Thanks, and welcome everyone. When we held our First VirtualDiscussion Forum six weeks ago, i dont know if we would have imagined this would become, as it has, such a wonderful ongoing series. We are incredibly fortunate to be able to draw upon a network here at jackson of our senior fellows, faculty, and our friends. One such former senior fellow is sir general graeme lamb. Graeme has taught at jackson for number of years, is a retired army officer who served for 38 years, including as commander of the field army. General lamb is a renowned expert on leadership, on crisis planning, and counterinsurgency. He served in Senior Leadership roles in iraq and afghanistan alongside the u. S. Generals petreus, crystal, and mattis, further cementing that special bond that connects the United States and united kingdom. Graeme is a dear friend and i am grateful he has taken the time, along with your friends over your right shoulder, in the cool helmet, to join us. We are delighted today to be joined by general jim mattis, who served as the United States secretary of defense following a storied career in the United States marine corps. General mattis rose over the course of four decades, was commander of u. S. Central command, and while all of that is probably well known, what ight not be well known is that when graeme was teaching at yale, he ask our students to lay out their strategy for afghanistan, and as a prize, he told the students he would send the best essays to general mattis to grade, which he did. So, general mattis, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your service to our country and hey, thanks for grading those papers. At this time, i would like to hand it back to the person who will run our conversation today. Thanks. Thank you so much, jim, and thank you secretary mattis and general lamb for being with us this afternoon, or this evening, in general lambs case, in the u. K. I want to ask secretary mattis, ask you to reflect for a moment on the significance of the covid19 event. How big a magnitude do you assess this from a perspective . A perspective of global ignificance . What are the key historical parallels that come to mind as you think about your previous career of service, and grappling with all sorts of International Security challenges, large and small . What is it that concerns you most about what we are seeing right now . Are interested in your we are interested in your perspectives to kick off the conversation. Thank you, ted, and to everyone for having me here. We have to be careful, as a Great Western philosopher put it, about making predictions, especially about the future. We are flying to a degree blind right now, as far as many of the specifics. No matter how authoritative some people sound, they are using assumptions to give predictions. Those assumptions will be proven or disproven in the weeks and months ahead as more data about this nasty little bugger of a virus becomes known and we see how people respond in our scientific medical community response. I would say without a doubt, you can make some broad generalizations. One of which would be the impact if we go back in our own histories, of those of us on this screen, including our own students, certainly the impact will be greater than 9 11. I think that can probably be quantified even at this point. The impact will be on the global order, it will be economics, it will be on the social order, and i think that the denial of this by certain government figures anywhere they are in the world s very unwise. I think a recession is very likely, and a depression, global, is a possible outcome. We will have to see on how we do on reopening, but i will also say that the fragilities being exposed to the International Order, to people who thought just in time supply chains with single sources was economically wise, that will be shaken. But more importantly, leadership competence is going to be evaluated differently. I mean, we all enter into some kind of social contract that we will pay taxes and give authority to people who will take care of us, make sure the prosperity and the safety, and security of the country is there, and when you see the social cohesion breaking down under populism, it has gained some strength at this point, gained strength to a breakdown of cohesion. What is underpinning social cohesion, the social contract is being washed away to a degree. Now, that is not true everywhere. One of the things that is happening is the International Order, where we had come to give respect and support, whether it be the united nations, the European Union, the world health organization, they have been tested, and in many cases rejected as part of the solution or even part of the problem. I think the International Bodies were already under a certain amount of stress, but we are going to see now, covid has really given them a tougher test. As we go forward right now, we are going to have to see if the sovereignty of the state and the nationalist tendencies go too far, from sequestering medical supplies, closing borders, turning off sharing of information, or does this drive us towards a hey, we are all in this together, viruses do not Pay Attention to borders, we are all going to have to come out of it . These are questions that will rely heavily on the Political Leadership for answers. Governance effectiveness will be written this time in many peoples conscience. There