Rep. Clarke well, we decided to establish a bipartisan smart cities caucus. Originally, darrell issa was my cochair. Its now a congresswoman from indiana. Peter susan brooks. Rep. Clarke susan brooks, exactly. And we knew that already technology is a major part of our lives. Its a utility that we can use to make sure we are economically feasible going into the future, that we are efficient in our use of energy, and it enables our society, i think, to be far more productive than our 20th century industrial age. So, were looking at the fact that so much of what already exists in society is connected. And what our smart cities caucus does is it looks at four different areas of how were connected. One is connectivity, the other principle being sustainability, the other being mobility, and then the workforce. And how all of those components Work Together to make sure that in the 21st century, our Civil Society is given the opportunity to really reach its full potential utilizing the technological advances that weve had in this age. Peter you refer to it as a utility. Do you see it as a utility like plumbing and electricity and streets and things like that . Rep. Clarke well, its something we use, but it is more of an infrastructure. I think before i think we look at communities that are already wired, broadband has been deployed, ways in which we can maximize on that infrastructure to advance health, build a better quality of life for our citizenry. When we talk about the smart cities caucus, i always say slash, for our communities. This can be applied in urban and rural areas, given we have the appropriate infrastructure built out. Peter do you see congress having a role when it comes to funding smart cities . Rep. Clarke well, i think we do. I think we can incentivize our partnerships with the private sector, many of which already have a lot of that infrastructure built out in different parts of the country. But theres gaps. In order for us to be fully integrated and fully utilizing and maximizing technology in all of its permutations, its important that we partner and incentivize private sector engagement. Peter before we introduce our guest reporter, one final question on this. What about your district in brooklyn . Do you consider it a smart city . Rep. Clarke absolutely. We are at the very beginning of building out a smart city. We were fortunate, very early on, to convert our old telephone booth infrastructure into wifi kiosks, and they are strategically located across the city of new york. That, in and of itself, provides a means of communicating that sets out sort of a predicate for what can be done with sensor technology, how we can regulate our lighting systems. Theres so much that can be done just from that platform alone. Were looking at how we can integrate into the use of that Energy Source that will be sustainable. So, there have been some entrepreneurs who have talked about how we can connect solar to the use of those kiosks, as well. So, it really has a footprint in the city of new york that gives us, i believe, a great edge in terms of fully integrating all of our needs into a smart city. Peter joining us here at the table is joseph marks, cybersecurity reporter for the washington post. Joseph thank you, congresswoman. So, are we in a smart cities competition with china, and how are we doing . Rep. Clarke i dont know. I think were in a competition with ourselves. I think china has done far more investments. Its a lot easier when you have one guy making all the decisions. Here, we have 50 states. We still have a lot of work to be done in terms of national infrastructure. To a certain extent, i believe we are behind in terms of the build out. Do we have the knowhow and the ability . Yes, we do. Do we have the technology and the ability to roll it out . Yes, we do. What we have to get is the will to do so. Joseph and there have been a lot of stories recently about cities not being able to protect the data that they already have. We had some attacks in baltimore and atlanta and other places. Should we be concerned about cities gathering more data, some of it about citizens . Rep. Clarke well, we have to build the capacity, because any vulnerability link in the United States is an attack on all of us. Notwithstanding the fact that there are certain parts of the country that have far more of a robust cybersecurity protocols, any weak link creates a portal through which anyone can invade, whether its the pentagon or its your local municipality. Joseph should congress be doing something to ensure there are better cybersecurity standards as these things are built out . Rep. Clarke absolutely. We have talked about cyber hygiene and the fact that we shouldnt be retrofitting, but we should have those securities baked into the technology we are using. And so we have to continue to push for that. We have to continue to be vigilant around that, because we sayecause, you know, youll this is what we want to accomplish and then somebody is looking for a shortcut. Its that shortcut that creates the vulnerabilities that makes us all vulnerable in the end. Peter congresswoman, just to follow up on what joe asked a minute ago on this information and its potential for getting loose. Should cities have that kind of information about their citizens . Rep. Clarke well, theyre going to have to. Thats the only way to really address local concerns. We should be mature enough, at this stage of our development in the technology space, to protect peoples information, to have the proper protocols in place to make sure we are monitoring and making sure there are no nefarious uses of personal data is happening in our city, in our state, in our nation. We are not there yet. Were going to need the assistance of a cybersecurity workforce, and that is again part of the smart cities goal, is to establish a workforce that is committed, that is focused, that is welltrained, and constantly learning what it is to protect personal