I want to say thank you to our sponsor, bank of america, for this event. If you are on twitter or instagram, follow us with axios events or on the axios twitter axios account. Check news on axios. Com. Joining us right now, i want to get right to it, the man who i am very excited to talk to and i hope you are excited to hear from, coming to us from ofhesda, maine, founder like in a timid television, Robert Johnsonblack entertainment television, Robert Johnson. How are you . Robert im doing well. How are you . Dion im also doing well. Thank you so much for being with us. Robert my pleasure. Dion juneteenth is a particularly apt holiday for africanamericans because it is not come with the signing of a resolution or speech. It celebrates the day in 1865 where slaves who had been freed by president lincolns emancipation proclamation finally found out they were free and were able to some cases leave plantations where they were being held in bondage and in some cases not. One thing you are working on is a 40 trillion program for reparation 14 trillion program for reparations, which is revolutionary and deadly outside the box. Hear billionaire Robert Johnson advocating for is a man whothis can speak to why the American Dream israel and how anyone can become a millionaire. So why is billionaire Robert Johnson pushing for reparations of 14 trillion . Robert let me answer that question, but i want to give a little bit of a footnote to the issue of juneteenth. I think it indicates why reparations and other issues regarding the treatment of africanamericans slavery should be known as well. The actual emancipation of from thed not come emancipation proclamation, because when lincoln issued to that, the country was still in the civil war, there were not troops in the south to enforce the emancipation. Pretty much on paper. But it freed most slaves under the legal act, was something that was passed earlier was the compensation act. The compensation act said that when the u. S. Was at war against the south, they could seize property. Under the rebellion the government could take property. As a result the slaves were freed by the compensation act. The emancipation proclamation mobilized the country based on when it was written and what it stated. Now you move to juneteenth, and the fact that texas, while not in rebellion, the war was over in the other slave states, there were no union troops in texas. Slaves were not freed until one of the military generals arrive in texas with union troops and enforced the law that they had to be the slaves had to be free. Sure when we talk about reparations because we only have a few minutes here. Robert history is important as well. The point i want to make is when granger freed the slaves, he said you are free. However, if you are indigent Walking Around with nothing to do, you can be arrested, and you better find yourself some work to do. A my point is reparations is demand on the part of we benamericans thatw e made whole for the wealth that was stolen from slaves and periodd over a 300year factojure and de discrimination, and White America should recognize the debt and black america should be proud to accept of the atonement. I believe if that happens, we should see a Better Society with much more racial harmony, once you combined apology with forgiveness. 14 trillion in cash to every descendent of slaves. Dion what folks on the other side of the argument who dont believe reparations should happen say is that dr. Johnson is why we dont need reparations. He was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps, made a product ever but he loves, black and a timid television, and he made billions black and her timid television, and he made over a billion dollars. Robert the reason is because i am one in 40 million. You cfould at all the other people who make that kind of wealth and said they are five and 40 million. You should ask yourself, what would happen if there wereand slavesamericans no and africanamericans were treated with equal opportunity after slavery . Maybe there would be 500, 600 Robert Johnsons. Whats wrong with that . This is a country that we can equal opportunity for everyone, so why shouldnt we provide an equal langfield when you talk about one personapril Playing Field when you talk about one person 40 money dion i think what they think is that 14 trillion, somebody has got to pay that. Why should folks pay that money just for 40 or 50 more Robert Johnsons . Robert they should pay it because it is owed. The biggest wealth transfer that took place in this country has been slave labor going to plantation owners and people who own slaves, and that money circulated throughout this country for over 300 years. The one thing White America should know, slaves may have died, the children may have died, money doesnt die. Money can only circulate. Money multiplies. And every person who benefited from a slave dollar, that wage transfer, is still circulating in corporations and businesses and wealth income in america today. It is no secret that the net income of a white family is average, the net income of a black family is 17 ,000. That temple disparity can be traced directly back to the wall transfers that started with death wealth transfers that started withwealth transfers that started with slave labor. That is the best way to generate wealth, not having to pay for the work you get done. Dion the last question we have about a minute left that is the case why. What about how . You have a president who doesnt see it happening, you have assented that wont even take up a bill a senate that wont even take up a bill. Done . We get this robert two things. White America Needs to accept the need to atone for racism. Without that it wont happen. They will vote on the taxpayers. Taxpayers pay for Health Care Even though some people dont use it. Taxpayers pay for schools even though some people dont have children in schools. It is the same thing. 