are going to be people who are scared and scarred by this for years to come. We will have to address it as we go forward. We have seen good Political Leadership in countries in historical times like this, bring them out stronger. We have also seen regimes collapse regimes collapse, political structures, countries collapse, so it will be interesting to see how we respond. In world war ii, the trauma of all that and the Great Depression that preceded it, we did a lot of things together. I think it is to be determined if we are going to become more interrelated, integrated, interdependent, or try to go our own way, which i think would be a horrible outcome. Let me pass it over to sir graeme and see what he thinks. Dont you hate following someone like jim mattis . He has set me up for failure here. It has been my good fortune to have spent time with people like this, but i would reinforce what general mattis said. I think the real danger is we probably individually as nations can deal with the symptoms, the results of this damn virus. We can contain, control it. We can get around it. If you want to deal with the cause, another way sars, mers, keep going back through history, this damn thing is coming around again. The next turn of the wheel, if you do not address the cause of these pandemics, then we will be attacked in a way which could be more of a greater magnitude than the one we are facing right now. An attack is exactly the right term. You know, as a soldier, it is quite simple. Our responsibilities are to rotect our people, our prosperity, and way of life. 9 11 hit all those three. This damn pandemic has most certainly smoked all three in a serious way. I think we havent seen the end of it by any manner or means, and if we are not careful, the outcome of prosperity, the global economy, will affect our children and childrens children. So dealing with the cause whether it is wet markets in asia, whether it is bushmeat markets in africa, whether it is in south america, all of these things can only be addressed as collective, as part of an allied cause to deal with something which will rip our hearts out and take away their future our future and our childrens future if we dont address it. So i think the importance of reaffirming what it is to be an ally it is not the convenience, it is not comfortable, not tangible. An ally requires commitment. It takes time and trust. It does all that, but it is over a huge amount of time. In preparation for this, i came upon what i think is probably the most accurate articulation of what an ally is, and it was the natchez and, secretary of state, dean after send dean atchison, secretary of state, 1949, when they went to sign the nato treaty in ashington. His line was simply this, the reality which is set down here is not created here, the reality is the unity of belief, of spirit, of interests, of the community of nations represented here is the product of many centuries of common thought and the blood of many simple and brave men and women, and it is well that these truths be known. That is what it is to be an ally. That is what it takes to deal with something. Dont throw blame. In the 1930s, the blame was on us to allow germany to rearm, how we the englishspeaking people, through our carelessness and good nature allowed the wicked to be rearmed. The guilt lay with germany, the damn blame lay with us. If we do not recognize that now, and that is across government, thats across all political parties, the social contract, it is in fact the great work being done by commerce and business look at bill gates. What a fantastic effort he has put into trying to grapple with this problem and bring those parts together in an allied cause, no different than the Marshall Plan. If we do that, we might just have a chance as we look forward. If we dont, the answer is the future is going to be challenging. If you think we will be ok alone, you absolutely will not. Thank you so much, general lamb. I want to give general mattis an opportunity to respond to that, who has of course written very passionately about the mportance of allies and allies to United States interests and the world order. Your service in nato and other eadership roles, working closely with allies. General mattis, what would a greater allied approach look like, do you think, in the current covid19 context . It is not, of course, a traditional military threat, but are there military, defense leadership planning lessons you might apply to how you would approach this broader Global Challenge . Just the fact that yale has graeme on right now, i used to remind my american officers that not all the good ideas come from the nation with the most aircraft carriers. Graeme lamb, who has never received public acclaim for it, but he is the one who broke the enemys logic in iraq and led to the shift in our tactics and approach, for which some american generals have been given credit. In fact, it came from allies. The three things i learned about defending america from any threat over 40 odd years of you paying my tuition were allies, allies, allies. I do not know how to construct, whether it be against covid or against fascism or communism or militarism, i do not know how to defend america, because we dont just defend a geographic realm, although i could not defend that without allies either, but the realm of ideas that grew out of the reformation, the enlightenment, and