We are at a moment where our democracy is at stake. Where are leadership role of the world is at stake for the lives of tens of thousands of americans are on the line with incompetence and callous leadership that could care less. Weve got to change that. Good afternoon i am an opinionpehart writer for the Washington Post for this is Washington Post live is also special live recording of my podcast. Former president obamas first term susan rice was the bouncer was the ambassador to the united nations, and in the second term she was Obamas National Security advisor. Today, she is a private citizen. Toughthe author of love, my story of the things worth fighting for. And under serious consideration to be joe bidens of Vice President ial running mate. Welcome back for the third time to the podcast, ambassador susan rice welcome. Thank you so much, it is great to be with you. Host one minute before we came on air here that Trump Administration dropped the plan to Deport International Students in online classes and your reaction was to applaud. Explain. Susan do the happy dance. [laughter] such a misguided stupid decision that they took in the first place. International students are a critical part of our university structure, our college campuses. They bring talent, they bring diversity, they bring resources. And to lock them out simply because their campus has decided by virtue of the pandemic that they need to conduct Classes Online in the fall was callous and extraordinarily counterproductive. I have not had a chance to read in detail the reporting on it. But it looks like the Trump Administration saw that their effort to defend this policy in court was unlikely to succeed , and they backed down. It seems to be a victory for our colleges and universities, our students across this country and across the world. Because so much of our appeal, our competitiveness, and our soft power depends on people around the world wanting to come here to learn and study and bring their skills and talents. This is a good day. Host ambassador, lets keep talk about Foreign Policy. Originally i was going to start this interview talking about the election in poland and the news of the reelection of polands president. He is an ally of President Trump and a supporter of the right wing law and justice party. He has been condemned by the eu. I am wondering, how if you think, President Trumps behavior in the Foreign Policy space, his support for leaders like this has contributed to the rise of illiberal nationalists and autocratic regimes around the world. Certainly legitimized the rise of elected autocrats. Insee that increasingly different parts of the world. Poland is the most recent example. It is unfortunate because poland as an important part of nato, an important part of the year. Important part of the eu. In a direction where its values and approach step withtely out of the other members of the alliance. It suggests particularly when it comes to the eu of their could be in jeopardy down the road if there is a further move towards antidemocratic policies and structures. Ambassador, is it possible for the alliance to even survive if the superpower in the alliance, the United States, is not even to bother to champion the small d democratic ideals that have been the alliance for more than seven decades . Susan the Nato Alliance is under duress. Almost entirely because of President Trumps callous disregard for the purposes and the interest of this alliance. Our alliance with nato is built on common values. Built on interest that we stand together as north American Allies and north atlantic allies allies. And europe broadly with those threats to our sovereignty and integrity which come chiefly from russia. And when the United States questions the values of our alliances, turns it into a transactional arrangement, when President Trump decides to unilaterally withdraw a third of our forces from germany without even consulting with the german government, and calls her adversaries from russia to china to north korea, while putting our allies in a very difficult position, it does great damage to the alliance. That is one of the many reasons we need change. I do not think nato and are leadership role in the world can withstand four more years of donald trump. That is why we need change and leadership in the form of joe biden, who comes out of the bipartisan american tradition of supporting our alliances, understanding who our friends are into our adversaries are, and what are leadership and strength is enhanced when we can bring partners and allies with us. Host we will talk more about joe biden in a moment. Lets keep talking about russia. We were talking for a little bit about the news that broke that the u. S. Had received intelligence suggesting russia paid taliban fighters to kill american troops in afghanistan. This is what you wrote for an times. The new york at best hour commanderinchief is derelict in duty with the National Security process that is putting our country and those who where its uniform at great risk. The United States is being run by liars and winds catering to a radical president actively advancing with our are charged a series nefarious interest. Is it incompetence or treason . They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I do not use the word treason. Both are maybet happening at once. We have a president who could care less about how extraordinary intelligence that the Intelligence Community deemed credible enough to put in the president s Daily Briefing, the most important and exclusive product they create that indicates the russians are paying telegram forces, taliban affiliated forces to kill american men and women in afghanistan. The United States president does nothing when that was brought to him. I believe it was brought to him in written form and earlier by one of my successors, john bolton. Weeks after that information came to public light , President