Transcripts For CSPAN House Hearing On Small Business COVID-19 Pandemic 20240712

I want to make sure to note some important environment. Standing house and Committee Rules will continue to apply during the hearings. All members are reminded to adhere to the standing rules including the quorum. With that said im designated by the speaker the committee will operate in accordance with 965 under strict it guidance from the rules committee to respect the rights of all members who participate. House regulations require members to be visible throughout a video connection during the proceedings so please keep your cameras on. Also if you park dissipate in the meeting please exit this one and log back in later. If a member encounters a technical issue that prevents them from being rack ignites for their questioning i would move to the next available member of the same party and i will recognize that senator in the next appropriate timeslot provided they have returned. To do to members time being interrupted by technical issues i will recognize that senator at after meeting time with her issues have been resolved. During questioning her testimony while reserve time to adjust to the dash technical issues. I may need to provide time for the witness. Finally remember to remain muted until you are recognized to minimize background noise. In accordance with the rules from the h. R. 965 staff has been advised to mute participants only in the event there is then background noise. When they are recognize they must undo themselves on mute themselves at the appropriate time prevent their boring the outbreak of covid19 affected a significant the entire u. S. Economy for this crisis has hit small doses is especially her. Three out of four small as is his have been experiencing decreasing revenue since march and an estimated 7. 5 million Small Business is are at risk of permanent closure from this crisis. Members of this committee we have a responsibility to help american Small Businesses. So far about located over 669 none dollars in grants and loans through the paycheck Detection Program and it the program also known as idle the american grants program. The ppe and the idle program will pry it provide immediately relief for small distances from the shock caused by this pandemic. We cannot ignore the reality that the covid19 pandemic was much more devastating and extensive crisis but than many anticipated and downplaying the seriousness of covid19 and to rush to reopen ultimately exacerbating the dash we must be prepared with longtime solutions that would meet the nature of this crisis as we put look ridiculous in nation and find better days ahead. We can start by examining the policies in the aftermath of the Great Recession and the models moving forward. While we recognize devastating events for our nation we must also remember that back in 2008 the outlook for small diseases were uncertain. In response to the Great Recession we provided 1. 2 billion for small distances through the fda lending program. This unlocked tens of millions of dollars in guaranteed loans to Small Businesses that could not otherwise policies enacted then created a critical lifeline for thousands of Small Businesses who were closing their doors. We are celebrating entrepreneurship for the nations smallest and youngest. If money was well spent as small as this is where some of the largest showed growth and recovery specially minorities and women owned businesses who alone were responsible for 1. 8 million jobs from 2007 to 2012. The nations investment in entrepreneur ship. Off. United states had new businesses open since 2011 and are currently growing. Because of the economic from small employers after the Great Recession it is imperative for this community to explore those proposals and how we can modify them in the covid19 era. I also welcome any discussion or any new ideas brought to the table by members to adjust the challenges are Small Businesses are facing today. Whether its utilizing traditional fda programs are instituting innovative ideas it requires us to think out of the box but also come together in a bipartisan way to give relief to small employers. As Congress Works to reform a program i hope we continue to prioritize the smallest of Small Businesses minorityowned and women owned businesses. It felt like an insurmountable fight and again i want to thank thank for joining us and i yield to the Ranking Member for opening statements. Thank you madam chair or thank you for holding this hearing today. On this committee we know how important Small Businesses and startups and entrepreneurs are to the economy however one of the consequences of its Global Pandemic is that our main streets are in very real danger of longlasting damage or in the worst case permanent closure. Some have warned we could be in only the beginning of the worst wave of small as his bankruptcies and closure since the great depression. We must be proactive and effective in our attempts not only to sustain the recovery and expand the influence of americas Small Businesses and main streets all over the country. Recent research from universities such as harvard, the university of chicago, the university of illinois and others have found that some small as this is especially microenterprisers may be the most susceptible to permanent closure. We must Work Together and listen to those like our witnesses here today who know and appreciate that critical segment of our economy. As communities reopen we hope to find solutions that lead to fewer headlines indicating Small Businesses are closing and focus more on the recovery in which we are about to embark. I look forward to the testimony of all of our words is here today and our continued partnership on this committee and i think the chairwoman for working with me on our side of the aisle and making this the most Bipartisan Committee in congress and thats why we are so affect this in for example putting together the ppp program in trying to reform so many other things but i want to thank the chairwoman for her continue to cooperate should and i yield back. Thank you. Inc. You Ranking Member. You have been an example of how we need to do to our jobs for American People. Each witness will have live minister provide a statement in each Committee Member will have five minutes for questions. Please ensure that your microphone is on when you are speaking in you return to mute when finished. With adequate like to thank our witnesses for taking the time out of their busy schedules. Our first witness is the president of the small Investor Alliance. In his role he worked as for a healthy environment for small as this is and is strong and profitable market. Mr. Palmer served in the executive branch from 2002 to 2005 as a president ial appointee as assistant secretary for legislative affairs and secretary for trade legislation. He holds a history degree. Our second witness is amanda coined. Ms. Coins is owner of an awardwinning vegetarian restaurant in new york city on the Lower East Side in my district. The restaurant was the first vegetable restaurant in the city and a pioneer of the and this included being on the list of the 10 restaurants that changed america. She received two stars from the news york times and was recognized by years in a row. Welcome. Our third witness his doctor lisa cook. Dr. Burcher 16 is a professor of economics at the university of michigan are prior to Michigan State she was a senior economist on the president s counsel for economic advisers from 2011 to 2012 pishaw so works that they Economic Bureau for research and minneapolis new york philadelphia the Brookings Institution and the hoover institution. Welcome ms. Cook and now id like to turn it over to the Ranking Member mr. Chabot. Thank you again madam chairman their final witness is a fellow cincinnati in. Mr. Blackshaws ceo for centrifuges startup incubator created by Proctor Gamble and a lot of people referred to as kroger and western southern other entities in our Greater Cincinnati community previously served as global head of Digital Marketing social media at the Global Headquarters in switzerland. He recently served as chairman of the board of the National Council of Better Business bureaus and is now cheering you recently chartered supplychain and new commerce restart committee. He is a graduate of Harvard Business school and the university of california santa cruz. I recently had the pleasure of meeting with him via the on line platform at the Cincinnati Chamber of commerce and he was truly impressed or i was truly impressed with his forwardthinking ideas on the recovery. I hope he was impressed