[laughter] it was a late night and an early morning. My god, what a horrible mistake. Im so sorry. Front page of the washington post, give viewers a thumbnail of what you wrote today. Dan well, i think that the sum and substance of the debate was that the Vice President , mike pence, came armed with the case he wanted to make against joe biden, the Democratic Party, and Kamala Harris. But, time and again, it was clear that what undermines the case most significantly is the person he works for, President Trump. It was obvious really from the getgo when the discussion focused on the coronavirus pandemic and the administrations handling of it. The Vice President , in essence, recycled statements the president has made repeatedly over many months, which he himself has said, touting what they claim is a great record against all the evidence of how this country has a much higher death toll than any major industrialized country in the world. And, as senator harris and moderator susan page both asked, why is that the case . So it was a tough night for him to try to do what he wanted to do. The administration, the campaign, the trump folks would like to make this election a choice, not a referendum. But i think we were reminded again last night that it is a referendum on the president of the united states. Jonathan so, dan, let me get your thoughts on something. A lot of comments have been made about the fact that none of the questions asked by the moderator, susan page were actually answered, particularly from Vice President pence. But i think each candidate had a question that they were asked that they visibly dodged. When it comes to Vice President pence, it was the idea of accepting a peaceful transfer of power. For senator harris, it was the question about adding members to the Supreme Court in response to a confirmation, an expected confirmation of judge Amy Coney Barrett. Do you think the fact that harris and pence both dodged those questions will hurt either campaign . Dan not particularly, but i thought it was quite revealing on both their parts. I say not particularly in part, jonathan, because the electorate in this country, for the most part, people have made up their minds about where they stand. People are already voting without necessarily watching these debates or even in spite of watching these debates. But i thought that those were both very important moments. The issue of pledging a peaceful transfer of power is about as easy a question that a politician can get. I think the mike pence who existed before he became Vice President would have had no trouble answering that in the affirmative. I think his problem is that the president will not commit to that, and the Vice President is intensely loyal to him, often to a fault. I think that makes it impossible for him to do what, probably in his gut, is the thing he should do, which is to say yes, we will abide by the results of the selection. I thought that, for senator harris, she, too, is following the lead of the person at the top of the ticket. Vice President Biden has resisted answering this question since it came up, since the nomination, or actually since the vacancy after the death of justice ginsburg. The fact that he will not answer it is obviously telling, and the fact that she would not do it last night is also telling. Its a pretty straightforward question. Would you do it, would you consider it . He does not want to answer that question, because he knows it would stir controversy. He will have to, you know, he will have to deal with that issue if judge barrett is confirmed and he becomes president. Because there will be pressure from a lot of parts of the Democratic Party to do exactly that. Jonathan you know, just before we came on air here, online, the commission for president ial debates announced that the next president ial debate that was supposed to be in miami is going to be virtual. You have covered many debates over your career. What do you think that will do to the tenor and tone of that president ial debate . Dan well, that and what happened last week are likely to make the tone of this coming debate somewhat closer to what last night was. But so much of that will depend on how the president decides to conduct himself. If he comes in again determined to be super aggressive, then we might have a repeat of that. I think its a little harder when the two men will be in different locations. Its you know, its just harder to conduct that kind of performance when you are remote. So, well see. Ive always said to people that, you know, debates depend on the attitude of the participants. If people come to debate, they will debate. If they choose to come to be disruptive, they will be disruptive. They will do what they think is in their political interest. And i think we will have to wait and see what the president decides he wants to do in the next debate. But it will certainly feel different. Part of the debate will be held in miami. The citizens in the town hall will be in miami, as will steve scully, who is the moderator for that debate. But the principles will not be there, they will be in different locations. Jonathan dan, last night people always talk about, and you may have mentioned this in your column in the washington post, that Vice President ial debates dont usually have much of an impact on the race. But last night, because the two principles of the campaigns are both in their 70s, i think people or do you think people were looking at this debate and looking at these two candidates as potential president s . And do you think they succeeded in telegraphing their message . Particularly senator Kamala Harris, who, compared to Vice President pence, is still relatively unknown in that regard. Dan i think it would have been impossible for most people to watch that debate and not think about the fact that one of those two could end up as president before 2024. I mean, when you are dealing with two older men, with Health Issues, particularly the president right now, but Vice President biden has had Health Issues in the past. I think everybody who came to that debate was looking at them with that in mind. I also think, really, from the beginning, since