Transcripts For CSPAN The Contenders Henry Clay 20240712

This man, unsuccessful in his long quest for the white house, yet having an outsized influence on American History. We are in henry clays parlor. Let me introduce you to jim klotter, 25 years now as kentucky state historian. Thanks for being with us. Glad to be here. Why henry clay . Why is he relevant to americans living in our time . I think a couple of counts. First of all, his famous comment, i would rather be right than be president , still speaks to us. Its a clarion call to people doing. Whether were in politics or Something Else, to do the right things. He also said, you know, that in a sense, that the politicians need to remember the country and sacrifice for the country. I think that is still something we need to remember, as well. The man known as the great compromiser. A man that forged compromises that not only kept the nation together, but were constructive. Those kind of things i think are the things we need to remember about henry clay, as well as all the things that he did in his life. Again, a clarion call over and over to us, to say to us again and again that we can do a lot of things if we just do and try, as a selfmade man did, henry clay. Were going to try to fit 49 years of rich political history time of American History into our program tonight. Lets start with basics of his biography, where and when was he born, and how did he get to kentucky . He was born in 1777, the seventh child. His father died very young. Clays mother remarried to a younger man. But clay liked to think of himself as a selfmade man, a mill man, carrying corn to the mill, working to the bone. Came from poor ranks, but he came from a welltodo family. They had slaves. They were not that bad off. It was part of the persona that clay personified himself. From there, his family basically came to kentucky, leaving him in virginia when he was 14 years old to be on his own. From there, he was back in kentucky, when he was 20 years old as a young lawyer, married well. The easiest way to get rich is to marry well, and he did that. This is an example of what he did with his start and with his promise. And he made himself into somebody that all americans knew. Whom did he marry . Lecretia clay, lecretia hartclay. She was from an early family in kentucky. She has family in kentucky, also gave him entry into the political circles that would have been defied him. Night him. She brought with that marriage denied him. She brought with that marriage some money and they basically had the connections, because her family knew a lot of people and he used those connections to move forward, but once he got his foot in the door, that he could open the door himself through his own skills and abilities. If henry clay were through time travel standing here today, what would we see . What did he look like . What did he sound like . Clay would have i dont think anybody would sit down with henry clay and not leave without liking henry clay. He was a man not a handsome man, everybody says he was ugly. They always commented about his large mouth. They said his mouth was so large that he couldnt spit properly. He was a man who liked the ladies, as they said, and somebody at the time said he could kiss them out of one side of his mouth while he was resting out of the other side of his mouth. But as soon as he opened that mouth, a great oratory came out. He could charm you. He had that charisma that if there was a person of the opposite party that one time came to henry clays home and to a party that clay was doing and it was a room filled with people, a room bigger than this and the man said to this man from the other party, he said wouldnt you like to meet the famous mr. Clay . And this democrat said about the whig clay no, sir, no, sir, i do not choose to subject myself to the spell of his fascination. Because he knew that henry clay would suck him into his orbit if he just met henry clay because he had that personality, that charisma, that charm that anybody who met him would like him one on one. Was this a genetic gift or did he school himself to be an orator . Did he have a mentor . Where did he get this from . He worked at it. He heard Patrick Henry speak in virginia, and he was just amazed by the force of henrys oratory and he wanted to be like that. He worked at it. He talks about giving speeches to the cows in the field as practice. And he came to kentucky as a lawyer, you almost had to convince your juries through the force of your words, not necessarily the law itself, so he developed it. But he was almost a selfmade orator, too, because over time he could turn on a minute and speak on the issue. He was impossible to challenge clay in a debate, because he would get out on the spur of the moment and come up with the facts and figures and win the argument. John c. Calhoun once prepared a talk for two weeks, and clay got up and demolished it instantly. Thats the kind of man clay was. And had he been able to appear on television, he could have really been a very effective politician. Of course, at that time, you didnt campaign for president , there was no radio, so you had to that force of the oratory was lessened, and only in congress would he have the full force of that. When weve been talking with historians and people here at ashland about him, they keep telling us he was the equivalent of a rock star in his time. Everybody in the country knew him. Now, in a country without mass communication, how was it possible for everybody to know who henry clay was . Politics was the sport of that time. It was the game that everybody followed. There were no organized sports as we know it, things like that. There wasnt any musical things except in the church so the politics and oratory, everybody wanted to follow that as closely as they could and the speeches of a clay or webster, young boys in school and girls would write these down and would practice them over and over again. Because they wanted to be like a henry clay. But he was like a rock star. He would be followed by adoring people. He would go into towns, and theres an example of 100,000 people turning out to hear him speak in dayton, ohio, he had children named for him, steamboats named for him, everything named for him. He was a man people wanted to see to savor the excellence of henry clay. Politicians still talk about henry clay today. Lets listen into kentuckys senior senator, mitch mcconnell, referencing henry clay. Henry clay was the greatest statesman that my home state ever produced. He served the people as speaker of the Kentucky House of representatives. Speaker of the United States house of representatives, and of course, was one of the greatest senators to walk through the capitol. He was also honored to receive the partys nomination for president three times, in 1824, 1832, and 1844. The essence of legislating in the senate as 100 view points are brought together to create one law, is compromise. Henry clay became known as the great compromiser by forging the compromise that would keep his Precious Union together. Clay did not compromise in the sense of forsaking his principles, rather his skill was to bring together disparate ideas and forge consensus among his colleagues. Thats a skill we could certainly use more of now. During the great debates we just went through this summer, over the debt ceiling and the budget, there was so much talk about compromise in washington, whether or not its a lost art. Talk to us in that context, about henry clay as the great compromiser, and what sort of skills he brought to bear there. Clay, if he wanted something to happen, would work very hard to make it happen. He would sit down with people, he would find out what they wanted, he would go to the other side, see