too. I know he will provide valuable insight to the committee and i look forward to hearing the witnesses here today and i yield back. Thank you mr. Chabot and thank you all for being here today. I would now like to begin by recognizing mr. Palmer for five minutes. Thank you to the committee for giving a chance to share the sbas view on how Small Business companies can create jobs for a long time. Im president of the smallbusiness Investor Alliance the trade association representing Small Business abductors. Sba regulated Venture Capital and private equity funds provide longterm capitol into american Small Business. For many but not all that and the ensuing government mandated shutdown. The economic disruption has expose amplified and intensified preexisting problem space by the nations Small Businesses. Its also created new ones. These implications affect vast numbers of small as is that the pain is not in lay spread by jogger for Industry Sectors or even. To make sure that the have matching benefits. Addressing the immediate needs for Small Businesses that also makes the future needs. Incentive normal stimulus spinning with his spending is to very, they can focused on the longterm to empower and amplify the private sector and provide outside job creations. And by full fully utilizing this program. Access to Patient Capital is accordant the Many Solutions to that challenges that we face. And that previously existed challenges, and accessing Patient Capital. It is particularly acute in low income areas break and more for equity capital. And only a couple of areas in the Country Living the rest of us behind. Largest disparities in the startup and growth activity. Underrepresentation by women and minorities in both funds, and Small Businesses accessing capital. And to feel small funds which provide smaller investors in smaller communities. A list of new problems as well. Massive unemployment, there are many Small Businesses. 22 percent of Small Businesses are now out of business that is by some estimates. The catalyst 32 percent of hispanic owned businesses facing up to 41 percent of black owned businesses lost. And a national catastrophe. The american spirit that strong. Small businesses will need to access Patient Capital. It is equity capital. Longterm debt and equity like debt is capital that can sustain the ups and downs and the starting of any an economy even we also need to remove unintentional barriers to minorities and women from forming sb i. T. Funds. The need to be smaller considering or parts of the country because all funds really are able to handle smaller markets. So the framework is a good one. But this experience is a very different experience from the last recession. Sba proposes a couple changes to the exist program, modifying it. We would ask congress authorized would removeat unintentional barriers to minorities and women entering the program while providing needed small dollar investments across the country. The sbic program should also be modified to enable sbics to provide more in the most patient and the most job creating capital equity. One the library of congress looked at the sbic program, Equity Investments but by Small Business Investment Companies commonly created over 400, sometimes over 500, new jobs per investment, and we need those jobs. Tools that provide patient equity and provide capital there currently appointed by geography. They should be available to all Small Businesses. And they are encouraging them to look for opportunities making investments into underserved communities. Finally, it would be very helpful if the offices of innovations, be fully staffed and have the technology that is to be fully effective. They been held back that from years and that theres an opportunity for us to do more. That would be longterm and investment with longterm benefits but i would also like to thank the committee for having oversight hearing last fall. Its probably an Oversight Community rated i had never seen like that in 25 years. Those very helpful. It is been transformative and positive. And its really turned around and doing great. Thank you for your oversight and thank you for this hearing and i look forward to answering questions. Thank you argued now i would like to recognize the next person. Please let me remind members you need to keep your cameras on. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me. My experience and paycheck protection program, other independent restaurants and my name is minute. Governor, Lower East Side of menton is buried the chairwoman, spin along front of it for Business Owners. And is my honor to be here today. Fine dining in new york, we started back in 2008. With just 18 seats pretty and quickly we grew our first location. Also owner of the leadership team. Nearly four politician, across the country frederick congressional district, organize for the first time in response to the enemy. We represent 500,000 restaurants. Dining establishments. [inaudible]. And how we use the ppe and what we need to do to drive it which is really your help. A week ago today, the First Time Since new york and the shutdown orders. Dramatically alter our menus. Number of our dishes are really not conducive to heat in the rain, the land in our community. [inaudible]. Is not really the most romantic location. I was unable to pay my employees during the shutdown. So many like unemployment and other jobs. Unclear when we could reopen again. So fight have the costs and the dining remains low, theres absolutely no way that my company can survive. Theres a larger issue. Going out to a restaurant, to be considered safe. And when the pandemic hit, i laid off all 35 employees. Six weeks ago, i rehired one person to get ready to reopen his art form. As of today ive only hired back six of my employees. And i dont see hiring others for the foreseeable future. Its only possible because the ppe. And it went to affect the only reason i can afford to reopen at all. Even if my doors are open, theres still 29 or more people count counting on this for the work. Some restaurants cannot access ppe because the banks took care of other customers first rejected their applications. Some cannot afford to make a mistake. They seem to run out in the not bridged for the time needed in order to Fund Operations needed. One think it would be enormously impactful for the Restaurant Industry, restaurant act. The chairwoman coast binder this bill for which im especially grateful. As have a more members of this committee. Independent restaurants generate 271 billion in direct and direct Economic Activity. Passing this bill would reduce the Unemployment Rate by 2. 4 percent. 85 percent independent restaurants have been able to close without that health. Lets help avoid this disaster. We need your help. My testimony about the ppe the significant changes that congressman in late spring. Into an 18 month problem for restaurants. The loan allowed me to reopen. His stuff we do allow me to stay open. Even if it is forgiven. It does not stand alone. Restaurant supports farmers, ranchers, vineyards, many more people. Imagine any trip to new york. Chicago or san francisco, charleston, washington dc. Without being able to visit the great restaurants that they are known for. Entertainment restaurants runs millions of tourists from all over the world. 2019, total spending on domestic and International Travelers into services in the United States was 279 billion pretty is more than double the amount that Fund Recreation retail. Thank you again for the opportunity to be here. And tisha the story of my independent restaurant with you. I sincerely hope to help. Thank you for the work you have been doing. Thank you. I would now like to recognize the next person for five minutes. Chairwoman, and breaking member, thank you for the opportunity to address the committee on Small Businesses on the topic of solutions for Small Business recovery. Since the epidemic and the resulting economic and financial crises are fully. As a result, small firms are in crisis quick action of congress has in some way, to lessen some of the pain associated with hispanic and reduced recession. Small businesses keep paying employees in the 670 billiondollar paycheck protection program. Pe. In the in Small Businesses was a critical thing for Small Businesses. Some are in good shape. 