Transcripts For CSPAN House Judiciary Committee Hearing On Police Reform 20240712

Order, we will now proceed with questions. I will begin by recognizing myself or five minutes. On may 25, in the twilight of memorial day, Derek Chauvin of the Minneapolis Police held a need to george mr. Floydonless neck, pleaded for release, repeating the words i cant breathe. Mr. Floyd, i am sure you have seen the video. Can you think of any reason why officer chauvin would need to hold his knee on your brothers for over eight minutes . I dont know why he did it, but personally i think it was personal. They worked at the same place. For him to do Something Like that, it had to be premeditated and he wanted to do it. Intentional. Yes sir. We have learned since then that he has faced 17 misconduct complaints during his career. He was named in the brutality lawsuit, he shot and critically wounded a man after a brief and nonviolent confrontation. How do you feel about the history what do you know what do you feel about the history of misconduct . He should have been off the force. Any officer committing an act like that should not be able to get a job in any county after they get fired. To fire enough evidence them, but not enough to arrest them. Ms gupta, does this make any sense . Should we keep officers with long list of conduct complaints on patrol . We should not. Its why the Leadership Conference has pushed for the establishment of a National Police misconduct registry. Its a registry of federal, state, and local Law Enforcement officials that would created create discipline and termination records. I will tell you that there is significant Law Enforcement support for this registry. Prosecutors around the country have asked for this, but it has been said that this is a real problem for chiefs when they dont have this information and they make higher hiring decisions. And thats why we have this in our policing and justice bill area bill. Thats correct. Chief, you manage a large urban police force. Our misconduct complaints a red flag . Yes, they are. What do you think we can do about that . We make it really clear to thatfficers and employees none of them are cats, you dont get nine lives, and we use progressive discipline. Sometimes labor will argue why are you firing someone with progressive discipline and the answer is simple. If the policy violation supports termination and indefinite suspension, thats what we do for either the first or the third offense. A pattern of misconduct cannot and should not be missed cannot and should not be tolerated. Thats whites important to follow a pattern of complaints to look for any type of patterns theres anyo see if commonality and we can take a deeper look at our employees. You think its a good idea to have a National Registry so one Police Department that knew about the misconduct of an officer before Different Police officer hire him . I can tell you in an individual capacity i do support that concept. As an organization weve been busy operationally in the last two weeks and we will start having our deliberation hopefully on friday. And we will come back with an official position. I can tell you that individual chiefs that i have spoken with support it. Having said that, absent a National Registry, it is incumbent upon hiring agencies to do thorough backgrounds of the internal affairs packages, complaint histories, that everything is available from previous departments. Due diligence is important with or without a registry. But i do support that concept. Thank you, my time has expired. Thank you. Mr. Floyd, i dont know that the cameras picked it up or saw it. But when angela talked about her brother dying, i saw a physical reaction from you, you leaned over, i noticed your body even tremble with empathy and care for angela and her brother who passed away. If you could say anything to people who killed pat, what would it be. Life is precious, everyone should be able to live and walk this earth in the journey they want to. Be no one should have to filled with hatred and so much animosity that they want to kill someone. Dr. King said he wanted everybody around the world to be able to join hands together, and i think right now, if he was here he would understand that the world is united right now. Nd we are all coming together . I have a question i would like to ask everyone, i apologize for the crude nature, if you believe we should refund the police, would you please raise your hand. Wonderful that here we are [indiscernible] i did not see anyone to raise their hand, certainly not the republican witnesses. [indiscernible] to go throughng and see where that sentiment may have been reflected. Here are tweets from our two Congressional Colleagues supporting black visions minnesota. And heres that same group that my Congressional Colleagues are raising money or saying we should and the police. And here is same organization retreating rebels come, abolish the police. Heres the same group saying that instead of we need therapists, doctors, and street medics. In your experience, every time someone called 911, would arabist or a medic sufficient or sometimes to people need cops . I dont know how a medic subject whond arm was assaulting his wife, im not sure how that would be of value. Here is the same group saying we need lasers to disorient surveillance cameras and water balloons will with milk to throw people. This is the organization that my Congressional Colleagues are raising money to support. If we can go to the next one. And that same organization, that multiple members of congress are supporting saying it not enough to only abolish police or prisons, we need to abolish ice, the military, the states, the borders. This is what our colleagues are raising money for. Its not just any member of congress, exactly one of our treasured colleagues on the judiciary committee, the gentlelady from washington raising money for the same organization. Miss underwood jacobs, your brother is somebody who was part of this Law Enforcement community when he gave his life. When you learned that my colleagues in congress are raising money for an organization that promotes defunding the police, destroying our borders, deep ending our military and taking apart the state, how does that make you feel . I actually find that conduct deplorable. We elect officials to represent everyone and the idea to have our communities without protection and safety is wrong. My response to that would be people to get out and vote and get the right person in office to ensure that we feel protected and our children feel protected. I appreciate that greatly. Mr. Floyd, i appreciate your calls not only today but in the direct aftermath of your brothers killing. You showed grace, and care for your fellow americans. I dont know if everybody is religious, but i do believe god is working through you to call us together. And finally i wanted to thank miss asked for the ledges legislationr the she has introduced. While i think we can finetune elements of that we dont under the police and make communities less safe, i dont think theres a legitimate defense of chokeholds or lynching or bad cops that get shuttled around and you can count on republican cooperation as we hone these ideas and hope lay past them and get them to the president s desk area desk. Ms. Lofgren . Chairman. Ou mr. What a transformational week this has been since the murder of mr. Floyd. Im grateful to my constituents and those around the country who have marched peacefully to raise the issue of justice in our country. I am grateful for the Congressional Black Caucus and you mr. Chairman, for your work in putting this bill together. I think it is important to say at the outset what this hearing is about and what its not about. , and how wehis bill can improve the state of policing in the United States. I have heard several people talk about funding for Law Enforcement. We did that when we passed the heroes act. We provided funds for local governments to address issues in their communities, whether its and ther Public Safety, local communities organize their Public Safety response. Not the federal government. But when there are police, we want to make sure that those police operate in a legal