what they would want and try to find some Common Ground somewhere in the middle. Theres a it cost him, though, because as they say about compromisers, theres a sign in the Attorney Generals Office in the 1960s that said blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall catch hell from both sides. And in a sense clay caught that problem from both sides, and it hurt him politically, but at the same time, he felt he had to do this because the nation required it. The nation had been founded on compromise. The constitution is a compromise and the nation did not compromise on these issues. It would tear itself apart. And so, clay had an urgency behind everything he did. He compromised some of his principles for the sake of the union in the 1833 compromise. He gave up his beloved tariff issues for the sake of keeping the union together and not having secessionists break off and fight a war against Andrew Jackson. But at the same time, the greater thing he would not compromise on was the union. He said at one time, if anybody wants to know the key to my heart, the union is the key to my heart. That was the thing he would never compromise on. When were talking about echoes of today, the american system, which is something he promoted, had major component which is include tariffs, you just referenced, spending the money from the tariffs on building american infrastructure, and then also the big debate over a National Bank. Were still discussing how effective these things are in todays economy. What was the country like then, and what was the level of debate over issues such as the tariff and the National Bank . Very philosophical issues that were issues from the very start of the nation. They were still issues when henry clay came around, theyre still issues today. Do we have a strong Central Government or a strong State Government . These are the issues that clay spoke on, he thought a National Government should do things for the nation. The states could not accomplish these, and he spoke out about that, and people spoke against him for that, and it hurt him in a lot of ways politically, as well. But he felt like these roads, these canals, these internal improvements were necessary to tie the country together, otherwise it would fragment into east, west, north, south. His comment was, i know no north, no south, no east, no west. To him it was one country, indivisible, and these would be ways to keep it together. A tariff would protect american industry, he thought and allowed to grow. He didnt say a tariff would be there all the time, but it would help american industry be strong so it could compete against britain and other groups like that. Then a bank of the United States, at a time the United States was being formed, hard money was the only legal currency. The government didnt print paper money, banks did, but they could be weak banks and the money would go away, so clay wanted to make central bank that we would really not have until the Federal Reserve system was set up in the 20th century, and that bank of the United States became very controversial, as well, and hurt him politically when he supported that. He thought all of this was necessary for the good of the nation. Henry clay sounds like a pretty good guy. But he was said to have a lot of enemies. He was also known to have some vices. What were his vices . Talk about the age this was in, those vices became more prominent as he aged. In his youth, he was known as a person who liked to gamble. He said it was a good political tool. He could sit down when he was making a peace treaty with the british in the war of 1812 and sit across from the british and play poker with them and see how much they would like to bluff or how much they would call his bluff, so he saw it as a tool in some ways. He loved to gamble, as a lot of people did. He would lose huge amounts of money one night, win them back the next night. His wife, lucretia, when somebody chided her about her husband being a man who liked to gamble so much, she said, oh, i dont know, he usually wins. He did win a lot. But he liked the spirit of the gamble, but as he got older, he didnt do that as much. He liked to drink as most americans did at that time, at a time when water was not safe to drink. He preferred wine, but never got drunk. He enjoyed it. All those things were used against him by the moral side of america that thought that clay was a womanizer, a blasphemer, a duellist, and a drinker. So those would be used against him over and over again at different times in his life. It was much exaggerated. It became part of the stereotype of henry clay. Clay died in 1852, so the 50year career were talking about spans the first half of the 19th century in america, a great year many years full of formation of the nation, and also sectionalism, and the fights over slavery. We have so much to talk about, and during this program, we will be opening up our phone lines for your participation. Ill give you the phone numbers now, if you want to get in the queue. It will be a little bit of time before we get to calls, but if youre interested and anxious to do so, you can get in line. If you live in mountain or pacific time zones, the number is 2027370002. Eastern time zone, 2027370001. We welcome your questions, your comment, it makes the discussion richer. We want to also listen to the views of kentuckys junior senator, rand paul, about henry clay. Henry clays life is at best a mixed message. His compromises were over slavery. One could argue he rose above sectional strife to keep the union together, to preserve the union, but one could argue he was morally wrong and that his decisions on slavery, to extend slavery, were decisions that may have even ultimately invited the war that came, that his compromises meant that during the 50 years of his legislative career, he not only accepted slavery, but he accepted the slave trade. In the name of compromise, henry clay was by most accounts not a cruel master, but he was a master nonetheless of 48 slaves, most of which he did not free during his lifetime, and some of which he only freed belatedly 28 years after his death. He supported the fugitive slave law throughout his career. He compromised on the extension of slavery. When he was the speaker of the house, there was a vote on extending slavery into arkansas and the vote was 8888. He came down extraordinarily from the speakers chair to vote in favor of extending slavery into arkansas. Before we eulogize henry clay, we should acknowledge and appreciate the contrast with contemporaries who refused to compromise. William lloyd garrison toiled at a small abolitionist press for 30 years, refusing to compromise with clay, with clays desire to send the slaves back to africa. Garrison was beaten, chased by mobs, and imprisoned for his principled stand. Frederick douglass travelled the country at the time. He was a free black man, but he traveled at great personal risk throughout the countryside, and he proved ultimately that he was the living, breathing example that intellect and leadership could come from a recently freed slave. And we are back, and we are with another guest. Id like to introduce a history professor from the university of louisville, and welcome to our discussion of henry clay. Before we get into the area which you have spent a lot of your scholarship, which is slavery at that time period and henry clay, talk about the general sense of your impression of henry clay and his legacy. What are your views of this man . I think the image of him as a max and popular candidate, political figure, is very impressive. He is a lightning rod. He seems to get people fired up for or against them. He has the ability to inspire, and even on the abolitionist issues, he takes more heat than