Instituted. This is two and a half hours. The committee will come to order. Without objection, the chairman is authorized to declare a recess at any time. The chair asks that ms. Debbie ms. Scanlan,ultz, else mr. Cooper, ms. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and representative mary gay scanlon, b waved onto the committee. Without objection, it is so ordered. I now recognize myself for an Opening Statement, then i will record as the Ranking Member. I have agreed is the chairwoman on . Chairwoman wish to have an Opening Statement . I will recognize her, with your after. Ion, mr. Hice, lawrence, i will recognize. If somebody else on your side wants to have additional. The Postal Service is the crown jewel of our federal government. It serves every household and business every day. 630,000 brief individuals who live in every congressional district. According to pew research, 91 of americans have a favorable view of the Postal Service. Leaps and bounds above that of any other federal entity. During the coronavirus pandemic, Services Value to this nation is greater than ever, serving as a linchpin to our nations response to the pandemic. Found 2020 harris poll that the Postal Service ranked as the most Important Company to americans during the pandemic because it is a constant in our lives. That ings companies it outranks companies that manufacture ppe and sanitizers. The Postal Service will also play a critical, unprecedented expanded,he sense of in democracy, with voters casting ballots by mail. We know the Postal Service can handle the volume. The question is whether those at the helm are taking steps to hinder that capacity and slow it down in ways that benefit one candidates reelection campaign. It is essential that Postal Service leadership demonstrate nonpartisanship, and not cronyism or favoritism. Servicethe postal during this pandemic is apus is a responsibility to bestow upon only the most honorable of leaders. It is a job for those ready to listen to the millions of ,takeholders, mail recipients veterans, congress, and so many others, to connect the United States as Benjamin Franklin foresaw and service the thread that unites our society. Unfortunately, that is not what is happening. Instead, we have a board of governors that inserted a political ally of the president into the search process in the 11th hour. We have a crony at the helm of our nations Postal Service, a man rife with conflicts of interest and violations of law even. We have a postmaster general who would benefit financially if the Postal Service sprints toward privatization. If mailind bail in ballots are delayed or undelivered. That would be unacceptable under any circumstance. However,astrophic, during a Global Pandemic on the precipice of one of the most consequential elections of our lifetimes. This hearing will provide the public with an update of what we know on the background and qualifications of the postmaster general selected by the board of governors. Some nights they that was the some might say this is the homework that board should have done and failed to do. We will together the troubling past of mr. Dejoy. We will examine his actions related to companion related to Campaign Donations when he was at the helm of new breed logistics. Companies that would benefit if the usps pursued the president s plan for privatization. We will explain why those Connections Matter and why they should have rendered him ineligible for consideration. Workejoys first day of was june 15. Today marks the start of his 15th week of federal service. His record is characterized by tumult, controversy, denying citizens in need of lifesaving medicine and supplies. With thes are on time, mail often left bind. Ourned at our left last hearing that mr. Dejoy has known for weeks that his socalled operational changes that just so happened to coincide with the election slowed down the mail by 10 . For two weeks, he withheld from congress and the public the data and analysis that demonstrated how his leadership undermined the mission of the Postal Service to deliver the mail. Days later, details on mr. Dejoy s lack of ethics have come to light. He reportedly forged his own brothers signature to take greater control of the company. Used theedly illegally familys company as a Political Action committee, coercing the staff to donate to candidates and reimbursing the staff with bonuses and salaries. Actions shoulds have been of great concern to the board of governors and could have been prosecuted for criminal activity. We are not done. Over the weekend, the postmaster general sent every home in america a mailer saying that voters who wish to vote by mail should request a mailin ballot, confusing voters in nine states that automatically send a mailin ballot. This could have been avoided if he allowed the governors of the states, as requested, to proofread the balance before proofread the mailer before it was sent out. Company mayceo, his have received overpayments for services rendered. By dossier released today one of our witnesses shows that mr. Dejoy continues to hold investments, assets command other interests in entities. Mixes hismr. Dejoy political and friendships with his position as pmg. For those who believe the Postal Service should not be the arm of any campaign, mr. Dejoy continues to conceal his secret coordination with Trump Campaign associates, about which he has already provided misleading information and testimony before the congress. The chairwoman and i have repeatedly asked the postmaster general and board of governors about justifying the operational changes, clarify what mr. Dejoy morevestments are, transparency of operations, and ensure trust in the Postal Service. They have not given us the documents we requested and required. Chairwoman maloney issued a subpoena compelling mr. Dejoy to produce a wide range of documents including those previously requested in a list of contacts with Trump Campaign affiliates and individuals. Today is the deadline for the board of governors to provide the committee documents and information to shed light on the way mr. Dejoy was selected. While the board of governors may be tickled pink with mr. Dejoy s performance, the American People are not. Perhaps they need to be reminded that their job is to serve the any particular print particular president. I look forward to hearing from andexpert Witnesses Today continued discussion. I recognize the distinguished Ranking Member. Notion thathe mere this hearing is a possible update isis a postal utter nonsense. Just moments ago, the issues that will be discussed shows this hearing for what it is, an absolute farce. Not a single one of the witnesses even work for the usps currently. Is, in relation to the Postal Service update, because of better than expected revenue during this pandemic, the Postal Service has reported that it has enough money to be totally solvent through at least august of next year. 11 months from now. Aere is no immediate need for 25 billion bailout. However, as gao reported in may and as we have all known for decades, the uspss Current Business model is not financially sustainable because of such things as declining mail volumes, increased compensation costs, and liabilities. Bailout money cannot fix these type of problems. All it does is push the problems down the road a little bit further for us to deal with it later. We have 11 months to come together and work in a bar fight is work in a bipartisan fashion to bring real reforms to the Postal Service just like, mr. Chairman, you did with my predecessor mark does. Instead of having a serious discussion, we are using this valuable time to delve into conspiracy theories about the koch family and opine into mr. Dejoys interests. Bring together a group of people like we have here today to speculate with no more facts or information than is printed in the Washington Post is absolutely a waste of time. This is in my opinion as close to a Kangaroo Court as i have ever seen. Ofen the reckless apathy facts and truth, it is clear that this hearing is nothing more than an attempt at a political assassination. Usps ethicshat the Office Cleared mr. Dejoy to retain certain assets and to the best of anyones knowledge here, he has complied. For his part, the postmaster general has confirmed in our full Committee Hearing that the oig is currently conducting an investigation. He said he welcomed the results of that report. The president himself said he is open to a campaignfinance investigation of the master general. He said that if it can be proven of evidence of wrongdoing come a should lose his job of wrongdoing, he should lose his job. Democrats try to paint them as partners. They are willing to at least collect the facts and evidence before rushing to judgment, something that certainly this committee so far has not done. For example, when the entire house was forced to vote on a postal bailout bill before we even had a hearing. Before we had the opportunity to question the postmaster general and analyze data on what was causing the slowdowns. Or when democrats claim that the removal of collection boxes and sending mail to states about collection deadlines was somehow democracy, without admitting the fact that these are the same actions postmasters in the past have done. Today, we are having a hearing two days before the Postal Service is supposed to start producing documents from the democrat subpoena. Thestments, recusals with ethics office. Let me add this. In the documents that have already been received, there is evidence of the democrats disingenuous narrative. The documents show, in blackandwhite, evidence ountering two of the democrats favorite topics, postal boxes and mail sorting machines. More of these were removed just prior to the 2016 election than were removed this year. I dont recall any talk about it then. As a result, the hearing today will not be based on fact. It will be based on conjecture and supposition, in the hopes that one day we will resume genuine postal reform, i am inviting mr. Mike plunkett from a National Association of businesses and organizations that rely on the use of mail for communication and commerce. I look forward to hearing from him as well as our other witnesses. Hopefully we will be able to move forward with genuine efforts for postal reform rather than these types of hearings which are nothing more than a Kangaroo Court to score potable points. I yield back. Rep. Connolly what was characterized as character assassination was an indepth investigation done by the Washington Post and independent Media Outlets confirmed the findings of the Washington Post investigation that members of new breed staff when mr. Dejoy was ceo were pressured to make donations that could be construed as straw donations. Rep. Hice i appreciate the chairmans remarks, but this hearing is supposed to be about postal updates, not potential investigations. Rep. Connolly we appreciate the gentlemens point, but leadership of the Postal Service is directly about issues related to the Postal Service. Before i call on ms. Lawrence and mr. Keller, i recognize the chairwoman of the full committee. Good morning. I would like to thank you, chairman connelly, for holding this important hearing and being such a Strong Partner in our investigation, to hold the Postal Service and its leadership accountable to the American People. I would like to welcome our witnesses. We look forward to learning from you and working with you to ensure that the Public Interest is protected. Ever since the board of governors announced the selection of mr. Joy as postmaster general, questions have been raised about the process for selecting him, and possible conflicts of interest, given his many financial interests in Postal Service contract awards. During our full Committee Hearing on august 24, 2020, multiple Committee Members questions mr. Dejoy and Board Chairman duncan about his Selection Process and whether it was influenced by the fact that both mr. Dejoy and mr. Duncan thelongtime mega donors for Republican Party. When directly asked by congressman cooper whether mr. Dejoy had ever paid back any of his executives for contributing to republican campaigns by providing bonuses or rewarding responded,ejoy thats an outrageous claim, sir. And i resent it. Less than two weeks later, a headline appeared in the Washington Post, which stated, louis dejoys rise as gop fundraiser was powered by contributions from Company Workers who were later reimbursed, former employees say. If true, these allegations are not only incredibly unethical, they are illegal. And, to compound these possible would have dejoy lied to congress as well. The United StatesPostal Service is one of our nations most trusted institutions. The veryback to founding of our country. It is mentioned in our constitution. And it consistently receives the highest rating of federal agencies from the public. Every day, and provides millions of people with access to critical mail, medication, and especially in this unique election, mailin ballots. But how long can we expect the faith of the American People to last if the posts if the Postal Service is tainted by partisan leadership and alleged criminal activity . These are just a few of the reasons why i have introduced