing homes. that's just never been the case. our policy very closely tracked the c.d.c. we -- when nursing homes, if nursing homes were going to take patients back after they'd been hospitalized we had very strict protocols about how they would stay safe and we made sure they were stocked with p.p.p. so there was never a man -- p.p.e. so there was never a mandate to receive covid patients. despite what i think the republican communications have been here on the ground and obviously that have matriculated outside the state. the fact of the matter is our experience with nursing homes, as tough as this virus has been on older communities and congregate care settings, michigan's experience has been a lot better than many other states because we were so good about developing the protocols. giving nursing homes the supports that they need and the university of michigan study showed that our work saved a lot of lives in nursing homes and aarp has supported it. so we're really proud of the work that we did in that space. just a terribly sad aspect to covid-19, the toll that it's taken on our older populations. anita: some patients did go back but you're saying there was no mandate for that to happen and there were mechanisms in place to deal with them? governor whitmer: right. so if a patient in a nursing home had covid and went to be hospitalized, some were planning took back to their residents and homes that were going to take residents back had to follow very aggressive protocols to keep them safe, to keep them away from the rest of the residents and to have special nursing available to do that and systems in place to keep it safe. so we never suggested or mandated, much less, that they take patients back, but if they were going to, that they needed to follow these heightened protocols. anita: let's turn to schools. on january you turned to schools to open to some in-person learning by march 1. we just passed that deadline. virtually all of them have opened to some extent. i know there are people struggling with that all over the country. my daughter just went back to school this week. your daughter is in high school, you can tell us about that experience. but what would you share with other governors on how to get schools open? because there are many places and many states across the country where schools are still not opening. governor whitmer: i think like every governor, we're trying to navigate circumstances none of us could have ever imagined. the toll that it's taken on all of us has been heavy. the burden that i carry is much lighter than that which many do. and that's what keeps me focused on trying to get us through this tough time. without getting overwhelmed on a day to day, incredibly stressful time. my daughter has not been in school in a year. and i know that she's got the kinds of supports and she's older and she's been ave to navigate online learning better than some and we have access to the internet and we've got a lot of tools at our disposal that most don't. and so getting our kids back in school was something that i think is really important for our children, for their families . but we have to be safe about it and that's why we prioritize teachers and education staff and our vaccine rollout. that's why we have worked so hard to make sure that we've got protocols that schools can follow so they don't have to try to figure it out. we've delineate what had that looks like and what safely returning to learn looks like as well and we've had teachers and superintendents and education experts and families around the table as we have designed this so that we can make sure that we thought through the various pinch points and stressers that are going to be confronted. so we have seen very few outbreaks in schools because if you follow the protocols we can do these things safely. anita: your daughter's still not back in school? is there any timeline for that, for her school? governor whitmer: she's not yet. her school has resumed. my daughter has asthma so she's a little hesitant to go back and she's been able to do onloin and she's in her senior year. so it's my hope that she'll be able to access a vaccine when she's eligible and go back to school with confidence that she'll be ok. anita: i want to turn now to what's happening in washington and what it means for the people of michigan. president biden just scored his first legislative victory, the $2 trillion american rescue plan. what's one thing in the package that you think will have the most immediate impact for the people in your state? governor whitmer: oh, gosh. that's a hard question to answer. there are so many aspects to this bill that are going to give people relief. this has been a tough time. a lot of people are still out of work. a lot of businesses are struggling. they didn't qualify for the many different relief packages that happened beforehand and programs that we created to help small business. and certainly the -- we were just talking about education and i think that should continue to be a part of our conversation today and certainly as a nation. in the average year, a student has learning loss between the last day of school and the first day of the next year. that three months of summer, there's learning loss. the learning loss is always much more profound for children who are in high-poverty situations, children who have got special needs or kids who are english language learners. the covid learning loss is going to dwarf what we usually see in the summer. it will dwarf it. as i engage with at love my superintendents, they're anticipating it could be a year to years worth of remediation that our kids are going to need. and they're going to need wrap-around support. so i do think that education pieces of the relief package are going to be