way, that does not use violence against people who pose no violent threats. Thats why i would like to ask if these two questions could be addressed. We have incorporated the peace bill, outlining when the use of deadly force is appropriate. That, coupled with the new ,tandard for unwillfulness which would provide accountability, is my question to you. With those measures help prevent violence against people who are not posing a violent threat . I welcome the opportunity to talk about the funding issue. Let me answer the question you have asked. What is the principal problem his we have found in longstanding systemic issue of Police Violence against unarmed africanamericans the inability to hold officers facing misconduct accountable. This is not just about the individual officers, which some refer to as a bad apple. This is about a system of existtability that must if Police Officers are to understand that they cannot engage in certain kinds of conduct. Unfortunately, all of the legal tools that are available to us to hold officers accountable has been weakened or lack the position of strength and language to allow us to use those. So strengthening the language of the federal criminal statute which does not require such a High Standard to prove intent of the officer conduct is critical. Adding recklessness into that provision is vitally important. On thesuggested earlier civil side is vitally important, in removing that to ensure that officers can be held accountable. Ive spoken to many Police Officers about the culture of immunity around brutality. They know, just as anyone who hasnt been that has been in the system knows, whether they are lawyers, doctors, these officers, that accountability is critical to influencing behavior. Unfortunately, our legal system has failed in providing that accountability. So we need to go into the statutes where the language is not strong, or has been interpreted in such a way that it removes the power of the statute and put the tools back into the hands of the department of justice, private attorneys, and civil rights attorneys to hold accountables to hold officers accountable. Thank you. My time is nearly expired. I would just like to say that for many years, africanamericans have been mistreated in many cases and in many communities by Law Enforcement. The multiethnic broad and peaceful protest that has arisen around the country, which has been met with violence has opened the eyes of americans across the United States about the need for reform. I think this is an important step forward. Thank you mr. Chairman, i yield back. The gentlelady yields back. Thank you mr. Chairman. When in the tv on turned the tv on the day after memorial day and saw the brutal murder of george floyd, it made me sick. Depravity that was exhibited there burned in my soul. Floyd, like to say, mr. Not only am i personally sad and express my condolences to you and your family, but the pain of your brother, i think has become the pain of america. After your brother died, there were a lot of people who theirmately exercised constitutional line to peacefully protest. There are some who came in who did not want to peacefully protest and there was a result of riots, arson, burning, people, protesters and Police Became injured. That, in my opinion, ended up attempting to destroy the legacy of your brother. And the people who did decide to raise mayhem are going to have to account for that sooner or later, whether its in a court of law or elsewhere. But i think we have to recognize one thing. And we have heard about this from some of the written the witnesses. There are good cops and bad cops. If the police end up being defunded, which i think would be a horrible idea lets look at what the consequence will be. First, the consequence will be if there are no police there will be vigilantism. And there will probably be more racism if people take the law into their own hands than if they relied on the police to investigate crimes and protect the public. The second thing is that it will hurt the good cops. 99 of the people who serve in Law Enforcement and put their lives on the line every day of the year. Of the year are good cops. They want to enforce the law. They dont want to harm anyone. They know that their job is to protect the public. These are the cops that if money were taken away, they would end up losing their job or not getting pay raises or even getting takeout pay cats. That would be a travesty of justice. Having said that. I want to turn to my democratic colleagues. A lot of the police union hasvity that we have seen been to protect bad cops. Thisolice unions in country, and my democratic colleagues have more friends in those unions that we republicans do . Republicans do. Are going to have to step up to the plate and be cooperative with communities and getting rid of the bad cops. I have heard that George Floyds assailant had 16 allegations of misconduct against him. Why was he still on the force . Invitation for more misconduct. And unfortunately, mr. Floyd, your brother ended up in the am of that. That as the debate goes on, we have speedier resolutions of getting rid of bad cops. Havingothing wrong with a bad cop database. But having a database is not going to get somebody fired who ought to be fired. The sooner we get the bad cops off the force, the sooner there will no longer there will no longer be bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. I look forward to working with all of you. But you guys on the other of the aisle are going to have to be very proactive in telling Police Unions that its in their interest and the interest of the vast majority of their membership to get rid of bad cops. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Ms. Jackson lee . Thank you mr. Chairman for the leadership, and the leadership of this committee. And of course the Congressional Black Caucus,. My very deep sympathy miss jacobs, to you. Nobody should die on the streets of this nation. We thank you for your brothers service. Family andk to my constituents from houston, to let you know that george floyd, your big brother, should not have died on the streets of minneapolis. He did not deserve to die. He was an innocent person. And the eight minutes and 46 seconds that we knelt to reflect was so painfully long that the stain and the impact will be in our souls forever. You have to carry this in your heart. So i think today, the good news lawhat the george floyd trust and integrity bill, the name is already incorporated and the justice and policing act is a legislative reconstruct to do what you have asked us to do. To do what those who are on the streets who are young, black, brown, white, asian, crying out. We need to hear them. I want to say that i have heard them. If you would, there are many things you have said. I believe in harmony. But do you believe that race impacted what happened to your brother . , ibelieve yes maam believe that. George, wherever he goes, he impacts a place. He such a gentle giant. So at that club mr. Shaaban ked at mr. Shaaban chauvin work tim, works there, kill him just because he did not like him. It would have to be something to do with racism. We must get rid of the stain of race. There is an emphasis on discerning what Excessive Force is, chief, if you could emphasize the importance of having standards and accreditation of the huge numbers of Police Departments very quickly for us. Thank you, congresswoman. We have 18,000 Police Departments in this nation, with 18,000 sets of rules, policies, and regulations. 