The committee stands in recess for five minutes. Recognizesow congressman raskin. You are now recognized, congressman raskin. We cant hear you yet. Rep. Raskin can you hear me now, madam chair . We can, thank you. Rep. Raskin is there any statistical benefit in requiring bureau to deliver apportionment data by the end of the year despite having to ssuspend Field Operations for three months . [indiscernible] statement. With that as far as risk of accuracy of counts is concerned, the shorter amount of time the bureau has to produce quality data, the higher the risk that something is going to go wrong. Rep. Raskin do you agree the couldion to rush the count affect the accuracy of the data assembled . Yes, sir. From a Data Processing standpoint, it does have risk. 150 days was to have of Data Processing. 90 days and now it is 77 days. It puts pressure on them to both identify anomalies and address hey identify. Es t rep. Raskin am i visible now . I am being told i was not on. You are now visible. Rep. Raskin i heard some of our colleagues refer to wild conspiracy theories, but never got to the major one emanating from the president of the United States who invites us to believe there is a conspiracy of dozens of republican and democratic Elections Officials and secretaries of state around the country, all of whom have rejected his ridiculous attacks on the election. Beenas the president has waging sabotage on the american electoral process, he has been waging war on the census, which is a force central to the electoral process in america. The administration tried to impose a Citizenship Question on the 2020 census in a way to designed to depress participation. They refused to back off until the Supreme Court struck it down as unlawful. Then when coronavirus hit and census andlays in the the director tried to do the right thing by seeking a 120 en politicson, th took over again and the president reversed course. Administrationhe forced the bureau to end Data Collection early and still insist it produce the results by december 31. We are seeing a series of outrageous attempts to subvert the 2020 census, just like the attempts to subvert the 2020 election by the president. Now they want to ignore the plain text of the constitution and overturn centuries of governmental practice by not counting all the persons in the United States, as clearly directed by the constitution. Is it not the case there has been an unbroken practice of more than two centuries and counting every person as commanded by the constitution . That is my understanding. From experience working on census issues since the 1990 census, i dont recall this being a topic of even minor conversation in those. Rep. Raskin the 14th amendment says representatives [indiscernible] counting the whole number of persons in each state. There are a number of occasions in the constitution where citizens are used deliberately and other occasions where the word person is used. The reason why we have this unbroken practice going back to the First Congress is it is clear that when we count, we count the whole number of persons. Let me ask, if you were to follow the president down this particular primrose path, do we have a way of counting people in different citizenship and immigration categories . Is there a database in the federal government that has accurate citizenship status of every person in the country . Unfortunately i am not able to be helpful. That is not something we looked a lot at. The Census Bureau is looking at dozens of federal databases, the individual and collective accuracy of those is not something i can speak to. Rep. Raskin that is to say we are not set up to do this because that is not what the constitution calls for. This is another effort by the administration to politicize and disrupt the census. The laws we passed in congress to implement the census in more than 200 years of unbroken precedents. Your time has expired. Set thego back and clock at two minutes and 30 seconds. You are now recognized. Sorry for the inconvenience, madame chairwoman. I would like to address the previous gentlemen, my colleague from maryland in regards to the comments about the election. It is none other than the hasleman from maryland who disbelief in regard to the Voting Machines utilized in 2016 and then the fraud in the election. The gentle man introduced legislation to have federal oversight over the machines. Lets be careful what we ask for. I would be watching arizona in regards to what the machines have done. One legal vote cast for each legal individual. We talked about the migration folks from red states to blue states like mine. Do we have the means to track these migratory patterns to make sure [indiscernible] t do we the means have the means to do that . I am sure we have the means to do that, yes. Shouldnt that be part of my understanding is a must 800 people a day are leaving new york state for florida and southern states. It seems like that would be a va lid number, would it not . It would be an interesting number. I would guess the u. S. Postal service would be able to provide that information to the Census Bureau based on the people that migrate from california to new york, when they would seek residency in a state like florida or georgia would be changing their address. Rep. Gosar Something Like what we have seen democrats do with georgia, they register in georgia for the next election. That something [indiscernible] im sorry, the question broke up. Could you repeat it . Can you repeat the question, mr. Gosar . You broke up . Rep. Gosar can you hear me, madame chairwoman . Rep. Maloney now we can hear you, but we couldnt prior. Rep. Gosar we are seeing georgia Democrats Ask people to come and vote in georgia [indiscernible] rep. Maloney we cant hear you now. We are having connection issues. I will submit [indiscernible] rep. Maloney okay. Now recognized mr. Grossman. Would you please unmute . Can you hear me now . Rep. Maloney yes we can. A couple questions. Regarding immigrants, as i understand it now, are there immigrants in the United States, particularly from mexico, w ho are voting in mexican elections . It too. Else can answer can you repeat the question, sir . As i understand it, there were articles a few years ago that mexican immigrants in the voting intes are mexican elections. Is that true . I dont know that to be an accurate fact. You can presume if someone entered the country illegally and is still a citizen of mexico, they could either return to mexico and vote rep. Grothman sdo either of the three people want to answer that question . You can google it and it will show up. I remember efforts made by mexican politicians to get people in america to vote in the mexican elections. Toi would say its safe presume it is true if you have a question following that. Rep. Grothman it is true. You just google it and you will find out it is true. You would think that