the nonpartisan postmaster general act, which will prevent Postal Service leadership from participating in any political activity, and will prevent anyone who has held a political position in the last four years from being hired as postmaster general or epi postmaster general. Sensitiveitical, time legislation that the full committee will consider this week. Connellythink chairman for holding this important hearing, and the witnesses for being here today. I look forward to hearing from my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. I yield back the balance of my time. Rep. Connolly i think the chairwoman. I also think her for her leadership. After she was elected chairwoman, she and i had a conversation minutes after the election. The first thing she brought to my attention was postal reform, the need for comprehensive postal reform. Obviously, that has been a priority you have set. And i really appreciate it. I look forward to working with you on it, my colleagues and others. Rep. Connolly i will now call on congresswoman Brenda Lawrence for an Opening Statement. Mr. Keller, you will also be called on. Then we will hear from our witnesses. Thankawrence i want to chairman connelly for holding this important hearing. Prior to serving in congress, i spent almost 30 years with the United StatesPostal Service. During that time, i worked alongside some of the nations most dedicated public servants. Individuals that work long hours to ensure that the American People receive their mail in a timely manner. Existence services is a critical government service. It began in 1775. Throughout history, whether it was world wars or Global Pandemics, the Postal Service rose to the challenge and continued to deliver mail across this country and throughout the world. During the civil war, the Postal Service did not cease their operations. Outbreak, 1918 flu the same as a pandemic, covid19 that we are going through, the Postal Service never stopped continuing to move the mail even when people were dying within the service. To this day, the Postal Services ability to deliver the mail to Service Members serving at home and even abroad in a war zone provides a vital link to their families and to their friends back home. Never before have i seen a postmaster general undermined the Postal Services ability to do its work by undertaking the kind of drastic and ill formed operation changes that our current postmaster general has instituted in recent months. This veryng before Committee Last month, the postmaster general confessed that he did not know the Postal Services stated mission, and that he could not explain some of his most harmful operational changes. I feel like i am stating the obvious, but a businessman with no experience working in the Postal Service should not have changed operational procedures without first grasping the negative impacts they would have on our delivery. He ordered the removal of more machines, justg this year alone. Double the average of mail sorting machines that is removed on an annual basis. While i try to find the best in s recentr. Dejoy reversal can better be understood as an admission that his policy and not being more disastrous to the Postal Service then he even understood. Mail sorting machines are still being removed, leaving in question aboutr dejoy is serious correcting his mistakes. 700 machines and he has only been there four months. Caused incredible harm to thereputation and trust American People have in the Postal Service. In the midst of a pandemic, when millions of americans make plans disastrousmail, the policy by this postmaster general jeopardizes the American Peoples wellbeing and poses a threat to our democracy. I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses Today. I yield back. Rep. Connolly thank you. Thank you for your service. Mr. Kelly. Kelly first, i would like to echo the sentiments of the Ranking Member and say that reports about the postmaster general are speculation. Attemptring is another to attack the postmaster general instead of tackling the real issue of postal reform. My colleagues on the others of the aisle have been critical on the semester generals focus on efficiencies and have launched into conspiracy theories. The question is, why does usps need to be efficient . It is so that americans can have a reliable and affordable Postal Service. As one of our witnesses has mentioned, the postal 1970anization act of established the usps to be a selfsustaining businesslike entity which would cover its costs primarily with postage. When the Postal Service is spending money on inefficient routes and machines, those costs get passed on to americans in the form of slower service or possibly increased postage. Meaningful postal reform will require changes from the status quo and the Current Business model. The Government Accountability office recently published a report and the title says it all. Service,al congressional action is essential to enable a sustainable Business Model. Viability has been on the list since 2009, worsened by the longterm decline in mail since the rise of the internet. Mailound that firstclass declined 44 since fiscal year 2006 and that the Health Benefit fund is expected to be depleted serviceif the postal continues to not make payments. These are the issues we need to focus on and develop bipartisan solutions. We also need to hear from stakeholders who rely on the mail, like mr. Plunkett, republicans invited. Furthermore, the Postal Service needs to communicate a longterm Business Plan to congress, an item i have been requesting since the previous postmaster generals tenure. Lastly, i want to address the false notion about prioritizing the Postal Service. Mr. Chairman, i would like to submit to the record the uspss Mission Statement from the agencys website adopted by the board of governors on april 1, 2020. This was adopted by the very board of governors that someone is today claim are hyperpartisan actors. It was also created for postmaster dejoy arrived and remains unchanged. It states that part of its mission is to serve the American People and through the universal Service Obligation, find our nation together by maintaining and operating our unique infrastructure. To carry out this mission, the board of governors states that the Postal Service will remain an integral part of the u. S. Government, providing all americans with access to the unrivaled delivery and storefront network. The Postal Service is a crucial part of our nations communication and commerce. Hearings like the one today only weaken the Publics Trust in such an important institution. I yield back. Rep. Connolly i would also ask that we enter into the findings the enter into the record the finding of the Trump Task Force that President Trump put together a few years ago recommending privatization. So there is a contradiction that i think ought to be in the Public Record. , our first witness is and gravelle, currently serving as an adjunct professor at uc berkeley law. Then we will hear from david feynman, who is the former chairman of the Postal Service board of governors and currently ,erves as a senior partner chairman and secretary of their election center. We will hear from lisa graves, the executive director and editor in chief of true north research. We will hear from Michael Plunkett from the association for fiscal commerce. Us, ad peter is here with familiar figure here on this committee, a former chief white house ethics lawyer under the Bush Administration and parent law professor at the university of minnesota. If we can ask you to be on muted and raise your right hands. Swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . Let the record state that all of our witnesses answered in the affirmative. Your written statements to be part of the record. We ask you to summarize in your opening fiveminute statement what you want the committee to know. Welcome. And rakingu chairman member for the opportunity to testify. In his farewell address, president obama said something that is pertinent to this hearing. Our democracy is threatened whenever we take it for granted. Party,us, regardless of should throw ourselves into the task of rebuilding our democratic institutions. When voting rates are some of the lowest among advanced democracies, we should make it easier, not harder to vote. Institutions is low, we should reduce the corrosive influence of money in politics and insist on transparency and ethics in public service. We are seeing the results. Theserved as the chair of federal Elections Commission and we can definitely see it in the actions of mr. Dejoy. That is why it is so important to have this hearing on his violation of Campaign Finance laws, his potential transgressions, and the Postal Service, which is crucial for all citizens to be able to cast their ballots. Wasalmost 1 million that contributed by mr. Dejoys employees to political candidates and is urging, which was paid back through bonuses, funduslegal scheme diverted from the Corporate Treasury and laundered are prohibited. Even Citizens United held that it is corrupting for a corporation to contribute directly to candidates. Throughg the money employees is clearly illegal. Discussing similar facts, in 2017, the u. S. Department of justice concluded in their prosecution of election offenses manual, that contributions in the name of another is usually is often used to disguise other violations by those at their contribution limit and that a common conduit scheme involves a corporate official who instructs employees to make contributions to a candidate and then reimburses them from corporate funds, generally through fictitious bonuses or pay raises. s actions are the poster child for these violations. He coerced his employees to contribute. Employees thought their jobs were on the line or they would not be promoted. That inal again states all employment situations, the coercion, expressed or implied, is inherent in the relationship. So, contributions solicited from a subordinate are not voluntary. It is illegal to coerce any individual to make a engageution or in or in fundraising for a candidate. Threat toion is a democratic processes. Workers freedom of expression and exercising of their own political views is threatened. In almost every case of major significance over a decade, the fec has rarely enforced of the law. It is well known that the laws can be a north these ethics laws meant to stop corruption and provide valuable information to voters are essential to the fairness of the nickel process and ensuring trust in government. These protections lead to where we are today with mr. Dejoy, was skirting Campaign Finance laws, knowing that with no consequences for violations, a could instead be rewarded for his illegal and unethical acts. Now we have to be vigilant that our right to vote will not be impacted by a politicized Postal Service. Across the political spectrum, faith in the political process disintegrates as americans might question both the validity of the election and the governments response to the voting challenges. Andeturn faith in democracy put our protections back, we need to have hr one, the for the people eact, and acted. Rep. Connolly thank you. Right on the nose. Forhank you, mr. Chairman, inviting me to participate. A 501 c 3 irman of Nonpartisan Group that works diligently to ensure that every american has a right to vote. The clintoning both and Bush Administrations on the board of governors of the u. S. Postal service, and was chairman 2005. 003 to i would also indicate to you from ther did i hear president of the United States or any member of the executive branch regarding postal affairs. I was offended when the president referred to the Postal Service as a joke. I was even more offended when i realized that there were 600,000 employees who were not a joke, were risking their lives to deliver the mail every day, folks like al rosen, who after world war ii joined the Postal Service in philadelphia, stayed there over 30 years and led a wildcat strike in 1970. His son is a Fraternity Brother of mine. Joe, after graduating college and going to law school, joined the fbi. Career inistinguished the fbi and then came then became an immigration lawyer. There are so many stories like this. Al rosen was not a joke. Evident to became the American Public that the Postal Service was failing in its mission to deliver mail on a timely basis. A report in june of 1968 begins by describing how mail is piling up and not being delivered. It concludes that the reason for this is the intrusion of politics into the Postal Service. Wildcat strikes in most eastern cities, Congress Passed the reorganization act to take politics out of the Postal Service. Ascreated the Postal Service an independent establishment. Five of one party, four of another who would then select the postmaster general. This process was to lead to an apolitical postmaster general. 