18,000 levels of accountability. Once well you that discussed this as a group that we absolutely have to have national standards. Training regiments. And oversight. To be part ofd that conversation and we look for to the conversation. You have mr. Crump, seen a lot of these cases. Accountable,e taking away this barrier of qualified immunity, but additionally getting back to consent decrees. If you can quickly respond to that, i have a question for mr. Butler. Let me thank you for being there from the litany of names, including eric garner and Trayvon Martin we have been together and there was a long list i am not ignoring. Michael brown, but thank you very much. Butler thank you for your leadership. Breeds impunity. Accountability. It allows for all of those names, to keep adding up, adding up. Need to attack this like an epidemic on black people, because that is what we see happening in our communities. This is about misconduct. We know there are good Police Officers, help us understand. How much of that staying permeates into policing when they go into the Africanamerican Community and deal with africanamerican men . Far too often, officers view themselves as warriors and it is though the communities they serve experience them as occupying forces. There has been so much attention to the pandemic and how we are going to find a treatment. For this epidemic of Police Violence, already have a treatment. President obamas commission on 21st Century Policing recommended commonsense reforms, many of which are contained in the justice act of 2020. We dont have to reinvent anything. We know exactly what to do to make Police Departments more accountable and transparent. The question is, will your colleagues have the will to implement these commonsense measures . Rep. Nadler the gentleladys time is expired. To make i look forward changing the bills name to George Floyds bill. I appreciate all of you being here. I know it is very difficult, especially for those of you who have lost loved ones. You have our deepest sympathy. As to all of those families that have lost loved ones in the aftermath. This is a serious issue. A comfort to as lot of us, especially those of us who are christians, to see the way in which you have carried yourself. You have asked for people to refrain from violence. We dont need it to lead to worse violence, but that was atrocious. It is just hard to watch the video and not feel great sympathy for your brother and you and your family. When we getce together and talk about potential solutions. Hopefully the majority will zero more input than the input we have had on the bill so far. But it also is important to look at different proposals. We have heard some say, on television, lets get rid of or defund the police rid of them. Some are saying, lets get rid of the qualified immunity that police have so they dont get sued by every Single Person they come in contact with. As a judge, i had judicial immunity. The thing is, it is a qualified immunity. It is not there if you are violating the law. That is as it should be. , as we look at solutions and it has been brought up by the Police Unions have defended bad apples. If you talk to police, if you know police, they know who the bad apples are. Most of them dont want to have anything to do with them. They dont want to be on patrol with them, they dont want to work with them. How do we get rid of them . I personally have seen where you have a bad apple at the top. Some whistleblower has retaliation against them and the unions have come in and appropriately defended them, but when it comes to eliminating qualified immunity, i have seen what happened with teachers. Or, bill to eliminate to create qualified immunity for teachers, educational immunity. The Teachers Group had never got on board. I was told it was because they make so much money selling Liability Insurance to their members. And im afraid it might be a cash cow for the unions, but that is not what this needs to be about. Let me just ask you, mr. Floyd, if somebody conspires to lynch somebody else, do you think it is in a 10 year maximum sentence would be appropriate . Mr. Floyd no. No. Rep. Gohmert you shaking your head. Mr. Floyd no. Rep. Gohmert i agree with you. Bobby rush, he is a fine man. A wonderful heart, goodhearted man. He had a bill that would make a life sentence, if you conspired to participate and i said, bobby, it should be a life sentence. Why is it now 10 year max . ,e said, i had a that life maximum sentence, but i was told if it was going to pass the house that had to be brought down to 10 years. I think that is an insult. I know the emmett till bill is part of this overall bill, but i would hope he would come together and say, 10 years for conspiring to lynch is not an adequate eczema punishment. Maybe it needs to be lower in a given case, but lets have life in their is a penalty. I would hope to see that. Chuck colson once said, our hope in america will not arrive on air force one. And pastor scott, i have a minute respect for you. Where is your hope for america . My hope for america is the lord jesus christ. I believe that our country was founded on christian principles. That we have invoked the name of god and i believe the hand of god was upon this nation in its founding. Let me say this. When i saw the video of george floyd. Rep. Nadler the time of the member has inspired expired. Rep. Gohmert i guess we will have to have you do it by video. Mike. Adler your 7120 contains a change of qualified immunity. That is important and good. It is an important parts of several rights legislation. Civil rights legislation. The employers have to be responsible as well. Have the a bill to relationship with the employer and make part of that reform, that superior will apply to 1983 Civil Rights Actions. Esther crump, in your experience what having a respondent superior for with an employer effective in seeing that the conduct that was improper change . Mr. Crump absolutely. I think qualified immunity, as i said earlier, allows police to act with impunity. Seeink there is a reason we lack man, mostly, but also black women being killed by police over and over again and nobody ever being held accountable. Or civil. O criminal this qualified immunity, almost as if we are condoning, almost as if black lives dont matter. That is why, hopefully with this moment, you can do something to change that. Thank you, sir. Bill is at of this Different Forum for judging Police Misconduct. An independent prosecutor to determine if a Law Enforcement officer may have violated the law. Youve been a mayor of a major city. The newed clean up orleans Police Department and that was a tough thing to do. A provision,el which we have got in this bill, to have an independent prosecutor would help restore confidence in the public . Think it is an essential element. The relationship between the normal prosecutor, whether it is a states attorney, a District Attorney at the local level and the Police Department is a hand in glove relationship. Friendships are developed a working relationship is developed and it becomes difficult for local prosecutors to investigate and bring charges against Police Departments. Or Police Officers. In the federal system you will find, sometimes the same thing. Where a United States attorney may work closely with the fbi, they work closely with local Law Enforcement on joint task forces to ferret out crime. Forso think it would allow there to be expertise, teams of investigators that understand these cases. It is an idea whose time has come. The record, unfortunately, has been, whether in ferguson with prosecutor mccullough, whether it is been in the eric garner case with the Staten Island District Attorney and you could cite numerous examples of instances where these local prosecutors cannot ring themselves to bring charges, even when the evidence is clear. I think this is a reform whose time has come. I think it is a reform that should not be difficult for people to agree to. Vast think it would be a improvement over the status quo. Rep. Cohen thank you, sir. You also have Police Unions making endorsements. They endorse the da or dont endorse the da and ma contributions. While there is the hand in glove relationship, and witnesses, and a lot of former officers and the investigators for the da. Mr. Morial you are absolutely right. That working relationship is so substantial. Had cohen another bill i that i worked with lacy clay on is, the requirement of reportage of deadly force incidents. It would help me now i tried to do some research myself. Egregious civil rights cases i know of are ones where white officers killed black citizens unlawfully. , shootings,d whatever. Other than st. Paul, minnesota, i did not see any instances where black officers were alleged to do the exact same type of thing. Is it because we dont have statistics or is that something that says about a systemic