Trump has said and done nothing critical of russia, did not indicate any sense of concern or urgency for the safety of our forces in battle, has not to anybodys knowledge initiated any actions to respond to russia. They said, we do not believe it is true, so we will not bother with it. But the Intelligence Committee community believes it is true or they would not have put it in the president ial Daily Briefing. Even more so into a product called the wire which has been the most widely disseminated pieces of intelligence that the u. S. Government produces. It goes everywhere including to capitol hill staffers. This had to be a piece of information in which they had a good degree of confidence, if not 100 certainty, which is never the case. President trump has done nothing. He has left our forces vulnerable and bare. Either he is doing that at of some mysterious motivation to serve putins interest or which we have seen Many Disparate pieces of evidence over the course of the last four years, but no overarching explanation. Or he is running a National Security process where the people around him are so scared, so incompetent that they are unwilling or unable to bring to him the information he must have to serve effectively as commanderinchief to protect our forces in the field. Either way you look at it, it is a disaster. Either way you look at it, the message to Vladimir Putin is that he can attack americans anywhere in the world with impunity, and be invited to join the g7. Host you anticipated the question i was going to ask, is it possible at all that the president of the United States was not briefed, did not know about this intelligence . Judging by the answer you gave, it is virtually impossible he did not know. Susan here is what i believe, i believe it was put in his president ial Daily Briefing. I believe he often does not read and that he always does not read his president ial Daily Briefing. Any National Security advisor worth his or her salt would have read the Daily Briefing even if their boss does not. And when they saw that would have, they done what i would have done, walk directly into the oval office and brief the president of the United States orally if they knew he was not going to see it in writing. And say to the president , we have this deeply concerning information about russia. I am what you work with the Intelligence Community to run it to ground and validate it. In the meantime, i will work with the other agencies and principles to pull together options for you to respond, and i will keep you posted. If the Current National zakaria advisor did not do that, that would be an abdication of his most basic responsibilities. If he did do that, then the president is lying again. I also believe is that john thatn, who has hinted information similar to this came to light in 2019 while he was still National Security advisor, he would certainly not have been intimidated to bring that information to the attention of the president. I believe one way or another the president knew and has chosen not to act. Followup question, given everything you said in its entirety in response to this, is the president of the United States a National Security threat to the United States . Think by virtue of his dereliction of duty, his failure to protect americans whether on the battlefield in afghanistan, or here at home in the face of a grave threat from coronavirus, penchant of bizarre cozying up to our adversaries and doing Vladimir Putins bidding is in fact acting against the interests of the United States. That is about as friendly as i can put it. We have a president who is acting against the interest of the United States. Host we also have a president who likes to spin conspiracy disseminate conspiracy theories. One of them is that president obama and the Obama Administration spied on his 2016 campaign. In an energy a with the Christian Broadcasting Network in june he said, it is treason. When i came out a long time ago, i said they have been spying on my campaign. They have been taping. That is a modern day version of taping. They have been spying on my campaign. Did that happen . Susan you know and i know and most of the sentient american itple know, absolutely no, did not happen, that is false, another lie designed to deflect from the president s own bizarre relationship with russia, to distract from much validated reality that russia interfered in the 2016 election to benefit donald trump, and President Trump is in some dream fever dream about the Obama Administration, when all we tried to do was execute despite the Trump Administration, incoming administrations reluctance, the most responsible transition we possibly could. I presided over a process at the National Security council will be prepared over 100 individual briefing papers for the incoming National Security advisor. I spent 12 hours in four separate sessions briefing my successor on all of the important issues that might arise, or that were on the table , ranging from russia to china to pandemic preparedness. Was, despite the bizarre nature of the election, despite President Trumps strange behavior before, during and after, our approach was to do our utmost in a responsible handoff from wanted administration to the other, just as president bush had done for barack obama. Host one of those papers you mentioned, a paper on pandemic come one was a 69 page paper that when we spoke in april you described as pandemics for dummies. You said when we spoke in april that the idea of a pandemic was keeping me up at night because we have not begun to hit the top. The curve here as for the president , you said, rags. He b if we hadnt done anything maybe 2. 