2006, the law was eliminated again, to eliminate a postal rate system and to allow the Postal Service more flexibility. However, it established the law that if the Postal Service was going to change the manner on which it delivered mail on a national basis, it had to go through the postal regulatory hearing. They decided not to do that. Filedulted in 25 lawsuits throughout the United States by attorney general. The law also requires that the Postal Service prefund it prefund its pension obligation for 75 years. This Congress Passed the house bill with 309 votes in a bipartisan manner. The bill presently sits on geordie leader mcconnells desk awaiting action by the senate. In my law practice, i sometimes act as a mediator. Theng heard the comments of republicans and democrats and there has not been one written statement against this legislation. I am asking the democrats and republicans on this committee, ask senator mcconnell to bring this bill to a vote before the senate. Generalsk, semester dejoy, chairman duncan, who seemed to be good friends with chairman mcconnell, to ask him to bring that bill to a vote before the senate. Rep. Connolly thank you, mr. Fineman. Ms. Grace. Good morning chairman, Ranking Member, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. I am the director of true north research. Likep lead collaborations the ben franklin project. Chief counsel for nominations of the u. S. Senate judiciary committee. Thorough vetting is essential for protecting the integrity of our democratic institutions. Candidatessure that for positions of public trust are highly qualified and will not put personal interest for the Public Interest. Unfortunately, with new information about mr. Dejoys background and actions, it is clear that the board of him. Nors failed to vet i am calling on mr. Dejoy to be fired or to resign. He is facing new, credible allegations of violating anticorruption laws by using straw donors. A congressman asked mr. Dejoy if he ever reimbursed employees for donations and he denied it. I ask the committee to make a formal referral to the u. S. Attorneys office to find out if this invests this violated the criminal code. Jr. Swore in a complaint that he was cheated out of the Family Business by mr. Dejoy, who secretly created private llcs. Mr. Dejoy admitted that they were separate but denies he did anything wrong. Dejoy hidthat lewis Bank Statements from two banks and an investment firm. No postmaster general in history has ever been subject to such charges before in a civil or criminal court for if mr. Dejoy cannot be trusted by his own flesh and blood with not hiding his mail, how can Americans Trust him with our votes . How can the board of governors approve a person with this troubling history to be postmaster general . The answer might be that mr. Dejoys political contributions made a difference. He has helped raise tens of millions of dollars to help keep senator mcconnell in power. Richard duncan admitted to the committee that dejoy was not originally on the list of prospective candidates for the job. Following 600,000 in contributions, mr. Dejoy suddenly jumped to the time of the list. It is wrong to make a partisan Political Insider in charge of the Postal Service, especially in an will mr. Dejoy use his power as the postmaster general to deliver our ballots on time or deliver the election to the man he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on and raised millions to help win, donald trump . Fourth, his financial contributions are enormous. He has tens of millions of dollars in stock, a contracting competitor of the Postal Service, and he received millions annually from it through leases and stock transactions. No known postmaster general in history has ever had such financial conflict like mr. Dejoy. Fifth, his destructive actions. Mr. Dejoys actions since he came to the job in june warrants his dismissal. If he was a probationary employee, he would have been fired a month ago. Mr. Dejoy suddenly fired or demoted two dozen Service Experts and on his watch restricted the availability over time and mail machines removed, far more than the usual amount in the past five years, he dictated a disruptive change in nationwide processes by ordering trucks depart even if the mail sorting was not complete. He even dictated where they could park. These dictates set chaos and hardships for Senior Citizens and veterans whose lifesaving prescriptions are being delivered late. Our personal Service Postal someone of the highest integrity, not someone the and arrogance like mr. Dejoy. Six, unfortunately, his actions may be paving the way to privatizing it. As i documented, it was been proposed since the early 1970s. They have been running digital adds to pressure senators to not give the Postal Service relief funds thats previously requested. [indiscernible] an extraordinary liability no other agency or company had. But mr. Dejoy playing partisan politics by refusing to seek the covid relief funding it needs. In conclusion, i urge congress to protect the Postal Service mission and the American People and integrity of our elections by calling for him to be fired. By fully investigating his activities and by restoring the role approving the postmaster, restructuring the board, and repealing the 2006 unprecedented debt anchor and other restrictions. The Postal Service belongs to us. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Chair connolly thank you, ms. Graves. Mr. Michael plunkett, you are recognized for five minutes. Mr. Plunkett good afternoon, thank you for the opportunity to speak today about the current state of the Postal Service. Im here on behalf the association for Postal Service commerce. Our members are world class organizations in financial service, health care, telecommunications, logistics, mail production, technology, and shipping. They include some of the most recognizable brands in the world as well as small proprietors offering Specialty Products and services. This Diverse Group is united in its reliance on the Postal Service and committed to ensuring reliable Postal Services remain available to all u. S. Businesses and citizens. The Postal Service is a beloved Public Institution and critical component of the nations economic infrastructure. Also it is the center of the mailing industry that employs more than seven million americans, providing jobs never jobs in every state and accounting for more than 1 trillion in annual revenue. Like many states, ours has been heart by covid19. Along with economic turmoil, the pandemic has brought into sharp focus the importance of the Postal Service to the American Public. Postal employees have served the public admirably since the pandemic began and been a reassuring presence in our communities during a difficult time. At the same time, the pandemic has brought about sudden and dramatic shifts in consumer behavior, exposing the underlying fragility of the system. Most members rely on the Postal Service to deliver bills, statements, magazines, prescription medications, packages, catalogs and essential business communications. Our members to a great extent fund the provision of a universal Postal Service in the United States through the rates they pay for commercial mail and shipping services. As Congress Considers how best to provide support to the Postal Service, we urge a measured and targeted approach with safeguards to ensure accountability for how relief funding is utilized. We recognize Postal Service has expenses tooreseen ensure protective equipment and Emergency Services as a result of covid19. The understandable desire of legislators to provide relief should not lead to excessive and unnecessary diversion of resources that is may be better deployed elsewhere and do little to address the challenges facing the Postal Service. Despite persistent stories about imminent collapse, the Postal Service has adequate resources and capacity to successfully navigate the 2020 election cycle. According to its own reporting, at the end of the third quarter, the Postal Service had Cash Holdings approaching 13 billion and since that time revenues have been growing thanks to Significant Growth in the package business. In the most recent postal quarter, the Postal Service generated almost 2 billion in cash flow from its operations. No one can say whether these shifts from letter mail is permanent, whether package growth will sustain the service or whether letter mail will rebound when the pandemic recedes and the economy improves. But the cares act passed earlier this year provides 10 billion in Borrowing Authority for the Postal Service should unforeseen events happen. Events create the need. The post mansour confirmed the post office the postmaster confirmed the post office has liquidity and could be funded until 2021. Some contemplated by congress it would barely make a dent to a financially sound Postal Service. Its longterm retirement liabilities. In fact, our members are concerned major really funding could lead congress to continue to postpone much needed postal reform. We respectfully urge congress to enact comprehensive postal reform legislation to secure the future of the Postal Service. In order for mail to fulfill the statutory role to the economy, it must be affordable and reliable means for communicating and helping business. Willlieve stakeholders perform legislation on several elements. One, a welldefined universal Service Obligation based on an estimate what the u. S. Needs from the postal system. Two, safeguards to ensure users of the monopoly products maintain pricing predictability. Three, revised approach to funding the retiree obligation by using strategies more in line with best practices. Finally, oversight to ensure accountability and transparency are maintained. Else funds provided by ratepayers or appropriated by congress may be squandered or misused. The Postal Service is not on the verge of imminent collapse. The covid pandemic is a reminder it remains a vital part of our economy and the civic life of americans. The Postal Service has the employees, resources, and capacity it needs to perform its mission during the current election cycle without a massive infusion of supplemental funding. However, the systemic challenges that plague the Postal Service remain. Because of the postal relief currently under consideration is unnecessary in the short term and inadequate in the long run, we respectfully suggest Congress Instead focus its efforts on muchneeded and long overdue postal reform. Thank you so much. Mr. Connolly thank you. Right on the money, mr. Plunkett. Finally, but not least, mr. Painter. Mr. Painter thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Ranking member, members of the committee. Im richard painter, a law professor at the university of minnesota. And from 2005 to 2007, as the chief white house ethics lawyer for president george w. Bush. In the white house ethics office, one of our principal obligations was to make sure that senior appointees and nominees to the executive branch were free of financial conflicts of interest. And the reason is that financial conflicts of interest in federal office are a crime. 18 United States code 208 makes it a crime for a United StatesGovernment Official to participate in a particular matter that has the direct and predictable effect on the financial interests of that Government Official. And that statute, its a criminal statute, 18 united please read it, members of the committee and staff. It applies to generally applicable matters that have a direct and predictable effect on identifiable class of persons or companies if the Government Official has a financial interest in the committee. In the company. This is the reason why in the Bush Administration we never allowed the head of an agency to have any financial interest in a company that had substantial contracts with that agency. I certainly never allowed it. When i looked at the Financial Disclosure forms and we sent those nominations onto the senate, we would not have tolerated that for anyone in the executive branch, whether or not nominated by the president , appointed by the president or anyone else in a senior position. Why . Because there is a grave risk that that person will commit a crime when theyre in office. How can you run the post office and make decisions about scheduling the mail, about the specifications for contracts, about when the trucks leave and all those decisions if you own millions of dollars of stock in a company that is trucking the mail around . A contractor with a post office. It doesnt make any sense. So either mr. Dejoy, postmaster general, has not been doing his job over the past 13 weeks or so or hes committed a crime that can be a felony. We should not be in that situation. Another thing we did in the Bush White House is we looked at the background of people who were coming into public service. We did not want to bring in people who had violated the law. I will not opine as to whether mr. Dejoy violated Campaign Finance laws. I will say that if the stories reported in the Washington Post and the New York Times are true or any piece of those is true about reimbursement of employees for campaign contributions, that is a straw donor arrangement and thats a felony. People go to jail for that. So we have a very real possibility, possibility im not saying for certain but a possibility that the postmaster general of the United States may have committed a felony before entering office and in office on 18 United States code 208 in office. This is a grave situation. It requires an investigation by this committee. It is your job to