This hearing will look at a range of violent antigovernment this aint about politics here. This is something that happens on the political spectrum that involves violence, threatening institutions, and we have got to look at it, and that is what we are doing today. So these threats range from decentralized and leaderless it is incredibly irrelevant to me which groups we look at so long that we are looking at the principal ones that threaten peoples lives. Some of these extremist movements stream from ideologies that are decades old. Others are relatively new. These threats range from decentralized and leaderless accelerationist networks to more structured militia groups. Antigovernment extremism is one of the Common Threads, but we often see overlap with antiimmigrant, antisemitic, antiblack, antimuslim ideologies as well, bringing these extremists into common cause with others who are extremist in nature. We have an opportunity to discuss the current Threat Landscape from these movements, so we can develop an understanding of how they have flourished in our communities and in online spaces. We have seen horrific acts of violence. In april, a man in texas was arrested after streaming himself on Facebook Live searching for a Law Enforcement officer to ambush. In may and june, a man in california shot and killed a department of Homeland Security federal protective Service Officer and wounded one more, and then went on to kill a Santa Cruz County sheriffs officer before being arrested. He wrote the word boog in blood after carrying out the second murder. In may, three men were arrested by the fbi in nevada, in possession of molotov cocktails, while reportedly on their way to incite violence at a black lives matter protest in las vegas. In june, a man in oklahoma was arrested and found to be in possession of an illegally modified machinegun, homemade grenades, and molotov cocktails, all of these men appear to be connected to the boogaloo movement. The list goes on and on. It is important today that we do not lose sight of how these movements intersect with other popular extremist groups. We are going to be asking some really critical questions today. Is whatlly, number one the hell do we do about this. What does Law Enforcement do, what does the federal government do, what should social media do . What do we do in it collaborative way, and what we do in a mandatory way . We have a shared responsibility across the public and private sectors. The lives of our lawenforcement officials are on the line. The lives of innocent citizens , who are congregating in protests, are on the line. And i do believe, in so many ways, the future of this country and sanctity of the constitution is on the line. With that, the chair now fromnizes the gentleman South Carolina on the subcommittee, mr. Walker. Walker thank you, mr. Chairman. There is no doubt that across the globe there is an uptick in extremist ideology. Particularly linked to White Supremacy. As the committee created after 9 11, we must stay focused on the continued jihadi threat. We are seeing the adoption of accelerationist rhetoric with call to target government institutions and Law Enforcement for adherence to commit acts of violence as a means of creating further unrest. We have seen this in subpoenas movements, antigovernment groups and environmental organizations. This convergence of violent ideologies results in the sharing of tactics and propaganda and the spreading of misinformation and conspiracies as well as the celebration of violence. I probably should start with expressing my condolences to the families of david underwood, a dhs protective Security Officer , and david, a Santa Cruz County deputy that the chairman just mentioned. They were both murdered in the line of duty in may and early june. I also want to express support for the speedy recovery of their colleagues, who were also injured. The suspect believed to be responsible has been arrested, and the fbi is conducting an investigation into the links of the possible support for the boogaloo movement, which is an accelerationist term. We also must review others as , as the chairman mentioned. I appreciate that. These attacks are on all americans. Groups like antifa, and i know that seems to be a conservative talking point, but its not. The kind of damage they are doing, a reporter sat in my office, and i could still see the injuries. There has been a consistent effort by antifa supporters to infiltrate protests to lay siege the government buildings and target Law Enforcement. In portland alone, the police chief has stated that the violence has costed the city tens of millions of dollars. Specifically in overtime for security as well as the damage done. These are the kinds of things that we must stand together, regardless of politics. In seattle, there is an effort to deny the antifa movement. We need to move forward. The reality is that antifa is not an organization. We understand that. But it is a movement, an ideology, and a call for violent rioting. The people involved in the zones and continued violence around the city are certainly part of these movements. We can agree that all of these groups, boogaloo, antifa, and any other extremist movements that seek to terrorize, must be condemned, and i think that is why this hearing is crucial today. These violent extremists on all sides are intending to hijack legitimate protests and interrupt debate on needed institutional reforms. Some are targeting protesters. Some are attacking Police Officers. Many are vandalizing government buildings and others seek to create these socalled autonomous zones. We need effort to condemn violence and restore order. I want to thank the witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee today. I look forward to your testimony, and i yield back my time. I thank the Ranking Member. Members are reminded, the subcommittee will operate according to the guidelines laid out by chairman thompson and ranking number roberts. The chair now recognizes the gentleman of the full committee, mr. Thompson, for an opening statement. In chairman thompsons absence, the chair now recognizes the Ranking Member of the full committee, the gentleman from alabama, mr. Rodgers, for an opening statement. Oh, there is chairman thompson. Chairman thompson, i will recognize you for an opening statement. Rep. Thompson thank you very much, chairman rose. I thank you for convening this timely hearing today and for your leadership. This committee is known for following the threats wherever they may lead. This hearing provides us with the opportunity to examine the emerging threat from violent antigovernment extremists. I believe todays hearing is the first congressional hearing that focuses on the emerging threat of the accelerationist, and i applaud chairman rose for examining this issue. It is important that members and the American Public hear from these experts today to understand those emerging threats. Recent attacks and arrests have showcased the threat from individuals affiliated with the boogaloo movement. This loose coalition presents an immediate danger to Law Enforcement and the american people. As our experts have shared in their written testimony, this movement is complex and requires a nuanced understanding. The Boogaloo Network appears to be largely antigovernment, constantly changing and drawing followers from the fringes of many different extremist ideologies. The Common Thread is the desire to accelerate society toward a second civil war. That means that many of them are driven to commit violence. It is imperative the department of Homeland Security and other fellow agencies immediately devote resources toward understanding and confronting these emerging threats. I understand that this is a difficult issue, but it is not acceptable for dhs to remain in the dark. Law enforcement officials remain a top target of these individuals and extremists which , which means that it is even more urgent for dhs to produce and disseminate information to state and local Law Enforcement , so they can stay ahead of the threat. Federal resources and attention must be