Coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online or listen on the free radio app. Be part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feeds. Cspan, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. This week on the communicators, our guest is representative frank lucas, republican of oklahoma, and the Top Republican on the science, tech, and space committee. Joining us as our guest reporter gopal ratnam of cq roll call. Thank you for being on the communicators this week. Congressman, what have we learned when it comes to technology in the last couple of months, and whats the role of congress in advancing that . Rep. Lucas i think we have come to finally appreciate as a nation how absolutely important it is that we maintain our technological edge and that we move forward. We make sure it is accessible to all. I cant imagine as a member of congress how we would have functioned in this pandemic without the ability to use a variety of conferencing and communications technology. Not just the traditional phone calls that we use for our Republican House conference, but ofex, and a whole variety platforms to move information back and forth. Thats not just in politics. Listening to my friends in industry, it has been an them whonecessary for have only spent a minimal amount of time in office the last 90 days just as i have. So whats the role in congress advancing that . Rep. Lucas we are a facilitator. This is something that goes all the way back to the telecommunication act of the 1930s. Things that essentially everyone in the country is going to have the best technology. If it is going to be widely available to everyone, congress helps facilitate that. There are number of universal funds that help initially support the telephone lines that now help broadband in a variety of other communication sources. Congress,argue that first the military and nasa, we would have never had the Telecommunications Satellites we have now. Somewhat argue we would still be in some form of transistor world as opposed to the computer chips we operate now. Fundinghere to research and through a variety of sources to, in my opinion, in a positive way, to encourage the sector to move forward. Peter if there an infrastructure bill in congress, would you support broadband and technology being part of that infrastructure bill . Rep. Lucas absolutely. Broadband is one of the great equalizers of our society. If you live in an affluent community, an urban area where you have the access to the greatest amount of bandwidth, the technology to move that forward. Whereve in Rural America perhaps the providers of these technologies have miles between challenging economically challenging areas around the country. May be because of a lack of financial ability, people dont have access to that technology. Encourage the we equalization of that. Everyone needs a chance to advance. Everyone needs a chance to prosper. Broadband, the internet, modern communications is to us what pencil and tablet was to my greatgrandparents 100 years ago. Peter lets bring our guest , from cq gopal ratnam roll call into our conversation. Gopal thank you for having me, peter. Congressman lucas, thank you for taking this time to speak. Ill ask you about the proposal you had, that you put out in january asking for an increase in spending on federal r d. Among the things you called for is a boost in spending on Artificial Intelligence, biotech and quantum computing. Given the pandemic we are amidst now, 120,000 plus americans have died, is there anything that you would change in terms of areas of focus, areas of research where such federal spending to be applied . Rep. Lucas i think what we have seen in recent weeks demonstrates not just the need, but the magnitude of the resources that are necessary. When legislation was being put together, my focus was how do we stay ahead of our International Competitors . How do we make sure we are on the front edge on all of these technologies . Now with the pandemic problems we face, there are extra issues. Its been devastating to many of the Research Universities and private Research Foundations and this literal shutdown we have gone through. How do we restart that . I along with members of the committee have had conversations with various entities out there, public and private universities, across landscapes. Whats going to happen to graduate students, Research Projects . Doctoral students in their program. How many people will be available when we do restart . How do we define restart . How much of the Research Done will be lost . Are the deadlines on the grants and programs that these highly skilled and technical people, bright individuals, are there limits to stepping back in . Try to work through all of that. I dont know we will truly appreciate the damage perhaps for months or years to come. That is all subject to addressing the fundamental issue of the pandemic. On the science committee, weve very focused on the National Science foundation, cdc and all of those entities that develop the skills and research to create the vaccine. Until we have a way to address i vaccinateblem my cattle for a dozen Different Things and im very sensitive about usda and state Department Working to keep viruses out of this country. But until we can develop an effective vaccine program, when does this end . Is this like polio in the 1940s and 1950s in the United States . That is before my birth, but i have listen to my parents