those are passed to us, as George Washington put it, for our safekeeping. We will see if the idea of a republic like this can survive. Like lincoln asked on the gettysburg battlefield, can the nation see a long survival . What with the Lessons Learned from history, to answer your question directly, what would they look like . Clearly you need intelligence. You need to see Something Like this early, or see it coming, so the person you would do is have the first thing you would do is have something, maybe call up the world health organization. We would be all honest in our reporting, and we would be urgent. We would report quickly. It would go into some sort of international group, whether it be in one location or connected by the internet, as we have the capability to do today, and the best minds in the world would be working together to shortstop this thing, and people with warning could use it. Political leaders would be guided by science and medicine, not by narcissism, and quickly decide to start taking action that would be based on a compilation of scientific and medical opinions of what are the most effective ways to stop this, reverse it, save life. This is something that begs the human problemsolving approach of collaboration, of getting together. The ascent of our species has been dependent on this, and it is as if we have lives of long, fat, dumb, happy, we think we dont need allies, things like the Marshall Plan or nato to defend its idea of democracy. When you get to that point, then you have really strayed from what we call the greatest generations view of how you live on this planet. They came back from world war ii and they said, a depression that left 20 of the boys draft into the army had to be fattened up before they could even start training, because the malnutrition in our country was so bad. They came back from a war where hundreds of thousands of their buddies died and said, it is a crummy world and we are part of it whether we like it or not. They were very pragmatic they are called the greatest generation, not just because hey stopped fascism in its tracks, but because as truman put it, if we not only whipped fascism, we welcomed the japanese, german, and italian people back into the community of nations because they recognize that we needed to band together if we werent going to just keep revisiting this. So how did we get to a point today where we are closing borders, shutting off the sharing of information, we are now penalizing people who want to work more broadly in the best interests of humanity, and so i think what you want to do is read your history and understand why did the greatest generation come home and put the imf and the world bank in place . Well, it is so people who lost all economic hope or prosperity and a good life for their children did not have to turn to a shaven head fascist named mussolini for hope. There was a lender of last resort out there. So where is the lender of last resort right now in this world for hope against covid . We are all scrambling to put it ogether, and thank god for the nongovernmental organizations, plus theres some some there is some democracies have done well, taiwan, israel, new zealand, australia, the republic of korea, everyone is stressed by it, but this is not the failure of some of the democracies to deal with this well. It was a choice. It is not a given. It was a choice and when you have bad strategies, whether war r peace, people die. Those would be some of the lessons i would bring up to expand on what graeme brought up about the allies. I dont know how you do this without allies. Call me crazy, but 40 years i served this country and i was privileged to fight many times against enemies i dont know how you fight this enemy without allies, and i never thought fought those fights in an allamerican formation before. It was always alongside allies. Something has gone wrong here. 2014, 70 nations combined to go after isis. That was an international coalition. After 9 11, we had the largest Wartime Coalition in modern history was fighting because new york city had been attacked. Fighting in afghanistan, grew to 50 nations. Look where we are today. The australian ambassador when they told me that america made the single most sacrificial ledge in World History after world war ii. I was thinking, you mean the Marshall Plan . No, not the Marshall Plan. It is when you set up nato. After world war ii you couldve have said europe, that is it, thats twice in 25 years you have dragged us into one of your silly, stupid wars. We are through, turning to latin america, asia, africa, and the middle east. You are on your own with the soviet forces in germany. Instead, he said your nation pledged 100 million dead americans in a nuclear war to protect democracy in europe. I question if we could make the pledge today. Back over to you. I want your reaction to that, general lamb, this question of leadership in the Current Crisis general mattis referenced a number of countries performing reasonably well, allied nations that are performing perhaps better than the United States and the u. K. In confronting covid. Are there any particular leaders that have impressed you, or more generally what are some of the qualities in a crisis like this that leaders need to nationally convey . I think there was an interesting, if anything, my experience is that in a time of crisis, most people think