Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing On Venezuelas Security And Humanitarian Issues 20240712

Chairman risch Senate Foreign Relations Committee will come to order, please. I want to thank special representative abrams and Senior Deputy assistant administrator hodges for their service and for appearing here today to discuss the worsening crisis in venezuela. Its hard to imagine a more pressing National Security concern in the western hemisphere than the political, humanitarian, and economic crisis provoked by maduro and his cronies in venezuela. In the last several years maduro has dramatically deepened relation was the most dangerous forces in the world which were first established by his predecessor, hugo chavez. On his watch, cuba, russia, china, iran transnational criminal organizations, and u. S. Designated foreign terrorist organizations, have turned venezuela into their playground. Their activities are intolerable. Security threats to the United States and the hemisphere at large. And prolong the humanitarian crisis provoked by the socialist policies of the regime. Nearly 5. 2 million venezuelans have fled their homeland. Placing a huge burden on the neighboring countries that have generously accepted these refugees from maduros regime. 96 of those who have stayed behind live in poverty. With 80 facing extreme poverty. Chronic Food Shortages and the dysfunctional Public Health care system have condemned an entire generation to hunger and stunted growth. A series of unsuccessful attempts to restore freedom in the last year compounded by maduros desires and ability to stay in power by perpetuating corruption and torture have emboldened the regime and Left Democratic Forces facing daunting challenges. President Trumps Campaign of maximum pressure is a welcome improvement. We should leave no stone untirned turned into support of the venezuelan peoples efforts to rid themselves of this evil. It is also appropriate to continue providing assistance to enable venezuelas neighbors to help the millions of venezuelan refugees they are hosting. The International Community, especially the European Union and spain, must increase economic pressure on maduro if they are serious about the return of democracy to venezuela and the end of the humanitarian nightmare there. We must make clear to maduros meptors in havana and moscow that this game is over. I look forward it hearing from todays witness abouts the steps the u. S. Government is taking to counter the maligned influences in venezuela. With that i know our rm has strong feelings on this. I yield the floor to him. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for working with me on this hearing. I appreciate t it. Mr. Abrams, you come before the committee at an urgent moment for venezuela, one with implication force the United States and our entire hemisphere. Senator menendez we face a critical moment for venezuelas interim government as the maduro regime seeks to constol date a criminal dictatorship with a helping hand from havana. This crisis directly affects National Security interests, and our geopolitical competitors, russia, and china, and iran seek to undermine american influence. Moreover, the people of venezuela continue suffering grave human rights abuses. A humanitarian catastrophe worsened by covid19 pandemic and mass displacement across the hemisphere. As venezuelans strife to struggle strive to struggle to restore their democratcy, legislative elections are scheduled this year. Not surprisingly the maduro regime has rigged every aspect of the electoral process therefore r thereby ensuring increased instability and more widespread suffering. The evidence is already there. After two decades of u. S. Investment in colombias security, we now see colombian guerrillas operating openly across venezuela in large swaths of ungoverned territory. They join a wide range of armed actors, promoting and profiting from the drug trade, illegal gold mining, and human suffering. Most tragically is the daily suffering that venezuelans endure. Sexual violence, and trafficking of venezuelan women and girls are reportedly on the rise. Dramatic increases in maternal and infant mortality reflect the dire state of venezuelas health system. And the World Food Program assessed in february that one third of venezuelans face moderate or severe food insecurity. Additionally, maduros brutal regime has perpetrated more state sponsored murders, state sponsored murders, than any latin American Government since the dirty wars of the 1970s and 1980s. In the last two years, the u. N. High commissioner for human rights has reported over 8,000 extra judicial killings by maduros security forces, as well as grotesque pat of torture and rape. These conditions have forced more than 5. 2 million venezuelans to flea flee their country in search of protection and assistance. I traveled to colombia a year ago where i heard heartwrenching stories from individuals major league the humanitarian tragedy in venezuela. With the covid19 pandemic and related economic down turn converging on the crisis of venezuelan refugees and migrants, the United States must mobilize International Partners to further expand assistance and protection for the venezuelan people. If the current trajectory continues, more venezuelans will be displaced from their homes than the number of syrians displaced during that devastating nearly decadelong conflict. While other countries are generously hosting millions of venezuelans, the Trump Administration has ignored my repeated requests to grant temporary protected status to some 200,000 venezuelans in the United States. It has turned away venezuelan Asylum Seekers at our southern border, and that is absolutely unacceptable. The Administration Must change course. Through my the act last year, democrats and republicans in concert with the Administration United in our recognition of interim president. However in june President Trump stated he did not think this decision to recognize the new president was quote very meaningful. Sending the wrong signal to our allies and adversaries. We must be purposeful and lead the formidable coalition we helped build to support the