crucial to our immediate need to get kid back. but also to the long-term needs to remediate and ensure that they get back on track and have the wrap-around support that they need to do that. anita: one of the items that was removed from the bill was an increase in the minimum wage to $15 an hour. congress still expects to debate that and put it together as a separate bill. are you worried that raising the federal minimum wage that high and that fast will hurt small businesses in michigan? governor whitmer: i think there are some concerns there certainly. especially after how tough the last year has been. but i have always been a proponent and supporter of inincreasing the minimum wage. no one should work a full time job in the united states of america and live in poverty. and that's just frankly the sad reality for too many americans. i have been a supporter of the minimum wage. i was disappointed to see it not come through in this package. i'm hopeful that the feds will eventually raise the minimum wage because i do think that's an important tool to lifting americans out of poverty. and when fewer people are in poverty, it's good for our economy, which is good for all of us. anita: continuing to talk about the economy for a minute. how have the tariffs implemented under former president trump impacted businesses in michigan? do you want to see the biden administration either ease or eliminate them? governor whitmer: i think tariffs in michigan, it's always an important topic for us. because of course we are -- we have an international border and we are manufacturers. so the destructive policies of the last administration, i think we're all trying to recover from them. the lack of discipline, the tweaks around tariff policy created so much chaos and uncertainty and really was a problem, whether it was in our agriculture sector or in our automotive sector. or in, frankly, craft beer making, where aluminum and steel are an important part of our ability to have these businesses thrive. so i think that michigan workers and michigan industries can compete with anyone in the world. but we need to have a level playing field. and i think that's what's so concerning as we look to the biden administration and the work they need to do. it really needs to be strategic, it needs to be about leveling the playing field for american workers and american businesses. not cow-towing to any nation but making sure we are fighting to protect our american economy. anita: it does sound like you want those eased or eliminated then. you have talked to the administration about that? governor whitmer: i'm not going to advance that conversation with the administration yet. most of our conversations have been around covid and infrastructure. i testified in front of the u.s. senate a couple weeks ago on the need to really be bold when it comes to an infrastructure plan. to build resilient infrastructure and to be mindful of what that looks like in the era of our need to combat climate change. so that's where i've spent most of my time in conversations with the administration. but one of the things i know about joe biden is he gets it. he understands american manufacturing, the need to be mighty in that space. i think we've all seen what happens if critical things that we rely on are manufactured elsewhere, especially in the midst of a crisis. not being able to get swabs or not being able to get masks i think speaks to why we've got to have -- we've got to continue to make sure manufacturing happens here in the united states. anita: i'm so glad you brought up infrastructure because i wanted to ask you about that. everyone watching may not realize that you campaigned on a message to, quote, fix the damn roads. michigan is still near the bottom, though, of the 50 states when it comes to spending per capita on infrastructure. after republicans rejected your gas tax, you went around them and issued -- [indiscernible] -- how would the federal infrastructure plan you just mentioned dovetail with what you're doing in michigan? governor whitmer: i appreciate the question. when i got around the state of michigan, i went to all 83 counties. michigan's a big state. when you are in the western end of the upper peninsula, you are close to lansing as lansing is to the united states capitol, washington, d.c. so it's a huge state. i got all around our state. it was really amazing to me. people, no matter what part of the state you're in, said, i just need to you fix the damn roads. so that wasn't a phrase that was poll tested. or that i came up with. it was what the people in my state would say about our infrastructure. for decades there's been underinvestment in the infrastructure, not just in michigan. but all across the country. and that's why when i use that phrase to echo what the people of my state want and need to see, it resonates with others well outside of our borders. i've been serious about fixing the infrastructure. i led with a gas tax. my legislature would not support it. they wouldn't even offer an alternative, despite the fact that this was the number one issue at the time in our state. so we went alone. and i'm proud of the work that we've done. we've been fixing the roads. but a federal infrastructure plan and a federal partner that understands how crucial these arteries are, not just to our economy, but to our homeland security, to our future, for future generations, i think is a really exciting prospect here. and i know that secretary buttigieg is as excited about fixing the damn roads as i am here at the state level. and i'm really grateful for what i think is going to be a great partnership. so a federal plan will enhance the work that i'm doing through a bond and through some bundling programs that i have around rebuilding bridges and i