we had a crisis in 2008, and these were serious events, a crisis is defined by unpredictability, uncertainty. Covid is a classic example. We are scrambling even now to understand the nature of this virus. You go back to franklin roosevelt, 1933, the one thing we have to fear is fear itself, so what you do is you get this enormous energy being shot through. Theodore roosevelts great lecture in 1910, later on in that speech when he talks about journalism for being a force for good, you get a great deal of speaking to people, who then say this is not working. It is broken. The impression is it is happening everywhere, but it is not. My entire life has been about that, but getting it right. So when you look at character, character is really exposed in times of great crisis. Inston churchill, he was complicated, complex, but that lovely line, never turn his back, but pressed forward, never [inaudible] a battle to fight. Hurchill spent his entire life falling down and failing, getting up and getting on. When you are in hell, keep going. And so the character defined by nietzsche, that very complicated german, austrian, character is ore often defined by the experiences a person has not ad, then by the experiences he has. And so what we find in our leadership is a lot of people who have been very successful, their life has been pretty easy. It hasnt been presented with, all these people in truly haotic situations, great uncertainty, lifeanddeath have recognized the responsibility and have leaders have grown within that so they are fit for their time, fit for their moment. What you want is to make sure that people look at our leadership and do ask that it, isnt fit for purpose . Are the individuals or collectives leading and demonstrating a level of thoughtfulness in this crisis . Take for instance, i think it was Benjamin Franklin, the first american, he had 13 virtues. These are the things a we look for in many ways in our leaders. It is right there we should ask hy they are not. Thank you for those comments on leadership. I want to get secretary mattis reaction to it. There are a number of countries offering detcht leadership models in this crisis. Hey are hiding data. Is this an event that is going to create lots of different crisis in stability or legit massy . How do you view the response of other actors, particularly china and how that relates to global affairs. Ive been surprised by how many this was a complete surprise. Life is not fair. This shouldnt have happened. Surprise usually comes from a black swan. Something that never happened before. Or it comes from a perfect storm. A number of things that you couldnt anticipate all of them happening at once. This is neither of those. This is part of the human condition only for the last couple thousand years here. Ignorance is while it is kind of widespread, we shouldnt this was seen coming. This was something that we have read about. We had legislation about it, at least in our own congress. So when you look at the character of what we have rewarded with Political Leadership and the democracy, you have to look at it and say why did we why have we seen some awfully basically some very poor stumbling. Some stumbling around. Part of it is just do you accept it or deny reality . Churchill got very frustrated once when a reporter said hese are dark times. There are tragedies in the human condition all the time. Churchill rejected it. He said these are stern times. They called on us to do not just our best but what is necessary. If you dont have people to take it on like that, it doesnt tter if their model is aauthoritarian. They have to come to grips with this reality whether we like it or not. Whether you enjoy having to sit on the couch and wash your hands four times a day or not. This is our reality. This is our battle of the bulge. It is our iwo jima. This is the way it is going to be. The leadership is going to take a combination of competence and it is going to need empathy and compassion. Empathy in this case is going to be one of the leadership tools. When you look at hour this is being handled around the world, competence is absolutely required. You going to have the competence to do something, i think that right now in some cases the populace movements have respond a degree, this american myth as it was called that said my ignorance is every bit as valid as your wisdom, as intelligence. That is not true. That is simply not true and it has to be addressed as a big con game when it comes up. When you look at Something Like hina and you have an aauthoritarian party in power that prizes staying in power and expanding that power more than anything else, we should not be surprised at some of the challenge wes have had getting accurate information. At the same time, this is a hina that has been tchsh the south china see. The population with the young people in hong kong. The democracy on taiwan. This is a continuation. We even see chinese and Russian Federation military activities as apparently starting to pick up tempo right now. Which is something that we have to look at as a consistent but disappointing with countries that i think the democracys still have some hope bringing inside the community of nations in a responsible way. Why do i bring it up . Can you imagine right now if out of those countries that have been conducting those cyberattacks, cybertheft, this sort of thing, if they were to