About the potential challenge to the election coming up. And go through the various permutations and possibilities of things that could happen if there is uncertainty about the outcome. They are bob bauer, a distinguished scholar and resident at in my you scroll while. He is now on leave as the Senior Advisor to the biden president ial campaign. Veteranberg, a republican lawless trinity, now a cnn commentator. I would like to recognize one of our special guests today, ambassadors of singapore and sweden and chile and the european union. I would like to recognize our sponsors, our title sponsors, bank of america. Thank you. Our emerging leaders sponsors. Recognizeuld like to see miss usa and the ceo. Siemens usa, thank you for your emerging Leadership Events a few upcoming that some of you probably know about already. Let me remind you, on november 18, at 10 00 a. M. , we will have an event with determent and ceo of johnson and johnson, as you all probably know, johnson and one of the companies is working on a vaccine. I think that he will have interesting things to say about that. He is a very impressive person. I believe that people will really enjoy that carbonation. I will also have a conversation with another impressive person on december 9 at 12 00 p. M. I will speak with a member of the Economic Club board for some time. We are very much looking forward to talking with her about her role as the ceo. We will have additional schedule items that we are working on. We have had 16 member lead forums recently. We have another 18 being scheduled. If any of your interested in that, let us know. To remind everybody, after this interview is over, we will have our website, economicclub. Org with the full material and presentation. Today, i would like to remind everybody that we are all working on a number of other events. If you all have ideas for people he would like to be presented, please let us know, and we will try to work out things with those individuals if at all possible. Let me go into introducing our two special guests today. First, i would do alphabetically. Bob bauer. In bauer has been a lawyer the political advocacy area for quite some time. He is one of the deans of this area. Bob has been practicing law for many years. Tohas also been an advisor president obama and served as counsel to the president during president obamas second term in office. He is also a graduate of Harvard University and the university of Virginia School of law. And beneen given he ginsberg have chaired an election to look at how we can improve the election process. Lawyersberg has been a for many years in washington, and a partner at two firms. One of them is the firm that he just retired from, jones day. Box, and he patton was a partner there for a long time. Then is somebody that is a graduate of university of pennsylvania undergrad, where he was the editor and chief of the newspaper. He was a journalist for a number of years, and then he decided to get into law and went to georgetown law school. He has written frequently on this area of political advocacy. He was one of the lawyers that was deeply involved in the bush fee goal or litigation years ago and one of the lawyers that chapel. Well talk more about that. Lets dig in right away. I was to say to both of you, if either of you think that this election will be resolved and everybodys minds by midnight on Election Night next week . Bob, i am looking at you. At 12 00to sleep knowing who the next president is . Are you a mute . With all of the press that we have had about the potential for long delays, i think that you can be reassured that at some time late on Election Night, there is a high likelihood that we will know he was winning the election, and by the next day the certainty will grow. I know there is talk about it going on for months and months, before anybody has an inkling as to who will be in the oval office and january of 20 31. I do not think that that will be the case. David then, it you disagree with that . Ib benjamin i think we will need a few states in the mountain and pacific time zones to come in with their results. I think that there will be a clear idea of the winter by friday morning at the latest. The yearst time in gore, the famous bush v decision and case, a usury had been that state courts would resolve election issues. In that situation, the federal courts got involved. Would you expect if there were any disputes the bush versus gore precedent would be such that bush versus gore and federal courts would really move would state courts go back to being the leading decisionmaker in this . In these elections that are contested . Ben . First of all, i think it is rare that you get to a situation like bush versus gore, where most of the activity you are likely to see post election will be conducted under state law and state proceedings. After all the way the system , works, it begins in precincts and builds up counties and goes to the state level. Each state has its own set of laws, and there is no National Election laws governing the time, place and manner of so i think it goes to states, their courts, except in the most extreme conditions. David do you agree thought . Bob i would add that in the bush versus gore decision was a controversial one. It raised significant issues institutionally for the court. The court will be reluctant particularly in the case one of the candidates has a substantial popular vote margin for interceding in the election and bite the sort of controversy that was from the lesson. If jim baker had been the lawyer for al gore, would al gore lawyer for our gore what al gore have become the president of the United States in the year 2000 . David i have Great Respect did have Great Respect and continue to for jim baker and his career. Lets not forget this part. The Gore Campaign