is a little unusual. I wondered if that is true, wh ere they register in mexico. I must assume they have a permanent residence, and if so, are they being counted for census purposes in mexico as well . Anybody know . Shouldnt we know that . We have four experts here. Are people here illegally in this country being counted . I would assume i will ask another question if i am an american citizen and want to spend three months taking a Student Spend three months in Great Britain as a student for the fulsome mr. For the fall semester, am i counted for the u. S. Census or not . What happens there . All i can speak to is what the residency rules the Census Bureau uses, the u. S. Census bureau rep. Grothman my question is, it is highly relevant. We dont count people in two places, okay . Fond du lac wisconsin and am a student at university of wisconsin in madison, we have a problem because people double count. Am and dad think missy is fond du lac resident, but maybe her own filing forms. I think it is highly relevant as to whether people in this country are being counted twice. In other countries as well. Does anybody know that . Definitively based on Census Bureau research, 8. 5 Million People were duplicates in the 2010 census. I expect that to be much greater this time. Rep. Grothman what percentage . It was 8. 5 Million People were duplicate records, erroneous records that were included in the counts of the census in 2010. They, plus some erroneous conclusions, ended up counterbalancing the 16 Million People that were totally omitted from the 2010 census. That is the only reason the census in 2010 was hyper accurate. Rep. Grothman so you believe this time as well it might be counting 8 million, 10 people twice . I think the duplication problem is going to be on steroids and going to be much greater. Rep. Grothman that is reassuring. Is any effort being made to make y arepeople are saying thei residents of mexico are not residents here . Census bureau . No . We dont care or dont worry about accuracy . We are so accurate that we have 99. 98 of the addresses . Theme doing something with but weve got millions of people who might be double counted . Is that just people double counted in this country, or does that mean you are counted in the United States and in another country . It is a combination of things. It includes the College Students counted in college town as well as home. It includes divorced families, each parent of which claims their own kids, and it includes a lot of folks who have second homes. If you live in minnesota and like to spend winters in the rio grande valley, you can end up showing twice because you filled out the form in each location. S that rep. Grothman that is reassuring. We found out something new today. Rep. Maloney we now recognized mr. Surveys sarbanes. Rep. Sarbanes can you hear me ok . Rep. Maloney we can. Rep. Sarbanes you cochaired the task force of census experts at the american statistical association. You said in your capacity as cochair that, because data are foundational to our democracy, commerce, and everyday lives, the nation deserves publicly available indicators to assess the credibility of the final count. I appreciate your testimony reinforcing this notion of accountability, transparency, and the accuracy of the data and the importance of bringing in outside experts who can get the public more confidence that the senses is being conducted in an accurate fashion. Are you satisfied the Census Bureau provided full data all the data you and the experts need to assess the quality of the census count . Frankly, that has not occurred. Morent there to be transparency. Ee outlined in our report th indicators that we know exist and could be easily generated and put out to the public and researchers so that we could establish for ourselves independently the quality of the census comes. Count census counts. Because of covid and all the challenges i reviewed over the course of our opening statements, we think there is a severe risk for there to be highly differential quality aspects to the counts across the country. Rep. Sarbanes i want to ask about two specific components of the date. One is getting these quality measures assessed at the census tract level. I want you to speak to why that is important. The second is a followup nonresponse process. Those numbers can be put inside the overall percent Completion Rate at the state level. It is important to break out the nonresponse followup. If you can speak to those two particular issues, i would appreciate it. It is incredibly important to indicatorsd, quality down to the census tract level. We need to know census tracks are neighborhood level indicators. We need to know the extent to which there are real problems, not just knowing the total number of people there, but knowing their makeup so we can plans for things like schools and fire stations, not to of political terms representation, if you have a collection of census tracts that othersrcounted, whereas are over counted, you are going to set up that iniquity that we heard thus far, where individuals and up getting less representation than they deserve while others get more than they deserve. I want to emphasize what you just said. Fundamentally, the census is about giving every person in this country the opportunity to stand up and be counted, and if you dont have that kind of accuracy at the census tract level, as you just indicated, you can have a situation where the voice of some people and some communities is being given more weight than the voices of other communities and individuals in our country. So you can perpetuate some of the unfairness and imbalanced distribution of certain political power across the country that already exists in so many ways. The census ought to be combating that unfairness, making sure everybodys voice is given equal weight. I appreciate you emphasizing that. That is why it is so critical, madam chair, that the transparency and integrity of this process be protected. With that, i would yield back. Rep. Maloney the gentleman yields back. You are now recognized for questions. Thank you, madam chairman. This is a Rapid Response question, yes or no. Allowl landry, should we noncitizens regardless of legal status to run for office in the United States . Can you repeat that again, congressman . Palmer should we allow noncitizens to run for office of the United States . No, sir. Yes palmer same question, or no. That is not something i can offer an informed review on. Rep. Palmer sure you can, it is the law. I am sure you are familiar with the law, yes or no. To the extent it is consistent with the law, i would agree. Beyond is a policy concern i cannot speak to. Rep. Palmer i am not asking a policy question, i am asking whether noncitizens were carless of legal status should be allowed to run for office in the United States. Yes or no . Law, that would guide my