and grandparents talk about the fear every latesummer about the latest outbreak. That was addressed with a vaccine. Treatmentve antibody to address covid19. But even then, i suspect this is like the flu, it will be with us every year for the rest of human existence. Go enthusiasmins the by the pharmaceutical companies. Gopal you mentioned as a farmer, the number of vaccines you have to impart to your animals. In that context, i want to ask you a little bit about the overall science and scientific culture in the country. Proposal,en your you talk about china is racing ahead the United States or trying to get ahead of us in a variety of areas and they have increased their r d spending the last decade or so. It seems as if in the United States, there is a sliding back of scientific culture. There is the growing antivaccine movement. The republican party, for example, back in the mid1990s was advocating for an office of Technology Assessment which is part of congress. How do you place the scientific culture in the country . Is there an antiscience mentality that could potentially slowingibuting to this of federal expenditure, r d in other areas . Rep. Lucas the focus in congress and my time has been more away from science and defense, more away from brickandmortar towards Immediate Gratification and social programs. Thats been done by not just republicans, but by democrats. Anngs that create immediate response. I would suggest part of the problem is the unintended consequences of the wonderful concept of the internet and the constant freeflowing information and discussion. Not all the freeflowing information and discussion is factually accurate. In many ways, the internet is more like a gossip chamber than a thoughtful philosophical debate laboratory. Im not sure how we overcome that. In my town meetings, and i did 32 live meetings a year before the pandemic. I want to go back to live town meetings. You will be surprised the amount of time in recent years i would spend discussing something that has come off the internet. Sometimes reasonable. Sometimes so outlandish that youd have to think about it for a moment before you could answer it in a logical fashion. But, all these things together are producing this. An effectiveen covid19 vaccine develops and available in mass distribution who really is willing to take a chance. If you are comfortable enough that by not vaccinating yourself or your loved ones that everyone else in the neighborhood is going to do that and you will be safe, thats beyond selfish. Thats the underlying mentality. We have the safest Health Standards in the world. The most regulated pharmaceutical programs in the world. Lawyersan army of waiting to address any fallout. Im confident in where we are. I just want to make sure that the scientific community, whether it is Public Research or private research, has the ability, the resources and the individual to do that. Things like the National Science foundation. Just an amazing accomplishment. Even areas like darpa, the department of Defense Research program. Sometimes you have to look down the trail, as we say in the Third District of oklahoma, a month, a year, a decade or a century in order to make these investments. This Immediate Gratification, the internet, prioritizing shortterm spending, it is all a big part. That is why when i became the opportunity to become Ranking Member of the science committee, my focus has been to rebuild the bipartisan nature of the committee. The culture i came from from the agriculture committee. The culture of would like to see on the other committee, financial services. We need to get back to where it is a team effort for the common good. Right now in congress, does not matter who the majority is or who the minority is, that is hard to accomplish. Everyone wants to go to the corner and scream. Well, that guarantees you so much time on television each a talking head from the right or the left, but it does not develop a thoughtful policy for the longterm future. Peter that said, how would you describe your relationship with the chair of the science representative Bernice Johnson . Rep. Lucas i have a wonderful relationship with her. Shes oldschool, calm, focused, rational. Willing to work across the line. Now we have some excitable democrats and republicans on the committee. Thats the nature of every committee. The chairwoman and i, i think we have a really Good Relationship and i am comfortable in saying if the roles are reversed someday, and we have reelections every two years, anything can happen, i think i would have just as strong a relationship with her if she were my Ranking Member. Peter goapl ratnam. Gopal one of the things you talk about in your proposal is how china is focused on Artificial Intelligence and has promised to become a global front on that particular by the end of this decade. Now, what would it take in the United States to keep pace or stay ahead . Is it just more money . Is it attracting more talented people from around the world . Is it sort of improving the scientific culture and the basic k12 . Rep. Lucas i think it is a combination of all of those things. As a percentage of gdp, the money we spend on science is not what it once was. That needs to be addressed. That is for the appropriations process. Entities like the National Science foundation. Stem, we create the pipeline for the young engineers, those young mathematicians, those young individuals. Making sure that in