Transcripts For CSPAN Discussion On Homeless Veterans Covid-19 Pandemic 20240713

This forum is airing live. It is a historic moment. I want to thank both republicans and democrats alike for making this possible. The majority and minority working in a bipartisan way. It is the first live entirely virtual bipartisan forum for the United States congress. The first one ever. Modulation,s, everybody making this possible. So covid19 has changed everything. Every american is affected. And americas veterans are not immune. In fact, veterans are facing unique challenges right now due to the Global Pandemic. But the challenges created by covid19 will not go away overnight. In the wake of this pandemic, new challenges will emerge and their impact could become just as severe as the novel coronavirus. There is no shortage of frightening statistics that point to how tough times are for countless americans right now. Very, veryver the grim statistics. More than 55,000 americans are dead from covid19. Nearly 7000 veterans have tested positive. Of which 435 veterans have passed away. Certain mitigation measures have resulted in 26 million new jobless claims in a month, including an additional 4. 4 million just last week. The numbers will impact veteranss lives for years. And that is why our work here today is so important. To those watching at home, i want to thank you for being a part of todays forum. And i hope this video forum finds you and your loved ones well. I also want to remind many of our viewers, if you are a veteran who is experiencing hardship due to covid19, please contact your local v. A. Veterans,eating all regardless of their participation and medical care regardless of their participation in v. A. Medical care or discharge status. So i encourage you to call and get the help you need. You can call from anywhere in the United States. Call 18446982311. That is 18446982311. To arrange for medical services. Today, we will be addressing several issues related to veteran homelessness. First, the covid19 crisis has affected tens of thousands of veterans who were already homeless before stayathome orders were issued. Some services that serve Homeless Veterans, such as in placeshave closed due to positive tests or lack of workers to support the population. Second, covid19 has brought our economy to a halt. Million last month, 26 americans have lost their jobs and are struggling to pay their bills. They are wondering how they will pay their rent or mortgages. Congress has placed a moratorium on foreclosures over the next three months, but it is a temporary solution. Foreclosure or eviction could be a problem for countless veterans if more Permanent Solutions are not put in place. This crisis could force more veterans into homelessness, and we must act to minimize that impact. Learning what resources we can use to prevent homelessness in the first place is paramount. One of the Lessons Learned during the 2009 recession was the value of aggressive action to prevent homelessness in the first place. This is something we should all heed in our work. It is 10 times cheaper to provide resources to prevent homelessness in the first place than it is to house someone once they have become homeless. In response to the 2009 recession, congress acted in the first month of president Obamas Administration to pass the american recovery and reinvestment act, otherwise known as arr, which created the hud Housing Program otherwise known as hprp. This programs and resources directly to local governments to help renters. This program among other actions resulted in an unchanged homelessness rate from 2008 to 2012. Past caresy act, which provided 2 trillion dollars in assistance in the wake of covid19, also provided 20 billion in support of the v8 to help our nations heroes. V. A. Was given Broad Authority to use this funding. Allocated 300 million to the Homelessness Program office. I remain unconvinced that this is anywhere near enough. And i hope our work here today moves us closer to what is really needed. Finally, we must dedicate resources in the recovery phase to reintegrate veterans into their communities. This congress has now passed four covid19 assistance packages, but we have failed to provide our local governments and hospitals the resources they need to deliver our muchneeded Homeless Veterans. For example, the cares act included 4 billion for the Emergency Solutions grant, which can be used by states and local governments for rapid we Housing Programs. Of this is only one third the need estimated by the National Coalition to end homelessness. This is on top of the massive shortfalls states are facing due to covid19 response. The answer is not as leader mcconnell has said for states to file for bankruptcy. This is for congress to set up. States are facing budget shortfalls in the billions. My own state of california will likely see a shortfall this year exceed 25 billion. Theresident trump thinks federal government is a backup for states, then it is time to back them up. Monetsorward to ms. Thoughts on how we can most effectively support states, but time is running out and we must act. I hope this becomes a real priority the next time we returned to washington to provide additional assistance. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses what resources are needed. Again, i appreciate everyones participation in todays historic forum. And i look forward to todays conversation. Memberecognize ranking ron for his opening remarks. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for hosting this forum today. Good to see our colleagues in good health. I know we look forward to getting back to washington and working together. Before i begin my remarks today, mr. Chairman, i would like to take a moment to acknowledge the toll that the covid19 pandemic has had on veterans and allamericans who quite frankly are over the world. 180 countries have been affected by this pandemic. The latest numbers provided by the v. A. As of yesterday, they veterans and0 tragically 452 of them have died since the crisis began. In addition, 2153 v. A. Staff members also tested positive for covid19. 20 of them have passed on. I want to express my deepest condolences to the families of the veterans and the v. A. Staff who we have lost. We pray to god for the healing grace for them and their families. I want to express my sincere appreciation to the dedicated v. A. Employees all across the nation that continue to step up and care for veterans and support state and local response efforts as well from housekeeping staff to the Health Care Staff and all the way to the secretary. I know all of our v. A. Employees continue to put Veterans First and do everything they can to stop the deadly spread of this virus. Mr. Chairman, we know the covid19 crisis has placed an enormous strain on everyone. And those strains are evident today with how congress conducts oversight during the pandemic. The Gold Standard for oversight or in person hearings with witness panels, and i appreciate the unique challenges presented by the covid virus and that todays forum is an effort to respond to that challenge. But make no mistake, todays forum is not an equal substitute for an in person hearing. Leadersnow, our party talked and developed ways to return to congress during the pandemic. Latereciate your staffers last week with our request. They were unable to send a representative on such short notice. I request that if this Committee Moves forward with digital forms, that we collaborate to identify topics and witnesses. Turning to the issue we are discussing today, covid19s impact on Homeless Veterans, as it continues in many parts of the country, it is right for us to ask, how do you stay home if you do not have a home . What happens to Homeless Veterans who are not able to safely access shelters and other sources of housing and other assistance . How has the three hooded Million Dollars that congress has authorized in the cares act to support those veterans been allocated . What additional action is needed to help those still struggling . These are the types of questions i hope we can answer today. I want to thank Catherine Monet from the National Coalition of Homeless Veterans for being here to provide the coalitions perspective. Mr. Chairman, i stand to work on additional possible legislative fixes for the program and i look forward to considering them as soon as possible. We know the best way to help Homeless Veterans is to work byether, beat this pandemic continuing to flatten the curve and reopen our country and get to work in our economy as safely as we can. Mr. Chairman, this is a very diverse country. Is verypens in new york different than what happens in rural east tennessee where i am and what happens in our state. So i think we have to take all those things in consideration as we go to congress. I look forward to the session. I yield back. Thank you, dr. Roe. I would like to introduce Catherine Monet, chief executive officer of the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans. Monet has served previously on the staff of Veterans Affairs and with the alliance to help and veteran homelessness. You are recognized for five minutes to give your remarks. Members of the house committee, thank you for the opportunity to join you today. Homelessness as you know makes individuals and veterans more vulnerable to conditions like covid19. In d. C. , we have been experiencing homelessness make up 4 of deaths but they comprise only 1 of the citys publishing. According to v. A. And cdc data, veterans right now are currently at 12. 