Transcripts For CSPAN Washington Journal Danielle Brian 20240713

Whats my name, whats my oooo n President Trump is in michigan touring a forward plan that will produce been the leaders and is excited to make remarks. This it was scheduled for 3 20 eastern time, but things appear to be running behind schedule. We will take you there lie with them tomorrow to begin here on cspan. We will take you there when the remarks begin, here on cspan. Danielle brian joining us, the executive director on government oversight talking about the president decision to find the specter general. Lets begin with the role of the Inspector General in the federal government. Why do we have them and when did they first began . Daniel after watergate and the Church Committee hearings, which your viewers were really informed on government history will remember the investigations into overreach and wrongdoing in the Intelligence Community, especially the fbi. The Congress Passed a law that was creating these inspectors general in the agencies and have 78 Inspector Generals across the federal government. They are apart of the executive branch, but they are unique. That is reporting to the head of the agency. They also report to congress. Sort of training do they need to have . How do you become an Inspector General . Guest that is a good question, and it is clear there is confusion about that. In 2008 reform act for the Inspector General laws, they formalized a system where the Inspector General would have two go through a vetting process through the committee that will look at potential igs making sure they had the proper evidence of either a Law Enforcement background, or a legal background, or in some cases, an auditing background, but also some evidence that they arent politically motivated by demonstrate their independent sparring host where do they come from . Rep. Raskin guest an ig will start at a small agency parties there are agency. There are small agency that have an idea and you get skills in managing an ig and to run an office in some cases. Then you work your way up to some of these giant agencies with massive igs staff. Host what kind of power do you have as an ig . Guest in some cases, not much. Makeyou can do is only recommendations as an id and other Law Enforcement, and then congress has to take on those recommendations to fulfill and what corrections are recommended by those igs. At theo you serve pleasure of the president of the United States . Is it the president s decision about who is the president s decision est yes. Is the i. G. Gu there is a role to be played by informing the congress and a these to behy needs to bei. G. Removed. I would never suggest that i. G. s the to be unaccountable. They have this dual headed role congress is required of trying to justify to them why an i. G. Should be removed. I. G. s are in unusual role because their job if they do it well is to bring evidence of wrongdoing and bad news. If youre doing your job well you will not make friends. Ost how do they do their job . All of them have Law Enforcement powers to look into subpoena documents. They have such a range of responsibility. There is a cliche about it then if you see one, youve only seen one. Part of theg inspectors general job is to deal with fathers who have delinquent Child Support payments. Pentagon,ave it the dealing with massive defense contracts. It is a whole range of types of misconduct they have to look into your who appoints the i. G. s and what is the difference between permanent and acting . President ially appointed and the other half are appointed by the heads of commissions or boards. There are number of federal boards that have multimembers. And those report to those groups. About 37 of them are appointed by the president. Acting takes over where there is a vacancy. If there is not a Senate Confirmed ig, there is an acting that takes place. Host if some of them serve at the pleasure of the president , why cant he or she fire that ig . Guest i dont think anyone is suggesting they cant, i think there is a clear requirement in the law that congress be notified so that there be an investigation into whether there is selfinterest. In the cases we have seen it is fairly clear that there are real concerns about why these people have been removed, and Congress Needs to do a lot more to elevate the concerns we have about why they are being removed. Host i want to talk more about these cases. Lets invite our viewers to call in. Democrats, 202 7488000. Republicans, 202 7488001. Independent, 202 7488002. Start dialing in. Lets talk about the state department Inspector General. His firing. Guest not only was he fired in a similar fashion to the other Inspector General who was fired where the president gives notice to congress only that he has lost confidence, which is not an explanation, and then immediately has them leave. Law requires a 30 day notice and that was an in violation. Then the number two in charge to become the acting, he is put in place another trump appointee. To add insult to injury, that person is going to retain their job as a political appointee within state department. You have this enormous conflict. Inspectors general are supposed to be independent of the agency so they can be receiving whistleblower complaints and looking into misconduct while being able to protect them. Now you have a political appointee who is still part of the state Department Administration acting as an independent Inspector General which is a flagrant conflict of interest. Host lets take