has litigated the county rules and the Supreme Court decision on those county rules, to have a recount that would likely have been successful in the state of florida. This case of bush versus gore ultimately went against gore by one vote on the Supreme Court. I do not really view that as a triumph of mr. Baker. I believe that the bush forces benefited from and unforeseen intervention by the United States. David ben, you are down in florida event. You had a lot of Young Lawyers helping you. Ted cruz was one of them, john roberts, Justice Cavanaugh was there. Amy Coney Barrett was there. Of all of those lawyers, who was the smartest . Benjamin every time, i will answer that jim baker. David i think that is a politically correct benjamin they would all agree. David lets suppose both of you were wrong, suppose it doesnt get resolved in the courts but in the congress. You go through how this gets resolved in the congress . Has thethe congress deciding who is the next president . This will arise if there cannot be a clear winner in the Electoral College. Then we go into a law called the electoral count act of 1887. I believe that there will be at least two substantive sides the come out of that. It is fairly indecipherable and open to many interpretations. So i think that you will see novel litigation should we go to that stage. An active, it is never been stressed. What im about to say, i think we had to caviar with the certainty that would come about. The house and the senate would be called upon to play various roles with the judge. Probably competing slates of electors that would emerge from the states. That gets into a very arcane theess with the house, first initial matter, having to choose which of the competing slate that they agree with. The senate plays a role. Part of the answer is to how complicated it is is whether there is split control between the house and the senate. It will be a lot quicker resolution should one Party Control both chambers. To be aly there has winner of the Electoral College for a new president to take office. Either of you, explain this to me to make sure i understand it. When the electors meet in each state, and sometime in december. At the state legislature has to approve those electors, it is works . The electors meet, and theres a possibility that the legislator in the state where the elector is determined by proper vote suddenly takes the position that the popular vote is contaminated by fraud, the legislator its health not the voters would determine who the elector should be. You can imagine a case where candidate a window proper vote, the legislator says that is not the right place. It is contaminated by fraud or irregularity and the Legislature Sends its own plate to the United States congress. That is what the legislator was repaired to do in florida. Intervention in bush versus gore and that is how you end up with the electorate presented to congress and Congress Congressional battles begins. There is a host of bizarre developments that go from there theoretically. I do not think that this will happen. But by the time january 20th comes around no president has been determined through the Electoral College, the Vice President could wind up becoming the president of United States. Or neither of them, and that is the speaker of the house. I do not think that is going to happen. But it is very complicated. Benjamin and one scenario worth mentioning is a states counts. , that therelouded is no winning slate to come out of the state. In other words, the state is unable to certify its election officialo there is no certified slate that goes up to washington. That is where the scenario with state legislators or governors date did the legislators have to stand after sends to the senate the names of the electors . What date is that . December 14th. Safe harbor. David they sinned in december. They send in december. If the Vice President decides, and nobody gets to 70, does it go to the house then . 270 does it go to the new house for the new house . Benjamin the new house is sworn in on january 3rd and the electoral plates are opened on january 6th. It goes to the new house, the house votes by state delegation. David if california is a democratic delegation, they have one vote. And montana republican would have one vote as well. Currently, there are 26 republican state delegations, 24 democratic ones. If that did not change, the republicans, presumably a republican candidate would win. Is that right . Benjamin that is correct. It was very interesting to see nancy pelosi, Democratic CongressionalCampaign Committee target certain states where the margins and delegations are narrow. So the speaker has started to talk about trying in the election to win over slates. David if the house of representatives cannot agree on somebody by genera 20, automatically, the speaker of the house becomes president. Is that correct . I believe the senate determines if a president isnt i believe the senate determines the Vice President. In the Vice President assumes the presidency until this is resolved. So the senate has to find somebody to be Vice President. If they cannot agree, then it goes to the Vice President . Then it goes to the House Speaker . David i have to think through all of this. It is complicated. Let me ask a couple of other things. Both of you headed at president ial commission to look at how the election is done. Is it your view that there is a lot of voter fraud out there . Or maybe there really isnt . Benjamin let me take that one first. Ive spent nearly four decades actively involved in republican election day operations. That means that i have been increasing, been a part of countywide teams that go to look arise inms that polling places, and i have been a part of nationwide boiler rooms, to get all of the reports from individual