Meeting will come to water. We will proceed to the five minute questioning. I want to recognize myself for five minutes. First, i want to clarify something for the record. Wanted to clarify something for the record with respect to witness who testified on saturday, and that is mr. Sandy, he is a career official with the office of management and budget, and he is today reviewing his transcript, an opportunity that we give all of the witnesses before their transcript is released to make sure that it is accurate and correct. As his deposition was only taken on saturday, and this the soonest that we could arrange this. And we did inform the minority yesterday that if they wished to use any of the questioning from mr. Sandys deposition, we would do sond a take the excerpts even prior to the witness going through it, and they chose to not take advantage of that opportunity, but this is the far more significant point, and that is he is not the top official at the office of management and budget responsible for releasing foreign assistance. Those individuals are named vaught and duffy. Both of those political appointees have been subpoenaed to testify and both of those political appointees have refused. In fact, as the deposition will make clear when the transcript is released at a certain point mr. Sandy was taken out of at least one significant part of the process, but that transcript is going to be made available when he can complete the review and redact the official information from it. I wanted to ask a few questions and for our staff, because of the expanded round i had time to get through much of what i wanted to ask you, mr. Ambassador, but with respect to the statement, you are going back and i mean you and others ambassador volker and others going back through the ukrainians to figure out what statement they would have to make to get the meeting, correct . Correct. They understood that they would have to make the statement publicly in order to get the meeting . Correct. And similarly, you testified that pretty much everyone could put two and two together and make four to understand that the military assistance was also conditioned on the public announcement of the two investigation, correct . That is my presumption. You put two and two together and you got four. Yes. Right. And so you are capable of putting two and two together, and so are the ukrainians and that i can put two and two together, as well, and they understood that there is a hold on the Security Assistance. Theres testimony that they understood that in july or august, and it was without a doubt understood when it was made public in the newspaper, and they understood that the Security Assistance was held up, right . I dont know when they understood it, but presumably they did. Well, certainly once it was public, they understood that the Security Assistance was withheld . Once it was public, yes. I assume so. And that is one of issues brought up between the pence, and zelensky and in warsaw . I think that zelensky asked the question open ended like when do we get the money . So they understood that they didnt have the money yet, and it was approved by congress and there was a hold, butyearold cot no give them an explanation . No, i could not. And so if they could not put two and two together, you did it for them, because you told them that in warsaw that they were going to need to make the Public Statement likely to get that aid released . I said that might presume to have to be done to get the aid released. Because we have a lot of argue mentation here sh argumenttation that they didnt know, but the ukrainians if they had not put two and two together to make these statements they were not going to get the aid, correct . Yes. Mr. Nunes. I yield to mr. Ratcliffe. Ambassador sondland, i am going to try to quickly move to summarize all of your communications with President Trump as it relates to the inquiry, and of course, you can correct me if i get it wrong. On may 23rd, you had a Group Meeting that included a what you called the vanilla request about ending corruption involving ukrainian oligarchs, correct . Correct. On july 25th, you called President Trump to say that you were on the way to ukraine, but nothing of substance occurred in that call . Correct. And on july 26th, you had a fiveminute call at a restaurant that you did not originally remember, because according to statement this morning said did not strike me as significant at the time, but once refreshed, you recall that the primary person was a rapper called asap rocky. Correct. And so reading from your deposition, you called President Trump and asked, what do you want from ukraine and he responded, i want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want zelensky to do the right thing and do what he ran on. And what he ran on was fighting corruption, correct . Correct. And then lastly on october 2nd in a random inperson meeting that you had an event for the finnish president , you ran into President Trump and advised him that you had been called to testify before congress, and he said to you, good, go tell the truth. That is correct. And that is the entirety of your recollection of the direct communications with President Trump about these matters . I may have had another call or meeting or two, but i, again, i wish, mr. Radcliffe, i wish i had the record. But this is what you recall. So stop me if there is anything sinister or nefarious. A vanilla call, and im on the way to ukraine, and fiveminute call that was not significant, but the primary purpose was to discuss a rapper, and then a call where the president said i want nothing, no quid pro quo and i want zelensky to do the right thing and i want him to do what he ran on and go tell the congress the truth. And anything sinister or nefarious about that . Not the way you present it. And that is the truth the way it is . Yes. And the reason that is important is because none of that is hearsay, speculation or opinion. That is direct evidence. Ultimately, if this proceeds to the senate, that is what they will care about unlike this hearing which is based on the speculation, and presumption and opinion. This is direct testimony and direct evidence, and to that point, none of that included evidence about the bidens and none of that included evidence about military assistance, because President Trump mentioned either of those to you, correct . That is correct. All right. So going back to the july 26th call, because it is going to be a spectacle tomorrow, you didnt remember it, because you did not strike it as significant at the time, and is that fair to say that if the president of the United States was asking you to do or say anything improper or unlawful that would have been significant to you . Yes. And if that call was part of a bribery or extortion