Transcripts For CSPAN IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig Testifies Before House Ways Means... 20240711

Joining us today. We are holding this hybrid hearing in compliance with House Resolution accordingly i am 965. Joined by members here in the hearing room as well as approximately ten members on the remote platform. Thats outstanding, and i want to thank them for joining us. Before we turn to todays important topic i want to remind the members of a few procedures to help us navigate the terrain here. First, consistent with regulations the committee will keep microphones muted. For those participating virtually to limit background noise. Pause for one moment. So we will pause for one moment. Members are responsible for unmuting themselves, unmuting themselves when they seek recognition or when recognized for their five minutes. Members here in the hearing room also are reminded to keep your microphones muted when you are not recognized. Second, for the members participating virtually, you must have your cameras on at all times. If you need to step away from the proceeding, please leave your camera on rather than logging out. Third, we will dispense with our practice of observing the gibbons rule and instead go in order of seniority for questioning. Alternating between minority and majority, beginning with members of the oversight subcommittee, of course. I thank you all for your we are troubleshooting a quick technical issue, trying to get the streaming from 1100 to up. It will just be another minute, so youre aware the audio is streaming on youtube already. So the video will be going live as well. Once we get this on. I thank you all for your continued patience as we navigate these new procedures in order to continue serving our country together in this great time of need and with that i will now turn to the important topic of todays hearing. A conversation with the commissioner on the Internal Revenue service. Thats why were here. So good morning. I welcome my colleagues and our only witness. Today the commissioner of the Internal Revenue service, mr. Charles rettig, will join us and i appreciate that personally and professionally. Mr. Rettig, this committee has waited a long time for you to join us, and for we already looking anxiously, waiting anxiously. Nearly two years. It is astonishing this is the first time youre appearing before the chief Tax Writing Committee in the house. I mean, put yourself in our shoes, were trying to do our job, youre trying to do your job, and we have very little communication. With a brand new administration on the horizon this may be your first or your last appearance before us. Before us. Im not suggesting either, but the point of the matter is were glad youre here. Im disappointed you refused to join us for our important hearing on taxpayer fairness a few weeks ago. The United States has had an excellent record of compliance with our tax laws. Americans dutifully pay their taxes assuming the system is fair for all. Whether youre rich as rockefeller or just a regular joe, because of that our voluntary system, tax system has been a model for the world. It really is. At least until recently. Our hearing demonstrated how our system of voluntary compliance has come under assault but the president. By the president and members of his government for five years. The president refused to disclose his tax returns. The president broke with the history of every president since president nixon. In so doing, he sabotaged public faith in our tax system. You have aided and abetted him. As is your job, i guess. Since 2017 ive led Congress Efforts to request mr. Trumps business and personal tax returns. Not because im a snoop. Im far from it, just the opposite. The law is clear though. Under 26 United States code, section 6103f, our committee is legally and absolutely entitled, our committee is legally and absolutely entitled to review anyone within the executive branch of government, the law is very clear, and for 591 days you and secretary mnuchin have broken the law to keep that hidden. I dont know what were hiding, but we have not known, we have not found out yet. It is our responsibility to restore the Publics Trust in our tax system. The president s business and personal returns must be audited impartially and without political interference. Yet every time we ask a question, were reminded its still being audited since 2016, before 2016. So we have some questions. The American People have a right to know whether thats whats going on. Time is of the essence. Just last month the New York Times reported that selfproclaimed billionaire mr. Trump paid only 750 in taxes in 20172018. 750. And in 10 of the last 15 years, he reportedly paid no taxes. When you listen to the explanation of why that happened having nothing to do with you, but when you listen to it, you have to wonder is this reading out of a cartoon magazine, or is this really happening . Is this a fantasy or reality . The teachers and firefighters, police officers, the people who collect our garbage in our districts are paying a heck of a lot more. The taxpayer fairness issue manifests itself in many other ways, mr. Commissioner. We hear over and over from our constituents who have failed to receive their Economic Impact payments. Im very angry over that, and im sure you are too. Time and time again. I look forward to discussing how the irs is rectifying these dire situations. No one who is eligible should have to wait for their check especially during a pandemic. We are hearing similar complaints about 2019 refunds. Our constituents have waited for months to get their refunds and their records straight. I have a constituent who was told not to expect a response from the irs on her 2019 return until january. January . I want to know if that is acceptable to you. I hope you will bring us uptodate on your efforts to get through the backlog in returns and collecting dust at the irs. Mr. Commissioner, well be following up on my question at the oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing. Are you not auditing wealthy taxpayers and corporations more, tensively than more extensively than low income meshes. Let me now yield to few good friend if, the gentle lady from indiana finish. Thank you were honored that youre here. Thank you, mr. Chairman youve got five minutes. Im thrilled to be here. Id also like to thank you, mr. Are rettig, for your hard work at the irs. I also want the thank the dedicated men and women of the irs that have worked so hard to keep the agency up and running, to provide services to our fellow american taxpayers. Congress has asked the irs to go above and beyond this year in response to the coronavirus crisis. The cares act required that the irs talk on a number of tax tasks tasks, but none was greater than sending the Economic Impact payments to more than 160 million americans. That was a huge undertaking, and we should acknowledge that the irs got most of those payments out the door in just a matter of weeks, so we thank you for that, commissioner. Now, with that said, i think all acknowledge the irs still faces a number of challenging things Going Forward, and i have concerns about how the agency plans to meet those challenges. Theres a few main issues i think the agency needs to address. I hope youll be able to provide the committee with some answers on how the agency plans to do so. Im concerned about the current backlog of mail and unprosed returns that has unprocessed returns. My understanding is that the irs has millions of pieces of unopened mail and an even greater number of unprocessed tax returns. That means millions of taxpayers are still baiting on refunds for tax returns they filed as far back as march and april. Second, given that this mail backlog may not be resolved well until 2021, im concerned about the agencys ability to prepare for what is likely to be another major and difficult Filing Season. Third, on the eip payments, or ill saw that the number of payments you is sent out and how quickly you did so was incredible, but i have heard from a lot of my constituents and i know my colleagues have as well about the situation where folks are still eligible but still have not received anything. So i would appreciate hearing more about what the irs has done and will do to make sure everyones who is eligible for an eid receives their payment. And then i also want to acknowledge that the irs this week released guy e dance on the Paycheck Protection Program related to the tax treatment of expenses paid with a ppp loan that have not been forgiven. Many Small Businesses are struggling to stay abloat all over this country. A afloat all over this country. We need to pull together to insure these Small Businesses have relief, especially those forced to close their doors due to state and local covid restrictions. Id also like an update on the bipartisan Taxpayer First act. As you know, we enacted this important law last as a result of bipartisan work. This historic overhaul of the irs requires implementation work on the part of the agency, and id appreciate an update on your progress and what challenges youre nation. I want to make sure we dont let our response to the pandemic hinder the longterm work that still needs to be done to improve and modernize the irs. With that, i thank the commissioner for his testimony, and i yield back, mr. Chairman. Yes. We will dismiss mr. Kelly. Well next hear from our only witness x that is commissioner rettig. And i thank him again for appearing before us today. Your Opening Statement will be made part of the record in its entirety. I ask that you summarize your testimony in five minutes or less. To help you with that time, please keep an eye on the clock. The lights in front of you. If you do go over your time, ill notify we a tap of my gavel, but were here to listen to you. Commissioner, you may begin. Thank you, chairman pascrell, Ranking Member and the rest of the members who are here. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss irs operations and our efforts to help taxpayers during the covid19 situation. Initially, mr. Chairman, respectfully, i would like to indicate that i disagree and take exception to the terminology awedded and abetted, but i cannot speak to any matters associated with that since those matters are in litigation as well as those matters involved to specific taxpayer information which im not able to discuss. But i respectfully wanted to make the record on that for you, sir. Now more than two years into my term as commissioner of the irs, i remain extremely proud to be working with the irs and the exceptional employees at the Internal Revenue service. Knowing that 96 of the gross receipts of our country flow through the irs has strengthened that my belief that its critical to the success and wellbeing of our country. The importance of the irs to every american has become especially apparent since the spring as our nation has faced unprecedented challenges. The irs has been at the forefront of successfully providing rapid Economic Relief to taxpayers during covid19. The response serves to illustrate how critical it is for the agency to receive consistent, timely and adequate multiyear funding such that we can success seed in providing succeed in providing the services that our country and our citizens so rightly deserve. Employees have worked since mid march to implement major provisions of the cares act, especially the Economic Impact payments which have helped millions of americans during these challenging times. So far approximately 160 million Economic Impact payments have been issued totaling about 270 billion. Many of these payments recognize more than two people in a family. Delivering the Economic Impact payments, the Internal Revenue Service Employees balance the statutory requirement to deliver these payments, quote, as rapidly as possible as dictated by the cares act with the need for accuracy and a concern about potential fraud. The irs correctly computed the amount of the payments of the first 157 million payments according to our Inspector General 98 of the time. I think thats miraculous, and its a tribute to the strength of our employees and the dedication of our employees. However, we readily acknowledge that there is more to do. Although the strength of our employee our agency is the employees, the interaction of our employees in the communities in which they reside is equal lu important. During this period of time, our employees have been out, involved in and engaged with community, local Community Organizations trying to generate Economic Impact payments for people who are needy. Were essentially to the point of interacting with the unsheltered communities. We have interacted directly with more than 4,000 homeless shelters, numerous different os around the country. Ill have more specifically set forth in my more lengthy written testimony. Tomorrow is the deadline for registration of the Economic Impact payments on our nonfilers portal, and i would like to encourage people who have not yet provided information through the portal to do so. During the pandemic within a matter of days we initiated the People First Initiative which postponed the deadline for filing to july 15th, the latest time in the history of our country. We also temporarily adjusted numerous processes to help people and businesses during these uncertain times. As we will discuss, we have also just delivered a historic Filing Season 20 not only in terms 2020, not only in terms of the volume of tax returns that have been processed, refunds that have been processed, but also in terms of the number of tax returns processed per minute and per second. We have, importantly and one of the matters that im probably as proud as anything else, and we have a lot to be proud of, and i do want to, tend the opportunity to meet extend the opportunity to meet with each of you at your leisure, when you ask we will be there, but importantly, for the first time in the history of the Internal Revenue service, we will be delivering the form 1040 this year in both english and spanish. Taxpayers will have the opportunity to check a box to indicate the language they wish us to interact with them. Taxpayers who call on our phone lines will have the option to receive Translation Services in more than 350 languages. Is so when i got onboard, these numbers were between 699, and this all came 69, and this all came together i opened the doors for our employees, but our employees proudly walked through these doors to provide services in the underserved communities of our country. Our phasedin reopening was couched in terms of trying to mountain the health and safety of our employees, balancing that with our responsibilities to this country which we take seriously. And, sir, before i turn it back over to you, i would be remiss if i didnt call attention to somebody whos been by my side since i came on board two years ago who has been at every hearing that ive testified in the house as well as the senate. And, respectfully, is more than my right hand. The person i look up to more than probably nub else in the Internal Revenue service who is not only a sounding board, but is sitting right behind me, diane grant. On december 1 of this year, we are celebrating her 50th anniversary with the Internal Revenue service, and i do appreciate, sir, your with acknowledgment of her. Shes an amazing individual. [applause] now that ive embarrassed her, sir, i will turn it back to the committee. Im glad, commissioner, to hear somebody Say Something nice about our employees, and you have sir, i came onboard for the employees, taxpayers and you guys. Thank you for bringing that to our attention, and congratulations, ms. Grant. I will open the hearing for questions. Without objection, each member will be recognized, and we are joined by my good friend, mr. Kelly from pennsylvania, who walked all the way from pennsylvania to get here this morning. [laughter] each member will be recognized for five minutes to question our witness. If the witness will respond with short and concise answers, if the congressmen will ask questions short and concise. Thats unusual but well try. All members should be able to ask questions. As mentioned earlier, we will not observe the gibbons rule, we will instead go in order of seniority for questioning. Alternating between minority majority beginning with members of the oversight subcommittee. Members awe tending remotely are reminded to unmute yourselves when youre recognizing for five minutes. Ill recognize myself for five minutes, mr. Commissioner. Mr. Rettig, when President Trump took office, former Congress Former commissioner koskinen volunteered to resign before his term ended. You stated this week that you plan to finish your term. That term ends in 2022, if im not mistaken. Do you agree that you serve at the pleasure of the president , yes or no . Yes. Mr. Rettig says yes, and i want to thank the commissioner. Im glad we agree. Will you proffer your resignation to president elect biden, yes or no . No. If relate ugh well, youre saying no to that particular question, right . Right. Im asking you, mr. Commissioner, to proffer your resignation to the incoming president to facilitate the transition to the new administration, and i recommend that it be accepted. Mr. Commissioner, under a new administration, if you are asked to provide soontobe former President Trumps tax returns to the committee, will you ply . Ply will you comply . Sir, as you are aware, i cannot discuss issues pertaining to the tax returns because they are involved in litigation. So youre not answering that question. Im not asking anything but will you provide if youre asked . Sir and you answered no. Im not going to speculate, and i can so you doesnt answer no. You said youre not going to answer at this time. I cannot answer the question, sir. Mr. Commissioner, Internal Revenue code section 6103f, and you are familiar with that by now, correct . Correct. Gives the committee clear and unambiguous authority to obtain anyones tax returns. In fact, the irs has never before denied the Committee Access to any tax returns requested under this particular authority. Mr. Commissioner, with the current backlogs, will