9 percent more likely than civilians to pass away because of the virus so Homeless Veterans are truly vulnerable. Reports that 30 individuals, the majority of whom were veterans, tested positive at a facility during the week of april 13 spike many being amedic. Symptomatic. More clarity is needed to understand the true scope of the virus on the veteran population. Better data will help v. A. Identify and address social disparities or any challenges that may exist in the identification and treatment of covid. The pandemic has undoubtedly impacted veterans in a variety of ways by making it harder to find housing. Creating new Mental Health challenges for veterans feeling isolated in housing. There are already organizations committed to dividing Vital Services on a daytoday basis, but even they face pandemic challenges from ppe and disinfectant shortages, identifying innovative ways to safely deliver services, and construction stoppages. The 300 million that the v. A. Has allocated to homeless programs. V. A. Has announced an additional 200 million of that funding will move to grant use, and these are wellestablished programs that serve veterans. The Additional Resources provide some flexibility. Virus can overwhelm the va hospital capacity. Veterans can selfisolate when at risk. A fix is needed. Social distancing requirements for safe operations require admissions in the current facilities by up to 75 in some of the most compressed facilities. The cares act did not offer direction to the v. A. On whether there out to be a maximum, so we urge you to direct the v. A. To temporarily increase per diem rates to a maximum of three times the rate. Struggling with expenses such as disinfectants, masks, gowns, sanitizer, and other related supplies that they need to operate their facilities safely. These factors coupled with reduced charitable donations have truly created financial strain for these organizations on the front lines of this fight. Given the infection rate documented in facilities across the country, any further delay is putting Homeless Service providers in the impossible position of making life or death decisions since the money has not yet been released to grantees. We need more testing for unsheltered veterans and those in transitional housing, especially if it is a conga get environment. The cdc has noted that currently testing is critical to reduce the rapid spread of the virus given the number of patient to metacarriers we have seen during widespread testing. Prioritized if they are at high risk, especially those in the most congregate housing we have. Vitamins need exit plans that lead to permanent housing. Many have moved to remote operations because of the pandemic. We need to do everything we can to get the program moving across the country. This committee has led on that but we need to double down and do more to ensure we are putting people in permanent housing and motels and hotels. Last but not least, the road to recovery will be long. Avoiding a major increase in homelessness during 2021 will serve veterans. Of 1. 34 billion, including funding for hud. Wemployment benefits, anticipate a wave of vitamins foreclosure, but there are many changes that can be done to blunt the impact of this pandemic. Thank you for your interest as we work collectively to lessen the impact that covid19 will have on veterans experiencing homelessness. Rep. Takano thank you for your opening comments. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Ms. Monet, i have heard medical facilities are turning away individuals test positive and are asymptomatic, preferring to treat those that have lifethreatening complications from the coronavirus. This creates an unexpected complication for Homeless Veterans who test positive and live in conga get transitional housing. Do you have a good accounting of how many veterans in transitional housing have coronavirus . Ms. Monet that is a great question, sir, and i wish we had a better accounting. I have some anecdotal numbers from members that run in the 30s right now, but i dont have any sense of how many of the inple who are veterans and transitional housing have tested positive. Rep. Takano thank you. Do you believe the v. A. Is aware of many veterans who have the virus . I think the v. A. Is aware of the risk factors, but i am not sure sufficient testing is available such that they can do widespread testing in transitional housing facilities the way they probably should be. Rep. Takano can you briefly speak to the importance of testing at transitional facilities and housing facilities . Ms. Monet absolutely. One of the things the cdc found was in shelters where they found a single positive, the transmission rate was lower when they conducted widespread testing and isolated all of the asymptomatic covid positive veterans. So they were not spreading the virus to other people who might be at risk. Once you have one, you start to see the cluster effect pop up. In some shelters, particularly in boston and other places, they have seen a positive rate in the range of 60 , largely all asymptomatic carriers in shelters. Given the way the shelter environment is compressed, there is not a lot of space to isolate. Testing is critical. Has v. A. No how coordinated with states to ensure homeless facilities do not become transmission points for the covid virus . So what i have heard from members is that coordination is different from Medical Center to Medical Center. So i heard that there is coordination in certain states. I also heard that in some states the health care for the homeless facility might be a stronger partner than v. A. Or department of health. It really depends on whos got the resources in the community. Rep. Takano for instance, in california we have a project turnkey that governor newsom, who has worked with hotels and forls to provide housing the homeless, provide housing for frontline medical workers, and in many cases, people who need to isolate. But the county where i live in riverside, california, riverside county, has done the same. It seems to me that the congregate housing with Homeless People, Homeless Veterans testing positive, we need to get them into housing which allows them to isolate. Not only social distance, but isolate. Ms. Monet i would agree. That is the goal. Keeping people safe and making sure we have the resources to do that. I can tell you that there is a program that they have been using some of the funds from the cares act to really ramp up isolation, particularly for veterans who are clinically at risk. The release is th of more gdp funding will help with in that population but there is a lot of room for improvement. Rep. Takano a variety of programs addressing veteran homelessness during covid19. Can you describe Hotel Resources have impacted shortterm Housing Programs such as the grant perdiem compared to longterm Housing Programs . Ms. Monet yes. Teleresources have been important. There are social providers who have done things for the remote population to keep as many as them as safe as possible. We have seen a lot more use of teletechnology. Rapid rehousing and landlord engagement and a list of other things. Rep. Takano i just want to know, has not made an impact on Homeless Veterans being able to access the services . Ms. Monet in some regards, yes. Some older veterans have struggled with the technology. Others have thrived. It is on a casebycase basis, but yes, there is an impact. Rep. Takano my time has run out. Let me move to recognize dr. Roe for five minutes. Rep. Roe thank you, mr. Chairman. Just a quick correction. I dont know that we know that veterans have a 12. 