Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing On Police Use Of Force Community Policing 20240712

Minutes to add to it. Senator feinstein, senator booker, senator harris, if you would like to make Opening Statements. Is that ok . We have some people who will do some introducing to the panel. I have a short video that is tough to watch and i talked to senator booker about it the first couple minutes, but it ends up on a very positive note and we will see if we can go from really hard to watch to something that is a little bit more acceptable to the country. If you could roll the video. Is it working . Can we consider it an act of god and not air it . Could be. Well . What do we expect to see . You are expecting to see a video, but you are not. So i will just talk. E his very painful death, its about the gentleman who was jogging in georgia and got shot. And it was about the recent atlanta case. It was about two episodes of a cop pulling a woman out of a burning car and a Police Officer administering cpr to a very young, monthold infant. And it winds up with the cops and protesters taking a knee together and trying to work through their problems. If we could wind up there as a country, that would be a good thing. Senator scott is going to introduce the republican approach to reforming the police. I dont know. I will let the Committee Members speak for themselves, but i dont see a whole lot of energy here to defund the police. I think there is a lot of effort to reform the police. Senator scott will introduce that package tomorrow. That President Trump introduced through executive order, some ideas, and i complement him for doing that. Rather than laundry listing what is in all of these packages, the house passed a fairly broad policing reform bill. I would like the committee to sit down and reconcile these packages and come up with someth but particularly recently, that every black man in america apparently feels threatened when they are stopped and the cops. That it is not 99 , it is 100 . I have talked to a lot of africanamerican pastors at home. And in their churches, when a young man is able to drive or old enough to be considered a young man, they have to talk about what to do if you are stopped by the police. You keep your hands on the wheel and you dont reach for the dash, you say yes, sir, or no, sir. Senator booker mentioned he has been stopped five or six times here on capitol hill. I have never been stopped. And when i see a cop behind me the first thing i think about is what can i do wrong and can i talk myself out of this ticket . There is literally no fear. And i would not like to live in a country where i am afraid to be stopped. So hopefully, we can all understand that problem and fix it. But it is a problem. Virtually every black man in america feels like if they get stopped by the cost, it is a tremendous experience. We want Police Officers to protect themselves and protect us, but mr. Floyd died for a 20 bill. You have seen the video, he was in handcuffs and was not threatening anybody. How do you go from that to dead is just amazing. The atlanta thing is a bit more difficult. A pretty good in direction that went bad quickly. Shooting somebody should be the last resort. If you are dead, you are dead. If the guy gets away, you could catch him again, but the idea of using lethal force has to be revisited. Being a cop is no easy thing. You make a lot of snap decisions where your life is threatened, that of the community, but we have to realize that taking another human beings life while in Police Custody is something that we should be better at in 2020 than we are. Defund the police, not much for that. Reforming the police a lot. Better Community Police practicing, what areas of the country have gotten it more right than others. I want to ask our first panel when we get a chance here if the person approaching you is an africanamerican, officer, if it is different than a white officer. If the person approaching you is a woman, if that is a different experience if it is a man. It seems to me that one of the things we should be trying to do is have more africanamericans people of color, and women in policing to make the police force look more like the community they are policing. Chokeholds. Apparently, the president came out with a call to abolish chokeholds. The house did that. Seems to me, there has come a time for us to move on from chokeholds. Better hiring and better firing. We will have more input from Police Officers. A complaint can be lodged against any of us. We have a system here where we dispose of those complaints privately. I have had like seven or eight complaints filed against me at the South Carolina Bar Association for Different Things i said during the Kavanaugh Hearing and others. I think they are a bunch of bs. Bottom line, that is a private endeavor. The question about filing complaints against Police Officers, it would be so easy to ruin somebodys life as a cop and try to intimidate the police force. There has got to be away to understand that when the complaints are legitimate, to take action. We have to be honest with ourselves and ask the question is it too hard fire a cop . We have to be honest with ourselves and ask the question is it too hard fire a cup . Cop . And when you have documented instances of acting outside of the law with too much force without the right attitude to be a cup, how does that stay in your file to make sure the town next door knows about it . Qualified immunity. Has it become time to revisit that . Most cops dont want to go into the business thinking they could lose their house if they make a mistake, but there is something we can do with the concept of qualified immunity that would put more accountability into the agencies that run Police Departments. One thing i can tell you, if you are subject to being sued, you act differently than if you were not. We dont want to deter people from going into Law Enforcement but we also want a sense of accountability. And if extending the qualified immunity fosters a sense of it not being your problem. Lets take a look at it. More accountability, more information, a National Registry about how many actually die in Police Custody. A National Registry about the instances abusing lethal force while in custody. The time has come to create a system to combat the broken system. His leasing is policing in america systematically a racist enterprise . I would like to think not because i do believe more cops more good than bad, but when every black man in america leaves that getting stopped by the cops is a traumatic experience, something happened somehow, somewhere, and i would like a systematic approach to problems that continue to happen over and over again. So there are a lot of ideas coming from different corners of the political spectrum. The question for the committee is it possible to find Common Ground . The answer is obviously yes, if we want to. As chairman. I would like to. Senator feinstein. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding disappointment. On may 25 to may minneapolis Police Officer knelt on the neck of george floyd for almost nine minutes. Mr. Floyd repeatedly said i cannot breathe. Bystanders back to the officer to stop but he continued to choke mr. Floyd until his body went limp, his life extinguished. Now, what was the unforgivable crime that led an officer to kill this unarmed, 46yearold man . He was suspected of using a counterfeit 20 bill to buy groceries during a Global Pandemic. Personally, this is beyond anything i can imagine and i hope it is beyond anything you can imagine. George floyd is not the first unarmed blac man or woman to be killed by police. The names are etched into this countrys consciousness. Rhianna taylor, and emergency medical worker shot eight times i Louisville Police while asleep in her home. Eric garner, choked to death by an nypd officer for selling cigarettes. Freddie gray, killed after being taken into custody by Baltimore Police for possessing a knife. Walter scott, shot in the back by North Charleston police after being stopped for a bad break late. Stephan clark, killed by Sacramento Police in his grandmothers backyard for breaking windows. And Michael Brown shot six times by Ferguson Police while his hands were raised in the air. And just last weekend, Atlanta Police were called to respond to reports of a young man asleep in his car and blocking a Fast Food Restaurant drivethrough. Even though the young man moved his car to a nearby space when asked by the police, the encounter entered ended when brooks was shot in the back twice as he ran away. I dont know how anyone can read these stories or see the videos and not conclude that something is radically wrong in this country and we have got to move to stop this epidemic of deadly force against black americans. I remember well the call to action in 2014 after Michael Brown was shot in ferguson missouri. President obama convened a task force on 21st Century Policing. That task force provided a roadmap to reform Law Enforcement. Unfortunately the Task Force Recommendations have not been followed, and instead, we have been largely abandoned under President Trumps watch. For example on august, 2017, the Trump Administration lifted president obamas ban on the transfer of certain military equipment to Police Departments. That ban was put in place by president obama, consistent with the Task Force Findings that the use of military style injury and right here escalated tensions between police and the communities they served. The Trump Administration has similarly abandoned the use of pattern or practice investigations to identify or remedy systemic problems within Police Departments. Congress gave the department of Justice Authority to conduct patterns or practice investigation following the horrific Police Beating of rodney king and my home state of california. Since then, most administrations have use that tool effectively. The obama administration, for example, opened 25 investigations into possible illegal patterns and practices within Law Enforcement agencies. Several of these resulted in Consent Decrees that set out specific reforms zide shift Police Culture. By contrast, according to public reporting, the Trump Administration has opened just one narrow pattern and practice investigation that focuses on a single unit of the Springfield Police department in massachusetts. Remarkably, in the wake of George Floyds death, attorney general barr has refused to open a pattern and practice investigation into the Minneapolis Police department. How can that be . Anyone who has seen the video of George Floyds last nine minutes of life has seen that none of the officers at the seed objected or intervened seen scene objected or intervened as the man pleaded for his life. Enough is enough. Last week, senator booker and harris introduced the justice in police act. That is the bill that would permit many of the recommendations of the task force on 21st Century Policing and it would require real accountability for police use of force. I hopeill take that bill seriously and we can hold hearings, process them, and perhaps make some progress. This is not a simple bill. It is quite controversial. It bans the use of choke holds and chokeholds by Law Enforcement officers. It prohibits the use of racial profiling. Its ending Police Targeting criminalization on the race on the basis of race or National Origin it is the determination history of officers so that potential employers would be aware of an officers past misconduct. It gives subpoena authority over the Justice Department to conduct these pattern investigations which would ensure investigators could obtain all the information they need to conduct thorough investigations of secure misconduct and eliminates qualified immunity so that Police Officers are held accountable for their conduct. These are difficult issues, but they must be addressed and i really want to congratulate both of my colleagues for putting this bill together. Its long overdue, mr. Chairman, and i look forward to this bill over the coming weeks. So thank you senator booker and harris, as well as representatives bass and nadler for your leadership on the issue. Mr. Chairman, you and i spoke in the days after George Floyds killing. I remember your say that this death was horrific. That said both of us were appalled at what we saw. You also said this reason hearing and more to follow will expose policing and discrimination. I was so delighted what i heard you say that and i am delighted you are beginning to carry that out, which is what i interpret this hearing to be. I trust this will not be the committees final word. I hope we will be able to have attorney general barr before us. He has not agreed to come before us thus far. But among other things the attorney general needs to explain why the Justice Department appears to have abandoned practice or practice pattern or practice cases and specifically, why the department has declined a broader investigation into Police Misconduct within the Police Department following George Floyds killing. Mr. Chairman, we have much to do. I dont think we can leave these happenings without taking action and i trust we will do just that. Thank you. It is my goalproposals to the extent possible and come up with solutions. Mr. Booker. Thank you mr. Chairman, for the courtesy of allowing me an Opening Statement and thank you for your thoughtful comments. I would also like to thank the Ranking Member for thoughtful comments as well. In departing for micro paired remarks, i just want to say what does it say about a nation when two senators from the same state have had wildly different experiences with Law Enforcement right here . In the last few weeks, i have had conversations with black folks who work for the senate, people on both sides of the aisle, who all have their shares of stories of traumatizing experiences, a feeling like they were one sudden move one moment from experiencing violence. The challenge is that this has been nothing new. I think if we took the time to listen to each other, you would see that we have a culture where so many parents have to teach their children to be afraid in order to be secure. I heard comments on the floor today about one of my colleagues who listens to their staffers with the kids were told by their parents to keep their seats because they will be accused of having stolen things. I know from my own experience. The challenge is this is often unfair, it is unacceptable, it is wrong. But when it explodes like we see it, people capture on videotape the kind of violence that you were traumatized by, the violence he would show. I am grateful for senator harris , who has been my partner over the last few weeks. She and i have worked together with Congressional Black Caucus leaders and ultimately chairman nadler to put together a deal called the justice in policing act. We put it together in the wake of george floyd. In the wake of not just black men, but black women sleeping in their home. The deaths that have brought to attention much of this in our course and indeed in all 50 states literally thousands of protests of people of all backgrounds. Republicans and democrats have been calling for an end, a meaningful reform aired and yet even in the days since kemal and i put together our work with other members of the Senate Continue to see things caught on videotape. As was said before rishaad brooks shot in the back. So this is very clear. We we are talking about is a nation with two different Justice Systems, two different experiences. If you stop and top with black people who work here. There are very personal stories, including senator tim scott. The unmitigated killing of unarmed black people in america by Law Enforcement not to mention the disparate treatment is something we must do something about. We have a choice right now. I am about 51 years old, and since my birth there have been