Transcripts For CSPAN Aspen Security Forum Discussion With U.N. Ambassador Kelly Craft 20240712

Aspen Institute Security forum. We are privileged to have with us the current Us Ambassador to the United Nations, kelly craft. This is the first time the aspen security form has been able to host the u. S. Ambassador to that u. N. So we are particularly grateful to you for making the time. Kelly craft hails from the great state of kentucky and served as our permanent representative to the United Nations since september of 2019. Before then she was the u. S. Ambassador to canada for two years and during that time, very complex time, she worked on the revisiting of the nafta treaty now known as the u. S. Mexico canada agreement. To interview the ambassador we , have a columnist at Bloomberg Opinion covering National Security and foreign policy. Ambassador craft, we look forward to hearing your views on the Trump Administrations engagement with the United Nations and other international institutions, the critical upcoming vote, possibly extending the iran arms embargo and all your great efforts to restore aid to syria in spite of chinese and russian opposition, over to you, thanks. Eli thank you for doing this. I thought i would start with a question having to deal with the 75th anniversary of the United Nations, an organization that started with a lot of ambition, in part to prevent interstate conflicts but also to promote basic democratic values. When i interviewed your predecessor at the end of 2018, she said the verdict was out whether the United Nations in the United States participation still served the u. S. Interest. I wanted to get your view on this question. What do you think . Has the u. N. Lived up to its founding principles and do you think the organization and us participation in the organization serves american interests . Kelly thank you for that question. If we were not having a monsoon rain i was walk the ipad over so you can see your view of the east river and the compound that i see when i wake up. I cannot imagine looking from my residence and not seeing the un compound and that not being here in new york city and the United States of america and it is important the institution is located in new york, in the United States because it gives the us the opportunity is the host country to be face to face with likeminded countries and countries that we dont see eye to eye with so we can shine a light. Can you imagine the un not been located here or being located in china . My predecessors have all said it is discouraging at times. We are discouraged at times that people dont see the founding principles, but at the same time that is what we are here to do, to promote our Founding Fathers and promote the anniversary. In 1948 weed signed the u. N. Charter. In 1971 china of all countries reaffirmed their commitment to u. N. Harter and the declaration of human rights. U. N. Beingagine the located anywhere, and i was hoping i could build on my predecessor and not necessarily have affection but gained respect and continuing to shine a light on countries that view that abuse the rights of others. Eli following up on that the Trump Administration and before that, there was a long tradition of American Ambassadors being frustrated with you and bureaucracy and seeking reform. Can you talk about the reform agenda and how much you have accomplished in that regard . How do you approach reforming the United Nations . In trumps first address to the United Nations General Assembly he made a big point you cant live up to these principles without reforms. Can you fill us in on what you have been doing . Kelly i go back to my predecessors, the fact that she first acknowledged that there was waste and we need to reform the United Nations, then i go to negroponte who took upon her words and opening the doors to reform and to actually acknowledge the fact that the institutions need a lot of help. We need to institute transparency, accountability, we need to cost out areas where there is a lot of financial waste. We have an obligation to the american taxpayers to not only modernize the secretariat and the u. N. As an institution but to hold them accountable for our dollars in the tax dollars of the contributing countries. We are the largest contributor to the United Nations and it is important to build upon my predecessors and make certain we hold them accountable because accountability only results in actions that are going to initiate positive reinforcement. Bodiesw do you hold u. N. That are answerable to other nations or for that Matter International institutions accountable . What are some of the ways the United States can do that . Kelly first and foremost we have to focus on implementing more americans within the un system, the secretariat, not just americans but likeminded countries. As in unicef when you have americans at the helm of organizations you have accountability, you have transparency and until we are able to place more americans in likeminded countries in the system there is always the question, are they being fully transparent . Our tax dollars being used according to the mandate whether it is a peacekeeping mission or ngos. The that is foremost and we need to pull in Public Private partnerships within the system because i can tell you the private enterprise, private industry, private individuals are going to demand transparency and accountability and we will pull out of organizations where we dont think our funding is being used appropriately as weve shown in the past and will