president. I expect to hear a strategic about how well work with our partners to make sure maduro doesnt use fraudulent elections. With maduro and his cronies facing charges in the United States for Drug Trafficking and graft, there should be no doubt about their criminal credentials. We are dealing with a massive Law Enforcement challenge in venezuela. Never have so many in our hemisphere fallen victim of to cabal of victims willing to destroy their own country for the soul purpose of enriching themselves and avoiding justice. We must coordinate an international combain to confront the regimes criminal it. I look criminality. And i look forward to hearing from you what will increase our chances of success in the next six months. Yes, i said changes. There has been bipartisan support for most of our sanctions and the 600 million in foreign assistance we have used for humanitarian aid, but maduro remains entrenched in power and humanitarian access to venezuela is extremely limited. We cannot continue on the same course and expect to achieve different results. I fear the Administration May very well have squandered a limited window of opportunity crafted by valian venezuelans. I hope its not too late to open that window gefpblet thank you, mr. Chairman. Chairman risch thank you, senator menendez. Those remarks are well taken. I think out of all the things going on in the Congress Today that divides us, probably nothing brings us together more than a sense that maduro has to go and that we are united if not universally, very close to universally in that effort. We are anxious to hear what these witnesses have to safmente today im pleased to welcome to the committee, u. S. Special representative for venezuela, elliott abrams. Mr. Joshua hodges, Senior Deputy assistant administrator for latin america and the caribbean at the u. S. Agency for international development, usaid. Mr. Abrams is a scholar and experienced Foreign Policy expert. Hes served in two administrations and on the staff of senators Henry Jackson and dan moynihan. He has written five books on american Foreign Policy and teaches on the subject at georgetown universitys school of foreign service. Mr. Horges oversees usaid programs in latin america and the caribbean. He previously served on the staff of congressman mike johnson and senator david vitter of louisiana. At the department of energys National Nuclear security administration, and the National Security council in the white house. Well start with mr. Abrams. R. Abrams, the floor is yours. Your microphone is not on. Very complicated. Mr. Abrams chairman risch, rm menendez, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to testify on our effort in support of the venezuelan people. This policy has broad bipartisan support been successful in supporting the democratic opposition, main tagovailoaing a Broad International coalition, and denying revenue to maduros brutal regime, but we have yet to see the invoking of free and mare president ial leakses. Nor do we see the conditions that would permit such elections. In january, 2019, the u. S. Was the first country to recognize interim president juan goy dough goido. Since then he has secured the support of nearly 60 countries. We remain steadfast in our support for the interim president. We proposed a democratic transition framework for venezuela as a path to establish a broadly acceptable Transitional Government to oversee free and fair president ial and parliamentary elections. We are prepared to work with all venezuelans and other nations to achieve this goal and to lift sanctions when the necessary conditions are met. I want to thank this committee and congress for its support through legislation and funding. The u. S. Is the single largest donor of humanitarian assistance for venezuela. From 2017 to now, the u. S. Has provided more than 856 million to venezuelans suffering inside venezuela and neighboring countries. We should recognize those that have welcomed five million venezuelans, especially colombia, peru, ecuador for their continued support as well. Criminal dictatorships like maduros are hard to defeat. The maduro regimes relentless attacks on dissidents and against venezuelas last democrat tick institution, the National Assembly, demonstrate a success of retaining power regardless of the cost to the nation and its people. In july, the u. N. High commissioner for human rights released two reports on Human Rights Violations in venezuela. Its reported maduro and his thugs continue intimidation, repression, arbitrary detentions, torture, and murder. This includes 1,324 extra judicial killings from january to may of this year. For more than 2 1 2 years, the regime has unlawfully detained six u. S. Oil executives. Who were relieved to hear july 30 mr. Cardenas and mr. Toledo were moved to house arrest. This is a positive first step. Of course we hope for more. The regime also continues to detine nearly 400 political prisoners, including military officers, medical professionals, juremmists journalists, dissident evans. Guidos chief of staff. Tional Assembly Deputies and labor rights activist gonzalez. We are concerned over foreign maligned influence in venezuela and mat cureo regimes collaboration with nonstate armed groups such as park farc. They are revutecruthing vulnerable venezuelan children into armed conflict. Compelling many into forced labor. Cuba treats venezuela as a colony, shipping food, medicine, diesel, and gasoline from venezuela to cuba, even as the venezuelan people suffer short ands of all of them. Shortages of all of them. Cuban security personnel surround maduro. They are embedded in the military. China helps the regime move cyber operations. Now we are seeing a rekindling of the relationship of the worlds worst state sponsor of terrorism, the Islamic Republic of iran. Maduros recent hijacking of the electoral and major Democratic Political parties foreshadow how the regime plans to take control of the National Assembly through fraudulent elections in december. On sunday, 27 Democratic Political parties in venezuela joined in unity to say they refuse to participate in that farce. Im sure democracies around the world will also refuse to recognize such a fraud. We look forward to the day when free and Fair Elections are held. A new democratically elected government is in place. U. S. Sanction can then be lifted. We look forward to restoring once close venezuelau. S. Relations to help the refugees return to their beloved country and seeing the venezuelan children share in the beauty and boundiful natural wealth of their country. Mr. Chairman, senator menendez thank you for inviting me here today. And for your continuing interest and the strong bipartisan support this committee has shown toward the struggle for freedom in venezuela. I look forward to answering your questions. Chairman risch thank you, mr. Abrams. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Hodges chairman risch, rm menendez, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity and honor to be here to testify been on behalf of usaid. We are grateful for your bipartisan support for the responsive venezuelan regional crisis. 18 months ago the Trump Administration recognized guid. To as the legitimate and interim president of the venezuela in accordance with their constitution. As you know this crisis has been mufferedr manufactured by and inability to govern rampant corruption which has resulted in economic collapse of severe humanitarian consequences and culture of propregs that the regime continues to use to jail, torture, and murder the people. Today the interim government and National Assembly continue to push forward despite very challenging circumstances, huge the humanitarian and economic crisis, and most recently covid19. Most of these dire realities, more than 5. 2 million venezuelans have left overwhelm and reloathed to neighboring contrifments to address this crisis, inside Vice President pence quaila and throughout the region, the u. S. Agency is providing substantial coordinated humanitarian and Development Assistance. Inside, usaids humanitarian assist is saving lives through health care that stems the spread of infectious diseases. Meals and vital water, an contiguous, and hygiene supplies. A few examples of this assistance includes serving more than 1. 4 million hot meals to vulnerable venezuelans, and delivering enough medical supplies to help facilities to help 160,000 people. In addition to the previous existing chal lection, covid19 is exacerbating an already dire situation inside venezuela. In response to the man pandemic, usaid is providing Emergency Assistance invide venezuela and throughout the inside venezuela and throughout the region. Maduro has created numerous object stibblings and barriers for national n. G. O. s. Humanitarian organizations face constant harass mament from security pesh nell affiliated with maduro and they continue to impede International Staff from registering certain organizations. Usaid condemns any efforts to intimidate or threaten humanitarian workers seeking to save lives. Throughout the region, usaids priority is to support communities general russly hosting venezuelans especially in brazil, colombia, weak door, and peru. We are aiming to reach approximately 943,000 refugees, migrants, and these countries with food assist an, health care, and water. He Agency Recognizes a mix and median and longterm aance ssistance is needed. And government capacity building. In venezuela we are using Development Assistance to support the government and National Assembly with technical training, staffing support, equipment and communication efforts. Usaids support bolsters the interim governments ability to interact with the constituents despite the increase from oppression from the regime. Our commitment to democracy and the rule of law is central to our engagement in the hemisphere. In addition to the guido administration and assembly, usaid strongly supports those who defend human rights and serve as Civil Society watchdogs. We have been critical to investigate and documenting rampant exruppings, flagrant electoral fraud, and wide ranging human rights abuses. With our support independent outlets are better able to operate so they can share with Vice President pence quailian through communications. Usaid is also helping democratic forcers plan for the day the maduro regime gives away to freedom and authentic change can take place. When change occurs, funding through our Bilateral Agreement will position us to be ready to expand our work quickly. For the time being, the effort continues to support the people of venezuela. The guido administration, National Assembly, scores of n. G. O. s and activists who bravely continue to struggle despite oppression and the difficult situations on the ground. One critical step must be taken for a free and prosperous venezuela. The world must measure maduro to relinquish and control and allow for democratic change. This includes truly free elections not the rigged elections maduro plans. Venezuelans have suffered long enough under his brutality. We look forward to the day we it can celebrate with all venezuelans as a free and democratic society. Thank you for the ability to testify. That can you. Chairman risch well do ruined of questioning now. Start briefly and turn it over to senator menendez. You mentioned these elections coming up. Its my mr. Abrams, this question is for you. Its my understanding that maduro has taken a page out of the iranians book where they have an Election Commission that decides who can run and who cant run. Anything that happens like that, of course, immediately takes away any legitimacy that the election would have. I think its important that this be highlighted and that the people understand that if you can pick your opponent, there is no question how or opponents, there is no question how the election will come out. Your thoughts . Mr. Abrams mr. Chairman, i agree with that. They have prevented a large number of people from running. They have taken over several of the largest political parties, simply replaced the leadership of the parties and given alt parties assets, offices, Party Symbols to people that the regime chooses. They are going to hold this election, they say, december 6. There are today in venezuela zero voting machines. Zero. So how they are going to do this i think