For leaving the cia in order to help the community in a different way. Im looking forward to staying involved in the intersection of National Security, education, and technology. And to continue talking about technology, whether that is through the media or working with cuttingedge companies that are working on Artificial Intelligence, quantum. It is super exciting. I also dont believe that these positions in congress were designed to be for 30 years. Ive always said that six, seven, or eight years is likely the best thing. I am hitting that time and decided to go off and do other things. You have written a paper for the Bipartisan Policy Center on Artificial Intelligence, cybersecurity, and legislation. Whats the crux of your paper . Rep. Hurd well, its a series of papers and ultimately will turn into legislation. Its a National Strategy on Artificial Intelligence. We have to go back a couple of years. When republicans were in the majority, i was the chairman of the subcommittee on information technology. We looked at privacy, i. T. Procurement, emerging technology. Robin kelly was my partner, a democrat from illinois, in looking at these issues. We decided to have a series of hearings on Artificial Intelligence. This was prompted i am a cochair of the aspen cybersecurity initiative, a coalition of a number of former government officials, current government officials, businesses that are on the cutting edge of all these technologies. That gave me the idea of having these hearings. One of the takeaways from the hearing was that the federal government had a lot of piecemeal things that were happening on a. I. And the Obama Administration and current administration, but there needed to be an overarching strategy. Congress played a role, whether it is in appropriations, in oversight. After those hearings, robin and i were talking, lets work on this. We decided to partner with the Bipartisan Policy Center to have a number of committees with individuals that are involved in Artificial Intelligence from every level. They come up with, how should congress be looking at these issues . How should the federal government be looking at these issues when it comes to National Security, workforce development, ethics, and research as well . Because what we have to remember is, Artificial Intelligence is a tool and its coming. Its going to be disruptive and we are going to have to manage that. We are in a competition. We are in a competition with china. We are in a competition with russia. Vladimir putin famously said, whoever masters ai is going to master the world. Is the future of Artificial Intelligence going to be driven by autocratic countries who dont care about Civil Liberties . Or is it going to be developed ethics that is based in Democratic Values . That was kind of the impetus for this. We rolled out a couple of the papers. We have a few more papers coming out and then we will be introducing legislation as well. Peter lets bring ashley gold into this conversation. Ashley hi, congressman. You brought up china and how the u. S. Needs to be more advanced than china and russia and other adversaries in Artificial Intelligence, for many reasons. Of course, within the news this week is President Trumps desire to either ban the social media app tiktok or arrange a sale, that microsoft would purchase tiktok with the blessing of the committee on Foreign Investment in the United States. What do you think about this . You have spoken a lot about the importance of cybersecurity and Artificial Intelligence. When it comes to these social media apps, do you share the president s concern that tiktok is a National Security concern. Is focusing on social media the right place for this kind of concern . Rep. Hurd sure. I would start with the broader concern is the lack of reciprocity between the United States and china. If a Chinese Company or business excuse me, let me step back. If a u. S. Company or business cant do something in china, then why is that Chinese Company or business being allowed to operate here . There is no question that tiktok is owned by a Chinese Company. What are the broader National Security ramifications of a social media platform . When most people think of National Security, somebody is going to be cracking into the dod or nsa. This is an important conversation to have around Artificial Intelligence because it is data. It is the ability to have volumes and volumes of data, where you can connect faces with names and locations and people being in certain locations. This is how you ultimately train algorithms. Artificial intelligence is based on data and its based on algorithms that make sense of that data and spit out a response. So whoever has the most data is going to win. So, a Chinese Government that doesnt care about Civil Liberties is going to use data however they see fit, and they will always have access to more data, right. So the question around these companies, theres a broader debate that we should be having. If we dont have reciprocity between us and china, there should be consequences. Thats why this review process investments was expanded to look at other projects. I am currently dealing with a wind farm in west texas that is 130,000 acres. That is basically the size of the city of tulsa, and its a wind farm and they are going to connect to the grid. This project is owned by a Chinese Company. Should we allow a Chinese Company to connect into our grid . The head of this Chinese Company is a former general in the Peoples Liberation army of china. General mattis would not be allowed to go to the outside of beijing and buy 130,000 acres and put up a wind farm, right . These are some of the broader questions that we should be having in this type of debate. I would like to see what the review process tiktok has. These are conversations we should be having and it should be