5 greater mortality rate. We have no what the denominator is permit we have not done you enough testing to find out what the prevalence is in the community. Il we know that, we need we dont know what they are. As the testing goes up, you find more and more asymptomatic cases that are positive, then mortality rates will go down. We need to wait for more information. One thing that is very important for veterans is one area of concern for especially Homeless Veterans who do not normally file tax returns. How will they receive their covid19 stimulus check . What are you telling your members about the best way to help ensure this population gets some money . And if they have dependents, there dependents get qualified. Ms. Monet we have been promoting a lot the irs resources. I wish there was a more seamless way to deliver those benefits, but unfortunately, that is the best information we have right now to provide the veterans and our members. Rep. Roe i know when we do point in time each year to estimate how many Homeless Veterans and Homeless People there are in the United States is there a, way to contact those folks . That if itmore than is a family that might be homeless. Ms. Monet absolutely. I think that to the extent folks in our community are still doing street outreach, they are sharing information on the irs to bless payments and some other resources that might be available to veterans at this time. Rep. Roe mr. Chairman, one of the things we may want to think about doing is whether they can extend this, find these people, this timeline if the checks go out. That would be hugely important. Or 2400 would be pretty good. One of the things that i would like to know and was not able to find out, in our Homeless Population, where we live in northeast tennessee, it is a very minimal problem. In los angeles, it is a huge there. I heard numbers as high as one homeless veteran in 10 live in camps in california. Veterans make up as much as 30 of the Homeless Population in california. I would like to know where our Homeless Population is. It is very much Like Fighting the covid epidemic. When it is isolated in new york and where i live, it is a very minimal problem. I have counties with one or no cases. Do you all know exactly where those almost veterans are so we can focus those resources where they are . There is some Government Data on where Homeless Veterans are. It is the interval point in time count. The point in time count is good in it is a yeartoyear comparison but it also has weaknesses in that you get when you count. If your account is not a good quality or you are in a rural area, it is harder to keep track. Generally, we rely on local Service Providers who know their population in greater detail. A lot of committees are adopting a list where they are looking at a communitywide engagement where they are case conferencing and keeping track of everything the veteran or every single individual that is homeless and trying to make sure they are meeting those needs and getting people what they need to get off the streets. I think in rural areas, it is particularly challenging because of the geographic spread and because oftentimes you see a lot couchouble or nothing surfing as opposed to homelessness on the streets. Rep. Roe here is what we found out. A couple of problems in the program. One is finding people who would accept that much money from housing. Certainly where i live, is a lot easier than where the chairman lives in new york and other places. That is one thing. Number two, we as a committee have to figure out how to get more counselors, more people to look after these people. That has been hard for the v. A. To do, to find these folks to manage the cases. A huge turnover in that. I think we have discussed this. I just want to finish up. My time is about expired but i wanted to finish up by thanking you, ms. Monet, for taking this on and visiting with our homeless folks. We have to keep a close eye on this Going Forward because of this pandemic. I yield back. Rep. Takano thank you, dr. Roe for your past concern as chairman when h you chaired the committee by visiting los angeles and your awareness of the tremendous challenge we have in california. I appreciate the work you have done. Miss brownlee, you are recognized for five minutes. You are on mute, miss brownlee. Be sure to unmute, miss brownley. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to you and your staff for putting this together. I really do appreciate it. For joiningmonet us. I wanted to shift the conversation a little bit towards Women Veterans. Particularly Women Veterans who face housing and security. It always seems to be that we dont really have an accurate count of how many veterans who are experiencing homelessness or who are unsheltered or those who are at risk for homelessness. I wanted to know if you could speak briefly about why that is and how we could do a better job. N predicting those counts ms. Monet so that is a great question, representative brownley. One of the challenges we see with vitamins is they do not oftentimes access v. A. Services when expressing homelessness. They may be doubled up, similar to what the congressman said in rural areas. They may be accessing services through continual care or potentially through Domestic Violence providers or others who may not be as tight into the network of services that are available for veterans. In terms of Getting Better counts, though, i think there are potentially ways that we could look to engage Women Veterans in a more productive way or a way that would entice them into services and to being counted and opting in. You know what i mean . Rep. Brownley yes. Thank you for that. The other thing, i chair the womens Veterans Task force. And we heard from many Women Veterans really across the country who have told us time and time again that Women Veterans with children particularly tend to not access services. And the reason they consistently give is that they are fearful that they will be separated from their children. And so my question really is, can you kind of walk us through why this perception exists . And in what ways it is a valid concern, and in what ways it is a misperception . Ms. Monet yes. It is an absolutely valid concern. When you are homeless, it is a hard time mentally. You are out there with your children. You are thinking about the Child Welfare system and whether you might be separated from your children or not. If i were in that situation, i would worry and probably choose the same thing some of these women are choosing. Some of the challenges they face ,s likely broader v. A. System the designs accommodate single men. If you look at the longstanding Shelter Services that were available early on, a lot of what we had was accommodate single unaccompanied males. There has been a significant amount of change that has taken place in the last six or seven are moremake sure they accommodating to women and families. What you see as new programs have been added on, those two programs in particular have among the v. A. Programs the highest rate of utilization within the Women Veteran population because you can bring your children along and you have private housing and dont have to worry about keeping them in a shelter that might be crowded or unsafe or uncomfortable to live in with your children. That truly is a concern. Rep. Brownley you know, in your capacity, have you witnessed this happening where actually it is not a misperception . That is actually happening, that women are being separated from their children. Ms. Monet i think what i have seen is sometimes women present thinking that they need shelter, not recognizing there are other Services Available that can better meet their needs. What i am hearing more of his women potentially being told they are not a fit for the program they are maybe trying to able into because its not to safely accommodate their children. So not necessarily that they are being turned away but they are being redirected to other more appropriate services. Rep. Brownley my time is almost up, but have you seen a shift, i guess, in terms of those providers that are out there trying to better accommodate Women Veterans and Women Veterans with families . Ms. Monet absolutely. I think in the last few years, we have seen that increasing. I can tell you from our perspective, we have a significant number of calls from women with children and male veterans who are unsheltered with their families. Rep. Brownley thank you very much. My time is up, and i yield back. You have to unmute. [laughter] rep. Takano thank you, miss brownley. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I push it very much. Thanks for holding this hearing. I think the Ranking Members as well and appreciate miss monet being here. Thank you for your testimony, ms. Monet. I have a couple of questions. Miss monet, you have described a situation where the additional funding provided to grant and per diem recipients could be spent very quickly if there is not a cap on the reimbursement rate. I share your concern of course as we want to make sure we are appropriately providing funding to as many grantees as possible in a fair and reasonable way. Should you believe be the gdp rate . What is reasonable in your opinion . Give me your proposal as far as a reasonable pay scale, what have you. I think we all agree there needs to be an increase and we have to take the cost of living is different in different parts of the country. So if you can elaborate on that, i would really appreciate it. I know you have touched on it to a certain extent during this hearing. Please. Ms. Monet that is a great question. I feel like over the years, there have been a number of different ideas floating around as to how to make the Reimbursement Structure more equitable for providers. I think we have been looking at a factor of two to three times the per diem rate given some of the expenses with our members. Three would be the floor if v. A. Has sufficient funds to support that. We are giving about huge costs from shelters that have had covid positive cases that now are paying one dollar per square foot physicians at their facilities on top of all the other costs that are associated with renting from them. Rep. Bilirakis ok. Thank you. Next question. Once this virus crisis is behind us, how do you envision the Services Offered by the homeless veteran providers to be affected . What do you see as the roles for both the providers and the Homeless Veterans themselves as they transition into a new post virus reality . Ms. Monet that is a really good question. I think we are still grappling with what services will look like as we are learning from providers who are right now in the thick of modifying the services and operations in order to do what they need to do safely. As we continue to learn more about the virus and about how we can operate, my answer may change a little bit. But i think for today, if you asked me, i think environments where we are placing people in permanent housing or transitional housing that is, you know, spaced out, i guess, where veterans are not so condensed into one space would be optimal. I mean, i think in the ideal world, if everyone had permanent Affordable Housing and there was no need for a shelter system, that would be a really great thing to have, but i dont know if we will get there. Maybe we could, but rep. Bilirakis ok. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I yield back, mr. Chairman. Rep. Takano thank you, mr. Villa rakas. I now call on mr. Lamb for five minutes. B thank you, mr. Chairman. Monet,y appreciate miss you joining us today. First, i would like to recount. I spent some time with folks at veterans Leadership Programs in pittsburgh, which is kind of our with Homeless Veterans to take care of the ones who fall behind again. I just want to say to the v. A. Folks that were listening, they were extremely complimentary of the way v. A. Has handled the funds that were in the cares act. I guess just recently dispersed. They felt like v. A. Was reaching out to them and making them aware of the opportunity that existed, and they felt the funding was a lot more flexible than it has been in the past. The way they kind of broke it down for me was that that funding should allow them to pay maybe three month of rent at a time for a veteran who has gotten behind because they lost a job or whatever reason to prevent evictions when things really do get bad here. Just want to complement the v. A. For dispersing the money quickly and in what sounds like a pretty efficient way. I just wanted to ask you, miss monet, if you have seen or heard similar reports from around the country about the way the v. A. Is getting this money out there . Whether it is possible enough, whether it is happening in the right way, or whether it is consistent nationally . Ms. Monet yes. And let me tell you, i love the Veterans Leadership Program as well. We have heard really great things about the way the program has gotten funding out the door in a speedy way. We know the program has a tiny pocket of funding that i think they are trying to use in a very intentional way. So i am not sure whether that funding has been dispersed yet. But i think what we are hearing a lot of is grantees waiting to hear from v. A. What will happen with the funding that was allocated for the gdp program. Lamb great. Thank you. My other question is i think the direction that testing needs to go next is the ability for teams of people to go out in the community and do testing proactively and not necessarily ait for people to come into Testing Center so we can isolate outbreaks where they are happening in real time and try to prevent them from growing. I guess, would you agree that these transitional homes that you are talking about for veterans are going to be an important place for us to send testing teams because the veterans live in such close contact . Maybe you can explain for any of our viewers on youtube or for me to tell my constituents that you can explain a little bit about what that close quarters living is like in these places . Our people sharing bedrooms . Are they showing bathrooms and things that can spread the virus quickly, thus making it important that we do testing . Ms. Monet yes, absolutely, i can explain. There are a variety of types of transitional housing. And some of them are single room occupancy type, where you have a bedroom but you are sharing a bathroom or kitchen facilities. Others are like apartments with multiple bedrooms. Maybe you have one veteran in one bedroom and another veteran in another bedroom and you are sharing a common area, your living room, your kitchen, the bathrooms, but having. But then there are other facilities that are a little bit bigger. Youve got veterans that are in bunk beds and maybe 36 to 40 inches apart. The cdc guidelines say you should generally keep about six feet from each other. So when you think about how you space people, some of them are trying to make they sleep in opposite ways. One person is this way and the other that way. They are setting up barriers. You have other facilities that just have cots or mats laid out on the floor in spaces, in squares. That is where you have your mat. It can look a lot of different ways. That is why it is important to look at what we are doing to protect people who are in those facilities. I definitely agree with your assessment that these facilities will be important pieces to test, and i do think we should start with the facilities that congregantt, the most overcrowded. Rep. Lamb i agree. I am out of time. Thank you for your participation and those answers. I yield back. Rep. Takano thank you, mr. Lamb. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairman and dr. Roe, your leadership in putting the forum together today. We thank you. Miss monet, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your work on behalf of Homeless Veterans and taking time today to answer our questions. The current pandemic has interrupted our lives in an unprecedented scale. I am glad this committee has found creative ways for us to continue our work on behalf of veterans. The veterans in my home district , american samoa, face many challenges. Usually related to our remote condition, remote location, and limited resources. However, i am glad to say that homelessness is not one of those challenges. I believe the reason for that is our tightknit community. We dont have a lot to work with. But we take care of each other. I think we can all agree that attitude and caring for one another is more important now than ever before, especially for those most vulnerable in these trying times. Miss monet, in your remarks, you disparityabout the seen in the identification and treatment of covid19. Can you please expand on these issues . And what have you seen in relation to this with your membership . Ms. Monet so that is a good question. I think what we have seen, and the comments in my remarks