data, infrastructure, everything thats needed to make sure that as we build this 21st century infrastructure, we have the workforce commensurate with that. Joseph do you think that congress is commensurate with it . There have been some hearings of Mark Zuckerberg and others in the past where people have questioned whether congress has the technology and cybersecurity savvy to legislate in this area. Now were really inviting a lot of companies who will be in charge of smart cities to collect lots more data about citizens. Can we ensure that is being done responsibly . Rep. Clarke i think we have an obligation to do so. Were not a monolith in the legislature at all. You have a large bandwidth, if you will, from younger folks who have lived their lives through every usage of technology to some of the more seasoned members who are still on flip phones. So were not going to rely on the flip phone crowd to get set those protocols, but we can, and we do have the capability through other members who have really studied this, many who are very fluent in privacy issues, in cybersecurity issues. We have a number of members who were in the cia and the fbi. We have access to the information we need and to the technicians that can help us to craft what is important. And we have to create the type of protocols that grow with the rapid growth in technology protocols. And so, i think were capable of doing it. We just have to have the will and the bipartisanship behind it. Joseph smart cities, as theyve been implemented in china, has often a hazy line between the use of data for Public Safety and first surveillance, especially with facial recognition and policing, you have expressed a lot of concern about the way facial recognition is used in the United States, in Public Housing and at the border. How do you ensure you get the good stuff from these connections and not the bad stuff . Rep. Clarke again, its all about how you regulate things, how you legislate things, and how you create policies that are keeping in the values of your society. So, Law Enforcement has a unique role in terms of the utilization of technology. It can be used for good, it can be used for bad. The hope is that, as we are becoming more enamored with the use of technology, that those who would use it for bad will be out as outliers. But the practice is this is how we are going to use this technology, and under these circumstances. A child is kidnapped. Now, you can get footage that shoots from one location to the next location to the next location far quicker than the Human Capacity to send that information along. On the other hand, you dont want to have a situation where you know, youre babysitting a child, and the information that couldve come to a Police Officer doesnt. They dont recognize you and you unfortunately end up with an incident that takes someones life, right . So its all about how we use technology in a smart way. And how we set the protocols, how we train the workforce to use it. Joseph is there a concern, though, that technology is developing too fast for the lawmakers and the regulators to keep up with it . Rep. Clarke i think, again, its clear who the regulators are, who the legislators are. There are so many folks who have already delved into this space and are very apprised of what how the technology is evolving, how its being used, and how to put guardrails around it. We have to access those folks. We need to move them to the fore so that expertise is something that is treasured and that we maximize on. Peter representative clarke, do you hear from people or do you have a fear of the socalled big brother syndrome . Rep. Clarke i dont. I dont have a fear of it. I think that its important, however, that we set up guardrails, that we recognize privacy as a very important part of this conversation around the use of technology, and that we acknowledge it in the same way that folks in the eu have. Theyve set up great protocols around managing data. Weve yet to make that step here in the United States. And as a matter of fact, i consider our nation to be the weakest link because we havent. And in both those conversations were already having on the hill because its very important we dont make offense the driver, the deployment of technology, but the wellbeing of society is at the core of what were trying to accomplish. Peter impeachment inquiry, Election Year coming. Is there the political will to pass cybersecurity or privacy legislation . Rep. Clarke i hope there is. You know, we have to do our jobs. The house of representatives has passed over 252 pieces of legislation already in this congress, and theyve gone over to the senate and theyre languishing there. I think we can do all of this at one time. The legislature is built that way. We have committee assignments, we have members working on various pieces of legislation. We can maximize our time, but we need willing partners. And the legislative body only works when both chambers are working. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now. Joseph one of the biggest pieces of legislation members of congress are trying to get through is our mandates on Election Security. Thats been largely stuck in the senate. Leader mcconnell has said less than 250 million toward Election Security, but with no mandates behind it. Is that sufficient to protect 2020 . Rep. Clarke no, its not sufficient, not from the information weve gathered thus far about the vulnerabilities. You have 50 odd different election systems because its governed at the state level. And so we have to do far more than say were going to allocate funding without restriction, without targeting its use for securing our election systems at the state level. Each state,ook at what its been able to accomplish a standard. We cant even agree at this stage that everyone should have a paper trail. When youre at that stage where you cant even agree that we should have a written record or a printed record of people voting, weve got a long way to go. Joseph