racism . Mr. Morial we had instances in new orleans were black officers killed black citizens. I can think of an instance where a black officer killed i cant think of an instance. One instance where a black officer killed a white citizen. Rep. Cohen where those lawful actions . Mr. Morial no, not lawful at all. There were acts of misconduct and brutality. There is a great database the Washington Post has that over the last five years can give you chapter and verse on all killings of citizens by police. Member yieldshe back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Jacobs, itnd ms. Took tremendous courage for both of you to come here today you are still grieving. I hope we can honor their memory by enacting meaningful reforms that prevent future senseless acts of violence and begin a healing process that makes us a stronger, more unified nation. I also want to think the other witnesses for appearing and helping us to determine what changes are to be made. Thatst enact reforms ensure accountability for Police Misconduct, not defund or dismantle Police Departments. I represent the first Congressional District of ohio includes cincinnati. Nearly two decades ago in 2001 i young man named Timothy Thomas was shot you Police Officer in the over the rhine neighborhood. Following protests and civil unrest, including writing ri oting city and federal officials entered into a collaborative agreement with the goal of creating a positive relationship between the cincinnati Police Department and the neighborhoods they serve. Occur the agreement involved everyone putting aside their political agendas and working together. What did the collaborative agreement do . It addressed use of force situations, called for deescalation training for the police, body cameras, and formed a citizen complaint authority, among other things. Once the framework was in place, ike dewine, rob portman, and worked closely together to secure the federal funding needed to implement its provisions. Results have not been perfect, but we have seen a dramatic improvement in cincinnatipolice community relations. Arrests and serious crimes have decreased. Excessive use of force by police has also decreased. As has violence against Police Officers. Most importantly, when problems arise they are handled in a predominantly civil, respectful manner due to years of cooperation and honest communication between the police and our communities. Given the success we have had in cincinnati, perhaps the collaborative agreement could be the starting point for other cities across the country who need to repair relations. The process required to craft such an agreement can lead to better communication, understanding, and if undertaken seriously, greater respect between all parties. Is this the direction you think American Cities ought to move towards if they want to improve policecommunity relations . I think it is a terrific idea. In Martin County where i live has made a concerted effort to do outreach before there was a problem. Those collaborations can and do work. The problem i see during my experience as a Police Officer back in the late 90s is, you can develop all of the relationships you want and they can be productive and friendly. But if they become omnidirectional one way, not omnidirectional. You not going to get anywhere. People are afraid to go to those contacts that they have made an established relationship with because the local drug dealer has them under constant threat and house arrest. Theyre going to get nothing out of that. Let me be clear. It is a terrific idea. There is nothing but positive externalities to be generated. A you cant establish framework of security, it is not going to be a bidirectional relationship. Citizens have to be able to come forward knowing they are not going to be attacked later on or retaliated against. Rep. Chabot thank you very much. Let me conclude with this. We need to find a better way to interact as a society. To work with each other and have the police and communities that they work with Work Together and talk. We need to put aside our differences and listen to each other. And focus on those things that unite us, rather than divide us. Finally, we owe it to our grandchildren,r to the future of this nation, to dedicate ourselves to the principle that all men and all women are created equal. Again, i want to thank miss underwoodjacobs and mr. Floyd for being here today and all of the witnesses. Hopefully we can have both parties working together to accomplish something here and not blame the other side. Lets hope we can do that. Thank you very much. I yelled back. Rep. Nadler the gentleman yelled back. Let me simply note that as members ask questions of remote witnesses, you should mute your mike while the witness answers remotely. Mr. Johnson. Your mic. Holding thisfor hearing and i think the witnesses for being here to help us forge a new path forward. The path to a place where black men and women cannot be murdered with impunity by those sworn to protect them. We grieve know that with you on the loss of your brother and my condolences go to you and your entire family. I offererwoodjacobs, my sincere condolences to you and your family on the loss of your brother. Mayor morreale, we have seen repeated instances where black people often unarmed have been killed by Police Officer a Police Officer and the death results in a use investigation. That investigation is often conducted by the Law Enforcement agency that employs the officer who used the deadly force. That is traditionally the way it works. Rep. Johnson professor butler, we have witnessed these use of force investigations being overseen by the local District Attorney, works handinhand, day after day, year after year the same officer and agency that employs the officer who used deadly force. Isnt that correct . Seenney crump, we have time and again the investigation becomes long and drawn out and at some point, months or even years later, the local prosecutor takes the case before a secret grand jury and out of that grand jury usually comes what is called a no bill, which is a refusal to indict the officer, isnt that correct . Yes there yes or. Yes, sir. Rep. Johnson because the grand jurys are secret the public never learns isnt that correct . Just like the grand jury procedure in Staten Island, we have no idea why that grand jury did not indict that officer for murder. Rep. Johnson it becomes just another justified killing of a black person by police in america. Wouldnt it be fair if the investigation were undertaken by an independent Police Agency . I think important. It would also give Community Members more faith in their legal system if there was an independent investigator. Rep. Johnson wouldnt it be better for the use of force be overseen by an independent prosecutor . Without question. Rep. Johnson professor butler, wouldnt it expire Public Confidence that the law require transparency in the investigation and that the results of the independent investigation be made available to the citizenry within a reasonable period of time, but like in thes later Michael Brown case . Yes, congressman. When an officer dishonors her badge, she should receive the same process as any other criminal. Rep. Johnson attorney i4, do you believe that the justice act should policing withhold funding when the states nothich they operate do require independent Deadly Force Investigations overseen by an independent prosecutor and Police Agency in police use of force deadly use of force investigations . There needs to be an entire over for overhaul for the funding, from the department of justice to local Police Departments. The federal rights act of 1964 [indiscernible] there are independent investigations. Rep. Johnson thank you. Deck, any Police Officers are protected from being questioned and investigations because of coolingoff periods mandated under state law, like in minnesota or under labor contracts negotiated by Police Unions. Prohibitff periods investigators from interviewing officers sometimes as long as 10 days after an incident. They give Police Officers a chance to learn the facts uncovered in the investigation and also to create their storylines, get their storylines straight. Periods