she was nominated or chosen by Vice President biden to be the running mate, that senator harris has been seen as somebody who is capable and ready to be president , if she is asked to step in. I think that her background, her record, her visibility, the fact that she has run for president , has helped to equip her to pass that bar. So, i think that last nights performance only, probably, reinforced that with the public. Endthan dan, im going to our discussion here with a grave question. That is, in all your years of political reporting, conventions, debates, president ial campaigns, have you ever seen a situation as surreal as the fly landing on a candidates head in the middle of a most important moment in of their career . Dan i cant remember one. There may well have been one. Strange creatures get into an open halls and do things. [laughter] but i cant remember one. And, particularly, landing a fly landing right on the head of a whitehaired man. So there was no missing what was happening. And whether the Vice President if he knew it, he was well composed. And perhaps he didnt even realize what had happened. Jonathan well, twitter being what it is, the fly had a twitter account and thousands of followers within moments of it happening. Dan, weve got to go. Thank you so much, as always, for coming on first look this morning. Dan thanks, jonathan. Jonathan lets get over to the opinion side of the paper, where you will find my colleague bruce marcus and martis and marc thiessen. Oh, karen . [laughter] you know what . This show, viewers, im so sorry. Karen, thank you so much. [laughter] already off the rails, like the first debate. Well, you know what . I just saw it was 8 09, so about seven minutes ago, President Trump was on fox news business, and he said hes not going to participate in a virtual debate, as we were just talking about with dan balz earlier. The commission on president ial debates announced that next weeks debate, that was supposed to be in miami between President Trump and Vice President biden, they are supposed to be virtual. But now the president says he will not participate in a virtual debate. Marc thiessen, let me start with you. Can he well, obviously can do that, but is it to his advantage to do that . Shouldnt he show up for a debate given where he is in the polls . Marc if his doctors clear him, theres no reason to have a virtual debate. Its simple, either his doctors say hes not transmitting disease and is ok, or hes not. So theres a little bit of hysteria going on here. But look, he does need to participate in the debate. Because he does not want the last debate to be the last impression people have of him on a debate stage. So it is in his interest to debate, and it is in the American Peoples interest to have the candidates in person debating. Jonathan hes got to debate. Jonathan karen . Karen hes got to debate. It is the debate commissions call on what the format should be. At this point, i mean, the president was in the oval office yesterday. Something that raised a lot of eyebrows among health experts, for someone in his situation. At this point, it shouldnt be just a question of his doctors. It should be a question of what Public Health experts believe. If he shows up, its not just his own health that is at risk, as we are seeing with whats going through the white house right now. Jonathan lets talk about last nights debate, karen. I will start with you. This will go to both of you. You start. Your impression of last nights debate and did this debate move the needle in any way . Karen i think not. There were few, if any, moments, except for the cameo appearance by a fly. Basically, this just reinforced both sides. And it was really the trumppence ticket that actually needs a reset here, if you believe the polls at the moment. So, in that sense, they were the losers. Jonathan marc . Pence won it on points. I think donald said it to watch , it carefully about how he handled himself. He anticipated every attack was going toharris come up with and had an answer ready. But Kamala Harris probably won because, one, she did not make any catastrophic mistakes that could be used against her and biden. And two, they are ahead. You know, the candidate who is behind needs to change the trajectory of the race. I think that mike pence did an outstanding job, but, you know, donald trump needs to really study the way he did it. And particularly what he did was he knew what the attacks were going to be, and he waited and let her say the things that he was then going to rebut. Donald trump didnt let joe wise,get a word in edge so he never let him walk into any traps. So i think that trump needs to go ahead and learn from this and be let his opponent speak. Joe biden will do more damage to himself than donald trump will buy interrupting. Jonathan karen, do you agree with marc . Did Vice President pence win it on points . Karen i just dont. They were both pretty cautious. As dan pointed out a few moments ago, they were essentially playing defense for their principles. So, i think its kind of hard to score a debate of this sort, where, essentially, you have two surrogates debating on points. Jonathan karen, i want to get your reaction to something. I saw lots of traffic on twitter, particularly towards the end of the debate, and theres quite a bit of commentary going on in the morning, after the debates, talking about Vice President pences demeanor. And his demeanor towards the moderator, susan page of usa today, and his opponent, Kamala Harris. Folks have called it condescending, mansplaining. I am trying to find the other words. But, from your perspective, how did you view Vice President andes manner and tone demeanor when it came to the women on stage with him . Karen i am going to be really interested in seeing these are some things that sometimes you dont fully understand until a day or two after the debate, but i do think there is a real danger here. He did two things. He completely ignored the female moderators efforts to enforce rules that both of the campaigns had agreed to. And he also ignored what the questions were. They both did that, to some extent, but i think pence more so. So i am skeptical that