14took been over trillion over 30 years, break it out on a daily basis, 8 a day over 30 years. It is not a lot of money for forgiveness and it is the only thing that will bring this country back together. Dion mr. Johnson, thank you so much for joining us here. I really appreciate it. It was great to have you want. Robert thank you, my pleasure. Dion we go to now our secondguessed. He is the second guest. He is the honorable sylvester turner, mayor of the city of houston. Mr. Mayor, how are you . Mayor turner im doing fine, thanks for having me this morning. Dion thank you so much for being on. You have been a vocal advocate for change, and not just advocating for change, putting change in place. You pushed out a number of reforms on Police Department, banning chokeholds, issued a number of we cant wait principles that the campaign is an advocate for as well as pushing different measures in the city of houston. I want to talk about the push from advocates to defund the police. In your latest budget, you did the opposite. You gave police and asked her 20 million an extra 20 million for the upcoming fiscal year. People say the police need less funding and less power cap real reform and change. Whereas you have done the opposite even though you have clearly put in place some changes that are supposed to make this Department Better for the people they serve, regularly black folks. Particularly black folks. Mayor turner right, and i am is and what people are saying. Understand what people are saying. Every Police Department, everyone is different. When you look about the amount of dollars we spent per capita on Police Officers, we are among the 10 major metropolitan cities, we are number 10 in terms of how much we spent per capita on police. In the city of houston, to give a comparison, the city of houston has 5300 Police Officers covering 640 square miles. If you compare that to chicago chicago has roughly 12,000 to 30,000 Police Officers 13,000 Police Officers covering dion i think the idea is and that we need more or less please, is that police, it is that those funds should go to other organizations mayor turner what i believe people are asking for, they are asking for good policing. They are asking for policing system that is accountable. They are going beyond that. Want us to be investing in communities and neighborhoods that have been overlooked and n for decades,i just like the one i grew up in. I grew up in the north side of houston. I still live in that same neighborhood. Theypeople are wanting, want us to make sure that we are investing in quality, affordable housing. Quality parks. They want to make sure were providing economic and business job opportunities. Access to health care dion but i think what they also said they want is this issue of policing to change, and what people say is that for that to change, money has to be taken from the police mayor turner i would disagree in houstons case. I cant speak to what is happening in other cities, but i can speak to what is happening in this city. It is important, number one, we ask police to do everything, too much. We established crisis intervention teams. And in to beef that up, many ways take it from classified Police Officers is funding to multipleresponding to multiple Behavioral Health issues, substance abuse, Domestic Violence situations. There are a number of things we need to look at, alternative ways of addressing these issues, challenges within our community. The Police Department has to be viewed differently in terms of how you are making sure you are addressing the needs within this community. So i understand the cry, and were listening to people, but i want to expand more resources on crisis diversion, not having to call upon police to address our homeless situation. We need to be addressing that in a more holistic fashion. Not having to call on police to address mental and Behavioral Health issues dion what you are saying and your critics are saying is the same thing. I think what the disconnect where the disconnect comes is they think that you cannot fund those things and the police at the highlevel 20 million for police that cannot go to Mental Health. Mayor turner i disagree, and there is no one model that applies across the board dion we are now in the middle of an economic crisis. I would assume that your city as well as other cities around the country are going to be dealing with less resources, not more. How do you distribute all that money went they need more funding . Mayor turner it requires a holistic approach, requires a citywide approach. The business community, your nonprofits all have to participate. Before the george floyd incident occurred, when i came in 2016, i said to the people in the city we have to focus on communities that have been under resourced. This initiative called the complete community initiative. They were driving resources directly into these neighborhoods to bring about transformation. What people are wanting is not incremental change. They want substantive, fundamental, transformational change. It doesnt happen overnight, but you have to put in place the infrastructure and the means and the initiative to bring about that change, and that is what we are doing in the city. I cant speak to other cities, but what we are doing in this city. Dion that doesnt come from directing money away from death mayor turner no, because in the city of houston we have underfunded our Police Department for years. We have the same number of Police Officers today we had a in 1991. Im sorry . Dion sorry, we all have about a minute left. One last question before we go, and thanks again for your time these new reforms you put in place, no chokeholds, no stranglehold like chokeholds, forcing further warnings to be given whewn officers do break these rules, there are some exceptions, like an objective reason can be found i think is the wording. How do you keep that room being the get out of jail free card for these officers the same way that i feared for my life has been used by a number of Police Officers who killed unarmed black civilians . Mayor turner you have to hold people accountable, and let me just say, we implemented we cant wait, but that is the first step. There are additional reforms that are coming. We took a look at the independent Police Oversight board, to see how we can strengthen that and can make it even more impactful and effective. So the steps put in place in terms of the