can undermine misconduct, isnt that correct . That is correct. Rep. Johnson is a time for federal law to mandate restrictions on coolingoff periods as has been mandated by the department of justice to sink consent decrees in seattle, albuquerque, and portland . The Justice Department specifically put those provisions into consent increase because they were a problem, only in individual investigations, but undermined the communities faith in the fairness of an investigation with setting up two different sets of rules. Rep. Nadler gentlemens time is expired. Coming together today, i am reminded everything this committee has done. What the scripture is telling us is, we have been confronted with the problem. The question is, how do we deal with it . Concerning is, as i see this today from esther floyd, the loss and realness in your body language and your voice. The pain of a nation coming to grips with conflicting issues and values, wanting a safe and Civil Society in which all of us we knowg in a way society doesnt. When you see your loved one murdered. When you find out your loved one murdered, and a time in which we are all struggling. It is not surprising to this committee, that it is unfortunate because in the Previous Congress we had a Police Working group in which we went to houston. Chief acevedo was there. We had a good couple of days of meetings. We went to detroit. We went to atlanta. We were beginning these conversations, we didnt continue. When this new congress set in, we didnt do anything. And now we are here again, faced with a crisis of the moment. Unfortunately, lives by this decree. Put it off until we have to have a hearing, and we mourn the loss of the things most precious to us. My question is, what can we do . Ms. Jacobs, he said communities and jobs. Of a lawe who is a sun enforcement officer, i sympathize. One of the most grievous staves of my fathers memory is when one of his own did something horribly wrong and they took him to prison. I remember himd being down. He said, everybody thinks i did. He said, weve got to get rid of that. But what have we done . There are things we can do to help our immunities. This Community Came together on the first step act. Sentencing reform, working to make a difference in our communities. To take the president who signed that, that is what i committee together can do. Weve not done that here. Cummings onh elijah the fair chance act. Givingr chance act was criminals a fair shot at applying for jobs, because we uncheck to the box. Lets see if they can try a new chance in life. It is about making our communities whole again, yet there are things in this bill we can all agree on. There are things i wish we would take a little more time with. Have had tasks forests taskforces. That looked at how we deal with our prison population. A solicitor from my hometown was a part of that. This is a time to find good answers without unintended consequences. Things about this that concern you . Of theu look at some issues around qualified immunity, some of the micromanagement in this bill, what concerns you . Mr. Bongino as the great tomasello says, its not what you do, its asking, and then what . There are serious issues with qualified immunity. There is no question about that. We are in agreement. If you were to repeal qualified immunity, have you considered the, and then what . Have you considered the fact that Police Officers legal bills will be so oppressive that you wont have Police Officers . Have you considered the fact that some of these officers, out of fear of the Litigious Society we live in, will now be afraid . O go and do their jobs has anybody asked that question or are we just guessing that off to create an interesting soundbite . Qualified immunity has issues. You can work around the edges, but the margins matter. Rep. Collins hope we are bringing up is not an issue we dont need to discuss. When we were discussing with our Police Working group, i appreciate what you said, it has to go both ways. Here, and ied appreciate that concern, because this is heading to where i know it always had. This is the hearing, next week we mark up a bill, and we hope the senate does something, and we go back and forth. My hope is we get this right. We did it before. Lets make it happen again and take the comments on both sides. We can work on this. Ive done it before. This committee has a history of working together. Lets get with the president and senate and make a difference so that lives are valued. Rep. Nadler the time of the gentlemen has expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks for all of our witnesses. Mr. Underwoodjacobs, im sorry for your loss. As to floyd, i am sorry for your loss. We are here today because of the growing list of black americans whose lives were taken from us prematurely at the hands of police. It is why we are here. George floyd is the latest. Bland, taylor, sandra philando castile, Michael Brown, tamir rice, eric garner, and far too many others. We are here today to keep this list from getting one name longer. In this moment, we must dedicate and rededicate ourselves to working toward a more just and inclusive country. And disregard for human life is what people were sickened by when they saw that awful video. Manyact that so representing the true diversity of our country led by young people in the face of a pandemic to speak out to others for others shows just how tired our nation, all of us are. Of seeing black person after black person killed by the police. The thousands of Peaceful Protesters across this nation deserve our attention, deserve action. Is justice in policing act reform that tackles the scourge of police that has plagued communities of color. He tallies that undermine the invaluable contributions of the honorable Law Enforcement officers who are just as heartsick as the rest of us. What we saw in the video of George Floyds order with the complete indifference to pain. Pain,oyd was experiencing and it was indifference to that human suffering, and difference to a death taking place in the plain view, the indifference was cultivated by a culture without consequences. That is why we must provide accountability. We need better Data Collection of least misconduct. We need fair and thorough investigations by civil rights division. It starts with giving them subpoena power to investigate allegations of Police Misconduct. We need to know Police Officers that violate the civil rights of black americans can be held accountable in a court of law. For breonna taylor, who was shot inside her home while the suspects were in Police Custody, we need to and no knock warrants. Or sandra bland, found that three days after being stopped for a minor traffic violation, and for philando castile, who was shot during a traffic stop, we need to require Police Officers to wear body cameras. A child who was shot by police while playing in a park the toy gun, we need to help communities perform Public Safety and change the culture of Law Enforcement. Yourric garner yes, for mother george we need to outlaw joe calls. The justice in policing act does all of this. It will provide accountability. For our witnesses, i would like to focus on what happens when troubled officers moved to another. A system where Police Officers avoid sanctions by moving jobs. We dont accept this for doctors who care for us. We dont accept this for lawyers who defend us. We should not accept this for officers to protect us. Have with respect to tamir rices killing by an who lost his previous and was nearby suburb deemed unfit for duty. What would a newly imagined registry that were wire the Law Enforcement agency to report the officers fitness look like in that scenario . If there was a registry of the kind the justice in policing act would recommend, would have a National Registry of all Law Enforcement agents that would record misconduct complaints, disciplined termination reference, it would be conditioned Law Enforcement agencies would need to put those inputs in an order ticket sums and federal funding. In the case of tamir rice, however tell you and many of the cases i remember civil rights prosecutors upset that they did not have access to that kind of information not only for