appropriately allocated. We need to follow the threat. We should not be swayed by political whims. It goes without saying that Property Damage and any and all violence linked to antifa should be condemned. But public reporting, arrest records, the governments reporting indicate that rightwing extremists pose a more urgent and lethal threat to americans. We will hear from experts about the threats facing americans. I look forward to the discussion on how the violent fringes of these movements have utilized Online Platforms to their advantage. This has been a major concern of mine over the last congress, and one of the reasons i introduced hr 4782, the National Commission on Online Platforms and Homeland Security act. The commission would seek to understand how bad actors, including extremists, exploit Online Platforms in furtherance of violence. This bipartisan piece of legislation was voted out of this committee in october 2019 and awaits action from our colleagues in the energy and commerce committee. This committee will continue to shed light on how social media platforms are exploited and also hold the Companies Accountable when they failed to enforce the policies they have set forth to combat extremists. I appreciate the witnesses joining us today, and again thank chairman rose for convening this hearing, and i yield back. Rep. Rose thank you, mr. Chairman. I now welcome our esteemed witnesses. Our first witness is jj macnab. She is an expert on antigovernment extremism. And militia groups. Our second witness is dr. Heidi beirich, cofounder of the Global Project against hate and extremism. Eirich has more than two decades of experience fighting extremism, including leading the Southern Poverty Law Center intelligence project. Our third and final witness is jack donohue. He is at records universit rutg. He is a former chief of Strategic Initiatives at the new York City Police department. He brings to this discussion his breath of experience from his time as a leader at the nypd. Thank you for your Extraordinary Service for new york city with the men in blue. The greatest Police Department in the world. I will allow each witness to summarize his opening statement. Beginning with ms. Macnab. You. Acnab thank thank you to the distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today. I am a Research Fellow at George Washingtons program on extremism. The remarks i will express are my own. Im here to talk about the militant segment of the antigovernment extremist movement. People who want to change or topple the country by force or a threat of force. Like any large movement, this group goes through cycles, and in the months following the 2016 election, altright supremacy groups experienced a meteoric rise. Military extremists either joined these movements or were quiet. They approve of the current administration, and so their antigovernment rage abated for a time. However, renewed conversations about gun control laws, stress from the pandemic, the mainstreaming of antivaccine conspiracy theories, high unemployment rate, civil unrest in major u. S. Cities, and the extreme divisiveness plaguing the Upcoming Elections have triggered a recent reverb. The movement is not monolithic. The oath keepers membership include Police Officers and military veterans has shifted from armed standoffs to providing support to Small Businesses violating state harm pandemic orders. And organizing armed guards to protect neighborhoods from violence. The 3 ers is a hybrid between a Militia Network and a gun club. This group leaves they only need 3 of americans to overthrow the current u. S. Government. Each subgroup is independent of the others, and there is no leadership for structures. Despite their large numbers, infighting has kept them from becoming a force. The militia is a much smaller segment of the business. Business. Scattered throughout the country, engaged in armed training, have a relatively organized structure and even though many states prohibit their activities, they operate with impunity. The idea of a second American Revolution where armed patriots rise up and overthrow a tyrannical government has been the dream of extremists for decades. Most call this the second American Revolution. Members of the weapons board renamed it the boogaloo, which later turned into big luau and big igloo. Supporters wore hawaiian shirts under their body armor, and the look went viral. Other militants started copying the shirts and jargon. For most, it was just an in joke, a tribal aesthetic that separated those who were in the know from those who were not. Most boogaloo members are libertarian anarchists who hate cops. The goal is to hasten the collapse of the government through attacks on police. These are the major players. How they react to Current Events raises many red flags. Im worried that any attempt to pass guncontrol regulation could trigger one or more significant violent events. This could include red flag laws, bans on certain types of rifles, or any legislation that is viewed as a foot the door leading to gun confiscation. Another potential issue is the covid19 pandemic, which is placing significant stress on extremist groups. If states return to lockdown status, i am concerned that individuals and small groups will lash out quietly against violently against the government, Law Enforcement, medical professionals, essential workers, contact tracers, and medical infrastructure. Some militants, driven by conspiracy theories, have already turned to armed resistance at reopen rallies and have taken up guns to protect Business Owners who want to violate stayathome orders. Michigan has been a hotspot for such activity, and in may, the state had to cancel legislative sessions because of the armed threat. I am also concerned that the upcoming election will spark one or more violent events if the president loses his reelection bid. The risk that worries me most, i though, i am concerned that there will be a shoot out at one or more of the black lives matter protests. There are too many guns at these events, held by too many groups with conflicting goals. You can find the oath takers taking to the streets to protect police or businesses from antifa or when boogaloo joined forces with black lives matter against the police, adding the National Guard and federal agencies and rights the premises groups, along with a growing number of leftwing militants and volunteer armed guards, there is the potential street war growing. And there are militant groups and individuals willing to shoot at or bomb police and protesters, just to get that war started, so they can use the chaos to accelerate their own plans for revolution. These groups know they need a catalyst, a big event. They need a ruby ridge or waco, so they can be the next mcveigh. Most are waiting for the big event, but there are some that will do what they have to to force this occurrence. Thank you for your time. Rep. Rose thank you for your testimony. We will now recognize mr. Donohue. To summarize his statement for five minutes. Mr. Donohue thank you very much. Good morning, chair rose, Ranking Member walker, members of the subcommittee, and chair thompson. Donhue, Rutgers University recently retired , threestar chief from the new York City Police department for 32 years of patrol, intelligence , and strategy. The opinions im giving are my own. I am testifying to discuss safety concerns and challenges for Law Enforcement made by the growing phenomenon of militia extremism and the power of online movements to influence violent actions domestically. Again, the use of social media is documented. These platforms are mobile and they are ubiquitous. Here in the United States, we cherish the right for freedom of speech and assembly, and social media has been embraced by many to share ideas and opinions on any topic at any time. What is recently observable from social media data is that there is an exponential growth in participation in the cyber social domain coalesced around a revolutionary and extremist themes at either ends of the ideological spectrum. And those extremists have Law Enforcement squarely in their