Bunch became the first africanamerican two hold this prestigious post and as impressive as that is my favorite fact today the founding director of the National Museum of africanAmerican History and culture, that jewel on the National Mall created in 2005 and opened in 2016. He wrote about it, about the whole experience in his book a fools ear ran, creating the National Museum of africanAmerican History in the age of bush, obama and trump today is juneteenth and on union troops arrived in tax to announce the slaves were free. Meaning of the day and significance in American History is front of mind this year and theres no one better to discuss this than secretary bunch. Secretary bunch, welcome. My pressure to see you as always. Host we have a couple of things in come. You and my mom share a birthday and also were both both born in newark so it is great to see you again of a long while. Lets talk about juneteenth. Everybody is talking about juneteenth this year. The president told the wall street journal that he, quote, made juneteenth very famous. Nobody had ever heard of it. Meanwhile on capitol hill, senators Kamala Harris toronto of could and john cornyn, republican of texas, are introducing a bill to make juneteenth a National Holiday. So, secretary bunch, why should juneteenth be a National Holiday . Guest in many ways juneteenth is both a local story and a national story. It really is in some ways the second Independence Day in this country. For many people, juneteenth raises the fundamental question of the power and impact of freedom, and the fragility of freedom. So for me its an opportunity to both look back but to look ahead, to make sure that notion of freedom and the fragility of it is always protected and celebrated. Host what lessons from juneteenth could be applied today . I you the fragility of freedom fragility of democracy, but what are the direct lessons that we could take hold of today . Guest first of all its important to realize that what this day should remind us is that freedom wasnt given. In essence africanamericans struggled in terms of selfliberation, running away, joining the army, that in essence they fought for their freedom. Wasnt just given to them but should remindings that the legacy is we have to continually struggle to ensure that freedom is made accessible to us all and i think that what i see more than anything else is a historian is that africanamericans are built on juneteenth and use the time and time again to struggle whether it was struggle beginning segregation, against antilynching laws or during the civil right movement. What thats day should remind us is we should celebrate the moment and recognize that its e culp bent to celebrate the moment. Host one of the many reason why were talking about juneteenth, one is because the president s going is going to tulsa, he was supposed to speak there today, but i want to talk but that and tulsa and the significance of tulsa, and also talking about juneteenth because of the protests in he streets, nationwide, since the killing of george floyd in minneapolis on memorial day. You have called protests the highest form of patriotism. So as an historian, how do you view the nationwide protests . Are we at a turning point in American History or Something Else . Guest i think that clearly this is a moment that is part of the long historic arc. We can talk but the broken black bodies that go back from enslavement to today. What i think you see, however, is an understanding that if you want to hold this country accountable, if you want to help this country fulfill its dreams, help the country live up to its stated ideals then you have to protest. Im always struck by the motion of Frederick Douglass who said you cant appreciate freedom without agitation, without recognizing the struggle for it. Im seeing a struggle in the streets to make a country better, to help a country finally get to that Tipping Point to say, how is this a great leap forward . How does this change the basic assumptions we have about what this nation is . And so theres a part of me that is hopeful. And a part of me that is not. Host okay. So, i guess the hopeful part. Expand on the part that makes you not hopeful. Guest on the one hand, let me frame it this way. Im seeing changes that i never would have expected. Im seeing Police Chiefs and Police Officers finally talking about their own culpability and what does this mean in the criminal justice system. Also seeing thing is never thought likes aunt jemima going away and we have seen this moment before. I worry a lot this is not going become 1969, that in essence if you remember, after the long hot summers and the changes of the civil rights movement, Richard Nixon is elect on a law and order platform and that law and order peninsula. Turns peoples attention away from civil rights, from finding fairness and freedom and realist a contributing factor tomas incarceration we see today. I worry that this is a moment that could be taken away if we dont continue to push and see leadership at all levels demanding to say this is the Tipping Point, this is the time. Host you mentioned the the things happening in corporate america, aunt jemima being retired other, things corporations are doing, i saw a report that about half of the fortune 100 have pledged Something Like [inaudible] to africanamerican causes or cause related to social justice. Do you view those as real is the word that comes to mind or fleeting . Is this just a feelgood thing from your perspective theyre doing and then as time guess on that commitment ill go by the wayside. Guest i think part of the key difference of, say, today from other moments when the Corporate Community contributed, is that you now have a much