The interview is from the Richard Nixon president ial Library Oral History collection and was conducted by Timothy Naftali in 2008. When i ran in the fifth Congressional District mississippi, 8 of the people identified as republican. But if you study the internals, the majority of them were republican. I also knew they were going to vote for Richard Nixon by overwhelming numbers. I figured well over 80 , which is what happened. I was comfortable with them on an individual basis. I was comfortable with them philosophically. I thought a republican could win in mississippi. A lot of people did not think so. I remember when i called some friends and supporters they basically had said you will not be able to win. But events worked out. I was 31 years old. Just turned 32. As time went on, i could sense a change in attitude of the people. You are young, republican, what is this . By the end, they were saying i like what you are saying. You will be part of the nixon team. And i won by comfortable margin. Then, i came up here and wanted committee for fisheries. Like every freshman, i wanted to be on appropriations. They said maybe in 10 or 15 years. I think i probably requested what was the Commerce Committee that subsequently became energy and commerce in the house. They said even though you have any staff member, you are still a freshman. By the way, we have this fine Judiciary Committee. We see you are a lawyer. That would be a Good Committee for you to start on. I also had an interest in the rules committee. I knew as a freshman i probably could not get that. I find myself sitting on a committee with 37 other lawyers. One of the more measurable expenses i have ever endured, i might say. When you start on the committee, you dont have any idea this committee will be in the spotlight, do you . How could i have possibly known that would wind up being where we had the nixon watergate hearings and that i would be sitting there voting on articles of impeachment, and actually leading the argument against one of the articles of impeachment having to do with the transfer of his papers to the university and getting a tax consideration for that. I was stunned, dismayed, heartbroken, crushed, worried about the damage being done not only to a man i admired but to the presidency. Looking at the tv when he resigned, just sick. Now we have to go into purgatory. I apologize. After the saturday night massacre, there was a lot of pressure on the Judiciary Committee to get the investigation going. In the book, you write that you brushed it off as long as you could. I thought this was just a political gambit to try to get president nixon. I still admire him and looked up to him. Theought a lot of allegations, youre going to impeach him for bombing cambodia and giving his papers to university and getting a tax deduction, in fact, i knew it could be done because i had done it with other papers. I thought a lot of it was meanspirited, partisan politics. I sat on the democratic side in , andouse as a staff member i never was comfortable with them. Not only philosophically. Just their approach. It was a negative and meanspirited thing i did not agree with. I resisted across the board. I identified as one of the 10 hardhats on the Judiciary Committee. Not all republicans took that position. The guy that sat next to me was built point bill coyne. Both others started getting shaky on the articles of impeachment. I remember there was a runup of procedural votes before we got to the vote on articles of impeachment. I remember turning to bill and saying, please at least stick with us on procedural votes. He did not do it. He and i had a long relationship. Wound up in the senate, wound up being good friends. He always supported me in my leadership roles in the senate, partially because what we knew about each other from the past. I resisted all that. I was citing more with the congressman i admire very much, Chuck Wiggins from california, who went on to be a federal judge. Jersey sandlin from new and several others. Virginia,er from Carlos Moorehead was on the other side. Call from i got a a mississippi and working at the white house. I was in florida on vacation with the family. He said i think there is something you should read. Be even described it as a smoking gun. I got on a plane and flew back. He met me at the baltimore airport late at night. I read it by car light on the way back to washington. It was obvious at that point that the one article of impeachment for obstruction of justice would hold. I basically acknowledged i would support that one article of impeachment. I actually had one newspaper in ironically, the name of the newspaper was the popular vote democrat poplarville democrat that condemned me for not sticking with nixon. You wrote an article when the tape came out to say though you had voted against all three articles of impeachment, but you said when it went to the house, you would vote for it. That must of been very difficult. Very difficult. At that point, there were not but about two or three resisting. Did you talk to wiggins, sandlin, and moorehead . Did they come to the same conclusion as you . I cant recall that i specifically talked to each of them on that. I may have. What im not sure i did. I think i came to that conclusion on my own and probably wrote a statement on my own. Tell us about Lawrence Hogan and congressman railsback. They were interesting studies. Railsback tried to stick with nixon. With nixonlationship socially. Issue struggling with the and was more inclined than some of the rest of us to vote for the all of the articles of impeachment. Hogan from maryland was an interesting study. Off ak he started hardliner. Up as we gotoften toward voting on articles of impeachment. Im not sure he voted for the articles of impeachment. I think roy railsback had an influence on him. Let me ask you about john doerr. What do you