michael atkinson. Guest that was the first warning shot that there was a war on whistleblowers. That was the Intelligence Community Inspector General who received allegations from the ukraine whistleblower and handled that properly. While there were efforts by the just didnt by the Justice Department in informing congress, he went through his chain of command. They reported it to the congress. What appears very clear, retaliation by the president. He has removed that ign has and has still not given any explanation for it. Host you right in the Washington Post it is past time for congress to give inspectors general additional protection. Inspectors general need to be shielded against the president s ability to fire them at will. The administration should be required to demonstrate the office was unwilling to conduct oversight. This would allow inspectors general to conduct dogged reviews without fear of retaliation. Why dont they have that protection now . Guest in 2008, the house passed those protections. You can only be removed for certain causes and we name a couple and that oped. The point is lost confidence is not a reason. Giving an actual release Reason Congress can evaluate is an essential step. Host before we get to calls, how are you funded . Guest we have a contract on government oversight. Our mission is to investigate corruption, wrongdoing and abuse in the government and work to fix the problems we uncover. Our funding comes from individuals as well as foundations. We do not take any money from anyone who has a financial interest in the investigations we conduct. Host sam in brooklyn. Caller how are you doing . Host good morning. Caller i have a few comments. Number one, i think people are starting to confuse opinion from fact. When people call in and they they give opinions. They give dates and numbers and keep going on. When you try to give numbers or dates you have to go on fact. You cant give an opinion and then tell a story. Basically you set a lie. A lot of republicans [indiscernible] when they call in and say obama did this and that if you are so great like you claim trump is you dont have to brag. Host fact and opinion. Guest i think the caller is making an important point that we have to have conversations based on fact, what the law says, and what the evidence is. We have two inspectors general removed by the president without notification or explanation. We have two acting inspectors general removed. All four cases, there are serious concerns about them being removed because of political retaliation. Host roland in upper marbella, maryland. Upper marlborough, maryland. Republican. Are you there . Caller i am here. [indiscernible] why did this ig get fired . Theres no checks and balances. Guest the role of an Inspector Generals to be one of the most important checks and balances system in our government. Youre right that in this case there were two investigations the state department and the state department was conducting. One was if secretary pompeo was misusing federal funds. More substantively, an investigation was into whether the state department was improperly advancing an arms sale to saudi arabia by improperly declaring a national emergency. Those are breadandbutter issues for an Inspector General to be conducting. That is why we have grave concern about moving him and putting in his place a political appointee. Host here is what mike pompeo said. [video clip] i have seen the story where someone was walking my dog to sell arms to my drycleaner. It is crazy stuff. I didnt have access to that information so i could not have possibly retaliated. I was asked questions, i responded with respect to a particular investigation. That was sometime earlier this year. I responded. I do not know the scope, the nature of that investigation other than what i would have seen from the questions i was presented. I do not know if that investigation is continuing, has been closed. It has it is not possible to have been retaliation. Heres another thing to think about, this is all coming through the office of senator menendez. I dont get my ethics guidance from a man who was criminally prosecuted. 15155 new jersey district federal court. His Senate Colleague said basically he was taking bribes. Is that someone i look to for ethics guidance . I will do the right thing to make sure the state department is served by every employee. I will make sure the state department continues to deliver. Host lets dig into a little bit of what he said about how this investigation was working. He says he does not know the nature of that investigation because he was that she he responded to a series of written questions. Explain that more. Guest i cant because it makes no sense. You cant say i knew nothing but i answered questions. It is not a credible response. He has nothing to be concerned about, the last thing he should have done was remove the person. Host tim in minnesota. Caller i thought roland was spot on. The way i understand the ig is there is supposed to be a type of internal watchdog. To me, transparency is key to democracy. I do not think a president has any business appointing them. I think the congressional vetting process is more of a formality sometimes, the president eventually gets his way. This guy has fired four of them. I do not know if he said it actually but obviously he wants people more in line with him. I think that is contrary to democracy. My last comment is i abhor the comment serves at the pleasure of the president. It sounds kingly to me. Guest i take