executive order next week the city council meeting, we are having a hearing where were listening to people who marched and protested and devastated to get their input. I dont want anyone to assume that the executive orders we put in place is the end of the line. These reforms are constantly taking place. It is not one step and on. Making sure you have the right people in these positions, command positions, supervisory positions and mayors and City Council Persons who can follow up on the internet of these orders were put in place. Follow up on the intent of those that we put in place. You for being here, that was a great conversation. Im sure he was what he said that he was like be a part of it. Now, were going to turn it over to the axios ceo. Thank you fornd making this conversation possible. Week, we sat down with a series of meaningful conversations with the ceo of bank of america. Here are some clips from that conversation. As a historian who studied the movements across the 500 years of history of africanamericans and black americans in society, how do we handle this movement and that context . , how doyou think now you think about it in a Historical Context in the industry . Possible tot is frame this in a Historical Context. This is a hundreds of years struggle. What is powerful to me is that as i look at this moment, i realize that it eliminates, it helps us remember that american democracy has always been tainted by american discrimination and racism. Are things that we have seen many times in the past. As a historian, i am a little tired of mourning and seeing broken bodies. It on the other hand, i am seeing things that give me hope. I am seeing a diverse array of people protesting and demanding america change. Demanding that america live up to its stated ideals. I see people around the country thatears ago thought racism was not important. It now, they are saying this is important. Like bank oftions america saying how do we help . How do we contribute to using this moment to be a Tipping Point . Call tothis moment is a understand our history. Is a longand this arc. To understand that this could be a Tipping Point. This could be a moment where we come together, we cross racial and political lines and we demand fairness and freedom. For me, this is a moment for we look back and learn through learn through the long history of protests, but we also learned that america has always been a work in this editor to been great leaps forward. Pandemic, there will also be a great great leap forward and talk about the health care and economic. Does economic mobility mean to a mayor and how does a Company Think about that . Economic mobility is all about hopes and dreams and aspirations. It can i grow up . Middleclass . Will people in the system be on my side as i tried to lift myself or am i stuck . The promise of america economically in the 20th century or the generation of people in the 20th century, mostly whites and immigrants, what made america different was that you were not destined to remain in the same cast for the same class as her parents. There was a real and meaningful opportunity to move up. , that kind of mobility has stalled. It has particularly installed africanamericans, even the 60smericans from and 80s when there was some ability. We cannot fix this if we think it is a little problem. If we think it is something that one or two pieces of legislation or initiatives can correct. Sustainedrequires a effort across the board and why should we do it . Americathe promise of is that everyone should be a stakeholder and a shareholder and a participant in the American Dream. Mobility, he gave a great definition. Latinoyou define it as a leader in our country . What otherabout civil rights leaders have said. The opposite of poverty is not wealth, it is justice. Economic mobility, we need economic justice. That addressing systemic inequities, that is integrallytied tied to opportunities. You cannot separate them entirely. You have to work on both fronts and find a way to create impact in these areas where they connect. It is a leadership that we have to take because we represent america in this country and around the world, we have more customers and clients, more communities. It is an idea that we have to give them a two. It is a moment in time where it is incumbent upon us to make things happen. I am here in new york. She is also in new york, but we are socially distanced. I am here with valerie jarrett. Adviser tonior president barack obama. Thank you so much for being with us. Ms. Jarrett my pleasure. Dion the pleasure is really all my. I want to start here, because you were part of the dissent that happened a couple of years happened, it it felt like things were going to be the same and they turned out very different. Roseanne barr sent out a tweet that was racist comparing someone to a monkey. Ande was a twitter outrage it seemed like it was going to play out and what usually does with a famous person saying thats not what i meant and things brushing it under the rug. The difference this time was a black woman who was her boss stepped in and said you think thats funny, i have a joke you are fired. Changell incremental changed the paradigm of what you can say in public and what ercussions from rhesus racist comments. You could talk about that and the paradigm shift and what you are seeing now. Ms. Jarrett what are seeing across the country is americans who are saying this is inconsistent with who we want the country to be. I would say remember the civil andts Moment Movement there were huge seismic changes during that time because of the demonstrations. Sot we are seeing today is much bigger and more robust in terms of all 50 states. People who are demonstrating of all races, all ages, all backgrounds saying we have to do something about the state of Race Relations in our country. We have to heal wounds that have been going on for too long and every single race make a difference. What i encourage is for people to feel free to speak up. It is not good enough to say i am not a racist. You have to say it one of my going to change our culture . There is so much that we all can do and we have a right to expect better