remember of john and his ability to give you information . Not a lot except i had a negative reaction to him from the beginning. I was not a big fan of john doerr. Rodino . He was the chairman. Ran a fair hearing in that he gave everybody their chance to be heard. But it was obvious to me from that he intended to impeach him. Theo you remember seeing Watergate Special prosecutor handover what was described as a roadmap, a 120page document with all the information they had on the cover up, that was handed to your committee . I do remember that. He was from texas, highly respected, not thought of as a terrible partisan, more of a texas kind of democrat. I remember thinking at the time it was a pretty pretty devastating material he gave us. You had a very dramatic conversation with gerald ford that summer. Conversation,hat i think i talked about it in the book. Andere at a social event were out by the Swimming Pool having cocktails. It was during the process of the Judiciary Committee. I was making some statements about how bad it was. I remember him saying basically be careful what you say. I cannot remember the exact words. But dont get too far out on that limb. It struck me like it both of lightning a bolt of lightning. Im hearing this from the Vice President. What does he note . I have never what does he know . I have never forgotten that. Let stop for a moment. It almost took my breath away. I thought about it and remembered it over and over again as events unfolded. You still voted against. I think the vote came after. It did. Im sure they did. This would have been probably in midjuly. I think the votes on the articles came after that in late july. It had not gotten as deep into the weeds as it did after he told me that. But it was the first warning i had from anybody to be careful. Wedid you have a group have interviewed senator cohen on the group that worked together. Did you meet with congressman wiggins . Yes. He was the one i really looked to because i thought he was the best lawyer on the committee. I thought he was our most effective speaker. I made it a point of talking to people talking to the down the line on the republican side. I was beginning my instincts as a whip trying to hold our ranks together. I was having trouble with the guys up the line for me a little bit. Even to a degree, hogan was getting to be a problem. Our Ranking Member was hutchinson from michigan who was solid as a rock from our standpoint but clearly not the leader of our site. Wigginsers were clearly and sandlin. You write about agnew in your book. You get out on a limb about agnew. Yes. I had to. A tripleen a trip with in thecan Staff Members late 1960s. They did not like agnew even then. Too,were mad at nixon, because they did not feel he was conservative enough. Nixon created epa. He was a moderate on a lot of subjects. They were unhappy. I was a democrat arguing with republicans in defense of spiro and agnew agnew in nixon. I had no idea what he was engaged in. I was shocked at what happened. But pleased jerry ford would be selected to be Vice President. That was the first time that article of the constitution was used. I actually voted in support of jerry fords selection to be Vice President. And by the way, had to do it again later with nelson rockefeller. Though, right oh, right. Describeook, after you your reaction to president nixons resignation speech, you write that this was a constitutional crisis and i had contributed to it. What did you mean by that . I had been on the Judiciary Committee. In some respects, i thought maybe i had not asked the right questions. I also had put out a statement saying based on what i had learned that obstruction of ,ustice was a legitimate charge and i felt badly even about doing that. Here is a guy who had an influence on my decision to run helpful in my was winning and that i looked up to as the president. And i wound up having to sit in judgment of him and eventually having to say i would vote for an article of impeachment. I felt devastated by that. I wondered if i would ever get over it politically. I did not know how it would play out in my district. My district had been 84 had voted for nixon. As to a mixed reaction how they reacted to watergate and his resignation. It was potentially going to be a real political problem for me. One of the things i have said, and im not sure i put it in my book, it was certainly an interesting and trying experience. Years, ite next 35 was all easy. Nothing was more trying and more disappointing than that experience. I went through a lot of things over the years, including the impeachment and trial of William Jefferson clinton. I read those chapters. That sounded pretty trying. Very trying. I was always trying to find a way to deal with our constitutional responsibility. More in terms of trying to deal with the constitutional questions, deal with the scheduling, deal with how you set it up, how do we get through it in a timely way and come out where you could still do some things for your country. The wayid not drain me the nixon matter did, partially because i think i was a lot older and had a lot of experience under my belt. Yes, i did almost have a revolution in my own caucus. I dont mind getting in trouble by commissions. Missions. The caucus did not agree with some of the ideas are put withher i put together the best minds in the senate. I never felt personally as devastated. In this case, i was trying to get through the process. Peopleccused by some that if you wanted to, you could have removed them from office. I knew at the beginning, we were not, because i was a vote counter. I had been a whip in the house and senate. I had been leader for several years. I knew how to count votes. I knew the votes were not there to remove president clinton from office. Howas always a question of, can we get the facts without demeaning the institution in a time that was