sights. In the early stages of the isis caliphate to motivate some youth , impressionable and disaffected, to support devices,. We know the recruitment started on the social media platforms and moved to encrypted communications to shield criminal conversations from authorities. The same cycle is happening domestically, with militia ist movements on the far right and far left. A report i coauthored in may on the Network ContagionResearch Institute shows that on social media memes become viral and evolved, plant hateful and revolutionary ideas in the public eye, often disguised as inside jokes. The boogaloo code word for revolution is an example of that movement. In protests over the lockdowns, followers played out their inside jokes, wearing hawaiian shirts and carrying semi automatic rifles. Memes shared on the Message Boards gamify assaults on Law Enforcement, encouraging violence through jargon known in the gaming community. While it appears in a forthcoming report, we had records showing antiplease messaging and other farleft media spaces, where they have seen special growths in the most recent period of exponential growth in the most recent period of unrest in america. These antigovernment messages have broken into Mainstream Media on facebook and twitter. Memes advocating murder of Law Enforcement and slogans found on the internet used by the farleft were scrawled on defaced monuments and buildings all across america. And memes instructing peaceful socalled peaceful protests that can be used as tactical subterfuge for violent action are now being widely circulated on social media. What is apparent, regardless of ideology, is that assaults on and the murder of Law Enforcement that occurred during the recent civil unrest were motivated in part by the themes in the memes and those slogans. Now, it is not unusual for police to be the subject of protest. There has always been inherent tension between Law Enforcement policing protests. Why . Because police are the most visible representatives of government, and here people are protesting against us. Protest activity is a constitutional right. We in Law Enforcement are sworn to protect that right regardless of the contents of the speech or whatever controversy no matter how controversial it may seem, with very limited exceptions. Another right is to bear arms. Some states permit open carry. Lawfully owned firearms, while others outlaw that practice. Both have withstood constitutional scrutiny with exceptions. I highlight these rights because , in real life, on the streets, when tens of thousands of people are assembled, explaining the finer points of rationality does not work. That is why police are at an disadvantage and challenged when they become the targets of protests, as was more recently observable on the right and on the left. Intelligence gathering brings its own tension and limitations. Law enforcement needs to prepare for the safety of these incidents. That is smart government, and there are safeguards in place to prevent overage. What Law Enforcement needs and what is out there come from an open source. When people use encrypted communications, police have zero visibility into those channels, and that is where tactics and opportunities for confrontations are shared. Law enforcement has a tough task when policing protest events in the best of times. But when protesters arrive, intent on violence or arepation, and they carrying semiautomatic weapons, the stakes grow exponentially. Militia members know this and seize opportunities to amplify their message through direct confrontation with police. What can be done despite social media efforts to minimize the ability of extremist messages, they persist. Social Media Companies are not in the position to identify those who encourage violence. Law enforcement must remain vigilant. The timeframe may be remarkably short. Law enforcement is the last line of defense against extremist who mobilizes violence and it may be their own lives that they save because they become the ultimate target. The outcomes of a militia and revolutionary extremists online movements are not protectable. The time for acknowledging it and rapidly working to preserve Civil Society is upon us, and i thank you for having this hearing. Rep. Rose thank you for your testimony. I now recognize dr. Beirich to summarize her statements for five minutes. Dr. Beirich chairman rose, Ranking Member walker, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify today. It is a great honor. My name is heidi beirich. I am the cofounder of the Global Project against hate and extremism. I have been researching for more than 20 years. Todays hearing is of the utmost importance. We face, as we have already heard here, a global and increasingly violent extremist movement, composed of an incendiary mix of White Supremacists, neonazis, and the new groups like the Boogaloo Boys. All are interested in bringing about the collapse of democracy through violence. This is what accelerationism is. The accelerators, these extremists are sharing hateful ideologies for correcting internationally in a way that was not before possible. This group is at the defeat of Tech Companies that refuse to express the hate and content on their platforms. The fbi considers the risk of violent as, quote, on the same footing as those of Foreign Terrorists like isis. Dhs, the state department, government agencies, and independent experts all agree farright extremism is a metastasizing problem that this country and others will be dealing with for the long term. The tragedies in pittsburgh, el paso, and christchurch, new zealand are testament to the devastation terrorists inspired by these movements have wrought. Right now, the movements are taking advantage of the pandemic and Racial Justice protests to spread hate about those they wrongly blame for covid19 and to attack Peaceful Protesters and Police Officers. It is likely the violence will intensify as we approach the november elections. Descriptions of groups and the Movement Overall are laid out in detail in my written testimony, so i would like to take the opportunity here to offer recommendations. Nothing is going to stop the this movements growth and violent activity if we dont accept that the Online Platforms are driving extremism. Much as hitler used what was then the new technology of the radio to unleash his genocidal views into german families homes, extremists today do the same with the web. Starting in 2015, the number of perpetrators of terrorist incidents were exposed to violent extremist ideologies almost entirely online rather than in the real world began to rise substantially. That was all forms of extremism. , right, left, islamic. Online platforms are where recruitment occurred, money is raised, and strategy is sophisticated. Inside jokes and so on. There is a double standard with how Online Platforms treat content produced by White Supremacists versus islamic extremists. For the latter, deplatforming is the accepted strategy for counterterrorism for the latter and practiced by Tech Companies. It would be inconceivable for social media platforms to allow isis propaganda to go unchecked or be monetized, but thats whats happening with White Supremacy. It wasnt until 2017 that Tech Companies began to take hate seriously and ramp up enforcement. But it has not been enough. A facebook civil rights group, with antisemitic as asians and hate groups. Organizations and hate groups. Dozens of youtube videos by the International White nationalists network that were monetized. Bringing ad revenue from businesses and Political Campaign ads. Even after notifying youtube, most of it is still up. If we are to stop the spread of acceleration is meant violence, mustocial media platforms design policies and enforce them. The raising the bar act, proposed by chairman rose, would help form a baseline of data addressing extremist content, and that could be used to push the platforms better. Policies like those proposed by the Civil Rights Coalition i, could help if adopted. We also need to address extremism in the military. There are way too many actively