73 percent reported their financial help was good or stable. Nonetheless, the Financial Health of the Small Businesses, very greatly depending on the ethnicity of the owner. Compared and 27 percent of small white firms regarding they were at risk are in distress, 49 percent a small hispanic firms and 57 percent of small black barbs reported being at risk or distrust. Blacken hispanic firms, were modest prepared by this pandemic. According to the federal reserve, they are three times more likely to close relative to other firms due to a twomonth revenue shock. In the concentration of small minority or on firms in certain sectors makes them more vulnerable the wake of covid19. The sectors in which many small minority owned firms are overrepresented are a combination of conservatives in retail. Barely made it is estimated that 100,000 Small Businesses are 2 percent of Small Businesses that already closed. Im in june, these businesses, 140,000 about closed since marcd june. 35 percent are shocking and Retail Businesses listed have closed closed doors temporarily pretty 53 percent of restaurants close their doors permanently. Small business closures is also unevenly distributed. Africanamericans businesses reported being close, compared to 35 percent overall. And the only surveys providing Demographic Data on ppe, loan recipients, 35 percent or 45 percent of black and latino businesses were closed by the end of the year without more relief. Minority orange businesses were all also not able to access these loans. They have had restorative relationships over one third of Small Businesses reported saying reduced or deferred payments party in the most recent survey, majority of macroeconomists believe there will be a partial rebound in Economic Activity and then slow recovery rather than a vshaped shop recovery. The slower than anticipated recovery, and with the experience of ppe, a liturgist committee to consider what it might do in the short and long run to address the Small Business crisis. Now, i would support policy action that would modify ppe work alongside the enhanced Unemployment Insurance benefits under the cares act. The revolving mainstreet act, from senators proposes such a modification. This will provide grants to especially hardhit small firms pretty and cover fixed cost. In the employers use shortterm compensation arrangements are system such as that the employers avoid layoffs and instead would reduce hours by each employee firm. Employees within continue to receive an employment insurance on a prorated basis to compensate for reduced wages. In a matter what the indication, demographically this should be collected at the loan or Grant Application fade in any future modified ppe efforts. Not just on the back end of the program. Data was supposed to be that the most vulnerable firms would be prioritized. Not only should they be current and additional many to be targeted at these firms. Policymakers should continue in the long run, Distribution Channels for aid in the future they could provide small firms directly tha. Most importantly, the human and technological that the f be a due process and implement swiftly and efficiently, such a program is the ppe should be moving along significantly. The longstanding importance, to middleclass, and the contributions to the economy overall, this Capacity Building shouldve happened long ago. At this point, financial crisis and sba will need to be better prepared to meet these challenges. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I just have one or message. And that is the best way to help Small Business owners rising this very important world and uncertainty. Start ups. Domain ivy league entrepreneurs. The referring to the next generation taking on big unsolved challenges in every sector of our society and turning them on their heads. And in many of the start of founders are women and minorities, growing percentage. They are coming from the midwest. We are living in an age of an ending, with a structure going to become more common. In some ambiguous and it requires leadership precisely with the start mindset. To be clear, the urgent needs as you have heard the Small Business owners need help right now. Access to capital and policies, all critical and necessary but we also to look beyond the present to a future that is going to be even more demanding on the moment that we are living on today and to do so, with urgency. Now many of us talk about reselling her of stealing, neither my view, we need startups. Asada minute set five either rapid prototyping, concentration. Learn fast. If data, and how to exploit it. Its very digital. I think startups should be a national priority. But perhaps by the fda involving corporations, universities and startup systems. Now woodley going to look like. First it is showing Small Business owners how they can apply started thinking, technologies to their own ventures. For example, we hosted the program collector in partnership with j. P. Morgan chase over one weekend. Several dozen minority led businesses. We give mentors and show them how to leverage technology. Broaden google rated and i think we should be doing this constantly. Every weekend in fact. And what is known as micro can credentialing aimed at urban and rural areas. The university of ohio for example is muscle that is tight credit taking them outside of the tower bringing them into the community with different types of credentialing focusing on new business skills. And in finance marketing and accounting. Think we need a lot more of that. And we need to embrace a university to do that. I think learning from the additional natives. You have grown up digital. And at summer virtual academy. His way over prescribed. In the high school or college. Theyre addressing challenges to the covid19, social justice, and we are challenging them to show ways and they played that they brought radically, as a part of a better future. Thirdly, what you think about, mobilizing and platforming Small Business services. Dont shoot the messenger. But as an hour worth of testimony, your digital absent website, you name it. I think the sba in particular needs at digital startup. I would encourage you to think about why cant garrett create an open innovation platform. To outsource easier for Small Businesses. Its not just about money, its about time and simplicity. So why not take greater advantages of microsoft, amazon. To be facebook, for example had more than 3 billion users including tens of millions of Small Business users. And theres a lot of deeper issues on that im not going to get into here. Why not invite them to cope develop the next generation of for Small Business services as startups. Not annette campaign but an fda and steroids. That would be a game changer overnight. My final observation is that i think that the little distinction between the tech startup in a momandpop Small Business. Their both based on a problem that needs to be solved. In the desire to take a shot rated and whether we are talking about skills and technology and the smalltown service. Were talking about the same thing. Businesses built on the ingenuity and passion and persistence of people some of that one to make a Company Better in the country better by putting a better way. Thus it the entrepreneurialism. Lets startups america. Thank you. Thank you. I now recognize myself for five minutes. Congress responded to the Great Recession by making a couple of changes to the fda loan programs including a guarantee on loans and reducing results. This congress waits, proposals for Small Businesses. Would you recommending think those changes to the lending programs. Right now Going Forward. I would because it has to be encouraged. But i would also that the Digital Transformation is something that i was for money. When i was at the white house and in 2011 and 2012, i think this is absolutely given. Of this crisis and this is got to be matched with the seed of Digital Infrastructure. Capacity building at fda. Yes. This is one of the things that we need to keep in mind essentially the integration and they need the budget. Because they take resources. As the virus continues to spread in our country, we have seen states once reopen the restaurants and bars, are now shutting them down again. How has the multiple closures affected the industrys. Managed chairwoman. Multiple closures part of the restaurants. We lose our customers we loose our hope. They will finish off a number of independent restaurants. Thank you. And what about the proposal targeted in circumstances like once you have a long road to recovery. For shut down. Why does the fda current Economic Relief program in hospital talent he industry need. In one targeted relief necessary read. Hospitality industry has issues. We depend on gatherings of a lot of people in a small space that generates revenue for it is a lot of people not mms akamai will not be able to continue to pay for