switch on a cyberattack in the midst of this, just think now start thinking about what is a cumulative effect . This is why we have to get back to the rules of the road, internet organizations. Having penalties for someones that misbehave. Im not talking about war. There is a million different ways to deal with a country that is misbehaving. I think china right now is going to come out of this damaged in its credibility that it had built up, some of it built on the hope of the western democracy and i think too that russia is going to go that way. Unfortunately there are some democracies that are starting to ake on more power. We have to look ourselfs in the mirror and say bad cases make bad law. This is a real bad case of a flu, ill guarantee you. If we make longterm policies based on this lrks governments be willing to give up their influence over the economy, over the movement of people . This sort of thing. This is something we have to look at. We cant think were somehow immune from this. We have to be looking closely at realm that sir graemebrought up that were trying to protect this utah ute of ideas, of beliefs, of interest, realm that sir of spi. It is all under attack. The aauthoritarian can give the appearance so that the control of information can be more capable. Back over to you. Thank you, general mattis. I would like to get general graems reaction to this uestion of china, of other a authoritarian regimes, if you put on your old military hat for a moment, is this a moment where strategic surprise in other areas is possible . Could you see russia or china or of wishing to take veng this situation . Ow do you view this . It is a real pleasure listening to general jim there. Think there was an interesting, you might say that covid19 has created a moment. In many ways the defense is synonymous with military. The euphemism for military and yet has in that is not the case. E do that. The department of defense. Defense budgets. Defense programs. All of this is a language of defense and it is actually not. It is a langway Weather Channel of military. Ss essential to a nation to be able to have strength. If you dont have the moral will, you dont have the intent mmit that then it is which has no substance to it. I think what this may well do is greatest to relook and rethink about defense. Both the military, obviously a conversation in its own right. Butabsolutely you nailed the truth of the matter is youre being undone as we are. What we have done is spent three centuries applying a concept of orce on force. How the military operates. That makes good sense. I think it was 1920. The president of the wrote to the league of nations. Basically said along the lines the Committee Considers it very desirable that war should resume its former character. That is to say that it should be a struggle between army at not populations. Ve have found that we have been drifting into this space. We have democracies in particular, have been under attack, constant. Across all lines. Economic, social, information. Propaganda. We havent seen it as an attack. We talked about the cyber. We have a 150 higher rate of attacks into our military facilities. They are going to go for ransom ware and take data. Crime and criminal activities, part of that phase which is defense of which some of that fits within the military but in many ways not always. You have to have the nconventional green berets. You need to understand the contemporary environment which which we are being undone. Propaganda. Information. It in effect brings to our nation into the credibility of our ability to in fact stand individually as nations and then in fact come together as an ally. So the trufte matter is unless we widen the lens back out to what defense is and redefine that narrative, both of what the nation can afford and what the nation would wish to do and we t the tools in place, not to merely accept the attacks on our nation. Someone could turn up in salisbury and kill a british citizen with a nerve agent, that sucks. You can cut it anyway you like. Having strong words what does this look like . You have to look at our ability to operate. We were really good at operating proxies. The whole range needs to be rebrought into. China is a really good example. William hayes the other day on another webinar i locked into with policy exchange in london said heres the two realities. China will not play by our rules. We cant solve these problems without china. You put a reach out and you have this conversation. It might suit you to have an economic, commercial, who to blame enemy out there right now. The truth of the matter is china is a global architecture. They are also part of the cause of this problem and they recognize that we need to help them and they need to help s. I know general jim was involved efore. China, what we mustnt do is just accept their word. They were days late coming in with the data. We all suffered because of hat. They dont get a bye on hat. They have the wherewithal and more data to bring that together, bring in expert systems. Use the incredible technological tools we have now, especially in america to get a better feeling of exactly how we might be able to contain it, how we might be ble to control this crisis and more importantly covid19 of that and beyond. I want to get general mattis reaction to that. All of you could submit questions using the question and answer function