continue, and it is important for all Member States to demand transparency and accountability for their taxpayers as well. Eli this dovetails into my next question, mike pompeo has really had almost a Public Awareness campaign about the Chinese Communist party. A big focus of that has been on the u. N. International organization and trying to compete for the leadership and key personnel in these organizations, in some cases the World Health Organization which trump has pulled out. Can you give us a sense where the campaign is and what in your view, where is room for improvement . Kelly lets go back to 2015 during Donald Trumps campaign. This was one of his platforms, shining a light on china whether it is china stealing from our economy, our intellectual property. It is all about china and this is just a continuation of the president s platform, the secretary every day we are shining a light on the way china is behaving whether it be the who, the United States, the largest contributor of who and that is a mouthpiece for china and why we withdrew from the who. We are working very hard on different organizations during the election cycle to make sure the chinese, that their candidate does not win because the more people we can have in that u. N. System that are either americans or likeminded countries the more transparency and the more we are able to shine a light on china. It is daily they are abusing the rights of others or the units, the you and system, u. N. System, increasing their contribution to manipulate the system, not to lift up other countries with the us as the number one priority at the United Nations. It is to manipulate the system to their own agenda and the general secretary xi in the communist party of china want to bring in their people. We cannot allow this to happen. Every day i am in the council we will be shining a light on china and other countries but also are abusing the rights of others and the system. Eli on that point, there is good public reporting on how china conducts its own diplomacy. They can get very personal and offer bribes, loans and all kinds of things to secure votes for chinese chosen leaders and other things like that. Tell me about how the United States does counter diplomacy. To be play a similar kind of hardball . We do not need to play hardball. Every day we shine a light on china, from washington, from the administration, that is allowing Member States to see china may come in and offer help, but they are also offering ownership. They come in with these shiny projects and there is low return. Africa,the continent of they are becoming clued in to the fact when china comes in they take with them more than they leave. When latin that is what is important about the u. S. , when we arrive in the country, the pacific leave with communities intact, we leave with the building up of communities, of sustainability and that is what we are focused on. We provide action. We are not about lip service. Were doing your diplomacy, i know diplomacy often has to be done discreetly, but walk us through, is that the argument you make . Are those things going to be tangible to countries that choose to vote with the United States . It certainly wouldnt be the first time United States has done this kind of thing. Choose, myway i daily interaction, is building relationships with some of the smaller countries regardless of the fact of their relationship with china. China. Show them action. I have to show interest in their country and their needs and then i will take it to the administration, whether it be to the Development Areas of the administration where we can come in and help build, most important way to a sustainable community. When i first arrived, i took a lot of acknowledgment from george h ws book and how he arrived at the un and reached out to smaller companies, he himself witnessed it as did ambassador negroponte. I did the same thing and until covid19 i was seeing them facetoface. I used it to reach out via text and owned other Member States and just to have a conversation, they need to be listened to, they need to be acknowledged that they matter. The votes come later. When you develop a relationship you dont have to ask for the votes because you have the ground floor. People who are there for a reason. They are diplomats and i want them to understand we respect that and their relationship matters to me. Eli moving on to the middle east, as you know, the u. N. Arms embargo will sunset in regards to iran. It is been a highpriority and i think it will be addressed in the forum later, and i think it is highpriority for a lot of u. S. Allies in the region to make sure the arms embargo remains so at this point do you think you will be able to persuade china and russia not to veto any resolution . It is crucial at any moment. At this point we have a choice between freedom and charity, an obligation to protect the arab countries, to protect israel and the european countries. Russia and china do not want iran to have access to nuclear weapons. We all are aware this is a rogue regime. Look no further than that way they treat their own people. We want to protect the iranian people, people in yemen, syria, libya, lebanon, venezuela. I could go on and on where this regime is going in and only adding fuel to the little fires they have set themselves. It is important that we start this early because this is a crucial issue that will affect the world for generations to come. China and russia have threatened to veto, but they understand there is a choice here and this is