Transcripts For CSPAN Newsmakers Sen. Ben Cardin 20240713

Host from baltimore on cspans newsmakers, senator, thank you for being with us. Sen. Cardin its great to be with you. Thank you. Host and joining us with questioning here in washington, jason dick, Deputy Editor at roll call, covers capitol hill, and zach cohen, congressional reporter for the national journal. We appreciate you being with us. Senator, i want to begin with something that you told maryland media recently with regard to the impeachment, that its not how the parties do, but how the senate does. Can you elaborate . Sen. Cardin exactly. This is the senate. Its reputation is so much at stake here. The house has exclusive jurisdiction over the articles of impeachment. The senate has exclusive jurisdiction over the trial. Although well listen to the house managers and the president s lawyers, its up to the senate to conduct this trial, not the democrats, not the republicans to make points, but the senate has an institution to carry out a fair trial. And to me, this is our challenge. So ive said many times, we got to make sure she is a fair trial. We need to hear from those witnesses who have the direct information. We need to see the documents. We need to make independent judgments as to what the evidence produces, as well as whether this is an impeachable offense. We took an oath to be impartial. This is about the senate, its not about the democrats or republicans. Host as you know, your republican colleagues in the senate say they will not relitigate the case that was brought up by house democrats. Sen. Cardin senator mcconnell said that. I dont believe the Republican Party has said that. Senator mcconnell has been difficult on this issue. Hes been working with the white house counsel. I dont think thats the way it should have proceeded. And quite frankly, in prior impeachments, the senate has been able to get source information, witnesses to testify, documents produced that were not necessarily available in the house of representatives. Its our responsibility to get the information we need, so were not trying to relitigate, were trying to get to the facts. Host lets turn to zach cohen of national journal. Zach thanks for being with us. I want to turn to, back in september, you said President Trump was attempting to obstruct justice, refusing to abide by the constitutional anticorruption clauses, and flattening the most of the basic ethics and conflict of interest laws. To the oath you just mentiondd, how do you square those . Have you already come to a conclusion about this trial . Sen. Cardin zach, i think youre referring to the emolument clause. I raised that issue before trump took the oath of office when he was indicating he was not going to divest himself of his conflict properties, which i said was a mistake. I introduced a resolution in the United States senate to express that. I think on day one he violated the constitution under the emolument clause by continuing to own his properties and having direct conflicts with his office of the presidency. Thats not whats involved in the articles of impeachment. The senate cannot produce articles of impeachment, only the house. The two articles deal with the president s dealing with the president of ukraine in order to curry favor in the 2020 elections, and his alleged obstruction of the congressional investigation. So there are two issues that we have to judge. And no, i took an oath to be impartial. I will listen to both the managers and the president s lawyers, and hopefully the witnesses and documents that are relevant. Zach i think this is from september, and you were talking specifically about the house impeachment inquiry. I just want to clarify. Sen. Cardin about which conflict . The conflict, im not sure theres a conflict here from the point of view of his personal wealth. The conflict was his campaign. Its not really a conflict. The president is not allowed to use the power of his office to curry favor from leaders of other countries to get involved in in politics in u. S. Elections. Thats wrong. Senator, about the trial itself, we have seen some of the things that we were expecting and prescribed sort of pomp and circumstance with the managers coming in, senators being sworn in. Weve seen some restrictions come in. We can get to that later on the public and press access. But from a senators perspective, could you describe what youre expecting outside of these hours that you may be in trial mode from, you know, roughly 1 00 in the afternoon to 6 00 or 7 00 in the evening . What else is going on in the senate . Could you explain, for the publics benefit, too, that this kind of trumps all, does it not . This is it. This is the business of the day and the night. Sen. Cardin well, its up to the senate as to what business it will conduct during the impeachment trial. We do have permanent rules that deal with impeachment, and it indicates the impeachment trial is our top priority, and that we should be in session six days a week on the impeachment trial until conclusion, and it takes precedent over any other work of the United States senate. We can change that with 51 votes of senators. Weve already gotten some unanimous consents to conduct other business during the impeachment trial. So this week, this coming week, we will have an opportunity for introduction of bills and to deal with some committee hearings. So thats already been determined. So we can do other things. We know we have a privilege resolution by senator cain dealing with the authorization of the use of military force in iran. I am hopeful that well be able to take that up during the impeachment process because of the urgency of that issue. So we can do other business, but clearly the impeachment trial will be our primary focus. We will not be in session from Early Morning to late at night. I dont think thats going to be the case. I think we will have some time in the morning. We do need prep time. Well need time to go over the information as its been presented. So i think well get some time to deal with that. And, of course, we have other