a little exception to the idea that the Senate Confirmation process well, it shouldnt be a rubberstamp. There have been examples of really good congressional oversight over time. It is an important part of that progress. Having an oig president ially appointed is it their status. It elevates your stature so that people are taking your role more seriously. I think it has pluses and minuses. As long as the system is functioning properly and as long as congress is doing its job in upholding the law and requiring the president to explain clearly, giving notice why i still think ultimately we have got to change the law and enhance protection so that we dont have these kinds of what appear to be very clearly motivated removals and there is nothing being done about it. Host nelson in hollywood, florida. Republican. Caller i want to say that i am concerned about the fact that there seems to be inspectors and investigators in every crack of government. We have a president who was duly elected. If it is at his pleasure to let people go, then itd then it is at his pleasure. If you dont like that, vote against him. There seems to be a lot of investigations against him and not very many against a lot of corrupt democrats. Particularly in the house of representatives. Your concern about due process, i am concerned about over process and a constant knocking against the presidency by people who are against this particular administration. That would include Inspector Generals. I respect early i respectfully disagree, but these Inspector Generals i disagree that these Inspector Generals are somehow neutral when it comes to policy. It seems to me there is too many of them. Letting some of them go as part of the process of draining the swamp. Host ok, nelson. Guest i would say our system is not a monarchy. We do not believe in absolute power. I believe strongly that absolute power corrupts absolutely. You need to have checks and balances to make sure we do not have corruption. The only way to do that is with these kinds of systems that are protected so that when one finds misconduct they can move forward and it can be as i mentioned, an Inspector General does not have that much power. All they can do is bring forth evidence and make recommendations. They need to be protected so that the congress and the public can find the facts. Host sterling, virginia. Caller i disagree with that gentleman who just spoke. I was working at the agency, i was on the task force appointed by the Inspector General with regards to iran contra. It was done in a professional way and was done with regard to what the judge was doing on the outside on iran contra. I think it is done professionally. People who have living outside of washington and never work for government they need to step , back and listen to some of the professionals who are devoted to keeping our government safe. The only reason trump is removing this people these people is he does not want to the truth to come out. The Inspector Generals that perform a very good duty it keeps the government in check. We are a divided government. A lot of people do not seem to realize that. We are three branches of government and each one should be able to keep the other one in check. Host i would like it is important to remember that inspectors general are also human beings that need to be held accountable. It is important not to say they should never be removed but there should be clear explanation and standards and evidence and a process to ensure they are not being removed for the wrong reasons. That is what is so important now. It is important to make sure there are standards of conduct, but there has been no effort or any evidence there was wrongdoing in the case of either of the two igs who were fired. Host nancy pelosi addressed the firing of the state department inspectors general. [video clip] this is unfolding, one thing and another, all that stuff. I am very concerned about public policy. Congress passed a law about sales to saudi arabia. In that department, they declared a fake emergency in order to initiate the sales. That may have been part of the investigation. That is what im concerned about. Not only did they do something wrong in declaring a fake emergency, they undermined the will of congress. Lets see how this unfolds, just like in the last 36 hours we are seeing. What it is we know so far is scandalous. Guest i think this is exactly more than 24 hours and we dont have any evidence to the contrary. It is important that the house and senate have begun investigations there are some republicans starting to raise concerns. This has historically been a bipartisan issue. I worry when it becomes politicized and tainted bipartisanship. This is another process of checks and balances. This is not about winning or losing. It is important for republicans to remember that they want to have confidence that inspectors general have protections to do their jobs as well. It is just as important to remove partisan politics from this conversation. Host he said nothing is being done about the firings, what do you mean . Guest at the time the early firing of michael atkinson, senator grassley had a bipartisan letter demanding from the president an explanation. Senators langford and portman also sent a letter asking the same. The president has not responded. It has been more than 30 days and they are ignoring them. That is a sign where congress has got to step up and say we gave you your chance, you are not doing what the laws demanding of you. Now we need to pass a