people, senators who are actually more john c. Calhoun, for instance. Clay is probably a lot more talked about, written about, focused upon than some of the more prominent political figures. We have spent time talking about his basics and havent delved into his position about slavery. Explain what his philosophical positions were about slavery. Philosophically, he was against the idea of slavery. For his time period, he would have been considered extremely liberal, and for a long time he was touted as an abolitionist, emancipationist. He did not believe in slavery, but he also didnt think africanamericans could survive in america as citizens, so the whole idea of the american Colonization Society, freedom outside the United States sort of became his platform that he stuck to throughout his presidency, although he never im sorry, im making him president , throughout his political career. He never did deny the fact that he felt africanamericans should have their freedom. He was just not willing to risk he knew the political damage antislavery could do to his political career and to the country. He was a slaveholder, correct . He was a slaveholder and an antislavery man, and that caused him great grief all his life, because in the north he would be criticized as a slaveholder, in the south he was criticized for his antislavery views, and had he taken one side or the other, he might have been much better off as a politician. As Abraham Lincoln in the north did, got elected president with all the northern votes, but no southern votes. And had clay done that, had he freed his slaves it may have helped him as a politician. And the fact that he wasnt willing to do it and the fact he was stuck to his emancipation ideas despite the criticism. So, that says a lot. What do we know about the number of slaves he held here at ashland and how he treated them . He is recorded, at the height, of having 35. I think when he dies, he still is holding slaves. He emancipates some, those that he the most famous case is charlotte, who is his servant in washington, who doesnt want to return to kentucky when he wants to come back, and who stays. She takes him to court and loses. He also gets credit for freeing charles and the other slaves on the estate, but in the long run he buys slaves, too. He spends time at the market here in lexington purchasing slaves and is known for the quality of slaves that he purchases, so, again, hes one of those people thats dual nature. Its one of those things that people used to talk about slavery in kentucky being the mildest, but it didnt matter. It was still slavery, and abolitionists came to kentucky and said, people say slavery here is the mildest, theres still enough here to cause the very heart to sicken. And thats what slavery was. As somebody said, they heard the lash on the back and heard the screams of the slave and that was the death knell of liberty and that was a part of clay he could never see or pick up on as much as the other parts of his life. I want to spend a minute more on this american Colonization Society. I read at its first meeting, some pretty famous american names around the table, Andrew Jackson, his nemesis, Daniel Webster, james monroe, Francis Scott key, who wrote the star spangled banner. How popular was the american Colonization Movement in this country . Well, it was extremely popular, and clay is considered one of the major, if not the founder of he gets federal funding for it to buy the land in liberia for the resettlement, he promotes the idea of resettling africanamericans in haiti and canada. He is known for this, this is what he becomes the lightning rod in the Free Black Community in the north, because this is what causes them to unite against henry clay in the sense that, why should we have have to leave the United States . Its popular in the white community, not popular in the south. Liberia was a death trap, and the people in america that had been slaves or were slaves, their forefathers had been here longer than a lot of white people, their owners, so they were more american in a sense, why would we go back . Why should we leave our home . No connections to africa whatsoever, and the fact that clay was trying to remove primarily free blacks, the Colonization Society represented removal of free blacks from the country, not slaves. That was another controversial part. Were going to introduce the third person to our discussion. Ashland is open for tours and interprets the life of henry clay, and we have a special guest, avery malone, who is the director of tour operations here. And avery, before you take our viewers on a tour of the first part, lets get a little bit of sense of place. Ashland today is in what part of lexington . We are within the ring called new circle road. Were about a mile and a half from downtown and about a mile and a half from new circle road so were on the southeast edge of town in a beautiful residential area of lexington. And how many acres does the house have today and how many did henry clay have at his zenith . Today, we sit on about 17 acres here at ashland. We had the contract for the first 125 acres that he purchased. At its height, the farm was about 670 acres. We should learn more about his family before we go on tour here, as well. He and his wife had how many children altogether . And did they all live here . They had 11 children, however, they did not all live here at the same time. There was a lot of tragedy in the family. All six of henry and lucretias daughters would die, only two made it into early adulthood, and one of the sons died as well during henry and lucretias lifetime, so there was a fair bit of tragedy here. Now the house interprets henry clay at what period in his life . The house would interpret henry clay throughout his lifetime. We mentioned when he was born and show a picture of his birthplace and go until his death in 1862. So we talk about his span of his life, his family and political career, as well as his farming and legal career. What were going to see now is what visitors to ashland would see as they tour the first floor of the estate, so take us on a bit of a tour if you would. We are in the foyer right now. This is where the clay family would have welcomed their guests and the clay family established a long legacy of welcoming guests here at ashland. We have next the drawing room, where the family entertained their guests. This is where were filming tonight. Many of the clays important guests would have come to this room. It was the most formal room in the house, and we also have the dining room, where you can see lucretias Ice Cream Service set on the table. The orangeandwhite China Service was given to her by her sister, and it was a gift purchased in france, and lucretia was particularly known for her strawberry ice cream. Id like to take you next into the study, and in the original house, this room was used by henry clay like a home office for his three careers. Henry, of course, was a farmer, a lawyer, and a statesman. I would like to draw attention to henry clays portfolio and document box. Currently, we have the portfolio on loan to us from the supreme court, and henry clay would have used these items when he went to washington, d. C. We also have a pair of stirrups that say h. Clay, and as a farmer, henry clay believed in breeding the best to the best and because of this philosophy, 11 Kentucky Derby winners can draw their bloodlines back here to ashland. Next, we have the library. Henry clay began his legal career in 1797. We have his law license up here on the wall, and this was issued in 1797 in virginia. Henry clay would turn to his legal career throughout his life as a source of revenue or income and his legal career and his great oratory really helped define who he was. Well, we