issues for certain that require our attention. Jason one thing that is going to be a little different is that the restrictions that were instituted by the senate, particularly in regard to the press, will be in effect throughout the duration of the trial. So are you concerned that just simply getting information about, you know, your priorities, say you do want to discuss the war powers resolution, which got sort of bumped into the trial schedule, does it just make it that much more difficult to talk to the press, because were being actually prevented from even following you, even if you want to talk to us, up escalator the up escalators and so forth. Sen. Cardin well, and i think those restrictions were overdone. I dont think we need all those restrictions. Well find ways for us to connect. Weve already been able to do that. As you know, the most popular place is on the basement of the capitol, where the elevators are. Thats pretty much open to the press and the members. We have to go through that area. So well have the opportunity to talk to the press. I would just caution all my colleagues that, yes, we can comment, we can talk about whats going on, this is not a traditional trial from the point of view that jurors would not want to talk to the press. But i would hope that we would recognize our responsibilities under our oath to be impartial, and that we recognize we need to give the house managers and the president s lawyers an opportunity to present their case and also hopefully to hear from the key witnesses and review the key documents. Yes, we can comment to the press. No, i dont think theres restrictions that were put in place were necessary. I would have liked to have seen a more open area there, because i think we know thousand handle the press and i think you know how to ask us questions. Zach before the senate, just before the trial began, there was a vote to pass the usmca, the United States mexico canada agreement. Was there any talk about delaying that, seeing as this was a major priority for the white house, especially on the eve of an impeachment trial . Sen. Cardin no, not at all. I think you look at the final vote, it was somewhere overwhelming, about 90 of the senate voted in favor of the new usmca, United States Mexico Canadian agreement. The president was going to sign it. Its time to move on with this. This is a major improvement over the old north america free trade agreement, nafta. From the people in maryland, its important. It opens up our poultry industry to much more business to canada and mexico. Its good for small businesses. Its good for government, labor, environment. Im glad we were able to move that forward. Host you were in the house during the bill clinton impeachment back in 1998. Democrats saying this is a political witch hunt. Now republicans are saying the same thing against the democrats. As somebody whos been through this process twice, do you think that this town has become politically toxic . Have you seen a significant change in the comity between the two parties . Sen. Cardin well, i can talk about the members themselves. My friends in the senate are both democrats and republicans. We do business together every day of the week. Were getting legislation done. Weve already gotten some bills passed of major consequence in this congress, dealing with the chesapeake bay. Weve gotten major bills done dealing with Foreign Policy issues. And with bipartisan working together, democrats and republicans. But i would be the first to acknowledge that under this administration, we have seen a Political Division like ive never seen in the United States senate or in the congress. When were dealing with fundamental constitutional responsibility such as impeachment, you really have got to put your party on the side and recognize we are talking about the constitution of the United States, and what we do here will have impact on the future of our country. So i would hope that we all back up a little bit and recognize that were carrying out a solemn constitutional responsibility. Host lets turn back to jason dick. Jason senator, as your former colleague, joe biden, might say, the senate trial is a big deal. And you do want to put aside politics and be solemn in your oaths. Its also crowding, though, into the political calendar in a way that impacts directly four of your colleagues who are running for president , Bernie Sanders, elizabeth warren, Amy Klobuchar and michael bennett. Obviously we dont know how long this trial will last, but is there a danger that some of your colleagues and some of the people outside in the political sphere are going to get a little antsy if this thing starts to drag into february 3, where the iowa caucus are and the following weekend in New Hampshire and then nevada and south carolina. I mean, at what point do people start thinking we need to get this over with so people can run for president . Sen. Cardin theres always there will always be terrible always be external events that occur that are inconvenient to our senate responsibilities, and i understand the president ial election is a major event. Dont get me wrong. But impeachment is a major responsibility, a trial for impeachment is a major responsibility of the president of the United States for the United States senate. That must take priority. So i think just going to put that aside. There are certain advantages that those four colleagues of mine had being a United States senator, but they signed up to be a senator. This is their responsibility. They need to pay attention. And they will to their responsibilities as u. S. Senators. So i recognize it may have an impact on the president ial nomination process. It will have an impact on the president ial nomination process. But thats the requirements of the job that we all signed up to do. Jason senator, you have yet to endorse anybody in that primary. Are you open to doing so before marylands april primary . Sen. Cardin well, well see. At this point im remaining neutral for a couple of reasons. First, i am the senior elected democratic official in maryland. We do not