so many studies, so any commissions from the Carter Commission all the way up to the 21st Century Task Force on policing and nothing has changed. Cities from ferguson to minneapolis have done a lot of reform and as the data has shown, a lot of these things have been done before but we still see the killing of unarmed africanamericans. So, we really have a choice to make and every day that we dont puts more and more of our fellow citizens in danger not just in death of the kind of treatments we would never want to face. We have a choice before us and so this idea that there is a republican bill and a democratic bill, we need to look beyond that and simply understand that the things that are in the bill actually have wild popularity amongst republicans. You hear Republican Leaders from george bushs first address to congress which said we should stop racially profiling americans. That is not something radical. Its the idea that we are equal under the law. Things like no knock warrants, we have failed this country by setting standards for practicing policing that support our common values. Democrats overwhelmingly support banning these practices. They would save lives. Breonna taylor would be alive today, erica garner could be alive today. But is not just a standard. Accountability is a way of measuring progress. We dont even collect data on how any people are shot by police. I ran a Police Department. I learned the hard way that without data, there cannot be accountability. You got to be fast to be wide receiver. If you have no way of measuring that what is standard . Activists, local leaders, we should all have transparency into policing. Without that, no accountability. And finally, you said it yourself. I took note of what you said, mr. Chairman. Unless there are real consequences, if you failed to meet standards whether lawsuit or criminal action changing standards in criminal courts is difficult if not impossible to meet the standards aired thats just common sense standards in criminal court, if they are difficult if not impossible to meet, the standards arent there. Thats just common sense. So i worry in this moment i really do, that we are going to repeat history. That this will be groundhog day. That here we are again in a nightmare not a comedy. We hear talks of socalled reform packages, more studies more nibbling around the edges as opposed to acting boldly and doing things we know will hold Police Officers accountable for their conduct, to set meaningful standards and allow us to enforce a law. It is not an over dramatization to say that the stakes are high. Will we meet this moment in history and do Something Real or will we find ourselves back here three years from now with mass protests in the streets from people of all different backgrounds mending change demanding change . The truth is, i have faith in us in the country. I believe there i do not have faith we will get there on time. I believe there is going to be a time in america when we ban human practices like chokeholds. I believe there will be a time when we do not Treat Mental Health issues with police and prison. There will be a time where a black woman is safe to sleep in her own bed or a young man reaching for his cell phone will not be shot dead. I believe there will be a time when black parents like mine do not have to fear for the safety of their child who just got her drivers license. I believe there will be a time when we understand Public Safety is not about simply the number of police on our streets, but about how the number of people who no longer live in poverty or safety to regard water do not have to deal with addiction or prison but have to get treatment. There will be a time in this country, but the mark of the moral universe is long. We have to be the arc vendors. The question is the time now. How many people have to die in our streets to get us there . How many more people have to suffer the indignities that our own colleagues have talked about in the set . I believe the time should be now to make bold change, or we will be back here again. These changes will happen, but they should not happen someday. This should be the day, the time so that we can ensure this nightmare and in america. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could i have one minute, please . Yes, you can. I want to put out how iowa is not waiting around for congress to act and an eightday session since the death of mr. Floyd. Governor reynolds signed a bill that was unanimously passed by both houses. And why i am somewhat familiar with this is my grandson is speaker of the iowa house, but it creates, brings additional account of them of the iowas Law Enforcement officers by creating stronger sections on the use of chokeholds by Law Enforcement officers, improvement Law Enforcement decertification processes to ensure those who have been fired or resigned after serious this conduct do not work, strict thing the authority of the attorney general to prosecute officers whose actions salt in the death of another, and establishing an antibias and deescalation training requirement for officers. I yield. Thank you. Senator harris. Senator harris thank you for holding this hearing and for the sincerity with which you have approached the subject, and i thank all our colleagues for what i believe be a meaningful discussion with a real commitment to do the work of this committee, which is to do the work of supporting the concept of justice in america which include equal under the law, meaning all people will be treated equally by our laws, and we will enforce our laws equally. I want to thank the entire committee. I want to thanks senator booker for the courage that you always have to speak truths and your willingness to tell the personal stories. It takes a lot of courage to do that. And you do that not because it is easy, but because you know it needs to be done, and i appreciate that. Mr. Chairman, a people from every age, gender, race, and religion have been coming together or weeks to protest four weeks to protest injustice against laxton america. We have a duty as senators to be aware of our countrys history of systemic racism and a responsibility to take serious actions toward achieving americas founding ideal of equal justice under law. When we say that america has a history of systemic racism, we mean that from slavery, jim crow laws lynchings, and policing our institutions have done violence to black americans. And it has caused black americans to be treated as less than human across time, place and institution. Lets be clear about what it would mean then to transform our transfer transform our society. When we truly achieve the ideal of getting rid of racism, will not have an unarmed batman, george floyd die by a Police Officer kneeling on his neck for almost eight minutes and 48 seconds, exactly. And we achieve that ideal it will not mean we will have a woman, bereonna taylor, shot and killed by Police Officers what she was asleep in her own bed. We will not have an unarmed bbllack man lynched while going for a run in his neighbor hundred and as George Floyds brother said last week before his powerful testimony when we eliminate systemic racism, it will be clear to everyone that the life of a black man is worth more than an allegedly counterfeit 20 bill. Mr. Chairman, if there is a movement being led by people who might appear from the outside to have little in common, who are marching together to demand an end to the black blood that is staining the sidewalks of our country. They are marching together to move us closer and closer at least justice. And that gives me hope. It truly gives me hope. When i look at who is out there and the commonality of progress unity that they are exhibiting, but we have to recognize that to deal with systemic inequity in our system is not just a policing issue. Inequities are also deeply rooted in our education system, and our housing system, in our workforces, and Health Care Delivery system, and more. And we must fully value black life, invest in black communities, and root out inequity wherever it lives. It is wrong and it is wrong, and it has motivated too much of municipal budgets and the thinking of policymakers and has distracted them from what truly use of resources to achieve safety in communities, which is to invest in that health of those communities, and healthy communities. So we must ask our mayors and local leaders to reexamine their priorities and budgets. We must ask why so much money is being spent to militarize the police while two thirds of Public School teachers in America Today are coming out of their own back pockets to help pay for School Supplies in our Public Schools. It is time for us to realize this is not just a moment, but a movement. This committee and our entire federal government have a role to play in holding the Police Accountable when they break the rules and break the law. And we must be on the right side of history as a committee. We can start to make the demands of this movement by passing the justice and policing act, and here are specific ways. We need a National Usage standard, a use of force standard. Today most officers around the country, the standard is to ask if they use Excessive Force, the standard is to ask, was that use of force reasonable . It would be a much more fair and just question to ask is was that use of force necessary . We need a national use of force standard. Second, as a former prosecutor, i know independent investigations into Police Misconduct are imperative. No matter how well intentioned a District Attorney or a states attorney, when called upon to investigate the misconduct of a Police Officer that works in the department they closely work with every day, there will at the very least be an appearance of conflict, if not actual conflict. To do justice in our country is to actually do justice and to have the confidence of the public that there is an appearance of justice. These values are equal. Third, we need truth in transparency. Cities and states have to report police use of force incidents to the federal government. And i was attorney general of california, i created an initiative we named open justice, first of its can open Data Initiative to get people access to information about arrests, bookings, and deaths in custody. The public has a right to know what has happened and what is happening in their communities. And the public can then use that data to help hold us accountable instead of requiring that they are always presenting anecdotal information fueled by personal experiences when the data is available, but we as government possess it. It is not the and double thing to do, to share that data which we as government possess with the public, so they can grade and judge us appropriately . And lastly, we need to expand pattern and practice investigations into Police Department and gives state attorneys General Authority to bring these investigations. As attorney general of capital for new, i activated several pattern and practice investigations into Police Departments, and as senator feinstein mentioned, Congress Gave the department of justice to conduct these investigations in the aftermath of ronnie kings killing rodney kings beating by Police Officers. This is designed to root out problems in police the partners and other the Trump Administration, these investigations have slowed virtually to a stop. They need to start these investigations again with an additional tool of subpoena power. And on this point, attorney general barr should be here today. He should be here to answer for his shameful record, investigating civil Rights Violations in Police Departments. During the Trump Administration, justice has confirmed only one pattern and practice investigation compared to 25 brought during the obama administration. He should be here to answer for reportedly calling for the forcible removal of peaceful demonstrators who were gathered in front of the white house to protest the murder of george floyd, and he should be here to answer for his lack of leadership at this critical moment in our nations history nations history. Today President Trump issued and executive order calling for data sharing on officers who use Excessive Force and funding to help police font to the homeless and mentally ill. Let me be clear, this is not enough. It does not meet this moment. This is not enough. There are thousands of people marching in the streets. In 50 states demanding need for change. People are to many action. They are not marching in the streets for watereddown proposals that will not hold any officers accountable, and theres nothing about what the president announced today that would hold Police Officers who break the rules and break the law accountable. The only way to meaningfully access Police Brutality is to brands of reforms, including reforms to hold bad officers accountable for misconduct. The justice in policing act is certainly not the end, but the beginning of establishing National Standards and accountability for Police Departments. And at a certain point, we have seen enough, we have had enough commissions. We have studied these issues. We have convened opinion leaders. We have talked about these in private conversations and in public conversations. Now is time to act. The people are demanding it. And they have a right to know that their government, a Representative Government of the people, will respond to their needs for us as a country to live up to our ideals. So in closing, i will just say that we know that we have these words across the street at the United States Supreme Court etched into that beautiful marble building equal justice under law, but we have to show america what it means and that it truly means equal justice for all. We have to show america that, and passing the justice in policing act would be a step toward realizing that goal, because, colleagues, please understand, please understand. Tonight and every night there are black parents in america and grandparents who will be on their knees praying that their sons and daughters will be safe. Every night in america. We have to take this on, embracing what no doubt are difficult and uncomfortable situations and uncomfortable facts and an uncomfortable history about our country. But we must take this on, understanding this is a righteous demand that we fix this system and that we act. I think you, my colleagues. Thank you, thank you both. Our first panel is dr. Philip goth, franklin thomas, professor and policing equity. He will be by video. Professor doug logan president and professor of urban ministry. The honorable carter, who i will let senator klobuchar introduce in a minute. Mr. Lee merritt, an attorney from the Merritt Law Firm from philadelphia. Ms. Guptqa, president of the Leadership Council on civil and human rights. Senator klobuchar, would you like to say anything . Senator klobuchar i would. Thank you, mr. Chairman thank you, senator feinstein, for this hearing. And thank you to my friends senator booker, senator harris, for leading this important bill. For i get to introducing the mayor, i want to know that this murder happened in this state and george floyd should be alive today, but he is not. His life evaporated before our eyes, before the eyes of the world. Our nation has been left in pain. My state has been left in pain grieving and demanding justice. This is not a time to just talk about it. If we are silent, we are complicit. If we stand there and demand dominance and waived bibles, we are no better than monsters. But if we act and we actually do something and get this bill passed well, then, we are lawmakers, and that would be the legacy of george floyd. So Melvin Carter is the mayor of the first africanamerican mayor of st. Paul, minnesota. He represents the best of our state, and like so many black leaders across the country, he has rose to this occasion. Is a fourthgeneration st. Paul resident and comes from a family