will be back with you throughout the program. You will be available to answer some of our viewer questions and take us on a tour of the other places in the house, avery malone, so thank you very much for this view of ashland in henry clays period. Who were some of the famous people he may have hosted here . Several president s came here. William Henry Harrison met with clay here, Martin Van Buren came here two years before they thought theyd be running against each other in 1844, and he stayed four or five days. Its a question, really, did they talk about trying to make the texas issue go away . They both issued letters later on saying they opposed the annexation of texas, which became a fierce issue of that campaign. Did they meet in rooms like this and talk over that . We dont know. Basically, a lot of famous people, including lafayette and others, have been through this area, and those people wanted to see henry clay, all the foreign visitors who came to america wanted to come to lexington, the athens of the west, the Cultural Center of the west, because it was also the Political Center of the west with henry clay here. Well mix in our first viewer phone call from brian in springfield, illinois. Welcome to our conversation about henry clay. Caller good evening. I want to thank cspan for this series, its a great idea. Im calling from springfield, illinois with a nonlincoln themed question. I wanted to ask the panel about 1824 and the corrupt bargain charge against henry clay, when he backed John Quincy Adams against jackson and accepted the secretary of state position. Do you think thats the reason why were referring to henry clay as contender instead of president . The 1824 election. That was used against henry clay the rest of his life, and it was one of his Major Political mistakes. There were four people in that race, the constitution says the top three vote getters if theres not a majority will go to the house of representatives where each state will have one vote. Henry clay ended up number four on that list. He probably should have been on the list, because if hed gotten in as speaker of the house, he would have been able to use his vast popularity to win the president by one on one campaigning in the house of representatives, but he didnt, so he became the president maker, not the president. Jackson, he called them year general. He feared america would elect these generals and they would become a dictator like napoleon had. Clay really went to washington to support adams. It might have been his best compromise. Did. The offer. That was a steppingstone to the presidency. He could not turn it down. It was used against him as a corrupt bargain. Andrew jackson what is nemesis. May lead to clear out what he considered a threat. Issue of british support living in florida along with native americans rating american raiding territories. He was hostile towards any idea of freedom. Scott,phone call is from watching us from boston. School into high eastport, maine. Very close to canada. Henry clay had insisted, after he insisted that the island be returned to the u. S. Wondering why they were so adamant. I do not know the specifics. I know that clay took the strongest position of all of the delegate. Adams was afraid they would not get a treaty if they took such a position. Clay tried to get everything he could. We talked before we got antipathy and antagonism towards the british. What can tell us about that . Britishought that the were still trying to hold on and punish america. He definitely wanted a war with england. Could stillmerica beat england. Wondered if it had something to do with the british asking africanamericans to fight against americans during the war of 1812. , if that could have any part of it. Apparently his fathers grave had just been dug. Apparently some british soldiers came into the household and they were trying to raise the household. They thought there might be goods hidden in the dug graves. He had antipathy towards the british very early. He said the kentucky militia alone could capture canada. He stayed over there several months and met all of the british important people. There was a much different view of the british. He still feared them and thought they would bully america. A prince,ught of as he was associated with royalty so much. Lets talk about the 1832 election. We are talking about 1832. In 1832, it was probably one of those elections that clay couldnt win. In 1832, clay also faced the fact that there was a third party out there that would take most of the vote from the whig party. South, particularly. Fact clay also faced the that there was a third party out there that would take most of the vote from the whig party. The whole issue of masonry that we still here today with movies about it. Masonsought that the should be done away with. Clay was a mason and Andrew Jackson was a mason. This thirdparty took votes away from them. Jackson was popular. Then the bank issue came up. Clay thought it was going to be a very popular issue. That people would go to him and this is the right to do, but he did not realize that the veto message was a great political message because it made andrew jack speak for the people and against this corporate monopoly. Levels. T on several got 219 electn world votes. Quest we have a lot more details and video that you will be seeing during our live action. It is at cspan. Org the contenders if you are wanting to learn or history along with us. Lets return to the tors operator up the Tour Operator director. Quest he can see the bed behind me. Bed. Is henry clays 1830s we have a letter way he said how comfortable this that was bed was. We even have his duelling pistols purchased in 1799. Later, they were altered a bit. We believe that they went to war in mexico with his son. Henry was in two duels, one with Humphrey Marshall and one with John Randolph. The duel with John Randolph takes us back to when he was speaker of the house. When henry was chosen as speaker of the house, he was chosen partially because they thought he could meet John Randolph on the floor or on the field. It happened that they met on the field. John randolph compared henry clay to a character in the novel tom jones and called him a card cheat on the senate floor. Henry was not there to defend himself and thought no man would have to endure this insult to his honor. He challenged randolph to a duel. Unfortunately for henry clay, randolph was a great shot with pistols and clay was not, but randolph decided he did not want to deprive lucretia or the nation of henry clay and decided to shoot at the ground. Fortunately, no one was seriously injured in either of henry clays duels. How long was dueling part of american political life . Duelling goes back to the 1860s. Henry clay knew he was not a great shot. Why did he get involved in it . It was honor, the whole issue. He had a real sense of honor. Sometimes it got so bad that the only way to defend it was to challenge someone. It would be used against him as well. Dolph was particularly randolph of roanoke, a man who was very eccentric. Applied to other bothe as well, but he shines and stinks. That is a great vision. Randolph disliked clay for a lot of the things that he did, but clay had the ability to do things. Randolph was a dying man. Our next telephone call is from david. Thank you. One quick comment. Anybody who thinks that todays politics are overly divided should really take a look at political verbiage, but then the question is this. It a bit ironic that evolvedblican party has from a party on the basis of public works and federal investment and local projects, into one that opposes all of that . Hello, david. Thecally, it evolved into publican party. Abraham lincoln had been a whig. Party, theay Democratic Party has a lot of. He factions innocence, henry clay lives on in both parties. Certainly, you mentioned the 1830s. You have the rise of the new england antislavery society. He does develop some democratic ideals. The idea of a gag rule in congress, which many wanted. She definitely overrules that idea. Even though he does not support it. Before we get too far into the 1830s, we have not spent time on one of the great compromises that he is known for. When you talk about the Politics Around that . 