have a governor whos a democrat. And im trying to keep as much unity as possible among Maryland Democrats going into this election cycle. Secondly, we have one objective when it comes to president of the United States, and that is to elect a democrat in november of this year. Thats our objective, to get a democrat elected. I enthusiastically support any one of the individuals who are now trying to receive the nomination for the democrats. So at this point, my enthusiasm is for our candidates, not to any one specific candidate. Host let me ask about the length of the primary. In 2008, between Hillary Clinton and barack obama, it went through june of that year. Same scenario in 2016. How long do you think this democratic primary will go . Sen. Cardin its very, very difficult to predict. First of all, we have many viable candidates, and the way that the different primaries and caucuses allocate delegates, it is very unlikely that will one candidate will have overwhelming lead on the delegate count early in the primary season. And then you have the uncertainty of candidates that may not be on the early balance, early ballots, such as mayor bloomberg, and he may be able to be competitive in some of the later primaries that could be rich in the number of delegates. So its very difficult to predict how early this primary will be, this nomination process will be concluded. We also have a different structure in regards to super delegates. That could also have an impact on the nominating process. That is a long answer to tell you i have no idea when this will be determined. Historically, nominees went up to the convention, sometimes into the convention, without knowing who the nominee was going to be. Its possible this might be one of those years that it will be much later in the process before we know who the democratic nominee is. Jason senator, regarding witnesses in the trial, lets just make an assumption that youre table get some witnesses, to get that you are able some witnesses, youre able to subpoena somebody like john bolton, say, or mick mulvaney. That would seem to indicate, too, that the republicans might get some of their preferred witnesses. I mean, it would be a little odd, but its not unheard of that they would subpoena, say, hunter biden or joe biden, whos a candidate. Do you think that theres a risk of this getting so wrapped up in the political calendar that it becomes kind of a circus . Sen. Cardin i wouldnt think any member of the senate certainly not because your Party Affiliation that you want to have a witness that is not relevant to the allegations and the articles of impeachment to testify before the United States senate. So i think you have to look at relevancy. When you talk about, for example, mr. Bolton, he has direct knowledge of the conversations that took place. Weve already heard from third parties that have placed him at meetings in which the president was talking about it the demands talking about the demands for the ukrainian president as it relates to an investigation of mr. Biden and as it relates to a white house visit. And it would be important to hear from him. Im not exactly sure the relevancy of the other witnesses that you mentioned, but i would certainly want to hear from the president s lawyers as to why they would like to have that person testify or not, and then we would make that decision. But the witnesses should be relevant. We should have the documents first so that we can properly prepare for the depositions and the testimony. Zach we got a look into some of the outside counsel the president is bringing in for his team, a name familiar from the 19981999 impeachment saga, ken starr, who was the independent counsel who led the investigation. Alan dershowitz, whos, you know, kind of all over cable news and is a ardent president ial defender. And robert ray. So i wonder, is it already starting to nip into that area of theater, you know, that ken starr, you know, who prosecuted the last president who, you know, was impeached, is going to be part of this . Was there a little bit of chatter among your fellow senators about this selection . Sen. Cardin well, the president has the right to choose his lawyers. And im certain that some of these issues youre talking about were in the president s thought pattern when he selected his team. But remember, its not so much what the president s lawyers want to do or what the managers want to do, this is up to the United States senate. We have sole jurisdiction of the trial. And i hope that we will stay focused on trying get to the evidence to support the facts and the legal conclusions as to whether this is impeachable offenses or not. I hope thats where we get focused. And i hope that the president s lawyers will recognize that. Its interesting that ken starr, ken starr was very much in favor of having a broad number of witnesses in the investigation he pursued. So particularly those who have the direct knowledge of the factual allegations. So it will be interesting when that issue comes up whether hell even be at the trial table, because we know his prior positions in regards to that. Host zach cohen . Zach youve got a number of bipartisan relationships with republican senators. When you talk to them about impeachment, do you get a sense that they would be that they are committed to bringing in witnesses or at least open to the idea . Sen. Cardin quite frankly, we dont have that many discussions about impeachment for many reasons. Primarily, again, this is a matter in which every senator is going to have to make his or her own decisions. Ive had some. And i think they recognize that theres a senate responsibility here and that, yes, we certainly want to hear what the managers want, what the president s lawyers want, but ultimately its our decision, not theirs, as to the information we need, the evidence we need in order to make our decisions. So i am hopeful that we will get a consensus among the senators as to the documents and witnesses that are needed. Its clear to me that the house was prevented from hearing from key witnesses by the president s