on zoom. What do you think about what general lam was saying about redefining the concept of defense . We have a number of questions and answers about the conception of broader security we need to adopt. Should we think about the challenge that china poses in a broader way . When you were secretary of the National Defense strategy, did it herald a shift towards greater trade power competition as opposed to the earlier focus on terrorism . If you think back now on defense planning in the Current Situation doing a wider lens, why would you think about that . In defense you always have to marry your time. If this was 100 years ago we would not be concerned with nuclear defense. It would not be that. The most important thing is it became a very clear view of what is the reality . Clearly our foreign default deployed troops, others, they did nothing to stop covid. By our people, i mean more than just american people. He conception of defense has got to incorporate Cyber Defense. We have to find a way to protect our country from cyber attacks. Ask estonia what happens when you are unable to do that. Our traditional tools for how you deal with this sort of thing, i think in many ways, i have said this before publicly. I think the americans militarize their Foreign Policy in the 1990s. This is not a political statement. There have been republican and democrat administrations that did it following the berlin wall. We have to get back to something more than regime change or economic sanctions where we weaponize the rules reserve currency. Theres a lot more to deal with the people in the world that we dont agree with than just those two options. We will have to find ways again to find likeminded nations. Nations with the response of government whether they be monarchies, governments, whatever. They are ones we could work with, we will have to work with them. We restrain those nations that would support terrorism. Currency manipulation, this sort of thing. If you get enough nations together, if you get together with other nations, you know the European Union is deathly concerned with what china has been doing with them. I got over enjoying humiliation in public by the second grade. If we want allies we will have to Work Together and move this needle on Great Power Competition more towards great power deterrence and to great power peace. That is what we want. We dont want it to go towards Great Power Competition or great power conflict. You cannot do that in compelling or persuasive away as a deterrent as one nation versus one nation as you can by setting the rules. So nations out of their own interest Work Together. That is a way to persuade nations that may not like the idea of having rules and International Order. Beijing obviously thinks in the tradition of some chinese history they want tribute states. We are going to have to deal with that. You will not attack them. You will not withhold medicines when they need them. If you do, there will be longterm consequences that are ot your best interest. Doesnt mean a war or Something Like that. It is a recognition that the estern democracy thought for several decades, i think legitimately tried with the community of nations. By 1948, really 1947 to a degree, we are already trying to bring the former nazi germany back inside the community of nations. I dont blame the clinton administration, the two bush administration, or the Obama Administration to bring chiming china in from the American Point of view. It has failed. We have to confront that reality and play the ball where it lies. Interesting stuff there. Thank you general mattis. On this question of great power deterrence we have a number of questions about the fracturing of europe as well. Whether it is brexit, rising populism and rightwing parties across europe, great power eterrence is very difficult if allied nations are not acting in concerted fashion. Do you see covid as potentially being unifying for europe . Im not a european expert by any manner or means. It has been an interesting project. If there was ever a time for europe to be together, it is now. Here is the hard call which is i dont think it is going to appen. Amongst the 28 nations, a view from france which was absolutely endearing with the rich history and all the way, the idea of political unity. You had from britain, were a nation of traders. Were shopkeepers. For us, europe was all about trade. When the going was good, that ll worked very well. Ure not going to change greececulture. Greece has its problems but it is a bit like china, you will not change greece culture. They were being told to be very germanic and how to address problems in a way that was culturely from any of the ways they solve problems. Europe i think as a grand republic will never happen. I think the financial pressures based upon it by covid, you will get a northsouth and eastwest divide. Is it a place where i would really wish to be to go back to the early discussion to go back to the early conversation about allies . Common beliefs. The unity of spirit. All of these things, we absolutely have it. What we have to do is reaffirm hat rather than make it what france, germany, britain and recognize that together we are stronger. As it stands the Union Britain is out i get that, that is not a problem to me. That is part of a wakeup call for europe, too. Brussels needs to change. Is it going to change . I dont see