more diverse work force in these corporations. You have people saying, what are we doing as a corporation to help make a country better . And what are we doing to improve our own sense of equity and fairness. Or seeing something i think is real. I think its too soon to tell will this last for years and years, but im optimistic im seeing people put money to this, seeing people then make corporations begin to make changes and i think this is a moment of possibility, but again, this is a moment where we have seen in the past where after a period of time, the boils heat comes down, and people turn their typings other ways. Attention to other ways if do believe the kind of tie verse people im saying contribute to the struggle, the factor seeing a Diverse Group of poem in the streets, people from europe, saying this is an issue for them as well as the United States, gives me hope that we can keep the heat up. Host now, we have a consulate that historical events here. Juneteenth, which is today and i was mentioning before, tulsa. The president going to tulsa. Talk about the significance of tulsa in the american story but particularly in the africanamerican story. Guest in many ways tulsa present he possibility of africanamericans believed coming out of slavery, coming into the 21st center. The recent would you tell center of actual could was called the black wall street. A place with black businesses, a strong sense of community, a sense of economic prosperity. Really an example of the best of what can happen to africanamericans. But it ran afoul as always of a rumor that an africanamerican abused a white woman, the police came in, it led to a kind of lawlessness attack, where destroyed so much of greenwood, hundreds were killed, hundreds were chased away. Whole buildings were destroyed. What it really told me is the grownwood massacre is really the sort ofin and yang of americas. The best thein and yang of federal and the nation of what black americans should be able to do, and i think the pain of that is really something that people still feel and especially because what is sim bombizes is the insecurity of freedom. The uncertainty of Free Development here youre doing everything your supposed to do and its taken away from you. Host and the tulsa massacre is called the singling worst incident of racial violence in American History. Talk about the significance of President Trump wanting to good to tulsa well, going to tulsa but wanting to go to tulsa and give a speech on juneteenth in tulsa. Guest well, i think it is my belief as always that everybody should be educated, and that if this helped the president learn a little bit more but africanAmerican History so be it, but i also think it tells you that theres such a divide in this country in terms of knowledge. In terms of understanding the africanamerican experience and understanding the africanAmerican History. This is a sacred time, tulsa is a sacred city and its important for it to be celebrated as a place that was rebuilt, that africanamericans didnt let the destruction stop them but also should be a cautionary tale about the limits of freedom. Host everyone should be open to being educated, should be educated. But as you wrote in your book, when thenpresident elect donald trump went to visit the museum of africanAmerican History and culture and you there as the director, you wrote the president apologiesed in front of the exhibit that discussioned the roll of the down in the slave trade. Thought maybe he was paying attention to the work of the museum. He quickly approved me wrong as he turn from the display and said, they love me in the netherlands. All i could say was, lets continue walking. Theres little i remember about the rest of the hour we spent together. I was so disappointed in his response to one of the greatest crimes against humanity in history. Here is a chance to broaden the view and the understanding of the incoming president , and i had been less successful than i expected. That visit was january 2017. Here we are, june 2020. Do you think the president has been open to being educated about history but also the hard part of our history. I cant answer that. Dont know what he has been educated by. What i do think is that this is a moment that is illuminating this history, thats allowing everybody, forcing everybody to confront it and i think thats the powerful moment that to have a president try to talk about tulsa even though he is learning more but it i think its important to realize that this is a moment for people to better understand our history and that excites me. Host secretary bunch, how important is it that we have a to the National Discussion and also our historical arc that we have a president of the United States who time and time again shows that not only is he not cognizant of our history but is willing to pour salt in the wound of our history . Were used to have can president s who are uniters and moments of tragedy and crisis bring us together, and yet there are plenty of example of the current president doing the exact opposite. Guest all i can say to you is that, look, this is a moment from my Vantage Point where the country is open to learning about its history to confronting it tortured racial past and anything that allows us to better understand who we once were, and help is con texas to allize this moment and maybe use history, especially the africanamerican experience torn point us towards a Better Future is something im very supportive of iwant to dive in a little. Host i want to dive in deeper on something you mentioned before in term hodes hopefulness out of the nationwide protest and thats having Police Chiefs around the country saying that they need to do better and acknowledging