of public service. His dad was on the first black officers in the st. Paul Police Department where he served for 28 years, and his mom was the first black elected as a county commissioner in the state of minnesota. So it is quite a legacy he is living up to. After graduating from st. Paul Public Schools and then florida a and m university and Humphrey School of Public Affairs he served as a City Council Member at a very young age and ultimately became vice chair of the council. During his tenure as mayor, he has given special attention to punk safety reform, working to change when and how officers use force and directing more money to strengthening communities as a way to promote Public Safety. As we look to and work with local leaders to address the systemic racism that chases the lives of too many people of color, the mayor is a valuable voice, i am proud to have him as a friend and am pleased to have him here with the committee. You will leave us all. He is not here. Is he available . Yes, thank you, good afternoon. It is my honor to appear before the committee by testimony on the police use of force and community relations. You have my written statement, but i am a Behavioral Scientist by training. I am the professor of policing equity at John Jay College of criminal justice, but i am best known and police form circles for my work as cofounder and ceo for the center for policing equity. My testimony today is in that capacity. The center for policing efforts equity conducts a database, which holds the largest data for Police Behavior and work. It estimates not just Racial Disparities but those despaired is for which Law Enforcement arsenals will and can therefore change. Before i speak about pleasing, i am compelled to say what we have seen on the streets of the United States the recent weeks has been larger than the coming of george floyd, as far as collective and righteous outrage. We are seen on the streets is a past due notice for the unpaid debts owed to black people for 400plus years. The response, if it is not proportional to that debt, we will pay it with interest again and again and again. Turning to the complex issue of reform, i want to say on what science is about my sweet theres no doubt that black and hispanic and native people have more contact with Law Enforcement than might be. There is agreement where there are fewer Public Services like drug treatment, Mental Health clinics, parks, lawenforcement has more contact with residents. We know about how race shapes contact with police from the science. This comes to us from two methods of studies, hit rate analysis and regression analysis. Yield analyses reveals the percentage of that return hundred been such as drugs or guns. If the percentage is lower for one group than another, the inference among scientists is officers are stopping too many from the group who are lower order there is a threshold of suspicion with that group. This is suggestive of bias but not conclusive. The analysis reveals lower rates for blacks than whites. The other analysis protects how much Police Activity one can expect aced on demographics. In this way it is possible to assess whether crime or poverty or other neighborhood factors are sufficient to explain Racial Disparities we observe in outcomes. This literature demonstrates neither the crime nor poverty are enough to ask lane Racial Disparities, and in some geographic areas, it is not sufficient to explain Racial Disparities rate there is evidence of racial bias who are contacted by police and targeted for police force. Clearly not all the disparities we see are from Police Policy behavior alone. I want to clarify recent attempts to claim racial bias that policing is a myth have been roundly denounced by social scientists and there is a statement signed by more than 500 social scientists denouncing the publics i will be happy to show to this body. Given this understanding of bias and policing, what are we to do . The most recent debate between institutional reform and funding the police, and while there is no Research Literature on abolishing police, there is reasonably many in black when these are not aligned with this vision. Research reveals black communities do not favor eliminating Law Enforcement. They mostly want less bias and deadly Law Enforcement is important to note given the degree to which Public Opinion is evolving, this may change and quickly. Still to agree that a path forward involves police edges to invest inlack movies, that must be led by evidence, evidence on what works and evidence about where cities can receive a higher return on their investment in community empowerment. As i mentioned, the Center Supports the framework. And we will work with members of this body to make sure that its proposals are enacted. This framework injuries more support than civil rights advocates and legislators monitored any partners in Law Enforcement have increased their support to the eight major pillars of this rumor, with many chiefs now and support of all eight pillars. While we hope that number will grow, i would like to mention two pillars we need to wrap it up, ok. Go ahead. I will say the ban on chokeholds is not just blood locks. The registry offers broad support, and i home embers of the body would take an opportunity to deliver something to the american people. Thank you very much for the time. Thank, sir, very much. Professor logan . Professor logan [no audio] get your button there. Professor logan i misted up. Is dr. Doug logan jr. I serve as the president of a seminary and a former pastor in camden, new jersey. I now serve as a pastor in richmond. I have asked to talk about the policing and the use of force. I come to you today not only as a black man but also as a christian clergyman who works closely with a mayor, my friend in camden, as i do not want to use the word define, but to retool the Police Department for a more infective policing and a more Effective Police force in camden in 2012 to 2014. I lived in the innercity most of my life. Many americans would not drive through my camden lock after dark or my patterson block in north jersey after dark. I speak as someone who is not only observe great injustice experienced it firsthand because of the color of my skin. In spite of that, i speak today not only as someone who would be filled with rage but filled with hope. I am hopeful that we can recover some Common Ground in this country, starting with a renewed understanding of justice. It must be a vision of justice and equitable treatment of all people who are worthy of dignity, respect, and fairness, having been created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and it must be a vision of justice built on a commitment of all people and their government to do onto others as you would have them do unto you. Anything less than this will not provide us with the Common Ground needed to strive for justice in more than name only, yet i am significantly hopeful. Im a preacher, so i got three points. I pray that we would listen, i pray that we would learn and then i pray after listening and learning that we would legislate. I pray that we would listen to the cries, shouts, the screams of black people, brown people, and many white people that are screaming on the streets for a new day and a new way and real justice and policies to be put in place. I am hope we can create and reconnect such a vision of justice our shared dreams for society that promises liberty and justice for all. It is clear from the cries in the streets that many of our nations citizens do not feel they have equal access to these realities. In view of americas long history of Racial Injustice that seems undoubtedly true. As a man who is grown up under the difficult circumstances of innercity america, i lived among what some called the urban poor. I have been taught that racism is but one of the many problems facing impoverished communities, and that everything is blamed on racism has failed to consider the complexities of the human soul. Yet i am hopeful. I am hopeful that we can restore the proper view of the police in our society and those who have been entrusted by and us will be held accountable to god, the government, and the people. Theres is an entrusted th eirs is an entrusted stewardship, yet without molesting and enacting injustice in the press. The police is a necessary server to uphold justice in the midst of the societal injustices and should be an agent uploading the good of all people. Toward this end, let us consider the best statistical data never it is available to fairly evaluate the rates of Police Misconduct against minorities. But also listen to the stories of the people from the minority communities, also, who almost invariably report statistically qualify will instances and bias. The facts on the block are not often recorded in any data. The cries of grandma, grandpa and my friends and my cousins that we talk about in the barbershop often do not make it to the cisco data two statistical data. After listening and learning, then we would legislate. We will listen to the cries, of pain, the problems, and legislate. If we listen to the people and learn from our cities, i believe we can have comprehensive improvements. I pray for the day for my three biracial sons and my puerto rican grandkids that as i was given the talk and told the hold wheelwright and do whatever you have to do to get home, my father do whatever he you have to do to get home. The best i would racist police, but you talk about come in 2020, during a virus and riots that the country that i love him up with wise and radical laws that made them safer. Thank you. Quick thank you very much. Are you there, mayor . Yes i am. Centers ciaran smith and members of the committee. I am honored to testify today ands port of [indiscernible] escaped racial bias in the deep south. My grandfather was a navy veteran who played his trumpet for four u. S. Veterans. He was denied the right to his own day identity as all black men [indiscernible] George Floyds murder is so personal because [indiscernible] no amount of money can change that fact. My father, melvin junior, served 28 years in private practice. Because of that, my friends and i grew up surrounded by officers from our own neighborhood who knew us by name and were invested in the future and solve problems in a way no one else could. [indiscernible] Law Enforcement will cheat them fair, are more likely to cooperate with officers. If any of us mistrust police all of us are [indiscernible] nearly 200 billion, the highest imprisonment rate on the planet by three decades of study publics americans feel less safe every year. [indiscernible] we deserve an investment to reduce the number and we deserve to know that our officers will protect and serve all of us. We have rewritten policies terminated by officers. We invented social workers to respond [indiscernible] justice for nonviolent offenders. Last year, we produced in favor of investment in new social support and a Public Health approach. [indiscernible] shielded from accountability reinstated, and hired by agents. Relationship is damaged again and again. With the justice and policing act of 2020, we could establish a nass journal Standard National standard. We could invest in programs and prevent officers from searching apartments and avoid the cambodian sunday strong message around the world that they will no longer accept. I know you will be pressured but our work to restore confidence is a lifeline for officers. When they go too far remember [indiscernible] eight minutes and 46 seconds. To prevent that from happening [indiscernible] just as we grew up wanting to know [indiscernible] our children and grandchildren will call us out for our actions now. This to mans action. Eric gardner [indiscernible] and so many others, george floyd commanded the attention of the world because of the on acceptable position. It will not stop until we address under which attached to Many Americans live. Under which too Many Americans live. Thank you. Senator graham and other members of this committee. We live in the Deadliest Police culture in the modern world. Our legal system is as ravenous as it is racist. Our Law Enforcement community racks of thousands of deaths each year. Tens of thousands are brutalized and millions more are arrested in jail, making the United States the single most incarceration in the entire history of the world. This is an american crisis. This is not hyperbole but rather a response and i want to thank you for your action. I am the legal director for the grassroots law directive and i represent families and citizens killed by police. Some of the names you know. Far too many, you have not heard. I represent the family of Ahmaud Arbery murdered by a pulley former Police Officer and his son and a neighbor, william brian. Im here to provide testimony about justice and policing and Ahmaud Arbery was not killed in officerinvolved shooting. It was policing that contributed to his death. Neighbors sought help that they considered suspicious. He encouraged them to his pursue a course of vigilantism. He was aware for months that the man only intended to do harm. It was Law Enforcement two his mother, telling her his son had been killed in the course of a robbery by homeowner. The police chief where this occurred was arrested along with a handful of top officials. I want a practice nation human Rights Violations to keep us all occupy for a long time. I continue to stand for the family of george floyd. Derek chauvin and other officers held him down for eight minutes and 46 seconds under the unbearable weight of oppression. He could not breathe and we could not breathe. The minnesotass top Law Enforcement official preemptively declared this would be a case difficult to prosecute. As hard as it is to accept given the evidence we have seen with our own eyes, it is consistent with the American Experience a cousin existing laws that basically give Carte Blanche to Law Enforcement to kill at will with the utterance of the three words, the five words, i fear for my life. He was killed in his apartment complex eating a bowl of ice cream. His killer said that she was instructed. If you cannot see the suspects hands, shoot him. Also gunned down in her own home after leaving the door open to catch a cool breeze of relief Police Officer aaron dean in the privilege of her home, saw her standing in the window and shot her in the bedroom as she played video games with her nephew. The beautiful families ive traveled with represent a crosssection of america. Disproportionately black undeniably strong, and committed to the cause of justice and policing. Think kluth the father of a young woman named maggie brooks, her father a fire chief in arlington, texas. Accidentally shot by a Police Officer who recklessly shot at her sixmonthold puppy, killing her. Qualified immunity has been her access to the court. Under current federal laws, there will be no criminal or civil liability for this officer. They include the family of michael dean, who went out to get his sixyearold daughter a birthday cake and never made it home. I wish i could tell you what happened to michael but the video was still not released by the department though the officer has been indicted on manslaughter charge charges. Still not allowed to see they have denied access shot in his place of business and home. The chief of police in kansas city missouri, has broken with the local District Attorney and refuse to submit a probable cause affidavit in the case making prosecution very difficult. A euro from chicago, working as a Security Guard at a nightclub when the nation was hobbling from one mass shooting to another, a gunman entered the club and began shooting indiscriminately. He waited for police to arrive. He shot him three times, killing him. No accountability in that case. Looking at the clock i am sorry, am i over . Take your time and wrap it up. He was 17 when he ran from a traffic stop. The officer who killed him had been sworn into the department that day after another jurisdiction under concerns of racism and brutality. The question we must ask is what will we do about all of this . Will future generations look back with pride that we confronted greatest evils with real courage or will they be disappointed because we had a moment to make change possible. Right now, the answer hangs in the balance. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the opportunity to testify for today on policies that promote accountability and respect the dignity of all people. Thank you for your leadership and for the justice in policing act. The recent murder at the hand of Police Officers have put the issue of Police Brutality in the national spotlight. The outpouring of pain and anger is anything but a reaction to isolated incidents. It is a response to a long history of violence with impunity and is Law Enforcement leaders havent knowledged, the modernday criminalization of people of color, policing have involved the enforcement of laws and too many communities in this country. We are now in a turning point and there is no return to normal. We need to create a true a new way forward that creates accountability for communitys. It is imperative to get this right. Congresss response in this moment reflects the important work of black lives matter that have brought us to where we are today. My tenure began two months after Michael Brown was killed by a Police Officer in the Justice Department is hardly perfect but we understood our mandate to promote accountability and constitutional policing to build community trust. During the obama administration, we opened 25 patterns of practice to help realize greater structural and Community Centered change often at the request of police chief and mayors around the country. After making findings, we negotiated Consent Decrees with extensive Stakeholder Engagement to overhaul of unlawful practices and develop mechanisms for accountability. Police departments around the country studied president obamas 21st Century Policing report to advance best practices. That is not the Justice Department we have today. Under attorneys general Jeff Sessions and bill barr, the department has add abdicated its responsibility and abandon the use of tools. The disruption of crucial work of the Civil Rights Division is deeply concerning. The Leadership Fund in a new era of Public Safety on Police Reform, and building Community Police trust. A lot of the changes have to happen at the state and local level. On june 1, the Leadership Conference of more than 450 Rights Offering critical reckoned recommendations to move forward to the path of accountability. Requiring robust data collection. To cut off prohibiting an increasing the Justice Departments authority creating a Police Misconduct registry and ending qualified immunity. These are the responses to meet the moment will find yourselves in. We have seen these nibbling at the edges policies, we continue to grapple with Police Officers killing africanamericans with police accountability. It must be the cornerstone of any meaningful first steps. This moment of reckoning requires more than tinkering at the edges. It requires leaders, together with communities from both parties, to envision a new paradigm of Public Safety, not just changing practices but ultimately shrinking the footprint of the criminal Justice System. That means shifting our approach to Public Safety away from schools to investment all have given voice to these issues. When we finally stop is a criminal justice and social policy, we will make this safer. George floyds death impact of world and is on us to change it. Mr. Logan. Has it been the talk of the Police Officer getting out of the does it change the equation . I am a little older and closer to senator bookers age. That is not old here. [laughter] i guess in my history, mainly growing up in new jersey, i imagine i was pulled over recently if policing is more like the community, you think that helps including minority officers and women . I would say that in camden, we have officers walk around and get to know us, and it was a very diverse police force as we shifted to the county and that meant a whole lot. To you think that means as much as minority officers . It is how you do it as much as who you are. I got you. I know you are a preacher. I have got to move on. [laughter] maher, are you with us . Yes. Do you have the same problems they have in minneapolis . Mr. Chairman, i would say the issue down to one department [indiscernible] my question is what have you done in st. Paul that has not been done in minneapolis . Your last question about hiring diverse officers. [indiscernible] were not done correcting the culture. [indiscernible] clicks ok. During the eight years with president obama, was there an effort to get rid of immunity for Police Officers question mark im not talking about conversations. Was there legislation . No. Was or any legislation created a National Registry for violent act by the police . There were efforts to create a National Registry. I just missed a lot of that. This is a tough time for that for the country. Trump is a handful but we are not here because the failings of one administration. We are here because of the failing of society. The things we want to do now could have been done years ago. Lets do the things now that makes sense. Lets do the things now we should have done 50 years ago. I come from South Carolina. We have completely different experiences with the cops. There is no getting around that. It is time to have an honest conversation about why is that how can it be that if you are United States senator from South Carolina and youre black, you get stopped five or six times and when white, you never get stopped . How can it be that people died because of a 20 bill in custody for not threatening anybody. Heres what i worry about the most. It is hard to be a cop. Lets make sure we do not ask do not destroy the ability to be a cop in the process of trying to fix things that need to be fixed. I do not want the cop to lose their house but i do want people not to think twice if they have got a police force, about how to organize it and how to train it. That is when change will happen, when people feel the sting of that policy. To the extent that any of you on this side, my democratic colleagues, want to get there count me in. There are a bunch of us who would like to get there i look forward to this discussion and missile be the first of several hearings to get to it that looks like. It seems to me that the chokehold should be banned from detention use, except in certain life or death circumstances. A growing number of state and local Law Enforcement agencies are banning the use of chokeholds. As i understand it, los angeles Police Department recently directed officers not to use chokeholds that restrict blood flow to the brain, also known as carotid restraints. I think we should deal with it in the justice and policing act do you believe there should be any exception to the ban, lethal forces used against an officer or someone else . If not, why not . And we go right down and have everyone answer . Could you turn on your microphone . I will figure that out today. I would be absolutely for no more chokeholds. I would lean into the best brains and minds on lethal force until that, once there is engagement between the person, between the citizen and the officer, that is where we get the challenge. So i would be opposed to chokeholds. X can we go down the road and down the line, and can someone respond to lifeanddeath circumstances as one exception please . I would be in favor of ending the chokehold except for when deadly for this in fact authorized under the law. It seems like that would be an appropriate time to use whatever means it takes to survive the encounter from a Law Enforcement perspective. I believe of the myriad of ways Law Enforcement engages in violence in this community, we should really be focusing on changing the mission in terms of whether or not this should be taking place at all, whether Law Enforcement officers should be engaged in a war on drugs which leads to a repeated violent encounters. Chokeholds are inherently dangerous maneuvers and have been banned, heavy and as you noted, in jurisdictions including new york, atlanta washington dc, and miami. I wish the act had been proposed several years ago. These are longstanding problems to be making these fixes now. Next question, in a simple way for a nonlawyer audience, how does qualified immunity work . Why is it a problem and what happens if congress eliminates the defense of qualified immunity . Qualified immunity said if an officer in good faith believe what he was doing was in line with the responsibility of a Police Officer, if he believes that and even if it turns out to be wrong, then he is immune not only from conviction, but he is immune from there is no discovery and no continuation of a similar civil or criminal process. Lets let you believe there . Should that be changed . You take the example of the case i brought up, the officer in good faith shot thought he was shooting at a dog. It was reckless behavior and something he should not have been engaged in but he thought he was protecting himself from a sixmonthold puppy that was charging at him. In the process, he killed a woman. Should he or his department be immune . Absolutely not. You should be held accountable for reckless behavior and the damage it caused. Thank you. I believe that is a part of transparency and accountability and will serve as a deterrent and hold officers at a higher accountability when there will be repercussions. Without that, than the culture comprehensively will have a feel of, i can do what i want and get away with it. Elevate to ask the panel, if you could reflect on the use of a no knock warrant and the impact that would have on communities of color particularly those with strained relations with the police. Breonna Taylor Taylor was killed asleep in her house. There have been a lot of highprofile tragedies as a result of the wines over used in drug cases in particular. The list is long and i would be happy to provide the committee with some cases but it is time to regulate those. Thank you. We believe the no knock warrant should be banned. There is a preference before the Supreme Court in favor of protecting Citizens Rights in one of the most sacred places. The idea of a no knock warrant like in the case of Breonna Taylor to allow Law Enforcement to violate their citizens in such a way, i dont believe that would be appropriate. Thank you. I would align myself with my colleagues. Yes, no knock warrants has a tone of guilty until proven innocent. As a homeowner father, husband if i respond wrong, i can be debt, and she is a warning we should ban no knock warrants. Thank you. Im sorry. First of all, thank you for the hearing. The murder of george floyd by Police Officers, a Police Officer, ignited the call for reform to rectify the lingering racism the our country. That plagues our country. Week we will take action to prevent more tragedy and unnecessary deaths. The vast majority of Law Enforcement officers deserve respect and support. The murder of george floyd shows they were not doing enough to prevent abuse by police. I welcome tough conversation. I have an oversight career of rooting out instances where accountability is needed. I led the first step back to rectify shortcomings of our criminal Justice System, which impacts disproportionally minority men and women. I investigated the 27 shooting of a man, which revealed instances of poor deescalation tactics and inappropriate aggressive use of force. We must come together and address the use of force, racial biases, please abuse, and we must do it now. My first question is this, i have long supported efforts to increase transparency and accountability of all government actors, Police Officers are no different. That is why i cosponsored the bill which would increase transparency by the use of force by requiring reports, where there has been death or serious injury because just a minority of the jurisdictions are reporting that, so my first question to you sir is i assume this data would be helpful understanding how to prevent unnecessary use of force. So if so, how can increase transparency into incidents of deadly or unnecessary use of force help protect members of the community as well as Police Officers . Thank you for this question senator grassley. If we collected data nationally, that would be useful to preventing those Going Forward but just as important is collecting information where deadly force could have been used, but wasnt. Those of the data that have been historically missing in part of why the analyses have been inconclusive. I want to focus on the right kind of analyses, because they will inform the decisionmaking. Thank you. Police officers should be seen not just as enforcers of the law, but neighbors and members of the community however, many cops dont live in the area they patrol so unnatural divide and mistrust can form. I will start with mayor carter. How can we encourage more engagement and trust between Police Officers and those that they patrol . Thank you it is an important question. I appreciate it. I think torture can officers i think what you are getting at our officers [indiscernible] i think that it is important. [indiscernible] i will yield. Im sorry. Did i interrupt him . Your answer, and then i will yield to the next questioner. No, absolutely, it can be useful for the communities to see themselves reflected in their Law Enforcement protectors. It should be on culture, not just policies. Im giving them the tools so the people get advanced, hired, and fired reflect the Cultural Values of the community, rather than just set the policies. Culture eats policy for breakfast. We would do well to remember that. Thank you. Senator lahey. Thank you. I appreciate this hearing, but especially appreciate the testimony we have heard. Now, im going to ask a question in an area she is well familiar with. We have seen the track records, patterns of investigations and what it can do, but despite the track record of reducing shootings, the Justice Department has effectively abandoned those investigations in the use of said Consent Decrees. I dont believe a single one has been enforced under President Trump. You are a former head of the Justice Department and Civil Rights Division, how do those investigations and Consent Decrees make a difference in changing Police Practices . Well, the Justice Department use this tool judiciously. They would conduct an investigation after being aware of systemic problems in the Police Department, six months to one year, a deep investigation and interviews with hundreds of Community Residents Police Officers, please leadership, looking at data, Statistical Analysis training, accountability supervision and if they made us claim, they would published report and begin to negotiate a Consent Decree. On rare occasions, it would involve legislation in the city would produce a document that would allow for politics to be taken out and long stem term sustainable change it will send a message if you dont use these tools to document Police Misconduct, doesnt that say we will close our eye to it . It has sent a danger signal to shut this down. It creates a culture of impunity and a sense there is a Watchdog Agency through administrations has played an Important Role in ensuring the reason i asked the question, and i dont think of it as a microcosm of the country , but i have never heard across the little political spectrum the concerns i see h country. People say this movement will not go away, as others have. I hope they are right. What would you tell members of congress . Waiting and seeing means more people will die and undermine any concept we have a legal system that is