my staff. I cannot take on any more debt with any of these other programs. And specifically work for the Restaurant Industry. [inaudible]. Thank you, the initial period of time. To have all of the questions that we need to add. What we have seen so far. A relief for Small Businesses. The focusing on financing. Specifically with these programs. I our local economy tends to slowly reopen and recover. Small businesses, what will they need in terms of long term capital and the role of the Small Business administration for the sba see times. For providing information. I think amanda there, do pretty well putting a lot of businesses, they are up to their eyeballs in debt. And they are really going to look for Patient Capital. They need something that is not going to cause the banks that are already in forbearance calling in on the loans. To provide capital. Any other equity or equity like capital. Theres some tools are existing in the ferc platform. The very patient we can draw alone the whole payments for five years. And you pay after that. Its an improvement tool right now. So a lot of plans cant use it. Opening up tools like that would be very helpful the recovery of businesses and as you add more to offer that, it will be even more beneficial. Thank you my time has expired. Thank you and ill begin wi with, you testified before the Committee Many times pretty we appreciate you being here. How important is it that we evaluate current Government Programs to reduce duplication in order to ensure that her programs are the most effective that they can be. I think it is critical point and i think right now congress at the time, to really focus. And when the cares act was created, the ppe was a lifesaver. Its a Brilliant Program and thank you for doing it. It certainly problems with her because it was written at the front end of economic tornado getting it. I have the time to really look at it make sure that its effective and not duplicative. In the really adjusting to the Different Energy sectors and geography and different types of capital. So think it is necessary. Thank you. How can the Nitro Program that you mentioned serve as an example for future efforts and was there anything that could have been improved any representations that you would make to us. Thank you for the question. My first right is that we treated episodically. Looking back, we can do that. I want everybody here to think about it and hearing right now. The ability to conduct Skilled Services and intimacy in the form of like any type of training. As one of exponentially so sleazy to parachute in an expert who can help with Small Business owners to pick up a critical skill. Theyre very critical foundational entry digital capabilities that even the ice cream shop needs to understand it to be competitive in the marketplace today. I think the opportunity, like how to be skillets. I think its a big opportunity that more companies to subsidize the efforts and the government to pay for it. I think there is a winwin for everyone. But we can bring this on mind set, digital kind of agility and then definitely leverage the power of Virtual Party did not to take care away from the offline. Still power their freedom that we can do a lot of critical needs really fast. Thank you very much. In your testimony you discuss up people still feel unsafe going restaurants. The same could be said for other industries as well such as tourism. What can we do to help people to feel a sense of safety and security can. So that the restaurant and others will be moving in the right direction. Unfortunately im not sure that we can get anybody to feel safe until we get a vaccine. I think thats the reality. In the meantime, not forcing restaurants to have an open up click there and they feel comfortable with. They cannot congregate too many people month space. We have to make people feel safer it is like job at the restaurant, to make when customers feel safe. In my employees so that everybody can come in and dine. Phil relax which is what they should do in a restaurant. I can do that, from looking at my bottom line, im done. You felt that we were likely to experience a slower recovery. If you had one thing that you could change, what would it be. I would echo the sentiments of amanda collins. There has to be attention paid to covid19 first. Theres nothing else. I had to choose one thing. That we would devise a relief. Two businesses in the American People that had to do with addressing the healthcare crisis. I think i have time to squeeze in one more question. Mr. Buckshot back to you again. Were obviously both in the midwest here. And you mentioned the midwest. Most specifically, is encouraging startups and are part of the country in the midwest released prior to the covid19 crisis. And how can we continue to fuel the start of culture that we havent seen. I think it is critical, the entries of the entrepreneurs. Native californians who dont want to disparage my number state. But there is a cost im sure that gets in the way of the independence to jump in early. To perhaps learn. And i located my partner from cincinnati, the burn rate. I think the equality or quality of life. And its a wonderful synergy especially in the Greater Cincinnati but also Northern Kentucky with a Large Company are very open. In a very humble way. Lets look for startups. They can they configure a big big challenges and sometimes we can figure out. More the mid west the nicene of the locations. I think those are just a few of the factors that really play out pretty think wherever you are, and supporting the ecosystem, it is critical. Those formulas can work. Let me just unmute it. Thank you very much metta german. I want to the Ranking Member for convening this particular hearing. I think its extremely forward looking topic. A has to be dealt with. And we been able to deal with a major topic which is the pandemic. I apologize for just getting on. A recently in of the democratic caucuses got underway. Its been an interesting discussion find i would reserve time to im not deliberately hard and deliberately redundant what i would like to talk about. I would welcome the discussion from others. [silence]. Is your microphone on. From minnesota, recognized for five minutes. [silence]. You need to unmute. [silence]. I think there are technical difficulties read. [background sounds]. [silence]. The next person is recognized for five minutes. Can yall hear me. Yes. I appreciate you all. I would like to know for mr. Palmer, and testimony mentioned up to 22 percent have failed due to the covid19 but that number by an estimated 50 percent of black and Small Businesses. That is a huge disparity. In the troubles me greatly. [background sounds]. I worked in and around my community. And im concerned about that. I think we will rectify the problem. A. Is a real problem. Once we sort of get the economy stabilized, foundational us countability. I will set them aside. I think we really need to look at the equity capital. Any brown the Washington Post last week, roundabout capital. Nichols the rocket fuel for job creation. In the hands of the black entrepreneurs. I i think we need to provide more funds. That more women Fund Managers and lack Fund Managers. And what we can form funds by broadening out that hoops. And amplified in the with a really great jobs and ownership of businesses. But we have to be deliberate about the real barriers. Most black entrepreneurs have just left capital. In sort of capital that in black orchid for no versus why come about 136. That is a barrier. So they need external capital. In more small winter months. And more small funds brother country not just concentrated in the three areas where they spend most of it now. And even more than a regional and, would be very beneficial no. What had a lot of times here is funds are available. But nobody knows how to get to us. Yet the Good Old Boy Network but there may be ways to educate as well. But as you see huge duplication and i dont see anything getting done. Adjusting the people in these organizations, not saying getting anything done. I think there have been studies done that a lot of black entrepreneurs do not get loans because they dont ask for them. They think they will be turned down. They dont the connection in the community or in that region. I think the Financial Providers for the funds in banks and others, need to do a far better job of doing it outrage and folks know how to access the capital. Because it is there in many cases. Due to increase access. I think the private sector is the driver for it. Nonprofits, there a lot of them that can be facilitators and educators and provide