the pain and the frustration out there in the country. This is something the relationship between the Africanamerican Community and Law Enforcement has broadly speaking not been good and stretches all the way back probably to, we came to these shores in 1619. Is it possible to change four centuries of a relationship in the span of one moment in time where people are in the streets demanding change . Guest you know, all i can do is say that one over the great strengths of the Africanamerican Community is they were able to dream an america that was yet to be and the were people who have never thought that slavery would end. People who believed that legal segregation would always be there and i have to believe that change is possible. I think that by looking at the way Police Chiefs are talking, more importantly, by looking at the way communities are keeping the pressure on i think theres hope for change. So i have to believe that thats possible based on history. But i think the jury is still out. Host secretary bunch, 2009 good to couple of questions we get from viewers. This comes from katy from mt. and her question is do you have any suggestions for making this relevant to middle class white students in montana because bailiff they need to understand such important events and shes referring to juneteenth no i think there institutions, educational institution, museums put their con at any time online that allow people to understand better the history if think that she has put her finger on aint important point. Thises not a story and not a moment moore macpeople is this a story and moment for all americans, and that the more americans understand the past, understand their commitment, understand how we all are shaped by race, that gives us the kind of foundation to effect change. Host that brings to mind something that we have heard over the years, which is forgot while americans my family didnt own slaves. Why should i care about that . Thats in the past. Why is that relevant now . Whats your answer to that line of thinking. Guest James Baldwin said were trapped by traditions of history we dont even know. My notion is that everybody is shaped by the experience of slavery. Think about it. All aspects of american life. Politics, economic life, cultural life, was always shaped by slavery. In fact, economically at the beginning of the civil war, more money was invested in slavery than in business and railroads combined and in essence the traditions of enslave. , the treatment of black people in terms of the police and in terms of mass incarceration, always been shaped by that history if think everybody regardless of race is shaped in profound way biz the africanamerican experience. In many ways what the africanamericaner and happens has pointed to is almost every time the country has made great leeps forward in terms of fairness and democracy and citizenship, from fruiteds were imbedded in moment. So in some ways we are all shaped by words from Frederick Douglass or ella baker, were all shaped by the africanamerican experience every day of our lives. Host the next question from someone whose name you will recognize exhibits comes from Khalil Mohammad from new jersey. Professor at the carver kennedy school, and his question is does the smithsonian have a new education strategy to teach white americans bolt the history of race and racism that reaches beyond the National Museum of American History and culture of which youre the founding director. Hes is right. We have to be broader than people coming to washington. One thing we have done at the smithsonian thanks to a support of bank of america, were able to initiate a Major Initiative called race community, our shared future, which is really about sharing Digital Access to our collections, to the history, creating virtual town halled that allow people of different communities, different races to comp together to graupel with this. Allows us to bring the best sharp of people like dr. Muhammad who can help us talk about this on a National Level and focus locally. So im committed to making sure that the smithsonian is a value at this very difficult time, and part of that value is drawing the broad Educational Resources that we have, that we can help america better understand this moment. Host and this question from james from here in washington, dc and relevant to what is happening today and that is how will the smithsonian include the floyd murder and aftermath the museum programs. Its important to remember that the job of a museum is not just to look back. Its to collect today for tomorrow. Soso many times in my career there were story is wanted to tell and museums didnt collect the material. So, im committed to making sure that the smithsonian collects the moment in a myriad of ways. Part is making shower were part of the collecting of all those signs and drawings that were on the fence in front of the white house. Also that were doing all interviews with people on the streets. Were asking them to share their photographs, share the videos theyre taking to make sure that we understand how we do this, and were doing things in a way my open daughter is an e. R. Doc in chicago and will share with thus he protect testify equipment the docs wore, our goal is to make sure we can ensure to tell the story now and that 50 years from now other scholars bill we able to interpret this and make is accessible to the public. Host we have eight minutes and im going to try to cram in as much as i can before we have to golf lets come back to the demonstrations and the protests that have been happening around the done through. A lot of people have been making mention of the fact that its not just black people who are out the protesting. [loss