legitimate and fair, and that undermines Public Safety. I happen to agree with you. I have a question on the other civil rights issue, Legal Protections against Police Brutality would be meaningful if they could be enforced in a court of law. I was a lawyer prosecutor, and many opposed making changes to the qualified immunity doctrine. It is evident it has prevented victims of Police Brutality. They argue it opens up to litigation. How do you respond to that . First, we have done a review of case law in the area, and several officers over time that have been granted qualified immunity. In other words, he is right to benefit using the need to kill somebody. Yes, using the need to kill somebody that you qualified immunity in america. You flood the courts with cases of officers killing people. Most nations dont have that a legitimate concern. Only in america is that a problem. The answer is stop killing so many people. Thank you. I have other questions. Can i submit them . Thank you. Absolutely. Can i think all the witnesses. I would like to ask the witnesses to tell us if they believe the Police Department and the police in america are systemically racist. Would anybody like to agree with that statement . Im sorry. Professor logan. I cant see that far away. Thats right. That means all 800,000 officers, is that true . If you counted in the system. I dont know all 18,000, but the system itself has systemic racism. Im sorry, if i may, senator. The reason why i have observed all please police are involved in systematic racism is because their system is bad. They go in and find guns and drugs and punish wrongdoers. The problem in the innercity community are blight, poverty sickness, homelessness. Those arent situations necessarily remedied by a man with a gun, but rather the appropriate social Workers Health care workers to remedy the problems. When we concentrate our communities, black and Brown Community specifically, with militarized police in which you will have disproportionate use of force and incarceration of black and brown people. To the extent you are suggesting were asking lawenforcement officials to do more than enforce the law, to be social workers, Mental Health providers and the like, i think chief brown said we ask our police to do too much and that is probably true in my view. A number of jurisdictions have experimented successfully with a team approach. For example, to reduce or deescalate confrontation when it comes to Mental Illness or the like, and certainly all of us see the benefit of deescalation training. To what extent is the problem we have with excessive use of force and the lack of trust with police a matter of class as opposed to race . It doesnt depend on the color of your skin but whether you are poor or lack opportunities in our society . In the United States of america, it is difficult to disentangle those two, and i dont think there isnt an institution suffering from Structural Racism, given our history. I think taking action in the moment is to recognize there are things that congress can do to end of the killings in our streets, provide Law Enforcement with training, make National Standards on things that shouldve had National Standards years ago. This is the time to take action given the pain on the streets and in the communities and this is just the reality of what communities have been experiencing. I dont have long to ask questions. You changed the phrase from systemic to Structural Racism. What does that mean . Everything institution, every person in america is racist . There is biases built into institutions. There are any number of Courageous Police who have spoken about systemic racism in history. You think systemic or Structural Racism can exist in a system that requires individual responsibility or do you think it is one of the other . I think every American Institution has been shaped by these forces, and our goal is to do what we can as policymakers and advocates to fight it in the modernday iterations that it appears. Do you agree basically that all americans are racists . I think we all have racial biases, yes, we do. I think we are an amazing country that strives to be better every day. Thats why i went into government to make a more perfect union. You you lost me when you took the acts of a few malicious individuals and subscribe that to all americans. 800,000 Police Officers, 18,000 Police Departments. Thank you for your answer. Somebody has the microphone on. Could you please mute it from the remote location . Ok. Senator durbin. Thank you mr. Chairman. I think what we find i didnt ask you a question. If you take a look at our system of justice and start with the premise that there is an equal percentage of white and black drug users. Now you look at the number arrested for the use of drugs more blacks than whites. The number convicted prosecuted incarcerated dramatically larger among the africanamerican population. There is something built into our system that does not equate criminal disposition towards the penalties. My only suggestion is that. Will be my suggestion was that was a function of poverty. The result is the same. I would like for the chairman to consider this. Back in the day before i was elected to congress, i was defending the sheriff of a rural county in illinois being sued for the mistreatment of a prisoner in jail. How did i end up defending him . Not because i was the state attorney or in public office, but because i work for an insurance company. It turned out the county in illinois had an insurance policy that covered the sheriff, so when the sheriff was sued for wrongdoing as the sheriff ultimately, the county stepped in and indemnified him for any liability he might have, so it turns out to mr. Chairman, 99 to 100 of these cases against the wrongdoing of an individual officer is an employer who steps in and provides an insurance policy and coverage that pays what needs to be paid. As a former trial lawyer, i did not go after motorcycle defendants. I was looking for insurance policies. I think the personal liability issue you raised is covered by the fact that 99 to 100 of these cases involve insurance policies but never get to the question of liability because they cant get around the basic issue of qualified immunity. They cant match up on all four conduct with misconduct that has been tried. Is that your experience . Those are guilty should be held on the basis of what theyre doing. Can i ask this question . We talked a lot about the conduct about those in Law Enforcement, and i recently had a roundtable last friday in chicago, and a representative of the National Alliance of Mental Illness, and we know Mental Illness is part of this conversation and what we found was an eyeopener from the viewpoint of Law Enforcement officers, the highest incidence of suicide among any profession in america are men and women in Law Enforcement, and they have five times as frequently ptsd and depression. It appears there are some issues when their lifestyles, job, availability of weapons the stress they go through creates a vulnerable population among Law Enforcement officials. I believe we need to address in happy to cosponsor legislation that addresses that side of the equation. We have seen it in videotape and proven it. There has been racism and unfairness in our administration of justice, but we also try to address in parts of this bill the training of those in Law Enforcement to try to find those not stable, not fair, bias, and those who should not have a badge and a gun. So let me just address that for a moment. It strikes me we have to consider that aspect if we want a police force in the future. They always had provisions on officer wellness and Mental Health issues among Police Officers was a big concern around accountability, discipline, and the like, and that was built into these Consent Decrees. The other issue around escalation, use of force training, bringing Mental Health teams in so Mental Health officials compare with Police Officers on the scene. That was another thing that was really common. Why was the one officer with his knee on the neck of that man, killing him i believe he had shackled him at some point so he was no visible threat what were the other officers doing . Why wasnt there some intervention . Some explained to me because there is a military structure to our police, the chain of command makes. Intervention difficult, if not possible. We have to talk about that when we talk about policing in the future. Senator lee . Thank you. We all know about the brutal and senseless killing of george floyd in minneapolis. There is no excuse, nor can there be for what the police did to mr. Floyd. His killers are being brought to justice. His death, we hope, will not be remembered solely for being a senseless act of violence that falsely was launched in his name, but rather hopefully his memory will be made permanent in our National Consciousness in the longterm reform of policing policies across the country. In utah, the city of alden, it is still mourning the death of a Police Officer. On may 28, woman called 911 saying her husband was threatening her life. He and a group of officers arrived promptly at the home. The man inside began shooting at him. He was mortally wounded. The officer was only 24 years old. He was about to celebrate his fifth wedding anniversary to his wife, ashley. He had been on the job as a Police Officer for just 15 months. By all accounts, he did his job honorably and completely, very much up until the moment he drew his last breath after being mortally wounded on the job. He sought to uphold justice and protect the innocent, even making the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of a threatened and fearful family. His loss really is our loss, a loss for everyone. George floyds loss is a loss for everyone as well. We have to remember and revere them both. I think we can do precisely that. The residents of oregon, utah are an example of how that can happen. They came together peacefully to draw attention to these tragic deaths. This is a protest that ended and started peacefully and brought members of the Ogden Community together rather than pull them apart. This is an important issue that we have to continue to focus on. In 2012 in camden, new jersey, new jersey had the highest rate of crime in the nation. In addition, the Police Department in camden, new jersey discovered extension extensive evidence. The behavior was so pervasive that the convictions had to be reversed as a result of it. As a result, the governor and mayor decided to disband the camden, new Jersey Police force and transfer the policing of the city to the county. Notably, the rebuilding of this new metro Police Department move forward without the involvement of a number of people previously involved in it. Officers from the disbanded department was invited to apply for the new police force, over 100, a little less than half eventually rehired. As a result of this restructuring, response times improved. Now a person waiting for a please respond or waits an average of 4. 4 minutes, instead of the previous average, which was 60 minutes. Violent crime has dropped 42 in just seven years. All of this was done without a union. All this was done by freeing the department from a collective Bargaining Agreement that had previously locked the city and the city Police Department into an unholy alliance with officers who had violent and lawless tendencies. This brought about by what all observable metrics seem to be a better set of circumstances, so mr. Logan, thank you for being here and for your healing words. I appreciate your account of the progress made in camden. You mentioned the difficult balance that has to be struck in order to empower Police Officers to do the difficult work and hold accountable those who disregard the justice they are entrusted to uphold. Did this restructuring that happened in camden, tell me how it helps to recalibrate that balance between power and authority you mentioned. Thank you, senator. I would say that they listen to the people, from town Hall Meetings to conversations, they begin to hear from regular residents. I remember governor christie came to all near my house several clergyman speak to the struggles, challenges, fears and issues of camden in its broken state. The mayor did a great job of hearing and restating to make sure we were heard. As the new officers walked the streets, as a preacher im good for a block party in an impromptu cookout. I was cooking on the corner and the officer said im going to go get more hotdogs because we were out. This officer goes and gets hotdogs and comes back, and he is electric sliding. That would never have happened in camden. That relationship now if that officer was to pull over somebody, it changes the whole story, and so that accountability, the relationship created accountability that was put in place because now a big thing that happened in camden is we didnt their faces were visible in conversations were constantly happening. We had the baseball cards with Police Officers. All those things were built into our connection, a relationship, which allow for a level of trust. In 10 seconds, i got pulled over in front of my house, had a cookout, coming back with food, and one of the officers was talking a little rough, and i was at my house. The officer said something to the effect of, you are the pastor right . He was like, calm down. He lives right here. It was that simple. I dont know if that story would have been the same in 2006 2007 , that murder was in front of my Church Building on saturday night, and they still had the tape out when i showed up sunday morning, and are come to creation our congregation cried. We prayed that things would change. We had a good mayor who came to my church and visited a couple of times. I have family that lives there now and they are benefiting from a new Police Department. Senator, if you dont mind me adding briefly . I taught at morehouse college. I will be very brief. One thing to the point is they made a particular effort to recruit from camden, so one of my students is a Police Officer in camden. When he goes into the rougher neighborhoods, they know jimmy. That does make a difference, to your point. Yes, this committee is an interesting experience. I learned a lot. What percentage of the police force was minority before . I dont have the numbers before. After it was 50 . The concern was most people came from neighboring communities. That is as important as the racial makeup of the police force. Studies about diversity and Law Enforcement, it matters deeply for trust, but studies show that diversity does not impact use of force rates and misconduct in the way one would anticipate. That is what i am learning from this hearing. Senator whitehouse . I want to take a moment on one section, the primary vehicle for assessing liability for Police Misconduct. As you also know, the primary defense against that liability the defense of qualified immunity which is a subject that the bookerharris legislation. It limits liability, narrows the window of conduct for which an officer can be held liable, and its original purpose was to protect the individual officer. At the same time it does that it deprives the injured or wronged person, and also it puts the signal back into the agency that something is wrong because they got away with it, because of qualified immunity. So we have heard today Police Officers are almost always indemnified by their departments. It is interesting to think of it, because the only way you get qualified immunity is if a reasonable person would have known it was unconstitutional and that group of people who reasonably should have known what they did was unconstitutional, they are getting indemnified. Its not like where you have bad cases in good cases. Indemnification is the constant here. There is another report that describe it as occurring virtually always. So one wonders why the