jurisdictions. Both parties have the right, poll watchers and every point place to say that they both wish to staff and find fraud and resolve problems. An integral part of our system. That in allact is of the time that people have been in polling places and looking for fraud, there simply is not evidence to sustain a charge of systemic voter fraud. David not systemic, but occasionally echo occasional . Bob it is caught and corrected benjamin but it is occasional. Bob it is surpassingly rare. Surpassingly rare. David lets say its rare, but lets suppose that you wanted to vote twice. How would you be able to vote twice . Wanted toose that you show that the system was not perfect. You would not to want to break the law, lets suppose you are asked to figure out how to vote twice. How would you vote twice . I have not given it a great deal of thought on how to commit voter fraud. Undersuppose is, you vote one name and one precinct and you vote under a different name knowing that you have the name of someone who is not going to show up in another precinct. The problem with these schemes, and this was always true particularly with the longstanding claims about in person fraud, is that you cannot commit a death of a person fraud to really swing the outcome of the election. It is not really clear why some of the to that much trouble and expose himself to that kind of activity. David how would you vote twice if you wanted to . Benjamin if you look at the cases where people have been caught, probably the most prevalent one, and this is more often by mistake rather than deliver, this is people voting in two states. They used to live in one state, and they continue to get an absentee bout from that state. And then they moved to another state and vote in their new jurisdiction as well. It tends to occur more in primaries because primaries and two states are not on the same day. There are now active programs to basically compare who voted in different states to be able to find that. David thank you. Can either of you explain this . It was said in the last election that the russians try to interfere and date interfere and the election. How the interfere . What do they do the interfere . Is it putting things on facebook or affecting the way the people vote. How did they interfere, as far as you know . There are a couple of ways it might happen, disinformation social media sites is one possibility. That tend to stir up dissent and strife in the is one. Another that the government is to hack e of is trying into Voter Registration databases and manipulate them so that you could create chaos in the polling place if registration lists were somehow messed with. There are always theories that the voting machines, the themselves achines are hacked. Thats more difficult, maybe not or a great reason, but just because there are 10,500 jurisdictions in the country and deal with the counting casting of ballots and a lot of bob and i saw, as at the commission are very, very old. T would be really hard to hack into the results to be able expect in the election. Do d bob, how many states you think use the same type of voting mechanisms that they did 2000, the year of bush v gore. In other words, if he was voting state year 2000 in any and i voted this year, would i ballots the same paper or electronic ballots or has change . Bob not everybody has changed. The key change was in 2000, a lot of attention to the vote ri machinery. Last mainly he effort to really revamp the electrical process or reform it the better gave the states amounts of money, the hanging chad problem during bush that changed since 2000. Here is a remarkable amount of stasis, the turnover is way too slow because injure addictions the money. In many respects, we have too many jurisdictions that are resource with shortages that make it difficult for them to turn over the changesy and make other that would make the electoral more efficient. David lets talk to you about the way people count these ballots. You vote absentee ballot, lets say mailin ballot, are the for a moment, states allowed to count them before election day generally or until ey have to wait election day to count . They dont nerally count them. They process them. On the the verification outer envelope and take the ballot itself which is in a envelope and prepare it to be put into the purchases on in tion day or, in fact, some cases, remove them from the actually velope and cue them up in the machines. Bob, i dont know of any a state thats supposed to count its ballots before election day. There is some room for precanvasing and preparing count. E it does vary by state law. Certainly one of the concerns year, particularly because of the heavy surge of voting was at least begin to process in the way that ben described the votes for the count on ossible election day. David so some states i think count or notsed to required to count absentee or ballots until as late as november 17, i think. Is that true . I know some states have another two after the election to really count the absentee is that a problem . Benjamin well, they have that ballots that are postmarked on election day and in gettingeate a lag the results which would get in the way of your goal of being bed at midnight on election day knowing the results. Of the battleground states, its really pennsylvania and that wait until election day to begin the process at all. Is just the day before. Of those three states are outcome determinative, then there will be a period of time know the winner. David if i said i wanted to best state as the that has the best process for counting, the best process for that , what state would be . Which state do you think has done the best job in modernizing and i assume you dont want to tell us which us e is the worst, but tell whats the best. I sort of i feel like shouldnt pick