referred largely to the broader population, where we started communities, a lot of the people affected by covid tend to be people who look like me, right . People who are africanamerican. Maybe people who are native american. Jobs, havee everyday to go to work, are essential, ride Public Transportation, also potentially impacted by the longterm effects of systemic racism or colonialism or other things that just really cause them to be at higher risk. So when you look at how you need to think about a response, i think we need to make sure that the response we are developing as a country is a response that truly serves their needs. I mean, i also think that we have not seen a ton of data out there on the asia Asian American Pacific Islander community but that is another point that is of interest to us because i think there are in some communities where you see a larger api community, there are certain sectors of that committee that are at higher risk. Rep. Radewagen thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my time. Rep. Takano thank you, miss red wagon. I now call on missed 11 for five minutes. Thank you, chairman takano. Thanks to my colleagues. Great to see you. I hope this is the first of many Virtual Meetings and hearings we are able to do as we move forward with it worked important work serving the veteran community. Eliminating veteran homelessness has been one of my Top Priorities since coming to congress. The issue will become more dire as we confront the covid19 crisis. While the cares act provided v. A. With substantial funding and more authority, it is clear that we need to do quite a bit more. As chair of the Economic Opportunity subcommittee, i am glad to be working in a bipartisan way with my colleagues to craft additional legislation that addresses the needs of Homeless Veterans and those that serve them. Look forward to working with you and leveraging what we learned today to develop upon our current work permit miss monet, thank you for your partnership earlier this year. We had to Case Management funding for fiscal year 2021. Can you discuss how the covid19 crisis is further exacerbating existing staffing issues at hud and how we can mitigate those challenges . Ms. Monet absolutely. There have been some challenges related to covid and just related to stopping in general when you look at, you know, the demand for case managers in certain communities and the limited number of people who are qualified to fill those positions. I think that as you see health care providers, you know, looking at filling critical needs related to covid, we may not have as many social workers or case managers or other people who are critical to making hud work available. I think staffing continues to be a challenge for v. A. One of the things v. A. Might consider looking at is utilizing the Contract Authority a little bit more and thinking about whether they can partner with local Community Providers to really meet the needs. I think there may be some early discussions of some hybrid programs in place. But i think that anything they can do to accelerate progress on that would be really helpful. Rep. Levin thank you for that. And we look forward to working with you on that. Todays session also remind me of a statistic of when we had a field hearing in san diego addressing veteran homelessness. I know chairman takano was there with us and the Ranking Member was with us as well. That is preventing a veteran from becoming homeless only costs a 10th as much as we housing the veteran once they are homeless and already in crisis. Obviously, the toll that it takes on the veteran beside the point. How critical is it that we get ahead of this problem with robust funding for effective prevention programs now as opposed to waiting until downstream . It isnet i think actually critical. And that saying you mentioned is 100 true. I also think that on that note, we do need to hone in on hud because housing someone with it is much more affordable than putting them up in a motel for 45 days or however long is needed because they are clinically at risk of contracting covid. So i think that it cuts both ways and that we have to look at response from a crisis as well. Rep. Levin we appreciate your input as we work on the next bill to hopefully address this. Last question for you. In speaking with alluha akbar local veterans since the with a lotarted of our local veterans since the pandemic started, there is a huge spike in Mental Health wecerns and that the v. A. , were speaking earlier this morning with secretary wilkie, and they mentioned the huge rise in telehealth visits for Mental Health, but what would you recommend we do proactively to reach out, doubling down to try to prevent Mental Health crises from becoming veterans, particularly among those Homeless Veterans and those at risk of homelessness in the veteran community . Ms. Monet there are a couple things you could do. There is significant overlap in populations of people excreting homelessness. I think there are stunning statistics that v. A. Has around the risk of suicidal ideations spiking around evictions, so to the extent that we can prevent homelessness and put people in housing more, that would be a really Critical Response that i think also continuing with telehealth and doing more to reach out to people and engage them in ways even if you cannot reach out to them in person, you know . Making sure they feel like someone cares. Rep. Levin my time is up. It is good to see my colleagues. Take you all for making this happen. Rep. Takano thank you, mr. Levin. Thank you for participating. I now move on to call on mr. Musa. You are next. Thank you, chairman. It is nice to be with everyone. Miss monet, thank you very much for your testimony here. Educational as well as just very important for us to hear and i was going to say appreciate but not so much appreciate, but take in and be reminded as to the seriousness that has existed for quite a while. Is relatively rural. I have a number of small, we call them stress cities. Unemployment is a little bit higher in my district, particularly in the small cities, than had existed in our previous economy. Is in general a problem. It is not an issue. It is not pervasive. We have dozens of people, for instance, but enough where it is not only sad, but we have a number of good commuter groups that lean in and are Community Groups that lean in and are in a good way. The Veterans Administration is the same. V. A. In my district and the books very v. A. Outside my district. They are not overwhelmed with homelessness. Has onsite housing that they provide. Up to 20 Homeless Veterans. And we have other outlets with hud. Hud is very responsive to our needs. We engage in getting housing and homes, and it is good. But it is not handling it all. Not by any means. You, with this crisis, by the way, that too has not really affected outside of taking in elective surgeries and that sort of thing, our Veterans Administration, both of them, they have had about 500 tests. About 50 positives. This is sort of just an fyi. Interesting that they are both about the same. About 20 hospitalizations. Each have had one fatality. Equipment and that sort of thing is ok. So that has not necessarily changed the dynamic of homelessness. But lets face it, this crisis has changed a lot of dynamics here, so clearly it must. We just dont have the data on it. You have entered a lot already. And gave for our community in eastern typeal pennsylvania, this of homelessness absolutely exists. Veterans are homeless. What programs can you suggest that are currently within the v. A. System that maybe we are under utilizing . That we could maximize . Or, what new initiatives would , if you areo create in charge of my neck of the was woods my neck of the here . Ms. Monet that is a good question. I will give you my top of mind answers and offered to work with your staff later if you want something that is more cohesive. I would look at where your Homeless Veterans are coming from. And how frequently they are flowing through the system. Is your challenge, if youre not making progress, is your challenge related to more veterans becoming homeless . Or Homeless Veterans becoming stuck in the system as they try to exit to permanent housing . As you look at that, that will give you a better understanding of where you might need to create new partnerships, whether of Health Systems or the justice system, or employers. And looking at employment and training, for a variety of reasons. Ok, thank you. Ive really appreciate it. I