investigate. This is not a Kangaroo Court. I am offended as an american and having been a republican for 30 years to hear that language used. Its your job to investigate this. I submitted an additional letter with professor Claire Finkelstein at the university of pennsylvania outlining additional concerns about the post office and i will be open to your questions. This is a matter of great concern for the American People. Thank you for your time. Mr. Connolly thank you, mr. Painter, for your testimony. And the chair will recognize himself for five minutes. And let me begin with you, mr. Painter. Weve heard that having a hearing that includes in large part an examination of the professional practices and potential conflicts of interest and allegations that have been corroborated by other members of the media, besides the Washington Post investigative team, with respect to illegal straw donations, do you believe thats a worthy subject of this committee and that it is in fact directly related to the operational changes undertaken by that individual . Mr. Painter certainly is. A legitimate area of inquiry for this committee. The integrity of Public Officials in this country is critically important. That is why we screened out people with that type of ground in the Bush White House. Why . Because we knew if we didnt, our officials will be sitting in front of this committee answering questions because this committee is doing its job. Thats what oversight is. And, yes, if you bring in someone who has committed Campaign Finance violations, whos willing to do anything, including violate the law to elect someone who they want to be president or to win other elections, whats going to stop them from doing it when they run the government agency, whether its the United StatesPostal Service or any other agency . So, yes, you are doing your job when you conduct these hearings. Mr. Connolly remind us again what your position was in the george w. Bush administration . Mr. Painter i was the ethics lawyer and associate counsel to the president. Mr. Connolly a republican president . Mr. Painter i was a member of the Republican Party for 30 years up to 2018. Mr. Connolly so what we know just from the Public Record, if you were in that same position today, would that have raised flags for you . And what would you have done about it in terms of the idea that this person could be named postmaster general or for that matter any position . Mr. Painter well, because postmaster general is not nominated by the president , its an appointment made by the board. Mr. Connolly right. Mr. Painter if we heard about it, we would have contacted the board and made it very clear that it is unacceptable to have a postmaster general who has any record of Campaign Finance violations. Either that story in the Washington Post, in the New York Times is true or not true, we will find out before we nominate, before the board nominates someone. Financial conflicts of interest of this sort, absolutely unacceptable. Its a no go. Mr. Connolly do you believe that the board of governors has a fiduciary responsibility to have done Due Diligence in terms of background checks on the postmaster general before appointing him . Mr. Painter absolutely. Ive taught corporate and Securities Law and i worked with Nonprofit Organization board of directors. Directors have fiduciary obligations and that includes investigating the background of people appointed to senior positions and screening conflicts of interest so people dont violate the law when they are in their position. Mr. Connolly mr. Fineman, you were director of the postal board of governors, is that correct . Mr. Fineman thats correct. Mr. Connolly based on what we know from the Public Record and activities by this full committee and subcommittee, do you believe the board of governors in fact did its Due Diligence in a thorough background check before appointing mr. Dejoy as postmaster general . Mr. Fineman what i hear, whats coming out in the press clearly were things where the board of governors should have and i suspected they would have found out had they done an investigation. Mr. Connolly as former chairman of the board of governors, do you what is your view about the connection of the personal background, professional background as candidate for postmaster general and the potential connection with the operations of the Postal Service which he or she in fact theoretically head, is there a connection . Mr. Fineman mr. Chairman, there certainly is a connection. I think i understand professor painters point of view. I would extend it a little bit further. I would think that if there is an apparent conflict of interest, we should not hire that person as a postmaster general. And you might ask why. Well, its because the American Public is entitled to have confidence in their that the mail is going to be delivered and its not going to be in any way, shape, or form compromised by the actions of the postmaster general. Mr. Connolly thank you, mr. Fineman. My time is up. The chair now recognizes the distinguished Ranking Member mr. Hice, for his five minutes. Mr. Hice thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to note out of curiosity if any of our Witnesses Today are currently employed by the usps, those online, if you can answer if you are . Not currently, no. Mr. Hice i would just like for the record to reflect that none of our Witnesses Today are employed by the Postal Service and yet our hearing today is supposed to be about a postal update. And here we have no witnesses who are part of the Postal Service. In fact, we have witnesses who basically can do nothing on the issue of what this hearing really is turning into being. They can do nothing but speculate. We have a law professor, a Law School Lecturer who has determined guilt based from a Washington Post article. I counted at least two or three times, mr. Painter, that you assumed guilt already to mr. Dejoy. I dont see that as being very professional at all. This is not oversight. This is, again, an attempt to create political assassination, as i referred to in my Opening Statements. When it comes to the question of whether or not mr. Dejoy broke any Campaign Finance laws, mr. Painter, wouldnt you agree that really you have no more information than the general public has at this point . Mr. Painter thats a false statement. I did not. And im going to repeat that i do not know whether the Campaign Finance laws were violated. It is a false statement that i assumed guilt. But if those stories are true, what are described in those stories is multiple felonies. It must be investigated. Mr. Hice ok. Mr. Painter its unacceptable to have someone in a position of trust in our government who is suspected of those types of violations of the law. The same with respect to 18 United States code 208. I do not know for certain if there is a violation. Mr. Hice mr. Painter, you are answering questions i did not ask. Mr. Painter you said i assumed guilt and i did not. Hice im going to go on with my questions. What we have is your opinion, which is fine. Youre certainly entitled to your opinion. But its a hypothetical opinion at this point. Because its based on an article. Theres not been any investigation thats come down to it. Can you explain to me what x. P. O. Does . Mr. Painter x. P. O. , to the best of my knowledge, ships mail in trucks and performs other logistic operations for the United StatesPostal Service. Once again, i have not assumed that the postmaster general has necessarily committed a crime but the fact of the matter is we have a contractor with large contracts with the Postal Service and there is a very high degree of likelihood that a postmaster general who is doing his job would be making decisions that have a direct and predictable effect on a contractor of that size with the Postal Service. Mr. Hice are you qualified to evaluate whether or not the relationship between x. P. O. And usps has risen to the conflict of interest . Mr. Painter yes. I made that decision for the Bush Administration. No one goes into a position mr. Hice are you a member of the board of governors . Mr. Painter i made that determination. You dont get that job if you keep stock in a contractor with your agency. Thats a dealbreaker because you could go into Public Office and commit a felony. And that i did repeatedly. And i told people, you have to sell the stock. You dont go to the department of defense and unstock a defense contractor. Mr. Hice i asked if you are qualified to make the assessment and you are going back to your time during the Bush Administration. My question is on this particular situation, and you are not a member of the board of governors. You are not part of the vetting. The board of governors did do vetting. They did look into these issues. Are you aware that mr. Dejoy did divest certain assets that he had . Mr. Painter yes, i know he divested. He owns contract stock in a company that has large contracts with the Postal Service. I am qualified to say that is unacceptable. It would have been a dealbreaker in the Bush Administration. We would not have nominated, appointed or approved in any way of a Senior Executive branch official. Mr. Hice the board of governors did. He has divested other assets. When it came to x. P. O. , the u. S. Postal service cleared him to hold the assets whether its wise or not i am not getting into. He made clear transparent, he laid out there his assets and he was cleared, is that correct . Mr. Painter the board of governors made that decision and i am here to say its wrong and i am qualified to say its wrong and it poses a risk that he could commit a crime in office. Mr. Hice sounds like he confirmed his belief that a crime has been committed. Mr. Painter i said a grave risk that a crime would be committed. Mr. Connolly for the record, the chair heard mr. Painter frame it in a hypothetical. Should if this were true. The chair now recognizes the distinguished chairwoman, mrs. Maloney, for her five minutes. Ms. Maloney thank you very much. I thank all of the panelists for their really important testimony. Mr. Fineman, you have extensive experience with the highlevel inner workings of the Postal Service. You spent 10 years on the board of governors. You really are an expert on the Postal Service and the board of governors. I would like to ask you about the process of selecting the postmaster general. In your 10 years on the board, you were involved in the hiring of two postmasters, one in 1998 and the other in 2001. Is that correct . Mr. Fineman yes. Ms. Maloney during those Selection Processes, was it standard for the board to contract an outside firm to conduct the search . Mr. Fineman yes, it was. Ms. Maloney well, that makes sense. The board is small and needs to perform an executive search for one of our countrys most important independent agencies. Now, during our hearing on august 24, chairman duncan indicated that he put mr. Dejoys name into consideration. After Russell Reynolds associates had already provided a list of qualified candidates to the board for consideration, he went into detail. They had many people considered. They narrowed it down to 200. Then to 50. Then to 12. In either of your Selection Processes for postmaster general that you participated in, did Board Members add candidates after the search firm had already done its work to narrow down the list of candidates, possible candidates . Mr. Fineman to the best of my recollection, i do not remember anyone recommending anyone on a personal basis. And quite frankly, if they did, it wouldnt come before the board initially. It would go back to the search firm so they could do their Due Diligence about the candidate. Ms. Maloney thank you. The process the board followed in this instance, to me, seems very unusual. In your experience, how is the Selection Process for the postmaster general supposed to work . Mr. Fineman in hiring an executive search firm, the executive search firm gives you a multitude of candidates. You narrow down that multitude of candidates. They do some interviewing, and then we come down to about, i dont know, 10 or so candidates that we interview, that the board interviews. Ms. Maloney well, mr. Fineman mr. Fineman we make the determination as to who we want to hire. And in that process, we are getting information about the background of all of the individuals. Ms. Maloney thank you. Now, if you were still on the board, would you have gone out of your way to add mr. Dejoy to the list of candidates . Would you have chosen him . Mr. Fineman let me first say that i would not have gone out of my way. If youre asking me whether i would have chosen him, the answer would be no. Its apparent that there was a conflict of interest to begin with. That he still had an interest in one of the largest contractors with the United StatesPostal Service. As i said before, its not even the direct conflict. Its the appearance of a conflict. Which would concern me. And secondly, if i can just say, if we leave aside the conflict issues, when youre looking for a postmaster general, there are certain things that we look for. We look for communication skills. Am i going to is the postmaster general going to be able to communicate with the stakeholders of the Postal Service . Ms. Maloney