out a favorite child here, i dont think it diplomatic. Generically, there are some that should keep up with the class category. Ben and i have discovered, i ant to emphasize, it doesnt always emerge in the press conference. How e would be surprised hard they work given the resources to put on an election. A hink youre going to see performance, im not setting litigation and the threats of allegations of fraud, you will see probably etter performance on election day including the speed of the ote count and the reliability of the vote count, these Election Officials for the better part of the year and when the celerating a demic hit have really put major amount of effort into how this would work. I have kesh three months ago have been made an enormous amount of progress. Inchrisable, with 60 to 70 voted and ricans to the number of problems that have developed that have been and by the way, have been very few. Avid who actually counts the ballots . Does a democrat and a republican to be sitting there counting the ballots together or who actually ial, does the counting when humans are counting it in jurisdictions,st its mostly machines that do it. Down to human beings counting ballot. T is both democrat and republican have people there to do it. More often than not, the human this election is going to be in taking the putting ballots and them through the verification process in the states and there democratic and republican representatives there. David so when i first started i thoughty years ago, you had to vote on election day. Hen did the idea of early voting come in except for absentee ballots, when did the early voting rise . Been a gradual progression really from the 1980s, i think, if you look back. We talked things that about on the commission which decade was last really the advantages of being to have early voting, if you have a throng at a polling place and long lines, you ought to be able ease that pressure by early voting. And the convenience of every to be able to ote seems tab a paragon virtue you could strike for. You voted early and something bad happened to the candidate that you dont like anymore, could you get that ballot back . Benjamin no. It and you destroyed want a replacement ballot, you have a second chance. Tallied, no just way of pulling it back. David lets suppose somebody and he or she goes to the polls and votes and then media, isays on social i voted joe below or for somebody and the person dies minute. T does that ballot still count . And min yes, if its cast submitted. David you dont have to be live alive n you have to be when you vote. David both campaigns are having lawyers lined up in every single precinct or state and how many available to do this . United and i know, the states, call it blessed or cursed with an abundance of lawyers. Recruiting lawyers for a whole host of tasks, senior lawyers to run litigation if its necessary and lawyers that serve other functions in state like poll watching, there is just a huge number. Core of lawyers who are n the midst of preparing legal analysis and papers should is become necessary to address litigation, its in the hundreds. About the ones who actually put pen to paper, do hundreds. Its in the youre into the thousands representing in the states. Each sidet to mention tends to bid up the numbers to a more than another, we have the right number of lawyers. A very large number. David go ahead, ben. Benjamin the r. N. C. Has put out releases talking about 50,000 poll watchers, a number large number of those will be lawyers. The question isnt finding enough lawyers. The question is finding enough caffeine to keep the lawyers that long. David speaking of this, what age who are like my administering the process, is it to get younger people, poll r than me, to be the atcher, the ones that process and check you in, or its not realistic to get a younger its an older person to do the job. They resigned their because of the pandemic and they would not participate this here. Recruiting younger poll workers and that has turned out to be successful. Have for the bly first time in decades that i can average, ben, a younger age across the board, certainly before. Have ever had benjamin i think thats absolutely right from all i hear. Its interesting, Many Companies as i have learned from panels the need to e feel get involved in the process employees and their Customer Base are so involved. Done the ways they have that, a number of companies is any ve paid time off to employee who wants to work as a poll watcher or election official. Thats helped immensely in the recruitment process. Used to be that the networks took pride in calling a president ial election as soon as could. Do you think this year they want to have they want be the last one to call it because theyre afraid of making the mistake ecause all of the ballots havent been counted or do you have a sense of whether the call it early . O benjamin theyre all concerned about getting it right as it first. Getting all of the networks have said importance. Aramount i think the number of absentee ballots makes it even more that they do that. O youll see a lot of coverage of comparing vote totals in 2016 insofar and e spotting trends but not calls. David President Trump has made the point of saying there is a absentee between an ballot or a ballot youre getting in the mail and you and it comes it transom to you, is there anything different in of fraud or how many tates send out ballots without requesting them . Bob some do to address the pandemic. With the the distinction that mr. Trump actually make t is you e, his argument mail them out to em, absentee are everywhere and the unaccounted for all over the place promote fraud. There is no basis for that. Dont credit it and i dont think there is actual date or that. Ience to support states there are nine