defies comprehension and like the 2018 president ial election, this is going to be another fraud. Chairman risch thanks. I think thats i think thats critical for everybody to understand. I also think that we need to underscore that this is not an election at all. Its just a facade that has no authority ctical whatsoever. Secondly, you didnt mention the militarys role in all of this. We all know there is robust military in venezuela. Im told there are 3500 generals. Im not sure you how you discipline a military thats got 3500 generals. Your thoughts on where they are and where they are going. Mr. Abrams there are more generals in venezuela than all the nato countries put together. I think there is a lot of worry in many ranks of the military about the condition of the country. Youre a soldier. You are an officer. You have a mother, father, aunts, uncles. You see how they are living. You know whats happening to the country. But you are being spied on by the thousands of cuban intelligence agents. And at the very top you have a lot of people who are quite corrupt and profiting from this regime. So the military has at least up to now been unwilling to separate itself at all from what the regime is doing to the country. Its tragic because a democratic venezuela is going to need a professional military. They have a lot of Security Problems they are going to need to deal with. Our hope would be that they would try to reestablish the military and distance themselves from the crimes of this regime. Chairman risch thank you much. Senator menendez. Senator menendez thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Abrams, on sunday venezuelas Opposition Coalition announced that it will not participate in maduros fraudulent undemocratic legislative elections. Yet this esignificance carries implications to venezuelas currently democratically elected National Assembly and the government of the interim president. Venezuelas believe their constitution to the degree it still exists under maduros dictatorship calls for a new National Assembly to be seated the first week of january, 2021. Im deeply concerned that maduro will use the moment to fully consolidate his criminal dictatorship in venezuela. Given the opposition decision not to participate in the fraudulent legislative elections, how do you access the impact the interim how it impacts the interim government in the first week of january when there is supposed to be a new National Assembly . Whats the implications for u. S. Policy and our recognition of the guido government . Mr. Abrams thanks, senator. Juan guido occupies the office of interim president because it was vacant as a result of the may, 2018 corrupt and fraudulent president ial elections. In our view nothing changes on january 5 with respect to juan guido. That office of the presidency is still vacant because of the 2018 election. It cannot be that maduro can improve his situation legally or practically by holding another corrupt and fraudulent election. So in our view the constitutional president of venezuela today and after january 5, 2021 is juan guido. The National Assembly that has en meeting until about march is not going to be able to meet. I think you can expect that if they tried to meet everybody in it would be arrested by this regime. I do think that there is the danger that maduro will be ablele to shut down the operations of any kind of independent National Assembly. But he will not change the legal status. I think for many, many countries around the world senator menendez what efforts are we taking with our International Partners to push back both against maduros undemocratic elections and in their continuing recognition of guido after january, assuming this plays out the way we envisioned it . Mr. Abrams on the question of recognition of guido and the recognition of this fraudulent parliamentary election, we have been discussing this with lots of partners. There are about 60 countries that recognize guido, and i do expect all of them, we will be in touch with any we havent been, will continue to recognize him and will not recognize this fraudulent election. Senator menendez i hope that there is a moreau bust engagement with our International Partners, because my personal sense of conversations i have had is that its fraying. I think we can ill afford that at the end of the day. Lell me turn to let me turn to illegal mining and what i call blood gold. As the venezuela crisis deteriorates, there is growing evidence that violent groups are competing for control of the countrys Mineral Resources which has resulted in a boom of illegal gold mining. That blood gold industry is destroying vast areas of the amazon rainforest, fueling human rights abuses, particularl among indigenous populations and particularly among indigenous populations. What specific steps is the United States taking along with other International Actors to ensure that companies that purchase, sell, and trade gold that are being extracted in this i way are following regulations and not unwittingly supporting illegal gold Mining Operations in venezuela. Mr. Abrams senator, there is more legal mining. The july 15 report of the u. N. High commission for human rights, there is a whole section. What we have been doing is following every single case we can find of the shipment of gold out of venezuela antipurchase of gold by anybody. As we find it, we go after both the country and the company. And in a number of cases we have gone out, we have gone to governments and said this is happening in your territory. And you have to prevent it. And we have been successful. We find, for example, people doing this last year have now stopped. But there is more of it now. So we are stepping up our activities, we being the state department and treasury department, to go after every single case of this we find. Senator menendez i would be interested to know if you need any other legislative or regulatory assistance to do this, because obviously a lot is getting out and the countrys national patry moany is being used in way thats so corrupt and so pervasive against it. Final question, if i may, mr. Chairman. Does the Trump Administration have the authority to