of the state, local, and federal governments. Dion you talk about people of all different races. When we talk about protests, its not just like people. It is white people, asians, people of all races. One thing that we have had happened recently, as court overturned a President Trumps. Rder on daca it talk to me about how that relates to this movement. I dont think a lot of people equate the two, but you told me earlier that you see a tie between the two. Ms. Jarrett its all about civil rights. The fact that the civil rights said what the Supreme Court said what President Trump did wasnt legal. They also said that employers theot discriminate against lgbtq employees. That is what we should expect from our government. The government cannot change the hearts and minds of the people. What they can do is set a rule to say it is have this behavior there will be consequences. Need to see a lot more of that on all levels of government. Not only are people demonstrating, but states around the country are changing their laws. They are banning chokeholds. They are looking at noknock warrant and changing those laws. Are trying to look for solutions. We should build on that momentum and i encourage administrators and people who are out there protesting, to remind them of the importance of voting. We need to remind them that if they dont do what we want them to do, we can vote them out of office. I was hoping to talk to you about the specifics there. You have been an advisor at the highest level. You have been in the room when strategies are made. What is something that people should be pushing their elected officials on . Vote if dont get my you dont act on this . Changee one particular or a law that folks can look to and say i need to get behind this and i will throw my weight behind it . A. Jarrett this isnt onesizefitsall. It isnt a magic solution. I will give you one thing for example. A couple of weeks ago, president obama called on the mayors to reexamine their use of force the community to see if they have it right. There are examples in the 21st police of specific steps that we can take to build the trust between the police and communities of color. One of them is deescalation. We can train officers to deescalate. We can look at implicit biases. Thelook at equipment, Police Forces use military grade equipment. We encourage them to get out of your car and get to know the people. Obama brought forth 25 investigations looking at lawenforcement around the country to determine if they had discriminatory practices that were systemic. Need a robust Civil Rights Division that is helping local Law Enforcement with the training they need to improve. We need Early Intervention before it gets to be a pattern of practice. In deciding where you want to vote, you should say of the people who are in office, are they worrying about the civil rights of all americans not just some americans . At this point in our nations history, projecting everybodys civil rights is front and center. I am heartened to see this up in court to do its job. We the people have to do our job also. If there are issues you care about whether it is im a change or gun violence, do your homework and see whether or not the elected official who represents you when theyre running for office are consistent with your priorities and your values. It may not be 100 , but is it better than the other person . When you were in office, you talked about all of those things that president obama from then until now, we still see this pleasant. What was it that has to change that didnt change as a result of those actions . Ms. Jarrett we were making progress when president obama was in office. There were those speaking out about how to improve the Police Departments. We were making great strides. All of that effort ended when President Trump was elected and you have not heard him say anything over the last 3. 5 years to recognize that he appreciates the fact that there is a problem between police and committees of color. That doesnt mean that every policeman has an issue, but there is a systemic problem that we have to address bid we would those citiesiated from these investigations. It is frustrating to see the work that was underway that was abandoned that led to the death of americans. Sure when you were being raised, your parents gave you the same talk that all black families give their sons. Say to the people who are not black, imagine what that is like. Yourself in the shoes of the black families all around the country to have to tell their son you cant behave like your white classmates or your white colleagues. You have a different standard. Imagine what its like to go past statues or look at the Confederate Flag and know that it is a reminder of slavery. Dion we only have a few seconds left. , i been a debate going on suspect that you will be supporting joe biden. There has been a debate about whether he needs to take a black woman as his running mate. As a black woman who has been an advisor at the top level, where do you stand on that . Is that something he needs to do . Ms. Jarrett he has the good fortune of an investment of riches of Vice President ial candidates from whom he can select. There are many qualified africanamerican women were also names that we have been hearing about. Joe bidenthan anybody what he needs in a partner. We are going to face a recovery of the worst economic crisis in our lifetime. We have a Health Crisis and health disparity. We had to tackle this pandemic and prepare for the next wave. We have to restore the economy and we have to heal our countries racial tensions. He should look for someone to be a partner in that effort. Completely and that effort. Add, i also hasten to care a great deal who he uses secretary, attorney general, secretary of state, treasury secretary. People who are going to be holding positions that have enormous weight and how we recover and whether we recover in a way that is beneficial to all americans or just the same once it has always benefited. We should look at where people look pastssues and the president ial running mate into all of the senior positions that he picks. Its an example of what he stands for. Thank you