Obviously, infractions were made, it was a felony. I think it is a problem and i think the sentence makes sense, but i will leave it up to the people in the Legal Community to figure that out. Gabby do you think he received a fair trial . Tim from my vantage point, yeah. But hes the latest in a series of Trump Campaign officials now facing prison time or in prison. Is this a problem for the president in this Election Year . Tim of course, any perception of people like that around you is a major problem. I think, what we have counseled the white house to do, you are seeing some of this, focus on the policy. Focus on what is going on in the economy, try to stick to one particular story about results. To the extent they do that, this wont be as big a problem, but if you are spending a lot of time talking about this instead of your actual record, it is a political drag. Let me turn to kate. Kate how would a pardon play into that . If he received a pardon, with that put things to rest or would that make it bubble it up even more . What would your advice be to the white house . Tim a pardon would be on the front page of every newspaper and every media outlet would run it for a while. I think ultimately how it would play long term politically, like everything in the news cycle right now, it would probably be a 24, 48 hour news story and a talking point in the campaign. Im not sure exactly how that would end in terms of where people go and vote. In november. Gabby. Gabby you just said earlier that Heritage Action is advising the president of focus on policy, talk about the economy. One of the phrases we have heard out of the Trump Campaign this election cycle is socialism takes, and capitalism creates. They think that that is a winning message in 2020. I just wanted to ask you if you truly think that is something that animates voters outside the conservative base and is able to shore up support with suburban communities, and demographics that are trending away from the Republican Party at the moment . Tim absolutely, weve done a lot of work in terms of polling in key swing states and key battleground districts. The socialism issue is a major drag for democrats, especially if you look at the big issue right now, and the big issue is where are republican suburban voters going to end up going . Are they going to stick with the president or will we have a similar situation to 2018 where we sagged a little with those voters . If you look at that, the one thing that absolutely puts them back on the map is nominating a socialist in the Democratic Party. There is just too much at stake, and when you look at the numbers , there was an nbc poll that came out a few days ago, it was asking people what the characteristics they most disliked about the candidates were. The top one was socialism at 65 . I think the democrats are really playing with fire here, because they would be smarter as a party to try to do it we are suggesting, as well, to just talk about issues. When you talk about issues, people are more interested in having that conversation and have a better chance, but if you are putting a democrat socialist at the top of the ticket, you put all of the suburbs, whether they are the philadelphia suburbs or whether it is des moines or whatever, they are back on the map. I think that is a Good Development for the president s chances. Michael bloomberg is not the nominee, but if he were, his Campaign Said he would spend 4 billion in a general election. Does that worry you . That amount of money in a campaign . Tim of course it is not insignificant, but it is very interesting. I dont think money plays a role in politics it used to play. I think increasingly people are skeptical of bigmoney campaigns. I think the era of carpet bombing a state or district with Television Ads dont make that making that the final difference in elections, i think that era is over. What matters most in american Politics Today is authenticity, and i think part of bloombergs problem will be that the money might actually work against him in that respect, because it wont feel authentic. Does he have a real Grassroots Movement behind him or is he buying his way toward election . It is not insignificant, but i dont chalk it up as much as some others would. Kate does his entry into the race undermine democrats message about wanting to be the party of political reform, wanting to do hr1, which was the first premier piece of legislation that House Democrats featured, which would do Campaign Finance reform and a host of other measures, does having this billionaire come in and get himself on the debate stage and enter the race like that, does that undermine the rationale for campaignfinance overhauls and things like that . Tim absolutely. I think it undermines this goes back to authenticity. I said earlier that nominating a socialist is bad for the party. I still believe that, but at least with sanders, there is a level of authenticity and real Grassroots Movement. He is a true believer in what the most progressive base of the party believes in, so he is a champion for them. There is a real relationship there. It goes both ways. What you have seen them do under pelosi in the house is try to legislate those values. So, at least in that way, that is authenticity. Bloomberg does not have that. And i think it is a real problem for the party. The other thing i would say about bloomberg is, i think what you are seeing is, his assumption is there is this Critical Mass of moderates in the democratic primaries that are ready to go and elect a moderate democrat, and i dont think that is there. Yes, some of them are being shared by klobuchar and biden to a certain extent, but there is no energy there. The other thing i think we are learning from bloomberg, which will probably be a fizzling out in the next few months, what we are learning is the real energy in the party is with the progressive hardcore base. Steve who do you think the nominee will be . Tim at some point, we have to believe the polls, right . At some point, you have to look progressive hardcore base. At what happened with