grant t. P. S. To eligible venezuelans . Mr. Abrams the authority, yes. Senator menendez do you agree it would not be safe to deport venezuelans back to maduros dictatorship at this time . Mr. Abrams yes. We are not doing that. Senator menendez why isnt the president designated venezuela for t. P. S. . Mr. Abrams i think Court Decisions removed the t. It seems irreversible now and that makes for reluctance to do it. Senator menendez i dont think Court Decisions can undermine the stat tore statutory reels of t. P. S. It depends how one undoes t. P. S. We applaud colombia. Ecuador, all these countries 245 have take that have taken millions of people. And we cant even give a temporary protective status to those venezuelans already here. Thats not leadership. Its not sending a global message that what we ask others to do, we are willing to do ourselves. Mr. Abrams we are not deporting venezuelans back to venezuela, senator. Senator menendez im glad to hear that. But at the end of the day, they are in an indefinite limbo in their lives here. There is no reason for that when you have a process that can give you a temporary protected status. Give you a pathway forward to regularize your life while you are waiting for the moment to return to your country. I just dont get it. The aversion to this is beyond the imagination. Chairman risch thank you, senator menendez. Mr. Abrams i want to join in in senator menendezs invitation to you. If you need statutory assistance regarding the illegal gold or oil for that matter, i think we are all in. These countries and these dictators survive because they have a flow of cash. That cash comes from those products. I think senator menendez and i would be glad to join in any efforts to assist you legislatively. Senator paul. Senator paul thank you. R. Abrams, without a doubt venezuela is a socialist nightmare. Its, indeed, a vivid indictment of the economiccies tesm socialism. Its appalling that a country like venezuela that sits atop more oil than saudi arabia is in such a dire state that people actually eat their pets. No one disputes the disaster that is venezuelan socialism. However, when it comes to regime change, the u. S. Track record is less than stellar. It has been largely ignored that the possible replacement for maduro, guido, is also a socialist. His Political Party is recognized by the socialist international. My fear is that even if you get a kinder, gentler form of socialism, its still socialism. The results will be similar. Economic malaise and economic disaster. What do you say as to replacing one socialist with another in venezuela . Mr. Abrams i dont think the main problem in venezuela is one party or another is a member of the owingsist international, which a lot of partners of ours in europe are and have been. Its that its a vicious brutal, murderous dictatorship. Thats the real reason we are engaged there. Senator paul that response somehow alleviates the stigma of socialism from being a problem. Socialism isnt the problem there. I guess many others who watched socialism through the years have argued that you cant have a kinder, gentler form of socialism. What happens with democratic socialism is when you want to own them, have the state own the means of production, or when you have the state own property, that ultimately it deinvolves into a cronyistic system that what chavez and maduro started out as is not what it ended up as. When you have a more complete form of socialism, socialism evolves, perhaps authoritarianism is a side effect of socialism. When bautista was rooted out, he was a socalled cronyist, whatever, there were people who supported castro, many well intended people supported castro. It turned out he was probably worse than bautista. I think we ought to be careful with this. Discounting socialism has anything to do with it is discounting an economic nightmare that has happened in venezuela and saying its just because you have bad socialists. If you have better socialist we wouldnt have a problem. Do you think the u. S. Government has the the president has the right to military militarily bring about regime change in venezuela without the authority of congress . Mr. Abrams thats not our policy. Senator paul do you think the president has the rye to do that . Mr. Abrams i think the president has the right to conduct the Foreign Policy of the United States under the constitution. And we certainly would like to see a democratic venezuela. Senator paul sounds like a nonanswer. The question is, do you believe that the president has the right to do it without Congressional Authority . This is a very important constitutional question. Also if the answer is that socialisms not the problem, we think one socialist is a little bit more benign than another socialist, and we think the president has the right to do t. We could very much be involved in this. The reason why this is important and why the discussion of regime change is important is that President Trump gets it more than almost anybody else that the iraq war, which i know you were a big proponent of, was an utter disaster. That in getting rid of one bad person, we were left with something maybe even worse. And that is the vacuum, the chaos and terrorism that comes from having no government. This happened again in libya. So the real question of whether or not we want to always think we know whats best for another country and we are going to replace one leader with one less bad is an important one. Do you still believe that the iraq war was a something that you would support today . You still think the iraq war was a good idea . Mr. Abrams senator, i havent thought about the iraq war in years because im in this job. Senator paul another nonanswer. It would be nice to know if the president had somebody around him that agreed. He thinks its the worst Public Policy decision of the last generation that it led to a vacuum that led to chaos and more terrorism. But also led to more of the emboldenment of iran. The same hawks that wanted to go after hussein now want to go after iran. Now iran is worse because humane is gone. One thing needs leads to nomplete i think the discussion of regime change is an important one