judgment. Rep. Palmer it is a yes or no. If the law does not permit it, the law does not permit it. Rep. Palmer so your answer is no . My answer is if that is the law of the land, that is indeed the law of the land. I would have to respect the law of the land. Rep. Palmer i will take that as an unmitigated you dont want to answer. Actually, i very much resonated with his response. If that is the law, then we should follow it. Rep. Palmer then we should we allow them to make financial contributions or any contribution to candidates, yes or no . No. Law should be followed on this, whatever the law will be. It is beyond my knowledge of the requirements. Rep. Palmer the law says no. If the law says no, i would respect that. Law, iistent with the would say no. Rep. Palmer thank you. Residents mented well, should noncitizens regardless of legal status be allowed to vote in our elections . No. Again, it is whatever the legal requirements are. We believe the legal requirements should be followed. Rep. Palmer i will take that as a no. I will conform with the rules of the law. Whatever the losses, i will risk the law says, i will respect that. I would say no. Rep. Palmer im glad [laughter] answers, should votes cast in this last election by noncitizens, including people residing here illegally, be counted and allowed . Yes or no . A rep. Palmer yes or no. No, they should not be counted. Votes should be counted consistent with the law. Same. Votes should be counted consistent with the law. No. Rep. Palmer heres my point. Obviously a couple of you would like to equivocate on this a bit. Should countwe everybody, but not everybody should be counted for [indiscernible] the reason that is the case is the transient nature of a lot of the people residing here as noncitizens. About one third of the people who reside here will not be here for the next census, so it makes no sense to count noncitizens for apportionment purposes, particularly when sick states account for over half of it. Concerned about the fact that there are states that have declared themselves sanctuary states in violation of federal law to protect people residing in the country illegally . Rep. Maloney the gentlemans time has expired, but the gentle man may answer the question. Thank you. Yes, i have been concerned about years and five to six have documented wellknown statistics that show how unsafe these communities are and it is a Public Safety crisis. Rep. Palmer madam chairman, i could not see the clock. Rep. Maloney your time has expired, sir. Your time has expired. You are recognized for questions. Thank you, madam chair. I did not know i was next. [laughter] sorry. I want to ask our witnesses about what goes into fixing the data problems that Census Bureau staff identify in documents obtained by the committee. Document one includes a slide on page four, titled comprehensive Development Test [indiscernible] this slide lays out a detailed 11 step process that the Census Bureau will follow to correct these errors. It includes developing patches to fix the errors hello, madam chair, can you hear me . Rep. Kelly and verifying they solve the problem. Why is it important for the Census Bureau to go through each of these steps to fixing the 15 data problems they discovered . Thank you for the question. The importance is each of these 15 critical anomalies, as they refer to them, has its own set of root causes, its own set of problems, and they need to make sure we get the individual thinks is right, but make sure i t can all come together again and provide an accurate count. This is one of the early steps in the Data Processing. They have work to do even after the comprehensive patch is put in place and successful. Rep. Kelly thank you. Slide seven is entitled generations and risk. If the sequencing of patch deployment isnt executed properly, it may result in other data anomalies. Why is it critical that the bureau properly sequences the steps on each of the data problems they discovered . The key point is subsequent Data Processing is dependent upon the earlier steps. So there is a critical path. In some cases, they can do processing simultaneously. Point they cannot move forward or largely cannot move forward to a subsequent step until they have fixed everything of all preceding steps, and thats the concern they have now. Documents the three layout the stepbystep timeline to fix these data problems. To do shortu was cuts of that process in the middle could that affect the accuracy of this data . The short answer to that, maam, is yes and i think the senses officials would share that view as well. Rep. Kelly thank you. On page seven document one warned that more data promise could be discovered, and i quote, additional time may be required for comprehensive relief. Given that at least two new data problems were discovered in the last two weeks, do you think it is possible that the bureau will discover additional problems over the next month that will take more time to fix . I would go beyond that and say its not just possible, its probable. The Census Bureau expects there will be some additional anomalies. That is based on history from 2010 and earlier. They are hopeful this will be manageable and relatively small, in which case they can maintain a schedule or they would get problematic for the Census Bureau is if they were many of them or depending on the significance of those anomalies. Rep. Kelly thank you so much. It sounds like this is a process that cannot be rushed. The process must be done deliberately and carefully. With that, i yield back. Thank you, madam chair. Rep. Maloney thank you very much. Mr. Higgins, you are now recognized for questions. Thank you, madam chair. Think of holding this hearing thank you for holding this hearing and the witnesses appearing before us today, especially my dear friend and attorney general from louisiana, jim landry. My colleagues have stated again and again that we need to get this right. I would agree. The most significant identifier with theng it right American People is a question of after the senses, what will happen with apportionment recording regarding representation as it relates to illegal residents president here illegalca just residents present here in america . Americans by and large that i speak to across my district and across the country are shocked that thisare advised census could result, and likely will result, in the reapportionment of congressional ofresentation at the expense legal, rural americans, statebystate. Several states can be impacted, to the benefit of illegal residents and densities of populations and states that are identified as sanctuary states. Its shocking to americans to their congressman or congresswoman could be district it out, that their state could actually lose a seat. So that california could get of illegalt because residents being counted for the purpose of apportionment. Attorney general landry, you and i have had long conversations about the constitution. We constitution begins with the people of the United States. It does not begin with we the people of the world, or we the people of the United States plus whoever happens to be here illegally. For the purpose of apportionment, sir, can you explain how allowing illegal residents to be counted for congressional representation of apportionment, how that would impact america, as a former congressman yourself, and you continue to serve honorably, the entire nation thanks you, please give america an overview of just this reality of this is, and what will happen . Where will these seats go . 