putting pressure on the chinese to open up their economy for competition. Ashley so following up on that, are you thinking that if microsoft was able to purchase tiktok and ensure that all the user data of the people in the u. S. Is, based in the u. S. , would that alleviate your fears . That tiktok could keep existing in the u. S. If it had an american buyer . Rep. Hurd i think we would be restricting peoples access to the data and the tools. Some would say, could there be a backdoor in the source code . That would be able to let data go to some server somewhere. You would probably be able to see that, large volumes. Lets say you dont have that. You can have people come in to where that data is stored and just download it and transfer it. There is a whole number of checks that you would want to have if this became a full American Company that did not have financial ties to china. The other thing we have to remember, the Chinese Government passed a law, they called it National Security law, that basically said Chinese Companies have to, they must cooperate with the Chinese Government. You have these kinds of laws, where the Chinese Government is putting pressure on their capital class in order to cooperate with their goals. Its not like getting a National Security letter from the department of justice, because when the department of justice sends a social Media Company a request for information, it has gone through a legal process, a judge has looked at it. Thats not the same process you are having in china. The lack of chinese investments or ownership of a company that has a lot of data on american citizens would lower my Blood Pressure a little bit. Going forward, its probably going to be better, but you would have to look back at previous activities. Peter congressman, do you feel the same way about huawei . Rep. Hurd huawei is a little bit different. Its already banned in the United States. Why does huawei matter . Huawei is basically one of the largest providers of equipment for 5g. Why does 5g matter . We all know 4g, thats what our phones are. It says 4g up in the corner. 5g allows us to its going to be awesome to download the latest movie on my phone and i can download a 4k video within three seconds. Thats going to be awesome. What 5g allows us to do is improve the latency. Latency means, i do something on my phone, that goes into the cloud and then something responds back. That trip is called latency. 5g is going to allow you to do that within eight nanoseconds. Why is eight nanoseconds important . We think in like six or seven nanoseconds. So we are going to have the entire internet at our fingertips at the speed of thought. What is that going to allow us to do . Its going to further empower Artificial Intelligence tools and apps on her phone. The chineses, huawei specifically, they owns 30 of the worlds market on 5g infrastructure. That means all the data moving over that infrastructure could potentially be captured by the Chinese Government. There is only three other competitors in the world that can compete with huawei. Huawei, there has been a number of reports, International Organizations have found out that the Chinese Government supported huawei in its growth and its development. And so, yes, i dont think huaweis infrastructure should be allowed in the United States of america because now all of the data would be going across some would say you can encrypt that data, but i dont want that infrastructure owned by the Chinese Government. So, thats why this is important. The chinese have made it very clear. This is not former c. I. A. Officer will hurd collecting intelligence on the chinese. The chinese have made it clear that by 2049, they want to surpass the United States of america as the sole superpower in the world. Why 2049 . That is 100 years of communist rule in mainland china. The way they are going to surpass the United States as the sole hegemon of the world is by being a leader in future technology ai, quantum, 5g and thats why they have been stealing intellectual property. Thats why they have been bullying other countries in order to buy their products. Thats why they are trying to be a leader in these technologies. Its a risk, but its complicated because i would say, you know, the economies of the United States and china are more integrated than the economies of the u. S. And russia. There is a level of cooperation that already exists, which is why i go back to my first statement, reciprocity. It should be fair. Everybody should have the same opportunities. And then, let the best entity win. I would say, entrepreneurship and freedom and Free Enterprise any day of the week over authoritarianism. Ashley that brings me to my next question. You talk about the economies of china and the u. S. Being so integrated. That brings me to this idea that, should any Chinese Company be worried that they can no longer do business in the u. S. . Huawei and tiktok are by far not the only Chinese Companies that do business or have a user base in the u. S. Have we reached a point where you simply cant take any risk to have these companies functioning in the u. S. . How do you go forward with that . Rep. Hurd i think you have to start with, what is the National Security implication to the u. S. Economy on that . You start there. We would not have to have that debate if there was free access, right, if American Companies were able to operate in china the way Chinese Companies are able to operate here. I used alibaba, alibaba in the United States is treated like an American Company, but amazon is not treated like a Chinese Company in china. If china would accept that level of competition, we would not be having these conversations here in america. I can say that agriculture is a National Security issue, because having a secure food supply is important for National Security. This is