2 million would have died. So of the 240,000 is a good outcome. And what circle of hell is that a good outcome . Thats what you spoke to me in the podcast in april. Is it safe to say in three months later, your assessment has not changed. It has gotten worse. Not only did President Trump do nothing in january and february but brushing this off as seasonal flu. Not only was he slow to recommend the shutdown of various states when they were in the throes of the first part of this crisis in march and april, then he came behind that and all too quickly in the interest of his own reelection, and in the interest of his own personal the safetyt to help and economy of the united prematureampion the reopening of various states. What we are reading now is the result of that extraordinarily irresponsible rush to reopen. We are seeing it tragically in parts of the west and south which were among the states that were the first to reopen. Withouto so rapidly basic precautions like mandating the use of masks. Badas gone from very differently worse, and the numbers bear that out. It is frightening to contemplate how high the death toll may go. So long as donald trump is putting his own interest ahead of that of the health and welfare and economic wellbeing of the American People. Now he is championing reopening all schools everywhere with full class sizes and life teaching regardless of the circumstances at the local level. Nothing could be more irresponsible. He is willing to second price the health and safety of our children, their teachers, the staff at the schools in order to convey the false reality, the false message that america is back and ready to reopen. If we had done what people in countries in europe did, which is to wait until the curve was truly bent, until the infection rate had gone down, and the number of new infections was close to zero before beginning the process of reopening. Had we done it gradually and responsibly and mandated things like masks, and had adequate testing and contact tracing, we would be in a much better place in our schools, and much of the country would be able to reopen with minimal risk come the beginning of the school year. Now they face this pacific horrific choice of opening prematurely and putting all those kids and adults and everybody at enhanced risk, or kids will be forced to lose time and quality of learning. It did not have to be this way. Host ambassador rice, given the spikes that have been happening around the country, i take it you do not think schools should reopen, period. Susan you have to look at this the local level. You have to look at what is the disease doing . How fast is it spreading . What is the reinfection rate . What is the Positivity Rate . There will be places where things are relatively better than other places. In the socalled hotspots of the south and west, when schools are set to reopen in august, it is very difficult to see how they can do so safely. And even when they do reopen, the cdc guidance before it was manipulated, if it is going to be manipulated, and the advice of experts has been that it is very important to maintain social distancing in schools of at least six feet between students in a classroom. Cochair in washington, d. C. Of our mayors reopen d. C. Advisory group. And we worked through all of these issues. I was particularly involved in the educational aspect of our recommendation. The reality is you cannot reopen safely if you cannot maintain that spacing. In most schools do not have the physical space to reduce class sizes by half or more, which is what you are talking about to thate students to have degree of space. In many places, even when the risks are moderate to low, you were not going to have every student in the classroom all day every day. You have to have some kind of c ohoarding, or certain amount of days on in a certain amount of days off, and in the off days, do virtual learning. And then youll have kids, by virtue of their own healths stances are those of their parents or grandparents do not feel like it safe to return to school. You need to have continued Online Learning even in places where it is possible to begin to have some version of inperson teaching. Host so ambassador rice, do you think we as a nation, as we did earlier in the pandemic, should we locked down again western mark should the states shut down and stay at home again for at weeks to or three really truly bend the curve . In some parts of the country i think unfortunately we must. I think we see recognition of in california were Governor Newsom ordered the bars to close, restaurants closed for churchesning, gyms and in major population centers. Be on lockdown. Everybody wants to get back to work and school, but to do so safely and sustainably requires we get the curve bent and keep it down. Also it requires each of us as individuals recognize that we have to look out for ourselves and our fellow citizens. You may be healthy, i may be healthy, my kids may be healthy, but that does not mean we cannot get seriously ill with this disease, nor does it mean we are not in a position to affect others more vulnerable. We are not coming together with a sense of common purpose and unity or effort that is necessary to defeat the virus. I blame that substantially on President Trump, because if we had leadership that was calling on us to come together, that was preaching science and facts rather than bleach and hydroxyquinoline. Sober responsible leadership that put the interests of the American People , our health and welfare and economic wellbeing first rather than his personal, political , wetions to be reelected would be in a far safer and better place. Host lets move to another pandemic or epidemic we have been dealing with in this country, and that is racism. Lets talk about race. Have you visited black lives matter here in washington . I am also wondering, do you think we are at an Inflection Point with National Protests that we have seen, the black lives matter protests in small towns and big cities around the country, are we at an Inflection Point, or are we having a detour on the well trod road we are used to going down . Usan it depends on us i think