law that ensures when you want to fire one that we have recourse. Host what would that recourse be . Guest giving that Inspector General some rights in the court. For the caller who was concerned this was just about trump and obama, president obama early in his first term removed an Inspector General. At that time there was bipartisan outrage. They took the case the court. The courts ruled he did not have standing. That is the kind of thing that can be resolved in legislation. Host he didnt have standing because there was nothing on the books . Guest thats right. Host gilbert, arizona. Caller i cant believe the last comments. The president has the option to fire anyone who works for him. These generals were people he decided to get rid of. It is that simple. Obama did it, now President Trump did it. It doesnt matter if obama did it first or if trump does it now. As much as i respect cspan, and i respect your mission, you have biased people on here like this lady who is clearly politicizing this. If you continue to use things like the New York Times and Washington Post that are not credible, cspan is going to be less credible. Host we have people on with opinions. That is part of the conversation. You get to call up and say your opinion to the guests. Danielle brian, your response. Guest i wish you were around when we were criticizing obama for the same thing. This is a case of keeping the executive branch in check. It is not about trump or obama. It is a very important part of checks and balances. We have to make sure we are protecting these people we are asking to do a good job. We had dozens of inspectors general for looking around thinking, if i do my job well, am i going to get fired . This is not just about people who have been removed, but what are we doing to protect those who are still expected to be doing their jobs impartially and with rigor . Host california. Republican. Caller i have a question for danielle. I am curious im curious about her outfit. During her time in this job, did they look at Hillary Clintons misdeeds with her emails or Debbie Wasserman schultz or pakistan or all the crazy things we dont hear about on tv . I have never heard of calling in five Major Players on a testimony for Hillary Clinton and giving them blanket immunity so you cant followup. That is insane. I am wondering what your guest felt about such an outrageous thing to happen. Guest i honestly have some regrets that we only learned because of recent information, lawsuits by Judicial Watch about some of the misconduct while secretary clinton was secretary of state, and what appeared to have been improper dealings with the clinton foundation. I regret we did not know about it earlier. I think it is something that is a real problem. As she was secretary as she was being confirmed she promised she was not going to be receiving funds from foreign governments or entities, and they did. I think it is a problem. Host griffin, georgia next. Caller the only comment i wish to make is that President Trump, why did you fire that Inspector General . He says i dont even know the man. Mike pompeo told me to fire him so i did. I have the right to. If there was nothing going on, why would pompeo ask him to fire the man . That doesnt make any sense. You cant fire him because when the only reason you give is because somebody told you to. Thats ridiculous. That is like firing a detective at a Police Department because the person he is investigating says i dont want him investigating me. And you say well ok, i will just fire him, i dont know anything, never seen him. I will fire him because you want me to. Guest i think what dottie is pointing to is the problem that all inspectors general face which is they are bringing forward information sometimes it is not rising to the level of in agency being concerned, but sometimes it might be something that gets to the point of investigating the head of that agency. If we allow the president or the head of the agency to decide we are just going to remove them, we are creating this class of untouchables in the political system that is to our system of checks and balances. Host donna is next. Knoxville, tennessee. Caller i do think there should. Caller i do think there should be Senate Oversight on the igs being fired. The reason they are there is to find wrongdoing. If the person is finding wrongdoing and can be fired for no reason, that is why we never learn anything. We spend millions on investigations and i think that is a problem. So much money is spent on investigations when theyre supposed to be there working for the people. Which leads to the larger point, and the problem with government today as we have the same people elected over and over again that have been there for 40 years. We need term limits on senators and congressmen so we can get new ideas and new people and stop going on this hamster wheel of investigating each other. Which is why i supported donald trump because he was not a career politician. I am tired of the same people. Joe biden has been in government all his life. Enough already. If he is so great, why didnt all of these things he say was going to change happen years ago . I get frustrated with the same people. Guest i dont think term limits are a good idea in the congress. I have seen it takes a long time for members to actually develop skills and knowledge about how government works. Many are coming from outside, which is a good thing, but they need to learn about the functioning of government and what to fix. I have found people new