one of the things you focused on in terms of Election Security is deepfakes. How concerned are you that this could be an issue in the 2020 election, these videos that look incredibly lifelike but are doctored . Rep. Clarke yeah, you know i think its a threat to Society Overall because deepfakes are deeply fake. Right . To the naked eye, you cant really tell the difference. So we know that in the last election, there was a lot of meddling in social media. Imagine if the words that were put out to dissuade people from voting came with a video depiction of it, and it shows someone that is highly revered making a false statement or taking an action that they didnt actually take. I mean, it has implications beyond just, you know, beyond just a fictional depiction of something going on. It can psychologically create a real problem for americans. And so its important theres a disclaimer that indicates to individuals that this has been tampered with or this has been altered, this has been modified, this is for your entertainment. There should be a watermark so that people can distinguish between what is real and what is not. Deepfakes can also be weaponized. Right . The Biggest Issue has been in sort of the revenge porn space. Right . And this is happening sort of creating, incally peoples lives, havoc. So, i think its important that we pass legislation, and that is getting ahead of things because right now, its not widely distributed in the context of socially acceptable social media. Its basically relegated to the margins right now and the dark web. But at some point, it can become very prevalent, and its important that the American People know that these are deceptive uses of video and technology. Peter is your deepfakes accountability act got by bipartisan support . Rep. Clarke it does. It does. Im hoping we can move it because when were talking about elections and trying to create an election that has integrity, once you move them to these video depictions that are deceptive, were now in a totally different space and trying to get back to a place where we understand truth as truth becomes even more of a challenge for us. Peter congresswoman clarke, youre also vice chair of the Commerce Committee. What is your take on Silicon Valley and the social Media Companies . Rep. Clarke i dont want to grossly generalize, but what i would say is we have to build a much more healthier relationship with the American People. I think that many have been driven by being preeminent in their space, and with that preeminence comes a certain level of arrogance and abuse. And that is not in the best interest of the American People. I find that many of these firms are not reflective of the diversity of the people of that country. Of our country. And when youre talking about developing algorithms and a whole host of other things, if youre only coming from one perspective, youre baking into the system discrimination that is going to be very hard to unpack once it is baked into the system. Joseph you talked about finding the right advisors to help move toward a more connected, bigger data future. Are there particular people or groups in or around the Tech Community who you look to to advise you on that . Rep. Clarke well, you know, everything from the Energy Sector to the tech sector to the banking sector, these are industries that have had, out of necessity to protect their infrastructure, whether its banking or its our oil and gas or our electricity grid. There, well find a lot of folks. Also in the Tech Industry and stuff. Theyre building it. As they build it, we should be having some level of discourse so that we understand with the obligations are of what is being built and how its being deployed and what it means for Civil Society. In academia, there are a lot of young folks who are looking at the defense industry, looking at helping our country. These are folks who have the wherewithal to advise, to provide us with the level of intricacy that we need to not only to look at what we have right now, but where things are going in the future. Joseph one thing that is often paired with the move to smart cities are 5g wireless networks. Theyre supposed to be magnitudes faster than the current wireless infrastructure. Are you concerned about the security of 5g networks, and is the Trump Administration doing enough to keep huawei and other Chinese Companies out of those networks . Rep. Clarke well, no, were not doing enough to keep huawei and other nefarious actors out of our networks. But i believe that we have what it takes to do so. And its interesting because i ve even heard some of the folks in the utility space, the electric sector, talking about 10g. So were at 5g now, but there are already discussions about 10g. I have no idea. Maybe you blink and everything disappears. I just dont know where were going with that one. But its important if were going to really build out a smart city that 5g is a utility we need to be able to access and maximize on. The problem is we havent fully deployed broadband yet. So, the Digital Divide is always a concern and an issue, whether its Rural Communities or what we call digital deserts in urban communities. You know, the one thing we dont want to do is to see inequality exacerbated because we are unable to crack the code around how we make 5g and broadband ubiquitous in the United States. And thats one of the things were looking at the smart cities, smart communities caucus. Peter congresswoman, we ask this of every member of congress who comes on this program. Would you own a huawei phone yourself . Rep. Clarke no, i wouldnt. Im concerned. Im just concerned about our lack of negotiation, our lack of intelligence, and the fact that we know that competition breeds contempt, right . With these nations who are clearly looking to eat our lunch, im concerned. And there has been some reporting of real concern with huawei and its use of technology. But theyre not the only ones. I dont want to stigmatize huawei. There