really appreciate it and i would like to reach out to you as we work toward improving the situation. Ms. Monet glad to help. I yelled back. Mr. Chairman, i yelled back yield back. Chair takano mr. Pappas . Thank you for this forum. As we go through the pandemic we think of it as a Public Health crisis. It is a human crisis as well. Those individuals who are marginalized, experiencing homelessness, are disproportionately impacted by the worst impacts of covid19. Thank you for your testimony and your constructive thoughts about how to move forward and address needs. We have heard some tragic reports about the impact covid19 is having on rate septa mastech violence rates of Domestic Violence. Reporting appears to be down but this is likely because victims feel trapped and are afraid to try to get help when stuck at home with their abusers. Sometimes the safest place is not at home. Women veterans experience high rates of intimate Partner Violence which adds to their susceptibility to homelessness. How would this impact homelessness among the womens veterans population, and whether you expect to see increased rates of messick violence among that population . Ms. Monet i will be honest and say i am not a messick violence expert. Based on my im not a Domestic Violence expert. It is probably accurate that there will be increases. I am hopeful we will be able to find Housing Solutions for anyone who wants to leave. Absolutely. You point out 15 of veterans who are expensing homelessness, you are experiencing homelessness, havent other than Honorable Discharge. It is far more difficult for them to receive care and services to qualify for programs that help them find stable housing. Can you speak to the impact of a could have on this group . Ms. Monet yes one of the right Things Congress has done is enhancing eligibility for key programs. Assistance, transitional housing, rapid rehousing and homelessness prevention. Isre we need to look permanent Supportive Housing, Affordable Housing targeted to veterans, and their Key Resources that veterans will need to stabilize in the wake of an economic crisis. One thing we know about this group of veterans is, because they tend to be so disconnected from the v. A. System, they often are homeless for longer, have more Severe Health conditions, and are facing many more barriers to stable housing. To the extent we can look at element aiding some of those barriers moving forward, the hud bash or other programs, i think that would be crucial to recovery. Thank you. I was speaking with the director of my v. A. In manchester, new hampshire, who highlighted Food Insecurity continues to be a top concern among our veteran population and homeless vets, particularly the need to get to the store or to get access to food and supplies. With youreing this partners across the country . Ms. Monet what we have seen his Innovative Community efforts to serve those veterans. Transportation can be a big challenge and a lot of communities, especially for veterans and permanent Supportive Housing. Where you are not in a shelter that provides hot meals. Youre on your own. You might be in a community where Public Transportation is not running or where there is no Public Transportation. And you have to figure out how youre going to get food and socially distance. Do you have a mask . All those things that make it more complicated. We have seen innovative work from communities, in terms of going out and levering supplies delivering supplies and what is needed to veterans, to make sure they are not just hungry. Thank you for your thoughts. We look forward to working with you, especially as subsequent legislation will be considered, as how to expand on funding allocated in the cares act, to make sure we are targeting to veterans most in need. Mr. Rose . Ano thank you for taking the time today. I want to talk to you about telehealth. That is becoming more important in the v. A. System and in Health Care Systems across the country. Can you explain how we can consider innovative ways to expand telehealth opportunities to Homeless Veterans . Ms. Monet yes. There is a lot that can be done. The thought process around telehealth revolves around permanent Supportive Housing and how you can use Telehealth Technology to bring Case Management to veterans while theyre at home in their apartment or wherever they are living. In some communities, the distance between the v. A. Medical center and whereabouts veteran and where a veteran lives has been challenging for case managers. Your case manager, you start at 9 00 and you have to drive x number of hours to visit this that are in an x number of hours back and it its up a lot of your day when youre not being productive. Telehealth, especially for permanent Supportive Housing, can be a major leap forward, as long as the veterans are comfortable using it. In larger permanent Supportive Housing developments, potentially allowing them to use someone to help them utilize technology would be great allowing them to have someone to help them utilize technology would be great. We have support group set of popped up for individuals, and vigils are civilians who are using technology and meetings we assume, to get each other help meetings via zoom, to get each other help and feel they are heard and have a community that cares about them. Theres an Organization Called invisible people in new york that does a great job at facilitating these groups for people who are unsheltered. I would ask the same question, in terms of teleCare Management. Understand there are interesting options. Should we be feeling more of a sense of urgency, that there are some things we have to do, in terms of integrating technology s Care Management systems, its outreach systems . Because this notion of having a andl of care managers nonprofit partners going out into the community may well not be something that can return for some time. My question is, what you think we should be exploring or feeling a sense of urgency around . Ms. Monet theres a sense of ,rgency in the crisis because absent the technology, there is no access to Case Management. That said, there are some parts of Case Management, that you cannot really conduct the teletechnology. It is one thing to check in with the veterans and make sure they are complying with her medication, that they have food to eat, and that they are safe. That does not this early translate into understanding whether the veteran is really thriving in their housing, or whether there may be struggling to adjust to living inside, and is potentially exhibit behavior that might make their ability to hold onto their lease and their unit challenging. Cons, andre pros and we have to be thoughtful. In the midst of the crisis there is definitely urgency. Luria . Akano ms. Thank you for the virtual hearing about committee. Of our committee. Social distancing standards mandate the shelters to reduce occupancy by sometimes up to 75 . Change in the per diem rate, are there any solutions not financial, that can be considered to maximize the ability of these facilities or shelters to help veterans, or to partner with other organizations in the community . About in a tourism industry, so many underutilized hotel rooms and facilities. Are there opportunities for partnership, particularly during crises like this, that can accommodate sufficient number of veterans, that may be unusual or unthought of partnerships . Ms. Monet yes, absolutely. There is a significant amount of activity going on on the hud side, with regard to utilizing funding for isolation rooms in hotels and motels. F program because they have gotten funding released to them has been able to move more aggressively on that than the transitional Housing Providers in the grant per diem program. One talent you will see with per diem providers is the daily rate of rebirth meant is 49 of reimbursement is 49. If you are really great negotiator and you have a hotel that truly needs a business, then you can do that without huge financial tall. Toll. But you have to think, not are you taking on rooms in a Hotel Contract to pay on a night by night basis, but you nate you may need additional staff to support and care in the facility. You have to figure out meals and other things. That is why we are calling for the increase. We recognize social distancing is essential. But that financially, it is very hard for transitional housing thatders to be able to do in a hotel or motel situation, with the current rate of perdiem. Thank you for that feedback. Additionally, there were changes in