reclaiming my time because my time is limited. Mr. Fineman that means you and your republican colleagues. Ms. Maloney ok. So mr. Fineman, we have requested information about the search from the board. But to date, they have refused to provide us with any information at all. Do you think it is appropriate for the board to refuse to work with this Committee Given the responsibilities we have for oversight for the Postal Service . Mr. Fineman absolutely not. They should be giving you what you asked for, and quite frankly, they should be giving you more than you ask for. Ms. Maloney thank you. Thank you very much. And very, very quickly, mr. Plunkett. The metadata in your testimony says it was written by Jessica Lawrence. Who is Jessica Lawrence . Mr. Plunkett shes my predecessor at my current position. And i used a document template that had her name on it. Ms. Maloney so she did not write it but it looked like she did . Mr. Plunkett absolutely not. Ms. Maloney my time has expired. I particularly want to thank everyone for being here today. Especially mr. Richard painter. The post office should be a bipartisan, nonpartisan position that serves the American People and you made that point very clear. I thank you for your service. For all the Participants Service and for you being here today. I yield back. Mr. Connolly i thank the distinguished chairwoman. The gentleman from alabama, mr. Palmer, is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Palmer i thank the chairman. First of all, this is all about politics. Its really not about the post office. And the witnesses reflect that. Its remarkable some of the claims that have been made by these individuals. Ms. Graves raising questions in her work about dark money and sources of funds when her own organization received over 500,000 from outside sources. Mr. Painter apparently thinks hes still campaigning for office. Youre very animated in your responses. Yet and you want to tout your republican credentials when you ran for the senate as a democrat. And in 2016, you filed a complaint claiming that james comey violated the hatch act when he released information about the newly discovered emails on Hillary Clintons computers. And it just this just seems like its not really about trying to resolve anything related to the post office. If it were, this would have been done years ago when during the Obama Administration they were going to shut down 3,700 post offices. I know mr. Connolly cares deeply about this. I think you and i and other members of this Committee Really want to see reform for the post office. But they were planning to cut 14 billion sorry cut 10 billion in cuts and close 3,700 post offices and cut 120,000 jobs. And this is all documented in the Washington Post. Since were using the Washington Post as a source. I got multiple articles here from the Washington Post. Talking about the delay and delivery of mail, the changes that were being made, the closure of sorting facilities. Not just taking sorting machines out but closing facilities. Mr. Connolly if the gentleman will yield . Well freeze this time. Please freeze this time. Just as a matter of record, it was not the Obama Administration. It was the Postal Service. It was under the previous postmaster general prior to ms. Brennan. Ms. Donahue. I will point out on a bipartisan basis there was an uproar in congress about it and we got it stopped because it was being done unilaterally. It was being doing capriciously and there was no consultation with members or communities affected. I just want to make that point because there was mr. Comer mentioned in our last hearing that where was the democratic outrage then . Actually, there was a ton of it. And i was here for that. It was on a bipartisan basis. Because that postmaster general didnt do his consultation with the administration or with congress. I thank my friend for yielding. And his time is intact. Mr. Palmer and i appreciate your comments on that. And it was an outrage with congress. But the point is, that the post office has had major, major problems for years. And weve been trying to sort through this. In the most affective way that we can effective way that we can to resolve the problems with the post office. But now its become political when i would like to also point out that the changes that the current postmaster general has been accused of making were implemented before he took office. To make the same point youre making, i think were casting aspersions where theyre not justified. For these other issues. I just think that this has become so highly partisan. And just as to the divisiveness of our ability of whats going on in congress that makes our ability to get anything done almost impossible. And to bring in witnesses who are as partisan as these witnesses are, this is not productive. This doesnt advance the agenda for the post office in any form or fashion. Thats my problem with this hearing. I know, mr. Chairman, where your heart is for reform. But, again, i just take exception at what im hearing here today. With that ill yield back. Mr. Connolly i thank the gentleman. The gentlelady from the district of columbia, congresswoman norton, is recognized for her five minutes. Mr. Connolly congresswoman norton, are you there . Mr. Norton im trying to mr. Connolly well return to congresswoman norton. Ms. Norton can you hear me now . Mr. Connolly we can. Ms. Norton sorry about that. Mr. Chairman, i note that the Ranking Member wondered why you were having this hearing. I simply want to commend you for this hearing. The Postal Service may be the most Important Agency in the United States today. When you consider the pandemic and how people are getting their medicines. Not to mention the upcoming election. So i appreciate the hearing very much. Let me go on to my first question. Mr. Chairman rather, mr. Fineman, this question is for you. Because as a former chair of the postal board of services, you will be particularly qualified, it seems to me, to answer this question. It has to do with privatizing the Postal Service. Now, i note that the reorganization document of the Administration Made it clear it wanted to privatize the Postal Service. Mr. Fineman, as the former chair of the board of governors. Mr. Connolly can you turn on your video, please . Ms. Norton sorry. I thought can you see me now . Mr. Connolly not yet. Ms. Norton wait a minute. Start video. It says start video. And i have been on before. I have been on the whole time of this hearing. Mr. Connolly i know. I know. But for some reason we dont see you . Ms. Norton not yet. I can see me. Mr. Connolly a Beautiful Image it is, im sure. But we have a technical problem here. Ms. Norton i can see me on my screen. And i can hear me. Mr. Connolly ok. Were going to have to put up with technical problems. If theres no objection, the gentlelady may proceed. Hopefully her visual will come through shortly. Thank you. Ms. Norton ok. Mr. Connolly thank you, ms. Norton. Ms. Norton mr. Fineman, id like to know, since the notion of privatizing the Postal Service is on the administrations mind, who would benefit from privatizing the Postal Service . Mr. Fineman . And who, if anybody, would lose . Mr. Fineman well, lets start with your first question, who would benefit . More than likely the private Delivery Services would benefit. As you raise the prices of Postal Service and as you diminish its capability, more and more people will go to the private Delivery Services to get their mail delivered, their packages delivered, etc. And thats who would benefit. So lets talk about whose services would be diminished . Particularly Rural America. I know if congressman keller is still there, congressman, i know your district. Sullivan county, pennsylvania, where i spent a fair amount of time. Its one of the most beautiful places in america. And those people will not get mail on a regular basis if its privatized. The same goes for people in potter county. And congresswoman holmes, let me just say, your constituents will not get mail on a regular basis if its privatized. People in the inner cities. People in north philadelphia. In west pennsylvania. Theyre not going to get mail on a regular basis. Why . Because its not profitable to private Delivery Companies to deliver mail regularly, universally, to the inner city and to Rural America. And quite frankly, one of the largest customers over the years of the United StatesPostal Service has been private Delivery Companies. Because when they have packages, they cant that they do not want to deliver, you know who they give it to . They give it to the United StatesPostal Service. Because theyre going to deliver packages into montana, packages into iowa. And the private Delivery Companies cant make money doing it. They cant fill that truck with enough packages to go into Rural America to deliver packages. Ms. Norton you made a very important point. This kind of lastmile delivery to places in the United States where it is clearly unprofitable and yet they see their mail every day like i do in a big city. It seems very important of me to note. Ms. Graves, could you speak to the concerns that the board of governors a member of the board of governors or a member of congress or a member of the public would have with a candidate like mr. Dejoy who invests in companies that benefit from Postal Service contracts or would benefit if the Postal Service moves to privatization . Ms. Graves thank you so much, congresswoman, for your question. I think that its important for the American People to understand that it is a tremendous conflict of interest, as the other witnesses have testified to, for a postmaster general to have millions of dollars in stock in a company that does business with the u. S. Postal service. I in fact one of the things that x. P. O. Has with the hundreds of contracts had has with the Postal Service revenue between 27 million a year, it helps deliver the mail during peak holiday time and during the election. Here we are with a postmaster general who has been appointed to this position in part because basically because hs a donor to this president. And he was chosen by mike duncan, the man who helped Mitch Mcconnell stay in power in the United States senate. And so, when congressman congressman pardon me when the congressman mentions the politicization of the Postal Service, i would say to you its coming from the Postal Service and its held through this election of mr. Dejoy by mr. Duncan, whose term by the way, hell serve until 2025 unless hes removed. So you have a postmaster general and a chairman of the board who are the most political people to ever hold this position in its history since the 1970s, since those reforms. And you have this pattern now, this summer, of these specific changes and edicts by mr. Dejoy which have affected Senior Citizens and veterans. Mr. Connolly thank you. Im sorry. The gentleladys time has expired. Ms. Norton i apologize. Its not mr. Graves. Its ms. Graves. Mr. Connolly thank you. The gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. Keller, is recognized for his five minutes. Mr. Keller thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to get at things. I know my district has brought up, sullivan county, potter county, all 15 counties which i do advocate for the people every day. That is my job and i will continue to do that. I wish that the people on the other side of the aisle would have the same concern to make sure that my constituents get mail, to make sure we stand up for the hardworking people of the United States post office that process and deliver our mail and do all the good work and get down to really postal reforms which is what i thought this hearing was about but somehow its devolved into political contributions and accusations that were put out in the print of the New York Times and the Washington Post. So im a little disappointed where were headed with this. Since were there, mr. Painter, you brought up accusations in the Washington Post and New York Times. Are you aware they published stories that were then found not to be true . Easy question. Mr. Painter i dont know whether this story mr. Keller the question is yes or no. Have you ever been made aware that what they published is not accurate . Mr. Painter i think every once in a while i said if true its a crime. Mr. Keller again, i wish we were getting down to making sure that the Postal Service has the tools it needs to do its job. Since we are on political contributions, ill ask questions. Mr. Fineman, have you ever made political contributions to Political Campaigns . Mr. Fineman absolutely. Mr. Keller ok. What party . Mr. Fineman both democrats and republicans. Mr. Keller have you contributed to any democrats this cycle . Mr. Fineman i would like to tell you mr. Keller i have the record. Ms. Ravel, have you contributed to Political Campaigns . Yes or no . Is that question directed to me . Mr. Keller ann ravel. Ms. Ravel im on the phone. Mr. Keller excuse me. I didnt get the answer. Mr. Connolly ms. Ravel, can you repeat your answer . Ms. Ravel the question was, have i contributed to campaigns . Mr. Keller thats the issue we are talking about today. Ms. Ravel yes. Ms. Keller ms. Graves . Ms. Graves i have not contributed money to donald trump. I have