a choice they will have to make. They understand we have a talent pool it feels adamantly about their choice of freedom and this is something we have been working on, brian who will be speaking at the Aspen Institute will speak more technically. What i have been doing is reaching out to the Security Council and reemphasizing the importance that there is a choice between freedom and tyranny and this is a choice that will affect millions of people around the world and everyone understands that. Eli to persuade the chinese and russians to change their mind or isolate them on the Security Council, to show that yes, they may have to use the retail but assuming france and the United Kingdom and other members on your side of it, the strategy that you think there is some diplomacy that will get them to exercise the veto or do you just want to isolate them to mark eli kelly lets be realistic. Right now the strategy of working with other members of the Security Council and making certain we really as we did in syria with crossborder issue put them in a corner and shine a light on them. This is a choice and everyone will know this is a choice tyranny and freedom and we will allow the world to see the choice china and russia will make as we did with the crossborder issues in syria. We were adamant about keeping the border issue in syria as we will be about promoting freedom and keeping the rogue regimes in iran from affecting the many countries they already are engaged in and protecting the freedom and security of israel and the arab countries. Eli maybe i am getting it wrong but it seems you are saying or trying to morally almost shame the chinese and russians, if you choose to stand by this blood will be on your hands. But do you think shame work , with chinaussia conducting this campaign of concentration camps . These are great powers that seem to not have many moral considerations. Why do you think shame would work or they would care given their history of voting in the past . Kelly it is important to show the other Member States who also this happens to be a topic that will affect the world. We made it clear to the Security Council and the secretary and the president , their priority in showing the world we are here to protect the freedom of the iranian people, the middle east, israel, and yes, russia and china will be who they are. I will not be able to change their minds. What we can do is change the way other countries look to them and look at them and that is what is important and honestly there is a choice there. My job is to make certain we hold accountable russia and china and that we shine a light on them. If we dont shame them who is going to . Who will stand up to china propaganda, russian propaganda. This is why the American Ambassador is so important system. He u. N. There is more power when we are all together especially in this system. I want to make it clear that this is not my view, but plenty of people would say what standing does the United States under donald trump have these arguments . The United States took out soleimani in a baghdad airport, the United States unilaterally withdrew from the iran nuclear deal, why is the United States lecturing other countries on morality . Im sure you encounter those, but what is your response . Kelly we have an obligation as to usens, an obligation every tool in our toolbox to call out rogue regimes to protect the citizens of these countries, the iranian people, the people in syria from thepeo. Up realize iran is propping the assad regime. They are in iran, libya, lebanon, venezuela, they are the reason for so many atrocities not only to their own people but around the world and with the founding principles at the un, we have an obligation to promote freedom and democracy, peace and security around the world. Eli i agree with that, but how would you respond to people saying the United States has acted unilaterally, with the steps in iraq against soleimani, theres an argument in this country, a show less text think trump is a rogue leader. You respond to that . Kelly my response is this president cares first about the safety and security of the american people. We are on a world stage, we are the leader of the free world. The president ran on this in 2016 calling out rogue regimes rogue regimes. Lingng our own people, the up our economy, our own defense, building america, we can take and makeuilt upon certain we implement this around the world. I do this frequently, there is no one who is a better defend her of democracy and rule of law in the world than donald trump and mike pompeo and i will never apologize for our mannerisms and i tell you now, when the un fails to promote democracy i i will do what it takes to defend democracy. Moving on i want you to , tell me a little about what can the United Nations Security Council can do in regards to venezuela . Can you talk about the role for the u. N. To play in the transition of democracy for venezuela . They as you well know, United States and several other guido andtes support his presidency. Has been theates largest contributor to humanitarian aid in latin american countries. I was just in colombia before covid and saw firsthand the hundreds of thousands of refugees crossing over into latin america, especially into columbia. You have human rights being abused in venezuela. People are traveling, especially into columbia because of obviously the proximity. What we have been able to do is offer humanitarian aid and support to the latin american countries. The four covid, before the migration, this