stem programs that we are focused on the brightest and the greatest possible potential, no matter what part of the country you come from, no matter what background you have. If you have the ability, encourage and develop those skills. That is an important part of the process. Also, many of my colleagues on the committee are focused on how assets . Rotect those theres a lot of discussion in the committee that are part of a number of competitors efforts around the world not just in developing their own skills, but acquiring as Much Technology as can possibly be acquired through whatever means are available from the rest of us. Property rights matter, intellectual Property Rights matter. How do we balance all those things out . It is a comprehensive package. Unfortunately for most of my lifetime, we have been so successful in this country that the citizens and congress and technically the leadership of many administrations have taken this for granted. Thats not the case anymore. The chinese with their 2025 program. Made in 2025 is the way the reference it. They are bound and determined that the way to jump ahead of us economically and at the other way is to seize the scientific frontier. If you dont have to create the science from scratch, it is cost effective. Those are all issues we have to deal with. Right now, covid19 and the pandemic have the country looking for the scientific enterprise for help, for a response. I think we have to use this opportunity. To move us forward. Gopal. Go ahead, gopal i was going to ask, one of the strengths of the american scientific and the price of the last three decades has been the capacity and the ability to attract and retain some of the best talent from around the world. Even today, some of the top Artificial Intelligence experts at stanford are literally firstgeneration immigrants. Now is the current immigration approach somehow running counter to this idea that the United States will continue to be a scientific leader . Because it seems as if the signals from the United States are sending out is basically saying dont come here. Is that running counter to goals to the ones you have of increasing more spending on r d and attracting talent . Rep. Lucas immigrants right now across the spectrum makes a variety of things more challenging. I represent 16 native american tribes in my district. 39 different tribes in oklahoma. I always remind my constituents when we have a discussion about immigration that unless you are an american indian, you are immigrant or you are the son of an immigrant. That is the rest of us. We need to be respectable of that. Whether it is the indentured english servants that with the first farmhands on the east orst or my german ancestors the chinese that build the railroad or the italians who made the mine, you have to respectful towards that. I understand the importance of maintaining the integrity of the country with physical and health security, but we have to draw upon the best and brightest possible people. The concept to me is still valid. In Enterprises Like science, like any business, and got us to where we are today. Where we have been without the scientists that fled europe in the 1930s . This would be a different world and it would not be a good world. Gopal would you say maybe the United States need to keep the door open for some of the brightest to come from around the world to universities and Research Labs . Rep. Lucas absolutely, but we have to have an orderly process governed by the rule of law. Most of my constituents are excited not so much about people who might come in with scientific skills, but the potential ability to add to the United States the base of knowledge. They are more concerned about unlimited immigration, voters on all directions. Again, the rule of law. There has to be an orderly structure. If you just leave the gates open, i dont know where we would put the extra billion or 2 billion people. I would not blame them for coming. Again, i am not a native american so i am a descendent of people who came over in some fashion. Peter congressman lucas, we have talked about investments. Were talking to you and you are in rural oklahoma today. What kind of telecommunications availability do you have where you are and when would you foresee 5g being in your home . Rep. Lucas first off, i am serviced by an independent phone company. They do a really good job considering how far out in the countryside i am. When i do a little speed check on my equipment, my access is approximately half the speed of my District Office in yukon, oklahoma. That is a percentage of whats available to me when i am in the Nations Capital in d. C. I adjust to it, i accommodate it. Elearly, it is not equitabl across the countryside and that is what the goal is. Using universal broadband to fund broadband and traditional phone lines. I cant give you an optimistic date. If the whole of a country has to prosper, we all have to have access. It will be difficult the farther and farther away we get. Right now on broadband development, communities that want to access the money for rural areas, if you take notice, they tend to want to deploy it in the very fringes of the suburbs. Again, customers for a mile versus miles per customer. I understand that. In the infrastructure bill, still we have to continue to push out in the countryside. I promise you the younger generation, for that matter anybody under 40, they are not going to live in an area where