435 congressional seats. Tell america what will happen if illegal residents are counted for the purpose of apportionment in this census . You, start with, thank congressman, i appreciate it. To start off is to recognize with the goal is in reapportionment, and that is for everybodys about to be counted the same, to have peoples across the country. So when you have states with larger populations of Illegal Immigrants, like california, who cannot even vote in those Congressional Districts, but then you count them in the senses, you amplify the citizens who can vote, the legal citizens in that particular district, you , citizenshise them say in louisiana, goods because you are amplifying the votes of those citizens against the votes of citizens, say, in louisiana. Therefore you are diluting those citizens in louisiana whose votes are not being granted equally to those votes in california. And thats the problem. We should only be counting in the countryns in terms of reapportionment, so that as we apportion congressional seats across the country, american citizens are granted equal weight across the country in representation in the house of representatives. Say, you disenfranchise, africanamericans in alabama, minnesota, ohio. Representation in those states because we are including Illegal Immigrants in the census count for reapportionment. Your time has expired. Rep. Higgins thank you very much. Rep. Maloney misses lawrence, you are now recognized for questions. Thank you so much, madam chair. As you know, i represent the city of detroit. You recognizeony how important it is to deal with the problems caused by this pandemic. In spite of extraordinary self responseits was barely over 50 . I fear too many households were counted using less reliable methods. Example, interviewing neighborhoods and landlords and so on. Is my concern legitimate, and if so, what could that mean for the accuracy of our final numbers . Is veryconcern legitimate, congresswoman. In new york, we have many neighborhoods where self response was very low, and as as ive indicated, the Census Bureau has taken steps to close the gap. In many cases, those steps may not have resulted in an actual contact with a household member. We need to know so that we can have confidence in the census and what theyve done. We need to know how much of that happen, we need to know how many Housing Units were declared to be vacant, how many might have been deleted from their list. We need to know how many proxy responses were used. All of these will give us a gauge so that we can have confidence that the professionals have done what they needed to do. Rep. Lawrence i also want to say that an undercount in detroit likely will cost the city 1. 3 million cdc grants to help prevent the money could have help the city protect more kids. Knowing this, what might be the effect of the anomaly, specifically young children, low income families, black and indigenous and other . . People of color i want to know how can we provide a guess on what kind of anomaly might come up in the next stage of Data Processing . I want to go to something mr. Santos said earlier about duplication, about the idea that the Census Bureau needs to get a handle on how many people were living as of april 1 in the city of detroit, for example, or the city of new york. There was considerable dislocation, a lot of it we believe is temporary, but it caused a lot of confusion. People may have answered into different locations. The Census Bureau needs time to sort this out. If they do not sorted out properly, the number of people that would be for example put back into detroit as of april 1 because they may have left, or put back into new york city as of april 1 will be smaller than it needs to be. I mention something earlier that has not come up, on the census board itself on the performance itself come they ask if you have another residence or if you live elsewhere. It takes time to get that information, to look at administrative reference, to look at all the sources. Maybe they dont have the name on the questionnaire. The bureau needs a time to figure it out. If they dont, you could get hurt, the city of detroit, the city of new york, and the funds that go with that will also take a hit. Thank you. Ce rep. Maloney the gentlelady yields back. Recognizes mr. Keller. You are now recognized, mr. Keller. Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today. The census is an incredibly important topic in this committees work on the matter has been essential for the hard to count people like in rural parts of pennsylvania. We need to ensure the Census Bureau has the resources and support it needs to successfully complete this work. By all accounts, the director and the Census Bureau are on track to deliver a complete and accurate count. Anomalies being brought up during this hearing reflect less than 60 31 hundredths of a percent of the data being processed, and the director self i said that these types of anomalies have occurred in past censuses. All i appreciate the chair holding this hearing today, the threats on the executive order on apportionment should not be controversial. Since we do not use data about the number of people visiting this country for the purpose of determining Congressional Districts, by that same logic, we should not use the number of illegal aliens, either. Mr. Landry, what kind of discretion does the executive branch have to promote equity when determining apportionment numbers . Well, first, congress has rented executive department a tremendous amount of discretion in order to conduct the census , and of course they have abide with the constitution as well. The Supreme Court has said so much in a case called franklin versus massachusetts. Theres no question that excluding illegal aliens from promotes equality. Its interesting that many of the witnesses today, especially as mr. Santos has completely has reiterated, and i agree with him, that people of color are being disenfranchise. I would submit that if being disenfranchise because we are including illegal aliens in the count for the apportionment. You mentioned the Supreme Court decision, could you elaborate on the importance of that decision with respect to the apportionment . In the franklin