prosecutions, but also chief acevedo spoke to this earlier, about the importance for chiefs to have that kind of Information Available in making hiring decisions. This is our civil rights moment. I pray our committee and body will rise to meet that moment. Rep. Nadler the time of the gentlemen has expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. George floyds death was senseless and tragic. I grieve for the floyd family. My heart goes out to the family of Patrick Underwood and i think of you for being here. There are a few officers who are attracted to the uniform for the wrong reasons. We want the authority of carrying a badge and gun but cant handle the responsibility. Cops are an extremely small percentage of the Police Officers in this country. There is another side of the story. Terminals prosecuted working closely with Police Officers. I convicted some officers. I was also at the bedside of officers after they had been shot. Ive attended funerals for officers killed. Ive been in the hospital trying to comfort of my employees who learned moments before of the death of her husband, a sheriffs deputy killed in the line of duty. Dont blame the police. It takes a special kind of courage to protect those who cannot protect himself, care for their community so much they are willing to risk their lives to save others. When there is gun violence, conflict, a few brave men and women wearing blue uniforms run toward the danger, while others run away. The police, because they did not create the policies that caused crime. We know the causes of crime. The people watching this hearing no. We commit a grave injustice to those who have died at the hands of police and those who have died at the hands of violent criminals if we dont deal with the root causes of crime. A comprehensive will, as was discussed earlier, must record highs the societal impact of singleparent families. Of substance abuse, of Mental Health issues, and of transnational banks. Gangs. Handcuffing the police has its consequences. After the death of freddie gray, the police were restricted by the department of justice. Alone, the month after six officers were charged for crimes, a jury found they did not commit, baltimore saw 43 homicides. The citys deadliest month in 40 years. A New York Times investigation with baltimore ended 2015 242 homicides. A 62 increase from 2014. Let me repeat that. After Baltimore Police were prevented from doing their jobs, the city suffered a 62 increase in homicides. There are also indirect consequences. In 2017 baltimore had 692 opioid deaths. Chicago recently saw its most violent day in six decades, 18 people were killed on may 31. While police were responding to arrive downtown, residents of chicago saw what happens when police are absent from the neighborhoods. To achieve justice for all, we should support investing in police protection. Agree to empower good Police Officers to continue to protect and serve. Everyone deserves to be safe and secure. In their home, on their way to work, walking to school, or throwing a ball in the park. Dont blame the police for our down of society. They are doing their best. No bongino, your thoughts . Mr. Bongino i read an interesting oped. They compared and contrasted parts of the country. That voted for barack obama was largely innercity. Failed, and what is interesting as it wasnt the voting patterns. It was the deeper patterns you are talking about. Broken families. Drug use. Lacks Law Enforcement. Im notnore that suggesting accountability for police and reforms, i wouldnt be here if i did not believe that but if we are going to ignore the societal problems and all of the degradation of the culture and all of that and scapegoat the police, you will get nothing out of this hearing. He wont see one active change. You may get some sound bites, he may get some votes, but you are not going to see a darn thing. Rep. Buck what im hearing you say is it will be counterproductive . Mr. Bongino it will absolutely be counterproductive. Rep. Nadler the gentlemens time has expired. Thank you mr. Chair. There are couple things i want to say. It was said in the Opening Statement that the mayor of los angeles defunded department. I wanted to make note that he absolutely did not. He did reduce the budget and he shifted the funds to deal with some of the real issues that Police Departments always complain about. How do they address some of societys problems . He shifted the funding for that reason. I also wanted to follow up with mr. Moreal. I wanted to point out that one of the reasons you were talking about lynching is because in many of those cases, lawenforcement officers will involved in the direct lynching, either getting the person, killing the person, etc. Like that was the relationship. I also wanted to talk about qualified immunity and ask esther crump if he would respond to that. I believe one of my colleagues was mentioning, it is qualified, it is not absolute. Why would we need to change that . We crump too often what have seen in courtrooms when police have killed africanamericans that the courts have interpreted this qualified immunity to almost give complete impunity to the Police Officers. That is why nobody is every ever held accountable. When you think of those lists of names we often recite to make sure that people know their life mattered. ,f there is no accountability it will keep happening and we pray that george floyd is the last one. If this great body does not act, it is going to happen again. I predict it is going to happen in the next 30 days. Rep. Bass what about some of the other professions that have this . People have raised concern about Child Welfare workers or other people that have qualified immunity. Mr. Crump it only seems to be the police that have this great authority, this power we have given them. And it goes unchecked. , you areer profession kept in check by the laws that govern this, but the courts have, i believe, unconstitutionally given police this absolute, blanket immunity. Especially when it comes to black and brown people being killed. You can count on one hand the people who go to jail for killing black people, id of all of those thousands of people since Trayvon Martin was killed. I think it was almost 1300. You can literally count, specifically, the number of times police have actually went to jail. And it is horrific. Mr. Marielle, having served as a mayor i heard you say you are one of the few folks around who have been involved in addressing this issue with the Police Department. So, i orchestrated a highly successful reform of a very broken Police Department. A city that had 500 murders a year. Inity that led the nation the number of civil rights complaints. Two police has officers on death row. We had to completely rebuild the department. I said at the time that we were going to tear it down, brick by brick, and we were going to rebuild it brick by brick. In the end we had a nationally credited department. We took the murder rate down by 50 . We brought the civil rights complaints down to an infinitesimal number. We instituted communityoriented leasing policing. The idea that somehow if you hold police accountable, you are tying their hands fighting crime. Rep. Bass may be misscooped her could conclude on that. Gupta could conclude on that. Just a few weeks ago richard did aeld and joel wallman study that they released in may 2020. Fergusonevidence for spiking. Omicides there has been a lot of statements about that that were very concerning in the aftermath of freddie grays death. There had been no data actually collected and put out. This study is a really important offering that belies that notion. Whennotion that somehow you protest Racial Injustice that increases homicide rates in cities. This evidence says thats not true. Rep. Nadler the gentleladys time is expired. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Adequate words i can say to take away the pain of suffering across our country. Now is the time for understanding. Im committed to listening and learning. First, mr. Ford and the entire florida family and loved ones, i am deeply sorry for the loss of your brother, family member, and friend. Sayctions or words i can will ever make you whole again. Amase know how grateful i for your presence here today and i offer you my deepest condolences. Underwoodjacobs, your brother was probably protecting the community he loved. And i am deeply sorry for your loss as well. Accept my both will heartfelt grease grief. To all of the families, like the floyds and the underwoods, who have had to suffer the tragedy and sorrow of losing a loved one due to needless violence, i also need to add my deep condolences. Today is a day to set our politics aside and focus on sound policy for our country. Havel of the witnesses, i reviewed your testimony. I have heard your verbal testimony. And i have listened to you answer questions from my colleagues. I want you to know that i am listening and im learning and i hear you. I stand ready, and im hopeful, i am hopeful we can find Bipartisan Solutions and policies. Missloyd, and underwoodjacobs, i would like to give each of you the remainder of my time to address the committee. Mr. Floyd sitting here, coming howry to tell you all about i want justice for my brother, i just think about that video over and over again. It felt like eight hours and 46 minutes. My brother plead for his life, watching that officer put his knee on his neck. Just, everyday just looking at him. Being anywhere, that is all people talk about. The rest of my life, that is all i ever see. Video. Y looking at the kids have to watch the video. His kids had to watch the video. It just hurt. For a lot of people. Pain. Of my family, they just cry, cry everyday and ask, why . Why . He pleaded for his life. He said he couldnt breathe. Nobody cared. Nobody. People pleaded for him. They still didnt care. Justice has to be served. Those officers, they have to be convicted. Anybody with a heart, they know that is wrong. You dont do that to a human being. You dont even do that to an animal. His life mattered. Lives matter. Black lives matter. , wish i could get him back. Officers, they get to live. Rep. Roby we grieve with you and appreciate your courage to be here with us today. Time is expired, but miss may miss underwoodjacobs address the committee as well . Rep. Nadler by all means. Ms. Underwoodjacobs thank you very much. I have to say that i am heartbroken. I didnt get a chance to say goodbye to my brother either before he was killed. I am also heartbroken for all of the other people that are in this Country Living every single unsafe just to drive to the store. I also have had the talk with my sun. Today at someone opposite ends of the spectrum, but there is so much commonality amongst the bus the both of us. The heartbreak is an explainable because that is hard to articulate when your entire world has been turned upside down. Know, when i think about all of this, is my brother wore a uniform. He wore that uniform proudly. Wondering, where is the officerfor a fallen that also happens to be africanamerican . So, as i am sitting here and listening to all of you and us, i truly hope that you take your soitions, your offices seriously that you want to Work Together and collaborate, because if you cant get it right, there is no hope for the rest of us. So, when you convene and talk through everything that is going noti hope that we are just people on paper, but the fact you can be able to see our faces and feel our pain and feel it enough that you want to make change for all of the citizens of the United States of america. Rep. Roby again, we grieve with you and thank you very much for your courage to be here with us today. I yelled back. Rep. Nadler the gentlelady yields back. Mr. Richman. Richmond very rarely in at a loss of words. Misst to start with you underwoodjacobs. You have my condolences, my sympathy, and my prayers. Unfortunately, this was the hearing you were invited to. You are not invited to the hearing square hearings where we talk about our Law Enforcement officers that put on blue and black everyday. Moreact that we try to get vests for Police Officers. The fact we wanted to fight sovereign citizens that have killed or Police Officers than anybody else, and the other side father. But they invited you, and i want you to know that we have fought for increased Survivor Benefits for the families of officers and we respect those who serve our communities. Then, mr. Floyd, let me just tell you, i met with you in houston, the remarkable thing is you all asked for two things, neither of which was for you. Justice for george. And a just society. That is why we are here today. Unfortunate part of this process is, we speak and leave. Politiciansd it was has messed up the family unit in america. That could somewhat feature. But for him, how do you ignore the white mans knee on the neck of like people for 401 years and act like that has nothing to do with where we are . Part of the reason i am so encouraged today is more people are recognizing that now. And the systematic racism and oppression that has existed that we are now coming together to establish a solution. It was dr. King in his letter from a birmingham jail that he responded to his critics for the first time. Because he said that he would assume they were people of goodwill, with sincere concerns. Over my better judgment i will assume the other side is people of goodwill and sincere concern in some of these arguments, why we cant or shouldnt pass this bill. But the other part i want you to understand is, the outrage that i have. 1988 1991 when the movie boys came out. The last line in the movie said, either they dont know, they dont share, or they dont care what happens in the hood. If you didnt know, now you know. The Peaceful Protesters are showing you what is happening. But eo footage is showing us what is happening. Then you go to the last line and the question is, do we care . I believe that this piece of legislation is a good piece of legislation that was the ball forward. It is easy to sit on the others and that perfection be the enemy of the good. Or just sit back with inertia and never move the ball forward. We have an obligation to the next generation of kids, to the minimum women walking the streets now to make sure we move the ball forward. You know, every once in a while we have tried it the other way. We are asking you to try our way this time. Lets pass in legislation. Lets hold the bad Police Officers accountable. And we always say, and apples. The saying is, enough bad apples spoil the bunch. Lets make sure that we are talking about it. Mr. Mayor, i know i used up all the ofith i was a beneficiary your reforms. You moved funding in ways i yield back. The disinvestment in those types of programs over the past 20 years, and some of it has happened in this congress, the elimination of a Summer Youth Employment program, the elimination of supports for noldren, baltimore city, Extracurricular Activities in schools. Fix policing with this and do other things to address other systemic issues. I moved to create a summer jobs program, because there was no money. For innercity kids that did not cost a dime that gave kids a chance to work at lsu dental school. Those made great differences. Aboutf this conversation quote unquote dont want to open a pandoras box. Defunding police is not just about defunding police, it is about investing in other things. If you are a middleclass parent in america today, your kid wants to go to dance class, you pay. Karate, pay. Little league baseball, pay. Innercity kids, no opportunity of it is not provided by the public dollars. 