this is the kind of thing that, you know, suburban women sitting there watching at home, who and this is a big constituency that the Trump Campaign is struggling with would necessarily find that appealing. Jonathan marc, i just want to read from channeling this piece in the Hollywood Reporter where the person writes that pence appeared condescending and not altogether in the moment as he ran roughshod over the two women on stage and kept addressing the issues that the moderator had moved on from. If trump did his best to get his picture under the definition of alpha male in the dictionary, last week, pences portrait might be found under mansplainer. Marc, to karens point about suburban women, do you not think that Vice President pence hurt himself in the mission of trying to get suburban women to come back to President Trump . Suburban white women, to be specific. Marc i think that analysis is a huge stretch. The reality is he treated the moderator the same way he would have treated a male moderator. He treated his opponent the way he would have treated a male opponent. He just debated. The fact that he didnt exactly answer the questions that he was asked or used the opportunity to go back, any of us who have watched president ial and Vice President ial debates for decades, everybody does that. Its nothing different. By the way, Kamala Harris did the exact same thing. The very first question she was asked was what would you do differently come january from the trump administration, and she didnt answer it. And she refused, repeatedly, to bidenharrishe administration would pack the Supreme Court. Hold them both to the same standard. I think the sex of the moderator and the sex of the Vice President should be irrelevant to scoring the debate. Jonathan but is it . Karen, is it irrelevant . To my mind, its not. What do you think . Karen i dont. I think that one of the one of the dynamics here is that this is the first time that a woman of color has been on a National Political party ticket. And it was also susan page shes a female moderator out there. I just dont think that women watching this are going to especially given the struggles that the Trump Campaign has had with white women voters, suburban, especially collegeeducated i just dont think that people are watching this with this kind of filter that doesnt take into effect gender and race. Jonathan let me get you both to talk about what you think were the high points and the low points for each candidate. Karen, i will start with you. What was Vice President pences best moment . And also what was the best moment for senator harris, do you think . Karen i think, in both cases, it was, you know, his defense of i actually think he was ready for the covid question. I mean, he wasnt necessarily telling the truth, but he had the line of attack. And i think hers were more when she would go after the questions that involved the kind of country we are. In both cases, they were very much reflecting the message that was job one for their principle. Jonathan marc . Dan i think, for harris low point, i think its something she didnt say. The very first question was about whether about covid, the pandemic. Unlike susan page, she never said hey, we wish the president a speedy recovery. She Just Launched into a blistering attack. I think the missing grace note, the absence of that was glaring. It really didnt take much to do that. I agree with karen that the Vice President was ready on the covid. I thought he was very effective when she was trying to blame the president for deaths, and he 210,000 quoted Vice President bidens own chief of staff saying that they completely blew it, they did Everything Possible wrong during the swine flu pandemic, and it was just pure luck that tens of millions of people didnt die. That there was the picture of the ineffectiveness of a response to a pandemic. And, of course, the Supreme Court. This is such a central issue to the election. The democratic line is that they are that americans have to decide about this, but they will not tell the American People this is now two debates in a row where they refused to answer the question if they will pack the court. Thats not a normal thing. Its an unprecedented idea. 150 years we have had nine justices. If they want to turn this into a referendum, they have to answer the question. Otherwise, they will not have the mandate to do it. Jonathan in terms of not answering the question, does it not disturb you, then, that Vice President pence, like his boss, refused to answer the question that they would accept a peaceful transfer of power . He didnt answer the question last night. Marc sure. Of course, they should have. President trump should have answered that. Jonathan but what about Vice President pence . Marc they both should have. Of course, there will be a peaceful transfer of power. But i think this whole thing about a peaceful transfer of power is a little hysterical. The Supreme Court if this is litigated, the Supreme Court is going to decide, there will be a bush v. Gore, there will be a decision, and it will be enforced. Theres not a single chance that there will be troops in the streets and a violent opposition to donald trump leaving the white house if he loses the election. Jonathan go ahead. Karen i think the question of packing the courts is a little hysterical, too, if biden takes office. Packing the courts would be such an extreme measure that would take such a huge, huge legislative and legal lift. I think its one of those issues that is out there, perhaps in the fevered swamps of the left, but its just not likely to happen. And so i actually think that, you know, that the Biden Campaign is wise not to address it. Marc yeah, in order to add judges to the court, not only would joe biden have to win the presidency, but the democrats would have to take over the senate. And that is just, you know, the politics, the electoral piece of it. Lets say that were to happen. The politics, as karen says, of getting that done would be a huge lift. Marc, you were very kind to point out a low note for senator harris. Can i get you to articulate a high point . What did she do well last night . C i thought that she