donald trump. No one believes the polls with trump. Republicans were telling themselves over and over again that a certain senator would ascend, or for some reason trump would stumble, and then ultimately the energy was there and that was the same dynamic i am talking about. There was authenticity there. People looked at trump and thought, this is a guy it who is not a traditional politician, and he is definitely rough around the edges and he says stuff we dont totally agree with and is an imperfect vessel, but at least we think he is authentic in his desire to be someone who shakes up the status quo in washington, so i see the same dynamic playing out in the Democratic Party. I will not be surprised at all if Bernie Sanders is the nominee or they decide to tamp it down a little bit, they go with an Elizabeth Warren. I suppose there are scenarios where you have a convention where there is brokering going on, but if you just sit back and look at the statistics and look at the polls and look at the energy and look at the rallies, it is going to be one of those two. Gabby youve been involved with gop politics for several years now, and at the helm of Heritage Action, which has been on the forefront of the cultural wars in this country. I just wanted to ask you based on some of the rhetoric we have seen from the democratic primary debates and particularly senator klobuchars claim there should be a litmus test for future democratic president s to impose on Supreme Court nominees over abortion. Is that something you think republican candidates moving forward also need to adopt . That there should be a litmus test to determine whether Supreme Court nominees would commit to overturning roe v. Wade . Tim republicans have always issued a litmus test. And sometimes to this advantage of constitutional conservatives, who have seen some of our nominees go to the court and vote in ways we are not comfortable with. But i think that is the right way to be. I dont think you want to impose litmus tests on judges. I think that ultimately, what you want to do is do your best vetting possible, look at their case history, look at the way they reasoned their legal arguments, and make your best judgment possible. I dont think republicans are going to move toward a litmus test. What you see with the Republican Party it is a prolife party, no doubt about it, and im a proud prolifer, but you see a party that is big enough to allow other competing thoughts into the tent. So, we have a lot of that going on in the Republican Party and that is a strength for the party and when you juxtapose that with what you have on the left, which absolutely has litmus tests, especially in terms of political candidates, is there room for prolife political candidates in the Democratic Party . And i think the answer is no. Kate we actually had a story on that today, that remaining antiabortion democrats in the house are having hard time finding allies among various groups. I just wanted to step back a little bit. You were writing in 2010, 2011 about the rise of populism, and weve really seen that play out. You have seen it in the Trump Administration when it comes to trade policy and other matters like that. You see it in the rise of Bernie Sanders on the campaign trail. What is going to happen next . Is this populism going to continue and how would that play out in policy issues, or is this kind of reaching its end point . Tim i think the populism will continue, but i think it is going to begin to mature in a sense and i think the populism on both sides is going to begin to coalesce around ideas. As you mentioned, we have been involved in that populist movement for a long time. When we started Heritage Action in 2010, we were very antiestablishment and had a lot of fights with our own leadership in the Republican Party, and they were over these kind of populist issues, and that was the precursor to trump in many ways. That period from 2010 to 2016. And then trump comes along and i see an agent of change with, whatever you think of him, he is not establishment. He is here to shake things up. Then i think what is going to be really interesting is on the right and on the left, where do people in the future you see on the right some thinking on different policy ideas. I used trade as an example, and you are not seeing conservatives run away from the idea of free trade. People still understand the value of free trade, but you are seeing a more sophisticated thought process about it where you are really weighing all of the factors that occur in some of these trade deals, and thinking of other ways to make sure that people in this country get to take advantage of all that we have to offer. I think it should be a really interesting next decade because the next decade you will see on the left and right, people coalesce around policy agendas that might look a little different than they have in the past. Gabby when you say coalesce, do you mean bipartisanship . Tim no, there have been pivotal i think the right right now is, there have been pivotal moments in republican politics, the most recent was the reagan of the 1980s. In the reagan era the right did something that was really smart, which was think about all of the ideas that we have had and how they apply to the politics of the 80s, and fuse a Movement Together around that. You had conservatives, libertarians, social conservatives, and you had business conservatives coming together around an idea. That is the kind of stuff i am talking about, on the right and left trying to figure out the coalitions of the future. President trump gave a little President Trump gave a little snippet winning in 2016 of what that might look like in bringing a new cohort of voters. When he won wisconsin and pennsylvania and michigan, he won those states by bringing in workingclass voters, who had , many of them voted for , democrats in the previous election. By the way, 10 of Bernie Sanders voters in 2016 voted across the aisle for President Trump. I think that is what is interesting, how republicans are thinking of keeping that coalition together