case, the Supreme Court considered whether to allow people serving overseas to be counted or the purpose of their home state apportionment, and the Supreme Court said yes, that basically the secretary had the discretion under which to determine whether or not they wanted to be counted are not, and specifically the court said the secretary wielded a very Broad Authority to conduct the census in a way that promotes equality. So that grants the secretary abroad amount of discretion and it is important to recognize that it is congress, it is you all that gave the secretary that wide discretion. Rep. Keller thank you, and i just want to followup on another thing. Article one section two of the constitution uses the term all portions with respect to apportionment. Differencerify the between whole persons and all persons . Scalias take justice comments where he warned against the statutely is should not really be interpreted strictly or loosely, but basically it should be interpreted reasonably. So lets say no one has ever wholereted the phrase number of person including everyone in the country because we dont count tourists, we dont count corporations, but yet corporations are persons as well. So again, it just goes back to emphasizing the fact that congress has granted the secretary broad discretion in determining how to define that and who exactly to include and not include. Rep. Keller thank you, i appreciate that, and i yield back. Rep. Maloney the gentleman yields back. Congresswoman, you are now recognized. Thank you for holding this hearing. , theu may be aware American Community survey an estimate of the senses are not conclusive of the territories of the United States. There are nearly 4 million u. S. In the census. Ed a parallel version for puerto rico but not all the other territories. All of the territories including puerto rico, some of the highest poverty areas in the country are not included in the income and poverty estimates of the senses. Ive been on record at four including all these areas in the census. Are any our love you familiar with those surveys, the American Community survey are the small income and poverty estimates, and when any of you be able to briefly describe what each of them does for us . I worked a lot with the American Community survey. It is the basis for the description or picture of the socioeconomic characteristics of a nation. Information that used to be captured on what was called the census longform. The census longform stopped in in 2005 we had the first American Community survey. It is a very large sample of the nations population and it is used as the basis for all kinds of work, school planning, i can tell you from my agency, my position is that we use it for everything. Again, education, income, how people travel, get to work, all kinds of information that is for city planners, for example, or for rural planners or for anyone who is interested. Legislators to be able to use that information to show why are areas need funding or dont need funding. Thank you very much. One of the things im concerned with is because the territories are not included, and because they are some of the highest poverty levels of the country. That is not an estimate, that is a fact. Kind of reasons we been told that we have not been included is the lack of the territories around lack of availability of funding. In any of your opinions, what would be the benefit of including the territories, million american citizens, not just residents, citizens. What would be the benefit to us , ofeing part of the census those other surveys that are drawn . That are done . You would have a picture of the social and economic characteristics of each of the areas you are talking about. My knowledge of the puerto rico Community Survey, in that case, its actually very thorough, and again with a substantial sample, and provides you probably with the basis for the statements that you made earlier. As far as the outlying areas are concerned, that is a matter of policy and a matter of finding that has to be determined within the congress if an appropriation needs to be made for that purpose. But there is no question that we benefit from understanding the characteristics of the population that actually is a benefit to the rest of the nation. Thank you. Mag just ask, the natural disasters, how might that have and the census taking census count in areas like the Virgin Islands or puerto rico that have not in any way recovered from natural disasters in the past three years . [indiscernible] ability to take the census in those areas. , thes no infrastructure people are still suffering to this day. And so its tough to motivate , so theresicipate going to be a Lasting Impact of the inability to properly account for the citizens of puerto rico because of the disasters and the impact on the ability to take the count. Rep. Maloney your time is expired. Representative miller, you are now recognized for questions. Thank you, chairwoman and ranking member. I appreciate you all being here today. As the senses nears its conclusion in these coming weeks, i want to commend the work that has been done by the Census Bureau to complete this years count, given the difficulties, circumstances that have been created by the virus and the pandemic. West virginia could have easily been one of the most difficult states in the nation to complete this year census count, but instead, it appears it is going to be a resounding success, and i would like to thank the Census Bureau for their diligent efforts during this time. Therongly support president s action to protect the sanctity of our constitutionally mandated apportionment process, so that all american citizens are represented fairly and accurately. I get disappointed when i think about the fact that my colleagues across the aisle and the immediate chair leader spent the last four years covering conspiratorial actions and ideas instead of really working on what we should be working on. The Supreme Court is hearing arguments right now on the case that will decide the apportionment in the Census Bureau will be delivering their completed product within the next week. Attorney general landry, how will states like West Virginia, who abide by federal immigration laws, be negatively impacted by unfair apportionment policies . Thank you. Yes, as i explained earlier, when you include illegal aliens the census count or for the basis of reapportionment, estate like West Virginia which may have a high population of Senior Citizens, those american citizens have been disenfranchised by states like california that incentivize illegal aliens to reside and protect them in their particular states. So basically, those illegal aliens are drawn to california and then when we count them, for reapportionment, the Congressional Districts are then weighted toward california at the expense of states like West Virginia. Exactly. Er