reasonable but that does not go on for months and months . And then on we get through, to be able to say we did our job the best we could and lets move on. I felt we achieved that. I felt i did the best i could as leader during that difficult process. Wayd not feel the same after the next matter. Nixon matter. It was so much more emotional for me. Maybe because i was 32 were 33 and had never seen anything like that or dreamed anything like that would happen. By the time the clinton came around, i had seen just about everything. You said you thought there were the votes to impeach nixon but not the votes to impeach clinton. What did that mean . Well, i just think in the there would have been enough votes to vote for the impeachment of the president. The majority of the Republican Congress have come to the conclusion he made mistakes or broke the law and it was going to get through the house. In the senate, you have people Close Friends of nixons that went to him and basically said the jig is up. And this is going to sound partisan, but i never thought there were enough democrats in the senate that would vote to remove bill clinton from office no matter what he had done. I looked at them individually. I counted them repeatedly. I listened to what they had to say. There were a few signs early on. I think tom daschle was very uncomfortable with all of that. Joe lieberman made some speeches that were pretty tough. One of the ones i was watching bobreaction was barber burr. When he started signaling where he was, i knew it was over. They were no democrats could go to bill clinton and say to him what that group of republican senators did and said to Richard Nixon. Trouble,hen you get in i have learned over the years, it is better to be a democrat. Republicans will shove you over the cliff if you make a mistake. Democrats will surround and protect you. Lets step back for a moment. There will be some students who watch this 25 years from now. Please compare and contrast the constitutional crises of clinton versus nixon. Are they the same seriousness . I voted for articles of impeachment of clinton. I would have voted for one on. I do think it was more of a constitutional crisis with nixon than there was with clinton. Maybe it was the times. Breakin andthe the illegal aspects of it. Maybe it was what the tapes revealed in terms of his and the effort to cover it up in several different ways. For what ik i voted thought was the right thing with clinton on the articles of impeachment. Most people, if you lie to a grand jury, that is a crime. People have been removed from the federal courts for lying to a grand jury about a crime that you were found innocent of. I felt like he did not tell the truth there. Were, ithe differences do not know why you would but one iste these, about human relationships, sex, if you will, and the other is about breaking the law in terms of Something Like a serious obstruction of justice. Nixon matterk the and the timing, the vietnam war, all that had gone on, was part of the atmosphere we were still dealing with. You write in your book that this was a watershed for you. , because the next chapter is on reagan, that this pushed you toward reagan in some sense. Yeah, it did. I supported jerry ford because i thought jerry ford did a good job coming in with the circumstances he came in with. I will never forget his first state of the Union Address in , i am a ford, not a lincoln. I thought that was very good. Im not necessarily topoftheline. I was not elected to this office. I was selected and confirmed. Uy inm not a fancy g these media times. It was an ongoing thing humbl ing thing. Reinforce the faith of the people in the government. I thought he did the right thing pardoning nixon. Because of the circumstances he came in under, because he was the incumbent, and because i had a relationship with him on a personal basis, i supported him for election as president in 1976. But my heart was really with reagan even then. But i felt like ford deserved a chance after what he had been through to try to get it in his own right in four years. After four years, i was very anxious to get on board with reagan. I thought we needed reagan. I thought it gave me a chance to make up for what i felt i had to do for president for. I committed to him early. Like december of 1979. By the spring, i was his chairman in mississippi. I was excited about that. I thought he was what we needed at the time. It also gave me a chance to salv e my conscience for what i have done in 1976, even though i endorsed and i tried to be helpful, i did not go to the convention because i could not stand the thought of all the i knew would happen at the Republican Convention in 1976. In your book, you give the impression that you might have switched the mississippi delegation. The vote was 1716 in favor position. D if i had been there and voted my conscience, i probably would have switched that vote the other way. What did you mean in the book when you said that your watergate judiciary express was a watershed . Profound so many effects on me, both in terms of what i was exposed to and the disappointment, but the learning i went through with how the media conduct itself. It really showed me the partisan the ugly sidess, of congress, too, quite frankly. It made me a tough partisan for a long time. I became a partisan warrior in the house as a republican and republican whip. I was a loyalist and considered myself a regular tenant, but i was a republican lieutenant. I was a hardnosed republican. I did not respect the democrats, a lot of them. I developed quite a dislike for them in the house. 