1820. Maine was about to enter at the same time. One is a slave and one is free. Slavery isuestion of like a farm bill in the night. On the slavery question arises, it smolders like a fire. They bring it to the forefront and there are debate. On. Ould go attempts to limit it completely. Clay is not really the man who makes the first compromise. It came from other people. It is not really his compromise. It seems like it is done. The u. S. Says they can go anywhere. This is a compromise. Clay worked at a convoluted action to that. Hopes that time, he slavery will not be an issue. He can never come up with a solution. If it is a wound, it is selfinflicted. That makes it difficult for him. People believe he is in emancipationist. He is hated by the north and south. It is a no win situation for him. We are halfway through the life and times of the contender. And a great effect on the direction and future of his country. We will take a short break and we will be back. Back to ashland, the home of henry clay in lexington, kentucky. A place that has been preserved and is open for tourists. We hope you will be inspired to come down and visit them. Let me introduce you to our guests. A professor of history here. Tell us about your college. At the a faster university of louisville. Atyou were colleagues georgetown . And where is georgetown, kentucky . The next county. They are pretty close. Christ did you debate a lot . We did. Scholar. Initely the what does the job entail . To me, it involves writing the history of the state. It involves working with people writing about history, offering advice and suggestions, trying to stay out of the way at times. Story of the state of the people that lived there. Avery malone is with us. Would you tell us about how many people come to this place every year, how it is financed and how it operates . We have somewhere around 15,000 year coming to see us. We have financed through a toiety and we are fortunate have all of our visitors and all of the friends who donate to keep us open, for us to tell the public about henry clay. In 1950 for toys. Tours. This was only a couple years after henry clays justgranddaughter died so two years after she passed away. We were only event downstairs and after, we opened up the rest of the house. Shelby, watching us from sacramento, california. I am a greatgrandson of mr. Lauer, who had helped with the antislavery movement. Say that he had when slavestore and needed to be housed, his magical phrase to his neighbors wise, we have some to penny nails in. There was some kind of magical significance to that, so when she had been given a horse as a young lady, she made the horse two penny nails. Country this is and what a terrific thing to have cspan. I am grateful to participate in the series. We do need your question because we have a lot of calls. Info building and city of louisville, kentucky. Please tell us what Association Henry clay might have had with city. Henry clays son lived in louisville and lexington. Money to buyof his a lot of property. He became quite wealthy as a young and. Killedn ended up getting in the war. It was a rival of lexington. Now, the riverboats ofre on the artery transportation. Connection was a mixed one. Call fromone columbus, ohio. You are on. I would like to note really association, i have always been under the impression cassius clay always said that was his slave name. Any association at all . Certainly the name stands out for americans because he was considered an abolitionist and running in antislavery newspaper. I do not inc. There was a real family connection. Some research on that. Named for the abolitionist leader, but his family he came from was from western kentucky. Cassius clay was an abolitionist or antislavery man. They thought that was a good name to take when they had freedom. Henry clay tried once again for his weight party whig party nomination. Harrison turned around and offered a Vice President ial spot . He was offered a cabinet position. Why did he offer him a spot in the cabinet . General. R some position. There was some history of accomplishment, but not a great deal. The whigsme where think that they are going to win. Clay wanted. Henry clay is not a good politician. He is good at congress, but was not a good manager. He trusted his own instincts too much. He was outmaneuvered by people. They got a rule changed in the condition that clay, who had the majority of the vote, now said they would vote by delegation. However the state voted, the whole state voted for that person. That negated clays advantage. Harrison realized that clay was very important in the whig party. That is why he offered clay the positions. He wanted to make peace, not have clay on the opposite side. Clay basically said he would rather stay where he is because he thinks there are more important things to do there and he does not want to be associated with harrison. Our next caller is bill in lexington, kentucky. I am calling from lexington. I am actually a teacher at henry clay high school, right up the street. I would like to ask whether the panelists think henry clays reputation as a compromiser hurt his chances of being president and whether or not his losses as president , a threetime loser, actually made it possible for him to have a greater impact and a more positive one on the country through a long legislative career . I am going to ask all three of our guests to answer that question. Lets start with you, alicestyne turely. It definitely does hurt him. He is unwilling to change his position on texas, so that upsets the southerners. His stand on antislavery upsets new england and the northerners. He is trying to straddle the fence and i think it hurts him more than helped him. Avery malone, the question. Did his years as a compromiser ultimately hurt him in his quest for the presidency . What do you tell people here . I am sure that i know that being a compromiser is not universally popular during the present time when, when someone is taking a position of power. Usually, you want someone to take a strong stance. Emerson said that consistency was the hobgoblin of small minds. Clay was not consistent all of his life. He was at one time opposed and later on he favored. He changed different positions overtime. His enemies used that against him and said he was not consistent. He would compromise as long as he was getting votes. I do not think that was the case. He was willing to make a change and say he had been wrong. That sometimes would cost politicians. It cost him. We had an earlier caller reference the treaty of ghent. We talked about henry clay and the british. What was the treaty of all the treatys . It ended the war of 1812, which americans were not winning at the time. It was worse because they thought the british would still be fighting napoleon. Napoleon was out of the way by the time the deliberations started. America had not negotiated from a place of strength. In a sense, it was the best treaty they could get. They did the best they could. It is one of our best delegations ever, henry clay and three other people of importance. It takes a long time to come about, but given the fact that they did not have a lot to work with, they came out with a very strong treaty. Jackson had won a battle