can you explain my federal law does not prevent excluding illegal aliens for apportionment . Congress has granted the secretary great discretion in apply these types of facts. In fact, i explained earlier on a case that the Supreme Court issued under which the Supreme Court said that the secretary was granted wide discretion as long as it passed a two prong, and that was, number one of that is that it ensures equality. And of course when you basically wait those who are in the country illegally against american citizens, that certainly would not pass the equality test. It would grant the secretary the ability to exclude them in the reapportionment numbers. Is there Supreme Court precedent that shows the secretary of commerce has wrought discretion to determine the policy and it comes to the census and the apportionment . Of franklinhe case versus massachusetts, the Supreme Court reinstated the fact that congress has granted or delegated that authority to the secretary of congress and that that authority was broad. Rep. Miller could you explain how counting illegal aliens or purposes of the Apportionment Base actually creates incentives that encourage states to subvert enforcement of federal immigration laws so that they can be awarded greater representation in the house of representatives . Yes, as i explained again earlier, what happens is that illegalhat have large alien populations will be on the greater power federal stage, greater resources and then basically go to those states at the expense of rural states that have large senior or minority populations. So again, you take a state, say minnesota, African Americans in minnesota will be disenfranchised at the expense of california, which has a greater illegal alien population. So again, the system under which states are incentivized to go against the system, to basically encourage illegal immigration in those particular states rather than abide by federal law. [indiscernible] rep. Maloney the gentlelady eels back. Congresswoman presley, you are now recognized. Pressley thank you for convening this hearing with the urgency it deserves. We cannot risk the loss of doings of americans by compromising the integrity of our senses. The United States is a complete and accurate count of all people. Andconstitution demands mark colleagues and art require it to do our jobs effectively. Ours needed to inform policymaking and ensure our communities get their fair share of more than five four than 1. 5 trillion in funding to support everything from our Transportation System to education and health care infrastructure, to small businesses, and to nonprofits. Snap, oure, look at nations most impactful antihunger program. Census data informed how to allocate its budget of more than 60 billion. Across the commonwealth of massachusetts, snap helps one in 10 residents. In my district, one of the most diverse and unequal, nearly one in five households received snap benefits. Food pantry lines have been growing even longer over the past few months, underscoring my snap funding is so important. For puts food on the table our elders, supports our working families, and ensures that our children dont go hungry. The Census Bureau must take appropriate steps to process and tabulate the final census count to ensure the social safety net programs like snap reach the people who need them most. The ongoing pandemic has proven that these Government Programs are popular and absolutely essential. So as we chart a path through covid recovery, the census count will serve as a Critical Data source to ensure the hardest hit communities receive their equitable share. How important is the accuracy of the 2020 census in ensuring a Fair Distribution of federal funding . I think you laid out exactly right. Its instrumental. Hundreds of billions of dollars, estimates have been over a trillion dollars, that over the next decade will be driven whole or in part by census data. In some cases with some programs, demographic breakdowns, whether by age or gender. So we need to have a full and complete count and we need to have it be accurate in terms of the demographic characteristics, if her going to adequately and sufficiently allocate very scarce federal resources. Szabo, howey dr. Much of your work occurs at the municipal level . Can you elaborate on that and how issues like housing and employment are impacted by an inaccurate census count . Virtually all of my work is of the the neighborhoods city, and i can give you a few illustrations. One that is close to my heart. Decide tochool has to , thew a Boundary Department of education would come to us and ask us how best can we draw this boundary . So we take data with census tracts of small geographic areas and we assemble it and we look at the number of schoolchildren. We supplement that of course with the American Community survey data that was shown earlier to try to figure out how many of those children are in need. How many are across the poverty line . And we create a picture for the department of education that allows them to figure out how to if those children are not enumerated, they are not accounted for in the census, and yet our Community Survey does not show those children to be insent, we make decisions the absence of information, in essence, and it handicaps us. I can give you a number of illustrations like this, but this is just one way that it really matters at a local, geographic level what the Census Bureau has done. We need to understand it. For example, how many of those missing or not missing . One of the reasons why i ask this is because, as was alluded to earlier, omissions and duplication are not generally in the same place. Thisot generally have offsetting influence where you couldnt essence indepth with the correct number by virtue of errors in either direction. Areas with large numbers of omissions 10 not to be those areas with large numbers of erroneous immigrations. You need to understand what the Census Bureau does in order to inform our strategies. Those communities historically marginalized and under resourced stand to be disproportionately impacted. Those that have been historically hard to count, black and latino neighborhoods, immigrant communities. Foreignborns 40 residents and 53 people of color. Households areur single femaleheaded. Weif we dont get this right will see a tsunami across this issue. Your time has expired. It will continue for 10 years and basically reinforce inequities that were preexisting, like i said, for the next 10 years. I now recognize the senator. Chair. K you, madam before i begin my questions, let me say this. You and yourte members fair desire to ensure the integrity of the census, and i appreciate your willingness to hold additional hearings on that. I wish you all had the same sincere desire to ensure the election,of the 2020 because a lot of americans expect congress to at least hold that,earings, and ensure