not made any contributions in this cycle. But i would note mr. Keller yes or no is the question. Mr. Richard painter, have you contributed to campaigns . Mr. Painter yes. Thousands of dollars to republican campaigns. Mr. Keller thank you. Mr. Plunkett, have you contributed to campaigns . Mr. Plunkett yes. Mr. Keller again, id think rather having people contributed to campaigns, we would have people in here that understand the Postal Service and understand how well make reforms so this can be sustained. And ive heard much testimony today tearing down character based upon stories written in newspapers and other items. If anybody has done anything illegal, ill be the first one to tell you they should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. We should also i thought what we were looking at is making sure that the United StatesPostal Service provides the good service that they do for a very, very long period, taking care of our constituents that rely on that and on that and also taking care of the people that do the work every day but were not here doing that. Were here doing many other things. Its quite frankly disappointing. The other thing i would like to say im very committed to making sure that we have i heard the issue of prepay of benefits. Its a serious thing. When the fund that pays for postemployment benefits is in danger of running out of money in the upcoming of years. Its when answer employee is hired, you make a contribution now so every time when they retire there are adequate Funds Available to pay for that employees benefits. Those are the things we should be discussing. We should be discussing how we Work Together across the aisle to make sure that those things are accomplished. Not all the other things have gone on. I guess ive proven my point. If its about Political Campaigns, maybe we ought to adjourn this meeting and go on to a meeting where we can actually get down to the business of solving the issues with the United StatesPostal Service. Thank you and i yield back. Mr. Connolly i thank the gentleman. As the coauthor of the major reform bill that was cosponsored with my friend, mark meadows, i assure the gentleman from pennsylvania of the commitment of this subCommittee Chair and i know of the full Committee Chair to postal reform. I would also note for the record, the issue before us that was being discussed was not whether somebody made a Political Campaign contribution. Theres nothing wrong with that. The question alleged in the Washington Post and the New York Times and other Media Outlets was whether straw donations occurred. Whether in fact there was, a, pressure or coercely. And secondly, a violation of law by covering those donations through bonuses or salary. That is illegal. And that was what was being pursued. Not whether somebody made a contribution. And this mr. Keller mr. Chairman, if i can, though. In the United States of america, under our constitution, people are presumed innocent until Proven Guilty and they are not supposed to be Proven Guilty or innocent which a by a newspaper article. Mr. Connolly thats right. For the committee, this for this committee, we have to make an investigation of charges of someone including serving yor district. As well as mine. Mr. Keller where are lets get mr. Keller thats get down to that. Mr. Connolly mr. Keller, thats what were trying to do. You are trying to discredit this examination as having nothing to do with the operations of the Postal Service and with that, respectfully, i disagree. The chair recognizes the gentleman from maryland, mr. Sarbanes, for five minutes. Mr. Sarbanes thanks very much, mr. Chairman. Can you hear me . Mr. Connolly we can. And we can see you. Mr. Sarbanes thank you. As you know, mr. Chairman, on august 24 in front of the full oversight committee, postmaster general dejoy and usps board of governors testified and at that time mr. Dejoy stated, quote, i have no patterns of misconduct in my background, end quote. Well, obviously based on what we know now, based on some of the testimony were getting today, we know that assertion is patently absurd. In fact, amid the endless parade of conflicts of interest weve seen from the trump administration, mr. Dejoys conduct sinks to new depths. Let me pick up on this straw donor situation we have been talking about. Mr. Dejoy was chairman and c. E. O. Of new breed logistics from 1983 to 2014. As the post reported, between 2000 and 2017, he may have allegedly operated this kind of straw donor scheme at his company by reimbursing employees in their salaries for contributions they made to republican candidates. Ms. Ravel, if the reports from the Washington Post about mr. Dejoy are true, and knowing what you do about Campaign Finance law, would you say that those would qualify as misconduct . Ms. Ravel yes, senator congressman sarbanes. If they are true, and since they quoted employees who indicated that there is veracity to it, it would certainly qualify as criminal conduct in addition to civil. So theres no question about it. And which is why, in my testimony, i quoted the department of justice who in 2017 indicated that these sorts of schemes are clearly illegal and they are in fact over 10,000, the person could be convicted and sent to jail for two years. And even more, which is whats alleged in this case, for five minutes. So i think they are very serious allegations. Mr. Sarbanes in fact, the thank you for that. In fact, the post found that between 2000 and 2014, 124 individuals who worked for the company together gave more than 1 million to federal and state gop candidates. And this is worth noting. Many of these individuals had not previously made political donations. And theyve not made any political donations since leaving the company. So something was going on there. And as a former commissioner of the federal election commission, id be interested in knowing from you whether if the allegations are true, exactly how does mr. Dejoys actions violate the federal election laws . Whats the chapter and verse on that in terms of these straw donor schemes . Were not hearing you. Ms. Ravel oh, so sorry. Im so sorry for the sound. The background. It is illegal and a felony to reimburse contributions. There is no question. If it is serious and willful, thats what the law provides. When a person contributes, wants to contribute to a campaign but doesnt want to disclose that theyre the donor, either because its an illegal contribution from a corporation or from some other reason they dont want to be identified, the statute is extremely clear that that is on its face illegal. Mr. Sarbanes let me jump in, ms. Ravel. Let me jump in real quick because i want to get something on the record from you. If the f. E. C. Should hold mr. Dejoy accountable, whos culpable in situations like this where employees are being paid to act through the company for political contributions they make . And what would you say to employees who are wrestling with whether to come forward and provide information about this general donor . Mr. Connolly the gentlemans time has expired but the witness may respond. Ms. Ravel thank you. When the c. E. O. Is pestering employees to make these kinds of contributions, it is the c. E. O. Who is culpable. That is very clear in the law. If the recipient committee knows they received the money through a fraudulent scheme, they should refund the money to the original source. Given the information we know, it is it would not eliminate the culpability of the person who engaged in the straw donor scheme. Mr. Connolly thank you. Mr. Sarbanes thank you. Mr. Connolly the gentleman from wisconsin, mr. Grothman, is recognized for his five minutes. Mr. Grothman thank you. I have some questions for mr. Plunkett. But first of all, id like to thank mr. Palmer for his questions. It shouldnt matter the political background of someone. I have been left under the impression that mr. Painter was a democrat unless mr. Palmer brought up that he had was a republican unless it was mr. Palmer said he ran for u. S. Senate. I never would have dreamed from his testimony. Mr. Painter mr. Chairman, i am not a democrat. Im an independent. Its just not true. I ran in an open primary as an independent. Mr. Grothman ok. But not a republican. Mr. Plunkett, a lot of the attention mr. Painter sorry. Did you say you were an mr. Connolly did you say you were an independent . Mr. Painter no. Mr. Connolly go ahead, mr. Grothman. Mr. Grothman are you an independent . Mr. Painter i was a republican for 30 years. I became an independent because of my disgust whats happened in the party. Mr. Grothman postmaster general dejoy is trying to rein in costs. Do you feel his cost control measures benefits mailers and anyone using the postal system . Well, certainly, any efforts that makes the Postal Service more efficient would benefit the use of the system. Last week, the Postal Services office of the inspectr general issued a report that overtime usage had increased at the Postal Service by 30 . Despite the fact that mail declined in either one of those years. So we care very much that efforts are maintained to keep the Postal Service efficient and to remove unnecessary costs. Mr. Grothman you dont feel hes been sabotaging the post office or the mail . You feel things done so far are moving things in the right direction . Mr. Fineman i would say the things weve observed so far are very consistent with similar efforts in the past under different post masters general and were not all that surprising to be honest. Mr. Grothman how long have you been involved in postal policy . Mr. Fineman this is my fifth year and i worked for the Postal Service for approximately 28 years. Mr. Grothman you should know about the Postal Service, it should be you. How long has the Postal Service lost money . Mr. Fineman oh, i think every year going back to at least 2008. Mr. Grothman ok. Can you give me suggestions how you feel they can get a handle on costs . Mr. Fineman well, i certainly think efforts to increase productivity would be beneficial and are much needed. I would encourage the Postal Service to concentrate its efforts on making its lastmile Delivery Network as efficient as possible. As i said in my testimony, i think there are Things Congress can do that can relieve some of the unnecessary and burdensome retirement funding that would benefit the system. I also think we really need to take a look at the Postal Service obligation and determine exactly what the American Public needs in the 21st century. It really it goes back to 1970 and it needs reexamination. Mr. Grothman ok. The Postal Service determine the 25 billion in a fiveyear period was paid for overtime and that the amount of employees who earn more overtime than straight pay increased by 430 during that time. How can we get those costs under control . Do you have any specific ideas on the overtime . Mr. Fineman well, the report was maybe not as detailed in providing complete answers as to how that should take. I think, for example, some of the things that we know the Postal Service is attempting to do, taking out excess equipment. Eliminating unnecessary transportation trips. All of those things can help. And all needs to be done to ensure that the costs of the Postal Service remain under control. Mr. Grothman ok. I always had good experience from the post office. I know some of the postal workers in my district tell me theyre getting more overtime than they want. Of course, some people always love the overtime. But overall, i think in my life i had one letter not delivered to me on time. Do you feel overall the post office is doing a good job delivering the mail . Mr. Fineman in general, yes. The post Office Delivers mail very well, especially firstclass mail. I think theyve been tested because of the increase in packages theyre seeing as a result of the pandemic is not really what their network was designed for. Overall, the Postal Service does an excellent job delivering the mail. Mr. Grothman just to emphasize i go back to what e talked about a couple weeks ago. Is it true the post office is it really true their sales have gone up since the pandemic . Mr. Fineman actually, yes. In the last few months, Postal Service revenues are above planned and above last year so they are exceeding revenue expectations. Mr. Grothman thank you for the time. Mr. Connolly id enter into the record what has already been entered into the full committee record the Service Performance measurement, a briefing of the postmaster general by the Postal Service, which shows, contrary to what mr. Plunkett asserted, quote, a sharp decline in Service Since week 41, which happens to be the same week in which mr. Dejoy took over the Postal Service. And it consistently shows a fairly substantial 7 to 8 decline in service below the baseline. So its not a normal fluctuation. According to the Postal Services own documentation. Enter that into the record. I now call ms. Speier, youre next but i understand you have yielded to mrs. Lawrence. Thank you so much for your courtesy, and you will be right after mrs. Lawrence. Mrs. Lawrence, welcome. Mrs. Lawrence thank you so much. I just want to say, as were having this dialogue, lets not forget that this is an election year. Were being confronted with voting by