serving troops and veterans in these movements. We cant be training people to kyl and then unleashing them on the public. When it comes to Law Enforcement priorities, passage of the act, proposed by chairman thompson, would help us to understand how officials are prioritizing and combating these movements. The extreme review act would direct dhs to disseminate terrorist threat assessments of foreign violent extremist groups. Thats good step as well. I would suggest, though, that we be very careful in providing more legal authorities to Law Enforcement before understanding what the impact might be. Too often, when weve increased the powers of federal Law Enforcement, they werent used as promise but rather against marginalized populations to violate civil rights. Finally, sensible gun control measures, like banning ghost guns, could be useful in. In closing, i would like to thank you for taking these issues seriously and for having me here today. Thank all of the witnesses for their extraordinary testimony or do i remind all of the subcommittee members that you have five minutes. I now recognize myself for five minutes. Thent to move away from all noise. See, what is the worstCase Scenario, where do you see things going, if we do not act . Lets start with you. Mr. Donohue clearly i raised the comparisons between a violent jihadist recruitment. And that is certainly true here. What weve seen is the motivation to violence can happen at any moment. The concern that we had is that that violence, in triggering the events that have happened across the United States, and as heidi mentioned before, even christchurch, go to show that the power of whats happening online and the power of the messages are so virulent that they make sense to certain people, and thats where we need to have the ability to have visibility into those networks and the people who are motivated to violence. Rep. Rose dr. Beirich . Dr. Beirich my biggest concerns are essentially twofold. One, what jj described, which is best kind of incendiary situation that you find at the recent protests, where she said rightly said people are heavily armed, eagerly triggered, and we have already seen Police Officers shot dead and plots against protesters, as happened in las vegas. But attacks like we saw in paso, pittsburgh, and poway, and i could go on and on, is what im most concerned about. The White Supremacists who have come to believe they need to use terrorism and violence to bring down systems of government. Multicultural democracies, basically, to stop genocide that has motivated most of the attacks, and that motivation wont go away, because demographics are shifting in much of the western world, and thats what they view as a threat. And if we dont intercept how this propaganda is spread on main street platforms, where it allows for recruiting, im just afraid that the next christchurch could be around the corner anywhere, here or abroad. Rep. Rose thank you. Ms. Macnab . Ms. Macnab were facing an uphill battle. Youve got social media norad, where people can basically post propaganda. They recruit. They are actively recruiting younger male members. From that point on, they move into private groups and places, like discord, and from there, they cherry pick who they think are serious actors and move into other places. Trying to police this, i think, would be impossible. If you got rid of the bigger groups, bigger propaganda groups on facebook, you would put an end to it. I dont think there is a large risk of these groups ever coming together and forming a private army, but im very concerned about small cell terrorism. I think, as i put in my earlier testimony, that protestors are at risk. Police officers are at risk. And possibly infrastructure. I know that in las vegas, one of their plots was to take down did grade, the power grid, during a protest, so that they could then fire on protestors, bomb protestors, and the chaos would be horrible, because it would be pitch dark. So i think there is this mass casualty thats an issue. I dont think it will be large scale. I dont think it will be coordinated too much in the cities, but i think the possibility for someone to have learned, for example, from the las vegas shooter, getting up high and shooting down into a crowd, is a very big concern. Rep. Rose thank you. Mr. Walker, youre up, my friend. Thank you, sir. I want to start with mr. Donohue, if i could, please. With over three decades of nypd experience, you are uniquely qualified to talk about why Law Enforcement is a common target of violent extremist groups. Can you add to the testimony youve already provided about why this is the case, the impact it has on Law Enforcement, and how the current environment is impacting Law Enforcement and their families. Mr. Donohue thank you very much, Ranking Member walker. In addition to what i had said in my prepared remarks and in my testimony, the effect and impact on Law Enforcement obviously is great. What weve seen are attacks directly, to be sensational, to indicate the true intention is to attack the most visible arm of government, which is police. And that impact on Law Enforcement over the last month and a half or so has been dramatic. There is always a concern both from a retiring out, from a, how can they continue to respond to repeated negative attacks on Law Enforcement, whether just the physical or the emotional reality that winds up taking place with Police Officers and sheriffs around the country, due to those long hours and being exposed repeatedly to the negative media engine thats played on it. The reason i say is because, we, Police Officers and sheriffs, s, Law Enforcement, are the most visible representatives of the government, and we always look to be as an arm of whomever is being protested against. And most importantly, its against the police. You walker mr. Donohue, mentioned Upcoming Research on leftwing groups anarchists. Are you looking at violence and destruction linked to various militia groups or extremist that is has occurred over the past few months . I dont want to tip my hand before the research is complete, but i said what i said in my written remarks, and both in my testimony, that there has been an exponential growth in both in far left anarchists social media participation. Thats antipolice and antigovernment. Rep. Walker all right. The question i want to go to, i i believe it is ms. Macnab, you warned or cautioned or worried, i believe was your terminology, for Gun Legislation, if any Gun Legislation was passed or if the election did not reelect President Trump, you were concerned, i guess, of various Different Levels of civil unrest. You might have even used like a war on the streets. Is that just something youre seeing from your research or just your concern . Can you unpack that for me a little bit . Ms. Macnab sure. Those are two different issues. Gun control and the reelection of President Trump. Gun control has been a hot issue for antigovernment extremism for decades. That has always been a concern. It was one of the factors that pushed mcveigh to move forward, um, with the restriction on assault rifles. It is just a hot button. It is one of the very few things we can all agree on. Its one of the few things that can bring them all together. There is some proposed legislation in virginia at the beginning of the year at a gun rally to protest it. Ordinarily, a rally with guns is going to draw 200 to 500 people. This particular rally brought in 22,000. Its a hot issue, and most gun owners are not violent. Most gun owners are not extremists, but there are a number in the antigovernment extremist world who talk about, this is going to happen. Im going to unleash. The election of President Trump is a separate issue. You know, a lot of these guys have been very pleased with trump. They support him. You can see the maga hats and trump signs, and they have they want him to continue. And they have talked about civil war now for years, if he does not continue. Rep. Walker thank you. I didnt know if there was anything recent that you had seen that would expedite some of this. All of your testimony touched on