1960s america, immigrants made up the mast the vast majority of American Cities and you had free recreation programs, free summer camps. Watch, somehow, someway, a lot of that has gone away. It is important to understand that this bill is about reforming policing, which is a pillar. There is a second additional discussion that needs to be had about how we do all the other things. I want to work with you all on that. But dont confuse the two. Respectfully, bad family situations did not kill george floyd. That is an outrage. Tois an absolute outrage think that a bad family i am tired of trying to change the issue when we have police , toality, Police Misconduct this rhetoric about bad family situations. And it needs to stop. I sit, i take it, i listen. But not at this moment. Not at this time lets fix policing in america. Lets focus on that. There is ample time to do other things. As i said earlier, it is a moral moment, a time we are called to act. On the others of this capital, there are two Office Buildings named for United States senators, both of whom have a legacy of what we are talking about today. Russell, a manb who led the filibuster against the antilynching law for decades. Other, average mckinley Everett Mckinley dirksen, a republican from illinois who provided the courage to help Lyndon Johnson as the Civil Rights Act of 19 some of pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I am struck today by a lot of the testimony and that we are hearing a lot of similar themes. It is a moral moment. One of the recurring themes we have heard many times this morning from members and witnesses is about the need to rebuild membership. One of the founders said, there are thousands hacking at the branches of people, no one striking at the root. We dont know each other anymore. That is kind of how society has evolved. We all agree on the objective, i think. But i think we need to drill down a little bit. Public policy is one thing but this is a hard issue, we all agree. Besttermine what the methods. I appreciate what he said this morning, we had a little sidebar over here. I wanted to ask your opinion on that because you mentioned that in your remarks about the need to build relationships. In your experiences and everything you have been doing, what are some ways we can do that with members of our communities and Law Enforcement officials . Thank you. I think we have to Work Together at the crux of the matter, it is a lack of trust, i believe, between communities of color and Law Enforcement, because we have to have transparency, which we have not had in the Police Killings of black people. One of the witnesses have said, you go to a secret grand jury hearing like eric garner, Michael Brown metoo mayor price, they come back after this secret grand jury and say, no indictment, we did not find evidence even though we all saw it with our eyes. So you have to have transparency and accountability. That is how you get to trust. It is about transparency, it is about training, and then termination. We have got to terminate police. We dont do it. We dont even fire them when they kill black people. To care. Ve got as representative richman said, do we care . Our actions do not construe that. We have to first get to the core, transparency, accountability, then maybe we can get to trust. We do see it from the other side. Complex,n industrial the school to prison pipeline. Likeont see convictions eric garner or any of these other cases. Johnson i appreciate those comments. And i think it is relationships even in the communities for you can get to Building Trust with Law Enforcement. It is our neighbors, too. I had this neighbor who had the idea to host ymca facilities in our community as a neutral forum where he would invite one black church and one white church, but everyone in the same facility, let them get to know together get to know each other and have fun together. It is really about being good americans and good neighbors. I hope we can get back to that. If mr. Davis is still with us, i am interested in his experience with doj, Community Policing services. I wonder if he could speak to that issue if he is still with us on the idea of building those relationships and Community Policing as a function of that. I am still here. Thank you for the question. I would say that the office has a great opportunity to do that, to facilitate charged to be able to identify best practices, Community Policing, how to engage in or grant program, incentivize best practices. Our hiring process. Thing, a keyy one to that is that there are over 16,000 individual Police Agencies in the country. Most of them are 25 officers or fewer. Without the help of the office or the federal government, it is hard to diffuse these kinds of trainings, information, best practices. The opportunity to [inaudible] , that shouldgoal be the goal today. Steppeday that we have away from a lot of the programs that we were offering at one point. Rep. Jeffries joe colds and other Police Tactic c hokeholds and other Police Tactics such as a need to the neck are inherently dangerous and suffer an unreasonable risk of Bodily Injury or death. That is why the justice in policing act will make such strangulation tactics unlawful pursuant to our nations civil rights laws. President davis of the national Law Enforcement executives criminalizing chokeholds and other tactics as a matter of law, is that correct . Does the Civil Rights Community support criminalizing chokeholds and other practice as a matter of criminal law . We do. There are departments around the country who have already banned them. This is about making this a national standard. It. Jeffries mr. Butler, is fair to say that the neck should be off stent offlimits during encounters . Use techniques like neck restraints, it prevents blood and oxygen of going to the neck and brain, and causes great risk of death. Rep. Jeffries black lives matter, yet month after month, year after year, decade after decade, the list of tragedies continues to grow. Amadu diallo, dead. Eric garner, dead. Tamir rice, dead. Event smith, evette smith, dead. Stephon clark, dead. Taylor, dead. George floyd, dead. But, at times, police are able to show restraint under difficult circumstances, is that correct . Of course. Jameseffries in 2012, holmes entered a Movie Theater in colorado and open fire on an audience, killing 12 people and injuring 70. Arwas heavily armed with an 15, shotgun, and handgun, yet he was taken into Police Custody outside that very same Movie Theater without incident. James holmes is white, correct . I am not sure of his background. Rep. Jeffries he is white. 2014, dylan roof massacred nine black parishioners in charleston. Mr. Roof was heavily armed with a highpowered glock, 40, 45 caliber pistol, and 88 rounds. The police somehow arrested dylan roof without incident and even treated him to burger king. Bongino,gino mr. Dylan roof is white, is that correct . Mr. Bongino i dont see where you are going with this. Jeffries last year, in el cius, aexas, patrick cru shooting rampage, used an ak47 and was heavily armed. Yet, somehow, he was arrested without incident. Mr. Bond gino, Patrick Crusius was white, is that correct . Mr. Bongino i have no idea. I dont know his parentage. I dont know why youre making a racial rep. Jeffries reclaiming my time. Black lives matter, sir. Mr. Bongino all lives matter, sir. Rep. Jeffries professor butler, you have heavily armed mans murderers in places like aurora, charleston, and el paso. Somehow apprehended by police without incident. That is the point, sir. I arrested those people, you did not. Innocent, unarmed africanamericans are repeatedly killed in Police Encounter after Police Encounter. Say that the difference, which seems explicable, in police behavior, somehow relates at least in part to race . And in police practices, black lives do not have the same value that white lives have. Rep. Jeffries always simply one is for every Single Community regardless of race to be able to breathe the free air of liberty and justice for all. That is what the justice and policing act is all about. You can watch this entire hearing on cspan. Org. Speechesd house floor are also there. Congressional black caucus chair and california representative karen bass discusses legislation to address police balance violence and racial profiling in the wake of George Floyds death. Monday, 2 30 p. M. Eastern. Onjerome powell will testify Monetary Policy and the economy before the senate banking, housing and urban affairs committee. This coverage begins tuesday at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan. In dallas, President Trump spoke with Law Enforcement and Community Leaders about the economy, health care and racial inequality. Attorney general william barr, housing secretary ben carson, and Surgeon General drone jerome adams were also part of the discussion. This is an hour and a half. Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States, donald j. Trump