was an issue within their own countries, their health issues, their economy. Then to have this propelled on top of what is already occurring. It is really important we help latin america, that we uncover all the atrocities the maduro iran is engaged in propping up the maduro regime. This is an actor that has no respect for the venezuelan people. Theambassador to the u. N. , u. S. Has to represent the right things to do and that is to call out the maduro regime by guido and his people for free and Fair Elections. We have to really stress the u. N. And the Security Council, the Human Rights Council, any council cannot cover up for the maduro regime. Specificsu have any on how the u. N. Bureaucracy has covered up the maduro regime . Kelly we have brought this up before the Security Council. What more proof do i have that the United States the United Nations system has yet to abide by the original charter . For venezuela, there was a devastating report last month on human rights abuses in venezuela. It was horrific to read. Kelly of all people to come out and write a report addressing human rights abuses in venezuela i cant imagine if other pay heed and read her report, i dont know how that it issay important we continue to uncover this maduro regime. She is someone that was very surprising, as you well know, that came out with this report. We can welcome this all day long in latin america, but we all feel the same. What we have to do is continue calling out, and i will continue trying to call out venezuela in the Security Council. We have to take the likeminded countries that are recognizing the guido regime and continue to lift him up and stress to him the importance of free and Fair Elections and support this and make certain we dont forget the latin american countries under the heavy burden on top of covid19 taking in all the refugees coming in from venezuela. This is a disaster. You have iran, russia, china, cuba, somebody countries lifting them up. That is a good circle of friendship, to think about all the friends they have. They are all rogue regimes and countries the u. S. Is constantly using every tool in our toolbox to stop the abuses by our whatever we have to stop what they are doing to prevent democracy and the rule of law for their people. You mentioned the u. N. Human Rights Council. The United States is not on the Human Rights Council on principle. Is there any hope the u. N. Human Rights Council will at least begin to not allow members that are human rights abusers to serve under it or that this will happen because of the nature of regional voting . Kelly theres a reason we are no longer on their. Could you imagine a council that allowed the democratic republic of congo to be a member . We dont need to be a member of the Human Rights Council. D secretary ontario secretary pompeo every day with the way they treat the uighurs, the way they treat africans, look at hong kong, the way they are treating the tibetans. We will continue without being a member of the Human Rights Council to shine a light on those countries stop if you look at the members of that counsel, why would you want them to be part of a group that is abusing their own people . We have far more effectiveness if we are calling them out outside that counsel so we can shine a light on what is going on with them. We i think now is the time are going to open up the last 15 minutes for questions stop of people want to raise their hands. This will get working. It is little technical. In the interim, i would love to all when you took this job, prior u. S. Ambassadors to the i station United Nations, did you have a relationship with susan rice or cement the power . Can you talk about that . First, nikki the and i spoke first thing and spent several hours. I had lunch with susan rice and she was very open about refugees and areas in africa that she thought i could be helpful because she understands my initiative for publicprivate art or ship in africa on a personal level. Samantha powers, i have not met with her. I have read her book, as i did george h ws, and i have spoken to ambassador negroponte, ambassador kirkpatrick. I tried to take all the positive approaches from my predecessors and build upon those. From their good policy theres nothing wrong with building on good policy, i will leave it stronger and my successors will have a more solid platform. Im very much interested in this situation in the african state. Thats a very private, personal initiative of my own, and it was nice to talk with ambassador rice because she felt the same way. Samantha powers, also with several of her publication, stressed refugees and stress the importance of having relationship with smaller countries. That is something george h w did really well. I tried to take everybodys advice and use a little bit of it to suit my own personality and it has really worked well, so thanks for that question. Eli you had lunch with susan rice . Is she Vice President ial material . Kelly this was last year. I think shes one of the smartest women. She was very helpful to me. You can imagine people walking by us in the restaurant, looking at us at lunch. I walked away with better knowledge on refugees and areas would like to help. That is where my conversation with her was related to the u. N. , what an impact the ambassador has had, to take advantage of the moment and enjoy yourself. Eli that is nice. Kelly i read some of the comments when you interviewed Ambassador Haley and the fact we dont have ambassador bolton it is not a popular the contest