what we saw over the last couple of months has been extraordinary in the wake of George Floyds tragic murder, and many others before him. We saw americans from all walks , latino,white, black native american, rich, poor, in every state of this country, in towns large and small, old people, young people, babies, all coming together largely peacefully to say once and for all that we live in a fundamentally Unequal Society where people who look like you and me are treated differently from people who do not. That that is unacceptable. And that we have in fact after 400 years a reality that remains of systemic racism that needs to be rooted out. And at this moment, which is become a movement results in nothing more than confederate and myeing taken down, hometown Football Team finally changing its name, and confederate monuments being put in museums, then it will be another momentous moment wasted. That we cannot allow. Beyond need, jonathan, the symbolism and the on steps that might be taken at the local level to address particular problems with policing in our respective communities, we need systemic reform to confront systemic racism. And that systemic reform can only come through the acts of responsible congress and the president willing to sign those reforms into law. The justice ine policing act and much more in the criminal justice realm, but we have to deal with educational disparities, health disparities, housing, lack of job opportunities, environmental degradation in low income communities of color in this country. Are whatese things Vice President biden spoke about an economic agenda that empowers people who have been left out and takes us into the 21st century economy and puts us at the forefront of things like clean energy. These are things we can do if we have a president who cares and has a vision and a commitment to rooting out systemic racism and inequality. And if we have a congress, particularly a senate and a democratic house, that is willing to back him up. That is why i say it depends. If we vote for change, if we vote for the meaning of this movement at the ballot box, yes, it can become much more than a moment and much more than symbolism. Squeeze in want to this audience question before i end on asking you about Vice President biden. Karl rudd wants to know what did you think about the idea of defunding the police . Amb. Rice i think the following. First of all, im not a fan of the terminology defunding the police because it has been manipulated and misunderstood by many. I think there is a place in certain local circumstances depending on what is going on in the particular area to reimagine, reenvision the role police play. To get them out of some of the work they customarily do that more akin to social work than traditional policing. I think they have to be attached to the community and responsible to the community. And yes, there are places where there can be some responsible reallocation of resources. There is no onesizefitsall model. There is no cookiecutter approach you can apply. So i largely agree with Vice President biden and representative jim clyburn and others that it is a reimagining, reinvesting, and investing Additional Resources in our community that have suffered as the solution, rather than a vague terminology that has been hijacked and manipulated by the rightwing, unfortunately. Taking the goodwill of people who really want to see positive change and turning it on its head through the term defunding. Can i say one other thing . President trump likes to beat up people who have called for defunding and to say extraordinarily obnoxious and offensive things about the black lives matter movement. But yesterday, he called for defunding Public Schools that dont conform with his autocratic dictate that they reopen regardless of the health of their students and faculty. This is how upside down everything is coming out of this white house. Jonathan lets talk about this Vice President thing with talk , lets talk about Vice President biden. You worked closely with him during the two terms in the Obama Administration. Theres a great picture of him giving you a hug after your mother, lois dixonrice, passed away. Do you have the kind of relationship with Vice President biden where you could cuss each other out behind closed doors at 9 00 a. M. And be on the same page before the cameras at 9 15 . Amb. Rice yes. [laughter] it would end with a hug because that is who he is. Joe bidens what you see. Hes warm, empathetic, hes decent. He does not use a lot of curse words, by the way. But, i cant always claim the same, just in all candor. The reality is, joe biden is the kind of leader who welcomes robust discussion and debate, looks for people who are unafraid to tell him the truth behind closed doors. But then, we are one team, one fight. Once the president makes a decision as barack obama did when joe biden was his Vice President. Whether the Vice President had recommended that course of action or not, he was foursquare behind barack obama in implementing that policy. And that is what he deserves in his own Vice President whomever he may select to fill that role. Jonathan ok, aside from candor which is something you would bring to the role if you were selected for that role, what is the one other attribute you have that would serve a Biden Administration well . Amb. Rice you are constraining me to one . [laughter] jonathan hey. Have at it. Amb. Rice no, im joking with you. Jonathan just one. Amb. Rice i think the most important attribute that i have is almost two decades of experience in senior ranks of the executive branch. I understand how to make the government deliver results. I ran the process at the National Security council dealing with the most complex and difficult crises we have faced in the world. Whether it was the ebola epidemic or the rise of isis or how to confront china. Astever it is, my job National Security adviser in