the rules. Mr. Blackshaw, an example of that is frustrating goes. There entrepreneurs about how to access the capital. Net asked of the right kinds of the right amount. Be prepared for it. Ultimately we need tax policy and regulatory policy that really encourages and does not create barriers to access. We can see both of them looked working together. I dig your enthusiasm for it never been to new york before. Im not even from the part of tennessee but i was wondering about the Ripple Effect that will occur in our communities with the restaurant industries. What can we do to intimate or limit these effects. Will first off, youre invited to my restaurant anytime during my restaurant. It is a vegetarian restaurant. But it is delicious. Okay if you say so. s of the best thing you can do sexual support restaurant act. Hope that money back into my restaurant and then i can put it back into the economy. And i can support my suppliers again. I really need to help them get back up on their feet and the only way i can do that if i have the money to spend on them. How much more time go i have. Well, i yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you so much. Im glad that my wife is not here to see you. She saw the wonderful outfits you are wearing them a i would have to be looking for that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you maam. My time has expired. Mr. Palmer. Im so glad that youre going to express how important ftse is in him much more potential and has to address are covid19 economic crisis. Insisting nearly 2 million jobs in this program operates is extremely low to taxpayers even though there is a guarantee of the private investors capital. Before that guarantee is even impacted read in this program operates at zero sensitives. The investing in their capital. [inaudible]. Still awaits further action incentives what made this program last in the recovery now the investing in the ftse is more effective is the economy recovers from the covid19 pandemic. Thank you very much for that question. And for your support and making that correction that will allow more thanks for capital. I will mention that there couple of reasons why the Program Works prefers it works because it passes all of the private sector requirements and second it worked before that because the Public Policy purpose. The program really for the taxpayer in the second loss physician. And think that makes it work. I really think right now, one of the things that is coming out. We have the enemy police i have massive social unrest and awakening to some problems that existed before. We need more smaller funds. And of the many personal funds serving minority communities credit and have the banks are very interested in doing that now. So we want to take away any barriers that would be in place. In my limited the ability for the Capital Providers to get capital worries clearly need to departed and recreate those jobs and have been lost read and restart of those businesses that may be softened at the moment. And re empower entrepreneurs for that is what we do. And your legislation is a critical part of that so thank you very much for your support. Think is much. Doctor cook. People of color has suffered disproportionately in health and Economic Impacts during the covid19 pandemic. As you mentioned Business Owners of color are at higher risk for permanent closure. Which makes it harder to collect Economic Data on the participants. And especially in full for example at fda, failed to collect any racial Demographic Data for many 4 percent of nearly 500,000 ppe loans under 150,000. The remaining company. They only collected on 6 percent of the businesses that actually got those loans. And given californias diverse population. Unacceptable. One thing that i know, these businesses need help. Something to introduce legislation for the Community Advantage loan programs. Which provides access to affordable capital to underserved markets and under this legislation. On by minority women and veterans and also provide some technical assistance. Can you talk about the roles of the program without programs designed to reach underserved Small Businesses how they should play in our longterm recovery. It is been the path to the middle class. Its been about 12. And certainly for minority businesses given the losses they suffered, minority summary, during the Great Recession, this would go slowly to close the racial wealth gap. To both the intimate and the well, its critical, the intention that would be given to it would be well worth it. And why is it so important pretty. Im sorry, but i did not hear the last part. It. Why is the information so important pretty. Because as i mentioned in my remarks, the black and hispanic businesses especially were already vulnerable. So if you really want to make sure that the recovery is even, they should be targeted. You all are saying they should be prioritized and for good reason. So i think if there is any additional relief, it should go to Small Businesses to make sure to target these businesses. The Demographic Data. Recognizing the gentleman from minnesota. Thank you martin chairwoman. And Ranking Member greatest mr. Blackshaw, anything we most effectively have the startup skills as you mentioned in your testimony to rule and america. Thank you for the question. Clearly, for the first thing is that i think we need to continue to take a closer look at Broadband Access in the rural districts. And i think that anything we can do to kind of equalize access. I think is really important. The state of ohio has been concerted effort in that. I think it is good for any type of star a player. Theres no question that digitalization pervades everything. So i think getting that work, is absolutely critical. I think the great things about what were all experimenting with right now, is that Digital Infrastructure in place, is infinite access to experts, virtual mentoring, you name it. And challenge us to think about this. The new environment. And what were doing right now, a completely different model of access. Even in role communities where i think, the one opportunity in certain rural districts, getting Everything Fresh pretty good not burdened by how technology is used in basically putting up whole new broadband pipe. Part of inventing almost a start up with a clean sheet of paper. Very bullish about the opportunity there. It clearly there is investment on Technology Required and obviously from commonwealth as well. One of the biggest issues that have been exposed in this pandemic is limited access to broadband. In Rural America. Is it possible, just how bad it is for the very first time. When it comes to these airings and the many wonderful ideas about how we can help businesses and help them mobilize and reach platforms. It still, and Rural America, they are not considered. I think it is high time to actually take that step forward. We need to take steps to help these Rural Businesses. And its cute mentioned. Volatile and ambiguous world. It is critically important. I would you say in your words mr. Blackshaw, definitely Work Together to bring back the startups skills to Rural America. The Digital Divide prayed in the effects of the Digital Divide. We have schoolchildren in Rural America where the parents have to drive them to hotspot so they can download their homework. That is unacceptable. We also know that the broadband is going to help keep our role schoolchildren competitive. In the hospitals open. And its going to be their economy. People for the quality of life. And i think we have to and i think it is time now to invest in Rural American broadband to bring those startup skills to everyone including not only rural minnesota but Rural America. Would you agree with that. Not only that, but im kind enough to happen anyway any way. They it is critically important. In the opportunity and the upside, payouts will be massive if we make that effort. Yes, that is an investment the needs to happen. And madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman from pennsylvania. You need to to run mute. Thank you madam chair. Many of my constituents are Restaurant Owners. The clearly surviving coming from the city were maybe half of the population are minorities. Im interested in a solution that can help many as possible. Minorities make up for 40 percent of the overall resource workers. Simply more minority men than any other industry. When three for Restaurant Owners come from a minority background. Can you tell me why you think the restaurants i think it is more beneficial. For the box because both of those are around and they operate willingly