are a lot of people who like their devices. I personally you know, listen, people are talking about alexa, right, and amazon, and the fact that a lot of the technology is, when you think its sleeping its actually recording. Theres a lot we have to unpack with personal technology within our homes, within our communities, throughout our Civil Society, and how we secure it in a way in which our privacy and personal information comes first. Joseph do you think congress is prepared to do all this, given all of the difficulties . Rep. Clarke listen, i think there are enough folks with the wherewithal to do it. Now, whether were at that point right now, i dont believe so. I think theres a lot more we can learn, must learn, and we must collaborate with in order to really set the right protocols in place. And the last thing we want to do is stifle innovation. The last thing we want to do is do is inadvertently put people at risk. So its going to be important that we engage, whether its m. I. T. We have enough around us. Even our national labs. We have the capacity to do it. We just need the will to do it. Peter so when youre home in brooklyn, do you hear from constituents about huawei, 5g, where to place the towers, Net Neutrality . Do you hear about these things . Rep. Clarke i hear about Net Neutrality a lot in my constituency. The facial Recognition Technology roll out and the use in sort of the private sphere has become a major issue in my district. People are aware of the fact that we cant conduct business, we cant conduct our lives without interfacing with technology in all of its manifestations. What theyre concerned about is how thats managed in a way in which it adheres to american values. And that is the challenge that we all face, because we keep sort of moving the goalpost on whats an american value. And i think that we need to, you know, we need to make it clear, not only to the American People, but to the companies that are developing technology, what those values are and what our expectations are in terms of how we address our concerns. Through the use of technology. Recently, there was a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg around ads. And there was some questioning about whether these ads that he accepted on his platform were truthful enough. So, you know, we have to be definitive about the fact that we want the truth in america, right . And if thats the case, are we willing to sacrifice the purchase of an ad in order to make sure that truth prevails . Joseph back in 2016, you were one of the authors of a bipartisan report from the judiciary energy and Commerce Committees about encryption, which recommended that the government should not, in any way, impose any requirements on encryption or weaken encryption. Rep. Clarke well, what they wanted to do was to build a back door so that you could actually get information through sort of a portal. The concern was, you open up that portal, anyone can get in there. And were not at the stage where our fluency in encryption or technology, for that matter, would protect us, should that be the case. Joseph attorney general william barr has renewed that debate and said that it could lead to much more Child Sexual Exploitation when facebook implements end to end encryption. Have you rethought your position at all and do you think theres any chance congress would rethink it . Rep. Clarke i think so. Again, we have to think about the dangers and the benefits versus the burdens on society. These uses of technology become more and more prevalent in society. What were going to have to establish is protocols around it. Now, you know, are the protocols we use in everyday Civil Society the same that should be used for the pentagon . You know, these are the types of questions we have to answer. Peter representative yvette clarke, democrat of new york, vice chair of the energy and Commerce Committee and also cochair of the smart cities caucus. Joe marx of the washington post, thank you both for being on the communicators. This communicators and all other episodes of this program are available as podcasts. Unfilteredas coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or listen on our free radio app, and be a part of the National Conversation through cspans daily washington journal program, or through our social media feet. Cspan feed. Cspan,. By our Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to today by your Public Television provider. Sunday night on q a, Peggy Wallace kennedy, daughter of alabama governor and president ial candidate George Wallace, talked about her fathers controversial career and what inspired her to write her recent book, the broken road. Back in 1986, we took our young son, burns, who was nine at the time, to the Martin Luther King Historical site in atlanta. And we went to his church and to his grave, and we went over to the museum, and it was being newly constructed at this time. And we were going to the exhibit, alabama exhibit. And it shows the Edmund Pettus bridge, the bomb at the baptist church, fire hoses and dogs, birmingham, and George Wallace standing in school has door. Schoolhouse door. And burns looked up at me and he said, he was so sad. Why did pa do those things to other people . And it broke my heart. A never told me he did what he did those things to other people. But i know he was wrong. So maybe it will just have to be up to you and me to make things right. Lodge sunday night at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspans given day. Watch sunday night at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan skew monday queuing day. Q and a. Earlier today at the white house, president drumheller white house with reporters on the u. S. Economy, ongoing protests around america and the coronavirus. This is almost an hour. Ladies and gentlemen, the president of United States accompanied by the Vice President of the United States. V. P. Pence
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