scheme that you were a part of as the democrats have alleged, youd remember that as significant, wouldnt you . I was not a part, and i would have remembered. I understand that. I agree with you. And lets turn to the quid pro quo, because it has been reported in the papers that this is blockbuster testimony today about quid pro quo and new evidence. To be fair to you, ambassador sondland, according to your statement today, as you say on page 14 and as you testified previously, this is your opinion that there because quid pro quo, correct . The 2016 wreburisma, excuse the 2016 election and burisma in return for the white house meeting, correct. And so you have shared that before, and to that point to be clear again on the part of it that relates to military assistance though, you dont have any direct evidence from President Trump about that part of . It is the two plus two part of the equation, part of the presumption . That is correct. All right. And you understand also that others disagreed, and yesterday we heard from mr. Morrison and ambassador volker, and they testified that they did not see a quid pro quo, and you understand that . I understand that is what they said. And reasonable people could look at all of this and come to different conclusions, correct . Correct. I yield back. Mr. Himes. Thank you for testifying, and in your Opening Statement you said that mr. Giuliani demand that ukraine make a Public Statement to announce to the public about a server, and investigations that you knew were important to the president. That last is important, no conditionality and no modifiers and mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States, and mr. Giuliani communicates in colorful terms, and what did mr. Giuliani say to you to say that he is is expressing the desires the president of the United States . Mr. Himes, that was before i was in touch with mr. Giuliani directly and this came from mr. Volker, and others. So mr. Volker told you that he was and subsequently when yow the transcript of the july dwiefbth conversation, you put it all together, and yeah, this is the desire of the president of the United States . After i saw the july 25th. Right. Other thing that is interesting here, the theme of your testimony today is that everybody knew and signed off which is a little different from what weve heard. Weve heard from others that your effort was irregular, shadow Foreign Policy, characterized as a drug deal. That was not a democratic characterization, that was the National Security adviser of the United States charactering it. You have said the secretary of state was not only aware but that he applauded you, good work, keep banging away. The secretary of state if this had been irregular, he would have put an end to it, and he he did not . The secretary of state was taking into account the totality of what i had been working on, you know, globally and saying youre doing a great job, including this. Right. So he was aware of what you were doing, your doing a great job includes this . Yes. He was validating this rather than saying it was irregular . We thought it was in the center zane why do you think the secretary of state thought that . Why did he think why did he think this was a worthy thing to do when so many senior people including the National Security adviser thought it was a drug deal . I dont know. Youd have to ask him. To your knowledge, did he have communecations with the president about this . I have no knowledge of his communications with the president. Okay. Let me take you to the july 26th call that weve talked a little bit about. You basically havent disputed the mr. Holmes characterization of that report although perhaps the mention of biden you dont recall that. Im actually pretty confident well get a trans script of that call. A conversation in public between a high profile ambassador and the president of the United States will be the top target for many Foreign Intelligence Service us. Because its pretty sensitive stuff because this information could be used to embarrass the president or leverage public officials, my guess is were going to see the transcript. Our people are pretty good. If others have it, we will see this. Until then all weve got is your recollection and the testimony of the other people there. So im curious about your frame of mind. This statement, the ambassador sondland agreed that the president did not give a fig, not the word used, about ukraine. Is that a statement you might make . Do you believe that the president doesnt give a fig about ukraine . Are you counselor are you referring to the call or any conversation . So mr. Holmes recounts, ambassador sondland agreed that the president did not give a fig about ukraine. Fig was not the word used there. And im asking you whether its plausible that he might have heard that because im asking you whether you believed that the president does not give a fig about ukraine . I dont i think thats too strong. I think that based on the may 23rd meeting, the president was down on ukraine for the reasons mentioned and would need a lot of convincing, and thats why we were pushing so hard for the meeting between the president and president zelensky. We thought once the two of them would meet, his impression, stock about ukraine would go up. What about this, ambassador sondland replied that he meet quote unquote big stuff. Thats what you meant by big stuff. We dont have the straitranscri. I suspect we will. Do you believe the president really considers big stuff to be that which benefits him . I dont recall saying benefits him. Imp asking whether you recalled. Im asking whether its plausible you said that, im asking what you believe right now, the president doesnt give a fig about ukraine and cares about the big stuff that benefits the president . Do you believe that now . I really cant opine. Im not asking for your opinion. Im asking for your beliefs. I dont understand your question. I want to answer your question. I just dont understand it. Let me try one more time. Okay. Do you believe what is alleged that will you said on this phone call, that the president cares primarily about stuff, the big stuff that benefits the president . Is that a belief of you . I dont believe the president said that to me on the phone call. I was talking about a sap rocky and he mentioned investigations. I dont know i dont know why youre the time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. Con oeway. I yield six minutes to mr. Jordan. I thank the gentleman for yielding. Ambassador, when did it happen . What . The announcement . When did president zelensky announce that the investigation was going to happen . Your Opening Statement, as i testified previously with regard to requested white house call, white house meeting, the answer is yes, there needed to be a