moving forward, we dont have any doubts about the integrity of our election. That is the role that this committee can play. That is your decision, and i strongly encourage you once again to allow us to have a hearing as soon as possible on the integrity of the 2020 election. Having said that, i want to onnk attorney general landry a topic thats very important. I hope that his testimony in the Community Today helps everyone have a better understanding of the president s action on apportionment, and excluding illegal aliens from the apportionment count. Monday the Supreme Court heard an amicusin new york, brief on behalf of your state and several others, is that correct . It is correct. Filingyou tell us why that brief is so important to those in louisiana and other states as well . In they american citizen and otherouisiana ,ural states around the country by counting illegal aliens for the purpose of reapportionment disenfranchises minorities in louisiana. It disenfranchises Senior Citizens in louisiana, and it can restrict the amount of federal resources that those communities who need them the most in those particular states, and those resources will then gravitate and migrate to states that embrace sanctuary city policies, defying federal law. Each states Member Congress is their voice in washington. Notng a voice to those that . T dilutes , correct it shows a wrench into the machinery of congressional apportionment. Ifagain, what happens is, you count illegal aliens in the country, what you will find is that those populations have swelled in states that have been have embrace sanctuary city policies. States like new york and california that will gain additional congressional at the expense of states like minnesota, alabama, and ohio. So basically, you are creating Congressional Districts that represent people who came into their country illegally. Rights,not enjoy the the complete rights and. Rivileges of american citizens that a voterse voting one Congressional District should be worth equally as much as any other persons vote in any other district . Thats correct. Lets take, for instance, we all recognize, it is not disputed by any of the members that the secretary of commerce has tourists, people who are here in the United States on tourist visas from being counted in the census. Yet if that person, under their theory, by counting them, stays in the country past the point of their visa, for some reason they again, it leads to absurd consequences. Agree that apportionment according to the whole number of persons in the state could reasonably be interpreted to exclude illegal aliens even though they are residing in the United States unlawfully . Let me conclude my questioning by saying this. I think an overwhelming majority of americans agree with everything you said, mr. Attorney general. Thats the position that the republicans on this committee have taken, and hopefully the Supreme Court and the Trump Administration will be able to do the right thing on congressional reapportionment. Thank you again for your testimony here today. You are now recognized for five minutes. Thank you also much for being here. The letter that i sent along about someoman of the allegations weve seen come out in regard to the 2020 in michigan. 20 ,esponse rate was about with some tracks as low as 4. 4 . What does it mean when you say is it me getting the form and responding to it directly . Also been a huge internet response option. This was an option that they had in effect, almost 80 of the responses they got, of self responses, came through the internet. So the next strategy for the employee all the policies and protocols and things like that so they can get a more accurate account. What are some of the other processes they have in place . Would berst big step hundred thousand census takers going out and knocking on doors. Unsuccessful, they would then use of proxy, knowledgeable person that could complete that for them. Withalso supplemented that administrative records, and at the inn, if neither of those work, there will be a small category for they will use statistical imputation. [indiscernible] organizing and doing that stage that was talked about. There are multiple types of outreach programs. It was alleged the bureau did not file proper protocols and necessary supports for every person. Mr. Benson had publicly said that he was a census worker in Macomb County which is a nearby iunty to my district, which represent wayne county. It was handled extremely well. He specifically said what i found was, when i reach out to people i knew working in the entire census, they had not even started yet. Received any cases. These are census workers in detroit. [indiscernible] proxies, it was unsafe and unorganized. Some days i could read cases until 5 00 p. M. Given there were around 100,000 nonresponding detroit households that need to be istacted, why [indiscernible] important with these Response Rates . Provides thense best data. Research clearly shows this, the Census Bureaus own research. Now, therecated just are a whole number of options that can rule the day, so to speak. For example, the use of administrative records to determine whether a unit is occupied or not. Rep. Tlaib i know what you mean, but its important for theracy, and these are processes. What if the processes werent followed . Many are looking to see what the federal number is, but you know. This means that communities like mine are going to get undercounted because they did not apply the same standards in detroit as they did in nearby now a number of families of color like it is in wayne county. That is beenn, established. What we have to figure out is whether every census has people who come forward. The metrics that were mentioned will give us a look into that world. It is data about the process. That information will give us a glimpse into what youre talking about. That is one of the reasons why we have to get it, because if were going to have confidence that detroit will be properly enumerated, we have to get our hands on that information. Rep. Tlaib i would love to work with you directly in making sure , and again, information is going to come out. I urge our committee to play a leadership role. Without having enough folks on the ground and being able to get folks back to work again, for , im not to have enough work just do think we need to fully investigate that. Rep. Maloney thats a good point. Our last questioner is vice chair jimmy gomez. You are now recognize. Chair. K you, madam i really appreciate that we are having this hearing. The census is something weve cared about since i got to congress, and something i been working on. A lot of my fears came true. Anylowest response of Congressional District in california, and probably one of the lowest ones nationwide. So we have been concerned and we have been asking for documents from the Census Bureau or the promised