after the treaty had been signed. It was almost like the two things came at the same time that would have won the war, even though the treaty had been signed before the battle had been fought. Avery, can you tell us about the jacket and its significance . It is the jacket that he had been given to negotiate peace. This is very significant in that it is one of the few pieces that belonged to henry clay. It also served as an artifact during the time that kentucky a m was here. They used the jacket as an artifact then as well. A phone call from michael in denver. We grew up in milwaukee, wisconsin. In the 1950s, we went to henry clay elementary school. He has always been a source of fascination for me. I used to come to louisville and lexington on business and i am sorry i did not realize you guys were there. I have a very simple question. This bestselling biography on him, called henry clay, the essential american, is very popular. I am wondering if you have read it and would be a good choice for me to learn about henry clay or do you have Something Else to suggest . Thank you very much. We happen to have that book here. It is one of several books available in the bookstore. They have a number of biographies. What would be the book you would pick up about henry clay . That is the most recent biography. It has a lot of strength. It has the human side of henry clay. It is the newest biography. If you want political emphasis, there is one about 20 years old that is about the same size. But if you want to start with something smaller, there was a book done many years ago that had a chapter on henry clay. That is a good introduction about henry clay. If you want to compare clay and calhoun and webster, the great triumvirate, i read a book in the 1970s called the great triumvirate. Its a good place to start with. And there is a book from the family legacy of henry clay. It comes out next month. It takes place beyond his lifetime to the present. What would you pick up for him or the period . For him, definitely the triumvirate. That brings in Daniel Webster and some of the other important figures of the time. For africanamericans, it puts it in perspective as far as what is going on in the country and what the great debates are about. I have not read the newer version. I am waiting for jims book that is coming out. That will be the next one i will pick up to read. What is the next book . The working title is the the greatdid ted henry clay and the american presidency. I am about to finish writing it early next month. Then i have to go through the publication process. It is about one year away. The current speaker of the house has many of the powers he can look back to the speakership of henry clay. He spoke about henry clay recently. Lets listen to speaker john boehner. Henry clay was the first, what i call, strong speaker of the house the real leader of the house. When our country was founded and the congress was put together, the first speakers over the first 20 years or so came out of the English Parliament system. They were more of a referee. They did not have any real power. But clay was the first real speaker of the house that had some power. There are a lot of things you can say about the role of the speaker. Before he even left kentucky, he said he favored John Quincy Adams for the presidency. It was held at the university. It is quite interesting even. The listed a bipartisan discussion. How did henry clay in hand the power of the speaker . The force of his personality. No one wanted to debate him. The voice to win the argument. That alone had great influence and power. I do not notice any other speaker could compared to. Committee, basically, he understood the speaker had the power to put people he wanted on the committee. He was known to be a fair man and speaker. Overwritten in his rulings. When he knew that there was a certain issue, there was a slight clinician that he wanted the issue to go certain way. The rules changed. Things like that allowed him to be a more important, powerful figure. Next telephone call is from raining. Raymond, we are going to move on. Good evening. Lincoln once referred to clay as his ideal of a statesman. I always believed they had never met, but recently i came across a webpage that reported a book that had been inscribed by clay to lincoln. What is the thinking now . Clay and again ever meet . Do not know, basically. Memoir thateft a them. He person had seen from lexington. Family moved. They contain to kentucky several times. He he certainly heard henry clay speak. Whether they met is unknown. Can you not imagine what a great time it would have been . You have to think they tried to meet, if nothing else. If lincoln had come to ashland, the two of them would sit in the parlor. Clay would Say Something and mr. Lincoln would say, that reminds me of a story. They would go back and forth. But lincoln never said he met clay. I think he would have said that had he met him he did say in 18601864 things to write the inaugural with. Clays effect on Abraham Lincoln was important in the douglas debates. Douglas said his views of henry clay were the views of Abraham Lincoln as well. We are going to take a call and then we must spend some time talking about the 1844 election. Lets listen to a question from charles in whittier, california. Hello. My question is this i am a kentuckian. I was born and raised in kentucky, the home of rosemary clooney. I understand from the panel that henry clay is considered the favorite son of kentucky. Although he and lincoln were members of the whig party, i do not understand how he could be the favorite son and not Abraham Lincoln who, when he met Harriet Beecher stowe, he said you are the little lady who started this great war. She is never mentioned, nor is uncle tom. Neither are mentioned as being great in their time. Yet all the times in which they live and even today, their influence is greatly felt, especially by many africanamericans who are historically informed. Abraham lincoln kentucky he may have started off being a friend of kentucky, but when the emancipation proclamation was issued he became a hated figure in kentucky. Henry clay considered himself a westerner, but many southerners would choose him over Abraham Lincoln, who was certainly considered a traitor to the kentucky cause. You mentioned Harriet Beecher stowe is a popular kentucky figure. We read and study her. Lincoln and that relationship, he is more popular in the north and new england than he ever becomes in the south, particularly at the end of the civil war. Lincoln in 1860 received five votes in his home county. Even his inlaws did not vote for him. He received Something Like 1000 votes in the state of kentucky. To vote for Abraham Lincoln in 1860 in kentucky would be like voting for a communist in the 1950s. Many kentuckians turned against the administration. The state becomes almost confederate by the end of the war. Lincoln and his party are on the outs in kentucky for a long time. It is not until the 20th century that kentucky starts to reclaim Abraham Lincoln. They built a memorial to his birthplace. The Lincoln Commission was commissioned in the 21st century. Kentucky has reclaimed lincoln belatedly, but he was on the wrong side after the war. How far from where we are physically is the birth place . Probably an hour and 15 minute drive on the interstate. In that time period, how long would it have taken . It took longer to go from lexington to franklin. That was a distance of about 25 miles. It took all day. That is why they wanted to build better roads and canals. With federal aid. We had a brief picture of an artifact you have here in the collection, which has an inscription to Abraham Lincoln. Can you tell us what we are looking at . This book