so much for being with us. Our final guest is deray mckesson. Dion we have the officers involved in the recent shootings being charged. It feels like we are starting to see real change. Tell me about your thoughts on this. Rememberson always that the protest began in 2014. The people of ferguson and st. Louis and that changed the nations awakening and conscience about policing and that led to a host of people waking up and seeing that this wasnt just the problem in ferguson or a few cities. The police have killed more people not less since then. In march and april 20, that is killed more people in the same way as they did in to a 19 good ferguson was the first time where people were more afraid of being killed by a Police Officer then by other members of the community. How do wequestion of not just get symbolic wins . When e. G. Take down the monuments. We need to take down the monuments. The only way to change the outcomes of peoples lives is when the structure changes. The whole movement has been pushing for, how do we change the rules and reduce the power of the police immediately . We think about the bill of rights, then we think about moving the money away from policing. When you talk about that, those are all very clear things. Does victory mean to you . Make black people safe, reducing violence . That is the. To reform not asking the system, they are looking to transform the way we think about safety. In the immediate, when he to make sure that any officer has significantly less power. It has to be part of the equation. There is no reason why tomorrow any officer can chokehold somebody or shoot into a vehicle. We should change that. In the next two weeks as we go into the budget process, we should move as much money as possible out of Police Departments and put it into community solutions. Just money, it is about removing the responsibility of Police Departments. Who should respond to a mental Health Crisis . Probably a Mental Health expert. Who should respond to the homeless . Probably a social worker. The third thing is pretty change the rules around discipline. Union, theany Police Contract should not be able to negotiate discipline. Dion right now, were sitting in a place where we will have to start looking at hard truths and were not going to money here, we are going to put it there. Do you want Police Departments completely defunded . If not, how do you allocate that money . There are people in our communities who want the police there, they feel like they need is there for safety. How would you advise that these governments look at their diminishing resources . I think what people want is to be safe. People want to know that if there is violence or harm that there will be a response to it. The question is not police or the police. The question is what the safety look like . The piece are not the best answer to that. The police are not the best answer to that. When you think about someone dealing with Suicidal Ideation and you want them to feel safe and get support, the police should not answer the question. Who response . Not someone with a gun. Funding. Se things have how do you say we are taking 10 million here, 10 million there . How do you decide how much funding should go toward these things other than policing . Mr. Mckesson that is a great question. We can use the Government Data to do that. 911 calls are actually for Mental Health. Money, take 20 of the 20 of the resource and move it. Every way you cut the data, it doesnt even support the weather we fund Police Departments now. When you look at the national of the arrestcent for Violent Crime did if you make the argument that we need that is to deal with the most Violent Crime, that is only 5 . We could use, what if we took 95 of the budget and moved it somewhere else . The data would support Something Like that. That is fbi numbers. Thats not homegrown numbers from a think tank. Over 20has reported for years that 5 of the arrest are for Violent Crime. Thats how you do it. The data doesnt support funding Police Departments in the way that we do. Dion you talk about people questioning data. Issues, people have said there are issues regarding the data. This has been so important. Onples lives are dependent success and changing things. I wonder, what is happening within the movement that we have that someoneeeing, is pushing back on saying your agenda isnt radical enough . You have others saying it goes too far. Hadi folks in this movement for black lives which is trying to save black peoples lives, how do you coalesce and come together . That there is not a lot of different voices calling for different things. Even the people who criticize me say they love black people. I know they are trying to get to a place where we can exist without the police. We are try to get to a place where people are alive, healthy, happy, and joyful and we all agree on that. Sometimes, we are not on the same road to get there. We dont have the same strategy, but we all want to be in the same place. I say that of people who have been critical of my approach. Dion how do we get together . Do we get together in a room and hash it out . Mr. Mckesson the tension will be the work. There is no one strategy, no one plan. There has never been one way to get to abolition even will make a abolition rights the first time. I think it might be an unfair expectation that we all need to align on one strategy. What is important is that we all align to one direction and one goal. Feedback we all get it is helpful that helps people think about refining the message. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your time. Mr. Mckesson its good to be here. Dion we also want to say thank you to bank of america for partnering with axios for this event. Thank you all for joining us for joining us on whatever your platform of choice is. We hope to have another great conversation. If you like this conversation and want to find more content, please sign up for our newsletters. Hope you will sign up for the axios markets newsletters. We also have two coming out. Podcast coming out. Thank you for being with cspans washington journal, every day. 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