change anytime soon. We got a lot of questions about the role of the military specifically in the covid risis. When you think about what more could be u. S. Or allied militaries be doing internally within their countries or overseas . Do you see a bigger role potentially for the Defense Department in sort of bringing National Power to bear on this . Is it primarily a challenge that lies in the health and cientific and economic seers . In america we have the department of homeland security. It seems to me that americans while we have a great deal of trust and by and large a high degree of respect for your military, we have to be careful about turning to the military. I think that hurts us with Foreign Policy. I think it creates a situation where diplomats, our Education Systems are on the leading edge of this radical idea that people could govern themselves. I dont think that is good because the military necessarily has to put things into black and white terms and operate. When you think about putting a ilitary in charge of this, i have no problem with tasking the military doing anything underneath health and human services, fema, underneath the department of homeland security. Before world war ii nearly half of our armies running civilian conservation corps camps taking oung men off the streets and sending moneys home giving them jobs because of the depression. It turned out to be in the long run probably better for our nations military defense in that case. You dont want to put the military into the decisionmaking role and on think. You have to give them that if you give them the responsibility. They would have to have the authority to direct. It would rightly state that u. S. Congress in parts of the cabinet designed to be leading this, if they need to move medicine or protective equipment from florida to Washington State or they need to get doctors out to guam or puerto rico or new york city, assuming we didnt have it every year that the military would be eager to fly them, certainly they could do that and logistics. Were greated a logistics. Even i am still amazed at what we could do. When you say bring in the medical facilities, they are made to operate under the worst conditions. Think it really needs to be seen as responsive to civilian oversight rather than falling back on because they are Mission Oriented, lets plug the military in. We need to get the government into the Mission Oriented roles, not just keep falling back on the military. We are reaching the end of the time so i will pose a question to general lamb and then come back to you. Is there any opportunity or Silver Lining you could envision coming out of a crisis of this magnitude . There are a few questions on this area. Are there any sort of political hurdles that might be sur mountable that were not possible before when secretary mattis referenced this in the International Order after world war ii . Is there any opportunities or areas you think might be possible to move the needle given what has happened here . I do. I do some work with a cyber group called c5. It is part of the cyber alliance. A whole range of Technical Companies come together. To the british nhs system and nto america saying what we could do on the Cyber Defense ide, just ask. Do you think bill gates worked on turning his entire foundation saying we have going to smash the vaccine . We would say that is fantastic. Rather than saying this is a genuine what i call partnership, the opportunities for coming out of this, the general recognizes oo if you dont know where you youre going, any road will take you there. What you need to do is say this is where we are going to go. Based upon the information you have, people start to drop in behind you. My view is right now is in fact if we get this right, i will see people dropping in behind. I could see some real energy where people will turn around and say not only is it the wet market and all the rest here. The way we smashed up some of the habitat space which has brought species who never were close together or in fact just he needs of people to say that we want that. To be brought in it together, you have to move now. The world is connected, not informed. Theres a chance some of the movements, look at how the Vegan Movement has gone from nothing to really quite active as it oes out there. I didnt realize that Benjamin Franklin was a vegetarian. There will be an opportunity maybe not to be led by the politicians but the politicians to recognize the votes come from people and their the popularity, all of that so paying attention to that voice of the people coming through will be something ith all of this great work being done by the host of ngos, it may well be that they could start to drive. If it is popular, politics will follow it. It has to be done. This is the only way we will deal with the cause. It is part of a great and larger alliance. So there is an opportunity. Some of this stuff has to come into, the imf, the idea of how we look at the rest with some of the fragile space. Some of those that are in real difficulty now, ensure that we have in place the wherewithal within our own nations. In many ways to turn around and say this has been a real hit. Hopefully it will not happen in africa. How will we be able to help in scale and with speed . Secretary mattis, we have a final question here from one of our jackson students whose a military officer in a downing