15 or 20e probably years to get over that. I did not get over it until i got in the house. Still thinking very much as a partisan warrior in the senate. Moved over to the house in 1988. I saw a lot of things in the house i did not like. Then i started trying to change it. As the years went by, when you get in leadership positions, you can be a partisan warrior and get nothing accomplished or you learn how to work with people of both parties. You learn how to begin to forge a bipartisan coalition. You learn how to reach out. Years, mynton attitude had changed somewhat. Moment in myfining political career was at first two years in the nixon impeachment hearings. What is interesting is you do mention your disappointment at the smoking gun tapes. I wondered if that also had did. I obviously was disappointed and really upset at what happened and what i was afraid it would do to my country. It made me not cynical, but it always made me make sure when i was told something in the washingtonrena or in of its ferocity veracity. I have a lot of sayings and anecdotes i collected over the years. One of them is, in washington, it is always about Something Else. , the reasonans is they are telling you they are doing something is probably not the real reason. It is probably Something Else over here. The current debate about the automobile situation is a good example. Some people say it is about the workers or you are opposed to to bail out but it is about who do you represent . The gentleman who called you on july 31, was it Jean Ainsworth . Yet. Had been Administrative Assistant to a democrat. We were very first very fast friends. He was with me at the luncheon. The day i officially converted to being a republican. There were moments he was with me that day. Work ound up going to he wound up going to work during the Ford Administration. Hard, he was the one that they tasked to call me and say, you need to be aware of this. He was working for bill timmins at that point . No, i guess it was the nixon administration. I jumped over the Ford Administration but you are right. That is really you know, i got to remember my dates and people. 36 years ago. Is there an anecdote we have that you would like to add . Yeah. I kept my relationship up with nixon over the years. For hisadmire him leadership. When reagan was going to send troops into granada, i was not sure this was a good idea. I called nixon. Whip for the the republicans in the house. I called president nixon. He took the call. I said i dont know much about what is going on here about this heart of the world. Is this the right thing and this part of the world. Is this the right thing . He said yes. I am for it. I put out a statement and he immediately very supportive of the effort. Come occasionally to member meetings. Or events. I would remember when i was 1988,d to the senate in he had done a fundraiser for me. Yacht in new york harbor. I had sent him up copy of a picture with my wife and with him on the boat. Elected i got from him after the election the picture of the three of us with the statue of liberty in the background with a note on it, congratulations. All of those that were elected, i think you have the best chance of rising to leadership. By the way it really struck me at the time. Until he got in poor health, i would periodically call and seek his advice. It has been a while, but why did you have doubts about granada . I didnt know anything about what was going on. I didnt know why. Sureember i just wasnt direct military action was really called for. Even though i am a republican and had been supporting the vietnam war over the years i learned, dont just jump out there when military action is involved. Take your time and check it out a little bit. I think that was it. I wasnt sure why that was the right move. Didnt know a lot about the region. I figured he would and he did. When irancontra happened, did you use your watergate experience to give counsel to the Reagan Administration . I probably did. I am sure whatever advice i gave was probably along the lines of, be careful. About what you say and what you do. Dont underestimate this. Bring in strong people. I was very pleased when howard baker agreed to go in and close things out. The first six years of reagan, we had one almost every legislative battle even though we were a small minority throughout the 1980s. The beginning of 1987, the. Heels started to come off in retrospect i think about 1988, he was showing some of the what he had to deal with later on. I was in some of those meetings, irancontra was talked about and i was very nervous about it. Liked the fact he brought in some really senior people to get him through that last year without disgrace. We had an opportunity to interview Vice President cheney. Mississippi,rip in did that help you years later when he would be Vice President and you were in the senate . And hemember that remembers it fondly. Of course he served as chief of staff to gerald ford, got to know him. What a great job, this very young man from wyoming. And then a year or so after that, two years, he wound up getting elected to the house. Then been in the house by for six years. I was very impressed with him and developed a friendship with him. By the 1980s we were in the leadership together. In,ife always loved live and loved lynn and we went to wyoming, snowmobiling and skiing. It was a real friendship during that time. Served for eight years together. And then he was my successor as the whip. A 100 record of winning every issue while he was the whip. They never had a single vote. He went on to be confirmed as secretary of defense. The relationship continued and it does to this very day. We were with them last monday night and we are good friends aside from all of our political activities. Lott, thank you for your time. Joining us on the phone is anita kumar. She covers the white house for politico. Walk us through what you expect from the white house and the house to make rats before the hearing gets underway tomorrow. House democrats before the hearing gets underway. Flex when they put out the document about the meeting, they let, give us a hint. Which lawyers d