and i think we should not so casually dismiss socialism as being the problem in venezuela. Mr. Abrams im not casually dismissing it. I think it is a very bad Economic Policy. We have had allies england has had socialist governments. France. Germany has had socialist governments. They were allies of ours throughout the cold war. That was not the problem as long as they were democrats. Whether they pursue a terrible Economic Policy is theirs to decide because its their country. The problem with venezuela is that it has a murderous corrupt regime that is having an impact not only inside but on the neighbors. Senator paul the question is whether murderous thugs are an accident of history or whether they are a consequence of socialism. Why does it seem that time and time again socialism leads to awe tock acy . That is important because if you get a benign democratic socialism, how long does that last until it deinvolves into author tearism. I think it authoritarianism. I think its a question worth asking. Chairman risch senator shaheen. Senator sha lean thank you both for being here. Senator shaheen thank you both for being here. Ambassador abrams, foreign powers have not only publicly supported the maduro regime but through a network of shell corporations and sanctions schemes they have significantly enriched maduro and his cronies while ordinary venezuelans continue to suffer. I know that a number of sanctions have been taken in response to illegal activities stemming from adversaries like russia, cuba, and iran. But turkey, on the other hand, is engaged in these same activities as nato ally. Venezuelan Government Associates have established numerous front and Shell Companies in turkey. For example, and i may not be ronouncing this correctly, a tiny Turkish Company tied to maduro has capital of just 1,775 and no refineries. Yet it was responsible for 8 of Venezuelas Oil exports in 2019. Given whats going on with turkey, isnt there more that we should do to disrupt president erdogan and turkey support of maduro and his most corrupt links . Mr. Abrams yes, senator. It is a real problem. Turkey is not doing in venezuela what the russians or the cubans are doing. Their presence not so great. But they are aligning themselves to this type of corrupt activity. Gold. We see a lot of gold passing through turkey. We saw this earlier this year some of these Front Companies develop in mexico. But with the help of Mexican Government we are shutting them down. We just havent had that help from the turkish government. Senator shaheen thats why i asked if we dont think there is more that we should be thinking about in terms of sanctioning turkey. Mr. Abrams we keep trying. The treasury. We keep going after companies as we find them. Senator shaheen can you give us a list of those companies that we have gone after in turkey and the success we have had at doing that . Mr. Abrams i cant today. But be happy to supply it to you. Some of it for investigations that are ongoing. Wouldnt be able to do. We would do it or do in a classified form. Be happy to do it. Senator shaheen i think that would be helpful. That could be something shared with the whole committee. Chairman risch mr. Abrams, if you could provide that list what you can that isnt classified, for the record, that would be much appreciated. Senator shaheens points are well taken as it relates to turkey. Senator shaheen during the last hearing the Committee Held on venezuela in march of 2019, we discussed the impact that this conflict is having on women. And several people have mentioned that already. Then usaid administrator mark green stated the disproportionate humanitarian effects on women and girls is the most dark and gloomy part of venezuelas crisis. So can you, either one of you, give us an update on the humanitarian assistance efforts that we have undertaken with respect to women and girls, particularly given whats happening with the coronavirus . Mr. Abrams mr. Hodges this is an issue we are tracking closely across the region. Stemming from the pandemic and its impacts to different countries. Specific to venezuela usaid promotes these type of promotion activities that are streamlining through all of our programming. To date we focused on the most immediate lifesaving assistance first and foremost, primarily health and food. And the prevention of genderbased violence and response to genderbased violence is, as i stated, come unthe protection activities writ large through all our programming. Its an area given the pandemic we are looking to step up and make sure within venezuela and throughout the region we are more directly addressing. But its part of all of our programming and with regards to inside venezuela, as access becomes available to additional funding, well incorporate this further. Just highlight the number. To date the u. S. Government has provided 611 million in humanitarian assistance. And so portions of that Funding Impact this. Its an area i know we need to do more in. Senator shaheen you say we need to step up. Are you suggesting that more money needs to be provided . We need to be engaging in different kinds of activities . We need to be working more with the International Community . What do you mean specifically . Mr. Hodges we are already working aggressively with the International Community on this. In fact, there are specific programs that are funded through usaid that directly address this. What i mean by that is make sure that as we are pushing this, as we are seeing these trends emerge because of the pandemic, we are having the discussion was with our implementing partners. Something they do as one of sort of a number of things, but its an area of focus they are taking seriously they are coming up with new ways to address it. I can speak to covid writ large across the region. We are we have already had conversations to ensure we have specific programs in place that are addressing genderbased violence and helping women and minorities who are being targeted. Senator shaheen thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Chairman risch thank you, senator shaheen. Mr. Abrams, thank you. Both of our individuals this morning who have testified, i