of being creative while sticking to your principles and not backing down. Thinking about how to keep those people in the coalition. Steve lets turn to some news , you are leaving Heritage Action about you. This spring to work with nikki haley, former u. S. Ambassador, stanford america, why the move . Tim it is a fantastic opportunity. Ive been with Heritage Action for a decade now. This organization is built for speed and they are going to do great. Nikki haley is someone i have admired for a long time. I think she has grit, and toughness, is principled and getting the opportunity to work for her is something im pretty excited about. It was something i could not say no to. Steve is she going to run for president in 2024 . Tim you will have to ask her. Steve what do you think . Tim i dont know. Excited about. I know she is going to be a strong policy leader for the years. Gabby is there a figure in the gop you see as a natural successor to donald trump . Tim i dont think so. I think that is being settled right now. Those of the conversations that are occurring. In truth, the gop right now is not talking about a successor to trump. Because people are focusing on getting trump reelected. I am sure that if he is reelected, the conversation becomes who is his successor, but there are so many good people out there, many who are qualified to lead and many of whom are learning the right lessons right now, thinking strategically about the future, so i think our bench is pretty deep. Gabby i want to go back to something you were talking about earlier, diffusion that emerged fusion,he 80s, the the Republican Partys realignment in the post trump era. Theres been a lot of discussion on the right over whether the libertarian wing of the party has consolidated power, gained too much influence in Republican Party circles and has essentially shut out a willingness to talk about social issues or issues important to social conservatives. What is your take on that . Is that an accurate assessment of the current gop . Tim i have seen some of that and seen it to the detriment for social conservatives. The interesting thing is when you look at populist moment we are in, i think there is a, there has always been an assumption in the Republican Party that you need to stay away from socialist issues. We know you have your principles on that, we know you have your values there, but dont run on those things because if you run on those things, you will end up losing elections. So, the social conservatives have kind of gotten elbowed into the back. I think there is a resurgence there where people are saying, no, values really matter. Am talking about authenticity, that is how you connect with people. The values that they share are as important to them as many of the economic situations around them. Not that the economy is not important. It is tremendously important, but i think there is room for in the future social conservatives to be a bigger part of what we are doing. And i think it makes good populist politics too. Kate i wanted to step over to immigration. Immigration is an issue you have worked on with Heritage Action. The Business Community has been saying the country needs more legal immigrants, whether it is hightech Seasonal Worker visas , they say to drive the economy, the u. S. Needs more immigrant workers. The Trump Administration during the trump era, Legal Immigration is down. Are you with the chamber of commerce on this or the Trump Administration . Tim im definitely more with the Trump Administration. I dont think this is rocket science. The reason this has become so hard is it is just such a political landmine. Both sides can demagogue the issue. Securing your borders, simple. Then you can have lots of conversations about if there are needs to be filled. I think the first thing you have got to in terms of the way youve got to look at it principally, the need has to be there. It cant be something that could be filled by an american worker. If it is something that could be filled by an american worker, that should be the priority first, but if there is a need, you can absolutely bring programs on board that will fill that need, if youve done the right stuff first, which is security and protecting your borders. Gabby if you were advising a republican president ial candidate in 2024 or down the road, what would you say they would need to do to consolidate the middle class gains that President Trump has brought in for the party, while also not alienating suburban voters . Is there a particular policy agenda or elements . Tim there are a couple of things here. One, the economy is important and the economy to the extent that the economy does well you need to sing that song over and over again. Second, immigration is something you can do and Immigration Reform im talking about immigration security. You can do this in a way that doesnt alienate suburban voters. In fact, we were able to work with the administration on one of our proposals that i think they got exactly right. We had done some polling in these swing states and found that the Biggest Issue people felt salient about was ilLegal Immigration, was not crime, was not culture, was not those negative things that you think about with it, but it was, what happens with social services that i need for my family and my neighbors and my Community Needs . So, schools, hospitals, things like that. One of the things the Trump Administration did was the public charge rule, which just jut just basically said, if you are going to come into our country, we want to make sure you have the resources to not be a net drain on welfare services. I think that is a better way to approach this rather than talking about crime and violence and all of this kind of stuff. Because that lends itself toward demagoguery and is a cultural flashpoint. So i was really proud to be able to work with them on that and , there is another set of issues that are just like bread and butter Kitchen Table issues. When you think about higher education, i think there is a huge opportunity, all the way k12, for the Republican Party