mail. And mr. Dejoy, just like we mentioned, there should be a comprehensive plan. We all are in support of postal reform. I sat in those committees with congressman meadows, at that time. It was the leadership why didnt dejoy do his job . And present to us his plan for a comprehensive reform of the Postal Service . I would be glad to have that conversation. But today, were here. And in the midst of the president of the United States continuously attacking the Postal Service and its longstanding ability to service people. So we are doing our job. The president is saying that the Postal Service is not operating. If we have a postmaster general whos not doing his job and has admitted he doesnt understand the post office, and were sitting here today saying we need postal reform, then thats what we are supposed to be doing. I join my colleagues in saying, we will have that conversation any day of the week. So with that being said, recently, millions of americans received a mailer from the United StatesPostal Service urging people to vote by mail. Not surprisingly, mr. Dejoy does what hes done in other situations. He did not consult with the key stakeholders. So he actually mailed a mailer that tells the American People across the country, even though we have different every state has established their own plan that says request your mailin ballot or absentee ballot at least 15 days before election day. Well, we have states, like colorado, who mails everyone an absentee ballot application. We did it here in michigan. So are you saying you have an absentee ballot being mailed to you, now, go call your state and request the ballot, it is confusing. Im going to ask ms. Ravel, given the circumstances surrounded mr. Dejoys actions, and just the conflict that we are seeing, the voter integrity commission, what should we be doing as members of congress to ensure that these actions that we continue to see will not continue to be a form of ofe russian form , as some are calling it . Others are seeing it as a way to interfere in the voting process. Can you give me your educated opinion on whats happening . Yes. Thank you. I was the recipient of one of those. I was confused as to why they were telling me this, because i live in california, where everybody gets a ballot. I think it is so important that if mr. Dejoy is not held , either by this public discussion of is behavior, alleged, unethical behavior, but i believe there is ,ufficient evidence to see that thanat mr. Dejoy, rather acting independently because of his campaignfinance conflicts, will do whatever it takes to appease the person who got him where he is, the president , in particular with regard to the opposition to mailed out. , and hisn ballots attempt to undermine the trust and confidence that people have in our electoral system. We know that when people believe that there is going to be an issue with the electoral process , election process, often election process, often Voter Suppression leads them not to vote. Thank you. The gentleladys time has expired. Thank you, miss lords. Miss lawrence. The chair recognizes the Ranking Member. Just to bring clarification to the point, i would like to ask unanimous consent for two articles, first from the Washington Post. Washingtonom the post, which is the minnesota primary election results, which has mr. Painter registered as a democrat. Thats not true. I did not register as a democrat. May i respond may i respond . As a matter of fact, mr. Painter, do you wish to correct the record . Yes, i do. The chairman of the Minnesota Democratic Party publicly chastised me for refusing to say i was a democrat and used that beat meme to be me in that primary against senator tina smith. I refused to say i was a democrat. We have open primaries. I have the right as an independent to run in the republican primary or the democrat and i would choose to do that in the future if i want to end that is my right in the state of minnesota. I respect that right. I was just clarifying esther grossmans point with these two articles. The second is the article on postal contracts awarded to dejoy run company requested in 2000 by the Postal Service audit 2001 by the Postal Service audit. Trumpse guardian, postal chief asks his brother to the Washington Post article that has been referred to on multiple rise ass on mr. Dejoys a gop fundraiser. Without objection, all of those articles will be entered into the record of this hearing. Now recognizes the gentlelady from california. I too have a number of entries that i would like to make into the record. The fec complaints filed by crew against mr. Dejoy. And also a letter from the project for government oversight. Without objection, those documents should be entered into the record. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Into theso entered record the actual postal customer postcard that i received that has been the topic of conversation here this morning. Colorados that secretary of state attempted to get the postmaster to correct voterstcard for colorado and it was ignored. Beingps mailer was presented only as a recommendation, whatever that means. Without objection and let the record show that chairman also received that postcard in virginia. All right. Let me go to ms. Ravel. As a former fec director, you know the lw very well law very well. You indicated that if in fact employees were coerced and you included in coercion the word implied. If they had a fear of being fired or if they would not be promoted. We do know that there is a human of mr. Es director dejoys former company that has made the statements. Or maybe firm u hat you mean by comply . Mplied. Is that correct . Let me say that the department of justice discussion of this issue made it very clear its implied. Ng, because of the unequal relationship between a boss and employee, that in itself is coercion. Thanks very much. The other thing that is very interesting, if in fact are either provide them a bonus at the end of the year, you get a business Tax Deduction as the employer. Is that not correct . So there is lots of violations going on here, it would appear. Let me move on then to mr. Painter. Were a former white house ethics lawyer, associate counsel to george w. Bush, 30 year republican, now an independent, lets make that clear to everybody. Let me ask you this, mr. Dejoy has retained an interest of anywhere between 30 million and 75 million in the company x. P. O. Logistics. We also know that the postal o. 33e has paid x. P. Annuallyo 45 million since 2014, including for highway route contracts. Records show a surge in revenue. O. Since dejoy took over. The service paid them about 14 million over the past 10 weeks. If you go back to the same period fo time last year, it was only 3. 4 million. Mr. Painter, does that create a conflict of interest . Mr. Painter somebody is making a lot of money. The conflict of interest is created by the fact that the postmaster general has a financial interest in a company that is contracting with the Postal Service. Obviously, if he is making any decisions that have a direct and predictable impact on that company, he violates the criminal conflict of interest statute. Whether that occurred or not, i cannot opine for certain. I could just say that somebody is doing very well. Unitedis illegal for any States Government official to participate in a particular matter that has an effect on their financial interest. I am afraid there is a grave risk that the postmaster general could be doing just that. Thank you. My time has expired. I yield back. You are now recognized. Congresswoman plaskett . We will come back to her. Congressman kahana . Him. Ll come back to ,ongressman raskin representative raskin come already with us raskin, are you with us . Rep. Raskin yes, maam. Thank you for calling this astounding hearing. Postmaster louis dejoy has and 75 30 million million invested in his former company, which is a major private contractor of the u. S. Postal service. Last year, he made somewhere between 1. 5 million in 11 million from xpo. Were george w. U bushs chief white house ethics advisor. Would you have signed off on louis dejoys appointment as postmaster general if you had been in the administration, without his commitment to divest 75 millionlion to dollars that he owns in stock in this private contractor that gets contracts from the Postal Service . Mr. Painter absolutely not. Indeed, governors might have contacted the white house to ask about this type of situation and we would have told them, no way. If someone has a stock in a contractor, they must divest if they want a job with the agency. That was the position of the Bush Administration. That is a rule i did not see violated once. Secretary took office while you work for president bush while he or she was invested in millions of andars in defense contracts working with the department of defense . To painter we are not going nominate that person unless they agree to sell every last penny of the stock. They get a tax benefit for selling it. There is no excuse for not selling the stock. They would not have gotten the job in the Bush Administration. Rep. Raskin mr. Painter, how did this happen . Mr. Painter because the board of governors chose to appoint mr. Dejoy. This was not a president ial appointment, so it did not go through the office of government ethics. They never had a chance to review this. I dont think there is any way the office of government ethics would have signed off on an agency had who has large amounts of stock in a company that is contracting with the agency. It is a nonstarter, but they bypassed that because the board of governors made the decision on their own with their own lawyers looking at it. They, quite frankly, came up with the wrong conclusion. Rep. Raskin some of our colleagues are very angry at you that you are a highranking republican official in a republican administration, you were a republican for 30 years, now an independent. They seem to think that we should set ethics aside and just stand by our political party. Tell me why you think it is important, as someone who has devoted his life to ethics, that we place at the coconduct in Public Office ethical contact in Public Office i had of our Party Allegiance . Mr. Painter it is not about party politics. It is about the integrity that the American People expecting government. We have the right to have a government with agencies run by officials who are free of conflict of interest. We have a right to a post office that is not politicized. I have documented in detail with to myer that is attached testimony the concerns we have about the politicization of the post office. I have to say that when we have to worry about whether we are democrats or republicans when it comes to delivery of the mail, this country is in serious trouble. Why has the u. S. Postal service not released mr. Dejoys at six document ethics document . Mr. Painter the United StatesPostal Service should release all of the ethics documents, all of the communications of mr. Dejoy immediately so this committee can conduct a proper investigation, which is what you are paid to do on this committee. As our representatives, so investigate allegations of corruption and violations of ethics rules and the government. Those documents should be produced to this committee immediately. The office of government ethics has yet to certify mr. Dejoys financial statements. Is that a problem . Is that something that should happen . Yes, that is definitely a problem. And for us to be at this point postmaster,e as this question being unanswered is something unacceptable. The gentlemans time has expired. Thank you, mr. Raskin. Mr. Cooper is recognized for his five minutes. Mr. Cooper thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate this excellent hearing. I would like to urge the chair of the subcommittee and full committee to consider calling as witnesses the 124 employees who whoed for new breed or xpo were encouraged coerced into contributing. The former hr manager of the firm, according to them, they were reimbursed, and even the taxes were paid on their extra compensation, which is a little bit like committing a crime and tying a bow on top of it to present. I think this committee has a special opportunity to find out the truth in this matter and perhaps mr. Dejoy will be completely exonerated. Employees put in aggregate,on, in about 1 million of contributions, this is substantial. Constructive,o be i think the single point of bipartisan consensus here is hr2382s house passed this winter with substantial bipartisanship. That would relieve the post office of this annual 5 billion straitjacket that it is required to wear and has been wearing since 2006. Nos is a requirement that other federal agency, no private firm has to wear a straitjacket of this type. Business always talks about level playing field, no unfair advantages. This is a crippling blow to our post office. One of the witnesses testified earlier that the post office has basically since 2008 been losing money. One of the primary reasons is this annual 5 billion charge that is completely unfair to require of the post office if no other federal agency and no private firm is required to pay this money. Wouldh my friend yield my friend yield . I would be