here. What it is is making certain that i am privileged to have a peek into the heart of some of the countries we normally would not be able to have that opportunity. With that comes the responsibility. So when i leave here, i will still carry that responsibility to carry the message of the countries that this is their only platform. When i look out on the east river and see this huge compound, these 38 floors, i think about the countries that depend on this compound as their only platform. It is up to us to shine a light on the abuses and make sure we uphold the charter. We are the leader of the free world. We are the largest contributor. We have an obligation to really hit hard, to hit back at countries that do not follow the u. N. Charter. Thank you so much, ambassador craft. We had a lot of people and attendees asking questions. Haveif you are ready, we rory garrett from the council on Foreign Relations . Are you hearing me . Youry go to Understanding Technology problems as soon as you said my name, you log me out of the system. I had to log back entirely into zoom. A quick question. Ambassador craft, tell us what is the Strategic Thinking in the Trump Administration regarding how we will end this pandemic . In particular, how does that go to your role in the Security Council and in relation to the lt lateral system to come up with some shared sense of solution and Strategic Plan . Thanks for that question. I think its important i want to go back to march with the secretary general and his global call for a ceasefire. That has been really important especially during covid because we have to have this ceasefire to safely allow the frontline workers we already have humanitarian aid for existing situations going on in yemen, syria, other places around the world, but the global ceasefire initiated with the secretarygeneral has allowed us at this time to really mitigate process because theres a lot of humanitarian aid that has yet to be delivered because we have situations of conflict on the ground. As far as domestically, the president has been a leader in our country speaking about covid19. A responsibility of each of us to be responsible for ourselves and follow the guidelines and we have a responsibility for those people who are either next to us or in our own homes. I take it as a responsibility upon myself and i stress that saw i was in turkey and i the turkish side with the Syrian Refugees and you look over the border, you can see the difference when you do have a demands people follow guidelines. If you look over in syria can you imagine being a syrian refugee on the syrian side and eating asked to shelterinplace and you are already in such a small area that there is no sheltering in place by yourself, there is no social distancing. If you are a mother in one of these refugee camps and you have several children and you have a choice between purchasing a bar of soap or feeding your children , if we cant get the humanitarian aid for simple supplies like soap, you have to forgo that in order to feed your children. So it is important right now, especially during covid 19, especially in areas of conflict that they maintain this local ceasefire. The un Security Council, we had our resolution on the ceasefire and that has allowed us more humanitarian aid, more humanitarian workers, it has protected the pregnant women coming from syria over the border to give birth, the ones coming from venezuela into columbia. The global ceasefire has helped to protect those in need, especially in covid19. Another area that concerns me as we are also focused on covid as we should be, we cannot forget there are simple machinations simple vaccinations that infants and children are not receiving because we are focused on covid. They alreadymember information before covid and we need to make sure the medicine and supplies reaching the situation that were there before covid. We are going to hear from Laura Garrett later in the program, i think on thursday. We now have a question from charlie dunlap. Questioners, hold on. It will hold dark for a second and you will be promoted to panelist. No need to log back in. Thank you, madam ambassador. Im a retired Major Air Force general. Im now teaching at a law school. I would like to follow up on something mr. Leggett raised and that was the Human Rights Council must specifically recently a report by a prophet provocatuer that condemned drones and alleged that u. S. Strike on solemani was illegal under international law. My question is do you have any comment on that . Specifically i would be interested to know what other nations have said to you about the strike and what and whether they were supportive of the United States are not. Thank you. Soleimani was planning and had planned several attacks on u. S. Military and our likeminded allies. This is a rogue regime, a regime that has that promotes bloodshed. This is a regime that executes its own people. I could go on and on. The Iranian Regime is propping up assad. This is a dictator he uses chemical weapons against his own people. They are propping up the rebels we are in lebanon going to go after any player and any regime that is harming American Military and personnel. And solemani wrecked havoc on a daily basis and we are not one minute we are going to use every tool we have to take down allowingat are not human lives and exploiting others. His is a rogue regime solemani was part of it. We know for a fact and i will tell you there were several countries that had a side solemani no know by longer being there, it