department should be obliged to pay, and it seems there are a lot of obvious reasons. One, they set the policy that officers follow three, they established the training, they dominate the culture that the officers follow, and finally, they provide the discipline that the officers must adhere to. They are the employers in a nutshell so i looked outside the police cases to regular Employer Liability and there we find an ancient doctrine, vicarious liability, in which if you are acting within the scope of your employment, your employer owns it, and ups drivers drive really safely because ups knows they own those accidents. They will lean towards people who are bonded because they know if they mess up, the company will own it. The incentives are in the right place. Here is my worry and what i would like you to think about. We have a couple of choices p could leave qualified immunity alone. I think that would be a terrible mistake. So that means we should strip out qualified immunity, then we can do just that and hope that indemnity survives, but as you said, there could be a flood of cases that qualified indemnity has kept out of the courtroom. And right now indemnification of officers stands on a fairly rickety structure of policy practice, municipal ordinance state law, do you agree with that . So far, yes. You have tried these cases. You know this. If there is a surge in cases it seems to me we need to lock down where everyone is right now which is indemnification. Officers should stay indemnified. One of the oldest and most established doctrines in the law would provide that, and that would be a sensible backstop to make sure if an officer does something wrong, he doesnt lose his house, and meet all of our concern that the department gets behind the policy, procedure training, culture, and discipline that will prevent these things from happening in the first place. So given those three choices leave qualified immunity alone. Strip out qualified immunity but dont touch indemnification or strip out qualified immunity and protect indemnification and make sure officers are indemnified. Which would you recommend . Moving, the third option, that ensures the entity does a quality check on their employees. Nothing new under the law . It has been around forever and is the status quote, is it not . Thats correct. Anything to add . I agree. I will yield back the time i have gone over. You can tell five minutes is subjective here. Senator hawley. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Professor logan, if i could come back to you. I am a little familiar, probably not as i should be, but camden. I had the privilege of hearing you preach and thank you for your continuing ministry. Can i ask you to come back to your experience in camden. I read your testimony. At the risk of having you repeat yourself, but i dont think it will do any harm, if you talk about the restructuring that you helped to participate in, Police Coming to your block in groups of two or three. You said our problems will not be solved overnight. Im wondering if you could elaborate on that. Could you just pick that back up and talk to us about what that looked like in camden and what you saw be successful there and how building those relationships and what that and . That meant . , always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time. I always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time, especially when we are changing culture. An officer was with 17 strikes was training, the officer who killed george floyd, we were Training Officers with a bad culture blending into the culture, added to the systemic issues already and so if were going to change something, we have to change culture so the crockpot reality was listening and learning and trying to legislate. The crockpot reality, the slow cooker, taking our time was not just going to be through money added, grabbing africanamericans in the tino and calling that diversity and latinos, and calling that diversity. It was gonna take a long overhaul in a long build out. I applaud the government workers in camden who took their time and work it through, a comprehensive and collective overhaul, because they called and people from all over the city to participate in that, and that took time. Camden, we saw multiple murders. I did multiple funerals of kids under 15, and on the other hand it felt very, very unsafe. All of us wanted to say, you have to fix this now but it was a crockpot repair. As you look back, what are the pieces that stick out to you being the most significant, that really move the ball forward the most . I think it was the Community Policing, where those relationships were developed where they were visible and active. That Community Policing was a big deal. And second, hearing from the residents in multiple groups, particularly the pastors, and the mayor did good to pull in as many as she could, so that Relational Community aspect was really a beautiful element that helped greatly. Very good. Any written testimony, you talk about in her written testimony, you talk about the flaws asking police to fix upstream problems. Can you talk to us about what you mean by upstream problems and tell us more what you mean about that . That seems like a significant point you are making there. It has been said here on this committee that a Police Officer is given a task that social worker the second decisionmaking, and yes, it is difficult, he is dealing, trying to administer mercy, trying to do so much, and i want to give credit to those officers who navigate that, but my colleague told us that we failed miserably and we kill a lot of people in america through police, and other countries havent, so when we put if my plumbing backs up i will not call an electrician, because he will probably mess up my plumbing, so when we put plumbing problems on electricians, they mess up your plumbing, so when we put so much on police and that is why the system is messed up, because they shouldnt have to do that, so that upstream problem, it is difficult navigating an almost unfair. Thats why we talk about the broken nature of the system. Can you just give us an example you think of as an upstream problem, up just to help us get our hands around it . I will use a negative. Mr. Brooks in atlanta, the officer showed up to ask him, to talk with him. I felt they were applying not just justice, but mercy. He was saying, i can just walk home. So now they are navigating a few areas. Are they supposed to do justice, mercy and honor . And so in light of that, that is so much to juggle and handle. Yeah im a little emotional. I saw that video and it is messing with my head a little bit even as we sit here. We give too much to do to officers and we dont train them properly. I think we need to parse this out and restructure completely because we need structural change. [indiscernible] you bet. Absolutely. I think we are finding out no amount of Law Enforcement, no amount of use of force can secure destiny [indiscernible] we cant be the social workers. We cant and [indiscernible] we can never find the resources [indiscernible] that supply we are putting social workers [indiscernible] thank you, mayor. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator klobuchar. Thank you. I appreciate mr. Logans words and emotion. I think we are all feeling that. Mayor carter, it is hard to hear parts of your story, but just so my colleagues can hear it, you were talking about how your grandpa worked at that railroad in minnesota and how he was called george. In fact, all the porters were called george so the white passengers only had to hear one name, and out of that, and learn what name, your dad becomes one of the first africanamerican Police Officers in the city of st. Paul, and you talked about how you thought about your dad and i know you still do, and the people around him, the officer sees ers he knew as superheroes. Talk about why it is so important to have this systemic change with policing from your personal experience. Senator, thank you for the question. It is important. Our officers are just as disgusted by the video. [indiscernible] and so we are connected with on our officers [indiscernible] that is one of the reasons why it is so important to constantly integrate officers into our community. [indiscernible] we talk all the time about that. It is part of our training, our mission. [indiscernible] ok. Thank you. Im going to ask a question, but i will have you follow up on the record. I know senator graham was asking you about other Police Departments, and i think you were trying to make the point this is happening all over the country, not just in one department, so i want to give you a chance on the record later to answer that, but i will turn my remaining time to miss cuba googleupta. Do you think that such a pattern and practice investigation is needed . Yes, i do. Right before the hearing started, we have done two now, i got a response from mr. Boyd, the assistant attorney general. And they did not commit to doing this investigation. They said the section may initiate a civil action in the name of the United States for appropriate injunctive relief. We will consider the evidence in this case as well as any additional evidence that comes to our attention. Do you think there is enough evidence out there to embark on this investigation . I think the years of systemic problems in the Minneapolis Police department, coupled with the killing of mr. Floyd and other Police Misconduct in minneapolis would merit a pattern of practice investigation. , also know some of the Consent Decrees when you lead the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, we required the banning of the use of chokehold scum is that right . Thats right. Thats one example of something that can come out of the Consent Decree . Yes. Because we have not had that Justice Department pattern of practice investigation, in addition to the attorney generals investigation of the case in his prosecution of the case, we now have our Minnesota Department of human rights stepping in to look at the department. Senator harris was talking about the importance of having outside investigations, which i strongly supported when i was a prosecutor. We had some issues with the Minneapolis Police trying to take those investigations inhouse, but in addition to that states, especially now they could step in to oversee these investigations, as well as oversee a similar version of pattern of practice. Can you address that . Consent decrees are not a substitute for National Legislation on this issue because otherwise it is jurisdiction to jurisdiction, even according to the mandate. On this other point other independent offices doing these investigations so while i want the Civil Rights Division to be given the authority it needs to have, it is also important to request it from others as well. Thank you. Thank you for convening this hearing, thank you to each of the witnesses for coming. This is a time when our country is torn apart, is filled with anger, rage, division. It is my hope that through this weekend find ways to come together on shared principles. Here is one proposition i believe everyone in this hearing room agrees with. What happened to george floyd was horrific. It was unconscionable. It was clearly a grotesque abuse of police power, and the officers that carried out are rightly being prosecuted. To the best of my knowledge every witness here today agrees with those statements. And every senator on this committee agrees with those statements. I think all of us regardless of party, should demand justice and should demand that the law be applied fairly regardless of race. That is a promise our country was found aspiring to, and a country with a deeply troubled history working to achieve. I also think it is true that any time you have government power that there is a risk of abuse and we have a responsibility to protect individual rights against the abuse of governmental authority. At the same time, some of the rhetoric that has been used in the wake of mr. Floyds killing has been inaccurate and harmful. A great many of our colleagues use the phrase systemic racism to suggest the entire criminal Justice System is imbued with racism. I dont believe that is accurate. Some of our colleagues have said, and this is a quote from earlier in the hearing, nothing has changed. From the days dr. King stood on the steps of the lincoln memorial. I think that is demonstrably false. A great deal has changed since then. Our country has made a journey. Senator booker said dr. King pointed to the arc of history bending towards justice. We have traveled along that arc. We no longer have jim crow laws, segregated schools. We no longer have open bigotry that was so pervasive just a generation ago when our country. And i think for young people to say nothing has changed gives them a false and inaccurate picture of this country. When you point to systemic racism, something our democratic colleagues often point to as the cause of this, it is worth noting that in minneapolis, the police chief is a democrat, the mayor is an elected democrat, every member of the city council is an elected democrat, the attorney general is an elected democrat, both senators are elected democrats. Now, dont for a moment to leave that every one of those elected officials is part of systemic racism and oppression, and to tell the american citizens that is what is going on is misleading them and it is harmful. Are there bigots . Yes. Are there people who violate the law . Yes, and they should be prosecuted, just like the officers who killed mr. Floyd but to impugn the integrity of everyone working in Law Enforcement is a disservice to this nation. There has been a lot of discussion there has been a lot of discussion of abolishing police has become a new political cause celebre. I want to point is committed to an article entitled policing the police. The impact of pattern or practice investigations on crime. And with the chairmans permission i would like to enter in this article into the record. It is by two economist at harvard university. A word of caution. Because there is a lot of discussion from our democratic friends thing we need more department of justice pattern of practiced investigations into Police Departments. That has become one of the frequent refrains. Let me read from the conclusions from this study because if we care about saving peoples lives , conclusions of this study should give us real cause for concern. Here is what the study concluded. They examined all of the Police Departments in which pattern of practice investigations had been launched, and they found a real difference for those investigations where there was not what they called a viral incident. Of violence on a civilian they found that did not increase crime. But here is what they found. All of the investigations that were preceded by viral incidents of definitely force deadly force led to an increase of homicide in total crimes. We estimate these investigations caused almost 900 access homicide and almost 34,000 excess felonies. So of the members of this committee agreed that black lives matter, demonizing the police, causing them to pull back from protecting peoples lives will predictably cause more black lives to be taken. And so, i urge that we proceed with caution, with a commitment to justice, and a commitment to truth. Thanks, senator cruz. Senator croons. Is that allowing for responses to that . No. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The past three weeks since george floyd was murdered by Minneapolis Police. Has been both heartbreaking and the response nationally in some ways inspiring. It has ignited a conversation long overdue. And it requires that we act. This happens in the middle of two other crises, a Global Pandemic and an economic crisis, yet thousands of taken to the streets in every town in our country demanding action to advance justice and equality. The people are leading the way. It is up to us in congress to follow. And Rayshard Brooks name has been added to the list. May ask a few questions. We have not heard as much from dr. Goff as perhaps we should. On the line of questioning my two previous senators have pursued about these pattern and practice investigations, ones that look beyond just a focus on a single bad apple officer but look at the way an entire agency is being run, the way a whole department is operating and its consequences. Officer Derek Chauvin has 18 prior investigations. A Training Officer at the time of the murder of george floyd. I was proud to join my colleagues as a cosponsor of the justice and policing act. It would give the department of justice subpoena power. Why would that subpoena power be an important and useful tool and how do you think pattern and practice investigations can ultimately advance Public Safety . As a moment of privilege, i would like to enter into the record the ways in which the study that senator cruz mentioned that actually show the effectiveness of Consent Decrees, including a very recent one. I wanted to state that. On these Consent Decrees, the subpoena power is something that the Justice Department Civil Rights Division does not have. It was a real problem for instance when the Justice Department opened up a pattern or practice investigation into the Maricopa County Sheriffs Department with sheriff joe arpaio. We had their situation where the sheriff was unwilling to cooperate with the request for documents, the request for all kinds of information. That is typical around these kinds of investigations. It took at least a couple of years for the Justice Department to actually be able to litigate and win a judgment in court that gave us, that gave the Justice Department access. Meanwhile, the unconstitutional policing and profile and National Origin discrimination continue. Without that subpoena power, it really limited the ability of the Civil Rights Division to do its full job, and it can play a factor also sometimes, the Police Departments that may have the most policies you do not wanted to play a factor in limiting where the Justice Department is going to go, but if you got such an uncooperative situation, the lack of subpoena power impedes progress. Dr. Goff, literally to follow up on what we were talking about there. I am also a cosponsor of the end racial and religious profiling act incorporated into the justice in policing act. That bill would prohibit racial profiling and required data collection. Can you briefly explain how we could use that data on stop, searches and arrests to achieve more equitable and effective policing . Absolutely. The way we want to go about doing this is we do not want to just look at comparisons of race. It is not enough to say that black people are stuffed more often. It is not enough to say that black people have forced used on there more often. If we do not know the appropriate point of comparison. The senator asked how much is about poverty. [indiscernible] i take the senator to be asking in good faith. Scientists have to ask that question. We have to take into account crime rates and poverty rates before we make a determination that police have additional responsibilities above that. The robust analyses are clear. Crime and poverty are not sufficient to explain Racial Disparities and police stops or police use of force. They are a part of the issue. They are not the whole issue. If there were National Data collection on these elements, it would be possible for both federal scientists and the Broader Community to get a better sense of how large is the actual level of violence and where can we be targeting them . That is an essential piece of the equation if we are going to solve these problems. As we have heard from the mayor, from mr. Merritt, police are often our First Responders to a host of problems. They represent broader failings of our social safety net lack of affordable housing, substance abuse, Mental Health care. Hank can you explain how funding the social services would reduce the burden on Police Officers and lead to fewer deadly interactions between policing Community Members . There are places and United States where we do not think about policing as we do in our inner cities. The words inner cities have become code for where it is difficult to police because it is dangerous. The places where it is less difficult in our imagination are the places where if there is a Mental Health crisis you can call a doctor or clinician. If there is somebody acting out of school you can put them on time out but they are not a threat to anybody else. When communities have resources such that they do not need to call Law Enforcement for everything, then policing is easier. We are asking less of Police Departments and communities are safer. Wherever you do not have to call police, is safer. The word for this in most places is the suburbs. Law enforcement would like to have, even in the inner cities, of doing the same thing. For the communities most distressed and most vulnerable have the resources so they have to call less. If we invest in public Mental Health, resources will be there at instead of Law Enforcement having to respond. For each of those social else. Thank you. I and our whole panel for your powerful testimony today. Senator tillis. Thank you, mr. Chairman for holding this hearing. I hope it is one of several opportunities we have to talk about this. I also hope that we find a way to find Common Ground. I been heartened by a lot of the comments because it sounds like we all understand this a problem that we need to act on it. Then every once in a while i will hear a drift on my side or you all sides that makes me concerned that we will get close and then we will back off into our corners at the expense of making real progress. I think there is a chance to make real progress. When senator hawley was asking about upstream challenges, it reminded me of a few things i have tried to work on. Back in 2000, 2001 i was a town commissioner in a town in north carolina, and we did something that, it was a time of 25,000 people, most people were not doing and Police Departments but we started funding accreditation for colea. They talk about use of force. Deescalation. Community policing. Better educating and preparing Law Enforcement officers for difficult and dangerous situations. I think that every Law Enforcement agency, all 18,000 in the United States, need to raise the bar and make sure they are training the officers with the best available information. So that is one upstream. Making sure that our Law Enforcement officers are best prepared. They are good people, the vast majority. They just need training and situational awareness. Where they are in these untenable positions that humans make that mistakes. Not in the case of george floyd. That was a bad human making a bad mistakes. I hope he spends a lot of time in prison. The other upstream. It does go down to the excuse excuse me, the way that we engage the community. One of the reasons im in the senate now is a high challenge the twoterm republican for killing an at Risk Youth Center i was trying to get put into my community in an area where if we gave these kids an idea of something other than the day that the lives they lived every day, it would be a Safer Community for them in better outcomes. She killed and then i killed him in a primary and we are still working on that project. Also, i have to tell you the socioeconomic peace, and dr. Goff im going to ask a question on data. I am a data person. I remember id led the neighborhood in nashville, tennessee. Family fell on hard times. Had to sell the house. Moved into a trailer park a mile and a half down the road. I can tell you the police were crews and through that trailer park a lot more than that house i lived in a mile and a half down the road and they looked at you differently. There is a socioeconomic and racial component to this. We just have to recognize and work on it. Dr. Goff, i think the data ultimately is going to help us do a better job of coming up with good decision so we can come together on. I am going to contact you because i would like to talk about a more comprehensive view of all of the factors that need to lead into it. I feel like, for example, do we have data right now that would suggest there is a correlation between events that are occurring in a community and a bad outcome like we saw in minnesota . Do we have the data we need to where we can predict, based on certain circumstances, that a population, we need to intervene. Find a way to reach out to the community or Police Officers and say, there are lines in the community that make it more likely than not a bad outcome could occur. Is any Research Like that being done or du even get the point of my question, dr. Goff do you get the point of mice question . Can we figure out what is going to be the next ferguson, the next minneapolis . Are we collecting the data in do we have the techniques to do it. And i say that first of all, no, we are not collecting the data. What we are collecting in major cities. The 18,000 Police Departments 75 have 25 officers are fewer. There are 1000 apartments that is just one guy. In my mind it is not a matter of having to cast a wider net for data. It is a matter of having the ability to aggregate data that exists in one form or another so that we can use it in a predictive way over time. Thats right. Also we need the people who can do the analysis because data do not speak to us and lets we have got someone you can do a responsible analysis. Part of the question youre asking is about data from communities. We need to know how the community is feeling about Law Enforcement because the same on paper shooting that happens in a community that trust Law Enforcement feels protected very different outcomes than a shooting that happens where folks do not trust Law Enforcement. We need more indifferent and we also need the capacity to do that analysis. I thank you. I cannot imagine a better person to hopefully get us together and gain consensus on something that passes out of the senate and goes to the president s desk. I would encourage people not to draw bright light bright red lines. Senator blumenthal. Let me say i agree. We can get something done if we do it together. And i think were going to have to do it in the congressause the elephant in this room is the president of the United States who issued an executive order today that i think almost everyone privately would agree is mostly empty promises, no real change, no real standards that can be imposed. And so, werewn. I want to real lived up lift up and give voice to some of the young people i have heard of demonstrations all around the state of connecticut, 10 or 12 of them, young woman, 16 years old in high school. And she is telling us, wake up. Stand. They are going to run you around. Stand up. I want to enter in the record all of her poetry. Without objection. The voice ofsix years younger than her. They kill us because we are strong. They kill us because we arepowerful. Our lives matter. We deserve to breathe. That is what he said in a rally on sunday standing before 300 or so people in downtown new haven. And a Young Musician who stood with him, don pearson, who said i am here to say unfortunately i do not know a black man who is not in some way george floyd. I simply want to meet some black man in my lifetime who has never had any negative encounter with police. I think that americans are awakening to them. As a result of my wonder for colleagues, senators booker and harris, but i think we are in a moment of reckoning. And as a prosecutor, a Law Enforcement person for most of my career, 4. 5 years andtes and 20 years as attorney general, i know that the best laws on the books are dead letter. If they are on enforced. Almost six years ago, i helped to lead the death in custody act which requiredting of all deaths in custody. That law has never been implemented. They reported in 2018 and we still do not have that information. I think we need far more than numbers and information. We need real enforcement. That what really concentrates the mind is the prospect of a criminal a felony, federal conviction. I want to ask about section 242. One of the principal steps in the policing and justice act that you endorse persuasively in your testimony is the in state of mind requirement. That would be r from willfully to knowingly with reckless disregard. You were responsible in the department of justice for helping to enforce this measure. Could you please explain to americans why that change would make a difference and why it would act as a deterrent to the kind of brutal killing that we saw in georg floyd and the other countless atrocities th have happened in recent weeks and months . Currently the Justice Department has only one statute they can use to prosecute Police Officers who violate the law. Criminally. An it has the highest criminal intent standard there is in the law. Requires not only that a prosecutor be able to prove that the officer used an unreasonable amount of force but also that the officer at the time you that what he or she was doing was unlawful but did it anyway. Standard. It has meant in far too many cases that, that has been terrible cases not had jurisdiction to prosecute. Justice department prosecutors have long wanted to be able to expand options to allow for prosecution of Police Misconduct cases in the criminal context with a slightly lower standard that would include reckless negligence. Ive the option would go a long way to ensuring that criminal individual officers that engaged in these blatantly misconduct would be held to ac thank you. T this congress could take that the department of justice would take directly as opposed to providing for cartots and sticks and that is the department of justice to this provision is in the justice and policing at. I just want to say for any of us who watched that video with officer Derek Chauvin with his knee on George Floyds not here he looked straight into the cameras. He looked at them for a long time because he in no w that he would ever be held to account for his actions. E over and over is country, there has not been accountability criminally or civil for qualified immunity protection, for officers that he behave this way. There is no way to understand the look on Office Search robbins phase and not look directr completely poor accountab look get officer Derek Chauvins face and not look directly at the poor systems of accountability. Civil action when a policeman or anybody else is convicted of a crime, he or she has to serve the time. Ere is no indemnification, yes. And criminal accountability as we know is different. Itbut obviously criminal accountability, and i will say this, i said this at the Justice Department is not a substitute for the systemic reforms that deals wi that deal with training and ac systems, but it is a crucial i will just finished by saying i totally agree with you on his systemic reform. I think the justice in policing act is a great and powerful are still first step toward it. I think criminal culpability is a pretty powerful deterrent to Police Misconduct. The lens and make sure we eradicate racism and education and health care and but it is a pretty powerful determinantterrent if we can adopt that kind of change. Thank you, very much. This has been truly an exceptional discussion. I think this afternoon, and something that is very long thankmr. Chair, very much for holding this and today. This sess objective. And you try not to have a personal reaction. As we watch the video of george floyd had a very visceral, veaction. E floyd was to his mother. I think there are so many of us that our mothers and ien my daughter, i do not have have a daughter, if that had been her that had been abused by a person in authority. Should never happen. It should never