on a very slim market. We have a ton of money putting back into the economy. And i think that at this moment, to take on more debt is unfair. So the restaurant act allows the two received money without that party and put it back into the economy. That is why it is the best program for restaurants at this moment. With the Technology Partners in the initiative of the Pennsylvania Department of commerce, suggested on how the investments, the business have a low Interest Rate while the private investors offered negotiated much higher Interest Rate for portion. And ted they are fully repaid on this portion of the investment. With your consent to receive the money back. This means the private sector often wait years with any returns being seen pretty can you give me your reaction. I dont know the full details but eventually working with partners to fill and see the program more broadly across the country. The private, the drive these things do demand a certain rate of return. We can make sure that whatever products we are offering, actually passes the market and drive that private capital to them. To make sure that the capital is there. Because of thought, they just wont do it. But i on the other specific structures him i would have to work with you and your staff on it. I think that the Benjamin Franklin funds and a model for lots of the states. We would love to make this program more flexible to serve more funds like that. Any reaction a cook. I would say that anything that pushes private investors to invest in the africanamerican entrepreneurs in particular is well worth it. Only 1 percent American American founders received Venture Capital funding. So anything that will increase that, a kind of private capital i think would be well worth it. Real quick. California massachusetts and new york, three states pretty 70 percent of capital investments, from 2014 2018. The same period of time, less than 5 percent of the total capital. What suggestions would you have for pennsylvania. I would suggest just from pennsylvania but as a nurse person occasion a Venture Capital. His reimagined in an equity platform. When they would be able to do more on investing, theyre all over the country much smaller cities. And in those read concentrated areas. We can do that in a way that is protective that taxpayers. Would face a lot of the problem. I think that is one of the things that we can do. You have lots of that doctor cooper. I would say that one of the things that contracts capital to areas like yours, like mine in michigan. And like blackshaws in ohio. We need to invest in the new infrastructure. I hate to keep going back to this but i work on the economic innovation. But the Digital Divide between rural and urban for example, are from other places in the country. Its critical. Were not going to be competitive economy if we dont do this. It has to be made and be made quickly. You. North carolina gentlemen for five minutes. Thank you pretty thank you for the hearing and thinking to the witnesses for lending your expertise read i appreciate the interesting discussion about new longterm solutions. Some of the potentially extensive that i hope to express greatly one beneficial policy changes we can make right away to an existing program. So for Small Businesses remain standing was his crisis is over. To receive Committee Heard from becky associated administrator on the implementation of the Economic Injury disaster loan programs. In the course of the pandemic pretty to be frank, i believe the sba art limiting the size of idle most of hundred and 50000. Have left a great deal to be desired. This decision not only sorely disappointed the expectations of businesses helping me to receive really, it was and how comprehensively bad credit decision. After all, the business and intrinsic circumstances wanted to Million Dollar loans, to extend the 150,000 loan is a futile act guarantees not only failures of business but inadequate notice well. And then negatively impacts u. S. Taxpayers. Unfortunately, it is up to congress to fix fdas era. And when reflecting upon her hearing and talking to constituents, was to allow idle borrowers to go back a second title or modify the loan balance to receive higher amounts. The idea would be in the business received and i know fort bliss in the appropriate enough, could receive a supplemental loan for the difference between the appropriate amount according to fda underwriting standards, and the amount previously loaned under the misguided 150,000dollar limitations rated for example, if they qualify for a Million Dollars, to help the weather this crisis will only receive 150,000. Congress would allow the business to reapply for a second ei dl and work of 850,000. To restore constituent faith in our relief efforts than those of sba, its important, i cement that we provide them the relief that was promised to them in the front end. Into the panel. Mr. Palmer, we have had good conversations. If always supported and open about common sense solutions. Do you think this idea of allowing businesses effectively to double deck on et il. What help more businesses whether the shortterm storm. Im not sure but i would call it double dipping. Think theres a cabinet think theres an obligation for the agency to follow the letters of the law read by the legislative branch. Are the things, i think it is clear expectations and Small Businesses. If they were dedicating their limited time and resources to access the amount of the loss specifically allowed. The naked really could access it. Its not really fair to them. And this is going on longer than expected so allowing people to go back and get the capital they need knowing the damages that they have is perfectly reasonable to me. Thank you. Its simply going back and allowing them to have what was intended in the first instance. Your preference but do you know any additional restaurants to take advantage of go back and get the full amount or closer to it depending on its own circumstances that would be a welcome opportunity for some. I cannot speak for all restaurants i certainly know that no restaurant i know at the moment would be taking on more debt its a situation that is unfortunate. Stomach do you think if they had a choice between additional indebtedness that would allow them the operating capital to continue or not receiving any benefit they would prefer and like to have that opportunity . That is a tough choice. I am not sure. Yes, think most restaurant tears would like to stay open. But i also know it seems impossible for them to work with that debt hanging over your head. Seems like we might not ever be able to open up full capacity again. Thank you i think ultimately that choice in debt is going be handing over somebodys head. Thank you madame chairman my time has expired. The gentlemans time has expired and now we recognize mr. Snyder from illinois. Thank you at madame chairwoman britta want to thank you in the Ranking Member for having this hearing and the witnesses for sharing your perspectives today i know this is a difficult situation for everybody, for anyone going through the Health Crisis who has lost somebody it is unfathomable. And the impact it is having on her system and particularly i think its upwards of 75 businesses that have a negative impact with the revenues on their business none more so than what you talk about in the Restaurant Industry. They are so much a part of the neighborhoods and communities that we all live in. They are struggling and im happy to be at cosponsor of the restaurant act time understand how important that is. I will also show the thought with mr. Bishop, and mr. Palmer thank you for saying it is not double dipping. The law said these businesses had an opportunity to get loans up to 2,000,000. 