helped save their country. Privately, do other ambassadors of the u. N. Told you they approved of the strike but would not say that publicly . Kelly i have ambassadors come up to me before covid when i was at the u. N. On a daily basis that would thank america for the in differentare ways keeping their country safe, whether it be through the Security Council resolution, whether it be in statements from President Trump. People understand the importance of the fact that america takes the lead on protecting people around the world. So, yes. If i could follow up on charlie dunlaps point is there an argument part of the point of the u. N. Is to have every country adhere to the same set of rules. If the United States takes the position that anywhere there is an individual thats a threat, it reserves the right to use a thereand lethal force, would be global chaos and war of every country acted im not saying i necessarily believe that, but thats the argument. Can you respond to why america has the right to be exceptional in this regard . Kelly we wouldnt even be having this conversation if every country adhere to and divided by the u. N. Charter. Lets start act from 75 years ago and the charter in 1948. If everybody adhered and upheld this charter, with human rights and freedom of democracy and would not speech, we have to take the measures that we take. I will tell you anytime an american is in harms way, american troops, american personnel, we are going to take measures that is going to mitigate that situation, whether it is take that person out, whatever it takes, there will not be American Military servicemen and women and american personnel in harms way under the Trump Administration. If we cant get the u. N. To act on it together, we will do it alone. Anja understood. I think we have time for one more question. Then i want to give ambassador kraft and eli one minute to close it out. We lost them. Maybe i will turn to you with one last question can you hear me now . Over the two years with the north korean problem in the how do you view the perspective of the north korean problem and a Nuclear Threat . Do you prefer some pressure or diplomatic ways . Our preferred tool is whatever works to protect the people in north korea and the region around north korea. We have an obligation and President Trump, as you well know, meeting with chairman kim, about oury clear denuclearizing, of de weaponizing, making sure the region around north korea its a daily discussion, its something we keep a very close eye on, if you heard the news today, it is something we take very serious and we are very concerned about. I hope i understood your question correctly. If i didnt, could you repeat it . Anja thank you very much. Eli, do you want to say last few words . Eli i want to thank the ambassador so much for doing this. I learned a lot and i hope everyone else did. I know its not easy to take these questions in a zoom format from all different regions of the world, but i think you did a great job. Thank you so much for your time. Do you have anything you want to say . Kelly i want to thank the Aspen Institute and all the media because without the media shining the light on what was happening with the refugees in syria, i dont know that we would have had the 12 month border, the 12 month mandate. Without the media really showing all the graphic images of children and women during the winter months, we might have just had a six month mandate. Gratitude toendous , le reporting accurately h minus gratitude to people reporting accurate. Just a nugget of information and truth that the listeners can take and its really important we have institutes like the Aspen Institute that have people from all walks of the applicable spectrum and all beliefs. I appreciate the fact you have allowed me to continue to shine this light on china, you can come to me tomorrow and next year and im going to be continuing the same light, so we finally show the world that human rights abuses that are happening inside china and we owe it to the uighurs, we owe it to the africans, we owe it to the people in hong kong that have fought for democracy. Every day, im going to be talking about whats happening in china and also shining a light on russia. You Better Believe im happy they are in the Security Council because that gives me the to haveity to be able that dialogue and say we are on to you, we know what you are doing, and theres not one second the u. S. Is going to stand by and let this happen. Anja thank you very much for this excellent interview and thanks for shouting this out. This is exactly what we are trying to do at the Aspen Institute, have different viewpoints, international viewpoints, and we are strictly bipartisan and we are very grateful to have you here. Thank you very much. Later today, President Trump trumpa News Conference at National Golf club. Watch that live starting at 3 p. M. Eastern today on cspan. On monday, a discussion on the turkish president and the role of islam in politics in his country and the region, hosted by the middle east institute. Thats live begin at 12 00 noon on cspan. You can also watch online or listen with the cspan radio app. Weeknights this month, we are featuring book tv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan two. Monday, starting at 8 30 eastern, a take on life in the u. S. Since the election of President Trump. Then, the chief economist for Bloomberg Economics discusses why the chinese economy never collapses and what would happen if it ever does. Later, hoover institute