unprecedented attitude of not cooperating at all with the Constitutional Responsibilities of the house in regards to articles of impeachment. So we have a responsibility as the senate to say, look, for us to have a fair trial, we need to hear from the witnesses that have the direct knowledge of these factual allegations, and we need to see those documents. Im hopeful that well have democrats and republican senators coming together and saying we need to get that. Host as a member of the Foreign Relations committee, you were critical of the drone attack that killed that iranian general, and we now learned that 11 american soldiers were injured. Initially the president said no americans were injured. Your reaction . Sen. Cardin well, this was, again, the president to me exceeded his constitutional authority, his Legal Authority when he ordered the killing of the general. We dont cry at all about mr. Soleimanis death. He was a horrible person. He was responsible for the death of hundreds of people. His loss is no loss to any of us. But here we have in three years of this administration gone from a path of diplomacy to resolve our problems with iran in unity with our allies and with the support of russia and china to isolate iran, now the United States has been isolated. The path for diplomacy seems much more challenging. And just about every expert tells us its in our National Security interest to find a diplomatic answer to iran in the middle east and not to be engaged in another lengthy conflict. So i think the way the president has handled iran, not just with the killing of general soleimani, but the way that hes handled iran during his three years in office has been against our National Security interest. Jason regarding iran, things do seem to have cooled down a little bit, at least where they were a couple of weeks ago. Our european allies are trying to figure out some way to continue, you know, whatever talks could come up to get them back at the table, to get people back at the table perhaps to replace the iran deal, get something better. Is that feasible from your perspective . Is it still just kind of too hot to go there, or is this an opportunity . I mean, weirder things have happened in tenser times. Sen. Cardin ive had regular contact with our european friends in regards to the iranian situation. Ive talked frequently with my counterparts in u. K. And germany, in france. And i have urged them to keep the conversations to diplomacy with iran going forward. Europe has indicated that they intend to adhere to the nuclear agreement, the arms limitation agreement with iran where theyre not allowed to produce a nuclear weapon. And they were in compliance before the United States pulled out of the agreement. So we recognize that its going to be a challenge with the United States pulling out and imposing additional sanctions. But we are hopeful that we can preserve diplomacy. Europe is helping us in that regard. The best answer to resolve the iranian issue is through diplomacy. We do not want to start a war. A war will be very lengthy and costly, and where does it lead . We cant occupy, nor do we want to occupy iran. It is a circumstance where we need to find avenues to pursue diplomacy. Europe gives us the path where perhaps we can. Zach do you think diplomacy with iran can yield a new agreement now that President Trump has pulled out of the 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal that i believe you opposed at the time . Host Boris Johnson said the president should lead those negotiations. Sen. Cardin well, youre right, i opposed it, but once we were in it, my view was very much as long as iran was in compliance, it would be a mistake to the United States to unilaterally pull out and isolate america and jeopardize diplomacy, and thats exactly what happened. So i recognize that. I also hope we will have a different leader in america after the next election, so we are talking about a year from now. I recognize thats a long time, and we have to deal with the realities. Do i believe we can find a diplomatic way to deal with Irans Nuclear weapons and to deal with its other nefarious actions . I think we have to pursue it. Its much more difficult today than it was three years ago. Three years ago we had a path in regards to the Nuclear Issues in iran, and we could build on that to deal with their other activities, including the support of terrorism and their Ballistic Missile tests. Today the United States is in a much more difficult position. We do not have direct negotiations with iran. We have to work through surrogates and third parties. But i think we have to build on that, because thats in our National Security interest. Host do you have faith in the secretary of state, mike pompeo, to deal with these issues . Sen. Cardin secretary pompeo and i have different views as to how to conduct Foreign Policy, theres no question about that. When he was in the house, he was opposed to even negotiating with iran. He was in favor of using military action back then. So he and i have different views. To me, the diplomacy route needs to be put in high gear. We have to accelerate that. We have to have a surge in diplomacy. And i have not seen that from secretary pompeo. Jason are there any kind of active talks about getting back on the war powers resolution that senator kaine has sponsored, in which you mentioned a little earlier . Is that something that youre going to have to wait until all the opening arguments are made in the trial, or are there actual discussions about getting back on to that as soon as possible, given how, you know, volatile the situation could be . Sen. Cardin the resolution is privileged. Senator kaine believes he has 51 senators who will support the resolution. He believes that we have the support to pass this resolution. The resolution is very simple. It says basically that the president does not have authorization to use force against iran. He certainly has the right to defend america against an imminent threat, but he does not have the authority, and if he wants to use military force, he needs to seek