is actually called the life and speeches of henry clay. There is an inscription that says to Abraham Lincoln with constant regards to friendship, ashland, h. Clay. 1847. We believe that this book was given to Abraham Lincoln from clay as a gift in exchange for what we believe lincoln would have given as a condolence gift to henry clay after his son was killed in the Mexican American war. We do not know if this was delivered personally. We do not. We do not know if they ever met. There is no documentation to say that they ever had. There is no documentation to say that they had. We do know that henry clay did know Abraham Lincoln. There must have been some kind of relationship based on this artifact. We have a little less than 20 minutes left. In our 90 minutes on henry clay. The first of our 14 contenders in our look at American History. Let us take a call from robin. This is rob from nearby. It is actually robin. I have three questions. I will try to go really fast. Clays contradictions were mentioned. His apparent connection to abolitionists was mentioned. I am curious to know whether he changed his mind or was it merely political posturing . Or a lie. The second question, another caller mentioned the two cassius clays. I am curious whether henry clay or any of his household members or immediate family members had any known slave descendants like jefferson. Politicians often have a political or aristocratic lineage. Is it known if any other prominent politicians share henry clays lineage . Now, im out of your way. Thank you. Before you go are you there . We lost her. She lives so close by, we were wondering if she had been here. Abolitionist a position change or posturing . I think it would be wrong to call henry clay an abolitionist. He was definitely not an abolitionist. He was for the idea of emancipation. He never changed his position on that. As we discussed earlier, especially in the election of 1840, it hurt him. He tries to straddle the fence, but he never backs away from his idea of emancipation. Cassius clay. In 1799, clay spoke out for the first time publicly against slavery in a letter to the local papers. 50 years later he does the same thing again when theyre trying adopt a new constitution trying to get slavery abolished. It did not happen. They took basically the same he took basically the same stance. He was pretty consistent over a 50 year period. Over those 50 years the world change around him, but his views were still the same. How about the two cassius clays . I know of no a question of whether or not there were africanamerican i am not aware of that. Did he have any descendants who were africanamerican . There is one story that appeared 40 years after henry clays death. A woman said she had been a mistress of henry clay. I have found nothing to substantiate that story. There are several henry clays in this area. She could have him mixed up with somebody else. A list has been compiled and i did not see her name there or anywhere. I do not think that happened. Cassius clay, probably not. An offspring showed up at his door one day at the cassius clay home in kentucky. The shock of that caused the wife to divorce henry cassius clay. If anybody had the same connection to clay as far as being related to clay, i am not sure if i know of anybody else. There is no Family Dynasty then . I do not think so. The 1844 election against james polk this time clay was successful in obtaining the whig nomination. Everything ive read about it says it was one of the dirtiest campaigns conducted. What were the issues or was it real personal politics . Or both . Clay went in as a favorite on this for a change. James k. Polk was the first dark horse candidate for presidency. He went in hoping to be Vice President and wound up being the president ial nominee of the democrats. Clay had been organizing his campaign for two years. Campaign biographies were everywhere. There was sheet music with clays picture. There were all kinds of ribbons, buttons, and metals. And medals. The democrats had to attack. They attacked clay heavily on all of the issues. The 1844 election was the perfect storm. He wrote too many letters and said to many things causing him to look like he was waffling on the issue of texas annexation, which was a big issue at the time. All of the issues of preventing gambling and carousing came back ever used against clay. I think it is for a combination of things. I think it is more the combination of things that defeat clay. Polk said we needed to annex texas. Northern abolitionists were opposed to that because they believed it would bring mexican it would bring war with mexico which it does. Clay opposed annexation on a peaceful basis. He went against manifest destiny and the National Mood. I do not think that defeats him. He wins some votes because of his stand on that as well as loses some votes. It is more that there is a whole slew of issues. Issues of fraud, bad luck, and things like that. You hear a lot about this being an early example of politics of personal destruction. Was this from both sides . Was henry clay a practitioner of those kinds of politics . I think he was his own worst enemy. He certainly trusted the wrong people in the 1844 campaign. I think he was his own worst enemy. He does not listen to advisers. This is still a problem for him in 1844. He believes his own press that he is the favorite. The does not see the challenge as serious. He is not really campaigning. He shoots himself in the foot a couple of times. P opposed texas annexation he opposed texas annexation fearing it would lead to war with mexico. His son went to fight in the war against mexico. What happened . He was killed in the war. His son has lost his wife a few years before. He was very depressed. It was almost like he was trying to go off to fight to forget as much as anything else. He is wounded and tells his men to retreat. They do and he is killed. It hits henry clay very hard. Clay makes an antiwar speech. He basically says, i support the troops, but i oppose the war. It is a speech that many people considered a very courageous speech at the time. It went against the National Mood in the south in particular which was one of his constituent areas. Lets take another call. This is from new jersey. Hello. I was wondering if your panelists could talk a little bit about the relationship between John Quincy Adams and henry clay. Thank you. Clay and adams were a very mismatched couple. Adams had a new england, puritan background. If you read his diary he was , critical of everybody, including himself. He is critical. He is a man of great talent. He speaks many foreign languages. He is well versed on the presidency. He was the son of a president. There is a great passage in one of his diaries. Adams is getting up at 4 00 in the morning and clay is getting back from a night of card playing. He said it was wrong. It was the debauchery of henry clay. You could turn it around. Henry clay was a very different type of person. They constantly tweaked each other. They did not like each other in a lot of ways, but they respected each other. When clay makes John Quincy Adams the president of the United States in 1825, he was a very loyal secretary of state. Adams gains more respect for clay and clay gains respect for adams. Everybody expected they would fight and they would break away from each other. They had never been friends, but they were respectful of each other for the rest of their lives. We are reaching back into the earlier part of henry clays career. This is a good time to look at one of ashlands most prized possessions. It is the washington goblet. This is the washington goblet. This was the item of greatest patriotic inspiration in henry clays home. It is chipped and broken. This is how clay