delighted. I could not agree more. One of the sticklers that is preventing comprehensive reform from coming to the floor is this very issue, because it involves andcare, it involves a cost in ultimately was involved signing up the means committee. Thank you for bringing that up. It,o put a finer point on never has the post office been led by more partisan people or people closer to the Current Senate majority leader, mr. Mcconnell. And yet, he is the one who is refusing to even consider this legislation, which, if it passed the house so overwhelmingly and in bipartisan fashion, presumably would have substantial support in the senate. It is a particular irony that mr. Duncan, who is from kentucky and mr. Mcconnells closest unable and mr. Dejoy are to persuade the Senate Majority leader to move that crucial piece of legislation, which could do more to restore the competitiveness of the post office than any other single factor. Another point i think that has come up in this hearing so far xpo possiblynly is overcharging the post office today, it was revealed this that 20by nbc news years ago, new breed, mr. Prior company, was overcharging the post office because somehow he got a nobid contract. The i. G. Under the Bush Administration thought, concluded that the post office was probably being overcharged 53 million. That was 20 years ago. Thin,g an extraordinary to have somebody who has probably overcharged the post million 20 years ago suddenly gets promoted to postmaster general. Wrongdoing,story of even if you disregard the strawman contributions. This is an extraordinary situation, to have the post office led by somebody who has committed probably felonies before and during his tenure as postmaster general. Never has the post office been so poorly led. I think the committee has a lot of work to do. There are ways that we can combine with our republican friends to solve problems, like by relieving the post office of this 5 billion annual obligation. First, we have to make sure that the post office is not being led by criminals. This is a real problem. I think the gentleman from tennessee. Was that a question you are putting to mr. Painter . He would be welcome to opine. You may respond. Concernedr i am very that there is a grave risk that there are ongoing violations. I am very concerned of the reports of conduct, which if true, in connection with contributions, would be illegal straw donations and violations of federal election laws. The chairman ask to introduce into the record to clarify my testimony and the proof of my testimony, an article in the minneapolis star in bitter clash with richard painter. Thats where we are in this country, partisan politics out of control. I am attacked by the party chair in minnesota for running an open party, for refusing to say i am a democrat. And then, i have to come before this committee and have the validity of my testimony challenged by republican members of this committee who dont bother to do research. I am an independent and i am an american and i am disgusted by whats happening in the post office and in other parts of this administration without objection, the article to which you refer will be entered into the record. I must observe, ironically, i hope we dont get back to the point where we start asking witnesses are you now or have you ever been a member of a particular party . But thats a different subject for a different time. For the record, mr. Painter insists he is not a democrat and has entered into the record the conflict with the dfl chairman of minnesota as evidence thereof. We accept that. Thank you, mr. Penner. The chair now recommend painter. Missesir now recognizes Wasserman Schultz for five minutes. [indiscernible] if we could begin ms. Wasserman schultzs time over again. There we go. Thank you. [indiscernible] wait a minute . Did you say you are on your phone . No. You dont want to hear this phone ring in the middle of this hearing. Good afternoon. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate the indulgence in allowing me to waive onto the subcommittee. There really cannot be a more critical time for the postmaster general to cooperate with this committee and in order to ensure that the American People are able to have confidence in the United StatesPostal Service, that it is functioning properly and prepared to meet the demands of the moment. Instead of taking reasonable steps like soliciting and a divisor opinion before implementing operational changes , complying voluntarily with or listening to the needs of local managers, mr. Dejoys alarming lack of transparency and accountability has created more doubt about his motivations every step of the way. This a personal taste of stonewalling earlier this month when i was denied entry to two south florida United StatesPostal Service facilities when i arrived to observe the morning shift. There was no justification for turning away. My office provided advanced notice, well in advance notice to the management. I had usps employees with me to escort me. I post no risk to health or safety. I have toured facilities in the past without being informed of any notice requirement. The key difference from past visits is that we now have a postmaster general who prefers to hide the orders of our lawless president. I want to ask you about the value of transparency in postal operations. Does the usps have the duty to be transparent . Absolutely. A matter obligation as of law to be transparent. Secondly, it seems to me that i cannot understand why you would not be transparent with this committee and with other committees. Just to tell people what is going on and right now, we are in the middle of an election season. The American Public deserves to know that it is going to be able to have a fair and equitable election. And come in order to have that happen, we need a postmaster general who is going to communicate with all of the stakeholders that are interested in making sure that happens and that includes you, madame congresswoman. Thank you. And beyond any statutory obligations to obtain public comments, what are the reputational benefits of the usps being transparent with this committee and the American Public would you say . It is a question of who are your customers . The Postal Service has thousands of stakeholders. The firstclass mailers. The unions and others. And it is important that those people understand what is going on with the Postal Service and understand it on a regular basis. It is even more important now. There should not be a woman that comes up to me and says im going to push my 80yearold mother to vote and we will stand in line. I dont care how long it will take. But im scared that the postal system will not deliver my ballot on election day. That is scary. I tell her you cannot risk that. People are scared. Closer to the president ial election and continue to deal with the pandemic, how concerned are you about the continued reports that sorting machines are not being utilized to the maximum extent even in the face of admitted mr. Dejoy . I listened to the last hearing. I remember you saying that you went into a facility and they were unplugged. Me why can to you not just plug them back in and bring in a technician . And the American Public would feel confident and feel more confident that their right to vote was not being obstructed. And the mail would be less likely to be delayed. Mr. Dejoy said he would not allow local managers to plug those sorting machines back in. Very transparent what is going on here. Thank you for your Previous Service and your answers. The gentlelady is correct. Record, theof postmaster general flat out refused on the record, undergrowth before this full committee to reconnect those sorting machines. The scam i believe i saw you. Are you there . Yes, thank you. [indiscernible] differentlly in two hold one second. You are muted. Can you unmute . We cannot hear you. Im so sorry. Well, well she is clarifying that, i would like to insert into the record statements in support of the hearing from citizens for responsibility of ethics in washington and two recently released reports by alicia graves. Without objection, so ordered. Is prepared to join us she prepared to join us . She is not. For the record, you indicated i serviceat the postal did not necessarily need the Revenue Stabilization of 25 million in the heroes fund. For the record, that 25 billion was a recommendation of, of all people, the postal board of governors. Not a democratic idea. It was by the republican majority unanimously of this board of governors. It recommended the stabilization which is included in the heroes act. Million fored 25 infrastructure in the infrastructure act. We tried to act on those two and put the infrastructure piece in the infrastructure bill. Just for clarification. That request was before the ovid weref hopc released. The context is important to understand. Mr. Plunkett mentioned the 13 billion cash on hand as if somehow that solves our problems. I would play out for the record that the payroll of the Postal Service, every two weeks is 2 billion plus. 13 billion is six payrolls. It is hardly a panacea. The benefits from the surge in packet demand. Just as that appeared unpredictably, it could disappear unpredictably especially as we all hope when the pandemic ends, what happens to that . We dont know. And itot a certain thing is not a longterm and stable solution for the Postal Service which i know my friend from georgia wants to address as well. I just want to put that on the record in terms of context. [indiscernible] if i may clarify . Of course. That westimony agrees support targeted relief for the Postal Service to the extent required. I should point out that we do not always agree with the Postal Service or its board of governors. For a3 billion only comes short amount of time but they are taking in revenue far in excess of expectations. The most recent evidence is that package deliveries runs 40 over normal levels. While i agree there is a need to address longterm challenges faced by the Postal Service, we need to be careful with how we do so. Was there someone else . I would underscore the uncertain nature of relying on packages in the pandemic. The president of the United States has said many things about the Postal Service and one of which is that the problems would go away if we simply tripled or quadrupled the cost of Package Delivery. And as i know mr. Plunkett knows, if we act on that recommendation, we put ourselves out of business for Package Delivery for the Postal Service. We would price ourselves out of the market. And as i know mr. Plunkett knows , pricing by the Postal Service is determined by the Postal Regulatory Commission by law. Not by the white house or jeff bezos. There are not sweetheart deals despite what the president has insisted. Getting the price right and hoping this market surge represents a new plateau is an uncertain thing to base the entire future on and that is why we believe we need to stabilize the Postal Service for a much longer pair your road of time to make sure we get through the pandemic and to make sure that we clarify that all of the resources are there for the Postal Service to guarantee reliability during the election. And that we can buy some time to develop a new Business Model for the 21st century. Has five, everyone legislative days with which to submit additional questions. Mr. Plunkett, there may be some for you from my friend from massachusetts that could not be here. Just to alert you that that may happen. Those questions will be forwarded through to the witnesses through the chair. I would ask the witnesses to be as speedy as they can in providing responses. And with that, this hearing is adjourned. ]gavel conversations] [indiscernible] journal. s washington every day we are taking your calls live on the air on the news of the day and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. Shirley will join us to discuss campaign 2020. And new yorker magazine writer will talk about a new pbs frontline documentary policing the police 2020. Watch cspans washington journal at the 00 a. M. At 7 00 eastern this morning. Coming up live on tuesday, the u. S. House meets at 9 00 eastern for general speeches. At 10 00 to consider legislation to provide federal grants to improve diversity in Early Childhood education programs. Rubiopan2 at 8 15, marco is interviewed by the Washington Post. Secretary of state pompeo will be at the atlantic council. To discuss challenges posed by china. The Senate Returns at 10 00 to consider a judicial nomination to the u. S. District court in california. Housepan3 at 9 30 a. M. , Republican Leaders discuss their legislative priorities if they won control back of the house. At 10 00, a discussion about whether College Athletes should be played should be paid. And a discussion at 2 00 on algorithms regarding competition. Senate areand both in today as we are joined by bloomberg congressional reporter erik wasson. First on the status of the new Coronavirus Relief legislation, does congress returning do anything to open up negotiations . Caller guest there is a 90 chance they do not get anything done. At the house coming back offers a slim chance. We are hearing from moderate members, like the chairman of the