authorization from congress. That is pretty much what the resolution says. It will be on the floor of the United States senate, and it may be privileged during the impeachment trial. Its not clear. Were waiting for the parliamentarian to give us a ruling. But we are hopeful, because theres need to conduct business during these next several weeks. We dont know how long the impeachment trial is going to go. That well get a consent between the Mitch Mcconnell and Chuck Schumer for an opportunity to take up this resolution within , i hope within the next week or two. Host senator, one maryland political question. A crowded field to replace your friend and former congressman, elijah cummings. Will you make an endorsement in that race . Sen. Cardin well, no, i will not make an endorsement in that race. I do not live in the seventh congressional district, but i have a lot of friends who are running. Elijah cummings, we cant replace him. Well have a congressman, but weve lost our real champion on social justice. But im pleased to see that we have a lot of really good people who are running for that. I look forward thats going to be that primary is taking place soon. We should have some indication who the next Congress Person will be. Host senator ben cardin joining us from baltimore, democrat from maryland, member of the senate Foreign Relations committee. We thank you for being with us on newsmakers. We continue the conversation. Zach cohen, the impeachment trial getting underway tuesday. What will you be looking for . Zach im going to be curious to see what the managers present. Weve had new evidence and new facts come to light since the articles were passed in december of last year. There was a Government Accountability Office Report that said there was actually a violation of the law that basically says the president has to spend the money that congress appropriates, and that report came out just last week. Ill be curious to see if managers incorporate that into their arguments, after the managers finish their process, it will turn over to the white houses defense. Host jason dick, you brought up the chief justice of the United States, john roberts, his role. Jason its fascinating, because the chief justice could the way that william rehnquist, the former chief justice, the late chief justice, conducted the clinton impeachment trial, he was famously quoted as saying i set out to do nothing and i accomplished it, something along those lines. The chief justice does have some leeway in terms of how to frame questions that are brought to him from senators. We could, there is the potential for an ugly fight if the chief justice doesnt like a ruling in some way and the majority leader doesnt like that and brings up a motion to overrule. That could be ugly. But i kind of doubt they will go there. I think it will be important to see, first on tuesday, what im looking at is exactly how this will be organized. This sounds very wonky, but the organizing resolution that they will vote on his want to tell us how late they are going to go in the day, whether they will go actually on saturday. I will believe it when i see it, that they will be six days a week. And also what sort of they can change, as the senator said, they can bring up anything they want if they have the votes and the consent, obviously. That, if they stay with the tone and solemnity that the chief justice opened the trial, we could see a very, very kind of situation where people may say that the senate is acquitting itself as well. I think that the chief justice is not interested in being embarrassed. He wants to make sure that he conducts it in a way that history, not just the people in the room, will judge him well. You said it earlier, this is probably going to be one of the first lines in history written about this particular chief justice. Host its a trial, but a political process. At the center of that, witnesses. What does senator mcconnell do . The organizing principle that jason talked about, this is something that House Speaker pelosi was negotiating about. They were hoping to have a vote up front on witnesses. Chuck schumer recently said that it sounds like they might try to force votes on witnesses anyway. This resolution essentially punts the decision to later in the trial, as was done in 1999 with bill clinton. It is yet to be determined whether this goes beyond opening arguments from both sides and the written questions. Jason not to hit the political calendar stuff so hard, but Mitch Mcconnell is running for reelection in november. He needs to show his state that he is behind the president. It is a very republican state in kentucky. His unfavorables have always been high, but he has always been able to win fairly handily, even when he doesnt have favorable numbers like you want in a campaign. I am guessing he will not do anything that gets him crossways with Republican Voters in kentucky. The challenge will be, will that play with the public and will the public perceive it as a fair process . Thats a needle that mcconnell has thread for his entire career. Zach a tougher needle for susan collins, a very different state, maine, then kentucky. Host we are out of time. Thank you both for being with us on newsmakers. Our live coverage of the president ial candidates and iowa continues monday. At 4 30 p. M. Eastern, senator elizabeth warren, followed by senator Bernie Sanders at 5 30 p. M. Watch our Live Campaign 2020 unfiltered coverage of the president ial candidates this weekend on cspan, online at cspan. Org, or listen from wherever you are on the free cspan radio app. Shopping and see what is now available at the cspan online store, including our allnew campaign 2020 tshirts, sweatshirts, and hats. Go to cspan store. Org and browse all of our products. Is the line for democrats. 202 7488001 four republicans. Four independent voters. Will you be watching . Is robert the phone burns from the washington post. You had a tweet the other day regarding the chief Justice John Roberts with a pledge to impartial justice. Thanks for being with us. Guest the potted plant line me