the 2021 tax Filing Season start in january . And if not, what month do you expect it will begin . We are currently we actually accelerated our programming testing. Weve gone through health testses for our equipment and our technology and what not. With we accelerated that by more than a month so that we would be prepared since we were not aware of what might happen with respect to continuing resolution or a lapse. To we are on schedule so we are on schedule. And per our acting chief information officer, we are cautiously optimistic which is for a riskawe verse agency, the highest level of assurance that we can give you, that we will open on time. We conot make the time determination and have never made the time determination until mid april. Once we have gone through the rigors of our programming, testing, development, and we actually test, you know, i think the number is more than a million returns before we indicate that were ready to go. Finish historically, tax season has opened in the end of january. I think on occasion it has happened early in february. And we have no reason to believe that itll be plait orer than that time later than that time frame. But we will advise you if there is something that causes that to change. Well, mr. Commissioner, do you intend to tell the president elect before he a raises his hand on january 20th whether or not, where where we are in the schedule anyway . Do you think his administration, the next administration regardless of who it is deserves to know beforehand and at that transitional point . Will you tell them and give them any information in. Sir, my interactions with not with the white house. My interactions are with treasury. And so that would be the course of conduct and discussions that i would have with people. I mentioned in my Opening Statement im extremely concerned but e the unfairness in the irs audit priorities. With many low income taxpayers, especially eitc recipients, being audited more than wealthy individuals that easton record thats on the record. While i do not have a specific question at this time, i want you to know that ive asked the gao to provide data on audits by income group to the congress. I think its important enough to look into. Mr. Commissioner, im concerned by the recent executive order that would reclassify what you called at your confirmation hearing absolutely world class career irs workers as political appointees. This would undermine the impartialitity of the irs. How has the irs taken any steps on this executive order, and how many employees do you expect to reclassify . The executive order is under review. As i understand it, it requires a response on january 19th, and i would support the comment that i made before and i think that you endorsed that we do have world class employees, and we have demonstrated that every single day during my two years and before i came on board. Yeah, i have no problems with the employees, as you well know. My problem is before you got here too how they are, how we operate daytoday. How we put a budget together. And since youre part of the administration, is your idea of the budget the same as the president s. The way that you talk, you brought up the subject, i didnt, of funding. Are you satisfied with the you dont have to answer this question. Rhetorical question, are you satisfied with the funding of the irs at this particular time. Including personnel. I know what the numbers are every year since 2010. And i know when each president submits his budget as every other congressman does, and i know what we final will e vote on. Can i respond, sir . I didnt ask a question. I know that. I now recognize ms. Walorski for five minnesotas to ask her questions minutes to ask her questions and thank her for staying. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Commissioner rettig, i wanted to switch gears for a second. My office has experienced some difficulty in resolving constituent case work due to the backlog at the kansas city error resolution operation. Few understanding is the current backlog is close to 60 days, so i know my office isnt alone in the concern that the irs has a backlog of approximately 3 million pieces of unopened mail and 7. 6 million unprocessed tax returns. Im fully aware that the pandemic has taken a significant toll on all of your operations, and i know we have to do better. Ing i have hard working hoosiers who need a swift resolution to their cases so they can continue to put food on the table. Given many irs employees have been on covidrelated leave for months, can you give us any kind of a quick update on the operating status at the Kansas City Center . And then how do we plan to get through this backlog . Yeah. Let me, will the me clarify that the unprocessed return inventory is about 1 million. O. K. The mail backlog is about 3 million. Okay. The returns in process, which means theyve gone through the system and theyre about to be posted, is 6. 8 million. Okay. And as weve carried into fiscal 21, were a little bit higher on our carryover from fiscal 20 to fiscal 21, but not noteworthy e in terms of risks to the operations. Okay. If you will. And in terms of the kansas city and simply the other three submission processing sites, kansas city is about six weeks behind. We have actually transshipped paper to some of the sites, memphis, fresno e and austin, and some of the sites, one of the sites that we have on november 7 was processing receipts that came in november 6th. Another site on november 7 was processing receipts that came in on november 2nd. The third one, i think, is about october 20 on november 7. They were that caught up, and kansas city was at october 2nd. We have actually, were working split shifts, and obviously, were socially distanced, but given the fact we have so many people teleworking, we hit our high this week of 59,000 employees teleworking which is definitely a record for us. That has given us more space so we can socially distance in spas where previously we had employees sitting and doing something else. So we have really done all we can do. Weve also offered the processing employees overtime and weekend work. And what i can say is, you know, on behalf of the Internal Revenue service and every employee for literally every american, we appreciate the patience and understanding they have had with us. This is not an excuse, but i will say that to our employees went through the same exact thing as every other american during covid with respect to health and safety concerns for themself, for their family, for their neighborhood, their community, and it was a highly uncertain thing. To the extent its created significant hardships, were doing our best. I was doing my best. Uhhuh. I was with one of my idols behind me, and we were trying to figure out everything we could to on a daily basis to lessen burden on people. We did not always, nor would anybody else, get things right. I do think as far as a federal agency that we did at least as well as any other federal agency given the monumental tasks we inherited in terms of eips and all the business issues. And we took on eip programming for both the veterans administration, Social Security administration while we were doing our filing system which is our normal high risk sure. But at the end of the day, i am the person that shut down about 51 of our facilities 511 of our facilities at the end of march based on health and safety concerns for our employees. And im also the person that was instrumental in figuring out how we would do a phasedin reopening. And we have a covid czar, if you will, who not onlier sewer acted with other interacted with other federal agencies, but around the world as to what they were doing to lessen the burden on their people and let them know what we were doing similarly. I will say we tried our best. An example of where you all have a right the complain is we did the congressional mailbox. That was an effort to be able, for us to be able to work those unbounds overnight rather than a phone situation where we were not going to be able to answer the volume of phones that were coming in. That was one of my bright ideas, thinking, well, lets put them in this congressional mailbox. It got overrun and created a series of problems on its own. On a go forward, which you all have questions about, we now have a webbased scenario that were doing. So you dont have to go into an email inbox and get transferred several down. We have lessons learned, as you would hope. And i think i appreciate it. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back. To members in atten dance and consistent with committee guidance, we will move to 21 questioning. The chair now recognizes ms. Dell vainny for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Youre welcome. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thank you, commissioner, for joining us today. In july i led a bipartisan letter with 111 of my colleagues detailing concerns that our constituents have raised regarding the Economic Impact payments. Since the cares act was signed into law, ive had several constituents reach out who are facing Financial Hardship due to the covid19 pandemic, and theyre still waiting for their Economic Impact payment or are waiting for an error in their eip to be resolved. In your response to our let ier, and you referred to this a little bit ago, you cited technical [inaudible] eip mailbox. You said ethos challenges are, quote attributable to the capacity of the system being used by the mailbox and the mandatory tools on the platform, end quote. Commissioner, we talked a little bit about what youd do differently. What do we need to do, what technical challenges do you face and systems modernization is a very important issue at the irs. I wonder if you can address what needs to happen in order to make sure we can respond better to issues like this in the future. Thank you. And as i indicated, i am the person who made the decision on the mailbox. We implemented that within a matter of days. It seemed like the right decision at the time. It did get overrun, and i think i have and i will continue to apologize. In terms of modernization, in april of 2018 the irs issued its modernization plan which was a sixyear plan with the funding requirement between 2. 32. 7 billion. The first two years of that plan the funding that has been allocated has been about half of what was requested. And, therefore, obviously, its extended beyond a sixyear time frame. So we have and would certainly welcome the opportunity to sit with you to go through what we are planning for modernization both under our modernization plan as well as youre aware that were implementing a plan which we will deliver soon up on the hill, the tack i payer first act, which has its independent set of modernization features and what not. But the last part of your comment, i think, is, you know, what can you expect from us Going Forward. What you can expect from us Going Forward is we have lessons learned, we have a lot of partnerships and a lot of industry specialists on the outside that we contract with. So its not an irs alone project in terms of modernization, and i would include congress in that same feature. Our staff has done a lot of briefings on the hull. We would continue to do so. So, if invited, we will come up to the hill to do briefings where we are with respect to modernization, and i think youre going to receive briefings either, you know, depending upon calendars, but either in december or early january with respect to the Taxpayer First act which has also an independent set of significant modernization features to it. Mr. Commissioner, how would your i e rs plans for fiscal year 21 be cut back if funding is not increased over the fiscal year 20 level . We know that Senate Appropriators have not increased irs funding, so what would happen if that does not increase in fiscal year 2021 . The history has a the agency has a history to reacting to funding challenges, lets say that. And we operate in a variety of ways. I think youre aware about 70 of our budget is staffing, and then we have significant rates of attrition. So not by choice, but that tends to be one of the first issues that goes. We do not cut funding for our missioncritical core activities, nor would we we. But we will adjust, and we will adjust as the agency has done throughout. I would like to make one quick point also in addition to all of that. I believe that just about every Administration Since 2010 has made a request in the administrations budget for a Program Integrity cap which is specialized funding specifically addressing and appropriated for enforcement activity. And i believe that since 2010 that has never been approved or funded. And so as long as im here, if i could take that opportunity to make a pitch that, you know, it would help if folks would look in that direction for the agency. I understand the importance of modernizing technology. Having a great work force is also critically important, so those cutbacks are having an impact on our constituents and the response they get. So i appreciate you raising how critical it is that we have those resources available. My times expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yell back. Thank you. Has expired. And were going to continue 21 questioning. Im going to call on in a second ms. Sanchez from california, the gentlelady. But i want to say this, commissioner, since 19 2010, rather, and in the last years leading up til now, in the enforcement area which is under your guidance and responsibility weve gone from 50,524 employees you know these figures better than i to 33,529. Thats down 17,000 employees. Thats all wonderful and we both agree to praise the workers because they very seldom get it. But these are our numbers. Employees did not vote for this. And in the taxpayer service, it went from, its less of a hit, went from 32,029, so thats a 3,000 difference. You cannot enforce the law are, i would say and you may discuss agree with me with 17,000 less employees than you had nine, ten years ago. Sir, im not only going to disagree with you, but i will i think its appropriate at this time to indicate that from 2011 to 2018 we had a hiring freeze as well. So with adistribution and a hiring freeze, i will say two commissioners ago made comments that well do more with less. The last commissioner indicated well do less with less, and i have not said that because i think that puts the burden on our employees. And the ones who are with us are working really hard and get it, and they want to do it. What i have said during my two years is we want to do more. We will work we dont vote for funding. We will work within the funding that we receive. Its my job and the job of our Leadership Team toal to allocate that funding as best and appropriate as we can. And youve heard us or should have heard us talk about being in every neighborhood. I now ask the general california sanchez five minutes. Thank you for joining us. Hearing in which the irs has unfairly focused on the wrong population for us. All taxpayers to tax systems thats unacceptable. Pacifically, the audit rate taxpayers earning over 1 million a year. As im sure you likely know, the taxpayers has been cut but the Automated Program for low income taxpayers is chugging along at higher rates. Weve recently had testimony from experts regarding how audits pass and deter cheating. Do you agree it deters cheating . Fly a greek i missed the last part. Do you agree that they deter cheating . Correct. What is your agency chewing seeing to go after far higher rates while its unchecked . I believe you are referring to the earned income tax credit examinations which are correspondence with what we perform no. Mr. Commissioner, i am referring to audit overall. Overall, taxpayers can make over 1 million, audit rates have been cut in half and yet, for low income americans, the audit rates have continued to increa increase. Why are you not equally enforcing tax laws across income levels . We are. Id be willing to sit with you to walk you through the statistics on that as far as also the staffing we have on that. I can tell you every experience revenue agent which are top examiners have focused on high income taxpayers that are not focused on lower income taxpayers i appreciate the opportunity. I welcome the opportunity because i think most americans, nobody loves to pay taxes but most americans feel they dont mind paying their fair share, everybody is paying their fair share but will sit down at a later date and go through the statistics with you. Wealthy americans are not being scrutinized and income americans are its no wonder they feel frustrated that they are being targeted for the americans of a different experience altogether but will sit down at a future date because i will take you up on that because i absolutely know for fact that it is true. Im not looking to debate the issue. Another issue thats important, reports that suggest the irs backlogs may prevent some americans from advanced payment of the tax credit for the 2021 Marketplace Health coverage. That delay could be them to become uninsured. I want to know if the irs can you will commit to working with others in the administration to fix the issue during an ongoing pandemic. Unless you disagree, i think it is important for people to have their healthcare coverage during a pandemic. Could you provide an update in writing on the back wall as well as an assessment of how many people eligible are potentially impacted . To have a commitment on that . Yes, can i give a brief comment . Individual attests to the as of january 1, the cms comes back in march to reconcile that so there is no involvement or lack of involvement that would preclude anyone in this country from receiving insurance. We can certainly go through that either later today or next week or at your convenience and provide the information. I did read the same thing. I would appreciate your cooperation with that. I have no further questions. Your time has expired and i am glad we agree this is a critical issue that she has featured. Weve seen numbers where the audits happening and over the years how theyve changed. We have solid numbers they would verify and get to numbers of not only this committee but perhaps everybody should know. I want to thank you for bringing that issue. The only the issue but you are very explicit was that. The gentleman from pennsylvania, five minutes. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for being here today. I want to mention a piece of legislation, personal Health Investment today, it would allow for the reimbursement of physical activity using pretax dollars to allow folks to use the money and to do this, we propose an expansion, definition of medical expenses to include qualified physical activities like health club dues and shoe size classes for disease prevention. These expenses would go a long way toward helping to encourage people to engage in this exercise in a healthy lifestyle. One other thing id like to mention, this was a big day for all of us. The implementation act, it was a great day for us. One of the things looking back at the time spent with mr. Lewis, requires longterm communication by the agency, the challenges youre facing, is there anything you need from congress to help out with that . Funding. The act passed with no funding attached to it. So we ask you to do it with no money to do it. My kids tell me that all the time, to. I want to bring up the audit rate thing because somehow, we get rolled around and if you say it long enough and loud enough, some people listen to it and say the must be true to it or they wouldnt keep saying it but i want to go over this because ms. Sanchez brought up a good heart, when it comes to the tax credit, the fact that somehow we are going after these folks at a much higher rate than we would people that are higher income so to reiterate what you said, back in october, taxpayers with incomes over 10 million a year, 8. 16 . For taxpayers with an income over 5 million, the audit rate is around 4 . For taxpayers with an income between one 4 million, the audit rate is around 3 . 1. 129 . I have a degree in math but i do have the ability to look at the numbers and if anybody can tell me that somehow recipients are being audited more than anybody else, the figures dont lie. Its not magic, it is math. I think we can clear this up. The truth is, it doesnt exist. Yes. The chairman asked about the numbers as well. The numbers are published annually in our databook. The last published date of august 2019, which we will make available to every member of your subcommittee. 2020 databook, sometime in march, april next year. Individuals over 10 million is 8. 16 . Individuals five to 10 million 4. 39 . One to 5 million is 2. 39 and the itc is 1. 1 . Id like to indicate that there is no focus on lower income taxpayers and no focus on Internal Revenue service on any systems in respect to the individuals with any of these taxpayer groups but people indicate their focus on lower income individuals, whoever is in that population in the Selection Process that we dont look to the characteristics than what it should be in a return in an audit selection but annually in the last fiscal 19 in the itc world, about 25 Million People funding 63 billion and there was a 25 improper payment rate which means Internal Revenue service pay for fiscal 19, the group we were unable to verify, they were entitled to it. I agree with every member on this committee that this is important money for important people. It is a subsidy my personal belief is getting to the right people, a subsidy characterized the Internal Revenue code given the response ability to the tax administrator on some things that are complex code itself for the itc needs to be oppressed by congress to the appropriate i appreciate that. This committee is responsible for oversight and what we are talking about his hard earned dollars of american taxpayers. Anybody with a 25 improper payment rate, nobody would run a private business like that if things were just okay. I agree and appreciate the time you put in. Mr. Chairman, i yelled back. We need to look at this, we already talked about this, i think. The percentages, i think it is important to look into. With only concentrated on the one aspect. We have concentrated on the fact that there is nothing wrong with that, that is for sure. A force of lawyers, which other people do not have. This is not your fault or problem. The fact is, we have two syste systems, people who have boys and those who dont. If you want to challenge and you want your lawyers to get through loopholes and you have no lawyers, you have no choice either. I think all parties are here and we need to take a look at this because people feel they are being ripped off and if that is not true, we have to clarify it. Please go to mr. Shirazi. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for being here today. Good to have you testified before this committee. We are happy to have you here. Youre in a tough spot. The irs is appointing back as it is and you lost so many resources as an agency since 2010. I know you are a dedicated professional, you have a great background and youre committed Public Servant and youre in a tough spot and then you have the issue with the president , which i hope the treasury secretary doesnt direct you to do it because it has to go through this legislation because you need to demonstrate once and for all of the Committee Reviews the issue of auditing, the irss own regulations to say that you must audit the president and Vice President and review how its been done. It will be important for us to go through. Anyway, youre in a tough position. You agree the irs has had 17000 employees cut since 2010. Do you agree . Those are the statistics. Do you agree staff reductions are about 22 overall. Correct. Revenue agents are down by 35 2010. Correct. As a result, the audit have taken place in our down to 5 since 2010. Correct. I hesitate to say this because the audits are down, we do have technological advances and it does not make up for the drop in stock. We need to improve technology at the irs. At least 3 billion to upgrade technology, correct . Significantly more. How much . If we want to get do the best we can be. With the American People deserve, six 7 billion. Ten to 12 billion a year. We need six or 7 billion. How much goes toward putting in new systems . Versus the old systems . A third. For existing systems . And just for maintenance. Tape and bubble gum to hold it all together we need to upgrade and modernize the irs, Better Technology and money to do that, correct . I agree. More employees for the irs but we need money to do that, right . And train our employees. And we need money to the. The money and we invest, we will make more money i bring more money in in improving the tax cap. Correct. The ratio is, everybody before me has said the same thing, fiv. Five dollars or 7. That doesnt take into account the enforcement which is significant. So one thing we are concerned about is right now, corporations that have over a billion dollars in assets, a billion dollars a year in assets, their audits are down 51 2010, correct . I dont have it in front of me but maybe. For people who make 1 million, in assets or more, they are down 61 2010. The people who make 1 million or more, their audits are down 61 2010 . They are down across the board. So bottom line is, you need more money for technology upgrade, more money for employees. If you have more technology and employees to do a better job auditing, all different types of people, especially those with the most money and you bring in more money, five to seven times more investments. Would also be able to provide Better Service for every american. Thank you. I yield back. The chair now recognizes for five minutes, the gentle lady from california. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I am grateful the irs closed operations for several weeks to protect its own workforce during the initial weeks of the pandemic this spring and recognize it created a huge backlog of mail the irs is still working through. Im disturbed that the irs is continuing to issue notices while processing the backlog of mail. Taxpayers and businesses have been on time are being penalized because the irs is still not processed there filing. I request consent to submit a letter for the record the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants november 5, detailing commonsense options the irs can implement to alleviate Financial Difficulties for these thousands of taxpaye taxpayers. Understand the irs getting expedited phone service for notices sent to taxpayers despite the backlog. You have a current estimate of how large the map mail backlog is . Would you provide rationale for not setting up the process today and whether we can have such a process . I did go through the mail backlog, 3 million pieces of mail backlog which is about 1 million tax returns which is not unusual and for the letters, i know your background as well, 36 years on the outside, i am in touch thousands of practitioners on the outside and what they were asking for was to go beyond the first time and beyond reasonable cause for individuals with a comment saying the first time they had a failure to pay would get an automatic abatement and one comment was somebody already has one of those, they dont get a second one with a default to reasonable cause. We have procedures in place, the individuals were not merely career employees who looked at this but more than ten people who came on board with a similar experience look at this as well and were not willing to provide an open forum for people, professionals particularly might not be addressing their response to billys angus so we took a hard look and other petitioners. They have, they understand your objection to the blanket kind of approval but what they are talking about is an expedited phone service for Tax Professionals to at least make their case. We do have a practitioner priority line. I have personal friends okay, if you could look at that. These are not conversations that have happened. Weve talked quite a bit about your titer annual budgets and decreased workforce is able to conduct audit and i believe congress has to provide irs a resource that needs to enforce our tax codes with the high income individuals who are avoiding taxes altogether and its estimated if there was proper funding, the irs could bring in 1. 