happen. So, we are brought here today tounderstand that there has been an justice for a very long time. And this is a very uncomfortable conversation. That some of us are having. It is because we do not like to talk about racism and we do not like to talk about the fact that there might be injustice. In thiful country, which is why we have the together and correct some of these things. So, i am have the opportunity to be part of a group that will be able to make some difference. Senator grassley did mention that iowa is leading the way. Thinal Justice Reform bill. Am very proud of them. It was hour governor, kim reynolds, she sound you signed house file 2647 which is his store Police Reform adding additional accountability that benefits the community and those in policing. The bill included, and this is just a few of those key reforms,i think that is a wonderful step that all of our states need to grab hold of. Literally. Preventing an officer from being hired in iowa if they had previously been fired for again , the hiring of those bad apples. Mandating deescalation training allows the io offense committed by an officer if their actions result in the death of another, which is an important step. Here ise that is pretty darn remarkable about the bill is that it passed unanimously. In both of our bodies. House and the iowa senate. There was not a single point of dissension. Andruly hope that within this body we can all come together. There will be some items that mayb and lets see if we can come together and have a unanimous decision in this body. Bout defunding the police. Nd prov think there are other ways we can go about reforming police. I do believe that we can add Additional Support for police, whether it is the form of Mental Health counselors knows that specialize in deescalation. Would like to ask ol, and i know i am running out of time, but there are ways that we can go beyond the actions on the ground asell. We do still have problems with authority within our prison system as well. All of my questions were answered. So i am working on a bill with senators blumenthal andthat address what we call a Law Enforcement consent loophole. And that is where sex misconduct occurs in our prison systems will gain consent of an inmate to have intercourse or other sex ual activities in those abuses exist in our system. Not only do we need to address those officials out on the ground but walso need to be looking beyond t andions where we can make corrections. I think this is the time to do that. With my colleagues across the aisle on es. I apologized i did not get the would be inappropriate time to address so as well . I believece bro mass incarceration. We build so many prisons. We incarcerate more people than anyone in human history. We send our police force, their mission is to keep those prisons filled with drug users, with sick people and poor people. According to our l those people need treatment not incarceration. Thank you. Rman. Those grouped up referred to some material she wanted to enter into the record. I would like to ask the chair to without objection. I would like to thank dr. Goff for pointing out thatneeds on the the other services it to call the police as often as many innercity families have to. I would like to thank pastor logan of pointing out the importance of Relational Community asked for policing. So, i wanted to ask panelists here physically, this is a Pivotal Moment that calls for more than just nibbling around e problem. Withhe panelists were sitting here with us today, would you agree with that . Yes. All of you do . Ms gupta you oversaw the pattern of practices cases while you were at the doj. D the justice in policing act that we are referring to get it . I have, yes. Would you say that the elements of the provisions of that bill are the kind does it match the size and scale of the problem we are addressing . The leadership really see the accountability framework we put forth reflected in the justice in policing act, like many have said, its a substantial comp moment. Have you read the justice in policing i have. Would you sayt is a good first step in the kind of changes we need to make . Critical things that must pass impact the Police Culture in america. Some claim the conduct is limited to a few bad apples. Ad applerg to basicallyice investigations or enforcement the Justice Department has continued officers for criminal misconduct, but have completely halted themic investigations that really get ataccountability systems and the like. They have issued a tiny one in u6massachusetts, but have halted the use of this tool and of Consent Decree writ large. So your view is that the Police Department is not just a few bad apples, youre not going to investigate that Police Department which is exactly what attorney general barr said regarding the minnlice department. Congress gave the Justice Department the mandate in 1994 to investigate Police Departments where there was substantial evidence practice i think the justice its responsibility to ince has many have thought it was crucial and a very vital tool. When attorney general sessions was before this committee ecree so thats whether he intended to live up to them, and he did not respond. A fact that at the time during l ttion there you know if they are in effect because they aregi federal court in maryland to get out of the baltimore Consent Decree but it had been lodged witanic judge. Is why these consent deeeso of policing they are under the these kind of actions by policeats why they are really import administration h injured into a single Consent Decree crapo i would like to start out with it, has worked with over 250 Police Departmentted to aiding Police Department uinessingt kind of expece nts, id like to ask you a second and think the three or four highest priorities we could focus on her whatould you tell us to focus on at the federal level . Question. Encour is, as youve and unanimous courts from the panel, si accounta table for a doj that is willing to use those tools. Similarly we need the scientific e offi , that their shift l bad, but be and the high standards one must meet, the r are going to become a problem. The second ea. Communities that dont have the money to takselves, they doneso take care of the only thing that gets funding is policgoing to mak safe secon track about [indiscernible] was described and otheruprt ndiscernible] finallyith the leadersh rights and you have developed a how to approach could you with us maybe what you piece at the federal n congress where we shouldn why thece put those forward intt pnesenough. In the proposal, the ban on chokehold, creata national use of force skind of Things Congress iuniquely positioned Police Departments to policingrowa really accounta]ws scientist. Its what im saying right in it kills a conversation when people think they are accused of being racist, it stops an importantonversation that can actually inform policy. K and the whole thing gets derailed. Instead of talking about the ly change those behaviors and reduce the number of4 re iit8; collection plate. Ing about here. Racis the syst. Two more questions, one more minute. I just want to ou, for y they yes, just a agoff. Institutional ra it at every game. And i appreciate the camden,ne of the really icant things, camden, newjerseyndd corruptionth, whole efd leaders mcaul here, but he managed with input to really create a po, but has some of the mosthe made, ny oabout elto cut because saying is actually rightconsequences, there were structuralsm chang you mentioneve qckly that th twoustice f are saying youre a big bil be and change, what are those two things . Fied immunity has by our current st it and its almost impossible for me ngfamilies if it remains in place. Ive beenised by other senior attorneys to get out ofains. Criticallyan federal prosecutions of individuals. I will stop you there, but i just want to say this to you real quickaidu absent right now and some of tof my republican colleagues. If the that when in. I want to talk to each ofand first i want to thank you about i want ask you to get of your thoughts, if yousely low pay at a relatively high ause weforces in america but wit logan, tell me what way wes and hojxuiting but what i will say is then there andg, x probm. So somewhere betwe hiring an officers getting to the street are being trained a deved ther that system. So we need some new cruis but thats not the fixer of the emin the train thank you, sir. Ts a chlenge to do this remotely. Rly for likejob it is to enforce the law thats the difference bween community where now. [inscer im going ing to come i believei will add this. Commun put the Police Officer back into that thats correct. Said trained, most highly recruited officer can save themselves from the bloody stain wiis j hammer, everything looks like a nail. T into communities with guns to solve the problemsto do. I will associate myself with ttion that theres a lot of around people dealing warningecome part of that department. I department has donedi some of these issues because there have been r and this issue around are seen as guardians versus the, it probably seems obviousay. Thank yo ill take the privilege in s, you are up next. The justice in policing i heartened toour co communitiescommunities, s are much betterlic schoolsin healthle h homeowne present we have healthy co aities. ni said it by putting more police on the creating greater. So ithat co working with my colleagues on creating healthier cbe safer. S a very very narrowly issue. I must do to create accountability and rules or breaks the law. I have tried everything cases to running United States, which was the California Department of justic often we use the phrase accountability and consequence, it is directed at the person that was arrested, and it is neve discussion about the system itself. This is that system being held accountable, and are there consequences for bad behaviors i hear our colleagues suggest that when we discuss the facts of systemic racism, we are accusing people within the system, and all people within the system k4if that kills the c people, it is the serioune n are black people, but yet 27 o officers. Count involved black le though y make up less than atiothattes,ore likely to be arrested for marijuana possessiont of use among peoplcountry. N the trap of this in a wayaps that are resting that if we reform the we are calling everyone in the s are doing our injustice if we fall for that. Ms. Guptar crions resulting bad outcom youre going to submit studies for the records if ose who may about studies have been rejected, and my last question will be for you, d the rulesound the standard of proof what would be the outcome in senator h the study in question, the methodology has been in 2020, Richard Rosenfeld di extensivehether policing resulted iconsen or is not the case. There have been a number ofevaluationskennedy school that have evaluated the. A , the metropc. Im a that was done by the former inspector and a body of int they aren, but the fact of the matter i that they hav rtment is able to move out of a consenthink it is really important to actually have the data behind some of the policy reforms that i know folks are for, members of congress are pushing for right now. Ydology . Over and i want to make sure we briefly, the vast of cases of Consent Decrees that are included in the moststudy that senato that things get better after viral distrustseat and try to about consent says, under thhpute and convict these men. With attorney genbarr, the president a number of other people. Each one of those families were individuallyd by the whiteer wat families, a sll families i representln and an even smaller fraction country. They all need fe exceptional cases getting federal review asee the state process in each case. Sen. G the second panel. Much. D, i know you got the shortere to the ise you that we. Roadbu i though was time well spent. I i thou good good comes frosen. Cassidy mr. Trump of personal prilege . Have two louisiana our u. S. Attorney hat. But we still claim her. And of course, our presint is still there. I am going to l a function tonight that i have to go to,le. Ing to stay as long nted to thank all members of the panel, especially louisianis. D listen carefully to pa erin police in houston, texas. For joining us. The fop. Chief national es of the International Association departmentthisable to do justice to your testimony, ms. Cox thank you. Good afterno member, members of the inviting us. I want to r n u. S. Attorney the norther to chief federal Law Enforcementff for moren rioritiena am appearing at a time turmoil in our country. Let me start with the first basic truth. Police brutality in any fo is repugnant and unacceptable. It is impossible not to feel anger and sadness when watchingor floyd. And w like telaw officers who serve honorably. Ak up and speak ou great dishonor to this noble profession. Speaking out, as welas listening to and empathizing with those who suffer the on behalf of 9 conduct and commit to bedetermined, deeply ellectiveng th joid the attorney generalo restore confidence in the criminal Justice System for all. Mr. Floydsnd the resultingbr of our co is particularly disheartening to we have doing in my. Weve been spearhea built on the notion thattween serve can st corneensure equal jus u la launcheour first prograin april of 2018eting a neighb plagued by ime. On initiatives enforcement, was to enforce and g . Plaguing this community. Violent gang members and drugfita felt that we needed to gain and agentsanted to form with th steps to, foster a co empowered to approach those to accomplish several steps. 0 coig Leaders School our vision for the neighborhoodsolicit their advice on how to our fdown cd convenience stores, game nd otherlishments sp le prevention a central unity square. Ntoading library, recreation and child craft area. Since this, the plaza has act of violence. Autiously optimistic that than upon so that valued in the lives of all Police Officers is more than a ill, more than onttes mey showing up at the wro addrese offalo grove, illinois. Good evening, chairman grahaec , Ranking Memberof the committee. Want to thankme here tonight. I am the c o illinois, also the president of the international chff ation of a profession that is committed to life. Painful reminder of the twhile the focus that is policing implemt systemic collusioalthough it is difficult t recognize right now, polici adadncs ents. He past, sign out Community Hard to increase transparency and reviseieof serve, and reduce use of forcees that accountable. Despite these advances, there is0] clearly more work ahead. X concerns and criticism of approaches ing tirelessly. But the answer is geendu and elected offiemand well beyond polifunding for mentallth among homelessnesssubstance÷z abusel and vocational aipolice agencies have been required to fill that void created by these nding cuthe defunding of Mental Health past means the police are oftg ce of Mental Health treatment. Vices education and mentes. Those of Police Budgets ce remained the only entity of goverhat consistentsituat offer serfirst, the developed by a broadand they should develop policies cu deescalatiicipate in t oneit should no lon standlence tora the belief decertifiewi agencies toake nt decertified td. Re of racial,nder a probletic officers. Riocgencies to discipline s at hold in abs t acts do not lose sight of the fact that the overwhelmwonssolmi rve citizens. Orpe ic. K you to not thenlgse senat dgl disti t video. Sen. Gd art. U ient. U my time. En. Kennedy chld be made to qattorney. Ms, senaimarilct d en you, in the discussions i ytime u impact ourhf recruit drs e he themve toet i oy able to prov with thinkwo÷l would echo echoa lirespbjem him s life. U s thans elbility to w eti in a emenforcit a y ng. Orou tward. I woue chions acof right is tinheir offic8oft haut qua been accused d dermmulbe be evaluated. 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