that mail out ballots to every registered voter and to the about any as a point of this, people do move and die, live ballots in those nine states that theoretically could be voted by somebody else. Not sure there is an actual problem that has been uncovered, but there is an appearance about it. State requires an ballot. Ion to get today thats far more trustworthy. Our country g at compared to other countries, are there other countries that are do in much better than we and of the systems registration, are there better country you cite. Bob the commission concluded that we surprisingly in the could get very little in the way of serious electoral o the process. It falls off the Budget Priority the very quickly assuming in tion is over, congress 2000, the florida election was help ing to give money to the states replace aging the localities in testimony from the commission by and large shuffled election bottom of ion to the their priority list. Its actually quite surprising and disturbing. Think were going to pay a price for it. We paid a price for it in 2000. Effort. S a brief reform when that was over, it really wasnt replaced by another. Is totally right about that. We made a decision as a country that probably if you were eginning today, you wouldnt o, which is to have 10,500 jurisdictions actually with responsibility for the voting process. Some inconsistencies amongst that many jurisdictions. David when i went to law school, i dont remember having a course in election law, maybe they did. How does one become an expert in that . Did you go to law school saying wanted to do, how plunge in this area . Ben . Benjamin i was a cub reporter didnt know enough about the subjects i was school. G and went to law became a media lawyer for a while. Firm were some folks in my who were doing this interesting election law work. I did a history of recounts in he house of representatives in 1982, first time i met bob bauer 1984, there and in was a major house recount and my r launched totally involved, did you get bob . Bob i had been volunteering for campaigns and parties and worked when i was in college, i was interested in politics and then this field after the country began to reform its campaign in the 1970s. I came out of law school. All of a sudden there was a lot form of on the olitical process, Campaign Reform occurred. A large e brought in number on what duty Office Holders owed the public. Seemed to be aw the route to go. T is true i met ben during a recount in 1982. He gave me a really hard time became good friends ever since. It goes to show, you dont have if youre es even professional adversaries. There is an time election, exit polls, they ask people when they leave the who did you vote for and some people tell them and these exit polls seem to be accurate in some cases, not always. Now if 60 or 70 of the people election day, when oure doing exit polls on election day, how accurate are the polls to be, are they still used . To be benjamin two consortiums are collecting this year. Theyre doing you telephone polls of people who voted early and it is possible a hold of the names of people who have voted, so sampling, they say theyre taking that into account. David and either of you were going to reform the existing you ss we have, lets say had one big recommendation you could come up with and everybody to comply with it to make the election process better, be, other that reform than more lawyers . [laughter] retired, i dont even need to buy into that now. 10,500 jurisdictions is the largest impediment to election ell run system. I think you take into account federalism under which the country operates and a uniform tate ziep system within its state. I would add just, to that, ongoing federal to accomplish things like upgrading the voting machinery and one last very reform, removing partisan control in the states over Election Administration. Its simply not sustainable, by the way other countries, not all but other countries avoid which is to have partisan elected have ambitions for hire office in charge of administration in particular states. I think it arouses suspicion of electoral process and does something that our commission very much not like to say of ttention with the goal professionalizing administration and treat it like a Public Service like any other. Secretary of state in one state is in charge of counting the ballots and that running state is also for governor, that person shouldnt be in charge of ballots, you think . Bob i dont think an elected fficial, partisan elected official should be in charge of Election Administration period. We recommended in our commission a minimum, we would want state the secretaries of office employ election Administrative Professionals so at least the ultimate esponsibility day to day resided with them. There is still an appearance problem. E saw that play out many, many times over the last several decades. David i notice that people are stand something labor for 10 11 hours and so forth. In the other parts of society, super ticket to get into disney ahead of other ines, how come that has never happened in the election process, you pay a little little extra and get to the front line, work, right . Benjamin funny you should mention that. One of the things we did on the to visit disney orld to see how they manage to do lines and actually that is ind of one of the recommendations that we made is be there at least appointments that you can make to vote or at the very least, if go into vote and there is a line, you can get a time for can come back and count of injureand a number addictions have actually put that into place. Bob i would just add, i dont that you can give people who have the resources the opportunity to buy themselves to line. Ead of the that would be resisted. David that was tongue in cheek, i agree. [laughter] david