3 trillion by 2030 so i know you have had recent calls for a multiyear budget for the irs. In your opinion, are the part of the irs budget that should be prioritized for mandatory spending and if so, what should not be . Should enforcement be a priority . Enforcement is a component of taxpayer service. Taxpayers are compliant need to know taxpayers who are not are at risk so they go together. Modernization, most talk about modernization, they look at it as an ability to provide Better Services for the omelette or this or that. Enforcement is one of our core components and missions and physical enforcement is significant in terms of reading deterrence on the outside so i view it that we need to be in every neighborhood. Unfortunately, weve had 15 priorities, each of which cost 1 dollar to get off the ground and we have 1 dollar. What about the issue of the multiyear spending. That is for modernization as much as anything else and what it does, it side, we get knowledge of a number in europe and often we get it late in the year end we cant actually implement a number by the close of that year end we have to deal with and then we start over next year and the year after the year after. It is difficult for us. Thats why the multiyear component, we can plan accordingly. We can actually acquire it accordingly. Having to do it annually is not the way it should be done. Right. I so hope it would be for enforcement. Yes, i am an enforcement guy. I yield back. Thank you. I want to thank Ranking Member and commissioner for being here today. I appreciate what you did discuss and address. First, all the irs employees in the coronavirus pandemic, a true testament of the irss dedication in delivering quick and meaningful guidance to taxpayers. Was it a matter of weeks after passage of the cares act, the irs and Economic Impact payment for taxpayers . This was real money supporting my constituents and people across the country. The challenges they face in the country faces. Car payments and other living necessities. Moving forward, those who did not receive a payment had the opportunity to claim credit for the 2020 season. If any of my constituents are interested in this credit next year, can you provide details on the process for the credit its as simple as checking a box. There is a schedule worksheet included with the 2020 return to provide for individuals to not only claim the credit but if they received a credit that they disagree with, they can put the worksheet together to get additional credit believe they are entitled to. We obviously check that but it would be part of the return. Is that something distributed already . I have to get back to you on that. Im not sure thats public yet but that is certainly the concept. Okay. Changing topics. Id like to discuss, i know its been mentioned previously, the modernization effort. Many taxpayers face challenges due to the close Taxpayer Assistance Centers and limited staff and wait times with call centers. The situation with the irs inability to process and all centers were closed. The senate act included 2 billion funding for it modernization to help address some of these colleges. How important is it to congress, for congress to make that investment in modernization and could the improvements prevents our constituents from having to face similar challenges in the future . That figure was carefully determined that would be a game changer for every american from perspective of eip and otherwise specifically appropriated, the 2 billion would be specifically appropriated for it and technology and would be a game changer and a short every american we are able to provide the Services Including if we get another round of that or similar. The significance of that cannot be understated. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you for your service. Those are all my questions. Thank you gentlemen from the north. The chair recognizes five minutes, the lady from wisconsin. Ms. Moore. Thank you for your appearance here today and i want to join my colleagues in thinking hardworking people of the irs for all that they do. I want to commend them on standing up and for interventions with the Economic Impact payment in particular the putting together the portal to identify taxpayers who were nonfiling taxpayers that we needed to address their extreme poverty during this time. Many of my colleagues, or most of my colleagues on both sides have left me a clear path to ask the same question, it seems like whats in common with whether they were from Ranking Member, seem to deal with backlogs for the economic payments so far, the disparity between those people were audited and those who are not, you did talk about 66 billion burden that the earned income taxpayers provide on an annual basis but i want to note the tax cap is Something Like 6 billion so it is really worthy of that. The question is simple. Say for example, that you continue your appointment, the commissioner of the irs, what would you provide to increase irs funding to cover these clear gaps we have in enforcement and training, as you mentioned, what would your increased budget request . On a top end . What i can say, i think that inflation, 2010 budget figure today would be about 14. 1 billion. That would get us the equivalent of 2010, which realistically might not take into account hiring freeze from 2011 2018. Patrick on our systems to get us where we are. The strength of our agency to the extent that we have learned and continue to earn respect, the American Public attributable employees and frontline employees specifically as well as approximately 7000 employees and it departments in waging investment department. Employees are awesome but you do need more money as you have indicated. I wanted to talk a bit about the problem of this pandemic, which sometimes i have coauthored a letter most of the members have signed on to it about talking about the impact of covid and Domestic Violence. We seen a huge uptick in Domestic Violence staying at home has but not been safer for people. What impact, people have not victims have not gotten their payments and theres a ruling that you cannot replacement payments because of 31 but we have had some advice from nancy, she is be the Taxpayer Advocate who has said with the gao, you really do have the ability to book a category for payment the provides desperately needed payments along with affidavits or Police Reports or something. What do you plan to do in 2021 if this continues to be a problem . I will yield to you for the answer. Request would be legislations such as this that the irs be part of it in to help in terms of what can be administered. Its specific as to who is eligible and Domestic Violence, the payments were properly made in accordance with the income tax returns and if it was a direct deposit or check, in respect to the cares act i am aware that the fact that they said you have the flexibility you could have. The council how would you do it . We are extremely sensitive, i think as every american is to victims of Domestic Violence and certainly employees and family members who are victims of Domestic Violence. If we had discretion or believed we had discussions to do so, we would do so. We cannot do something thats contrary to legal and statutory authority. Thats why i will go forward and if there is another round in respect to Economic Impact payments, wed appreciate the opportunity to be at the table to indicate not only respect to the other provisions we make suggestions how we might be able to administer better for some were sort of left in between. We are certainly underserved at the end of the day but olson is not counsel for the u. S. Government, counsel for the u. S. Government the Internal Revenue services chief counsel and the department of justice, treasury and whatnot. If i felt that i could make payments to people with the stroke of a pen, i would do so but the irs administrator and irs is required to follow statutory law. Mr. We