to lap the democrats on this one. On the k12 side, it is totally School Choice. And you are talking about School Choice and vouchers, things like that, that allow people who dont have the ability to go and get a good education in their current Public School and go outside and get it. But at the higher ed level, one of the things that is a landmine out there right now. Everyone in this country understands that the fouryear liberal arts degree racket is a racket. And that the cost you pay for these colleges is way too high , and the return is not there, increasingly. And you have that occurring at the same time as you have a lot of jobs being unfilled right now, and they are middleclass jobs that pay really well, many of them in trades, but people arent there with the skills to fill them. I think the party needs to start saying, why are we sending all of these federal dollars behind students in the form of student aid to the schools which allow them to keep raising their tuition, which allow them to pour 80 of their money into faculty, instead of actually the students, when we could be saying, lets allow some of those federal funds to go to people who might be trying to pursue Vocational Training or Technical Training or things like this. That is something the party embraces. We should become the party of work. And the dignity of all kinds of work. Not just the work you get through a fouryear liberal arts degree, but any kind of work. And i think that is a big opportunity and when you juxtapose that against what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren want to do, which is basically to just bailout the entire higher ed racket through free college, and that doesnt work dramatically, and i think it will be a real backlash. Steve i want to go back to something you said earlier, that the Trump White House should focus on the results. So jobs, the economy, admittedly they are strong. But you look at roger stone, another Campaign Aide going to jail, the highest turnover rate of any president in his cabinet, and even supporters say the tweets are corrosive and dividing the country. So, what do you tell the voter who says, yeah, things are good, but i dont want four more years of this . Tim a lot of that will matter on who the democratic nominee is. I dont deny there are voters out there that say that. Ive seen the polling. I know this country is split right now. It is split between 46 of people who are going to vote for democrats no matter who the nominee is, and that number could come down if they nominate bernie or somebody like that. And the other part the numbers are Something Like 36 who are going to vote for the president no matter what, and there is 13 that love his policies and are willing to vote for the president , but may have reservations about things like you have mentioned. The task for the party is to go and talk to that 13 and say, look, the results you see right now, they are not guaranteed to continue. In fact, if the democrats are putting up a socialist, the economy is going to go the complete opposite direction. So that is what this comes down to, taking the case to those. Im not denying that dynamic exists, ive seen it, but there was a case to be made and there is a path forward here to ensure that these results continue on. Steve kate. Kate you were talking about working with the Trump Administration on the immigration matter. Can you give us a little insight into how policy comes together in the Trump Administration and how influential outside groups like heritage and others are in that process . Tim my sense of the policy people in the Trump White House is they listen to a lot of people and they take a lot of incoming, so they are listening to people on capitol hill, their allies on capitol hill, look at what the democrats are doing on capitol hill, thinking about how to respond, listening to outside groups, think tanks, Public Policy folks. And it comes into that organization and proposals get sent up the pipeline. From there, im not on the inside, so i dont know how exactly the decisionmaking process goes, but what i can tell you is i have been impressed as an outside person with how they have brought a lot of different people to the table. Ive been in many situations in the white house now where all sorts of stakeholders have come into a room i was in one meeting with the president where he had stakeholders on a certain was, i wont say what it but he had stakeholders from the left, the right, the middle, all sorts of different philosophies, and i was really impressed. Because what i saw there was somebody who was really sharp running the meeting and asking tough questions of even his allies. I walked away from that and said, that is really interesting. That is a sight you dont actually see as much from the president , but i have seen it and it is impressive. Steve weve got a minute left. Gabby steve talked a little about the impact of the president s on voters who are weighing their choices and 2020, i wanted to touch on the fact that bill barr last week came out and criticized the president s twitter habits, saying they may oftentimes impact his job as attorney general. Do you think that has been the case, and is there anybody inside heritage, which seems to have a close relationship with his administration, telling him you should stop doing this . Tim i dont think the president is going to stop tweeting. I really dont. When i saw bill barrs comments, the first thing i thought is, this actually does show that people who have gained the president s trust can be publicly critical. I thought it was interesting to see that. That was a good thing, and maybe the president will tweet a little less about what is going on in the department of justice because of that. Steve but, he hasnt. Tim yeah, you are right. He hasnt, but you are not going to stop the president s tweeting. I think the most important, and there is an asset there, too. There is a downside to it, but the upside is that he communicates with people in real time. So you take the good, you take the bad, and those in the conservative