scholar here who was asking about the internal crisis of leadership, the crisis of citizenship that you were alluding to earlier. The significant divisions within our country. The lack of social cohesion. How do we bridge that populous nationalist abide and grow in our own country, the United States if we are realizing some some of the broader Global Opportunities the general was just alluding to . Thats a great question. I think it takes leadership. Trying to understand after i got out of the military while i am now more concerned with what we are doing to ourselves internally is destroying the country than the russian 345eu6 sailing on to the shores of connecticut and settling the university of connecticut or the chinese airports bombing alaska. I read about finland under manheim back in 19151920. The reds versus the white. It was a terrible turn for the country, some on both sides. When he did in the second time, he did in the second time, 1940 41946, some signed up in support of the germans, they had been attacked before and that part of the war by the russians. He did a second time. I read about mandela and what he inherited and how he was able to bring a country through it. It takes leadership. I would say that danger and disc that discomfort that sir graham and i have dealt with, young soldiers how they get the name. We have seen them stripped bare by the danger and discomfort. I think there is something steinbeck wrote in the grapes of wrath that a sad spirit will destroy you faster than a germ. This is our time to make decisions. There is no decision where we have to stay with purely national decisions. Number one, they will not work, we will find that out. There is nothing to say we have to take bad decisions at this point. We will be defined by how we handle the worst thing that happens in our life. For people who are in positions of leadership, we will judge them as we should judge them with how they handle this. It could be what give a good old winston called our finest hour. We can put others first and the communities, schools, states, country, internationally. What are we going to do . Are we going to live up what we to did with ebola and all the things. We got models for how to do this. I think what we are going to have to do is rediscover what our values really mean. What do they do, those previous generations, that gave us this gift. I always hear about the greatest generations. I was raised by them. Im not so sure the current generation of leaders have educated themselves, inculcated the values we owe the young people today to turn over this world in as good of condition as we got it, or better. It is a very mixed role right now. It will take leadership, that is the bottom line. We will have to select the right leaders in the democracies. I hope the authoritarians do the right thing and eventually let their people have a say. The leadership will make all the difference in the world. History is very compelling on this. You can go to aurelian in the third century a. D. And see what he did in a similar circumstance. There are examples in history of leaders who are able to turn these situations around. Some long ago and some more recent. This is a choice. I hope and pray we make the right choice. Thanks again for having me on. Sir graham, i dont forget my debt to you and all of the democracies with the leadership you have in some very difficult stood by us. Back to you. Thank you. Secretary mattis, general lam, thank you so very much. This has been fantastic. To the hundreds of members of the Jackson Community who have been watching this, thank you , everybody. Stay well. Goodbye. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] s washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. This morning, we will talk with illinois representative rodney davis about congress in the coronavirus pandemic. Then, the overall response with the director of the wilson center, aaron jones. How thet changes to Supreme Court functions with the National Constitution centers Jeffrey Rosen. Join the discussion. Watch saturday, when we take calls from ice coolers across the country preparing to take the advanced placement u. S. History exam. Yea, all persons having business before the Supreme Court of the United States are admonished to give their attention. For the first time in u. S. History, here the u. S. Supreme court live. The court is hearing oral arguments in 10 cases by teleconference. First up, today, the justices here the case of u. S. Patent and Trademark Office versus booking. Com. The fight to trademark its website. Be a part of history and listen to the Supreme Courts oral arguments. Live, today at 10 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan, on demand at cspan. Org, or listen on the free cspan app. Immediately following, join Jeffrey Rosen of the National Constitution center, leading a live discussion with callers. Next, testimony from a senate panel on the challenges of remote voting, including new technologies, the constitutionality of moving procedures online, and security concerns. I hope everyone is staying safe and healthy during these unprecedented times. It is certainly an unusual time. Churches and schools are closed, healthcare workers are working around the clock. ,ust in the last five weeks based on the numbers i saw this morning, it looked as though 30 million americans have filed for unemployment