like to work with you. My time is expired but i ask unanimous consent to put nancy olsons analysis in the record for this testimony and without objection without objection. Thank you with that, i yield back. The chair now recognizes for five minutes, the gentleman from pennsylvania. Thank you, mr. Chairman and i appreciate you having and appearing. One of the benefits of doing hearings like this is not just the opportunity for members of congress to exercise oversight and take testimony from the witness but its also for us to be able to listen to the expenses of other colleagues. Ive been on this hearing since 10 00 a. M. , ive been struck by how remarkably similar the experiences of constituents in other districts have been from my own. Specifically, the first republican members, she said almost verbatim, im going to read in terms of the 2019 tax refund backlog. Commissioner, i appreciate you being here and what you initially reached out to me way back precovid to sit down and talk about how the irs can work better and more efficiently for all american taxpayers. I want to reiterate my constituents in philadelphia, pennsylvania are having the same issues with 2019 tax returns. Ive been in the office six years and this is by far the most irs constituent Service Issues weve gotten. Specifically, the backlog at the kansas city site, as you probably know, my constituents when they have an issue, it is the kansas city story site of the irs that processes them. Our ability as a Congressional Office on the front lines dealing with constituents has been impacted by the fact that its difficult to get information from them. I also say criticism, the way its set up right now the liaison office, they are not able to get us information that we need to be able to relay constituents and that is really important because we are the ones on the front lines dealing with people. I have four different district offices in my district because we prioritize constituent service. A lot of our constituents dont even for certain segment, they dont look at voting record or policy, it is constituent service that matters so when i have someone waiting on a tax refund far larger than the eip may have not been able to get it or even get information and the Taxpayer Advocate office is so swamped that they cant hear anything, it is enormously frustrating and the folks in my office who also lived in and around philadelphia have been doing an excellent job, i want to recognize jim kennedy in my office involving expertise on these issues but it is enormously frustrating. So i pass along that as reiterating or underscoring what my colleagues have already talked about because weve been having the same experience, if we can reform the system the Congressional Liaison office, it would be a better experience for our constituents. Moving on, let me speak about the eips Economic Impact payments. My constituents having similar expenses, simple things like getting in eip for 6 and 50 cents set of 6150 and then having to wait nine months for that to be corrected. These are two areas that need addressed. I think it points to the third part that i want to recognize and i am sorry i cant see the time so forgive me, it looks like i have about one minute left so ill conclude with this. Perhaps this will be something we can work on on a bipartisan basis. The 35 reduction staff since 2010 is clearly part of the problem. If we can work on a bipartisan basis to restore the irs workforce, at the end of the day, it would save taxpayer money more than it costs. I know i covered three different areas but if there is anything you want to address, you are certainly welcome to. No, invite me back for another 101 one on one making over that. During the pandemic, you still got 98 im sorry to interrupt, i just want to, i should have mentioned this earlier. A lot of the constituents who were servicing, dont have the ability to do it online and that is part of the problem. I recall our meeting before. The others, there is resources here and there commissioner, can you put something together for him . Time is not that i want to give you the opportunity to respond to him. Could you write something to him in the next week or so . I will, ive met with him before and i will meet again. Is that okay with you . Yes, thank you and i appreciate that. Thank you. Before i call on the next, it just occurred to me a couple of things looking at some notes here, i think using percentages when we talk about audits, it is very misleading. Ill tell you why i think that. If you look at real numbers, taxpayers with incomes over 10 million or more, theres 1500 audits and eip taxpayers, which many of the members have brought up today, 380,000, some might say well, there arent as many obviously, multimillionaires as our people on eit but we are focusing on taxpayers, individual tax payers and what they have to go through. I think percentages are the whole answer. Thats all i say to. Can i comment . Sure. I agree with you. Questions the audits have lower incomes are disproportionate as a class to higher income. We are not at a sink on this. We need what do we need . We need the resources to do it better. The eitc should not be an issue for any american. We need to change that statute. Weve been working this 1975. We have ideas but it takes congressional action to change it so we are not collectively in this situation we are not burdening lower income tax paid who need and deserve these funds. Thank you. I recognize the gentleman from ohio. It is good to see you here. Thank you. I want to echo some sentiments by my staff on behalf of my staff, who have taken on a lot of issues since the pandemic, as you all have as well and particularly kelly from my office but i appreciate the comments and your testimony that the irs has to operate from the taxpayers perspective. It is important because obvious members of congress, that is who we end up taking the view of. Two months ago, one of my constituents reached out and asked for guidance regarding use of their care, flexible spending account and she was notified she would be able to use that to pay for preschool. Unfortunately, Many Americans around the country, in Prison School is not given as an option right now so they face a situation, and while i hope all schools and not just some schools can safely and smartly reopen, this is an issue we face right now and it is a burden placed on a lot of families. As you know, many put funds into these accounts, sent a letter to the irs requesting what i think is a reasonable accommodation to allow account dollars to cover the costs associated with virtual care services. My first question, does are you able to issue guidance on allowable uses for these accounts . I do recall your letter in my recollection is also treasury and to my recollection, they responded. This would be a policy call, a policy question about where to open that up to would be a treasury division. I rested issue an announcement speculating on the three to six months ago, indicating it could be a problem for people with automatic withholdings going that are not using funds on the backend, the ability stop making withholdings. Having said that, if the government were quick to say we issued an announcement with the assumption that everybody our announcements and i understand that is not the case. I am saying, we did something that i am not saying it that way. So they can temporarily use these dollars . The announcement was that they should stop can shooting during the pandemic if they are doing homeschooling, not contribute into the account. Treasury responded that, to you and i believe there were several others, to take it under consideration and i would suggest interactions with treasury. I dont have that. And we are doing that as well. I was just asking if youre able to issue guidance on the. If the policy decision maybe i dont go back to that but policy decisions were made, id hope that we could issue that guidance. The suggestion, i think the suggestion has been made. All right. The people who review these things are also people with families. I get it and i know you do. One other question, one of my constituents who is a cpa reached out, raising concerns about penalties leveled on tax preparers around the country for failing to reach a deadline for submitting returns. Due to delays beyond their control, what advice do you give there . I personally know thousands of accountants, cpas and agents and others, more than a thousand taxpayers and have immediate family members in the practice. They have first time debate and reasonable costs and under the guise of the pandemic, reasonable cause be looked at liberally in the internal service. That is very helpful. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you for being here today, again. The chair now recognizes for five minutes, my good friend from illinois. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to participate the i am not a member of this subcommittee. Commissioner, let me thank you for your service and thank you for being here with us. I want to give a word to the Taxpayer Advocates in the Regional Office in chicago who have been steadfast and helpful to my office during this period. The denial of vips for individuals as well as their families during historic economic crisis and its illuminated brother the pandemic disproportionate effects on immunities of color. Unequivocally harmed africanamericans who have overrepresented in the prison population. The courts stop denying them to the incarcerated. Interesting revenue insisted that the incarcerated complete a complicated form, knowing they lack access to the Technology Given the Internal Revenue service by which it can validate incarcerated status, a similar term for the non vilest, that seems like an intentional effort to limit these claims by the incarcerated. It proportionally harms africanamericans. Will you meet with the leadership of the Congressional Black Caucus to discuss our concerns about the racial implications of recent Internal Revenues . I would be honored to meet with you and others. I met with john lewis on many occasions. The highlight of my personal and professional career. The term intentional, i realize context in which he made it but we are very proud of our Diverse Workforce and respect for all people in this country. We reflect the people we serve which includes incarcerated people. I have a workforce of 80000 people. I guarantee we have thousands of family members who are incarcerated and in tiled to this. We are no different than any other people of the u. S. But i would be honored to meet with you and others. Thank you very much. We look forward to that. Almost eight months after the cares act came along, when are you going to pay the spouses of the incarcerated . It is my understanding the payments associated with prisoner related issues have gone out we are getting information through our mortal currently and the information comes in within a week or so, the payments go out with the intention was that these payments would be made by end of november. Thank you. My time is going to run out so we look forward to review of that information. A colleague of mine from virginia and a constituent was a sheer have the Internal Revenue service because he did not receive ip. The irs told him he was deceas deceased. The percentage of got contacted them and although the irs corrected his record, they refused to process his eip this year because he had already been considered for an eip when he was listed as deceased and he would have to wait until next year. Shouldnt he be paid immediately . First, the files maintained by the physical services, we get the information from them. The way these were issued, as rapidly as possible, a marker was put on an account so to undo one, we have to undo all of them have not yet been able to work through this but we are definitely aware of this issue. Thank you very much. I have a constituent that is taken more than two months to trace a check to issue a payment, the reason why it is taking so long. Id like to have this persons information. There could be a lot of reasons there could be id theft filters and whatnot. We be able to track relatively quickly to find out what the issue is. It could be something unknown to the individual as well as Internal Revenue service. I will have somebody reach out to your office this afternoon. I dont know if you have a power of attorney or people in your office, if you dont, we cannot speak to you, we could speak to the person. Thank you very much. I appreciate your responses. I ask unanimous consent to have estimated for the record from the Congressional Black Caucus. Mr. Davis. You always stand for the voices and most vulnerable. I think that is the main question today. Reduced perceptions and reality. I dont think that is political. Now, the chair now recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from illinois, mr. Schneider. Thank you. I do want to say, as others have said, many of the issues we are hearing our issues i have in my district so before i ask questions, first, we are seeing improvements in service but my office has been in touch with a lot of constituents it to receive their payments like others. We been working with these constituents. My question, request is until these are resolved, are constituents and roll receive tax refunds, we can continue with the details with the other information your office has requested. Can you commit today that you and your staff will ensure these cases are resolved as quickly as possible . How to expedite that and give time frames for that . Some of your comments were little i couldnt hear your comments but i will commit to having somebody on my behalf contact your office this afternoon. Okay. So many people are waiting but i would appreciate that. Can you hear me now . Interesting, when i had my button on, i heard you. Are you able to hear me . I can hear you now. All right. Id like to go through a couple of issues, they benefit our communities and are critical. Unity buildings. Taxpayers subsidize these organizations to provide what was in the tax code but with this cruelest outage has been working toward the mission so id like to go different scenarios and get your take. I have asked similar questions and theres a hearing in may. The organization has millions of dollars products services. Companies run by the nonprofit Board Members and the company regularly inflates prices for goods and services. Such a finding, would you have entanglement . Yes or no . I believe these questions are beyond hypothetical and might be related to a referral we received. I do not want to speculate on any particular matter. I find areas of noncompliance for all taxpayers including tax exempt nonprofit to be traveling and i can certainly say that. Again, its not on any organization specifically but an organization has a provider directing millions of dollars annually, but they have in the company, would that be a source of concern to you . Provided that they have something Nonprofit Organization has a financial interest in a provider to the organization and they are directing is to the vendor would argue that this conflict of interest. I am not going to speculate again but i come back to the same thing. Particularly in the nonprofit tax exempt, its not only compliance but the appearance of proprieties i think is equally important because as you said, they are essentially supported by taxpayer dollars that have gone elsewhere. Its fair to say want Nonprofit Organizations to get that tax advantage status held up to the highest level of ethics, conflicts of interest, all of these are issues restricted by nonprofits. Correct . There is a whole host of divisions specific to nonprofits that are there for a reason and its not just, in the ordinary sense, it is tax dollars interest and penalties here to use my term, it is not a code term but the appearance is at least equally important because they have the benefits that other taxpayers do not. The nra recorded, i know you cant report on its investigation but the level of concern related to the activities recorded, i just hope the irs takes appropriate steps to make sure we protect not just taxpayers the voters for these organizations are taking advantage, they are not making donations to that. With that, i yield back. Id like to thank our witnesses. Members have two weeks to submit written questions to be answered later in the writing. The answers will be made part of the formal hearing record. Mr. Commissioner, i believe the conditions of our meeting today, good direction. Kind of. But i want you to know, to me, this is not a political issue. To me, as i said, 2017, when i asked mr. Brady who was, at that time, the chairman of the committee, we ask these questions in a bipartisan manner so that would avoid, which we did not avoid, it is becoming a quote unquote, partisan issue. I think the people at the are watching in terms of fairness, the subject i did get into tod today, you answered respectfully. This is a bigger issue and i hope someday you will be able to come before us and do that. At will question in, people cold in 10 people, and some was liberal, all organizations, those people were questioned and their names were made public. 10 three deals with privacy as well. They were questioned. Nothing was found. Found after their names were made public and it was all that was given to these people. When people say take politics out of it i return to that issue all of the time because those were the facts. I can tell you one thing. I think about me and i know very little about you but im not going to get off the issue regardless of whether i ask you the questions are not. I do appreciate sincerely youre coming today and making yourself available and im sure we are going to meet again. We are adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] messages, and tweets. On the sunday news programs, many of the questions focused on the trump administrations legal challenges to the election results, the transfer of power, and the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic. We begin with kevin cramer. Republican senator from north dakota. Legal systems. These are processes in our