appreciate your work and perspective. Mr. Abrams, in june the president took a surprising tact with regards to mr. Guido. He said he was elected. I think it wasnt necessarily i wasnt necessarily in favor. I said some people liked it. Some people didnt. Mr. Romney i was ok with it. I dont think it was meaningful one way or the other. And i think that was a surprise in that the policy of our nation had been pretty consistently saying we recognize pld guido as the president of the country and someone who we firmly supported. There really is only one voice that matters when it comes to speaking on the nations Foreign Policy. The state department and all of us can express our various views. Im sure those have some weight. But to the world antipeople of venezuela, its the and the people of venezuela, its the president who speaks for the nation. Perhaps he shares senator pauls comment that all socialists are pretty much the same. Whether its guido or maduro, doesnt make a big difference. What is the posture of the United States of america with regards to the presidency of venezuela . And will that ever be communicated to the world unless the president expresses it is himself . Mr. Abrams the policy is we recognize the interim president of venezuela and have since january 5, 2019. We continue to do so. We will continue to do so after these corrupt parliamentary elections. And we try to say that in many different ways every day. Senator romney my question was, in the president says it, will that ever break through . Mr. Abrams i think the president has said it. You remember the state of the union when guaido not only met with the president but was a guest in the balcony there and got happily bipartisan ovations. I think the president has said it. Senator romney without russia and venezuela and cuba supporting maduro, do you believe he would be able to hang on . Mr. Abrams i do not. I think those maybe 2,500 cuban intelligence agents and the russian veto and the Security Council are important in keeping maduro in power. Senator romney what, then, could we do with regards to russia, china, cuba . If we were really serious about removing maduro and seeing a democratically elected president in that country, what would we be doing . Would the president not be having this on a call with putin xi. What actions could we take if we were very serious about removing maduro and seeing five Million People be able to return to their homes . Mr. Abrams there is a spectrum, senator. I suppose at the far end of it you could blockade venezuela. That is an act of war. You could do it and you could prevent ships from going in and coming out. We have obviously chosen not to do that. We do talk to the chinese about this. We talk to the russians about this. I dont think either of them has very great confidence in maduro. If you look at the amount of money china has put into venezuela this year, its basically zero. They are backing away. The russians are taking money out of venezuela trying to get their money back. They maintain the political protection and protection in the u. N. Senator romney given your expression of their timid support for maduro, would it not be possible for us to expert sufficient exert sufficient incentive for them to walk away from him as opposed to continuing to support him in such a substantial way . Were this not a high priority for our nation . Are we so incapable of use of soft power to get two nations which you suggest dont have a great commitment to maduro to back away . Mr. Abrams it hasnt worked so far. I think from the point of view of putin, this is the kind of freebie in the sense that it isnt costing him money now. Obviously hes got a base in south america. But as you start to weigh what are the things you would actually do in that bargain with putin . We have not found anything attractive. Senator romney thank you. Mr. Chairman, ill return the time. Your point its a freebie for russia i would suggest its in our interest to make sure its not a freebie for russia. Chairman risch thank you senator romney, for returning the time, well put it in the bank. But its a minus seven. Senator romney is there maint charge . Chairman risch well talk. Senator murphy. Senator murphy thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I feel like its groundhog day in this committee. We have been told by the administration, multiple administration for years, russias support for assad and irans support for assad is tepid. Its fragile. Its matter of time before he falls. The truth of the matter is they were always willing to do more than we were in syria free throw text our interests. That is likely the exact same case here in venezuela. Our policy has been misguided by fundamentally flawed assumptions from the beginning. And i have deep respect for both of you who are testifying before this committee. But we just have to be clear our venezuela policy over the last year and a half has been an unmitigated disaster. If we arent honest about that, we cant selfcorrect. We have to admit that our big play recognizes. Guaido, right out of the gate and moving quickly to implement sanctions didnt work. It didnt. All it did was harden russia and cubas play in venezuela and allowed maduro to paint him as an american patsy. A lot of us warned that this might happen. We could have used the prospect of u. S. Recognition or sanctions as leverage. We could have spent more time trying to get european allies and other partners on the same page. We could have spent more time trying to talk to or neutralize china and russia early before we backed them into a corner. A corner from which they are not moving. They are not moving. But all we did was play all our cards on day one and it didnt work. Its just been an embarrassing mistake after mistake since. First we thought that getting guaido to declare himself president would be enough to topal regime. Then we thought putting aid on the border would be enough. Then we tried to sort of construct a kind of coup in april of last year and it blew up in our face when all the generals that were supposed to break with maduro decided to stick with him in the end. We undermined norways talks last summer. This march we