was look, she prosecuted the case on covid very effectively. I thought that she made a lot of very effective points. I think her handling of the covid pandemic was probably the most effective point she made, and she kept the debate focused for a while on that subject, which is where the Bidenharris Administration the bidenharris team wants to keep the debate going. If we are talking about covid, then biden and harris are winning. If we are talking about the economy and the Supreme Court, i think trump and pence are winning. So i think she prosecuted that point effectively. Most importantly, honestly, she didnt make any major errors. If you are ahead, you know, if you dont blow it, if you dont blow your lead, then you win. Jonathan karen, this is the only Vice President ial debate that there is going to be. There are supposed to be two other president ial debates. As i talked with dan in the opening of this show, or just towards the end of our segment, the news broke that President Trump said he would not take part in a virtual debate. How confident are you that we are actually going to have two more debates in this president ial cycle . Karen i think we will. And i also think that i think the challenge with a virtual debate is that the next one is this town hall forum. So how are you going to sort of zoom, or whatever they use, in that situation give viewers a real sense of genuine interaction between these candidates and ordinary voters . Its going to be a challenge. But i just dont think it is tenable for either candidate to walk away from the debates. Either debate. Jonathan do you agree with that, marc . Marc i do, 100 . I think they have to have the debates, and i think donald trump is going to have to participate. I think they should be inperson. Its a simple question. Is he medically cleared . Is he shedding virus . If he has a negative test for covid, theres no reason not to do it inperson. If there is a net positive test, of course you do a virtual debate instead. Jonathan marc, isnt it important to know when the president s last negative test was . Thats information that the white house isnt releasing. Marc its not relevant to the debate. Its relevant generally. Well, i mean his last negative test, yeah, right before the debate. If he doesnt have a negative test, then of course he shouldnt debate inperson. I agree with that, yeah. Jonathan karen, do we know for sure when the president s last negative test was . Last reporting i saw is we dont exactly know when that was. Or do i have that wrong . Karen we do not know when it was. The other thing is i think it is not just the president s health that is at issue here. I mean, if there are other if there are other people in that room the president process team will have to agree to wear masks in the room, which they did not of the first debate. Last night karen pence was on stage with no mask. There are many, many other issues that have to be taken that the trumpd team is going to have to agree to for this to take place. Ok, we have to more president ial debate, less than 27, 26eks, 26 days days before election day. This election cycle has been unlike any i have seen, but what are you looking for in the next 26 days as for markers of where this campaign is going . I will start with you, karen. Karen i think the course of the coronavirus is right now the biggest determining factor of what remains of this elections season. The economic and the health pain it is causing the country. Mark . I agree. I think donald trump has an opportunity that so far he has not seized to take his personal experience with covid and turn it around. I think he tried to do that the other day with the video keep it out where he talked about the therapeutic that he took, which was probably developed under operation warp speed and how impressive that was for saving his life and the fact that he will make that available for free to every american who wants. T or needs it but we will get a thirdquarter economic report which will put the economy back front and center and we will certainly economicledigit growth, so that might put the economy back in conversation, which is important for trump. One last quick question. The president and the first lady are not the only two people who have tested positive for the coronavirus. There are maybe two dozen people on staff who have tested positive. The joint chiefs of staff are quarantining. How concerned should the American People the about the whennuity of government they seem to be exploding within the upper ranks of government. We need to be concerned that a lot of people have gotten sick and very important positions, but at the same time, we have plenty of continuity of government plans. The president , now that he is have the virus and recovered from it will have some level of immunity. I do not think we will have a situation where he will not be able to execute the powers of his office. Karen . Behaviore president s at a moment when we know he is on powerful drugs will continue to receive scrutiny. I think these middle of the night tweet storms are not exactly instilling confidence. But trumps a fine normal behavior is not exactly so call before steroids. Right. Thank you very much for coming on our first look at the first and only Vice President ial debate and a whole lot of other. Ubjects thank you. Goodbye. And thank you for watching. Washington post live be back at 10 a. M. Eastern with a special andt on primary care friday, former democratic candidate for president Pete Buttigieg will be here to discuss his new book. You can learn about these events postore at washington online. Thank you for watching. Have a good morning. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] and discussing policy issues that impact you. Coming up sunday morning, a preview of the confirmation hearings with judge Amy Coney Barrett and we will look at the history of president ial campaign commercials. Cspan what cspans washington journal live at 7 a. M. On sunday morning with your email, facebook comments, text messages, and we. There are about 90 competitive house races this year, almost evenly split between democrats and republicans. The gop needs to take 21 seats