a major debate. This is where some of the conversations need to go, because this is going to impact our way of life. This is going to impact the American Economy. We are in a position where the english and the dollar may not be dominant in the world. It could be the yuan and mandarin. The world can exist with both the United States and china, but the rules should be fair for both sides and open. Thats what i would be pushing. Until that happens, i think there is going to be pressure points in many different industries, many different areas when it comes to that relationship with china. Ashley do you think that President Trumps rhetoric and posture on china has made these conversations easier or more difficult . Rep. Hurd i think the rhetoric has made people realize the impact that china is to our country. I would say the threat of china to our economy is actually a bipartisan issue in washington, d. C. One of the things i learned when i was an undercover officer in the cia would be nice to nice guys and tough to tough guys. If somebody is not playing by the rules, guess what . There need to be consequences for that. I think the tariff war at the beginning of this term was unnecessary and had longterm impacts on the American Economy. Because once you have changed Global Supply chains, those Global Supply chains arent going to pop back. If countries were able to buy sorghum from brazil rather than the United States and now those tariffs are gone, they are still going to keep buying sorghum from brazil. Like with a lot of things, i agree with some, disagree with others. But, china is definitely a global threat and a threat to our economy. I want to make sure the American Economy stays the most important coming. The other thing we should be doing is figuring out how we can be bringing Global Supply chains to our friendlier nations. The passage of nafta 2. 0 or usmca, we should be looking at how do we strengthen north american supply chains in order to compete with china. Why arent we doing more in Central America in order to move some of those things away from china and compete with them economically . One of the things that matters in the way we are going to deal with this is to increase our cooperation with allies and have more allies. Thats why engagement with other countries is important. Peter congressman hurd, could you talk about Artificial Intelligence as a National Defense issue . Rep. Hurd sure. So, the future of cybersecurity, right. Defending Digital Infrastructure from attackers is going to be all about ai. Its going to be about good ai versus bad ai. How are we going to be using information to protect us in the future . When it comes to the global war on terrorism and the amount of video that we have of bad guys, if we wanted to review all the video that we have of potential terrorists in conflict zones specifically, it would require like two million more analysts. We are not going to be able to hire that many analysts. We need to have these tools to help us in order to defend our borders. It could also make sure that we are not putting our men and women in the military in harms way. Imagine the ability to send a drone into a conflict region or instead of going house to house to find enemy combatants, you are able to have a drone do that and process the information in realtime. Artificial intelligence is going to enable that kind of activity. So, thats important. I can even make the case that if you have a more efficient government, that helps us when it comes to National Security. How are we using ai to understand waste, fraud and abuse within our various systems . Ai is going to help us in things like agriculture, as i said, food supply, secure and stable food supply is a National Security issue. We are going to be able to grow more crops on less land with less water, with less energy. These are all things that we should be doing. But, we are going to have to make sure that these algorithms are following along. Thats why ethics is such an important part of this issue. We have rules against discrimination already on the books. You cant have these algorithms demonstrate bias or discrimination as well. When should you use Artificial Intelligence . Should a robot be able to kill a robot on the battlefield . Should a robot be able to kill a human . These are some of the ethical conversations that come up and these are the kind of conversations that we need to be having. Ashley you are talking about competition and using ai for defense. That makes me think of the Big Technology companies. The fact that they are under antitrust scrutiny in d. C. A lot of employees rebel against the fact that they would take contracts with the dod, the military. What do you think of that employee unrest . That a company like google should not be working with the dod and companies have to toe a line of wanting to have a Good Relationship with the military but also listening to the concerns of their employees . Rep. Hurd we are not going to be able to win this conflict without a partnership between the private and public sector. That level of cooperation needs to happen. I came out and was unbelievably disappointed in the project maven debacle with google. Because i think this is a level of cooperation that needs to happen and is important. And why the decisions were made within the company to do that, i still dont know what that is or why that was. There are other companies that are working with us. We should always be looking at regulations and evaluating whether there is monopolistic competition or lack thereof, but we should be thinking about, how do we increase competition and not disassemble great American Companies that we are going to be needing in this battle that we have with the Chinese Government . If the u. S. , if the federal government thinks they can do this by themselves, the private