150000 decision and i often use the analogy if you build a bridge halfway across the river you may feel good for a while but you will still get wet and not make it to the other side. We have got to provide a bridge for our economy. It is made up of businesses and the workers in those businesses would got to be doing everything we can to help them. What youre saying is i cant think and if any small restaurant thats on the position to take on more debt, they are just trying to barely hang on or that stakeout service, delivery service, if theyre able to open. And i love the acronym bucher voluntarily attend complexity new might add chaos into it right now. And ambiguity. It is a tough time and having been in business i understand that. To make an eight week solution for an 18 month problem is one of our challenges. So maybe ill turn to the two Business Owners, looking forward to this uncertainty what can congress do to help give some stability, some confidence to help you make the hard choices to risk capital, to risk your employees future to try to make it to the other side . First of all thank you so much for importing the restaurant act we are grateful for that. Not to sound like a broken record, but the best thing congress can do is support the restaurant acts. That is the only way that i know and other restaurants note we can open up safely we dont have to but too many people in her dining room at once, we can keep our employees safe and we can keep our customers safe. You have a different type of business would you suggest . I think Anything Congress can do to recognize and reward credential and innovation this environment is critically important. Some of that his eyes wide open to what is already happening. Think a lot of the answers are out there we need to smartly grasp the ideas that are taking place in a lesserknown area and turn it into a Big National Idea think thats what i love about Digital Natives whether we like ticktock or instagram or not they are brilliant at finding sources of inspiration across the world and scaling it. Think we have this golden opportunity to find those programs those initiatives, the services to turn them into big opportunities so congress complained a key role in shining a light on that reinventing the platforms is so important. Its not out to say the fda side is improving each year we have gone from a hockey stick on how we zoom so the expectations are so much higher and how do we bring out a clean sheet of paper on how services are delivered high you apply for loans online its all doable and think lot of these big tech players will gladly coexist there looking for opportunities to show goodwill there also genuinely concerned about the issues and i think congress can really make a lot of this outcome is real. Thank you at my last few seconds i like the idea of the start up mentality we need to create that startup and the challenges we chase us not just a hockey stick but its on a trampling the rate of change is so dynamic and so fast the government has to keep up in fact we need to make sure the sbas keeping up look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee i think everyone i know how hard it is hang in there keep working together will get through this crisis. My time has expired i yield back. Gentlemens time has expired fleet recognize the gentle lady from pennsylvania princeton mecca hi i hope you can hear me. I would also like to echo my appreciation to the panelist and the committee. I know how difficult it is in the best of times to be an entrepreneur and i cannot imagine how hard it is now. My question is a question because i am trying to be as thoughtful as i can be on behalf of the people i represent and so my first question is regarding the restaurant shortly after this call i will be going back with the legislators trying to figure out what bills to get behind and what bills not to get behind so possibly is the most likely person. Many, many, many businesses have the situation you have right now we are taking the ppe loans you may not be able to use it and open on time you may or may not have to go in and out of operating your business over this period of time. My Community Just barely opened and it may be closing back again businesses like live venue, live theater or just acute few of those things that may need the help as the restaurant they may not have quite the hours the Restaurant Industry has. Why does the industry need help different than any other company . And why wouldnt it be more appropriate to be able to have triggered mechanisms may be for Certain Industries may be certain reasons or zip codes as we come in and out of this problem why would be better be served by something that is working and tweaking it for everyone rather than one industry . Thank you so much for the western congresswoman. Ppp even if it was extended is still just a bridge is not a longterm solution for us the Restaurant Industry is completely reliant on social gatherings to generate revenue which is why the pandemic and Public Health shutdowns more than any other business unlike airlines are big retailers, independent restaurants cannot have access to debt for Capital Markets as a result independent restaurants is a perfect storm that will force more than 85 of them to close without intervention. That would be disastrous for our nation. Roughly 500,000 independent restaurants on over 11 million employees that they employ. Stomach wouldnt you agree that Something Like live music or live theater or really almost anything live isnt just as dire straits is your industry is . I am not advocating against any other industry receiving money. But i do think we have less access to capital. In particular independent restaurants. Stomach and in a situation where you would be able to evolve the ppp loan to be as it is currently, if you use it a certain way it is not alone it is a grant with forgiveness. Why wouldnt we do the same and have multiple times was the representative i believe bishop was talking about that genuinely in this case ppp gave multiple opportunities to Access Capital is that not the case for it could be converted to a grant, would that not satisfy the Restaurant Industry and other industries . I cannot speak on behalf of other industries unfortunately. But i think for restaurants, part of the ppp is getting employees back on the payroll. That is very hard for an 18 month problem or we have employees come on and i dont want to put employees back on my payroll and take them off again bread rather slowly build up to a time or we can get fully up and writing. So will appreciate that i really dont put you on the spot but just trying to noodle over what the opportunities are. In the 39 seconds i have just any other panels have anything to add or offer to that question . I would add something. You are right restaurants are taking a hit in the chin they are a massive employer. There are other businesses that are put together staging or lighting have really taken it on the chin. So tailoring ppp now that we have time to be thoughtful and deliberate on how to structure these things, makes some sense i know nothing about the restaurant act but we can be deliberate on how we defined it but weak they can use it for, make it a deductible expense or permanent expense under ppp to make your business safe. There are lots of things we can do. Are some of these other Grant Programs have it where there are no payments for the first two years. Quotes still alone but there is no payments for the first two years. The treasury has a ten basis points you could do the loan for short period of time. [inaudible] and gives us businesses a chance to recover that are currently being shut down. There are ways we can look at this we have time but not a ton of it. I yield back. So the gentle lady from minnesota is recognized. Thank you so much madame chairwoman. Doctor cook i want to make a quick comment on your point related to the healthcare crisis, the public Health Crisis that we are in here today. My point from day one has been that if we handle the public Health Crisis side of this well the economic crisis will take care of itself. I just want to say i heard you in your testimony and your q a about how critical it is that even though we are on the Health Committee on Small Business that the Congress Continues to focus on coming up with a more robust strategy as it relates to how we handle the healthcare crisis of covid19. Ms. Cohen, i also wanted to safe ui am a strong supporter of the restaurant act. I am on represent a bloom and howards bill paired my only regret is i did not offer the bill first. Thank you for your advocacy of that bill. I did however introduce a bill that the chairwoman is kind enough to also become an original on, that would allow folks who have seen a 50 reduction in revenue as a result of covid19 as well as had a 100 or fewer employees to come back and get a second forgivable loan. Can you tell me how you think about a bill like that which obviously is less industry specific versus the restaurant act only compared contrast about those two actions of the part of the congress. Thank you so much for sponsoring the bill, our bill. I think that is actually the restaurant acts takes care of more of our needs and it allows us to get back up on our feet and putting our money into payroll is incredibly important i would see it all that into place but it would also really, really like tables to open my business and put money back into the economy. Thank you so much