think it will just exponentially increase how many miles we can improve here in our state. anita: ok. i wanted to turn now to some national politics. president biden came into office vowing to unite the country. but he wasn't able to garner any republican support for his covid package. i know that you've been having trouble and you've mentioned some about getting your priorities through the republican legislature in michigan. what do you think it will take for the u.s. to come around and work together? i know we ask this all the time but it feels to me that things have changed since the november election and wondered what can we -- what can you do to go forward on that? governor whitmer: i think first and foremost, president biden, since the day he was declared the winner, has been really intentional about trying to do outreach. his career was largely informed by his ability to make deals and work with people who didn't see the world exactly the same way but to find some common ground. i think after the last four years of the scorched earth policies and attitude of the last administration, having someone who is trying to find common ground is a refreshing and important change. i know that i've tried to do the same here in michigan. it's not always been easy. in fact, it's been very painfully difficult at times. and yet i'm going to continue to do that. because leaders have to be able to talk to one another. we have to be able to get things done. and if congress isn't going to work with the president, i know he's going to continue to move forward and build his agenda, if they can't get bipartisan support. but he's always going to try on the front end and i think you can't ask more than that. that's how we operate here in michigan too. i do think that the legacy of the last four years is going to make it harder for us to change the conversation and get back to a place where we all recognize we're americans first. before partisans, before state residents, we're americans first. we've got a lot of important work to do. how we conduct ourselves in the next couple of months is going to determine our economic rebound. and that's precisely why the president's going to try to pull people together and if sometimes that can't be done he's going to forge ahead and do what he knows to be the right thing and i applaud that and i admire that in him. anita: things are very much still locked down in washington after the january 6 riots. there are still fences, if you go to the capitol or to the white house and the national guard is still around. i know you faced threats in michigan as well. obviously you were the subject of a kidnapping plot last year. are these threats and the security that we have to endure now sort of the new normal? do you see that going away? governor whitmer: i hope it's not the new normal. i don't think it has to be. but it really requires people of goodwill on both sides of the aisle to attack what is domestic terrorism. and it is unacceptable in the united states of america. the last administration gave comfort to people who were intent on hurting and scaring and terrorizing their fellow americans. and there were not a lot of voices within their own party that were willing to speak up. until the attack on january 1. i have to tell you, here in michigan we saw that eight months beforehand. and when i saw that playing out in washington, d.c., sadly it was stunning, but it wasn't particularly surprising. i have been trying since the first death threats started coming my way, when the last president attacked me personally, been trying to get people to lower the temperature of the conversation. i called the white house, i spoke to the former vice president. i reached out to leaders in my own state, republican leaders in my own state, and asked them, let's bring the temperature down. none of them did anything. and we saw not only that, but some of them shared the stage with some of these very people that are being prosecuted for plotting to kidnap and murder me. so we have a divide, but that divide does not have to fall along party lines. in fact, it can't fall along party lines. we need leaders in business, we need leaders in the private sector. we need leaders in the public sector. across the philosophical divide, to take a stand. because that's what it's going to take to make sure that what you're seeing in washington, d.c., right now is not the new normal. anita: i wanted to ask you about a state story that's actually become a national one. a fellow democratic governor, andrew cuomo of new york, has been accused of sexual harassment, as well as engaging in inappropriate comments and behavior. you recently said that action had to be taken if the allegations against him were true. since your comments, more allegations have been made and we've seen democrats in new york call for him to resign. what did you mean when you said action had to be taken? was that you saying that he needs to resign if the allegations are true? and should that timeline be moved up since there have been more allegations? governor whitmer: well, i think that there needs to be a process. i know that the attorney general is doing an investigationment the governor himself said -- investigation. governor himself said these are serious allegations and that there should be an investigation. i wholeheart lid support that investigation -- wholeheartedly support that investigation. i'm not going to prejudge it. i think one of the things about being a woman and being a survivor myself of sexual assault is that -- and i don't fault you for this, but i'm asked to weigh in on every instance that comes up. and i know that we need to take these allegations seriously and we need to vet them and do an investigation and if they are true, then there should be