the direct targeting of Law Enforcement by extremists. How can we, as a society best show, support for Law Enforcement, as they face the challenge, maybe additional training tools and authorities, do they need . I would like to start with ms. Could. , if i dr. Beirich sure. For years, they have been targeting Law Enforcement. They have killed dozens of Law Enforcement officials across the United States, so that has to be understood. Law enforcement is viewed as the arm of the government, and its sort of the first line level. So cops are in a precarious position when it comes to these movements. After all, two Law Enforcement officers were killed out in california recently during the justice protest and targeted. So thats firstoff. I think when it comes to Law Enforcement dealing with these threats, there needs to be a lot of study of enhancing authorities for them. You know, there are a lot of people out there who are calling for a domestic terrorism statute, for example, applying proposals, including from the chairman here, about applying the Foreign Terrorist Organization designation to international White Supremacists networks, that would allow Law Enforcement officer to use other tools than they can use right now to combat this threat. These avenues that should be investigated. I do worry deeply about if the tools arent used in the right way, and thats why i talk about the need for study. But i think these things need to be discussed ant on the table. Rep. Walker thank you, mr. Chairman. Im going to yield back some of because i am over time. If i have time, i will come back and ask for answers from the other panelists. Ill recognize the chairman of the subcommittee, chairman thompson. Thank you for your extraordinary leadership. Rep. Thompson thank you so much, chairman rose, and i thank the witnesses for their expert testimony also. One of the challenges that weve been working with is how do we get the various platforms to assume an enhanced responsibility for managing content, respecting civil rights and civil liberties, but some of the things that we see being pushed out further enhances the militias and other extremists, to carry forth their message. And i guess ill talk with each witness to kind of, to what extent should we hold those companies responsible for the content that pushed out on their various platforms. And chief, if you want to start off with it, and then well go miss mcnabb. H and macnab. Mr. Donohue thank you very much for the question. It enhances responsibility for social Media Companies. Its interesting when you link that up, obviously, in my testimony, i speak about the value of the power of social media platforms to serve as an opportunity to share ideas and free speech. But they have dollarized it, and speech thats being shared on a number of social media platforms obviously goes to provoke the assaults that were seeing taking place on Law Enforcement, and jeopardizing others that are not involved in the protests. I think the extent to which social Media Companies have been placed into position to monitor that speech and to ask their communities, the social Media Community itself, to help police , whats on the platforms, has gone somewhat in the right direction. However, its a game of whackamole. For each of those extremist speech and video, and memes being shown altering the content of what other people are saying, and amplifying negative messages, it really becomes a complication. I think part of it is really empowering the communities that are on the platforms themselves. In coordination with the companies to police them internally. Its not a question of whether police or Law Enforcement can do that. Thats not possible. As diffuse as the internet is and as diffuse as the number of people are that are using it, it has to fall a little bit on them as well as the companies. Rep. Thompson thank you. Dr. Beirich . Dr. Beirich i should have mentioned in my oral testimony year plan for a commission to look into this. [laughs] i apologize. The process that has gone on here for too long is civil rights organizations screaming and yelling and criticizing the Tech Companies in public, and then having sort of incremental moves to improve the situation when it comes to White Supremacy. I believe that its going to take a lot more than that to really clean these companies up. I mean, if facebook can submit itself to a civil rights audit , and it finds that it still has major problems on this front as well as others then this strategy, as much as its brought the companies along a little ways is not enough. I would suggest that Congress Call the Tech Companies to account for how whats in their terms of service, and how they are enforcing those terms terms of service . At this point, most of them not to monetize hate content. Not to host a lot of aspects of White Supremacy, and yet we keep finding it and we keep finding it and we keep finding it, so much that facebook was found to have dozens of neonazi bands on the system recently. So i would suggest its time for congress to use its investigative powers in some way to call the companies into account, ask them about their procedures what they are doing, how they do it, and to raise the bar app, is, as i understand it, modeled very much on what the European Union has done, which is create monitoring exercises for outside actors, look at what is going on with hate content, and reports are created by the European Commission that are used to push the Tech Companies to do better. Something like that would be good. Just one last caution. It really shouldnt be up to civil rights organizations that are small and underfunded to have to play this role in our society. Its just simply asking too much. Thank you. Rep. Thompson thank you. Ms. Macnab . Ms. Macnab im going to second that. One problem is these organizations chase the news, so if there is a sudden influx of news about the boogaloos, then facebook comes in and does a purge of some of the more violent groups. The problem is, the news doesnt often know whats going on in private groups, in direct messages, and even some of the public pages. I spent a lot of time developing contacts in this world, so i can get into their private groups. What they post is shockingly bad, but because the news are not in the private groups, they dont report it, so facebook lets it cluster, and im just using facebook as an example. There are other social media books. The first place i go is facebook, who is responding, who is taking credit, who is laughing about it . Lets get the kill rate up. Im going to go to Facebook First and foremast. Ae boogaloo group, it is dress code, it is a jargon. The people who belong to it came from other extremist groups usually on facebook. It might have been militia, a White Supremacy they picked it up somewhere and donned that hawaiian shirt, and yet they are treated as a separate movement , and youre ignoring the underlying areas that they came from. They have a page with 551,000 followers. They say some pretty violent things in the comments. I can report this to facebook. I have never had one deleted. Ive had Death Threats on facebook that were quite explicit. Again, i can report them and nothing happens. Unless there is a lot of attention paid to the social media company, they dont really have incentive to do anything at all. So its not really up to civil Rights Groups or even the news to be able to monitor all of these things, so there has to be some external group, some committee, something, that to can provide accountability and keep an eye on it. Rep. Thompson well, we are looking at it, and the leader has taken the leadership on. This its real concerning on our part. Because, as you said, chief donohue and others, as long as im making money off this product, its hard to pull back. A viewing member, we asked a simple question about how much is your revenue stream is devoted to managing content . It would almost like, i dont believe you asked that question. [laughs] you know, its like and all were trying to do, if youre serious about it, and you speak with your resources, and so i think, without having government come in and just run a private business, i think we have an obligation to the public to make sure that these Companies Just cant monetize hate and other things and claim free speech as the reason they arent doing anything. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Youve been very gracious with your time and i yield back. Rep. Rose mr. Chairman, thank you very much. We will now recognize miss slotkin, from michigan. Rep. Slotkin i am from midmichigan and the issue of extremism and hate groups and incidents with those has been on the rise and just very recently from the coronavirus lockdown, we had repeated protests in my district protesting on sort of all sides, protesting the lockdown that our governors put in place but also protesting response to the killing of george floyd and weve seen a fourfold increase in the state of michigan in the past year and a half. In instances of hate. Whether its graffiti, violence. Etc. , etc. You know, one of the things im concerned about is back since the lockdown started, weve hate groups that are present in the state of michigan. And one of them has been, i think on the rise is the proud boys. And i was wondering, maybe chief donahue, if you could speak to this group in any way. They are putting signs on top of their cars. They are wearing sounds that present proud boys. I think theres a discussion about whether they are a hate group, but can you talk about that group and what you know about them . I would have to defer. Groupot know the proud specifically, so perhaps one of my panelists do. Miss bay ridge. I would be happy to talk to them at the Southern Poverty Law Center be added their organization to our list of hate groups, largely on the basis of very ugly antimuslim thinking. The proud boys in some ways were forerunner to the activism we are seeing in the Boogaloo Boys, a group thats turning militant, a lot of inside jokes, a certain particular kind of look and youre right. They are showing up at places like these protest movements and theres something to be concerned about. I will say that the Canadian Military just this week banned its members from being part of the proud boys. That gives you a sense of how seriously another government views the organization. I really think the problem right now for the violence seems to be boogaloo folks, people connected to that. And i think there have been seven different plots involving them, six or seven, i might be a little off, that couldve led to a pretty terrible situation. Like in las vegas. So, i would focus on them more. Very specifically we had a protest in front of the Lansing Police location. It was in response to the george floyd murder, but there was a number of armed men in hawaiian shirts who showed up at the protest. We didnt have any incidents but they were photographed at the scene. Can we talk more about the Boogaloo Boys and what we can expect here . Sure, the problem with the Boogaloo Boys as there not a cohesive movement. You can have Boogaloo Boys that are White Supremacists and want to harm the george floyd protesters. You could also Boogaloo Boys and this is the larger group that are antipolice, not racist and they are siding with the protesters for the george floyd protests. You could actually, in a really bizarre world, have two boogaloo groups shooting at each other. And so, just being able to see the hawaiian shirt, you cant really prejudge why that person is there and what they want to accomplish. Ok, and back to chief donahue. If you could talk, i held an event in my district with the local fbi and our attorney general because of the rise of incidents of hate in michigan generally and in my history. And in my district. And they talked about this ladder of escalation. Talking you see these groups talking online and then theres graffiti and nonviolent incidents and how we step up that ladder. Can you talk, in the very long time i have left, about that . Talking and what we are about is the viral nature of memes. People online are creating and sharing. But then when people modify and shift their dialogue from what was something that wouldve been inside joke or something that was funny and then start showing things that are more violent and i can talk of the specific incidences in the more recent protests where police were involved. There used to be some terms. So is one of them, but then that turned on viral memes that into o you turn something that shows even more was, nce, and one of them the term itself means all cops are bastards. Were ere were memes that then turned into police cars on morphed ine term was as meme to, as crispy bacon. You can see how the terminology, more recent he unrest goes toward amplifying a violence. F thats how that happens. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Of time. m out thank you. Were do a second round of questioning. Off by recognizing jack. Much, mr. Ou very chairman. In the field. Im glad folks can hear me and see me. Epicenter now, something youve experienced with covid19 but this is a very and i thank ring you very much. Kinds of these intrusions in opposition to the vietnam war and a number of incidents that weve indulged in so im interested in asking all of the witnesses if would tell me what would be results of not dealing with these Fringe Groups who can characterize important protests where people are their heart and from their beliefs in this country, from their beliefs in from their belief in be eful change, what would the plight of the nation without addressing these particular elements directly . Directly, say legislative issues, continuous oversight like this committee is i would ask each witness to provide me their response. And i particularly speak about boogaloo and other groups that have been known to do this in eras in the history of the United States. Well start with you. Certainly. He end result, we all believe, in the constitutional democracy abilityrepublic and the to protest with righteous rage is important, but this is petitioning the government. Were seeing in, i believe my panelists have been very saying, what were seeing is violence thats coming of peaceful protests, being usurped surped at peaceful protests, petitioning for acceleration purposes. That is what you cant have a Constitutional Rights when there are tens of thousands of people protesting that abilityo have preserved but civility is the thing we need to have at rotests and thats lacking in any instances when we have acceleration, with guns, intent on iolence and intent occupation, where as the we can have change in government here its appropriate, as opposed to violent revolution is about, and talking thats where Police Become kind of straight in the headlines. We need to learn from the past and our mistakes. We need to move beyond that there is a path forward but its and hrough violence insurrection. Beirich . Yes, thank you schul. If we dont do something to spread of this material online, research, i think , et cetera, that what were facing is ssentially more mass terrorist attacks like what we saw in el paso, at the walmart, not just but in the United States, probably in other countries because White Supremacy is flourishing abroad. Were going to see more rise in hate crimes, much like weve pandemic, as is hate speech has been thrown against shes and jews in thetionship to covid19 and number of attacks on this population has risen. Ere going toe see more terrorists taking advantage of current conditions, whether that targeting protestors, which is already happened. Also cops have been killed by embers of these extremist but there are hs the other things happening. People they will use infected with covid to infect others. Scary thing. Lly there is a huge amount of people not acceptly, who do two racial multicultural democracies and dont like these like our d dont changing demographics and they are willing to use violence to it. P donohue. Thank you. Donohue. First. Ent sorry. My biggest fear is there will be acts of terrorism at active places. People put a damper on willing to go there. It will make people afraid to go protest. Streets and thats terrible for our