for that. A quick followup for you i know as we reopen here in minnesota many of my Restaurant Owners, the independent owners have asked to undertake Safety Measures to obviously keep customers more safe and limit the spread of covid19. I am hearing from then even though they serve far fewer customers they are required to put in place higher Staffing Levels to open those doors. What can congress and the sba do to lower those burdens at the same time ensuring your employees and customers remain safe . Im not sure what more that can be done. We have more people employed certainly i have someone who monitors the bathroom, we do not have Dining Services that we do have guests that come in i dont normally have a bathroom attendant in my restaurant. So im not sure what more can actually be done we can specifically use for things like ppe or hiring those extra people and all of the extra cleaning. So thank you so much i really appreciate your advocacy on the part of independent restaurant and finally mr. Palmer very quickly, you think Certain Industries moving forward will face unique posts covid19 and this recovery phase, any thoughts you have specifically on what congress can do to help us recover . So absolutely therell be different variations in hospitality and Event Industries and those that have longterm planning. Right now we just had have any idea what things will look like two months from now let alone a year from now. We need to have capital is much Congress Really needs to revisit our policies as a right to manufacturing and domestic production. One thing that came clear out of this is her inability to create ppp and other Critical Infrastructure the fact you cant get a lysol disinfectant wipes in a supermarket five months later because we dont have the chemicals or whatever is causing the shortages is crazy. Think we need to address our Access Capital and make sure its a hospitable place. So thank you. And with the supply Chain Congress of congress and who thought that would be a sexy topic. [laughter] with that, congresswoman yield back. So the gentle lady yields back and we will hear from maryland have any questions . I do. And hope everyone can hear me, thank you for returning back to me, madam chair. I just have a couple which to me are significant and maybe even poignant. It was my pleasure to serve on this committee for ten years during my first dent in congress before i decided i would voluntarily leave and go to Something Else in life. One of the things its interesting about that is much has changed that much still remains the same respect to the topical areas we are dealing with, madam chair. Again, as i said earlier this notion of Lasting Solutions is a key phrase because the question becomes what happens to the Small Businesses of america . Lasting solutions are going to require ingenuity and creativity. But also access to capital. That was the Major Driving force to hearings like this in 1989 and throughout the 90s, madam chair, it is still a driving issue. Think about mci cs was recreated congress in 1958 a think about all the other initiatives i was very interested in hearing the phraseology that we need that on steroids because we really do and we always have needed that. There are some other things i would think observationally we might want to consider as we go down the road on this topic in future hearings. One of which is and Esther Palmer i appreciate your commentary and your information. I would slightly disagree with you on one matter. You said minority businesses in many instances were not applying for some of the structured loans and other programs out there because they did not always have the knowledge. I would suggest to you that many have not applied because they know they will get turned down as they have been turned down repeatedly over and over and over again. So my argument is we have to be deliberate in terms of what we do Going Forward that we need a deliberate tax policy, a deliberate bank policy had deliberate policy and find a way to create small Venture Capital that someone said earlier its absolute crucial. Its in domain of congress itself. And we got to look at some of the other smaller things like woefully burned burdened bond requirements. The Little Things that create and push businesses sometimes to the edge. So i am looking forward too, men chair, this discussion, continuing and going on. Appreciate your leadership and the leadership of the Ranking Member on this. Its something that is fascinated me for a long time and watching this unfold for the past 3132 years since i first took an oath of office it is perplexing how this issue is not only vexing but is repeating itself over and over again. So there is a lot of work to do in this area, then notion about looking at urban versus Rural Businesses is important also. Whether were talking about minority owned women owned businesses there are a lot of niches here that we have the ability under your leadership to call together and put forward a policy that many of our colleagues in the house would appreciate so again madame chair thank you very, very much for your leadership. I will yield back. Thank you so much, thank you for your contributions and fighting for fairness especially civil rights, criminal justice reform. But how do we contribute to make an economy that is just for everyone in this country. Do you have any other questions . Madame chair do not this has been a very interesting hearing. The witnesses did a great job i learned a lot and hopefully will put some of this into action. Thank you for holding this. So thank you. Let me just say, to all of the panelists thank you for your contributions shedding light into what is happening and put together an agenda that really reflects the unprecedented advice that we are witnessing. People love to say that Small Businesses are the backbone of america, a Small Business is the energy that fuels our economy. This is a time that we have shown they need help otherwise a lot of them will close their doors forever. Doctor cook i am going to take the opportunity here in my Closing Remarks to ask you a question. There are two issues i want to raise. One was raised by mr. Bishop because the idle Program Provides for loans of up to 2 million. However the Administration Never expected the unprecedented numbers of application rather than coming back to all to ask for increase in funding we are working on Bipartisan Legislation that we will address this issue. Doctor cook, right now, the pipeline regarding the ppp i would like to see that 50 of that money be carved out for minority businesses. One of the issues we are confronting is we do not know how well the ppp is working because the date it was not provided to us until last friday at midnight. Not only that but by going through the data we are finding a lot of errors. So how do you assess the possibility of those setting aside 50 so nation based lenders to make those loans for his vic what impact would that have . I think that would be critical. Think it would be critical for several reasons, they were at the back of the line for many reasons that was being outlined but also because of these historical relationships because they were talking about the systemic issues that have not yet been addressed. So 75 or 50 would be extremely useful 30 think the other thing that is being missed here and im sorry did not say it earlier is the micro enterprises they are where innovation comes from. There also being left. We could have a permanent on Economic Growth if we are not attending to those who do not yet have relationships. I think for minorities, for the smallest businesses, we really have to do more they should be granted based. There are some uncertain scenes that ms. Cohen is talking about they do not have the capacity to figure all of this stuff out we should not put that burden on them. Micro lenders provide for those businesses. We want to get them a part of the Mission Based me again thank all of the witnesses for your participation in your working together as a committee to help. Thank our country Small Business owners during this unprecedented type heard i ask unanimous consent for mid statement without objection so cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, in the vence. And events. You can watch cspan online. Be part of the national cspansion through daily washington journal program. Cspan, created as a public service, and brought to you today by your television provider. Up, aubrey shines, chair of the conservative clergy of color, well talk about Race Relations in the United States. Also, abc news correspondent Jonathan Karl on his