particular was to bring the agencies together to tackle the problem at hand. That is what we are going to isd when i hope joe biden the next president of the United States. We are going to have to tackle a pandemic and an economic crisis on the order of nothing we have seen since the great depression. We will have to renew our leadership role in the world. And lead the world through this pandemic and economic recovery. We are going to have to deal with the Racial Justice issues andave been talking about an equality agenda where we can finally and immediately make the adjustments and reforms necessary to redress the systemic inequalities and systemic racism. So one needs to bring the government together in common purpose with an understanding of the budget, how to work with congress and how to get the business and the elements of government harnessed towards shared objectives. Jonathan, that is what i have done for the bulk of my career. I have done it predominantly in the realm of Foreign Policy, but Foreign Policy now is straight, climate, pandemics and global health. It is a wide span of issues. And those skills and that experience translates into making government function whatever the agenda is. Jonathan ambassador rice, last question. I mentioned your mother, lois rice, who is known as the mother of the pell grant. Your father, emmett rice, was an economist and former governor of the Federal Reserve. You come from a storied washington family. Im wondering, what do you think both your parents would be saying to you or thinking right now to know that their daughter is being talked about as a possible Vice President of the United States . Amb. Rice i wish so much, jonathan, that i could talk with them and have that conversation with them. This is a moment where i miss their counsel and their loving advice more than almost any. I think they would be thinking about their parents and their grandparents. I come from immigrants who came from jamaica to portland, maine in 1912 with no education. And nothing on my mothers side of the family. They saved and worked as a sent allnd a maid, and five of their kids to college and their children went on to become professionals. On my dads side, he was the grandson of slaves. And he was able to rise out of jim crow in the deepest form of segregation in South Carolina in the 1920s and 1930s, and serve tuskegee and serve with the storied airmen and go on to get his phd in economics and join the Federal Reserve board. I think they would be looking back on saying what a blessing that in this country, you can be an immigrant, you can be the descendent of slaves and you can still reap the opportunities of this great country. Now the reality is, jonathan, ive been extraordinarily blessed and my parents were extraordinarily blessed. Far too many, far, of us do not have the same blessings and opportunities that i had or my parents had. So i think what they would be saying now is, best i can guess, is to do what i have always done wishes to serve in whatever capacity makes sense and bring my utmost to it and do it for the benefit of the people of this country. Not for myself, not for any ambition that i might have, but serving the people at a time divided, when there is so much suffering and loss of life and economic hardship. Where the integrity of our democracy and are very National Unity are all at risk. This is a moment where i think they would say to me if you are asked in whatever capacity, youve got to get in there and do your best and give back for all of the blessings youve had, ive had, and they have had. Jonathan ambassador susan rice, thank you very much for coming back to the podcast. Good luck. We are keeping our eye out to see what happens. Thank you very much again for coming on Washington Post live. Amb. Rice thank you for having me, jonathan. Jeff sessions will not be returning to the u. S. Senate after being defeated in alabamas republican primary runoff. The former attorney general was running to reclaim the seat he stepped down from in 2017 to serve in the Trump Administration. Instead, former Auburn University head football coach Tommy Tuberville will move on to face democratic senator doug jones in the general election. Alreadyrville has received the endorsement of President Trump. Cspans washington journal. Every day we are taking your calls live on the day, on the news of the day. And we will discuss policy issues that impact you. Coming up wednesday morning, New York Times jim tinkersly discusses economic proposals offered by Presumptive Democratic nominee joe biden and the role the economy will play. Aboutth connolly talks how the pandemic has impacted the opioid epidemic. Watch cspans washington journal live at 7 00 eastern wednesday morning. Join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, Text Messages and tweets. Heres a look at our live coverage wednesday. At noon eastern on cspan, the House Homeland Security committee holds a hearing on the health and treatment of Migrant Children in federal custody. On cspan2, the House AppropriationsCommittee Meets at 9 a. M. Eastern to consider 2021 spending levels for Homeland Security operations, financial and other programs. On cspan3, the House Oversight and Reform Committee hears from cybersecurity experts who ask the creation of a National Cyber director to streamline the federal governments response towards separate tax across agencies. That gets underway at 12 p. M. Eastern cspan. Org has live coverage wednesday of the House Small Business Committee hearing on proposals for aiding Small Businesses affected by the coronavirus. It starts at 1 p. M. Eastern. The House Appropriations committee debated the 695 billion 2021 Defense Department spending bill. Following opening remarks, lawmakers offered amendments focused on the authorization for use of military force, the Guantanamo Bay military prison, and the trumpet administrations southern border wall