accountability. but until that investigation happens, i don't know that you can make a conclusion. anita: what did you mean by action, though? were you referring to a resignation? governor whitmer: like i said, i'm not going to prejudge it. i don't know what turn this is going to take. i think there are a lot of different possibilities and that's why i'm not a new yorker, i'm a michigander. looking at it from my perspective is, once that investigation happens, it's going to be incumbent on the people of new york to decide what that accountability looks like. i'll have an opinion once i see the end of that investigation. anita: do you think that there are different standards for republican and democratic lawmakers? governor whitmer: you know, as a woman in a very male-dominated field my whole career, i can tell you that a lot of things that shouldn't be acceptable in the workplace still occur. and that's why i say, i mean it when i say it that we need to take allegations like these seriously. and investigate them. is there a different standard for different sides of the aisle? i mean, we just had a president who lasted all four years with numerous allegations against him . some so far as rape and that didn't -- no one -- on his own side of the aisle was making observations about whether or not he should stay in office. so is there a different standard? i guess one could conclude that. but, you know, weighing in on that, i don't know if it gets either one of us very far. i think that's all i've got to say on that front. anita: we're almost out of time. i wanted to squeeze in one last question and wanted to turn the discussion back to you. we know that president biden talked to you about joining his administration, vetted you for vice president. you saw him when he came to michigan last month. what's your relationship with him like? can you tick up -- pick up the phone and call him? do you talk to him very often? governor whitmer: i know that if i needed to pick up the phone and call him, that i could. but i don't do that because i work through his team and my team is very close to the work that they're doing. we've helped i think inform a lot of the covid policies and certainly there are so many different conversations that we are having with his administration. they have been very open and helpful and been a great partner to us and i'm fortunate to have built a great relationship with president biden. i'm grateful for that. i think the world of him. and i know that if i ever needed him, i could reach him if i did. anita: ok. how about the vice president? do you have a relationship with her? do you pick up the phone and talk to her or is it mostly staff to staff as well? governor whitmer: i do. i've got a good relationship with the vice president and my daughter's home screen is a picture of her and the vice president. so tells you everything you need to know. we're all close and we're all huge supporters of them individually and them as an administration. anita: do you talk to her? governor whitmer: yeah. i haven't talked to her in maybe a couple of months. but certainly even right after the election we were chatting. we had an opportunity to catch up during one of our meetings and -- in december. so, yeah. anita: well, thank you, governor whitmer, for taking the time to join us at the 50 america's governors summit on "politico" live. we've appreciated hearing about the lessons you've learned as you try to bring michigan back from the pandemic. and your thoughts on the state of politics today. for those tuning in to the live stream, this marks the end of the morning session for the summit. and we'll be back around -- we'll be back at 1:25 to kick off the afternoon session and talk to the governors of maryland, colorado and washington state. thanks. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2021] >> more than 2,000 students entered this year's student cam documentary competition and they told us the issues they want the president and congress to address. here are our student cam winners -- >> we wanted to call and congratulate you today. you're our grand prize winner. >> wait, really? >> really. >> congratulations. >> congratulations. >> congratulations. >> oh, my gosh. thank you guys so much. gld grand prize for crust in government. >> the american experiment is one built on successes and failures. in order to get out of this pandemic, to achieve racial justice, to try to reunite a fractured nation, we need to hear the truth, even when, especially when, that truth is at the path -- that the path ahead is going to be long and full of struggle. once we come to expect the truth, even hard truth, we the people can place our trust in a better future. >> thanks to all the students who participated in this year's contest. you can watch all the winning document ears any time online at studentcam.org. >> book tv on c-span2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. sunday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on afterwords, clairemont review of books editor talks about his book "crisis of the two constitutions: the rise, decline and recovery of american greatness." he's interviewed by an author and george mason university law professor. then at 10:00, author, journalist and biographer isaac -- walter isakson looks at his book, "the code breaker." and at 11:05, in her book "the daughters of kobani," journalist reports on a group of female kurdish warriors who are fighting and winning against isis in syria. watch book tv this weekend on c-span2. >> american history tv on c-span3, exploring the people and events that tell the american story. every weekend. saturday, at 2:00 p.m. eastern, university of georgia professor recounts the story of black american expatriates and french war hero. and at:0