policy movement, our job is to make sure the good conservative policies continue to get enacted. Steve tim chapman is the executive director of Heritage Action for america. Soon to head over to stand for america with former u. N. Ambassador and former governor nikki haley. We thank you for joining us. Tim thank you for having me. Steve we continue our conversation with gabby orr of politico and katie accor. Your take away . Kate i thought it was interesting that he said the tweets are not going to stop. You look at a group like Heritage Action has a lot of influence into the Trump Administration and policy ideas , and even as much as they might want to turn off the tweets, it is not going to happen. Steve it seems to be the one issue holding the president back in polling numbers. Kate there is a whole issue of sort of character and president ial gravitas. And i think there are people who would say he does not have that character and it comes out in the tweets. I dont know if it is specific only to the tweets, but it is an unfiltered way of getting his message across and some people would like to stick in the filter a little bit more. Steve you talk to republicans on capitol hill. Off the record, what are they telling you . Kate they dont like to get asked about every single tweet. I think a lot of them have taken to this they dont look at them, they roll their eyes. Or whatever. It is been three years of what did you think about this tweet . What do you think about what the president just said publicly . So, i think it is been, in a lot of ways a distraction, but yet, it hasnt derailed a policy agenda, necessarily. It hasnt moved any republicans off of his team, if you will. Steve gabby, you covered the white house. It is a whole new era, because we have not seen any house briefings. How does this impact with they are doing in the administration, responding to what the president is saying on twitter . Gabby they dont. You are asking the white house what they think of a president ial tweet in the morning or over the weekend, they often times will just ignore those requests. They dont feel they have to justify what he is saying, whether it is an attack against an incumbent republican like mitt romney after the impeachment vote, or against one of the Democratic Candidates for president. It is just something they altogether avoid and i think that is unfortunate because there are a lot of things the president says, falsehoods on twitter that deserve scrutiny, deserve questions and white house officials dont want to answer. Steve with regard to the conversation with tim chapman, what was your take away . Gabby one of the things we have heard from tim, and heard from a lot of republicans lately is they want President Trump to run on the economy in 2020. Yet none of them have been able to explain how they can convince him to do that. Because this is something we heard in 2018 heading in the midterms. All they wanted the president to talk about was tax cuts, the gop tax reform bill, and the economy and yet, he focused on immigration. We did hear tim today say today he doesnt think the rhetoric in terms of Cultural Impact of immigrants and crime is helpful for the party to talk about and yet, those are the things trump often does talk about on the stump and at his campaign rallies. I guess the looming question is, ok, if you want the president to focus on those things, how do you make them actually do that . Steve it has been a week with a raucous debate on nbc, another schedule tuesday on cbs tuesday. South carolina and tuesday super tuesday on march 3. What will the democratic field look like after super tuesday, 14 states going to the polls . Kate . Kate i have to say, im not going to place any bets. Weve been covering the stuff for months now and we feel it is coming to the end. In reality, in some conversations i have had with nonpolitical people or seeing nonpolitical peoples posts, on facebook some people are just , starting to tune in. In about democrats, primary voters. They are just starting to tune in. They are talking about raising money or giving small donations to some of the various candidates who remain on the stage last night or this week. So, i actually think maybe we need to sort of wait it out and see what happens over the coming weeks, and maybe even months, because there are literally people who are just starting to tune in and that was their first debate they watched. Steve gabby, we will give you the final word. Gabby i think the response in wednesdays debate over the importance of pledged delegates was really telling. It is an indication none of us can predict what is going to happen if we have a convention where there are still several remaining candidates in the democratic primary field. I do think tim made the point polling is something we should be paying attention to. And right now, Bernie Sanders is on the rise, and if wednesdays debate was any indication, there is really nobody in the democratic field standing in his way. Steve gabby, we will follow your work at politico. Com. Kate, at rollcall. Com. To both of you, thank you for being on newsmakers. Tonight, on q and a. We will discuss notable speakers of the house. With Political Science professor, matthew greene. We have come a long way from sam rehberg, and dwight eisenhower. That the speaker in particular should be deferential to the president. That is not what we are seeing now. There is a way in which that is a sign of healthy, partisan differences. But, i think this is what troubles me, there are certain ways in which our elected officials are expected to share some common agreement on issues, or at least a sense they have these important institutional roles to play. Watch tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspans q a. Congress returns this week from the president s day recess. Tomorrow, the senate dabbles in at 3 00 p. M. Eastern. Week, the senate takes procedural votes onto antiabortion measures. Thehouseboats on tuesday, first votes expected wednesday. On the agenda, a bill that would ban the sale of flavored tobacco products