sector think they can do this by themselves, its the equivalent of the french thinking the line is going to defend them from the germans. This is competition that needs to happen. By the way, what we need is, we need more people in congress, whether its elected officials or staff, that understand these technologies and can better appreciate how you can ultimately regulate them. I think we all laughed at many of the hearings that have happened about, people like, what is the cloud . Is this thing on . We need folks that understand these technologies so we know how to take advantage of them before they take advantage of us. Ashley congressman, so you said you are in support of looking into whether there is monopolistic behavior. In general, what do you think about the house judiciarys investigation, the doj, ftc, and state attorneys general investigation . Are they focusing on the right things . Do think competition is a problem among u. S. Tech companies . Rep. Hurd i cant say i have a detailed, nuanced understanding of these individual investigations and the nuance there. But i think one of the conversations we should have is, how are we creating an environment to increase competition . I dont know if those entities are focused on that. How are we making sure and again, this is not within judiciary or dojs behavior but how do we produce more American Students that are conversant in ai and quantum . How do we improve that workforce so we have a talented pool of people that can then be drawn upon in order to be competitors . So my tactic would be, how do you create an environment to increase competition . Again, what the focus of those investigations are, i havent been briefed on the latest status from the. M. Peter congressman hurd, you have talked about the need for a more holistic approach when it comes to cybersecurity. And knowing some of the bad actors in this arena, where does Election Security fit into this . Rep. Hurd sure. Look, Election Security is something that ive been following prior to the 2016 election. I held the first hearing about russian involvement in our elections prior to that election actually completing. The russians were trying to influence our elections. They were trying to sow dissent. The steps that were taken since then to defend the Digital Infrastructure of vote counting machines, the amount of money that has been given to secretaries of states. Secretaries of states focus on making sure the right kinds of machines are there in order to be audited. There is about 100,000 different election divisions. Hardening that infrastructure is something that folks have been focused on for four years. In 2018, we did not see any anomalies. The broader concern is this issue of disinformation. That is foreign actors sharing information that is patently false and trying to increase an outcome. Every intel agency has been focused on this. The social Media Companies where a lot of these disinformation payloads or propaganda has been propagated have been cooperative. One of things that i would like to see and how you change this behavior is, when twitter or facebook takes down an account because it was seen as being involved in issuing disinformation, other users are not notified. If we got to a point where you are notified you were following a russian troll that spreads misinformation, maybe that changes behavior. When i was in the cybersecurity industry, and one of the things you can do to protect yourselves from Cyber Attacks is dont click on links from emails that you dont know where the email came from. We would send out a test and people would still click on them. We would go talk to individuals and say, you clicked on that link. That changed their behavior. May be seeing that in some of the social Media Companies, you shared a tweet from somebody, maybe that may change folks behavior. When we were kids, we learned, dont get into a car with a stranger. Asteriskve to bput an on that unless its uber or lyft. Why are sharing information with people that we dont know anything about . This broader disinformation issue is something that is impacting across the world and is a broader concern. Peter we have time for a 30second question and a 30second answer. Rep. Hurd copy. Ashley what is your greatest accomplishment in congress and is there anything that youre are hoping to do before you leave . Rep. Hurd i will take that last one. I am hoping to get this National Strategy on ai across the finish line. I am proud of my efforts to make our country a stronger place, whether thats defending being able to better defend Digital Infrastructure or making sure that we are creating the next cyber workforce. These are the big pieces of legislation that i was able to be involved in and i am glad i was able to. Peter congressman will hurd, republican from texas, joining us from san antonio. Ashley gold, of axios in washington, d. C. , thank you for being on the communicators. Ashley thank you. You are watching cspan. Created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. This is President Trump and other state of local officials looking over storm damage in lake charles, louisiana, where hurricane laura came ashore thursday morning. The storm was the most powerful ever to make landfall in the state and thousands remain without power in the area. [indistinct conversations] [sounds of chainsaws] later, the president moved on orange county, texas, about 30 miles from lake charles and met with officials, including Governor Greg Abbott and senator marco rubio. The president took them questions from reporters after the briefing. President trump thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate you being here. We love this state. It has been a great state for me and it has been a great state for everyone in this room and i can we are here to help. Im here with governor greg