release add transition framework that, frankly s. Almost a carbon copy of the very one that was in front of the parties last year. Now after wasting all of this time, we are stuck with elections about to happen that as we talked about today, guaido and the opposition refuse to enter. Then we are going to be in a position where we are recognizing someone as the leader of venezuela who doesnt control the government, who doesnt run the military, and doesnt even hold office. We dont do this in other places. Nobody knows the name of the guy who finished second in the 2018 russian president ial election. We dont recognize that person as the president of russia. No matter how corrupt those elections are because doing that makes us look weak and feckless if we cant do anything about it. I do think its important to ask some questions about what comes next. I might have time for only one but i have two. The first is this question of what do we do with guaido . You are saying well recognize him because hes the former leader of the National Assembly. You know there are, mr. Abrams, there are contests for supremacy within the opposition. What happens if six months from today someone else emerges as a more legitimate voice for the opposition than guaido . What criteria do we use to recognize someone new or is he going to be the recognized leader of venezuela permanently no matter how conditions change on the ground . Mr. Abrams i think the situation is unique because he is the president of the interNational Assembly. They are going to have a corrupt election now which no one i think, no democratic country, will recognize. And that corrupt election, that fraud is not going to change guaidos status. Dont think youll find anybody in the opposition leadership who will claim otherwise. Also i just like to say, senator, that was not the vote of df dense in thepolicy. Senator murphy i will stipulate to that. I think that thats a fallacy to suggest that no one is going to step forward and replace guaido. I think we have to sort of at least think through the criteria by which we may recognize somebody else. Let me ask a quick second question which is this. Guaidos prewreck wits for participating in the lection did not including maduro stepping down. You said the only thing we want to talk to maduro about is his removal from power. Are we open, the United States of america, to a discussion with maduro in which he stays in power as a transition to an election that is actually free and fair . Frankly, even if hes not in power there is no guarantee that his allies couldnt rig an election. Why arent we open to that as a possible path forward . Mr. Abrams because we do not believe that a free election in venezuela is possible with maduro in power. In control of the army. In control of the police. In control of the gangs. Two or 3,000 cuban intelligence agents. We do not see that that is a possibility of a free election. Senator murphy guaido doesnt share that view. His preconditions for taking part in the electionnot require the removal of maduro. Its not clear even without maduro there it would be a free and fair election. I think this is just a prescription to get stuck in a downward spiral of american policy from which we cannot remove ourselves. We have to be more nimble, more creative, more open to solutions by which we could get to an election. Even with maduro there as a transition. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Abrams could i respond for a few seconds. We presented this framework for a democratic transition precisely to so what we would like to see happen. Within the framework, both sides in the National Assembly elect a Transitional Government. Each side has veto power. Guaido and maduro would not participate in the transition election. Both could run for president in a future free president ial leaks. We thought we were putting out and many, many countries have looked at this and said, this is a positive formula. And we showed the way to the lifting of u. S. Sanctions. I would say again, just under 60 countries support guaido. The notion we have done this alone and without international support, senator, is not accurate. Chairman risch thank you. Senator rubio. Senator rubio on that point, thank you both for being here. How many countries in latin america recognize guaido as the limit interim president . Mr. Abrams every country except cuba, argentina, mexico. Senator rubio nicaragua . Mr. Abrams sorry. Senator rubio we didnt pull guaido out of the air. The basis of our support for him is the legitimate interim and the basis for why all these other countries have also recognized him is because he is the democratically elected member of the National Assembly, hold a democratically elected members of the National Assembly have made the president of that assembly. That under the venezuelan constitution fills the role of president when there is a vacancy in that office. Is that not the reason why we recognize him . Mr. Abrams thats correct. We do not choose juan guaido. The constitution chose him. Senator rubio as interim president in the next free and fair election. Mr. Abrams yes. Senator rubio i also heard a comment earlier by one of my colleagues, senator paul who is no longer here, he said our policy of replacing maduro with guaido, that is not the policy of the United States. The policy of the United States is to try to promote well break away from program momentarily to fulfill our 40 plus year commitment to live coverage of the house. Members meeting in a pro forma session today. No votes are scheduled. Live to the floor of the u. S. House here on cspan. It states representatives. Any use of the closedcaptioned coverage of the house proceedings for political or commercial purposes is expressly prohibited by the u. S. House of representatives. ] the speaker the house will be in order. The prayer will be offered by our chaplain, father conroy. Chaplain conroy let us pray. God of heaven and earth, thank you for giving us another day. The nation awaits to report awakes to repoffers of rising coronavirus number, many in places once touted as being safe from the danger of spread. Have mercy on us. Help us to hear your call