they dont have access to modern communications, if they dont have access to broadband with modern ability. That will continue to brain drain Rural America. Huaweido you think wh should be part of the development of broadband and 5g in the United States . Rep. Lucas with things i am familiar with and committees i serve on and my colleagues that serve on a variety of other committees, i am still a bit suspicious about huawei. Chinese model is so dramatically different than the western model. Trulytill practice political communism. In the bigger resources of the country, they still dominated in a state owned manner. I get inherently suspicious of that. I depend on my colleagues that have greater access to work on legislation that particularly goes after that point. Peter gopal. Onel speaking of huawei, of the things that i think some of the smaller telecom companies, both here in the u. S. Theelsewhere have said, advantage of using the huawei equipment is it is much less expensive. Two, they are providing this 5g bandwidth that is most ideal and can propagate long distances. For example, in rural part of oklahoma, it is probably more costeffective to set up huawei equipment then some of the more pricier ones. Are we doing the right thing here, but are we balancing those two kinds of needs . Or do you think the danger of working with, like you said, a communist partyled company to dangerous to consider that balance . Rep. Lucas if i thought there was going to be dramatic changes in the chinese political model, id probably have a more accommodating attitude. Im old enough to watch the video clips of tiananmen square. I have a sufficient understanding of the different political models, that i dont see them adopting our western culture in a variety of things. I believe if you simply go with price, ultimately, you may have time. Eatest short thats what happens when you dont have industry to pay for those things. You have the cheapest goods if you dont care how they are made, dont care where they come from, dont care about the net effect on your economy. But at what point do you no longer have anything left in the country to buy those goods and services with . Its a balance. Also the ever Culture Energy area in the agricultural productsea, we sell ag and Energy Products around the world and in asia in a big way. I understand the flow of commerce back and forth. I am not a onesided individual. There are just certain things where you cannot let an entity like the Chinese Government as it now functions to be in total control of critical elements of your society and future. Gopal one of the things that is really, from my reporting, i have seen propelling the chinese advances in Artificial Intelligence is the fact they have access to huge amounts of data. People, even in the context of a pandemic, they can force people to download apps and use them and track them. That a lot of experts believe is one of the reasons why they are able to make the kind of advances they are making now in Artificial Intelligence. Given the privacy concerns and the laws of the United States and how people value their privacy and a very uncomfortable handing over data, do you think the United States and china are on a level Playing Field when it comes to accessing peoples data to develop Artificial Intelligence technologies . Rep. Lucas no, we are not and it is unavoidable because of the cultural expectations are so different. If you say in the United States there should be one credit card and you do all your transactions on it, and master computer somewhere for the federal government to track everything you do. If your phone and all the other stuff went through the National System so they can track theything you can do, American Population would not stand for that. That is so contrary to the founding of the country. While there might be advantages to it, nonetheless, i dont believe we want to be ants ever marching in a Straight Line under someone elses instruction. If we are going to avoid that, then in the Technology Issues and scientific issues, we have to spend the money. We have to make sure that there is competition. Im a great believer in competition. I dont want to have only one product, whether it is u. S. Or chinese or european or whatever. But, we cant become so dependent on things that are so critically important from someone who is inherently the leadership. Theres a difference between the Chinese People and the leadership. There is a difference. But, where our values and views are so dramatically different china,e leadership in that just concerns me beyond belief. The pandemic in recent Current Events will take a look at all that. Peter final question, congressman lucas. You have been around for 14 terms in congress. This is an election year. Do you foresee any legislation regarding broadband, world broadband or 5g moving through the congress . Rep. Lucas i would say i expect the year to be concluded with ather an omnibus bill or continuing resolution, a funding bill. Thenature of the bodies, senate is so much different than the house, the culture, i expect legislation will wind up in one giant kebab in the end. Will there be a window of opportunity . Yes. What that means we will get to a point where we have a common agreement . A republican senate, a democrat house and president trump. That requires achieving some amazing consensus to get there on anything, on everything
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