to congress are less effective. I think there are other things we can do to improve the functioning of congress, including making sure they do not have to spend all their time raising money. Host richard in colorado. Caller i am wondering why there is not some sort of separation of powers act to keep away from this . This president has been nothing but corruption, obstruction and extortion. It is like he is the dictator of the country. This isnt president ial what he does. It is dictating. It is the same as the president that has been in venezuela for years. I just wish we could have a truly independent president of the United States. This has been so much nonsense. We are going to get more of the same with whoever is president. This is total dictatorship. Guest we have a law called the constitution. It does lay out these balances of power. The power the problem we have been seeing is that congress has not been acting to its potential as a check of the executive branch. That is why we have seen so many overreaches of the executive branch. Host lisa from georgia. You are next with daniel brian, director of the project on government oversight. Lisa, you have to listen and talk through your phone. Turned down your television, please. Caller i am calling because i want to make a comment on checks and balances. People have to understand that our government is a democracy, not a dictatorship. Checks and balances are important to keep corruption out. If the president fires inspectors general because they are investigate an official, they are investigating an official for corruption, that is a problem. We all have jobs. We all work for corporations. When we go to our jobs and we are fired for doing our job, just fired because of the way we look or, you know, just for no reason i mean, we have to understand this government is a democracy. We cannot allow this to continue. President trump made a statement he lies all the time, but this one statement he made that is very true, he says he could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody and wont lose a single vote. These people that are protecting donald trump, that is the only true statement that has rolled off the tongue of this man. Host we will leave it there. Guest i think that what we are talking about is are really important features of democracy. Checks and balances, the role of congress and ensuring there is not this executive the realize and years for the congress are inspectors general and whistleblowers. Those of the classes of people we need to be doing more to protect. Host here a comment from twitter. When a whistleblower reports something that turns out to be false, should the lying whistleblower be protected from adverse action . Lisa sends us this tweet, ask the guest who investigates the investigators. Guest the first one is clear. Being a whistleblower has mostly negative consequences. To be a whistleblower, you are taking tremendous risk. If you are doing something that you know to be wrong, there is nothing to protect you. There is no benefit whatsoever to that. I agree investigators need to be investigated. It is important to hold them accountable. The president needs to be presenting a reason for why they are being removed so that it can be evaluated by congress. Host pleasant valley, new york. Republican. Caller good morning. The one email that came in about investigating investigators i dont understand. We have the bidens making money overseas. If he got a prosecutor fired, he has a Sexual Assault case pending congress is doing nothing. They went overboard on the Trump Administration and the kavanaugh thing. I have watched this thing for the last five years, this is ridiculous. This thing is ridiculous. You are sitting there talking about the investigation. Where were you . There is the metoo movement, she is claiming there was a problem and nothing is being done. It is being swept under the carpet. He said it himself, i got the prosecutor fired. Where are you people . Host did you watch yesterdays hearing . The Homeland Security Affairs Committee voted on and approved a subpoena on the Burisma Biden story. Did you watch the that . Caller it is about time. The tides need to change. Host today, the Senate Judiciary committee is going to vote on subpoenas for 53 officials, most of them Obama Administration officials, into the origins of the russian investigation. Danielle, your thoughts . Guest i think you made the point clear. There is plenty of investigation into those matters that are ongoing. I do not think there is a concern that those matters are not being looked into. Host pleasantville, new york. Caller i am still here. You just had me. I want to just make sure that we are not all onesided. This goes all the way back to hillary. She should have never ran for president. This started from the benghazi days, all of this stuff shoved under the carpet. Nothing is being done. Host lets just finish up. What are you watching for next . Guest i am watching for congress to Work Together to pass protections for inspectors general to make sure there are standards before an ig can be removed to ensure watchdogs are protected to do their jobs. Host if you want to learn more about miss brian, you can go to pogo. Org. We thank you for your time. Guest thank you. President trump is in michigan today, touring a fourth plant that will produce ventilators. This was originally scheduled for 320 time but things appear to be running behind schedule. We will take you there live when the remarks begin here on cspan