lets suppose, you think the networks would like to see resolved, lets say by midnight or actually it would be went onor ratings if it for a couple days or weeks. Do you have any sense of whether Media Business really care whether its resolved quickly or not or they agnostic . Benjamin they are not playing ratings. Ined i think virtually american would ike to see this resolved quickly and accurately. David and if some lawyer is now and he or she is in ng, i really want to be election law as my specialty, would you recommend this area or you say find a more lucrative area . Area. Min its a wonderful go ahead, bob. Go to probably wouldnt whether or not its lucrative, way, litigatinge rights area can be lucrative. I tell Young Lawyers issues make a it to specialization decision, take two or three years, know where life before you go into this niche specialty that ben and i have occupied for years. Thats a big decision to make to narrow yourself that quickly. With in i would agree that. David sometimes elections, they have recounts in precincts or states. To do today recount, you have to hold the ballots a certain way. Thelong do you have to hold ballots and who actually does the recounting, is it somebody ifferent than who did the original counting typically . Enjamin every state and jurisdiction is different and has its own idiosyncratic rules recount which is part of why bob and i stayed in business all actually. Ears so in most instances, you have o bring in many more people to help in a recount because its a more laborious project. Still supervised by the people who did the original there often will be additional personnel brought in. Had a chance you is edo 2000 in bush v gore, there anything that the gore people could have done differently that might have a different outcome . Bob im going to say a variant earlier. I said i think there is a urban magic. And a phenomenal lawyer to jim aker for sure and the team assembled from florida. I think the Gore Campaign of ally did a very good job the ating its position and United StatesSupreme Court it dnt make the count, would have gone in another direction. Benjamin im going to disagree a little bit with who would have the recount. David let me ask you this, as im sitting at home through the period of time, i get a lot of calls from political polling firms, they want me to in a polling exercise and they say it will take only 15 or 20 minutes. Or 20 dont have 15 minutes. Who are the people that say i do and i was minutes looking for someone to talk to. Really people participate in the polling exercises, is it hard to get people to participate, do you think . You get those at home yourself . Them always. Gnore my pollster friends tell me it harder in the cell hone era to get people to participate in polls. One of the things that the detailed the reporting on polls is telling us a little bit about what samples used and how are pollsters samples which is formula of theic their judgment and a little bit of history. There are problems to have crosssection to participate. David bob, if i didnt want to midnight, im tired and getting older, 10 00. Is there one or two states in your experience, are there one a certainthey came in way, i could go to sleep early nd know that the election went a certain way . Bob the answer of the question on the current strategic position and the candidate. Florida flips this year and its clear that florida is lipping, that is one of the ways that donald trump will not be reelected. Some states re are get their ionally results in quicker, florida, the three States Hillary clinton won narrowly that if donald trump wins this new hampshire, mileperhour, and nevada, will pa county in arizona be a key state. Ohio will be a key state to look at. Let me ask you a final question. Remember thats, i sometimes mayors or important oliticians would hold back votes. They would say we havent had the votes, we havent counted them yet. Needed to see how many votes they might need. Is that system still around back the le can hold notes to see how many they might win. To hats the old days and apocryphal. Does not exist anymore. John kennedy , called mayor daley, he said with few friends, we will win the state and he did. It amin social media makes more difficult for shenanigans to take place. Of the things you see almost a minute by minute basis, these days, is which apartments of the state have come in. A of a sudden if there is avoid in the area where the esults arent in, you can rest assured that there will be social media scrutiny and see ters scrambling to whats up. David this has been very interesting. I assume both of you think that process is better than it was in 2000 in terms of voting themselves working upright, is that right, both of its better than 2000 or not. Perfect, but not better. Bob i agree. Until ill be washing up midnight on Election Night and to if youre right and go sleep knowing. Thank you both for an interesting conversation and know you for letting us exactly how this process really works, a lot better than we did before. Thanks a lot, bob and ben. Bob thank you. David to the members of the club, i would say this interview on Economic Club. Org in a few moments. We election day is here, november 3. Stay with cspan to learn who the voters select to lead the country as president and which parties will control congress. Our live coverage starts tonight at 9 00 eastern and continues through washington journal at 7 a. M. Eastern. Join the conversation, share your experiences as results come in, and hear from the candidates. Watch live on cspan and cspan. Org or listen live on the cspan radio app. Election night on cspan your place for an unfiltered view of politics. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [crowd sounds] the court of appeals for the d. C. Circuit judge j