of audio] why do you think theyre greater diversity of those taking part in protests and also talking about issues of race today . Guest i think part of it is social media. People are able to sort of not just see the horrible murder of george floyd but have the kind of conversations about it, bring people together to demonstrate demonstrate and theres a prow phoned sense this is so wrong and people who care about america, especially younger americans feel this is their moment to make a difference. And so i am very i think im very hopeful because of that diversity, and also very hopeful because i see what is happening in europe and as you know, part of what happens in the United States is we want to be seen as the champion for the world and as europe begins to cit size us that will have an impact. This is a wonderful example of how people who are younger recognize this is an opportunity to confront a wrong and im moved by the fact this has again on day after day after day. I remember protesting the war in vietnam or civil rights demonstrations that didnt go on day after day after day. That it gives me hope theres a commitment to keep at the struggle, keep fighting until we make the changes we want. Host now, secretary bunch, this has been a tough time, not only for the country but for africanamericans in particular, and im including myself. Its been hard, very difficult. This is your line of work, cataloguing and chronicling our history, africanAmerican History, but also American History. And a lot of it is dark. How do you how have you been able to keep your head up . What advice would you give those of us its part of our job to chronicle the history but some days the burden alone just becomes too heavy. Guest there are days when youre in the midst of preserving this history that you pick up a book and throw it against the wall. There are days where you recognize that this moment is not just professional, its personal. You remember your own interactions with police, you remember the moments when race tapped you on the shoulder and i think part of it is actually being candid with yourself but how youre feeling but how this has shaped you, and for me where i take the strength is the resiliency of black folks, the sense that people survive the institution of slavery, that people were able to sort of keep families, keep hope alive, and so for me its reaching back and saying that this is a community that shouldnt have believed in america but believed in america that at any time believe in them, and so didnt believe in them. That kind of sense of stepping forward, drawing back, really helps me. The other thing for me is i i think but my grandfather and started life at a share cropper and refused to let that define him and how his actions changed the trajectory of a family. So i find the hope there. Host and what do you say to white americans who are out there in the streets and might not even be in the streets but who are trying to understand and figure out how do i how do i become an ally, and effective ally, not just an armchair ally but someone who can actually be a part of change . What would you say to them . Guest i think first of all, educate yourself to the struggle. Understand this history. Understand this moment. Also recognize what are the things you can do in your local community. This involvement, whether its providing support, whether its getting involved in local demonstrations what i hope is people recognize this is a moment for all who care about america, care about the best of america, moment for them to step forward, and foo find whatever way possible to be part of the struggle and its not a momentary struggle. This the commitment for the rest of your days to help make a country better. Host and finally, secretary bunch, President Trump is going to be in tulsa, speaking tomorrow, apparently speaking on race. Pull him out of it. In this speech tomorrow, what would you hope a president of the United States would say to the nation on the subject of race coming from the city of tulsa . Guest i think what you want to hear from any leader is that, first of all, essentially understanding who we and are make a major commit tot addressing it. You want team to recognize this is a story that shapes everybody, not just black people, and what you want is you always want hope. You always want somebody to help bring us together. And so ultimately what [loss of audio] i always want to hear is somebody who recognizes the challenge, that difficulty of grappling with race and recognizes that is a major part of what he or she is a leader needs to do as we move forward. Host and in the two minutes we have left. How are you going to celebrate juneteenth . Guest i am going to call my daughters and were going to talk about family because one of the thing i think is a legacy of juneteenth has been the importance of family. As soon as people heard that slavery was over many went to find their families. So for the miss is a day to reflect on slavery to recognize that slavery is something that is central to who we and are we note be embar raced by enslaved an sorer toes and a day to revel in family. Host secretary, it greta talk to you. Thank you very much for coming here. Thank you, my pleasure to be with you. That will do it for us on Washington Post live. Join us next week for a full lineup of guests and issues including on tuesday, un23rd, my kole league, will interview the founder and creative director or and one of the only black women the helm of a major fashion magazine for a conversation but the fashion worlds own problems of racial inequality and discrimination and then on thursday, june june 25th, house speak he nancy pelosi talks to my colleague robert accost to. This has