received it. He received it from an elderly lady as a gift. It had belonged to George Washington through most of the revolutionary war. He used this like an artifact at his house. He used it to connect to early nationhood and as an object to venerate George Washington. He felt washington, as many throughout the country did, was a great inspiration to our country and hoped to inspire patriotism to people who visited. We are quickly running out of time. Let me ask you about henry clay and his wife. He had such a long political career. He was in washington so frequently. Did the family move to washington, or did they remain behind . His family did go with him to washington early on. The 1830s was the last time lucretia would go with henry clay to washington. She had plenty on the farm to keep her busy. There were children and grandchildren to occupy her time. She was not one to enjoy the limelight. She was not heavy into fashion and attention. She enjoyed the solace ashland provided. In the later part of henry clays life, he was gone as much as he was at home. Some have surmised that henry clay was addicted to travel, which is one thing we would all probably like to do more of. He had gone quite recently to campaign. He worked in washington and on trips, for instance to see his daughter in new orleans. Our next call is from kentucky. This is gerald. Really enjoying the program. My last name is watkins. Henry clay was my seventh cousin. His grandmother, sarah watkins, was sister to my greatgrandfather. I am real proud of henry clay and that connection. My question is the three times he won the nomination, it seems like the timing was really not good for his candidacy. They seemed doomed. Do you believe there was a president ial election during his time of prominence that would have been better timing, that he could have won the presidency . He could have won in 1840 pretty reasonably. In 1848, Zachary Taylor was the whig nominee. Taylor had done nothing in his background other than be a general. Clay very reluctantly tried to get the nomination in 1848 and failed. Had clay gotten that nomination, i think he would have won. The democrats were divided that year. Clay was quoted by someone as saying that the nearest he could get the nomination, his friends were basically deserting him. Clay felt it was a betrayal of all the things he could have done. Let us move ahead to 1850. Henry clays last big effort on public policy. What was the compromise all about . Set the stage for us. 1850, the decision about the expansion of slavery, how slave states come in as free or slave holding, the idea of strengthening the fugitive slave law becomes one of the breaking points. The idea of california. The idea was california could make their own decision about whether or not slaves could be held in the state. Missouri comes in. New mexico and arizona. Now we are truly into the manifest destiny where the United States reaches from coast to coast. For africanamericans, the fugitive slave law becomes a major issue in american politics leading up to the civil war. On the compromise of 1850, henry clay was not successful. He was how did it all turn out . In 1849, he comes back to the senate after his defeat in 1844. Living inn at home the quiet and peace of ashland. He has nothing to gain. He is not going to run for president anymore. He comes out of retirement and hopes to save the country, in his mind, one more time. 1850 was the compromise. In missouri, he broke all the rules. Clay goes off to rhode island and the bill does pass under stephen douglas. Clay thought this would bring peace in his lifetime. He was roundly supported on this. He died two years later. Within a decade of that, the civil war began. Henry clay died in 1862. He is buried where . In lexington at the cemetery. Right nearby. We have a video of his grave site. His funeral was quite the event 1,000 mile train cartage. His trusted servant, charles, is by his side to the very end with the funeral pyre. People came from all over. The trains are coming in. Thousands of people in lexington came for the funeral. It is national news. And the thing about that monument, i think he has more images in the Nations Capital than any other individual. Life magazine said he was one of the most influential americans of all time. I think the best monument to clay is not any of those things. It is the fact that henry clay pulled a divided nation together, the nation is still one nation, at is still one democracy, and is still trying very hard. A very quick call from bowling green, kentucky. Do you have a quick question for us . Why do you suppose henry clay was not interested in a womans perspective on slavery . The reason i ask the question, a europeanvictorian woman had traveled to america to kentucky in 1835. I have to interrupt you. We have very little time. She was sent by britain. That was enough for clay not to like her. He had principles about a woman that were in play. Had women been able to vote, henry clay would have been president. By all the estimates women in , america liked henry clay. Everybody uniformly said that women liked henry clay and would have voted for him. Ook came to ashland. She did not like the children, but she liked henry clay. That was part of the nation and america at this time. Contradictions and controversy in his life. Views on why he uniquely was important to the country . He polarized and made america make a decision on slavery. The 1850 compromise, africanamericans fled to canada. It increased Public Awareness of slavery in america. That was his major contribution, i think. We have just skimmed the surface of the 49year political career of henry clay. Our first of 14 contenders. Men who did not achieve their quest for the presidency, but changed American History. Thank you to our guests. We have a couple of other quick thankyous. The Henry Clay Memorial Foundation for ashland and for sharing it around the country for us tonight. The executive director and the curator outstanding help to our crew in putting the program together. And their colleagues. A personal thank you to the former Board Chairman who traveled all the way to kentucky to be with us. History buffs as they are as we kick off the first of our contender series. Thanks for being with us. Learned more tonight about the life of henry clay. The contenders about the men who ran for the presidency and lost but changed political history. All week at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. On tuesday, the 1884 president ial candidate. Cspan has covered every minute of every Political Convention since 1984 and we are not stopping now. This months Political Conventions will be unlike any in history. With the pandemic still looming, plans for both gatherings are being altered. The democrats will meet to nominate joe biden the week of august 17 and President Trump will accept his partys nomination the following week. At 9 00 p. M. For live coverage of the Democratic Convention starting on monday, august 17 and the republican Convention Starting monday, august 24. Demand atming and on cspan. Org or listen with the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. Negotiations on another Coronavirus Relief bill have stalled between congressional leaders and the white house but the Senate Remains in session this week and in case there is a lastminute agreement. Senators have been told they will have a 24 hour notice. Rich mcconnell and Chuck Schumer spoke about the Current Situation and the executive actions that President Trump took over the weekend to provide Economic Relief to those affected by the pandemic. That this week the senate would be busy providing more coronavirus aid. The chairman and ranking members have been working overtime across the aisle to