relaxation of shelter absence guidance in the cares act. Can you talk about how that has manifested, particularly in different shelters . I believe it said it should waive a requirement to discharge a veteran from the program if they have been absent for 14 days . And then make, continue to pay the per diem after a certain time. And if they have been absent for 72 hours. In addition to that absence, what happened what happens if a veteran is absent and maybe with additional family members. Shelter may be able to accommodate additional family members . Ms. Monet v. A. Was quick to issue guidance on those parts of the care act. I would be happy to share with you and your team. A lot of the intent for the guidance was to ensure providers would not be penalized if veterans needed to leave and isolate or potentially contracted covid and needed to be hospitalized. One of the things that is a challenge, is that there are there is a lifetime limit on the number of times you can use the program. So for a veteran who has used their two of three chances, if he contracts covid or she does, has to leave for the hospital, they have to exit the program. They are not able to come back from the program. In terms of coming back with families, i think that there is no way v. A. Pays per diem now for dependents. There has been legislation quoted for a number of years that an chb does support. So i do not know that there would be an impact in terms of payments, but it would be on a casebycase basis, as to whether the facility they came back to was a facility that could safely accept children. Is a bunk bed situation, or mats, or something where you have more individualized housing and that can ensure the safety of the veterans and their dependents. I would love to have that Additional Information if you are able to follow up. Thank you for participating today. Ms. Lee . Kano i had reached out several of our partners, nonprofits in the cabrera, shalimar, who runs a u. S. Thats. And to talk about the challenges they were facing. S. Vets operates over 330 beds, transitional and permanent housing and they have been forced to lock down their facilities and therefore have seen a significant increase in their operating costs. Served 80100 meals a day and now there one header 50 150. They have had to purchase activity kits and ppe to deal with their veterans during the lockdown. While the organization is lucky because they have received a lot of donations for items such as toilet paper, other organizations have not been as lucky. Can you talk about ways congress can help offset some of these unexpected operating costs and what you are looking for and cares 2. 0 . Ms. Monet absolutely. We have some aggressive asks in cares 2. 0. You are spot on. There are a lot of smaller providers than u. S. Vets. We love u. S. Vets in las vegas. Chbr whole family is an members. There are providers struggling and who have locked down their facilities and who have now been unable to accept mill donations where they would normally have corporations come in and provide breakfast daily or lunch daily there are not really doing that. And so they are seeing these huge costs in unexpected ways that have not been budgeted for, because who couldve land for pandemic like this you could have planned for a pandemic like this . So to the extent you can work something out for the grant per diem program, that is important. Realizedsked for, and quite how dire the ppe shortage was a v. A. , if providers were able to purchase ppe from the a cost, that would be from the v. A. At cost, that will be a sick nick in savings for them. That will be a significant savings for them. There out in the community trying to bite at the local Grocery Store and waiting in line trying to bite it at the local Grocery Store to buy it. I do think more is needed in that area, that would be incredibly helpful. About whato Talk Congress provided already in the cares act, with respect to homeless programs and the flexibility we put in their. In there. Shalimar stated to me that while they are flexible for her to put veterans into hotels or motels if they test positive for covid19, theres a worry about what happens when the economy opens back up. Congress put a moratorium on evictions and foreclosures through june. However, one set moratorium is lifted, once the moratorium is lifted and evictions happened because veterans cannot pay the rent, there is a worry that more veterans will require assistance. And the system will become overwhelmed. Can you talk about ways we in congress can act now, to ensure that does not happen, as the country starts to open back . Ms. Monet one of the things we have been looking at is providing flex ability to the ss bf program to extend the number of months they give support. There is a real fear veterans, once the eviction and foreclosure more terms are lifted, will come in with sick nick in arrears and may potentially significant arrears and may only be able to access one or two months of temporary Financial Assistance to move forward. We are not sure that is enough. We are also looking at the hb rp program. That is tied into the housing and homeless system in a way not, so looking at how we can tie those programs together to provide Seamless Services for veterans who are losing jobs and are also housing insecure. We will take a look at that. Thank you. And rashida, i am impressed with your innovations. Chair takano it is impressive. Mr. Cisneros . I live in southern california. One in four Homeless Veterans is residing in california. 3500ange county, there are Homeless Veterans residing. They district, later in air, they were planning on opening up a Veterans Village that was going to house 50 veterans and also provide Wraparound Services to those veterans living there and help other veterans as well, who might be looking for a job, for example. How are facilities like that, and other facilities around the halfhoweally going to are they going to adjust, in this new covid19 era . They were going to provide serving to help veterans with Substance Abuse or having them find a job. Now it is may be more about giving them shelter. How are these facilities going to change and how will they adjust . Ms. Monet there are some key considerations programs will have to make as they move forward. We are hearing from our members dealing with this headon is they are going to have to look at temperature checks, more screening. Some are talking about identifying additional space, where they can isolate veterans who are coming to their facilities for 14 days, before they come into transitional housing, just to make sure they do not have anything that could be transmitted to other veterans. Dropin centers will look different. Transitional housing will look different. Some of the more communitybased Housing Options may need to change may not need to change as much, but there will be significant changes providers will have to think through as they look at our knowledge about growing, andus adapting our operations to that. Do you think there will be a drop off in these Wraparound Services, helping veterans with Substance Abuse or alcoholism . Will those drop off because of covid19 . Ms. Monet that is an interesting question. Depends on the physical layout of the facility. Servicese providing but every veteran has her own room and their own bathroom, i could see making minor changes to food delivery and other things, but being able to operate. If your facility that is congregant transitional housing, bunk bed style, then you may have to decrease beds or find more real estate in which to operate, so you can serve the same population at the same neville if the same neville if the same level of need is existing. I want to thank everybody for doing this. It appears all the members that wanted to claim time have claimed their time. I now would like to recognize roe,ng member roe, dr. For closing remarks. I want to thank the members. A great turnout today. We would rather be back in washington, d. C. , working. I want to give array of light. I think we i want to give a light. Light a ray of i think we are turning a corner. Most of you do not know this but the chairman that i and now our subcommittee chairs speak regularly with the v. A. Secretary and dr. Stone, the under sectary of health, and others at the be eightweek at the v. A. Each week. Our country has really reached out to our veterans to make sure they get the absolute best care we can give them during this pandemic. Job. A. Has done a good i know we have had shortcomings in