system of democracy. As i mentioned, were coming up on a street war. Guns at way too many large protest events held by people with very differing lot of nd there is a paranoia. Some people bring it as a mechanism, some as an aggressive one and you never until the who shooting starts. Im terrified there will be a more of at one or these events that will put amper on future protests and thats a dreadful situation. Its very difficult to stop the these groups. Its very difficult to stop them from speaking because they have voice but there is no countervoice. We shouldnt be waiting to see Security Research memo is leaked before we know what the governments view is on groups. I would like to see some form of out talking put about who the groups are, how they are dangerous, who they target. Right now, i just look at the leaks as they come out looking that should be public record. That should be public information. Chairman, justr. Dr. Uick question to got is that i Domestic Intelligence is important to protect our citizens. Beirich, weve seen homeowners stand in front of misinterpreting protestors. Ow deep should we begin to assess hate speech and attitudes legislatively . Did a hate crimes bill so many years ago. I think we need to marginalize of how we ion interact so that different demonized. Not im asking dr. Beirich this question. Sure. Obviously, these people whose have i find repugnant, First Amendment rights. Ut i do think, as i said earlier, that congress has oversight responsibility to find going on in heck is the social media world on this front. If companies are allowed to write their own terms of service that our o me government has a right to find out whether they are being enacted how they are because we dont live in the same world where if somebody aid Something Special about black people, jews or muslims, that only carries to a few other people. Of people are potentially the target. White femalesoung have been sucked into the ranks some se movement, committing mass violence. To start re its got needs to pressure these companies. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, the Ranking Member and thank n, i yield back, you for this hearing. Very important. Mr. Walker ognize for a second round of questions. Thank you, chairman . Some quick ld have responses here. Various ways each of you track important content on xtremist violence and thats something thats been important to the chair as well. A social e calls for media norad version of something. Can you explain what type of you think authority the government or individual Law Enforcement agencies should have track certain social media posts. Should do this now . Ere working on it ms. Start with you. I hesitate to give police to monitor and things said by citizens. Its a problem area. It can be abused. Were still on this leftright idea, where we at this looking violent fringe. I think police have a little right wing that they dont have for left and i think they need to be looking at left at g more than this moment. Can you impact that for me a little bit more. When they have a blind spot. Video of a at any street protest. For example, in portland, or in a line of u have Police Officers separating left and right wing protestors. If you watch the Police Officers have their back, heavily armed standing behind them and they are facing left wing with the assumption that left wing is them, where to harm as the people standing behind hem have some pretty rabid antipolice ideas as well. There are a number of police with 3 for example, are extremist groups. Police need to be aware that extremist groups want to kill them and thats unfortunately not really coming through. As i said, there needs to be a countervoice on a lot of. His there needs to be information coming out of Homeland Security or f. B. I. I dont know what, but that these are the violent groups, this is what they are police have some ability to discern right wing from right wing extremists. Problem. Thank you, ms. Beririch i spent the better part of 20 different years, in a Republican Administration and democratic administration, trying to convince federal Law Enforcement wing he threat from right extremists should not be abandoned. Of course, after 9 11 people horrifically concerned about al qaeda, now isis, thats still important but looking at ight wing extremism was essentially dropped. In fact, there was a division at on right wing extremism that was shot down early in the years of the obama administration. It would be very helpful to find out exactly what the and al government is doing exactly what Authorities Say it has when it comes to right wing extremism. If i could interrupt for a second. Extreme con dent and media violence on the whole as her its left or right far as what kind of tools or access authorities should have in doing so. Do you have anything to speak to that . The reason im saying this is because the facts are right now, that right wing extremism is the bigger problem. If we were talking about the 1960s i would not debate whether there was mass left wing violence. Beust think the focus has to there. Thats where the deaths are coming from. And uld change tomorrow thats what needs to be battled in terms of online space. Donohue. I think no side, and i hate but nothat as an example one along the spectrum has a monopoly n hate and a on violence. Authorities are that exist within the federal government with guidelines on intelligence. There is the f. B. I. s Domestic Intelligence operations guide, believe, in my former position in the nypd, were court monitorship for intelligence investigations and intelligence gathering that in, in the past, and where ive said in my testimony, that they are in the past. There has been overreach. Having been an intelligence fficer i understand the importance of it and how it can violence, and injury and death. As weve seen in more recent protests, molotov being thrown at Police Officers and Police Officials over the head is sustaining serious injuries. We know there is no one side. Fact, when you look at events that happened in california with the deaths you earlier, of federal and sheriffs deputies, are incredibly painful for law need ement to see and we to have the support through dhs the intelligence training and authorities, at the Regional Intelligence Center level. Mentioned from my written testimony about the norad type broker ship that i was talking about. We should have more conversations about that because thats understanding that entire of whats happening inside the social domain comes to ly when it violence. I know the dhs is expanding rograms, hiring people, im encouraged by all of these activities and maybe at some point we could do an in person update to maybe get an on some of that work but thank you again, i see my time has on a question but if they were strong answers, i it and i yield back. Thats something we should absolutely pursue. Its clear that that extremism the lives of ning officials orcement across the country. Have made a d i commitment. Affecting s also peoples Constitutional Rights o congregate, and this extremism is undeniably steroids byt put on social media. Very simply n is and well start with ms. Mccabe, congress does not do anything to crack down on whats happening, across the spectrum, we putting the lives of Law Enforcement officials and awabiding americans risk . Essarily at the answer is yes. Long term remains to be seen. It may be the groups build and and build without any dampening effect and engage in acts of violence and they may burn out but the long term is unknown. Lookingrm i think were at mass casualties. It could be three, 50, could be and it could be protestors, it could be cops. It could be press, it could be workers. It could be anybody. S long as there is chaos these groups will thrive and so they will do what they have to do to bring chaos to the situation, yes, i think if you do nothing, people will die. J. J. Agree with if you do nothing to try to stop the transfer leading to all this in liver rating especially the online space well have j. J. Described. Mr. Donohue . Its very clear that the and the rhetoric