Commerce Department time and time again to get the documents and hear about the issue from the press is really disheartening. So i have some questions that i , so haskind of get into the Census Bureau provided all the information to gir that you requested about the data anomalies discovered by career staff at the bureau . That itnderstanding is is under review by the general counsel. The department of commerce said the department of justice should be bound up with the litigation. Bureau talked about the number of times they have been identified . No sir, they have not, for the same reasons. Is at the first time the department of congress has withheld information and declined to answer questions from the gao . Been it certainly has gotten more problematic in recent months and certainly since the middle of december it has been very difficult to get information. We have not been flat out denied anything, but things are taking an extraordinary amount of time. For instance, the plan that was announced in august, we are still waiting for detailed information on that. In particular, how the Census Bureau was going to be able to take what had originally been a 150 day plant processing, then it went down to 90, and now the deadline will be 77 days. We just want to be able to say how are you going to do that . So we are waiting for information on that anyway. They were supposed to explain it ahead of time before they did it. Its over, the count is done, and you still havent received any of that information. I will give you one for typical one particular example. The state typically has subject reviews that review all the data. On the basis of these reviews, every single state had to have their numbers rerun. It may have identified questions are things that were sufficient that we were in the numbers. The Time Available for these this time around, we want to know what if anything has been cut out of that, or what are they doing to make sure it will still be a quality review . Again, we are waiting on the department of commerce. Im glad you brought it up because some in my state have been concerned about how that will impact. So thank you for bringing that up. Of the past few years, how many recommendations have the bureau given to the Census Bureau . 120 declarations and the great majority of those have been accepted by the Census Bureau and we been able to make improvements as a result of that. Getting us access to the information is helpful to us. Its good from a transparency standpoint but it also helps us dinner five targeted and specific improvement opportunities which our experience has shown leads to an improved census. So it isnt just a geeky access kind of issue. This helps us, actually helps the bureau improve the undertaking of the census. Numberou have a rough that they have accepted and implemented . Almost 120 over 90 of them have been accepted. The report we are issuing today that talks about the need for the transparency on the data that weve been discussing all throughout this hearing, that is one where the Commerce Department has accepted that recommendation and we are hoping that will be implement it as well. Thank you so much. It is to improve the process, so i want to thank you. Also i applaud the chairwomans efforts to obtain the critical documents from the department of commerce. I would like to ask if the committee sent a request for the information gao is seeking as well. Theres no reason this committee as the states well demographers, when it comes to their request for information and how that is impacting how much information it got, what is then cut out. That their, we know secretary is withholding the documents from us and they basically admitted they are concealing it from the judiciary. I think we need more transparency. [indiscernible] the gentlemans time has expired. You are now recognize. Thank you, madam chair. It is our responsibility to hold hearings to ensure the integrity of the 2020 census. Its unfortunate that we didnt have any witnesses from the staff, employees of the Census Bureau. I think that all the data that we been given proves that everything is going according to director i applaud dealing him. I think hes been transparent with both democrats and republicans on the committee. I look forward to getting that census data and hopefully we will be able to do what a toority of americans want, have a true and accurate count of every Single Person in america, and we will have a count that issues for congressional reapportionment that excludes all undocumented immigrants. Thats what the American People want, and thats what our position is. Be able toill achieve that. With that i yield back. Rep. Maloney the gentleman yields back. Clear. Sage is loud and the 2020 census is in grave danger. Testified today that data errors identified by career officials at the Census Bureau are serious, and must be fixed. They warned that if the Trump Administration cuts short the process of fixing the problem, the census count risk being inaccurate and incomplete. We call this hearing because the Trump Administration refused to share information with this committee about these Critical Data errors. We had to learn about these major problems from reading the newspaper. When we ask for documents about these problems, the Commerce Department blocks them. Thank fleet we were able to rely on other sources to get at least some of these internal documents. We went to secretary ross yesterday at gave him one week to produce a complete and unredacted set of documents. , that heted last month could very well face a subpoena. Im open torlier, calling secretary ross to testify under oath before this committee that he does not produce the document that we requested. In closing, i want to thank our panelists for their remarks and i want to commend my colleagues for participating in this important hearing. , all members have five days with which to submit additional questions which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. I ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you are able. Announcer you are watching cspan, your unfiltered view of government, created by Americas Company as a Public Service and brought to you by your Cable Television provider. Announcer coming up friday, the house returns for a debate on the marijuana decriminalization bill at 9 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. At 2 45 p. M. , former president barack obama and a Virtual Campaign rally for georgias Democratic Senate candidates for jon ossoff and raphael warnock, facing Runoff Election on january 5. On cspan two 8 30 a. M. , former House Speaker john boehner, former casper tatian secretary Rodney Slater look at the key decisions in the transition from a Trump Administration to a biden administration. At 10 45 a. M. , how Speaker Pelosi holds her Weekly Briefing with reporters. A billtico discusses that will dein