testing and ppe. But this caught us off guard. We have learned a lot from this. Im optimistic we are going to ,eturn a better and stronger and one is the dreams we have when i first got on the , was that we wanted to eliminate homelessness among veterans. It had been reduced dramatically. I hope this pandemic does not cause us to have an uptick in homelessness in the country. I hope and pray that is not happen. My thoughts and prayers go out to people of lost love ones and to people in the hospital alone. Because i cannot be visited right now because of the pandemic. I look forward to us opening our country up again in the fall. I look forward to the football season where we can see our favorite team. In florida and alabama, we want to do that. To normalback activities we will be happier in this country. At theways amazed goodness of the american people. How they reach out to help their fellow citizens. Whether bringing meals, i see that done. At and join any food Animal Shelter or to food bank. A shout out to the greatest people in the world. It has been a privilege for me and this is my last seven months , it has been a privilege and my 12 years in congress meant to serve on this committee. Chair takano thank you for those kind words. Soon. Ed on you too andunderwood has returned we expect mr. Watkins to return. Participate them to in this historic occasion, unfortunately it historic because of a larger tragedy. So im going to call on them. Ms. Underwood . It is critical that we leverage all available federal resources to protect vulnerable groups during this pandemic. The Global Pandemic has compounded existing vulnerability and highlighted the susceptibility of our homeless veteran population. And some larger metropolitan areas, as you know, 50 of the homeless veteran population has tested positive for the coronavirus. What can our smaller communities do, to best prepare for when covid19 inevitably reaches these vulnerable populations, like Homeless Veterans . Ms. Monet there are a lot of things they can do to be proactive. If youre looking at providers or parts of the community that are specific lease serving Homeless Veterans, you can really start to think about how you would plan from pandemic . What comes of supplies would you need . How would you modify your operations . What partners do you need at the table to make sure, if the inevitable happens in your community, you already have relationships can capitalize on . Specifically serving Homeless Veterans. Also looking at resource of l ability and understanding where gaps are, and thinking through what you would need to keep people safe in a pandemic would be anna parton first step. An important first step. Thate there precautions shelters can implement to prevent the spread in their communities, even if they have not experienced threats . Ms. Monet absolutely. There are veteran focused shelters doing things like locking down the population and not taking new admissions, especially if they are congregant and highly compressed in the facility. There are other things you can do with regard to asking people about symptoms . May be in about have tests, but making sure your screening and assessing and sending anyone who might i clay be a positive back to you might likely be positive back to v. A. For testing. Lookizations like that can at who in their population of veterans currently is at high risk of contracting covid . And thinking about alternate accommodating solutions for those veterans and prioritizing them for other programs or resources to keep them safe. Yet. Yep. And for female veterans, what else might we be able to do to anticipate their needs, how we can care for them and how we can make sure they are being thought of and plan for during this time . For during this time . Ms. Monet the only other thing i maybe did not mention is, looking at what else we can do to support female veterans. Often female veterans experiencing homelessness have kids. Their parents. They are parents. Looking at under appointment, housing instability. You have to think about the issue not only looking at unemployment and housing instability. Not only housing, but helping them thrive. That means connecting them to employment which is suitable and what you can do to support them with childcare or other things that will allow them to more successfully be stable in housing. Closeoffice has been touch with the veterans assistant division who mentions challenges in conducting proper outreach to Homeless Veterans. What are you learning from a larger homeless veteran populations that could be applied in smaller communities . Ms. Monet there is a lot you can learn from larger communities about outreach. Challenges isger building the rapport. Getting out there and knowing where to go and knowing how to connect with veterans or unsheltered people, in a way that will encourage them to look into services or look into housing. Or making services enticing. We know during times of disaster, whether healthcare disasters and emergencies, economic disasters and emergencies, it is the vulnerable populations that see disparities get exacerbated. We want to make sure our Homeless Veterans are cared for and taking care of and are not experiencing disproportionate disease burdens or related impacts. Thank you for your leadership and being with us today. Dr. Roe, is there anything you want to add . Our other member is not going to make it back. Not all, thank you. Roe, i want dr. To thank you for working with me on behalf of our student veterans, the Senate Passed companion legislation. And the covid19 student veteran protections act was signed into law. That would not have been possible without the work, the bipartisan work you and i have done together. Im sorry to say we lost an american treasure that i did not know was an treasure, before this pandemic. That is the folksinger john prine. Exchanged, i had a feeling, since he lived in tennessee, that you probably had a good admiration for him, and i was right. To have your guitar next you . Do you have your guitar next to you . You can close. The train of forgiveness. That was a wonderful song and ive listened to a number of his compositions. And im sorry i did not ever attend a concert in person. Covid19 and the pet and it has taken that opportunity away from have and the pandemic taken that opportunity away from us. We have lost a number of great americans and people around the world. I want to thank our veterans who have heeded the call of dr. Stone. Poignant posted a very call to our veterans, to lead their neighbors, in social , and the type of call to action that our openers and local leaders have asked us to heed. To stay home, and stay safe him and save lives. I want to also remind our veterans who are watching, you can call from anywhere. I said you can call in the United States, but i think you can call this number from anywhere. 46982311. Regardless of whether youre eligible to enroll in health now, if youoll think you have the symptoms of the coronavirus, you are eligible for the a care. If you are a veteran, youre eligible. You are eligible for v. A. Care. That also goes for if you have an other than Honorable Discharge during this time of national emergency, you are eligible to seek care at the v. A. 8446982311. We have made an historic achievement here. Unfortunately it is occurring in the midst of a tragic pandemic. Thank you all for participating. I wish everybody a happy rest of the day. I hope you will heed your Public Health authorities. Stay home. Stay safe. Save lives. From the sunday news programs we will hear from two governors with different plans for reopening their states, and the secretary of state mike pompeo on chinas role in the spread of the virus. First we will hear from dr. Deborah birx, a member of the. Oronavirus task force week california this past thousands of people were massing on beaches. Is that safe . If it is done with social distancing, yes. If it is not done with social distancing, no. I do not know that you can see the video. There was no social distancing which is one of the reasons the governor shut those beaches. Lets talk about a different issue because we are seeing governors opening up things like beauty salons and spas where people come into close contact. You are getting a haircut or massage. If both sides, both parties, wearing masks, is that safe . It is safer but we have made it clear that that is not a good phase one activity. The president made that clear when he discussed georgia. You know that is happening all of the countryht