is being turned up, and as i said my prepared remarks, were watching and we need to acknowledge what this hearing is that we need to preserve several society and i believe to act. Needs i think politicians get lost minutia. We have here a group of experts, f bipartisan support in terms of their stature and expertise, and they are unanimous in the not act as we do congress to address the rapid extremism and militia activity in america, as social media, on if we do not gather the courage to act Law Enforcement officials lawabiding americans will die. Happens,en and if that we have no excuse. I sincerely hope we can put act politics aside and out how we figure can do something. Something needs to be signed into law, democrats and to agree on have something. That, we will go on to ms. For another round of questions. Thank you. I just want to continue the line questioning i had in my first question. Police high ranking officer this ladder of escalation, youve talked about it on the internet, and how maybe an goes from inside joke to more extreme on internet. But for the people of michigan can you talk about that ladder escalation when it hops off the internet and starts to become vandalism, harassment and potentially violence. E know from some of these examples you talked about, that there is a ladder. There is a road that people perpetrate e they real violence, and for any extremist, and i was just hoping could you walk us through what that looks like kind of in a tik way. I think it probably defies a logical order. Nij a couple of years back produced a report that potential risk from s for radicalization to slants streamism and it was written in of the experiences u. S. Ukcanada, for to le who were seeking support violent extremism abroad. Say that imant to scientist, these are examples that other experts have on. Hed in ut certainly among them, what you can see are people who have desire for status or who want to belong, for people who desire adventure, people that have serious grievances, that under threat, and have an us versus them attitude. Those all are part of that toxic stew that can contribute, not ecessarily, can contribute to radicalization, and violence. People, parents, community members, members of either, and and potentially people in the online help support, identifying those who are moving mere radicalization of thoughts to motivation to violence. And and as weve said before in our prepared testimony, that time frame, specifically, with what life s at the tree of synagogue in pittsburgh, that murderous rampage literally went from a web posting moments efore entering, going in and conducting those murders. Posted online, screw your in, and m going proceeded so the time frame from eft of action to right of action is very, very short. It requires observation from many. Great. Chairman, i yield back. Ms. Jackson. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I want to follow up on my questioning that i had previously. Beirich, i believe its important for the government to its actions of expanded resources, mitt goth some of the intense dangers that been evidenced in this hearing. I take, for example, what mr. Donohue just said, the email or the social media right before synagogue heinous killing. Black lives hat matter and the movement is a movement. Hts it is a Generational Movement thats drawn the attention of nation. 7 of the American Public, not lack, not white, but all americans understand black lives matter. O as we go into the election, social media, lack of understanding, and lack of presence in the government, accelerators, e can interfere with the election, for people rous going to vote, in order to catastrophic. Ing what is your response to the mportance of the government, using resources, understanding, able to know where these accelerants are, as we this very difficult time and very important time in democracy. Think thats a very important point youre making. He break from justice movements, black lives matter movement, is a particular target of these organizations. Obviously, you know, if youre a dont caremacist you for rarely justice and these are people who you want to stop from xpressing their views and reforming american democracy in a positive direction. The government needs to be this. Attention to the fusion centers, Law Enforcement investigative gencies, and so on, need to be watching these movements very, very carefully. Monitoring when they are getting into violence in the online space, working with academics movements to e keep on top of these trends and i feel strongly the government oversight tog some the online space to pressure the companies to be better on this front. This laim to be taking kind of material down yet it keeps popping up. Those are all very important things and youre going to have on it in the months leading up to the election to 2018. Ber, in four terrorist attacks in a month, including the tree of in just aogue attack, few weeks. And we could be facing something as we is coming up approach november. You. Hank rightnabb, dr. Beirich is in terms of actions of 2018, which allows certain candidates really take advantage of the divide thats going on, or be going on in this country. The Second Amendment has been an instigator to divide people. The secondchallenged amendment, to my knowledge, in the United StatesCongress Since meaning, to amend the constitution. Does guns what role have, and the provoking of the along with thet, potential hate speech, impacting the election Going Forward . My question again to you, how important it is for the resources and understanding to be played into a real response to gun safety laws that have promoted . Ms. Mcnabb . Lost my logies but i connection for about the last five minutes. In. Just logging back what role do guns play in the elections, the provoking of the second meaning using the Second Amendment as an excuse against people who really want gun safety. Of these issues provoking eaceful what we would want to be Peaceful Elections in 2020 ut accelerants would use these components to disrupt elections . Hat i said before, there were terrorist acts during the 2018 election. Bviously, skewing people to believe you needed a gun toting law and order, to win, as opposed to someone who wants nation together. What does that do in adding to accelerants approach to Peaceful Demonstrations . Bring power. Power that an ordinary person have, and therwise some people are abusing that power. Hey are using guns to intimidate and in the worst Case Scenario they will use their guns to kill. Its not just guns. Arrested los vegas brought an accelerant. They were planning on bombing people. Car er recent arrest was a bomb. Another one was a man who wanted to blow up a hospital with a car bomb. Its not just guns. Its just guns are visible and they are very intimidating. Its anything thats going to cause protestors to be afraid to go out. The presence of a large armed group. Chairman, thank you very much for that. Clearairman, i think its that this hearing is vital to our actions that should be taken and, in particular, dealing with the actions by the government. Idly by, they cant be leaning and giving one group over the ther, and particularly in boogaloo, we want to of dealing unting with, particularly the jewish community, and i know that were i look forward to moving on some of these issues particularly before the november election. Make a very strong stand against these actions and against these accelerants. So with that, mr. Chairman, i back. Thank you. Ts clear that there is a massive intersection here between protecting our law nforcement officials, protecting the rights of millions of people, to be her, justice all for racial in this country, and protecting constitution our to be upheld. Action on our re part. Respecting all americans, thank you, i yield back. I thank the witness for their valuable testimony. Nd the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee, they have additional questions for the witnesses. To respond expeditiously, without objection, Committee Records for 10 days. 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