Public Statement from president zelensky. When the chairman asked you about the assistance dollars you said there needed to be a public announcement from zelensky. When did that happen . Never did. Never did. They got the call on july 25th, the meeting on in the white house but in new york on september 25th, the money on september 11th. When did the meeting happen again . Never did. You dont know who was in the meeting . Which meeting are you referring to . The meeting that never happened . Who was in it . You know how the people that werent. You know how zelensky announced it . Tweet it . Press conference . Could you know how that happened . You got all three of them wrong. They get the call, the get the meeting, they get the money. Its not two plus two. Its zero for three. Ive never seen anything like this. You told mr. Castor that the president never told you that the announcement had to happen to get anything. In fact, he didnt just not tell you that. He explicitly said the opposite. The gentleman from texas just read it. You said to the president of the United States, what do you want from ukraine . The president , i want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want zelensky to do the right thing. I want him to do what he ran on. What did he run on, ambassador sloond . Transparency. And dealing with corruption, right . Thats right. Mr. Castor raised another important point. Why didnt you put that statement in your Opening Statement . I think you said you couldnt fit it in, is that right . Said we might be here for 46 minutes instead of 45 minutes. It wasnt purposeful, trust me. What wass it wasnt . No. Couldnt fit it in a 23page opener . The most important statement, the president in a direct conversation with you about the issue at hand and the president says, what do you want from ukraine, mr. President . I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want this new guy, brand new guy in politics, his party just took over, i want zelensky to do the right thing, i want him to run on and do what he ran on which is deal with corruption. And you cant find time to fit that in a 23page Opening Statement. Do you know what a quid pro quo is . I do. This for that . Right . Looks to me like ukraine got that three times and we there was no this. We didnt do anything. Excuse me. They didnt have to do anything. Ive never seen anything like this. And this is this is when the call came out, you all remember this, when the call came out, everyone said were going to, quid pro quo. That was what was in the call. Of course, of course that didnt happen. Remember what they complaint said . Remember what the memo said of the whistleblower . This call was frightening, scary, all those things . None of that materialized. None of that materialized. I yield back. Mr. Sewel. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to dig a little deeper in this quid pro quo. Did you not say in your Opening Statement and in previous testimony in closeddoor hearing, that you thought there was a quid pro quo . I thought the quid pro quo was the white house visit in return for the 2016 dnc server and burisma investigation. So when you heard announcement. When you heard burisma, you did not see that as code for biden, the bidens . I did not. When did you even know that . Is your testimony that you only realized that burisma included the bidens when the readout came out in september 25th . My testimony wasnt specific as to the date because i dont recall the date. It was very late in the game, though. September . I dont recall the date. So if i told you that the Legal Definition of bribery was an event of offering, giving, slitsing or receiving of any item of value as a means of influencing an action of an individual holding a public or legal duty, do you believe that not only was it quid pro quo but it was bribery . Im not a lawyer and im not going to characterize what something was or wasnt legally. You also said in your Opening Statement that secretary perry and yourself as well as ambassador volker worked with giuliani on the ukraine matter as at express direction of the president , is that right . Thats correct. You also go on to say that we did not want to work with giuliani, simply put, we played the hand that we were dealt. What did you mean by that . And more importantly what did you think would happen if you did not play that hand . I think what youre asking me is, well, you asked it. I did ask it. What would happen if we didnt . It was very fragile with ukraine at the time. There was no new ambassador, the old ambassador had left. There was a new president. Thought it was very, very important to shore up the relationship. In fact you actually said, did you on to say, we all understood if we refused to work with mr. Giuliani, we would lose an important opportunity to cement relationships with the United States and ukraine. So quote, we followed the president s orders. Did you see it as a directive . I saw it as the only pathway to moving forward on ukraine. So you would say that the thaefrts mr. Giuliani was undertaking became a part of the formal ukraine u. S. Policy . I cant opine on that. All i can tell you is the president wanted us to communicate with mr. Giuliani which is what we did. But you went on to say in your opening testimony that the suggestion you engaged in irregular or rogue diplomacy is false. So if in fact what giuliani was okay and proper, which is what you said, initially you all thought that what he was doing was not improper . We did not think it was improper. When i referred to the fact that i was not engaging in rogue diplomacy, by definition, that would meant that i would not have involved the state department and the white house. Youre saying that everyone in the chain of command knew about giulianis efforts to try to get the investigations into burisma and to you know, im just trying to figure out what you thought you were actually opining to . The president directored us to work with giuliani and the leadership and the state department were knowledgeable as was the nsc. Whats interesting is ambassador taylor testified he knew nothing about it and clearly he would be in the chain of information if he was the ambassador to ukraine. At the end of the day, sir, with all due respect, youre the ambassador to the european union. Why would he not o know about it . I dont know. He said there was a regular and irregular channel. He should have known about it. Although you said that you did not want to work with mr. Giuliani, you in fact did work with him . Thats correct sbl and do. U and do you think that the essence of what he was trying to achieve was accomplished . I dont know what he was trying to achieve. You clearly had to have known, sir. If you think that this was going down the center lane as what you said, it was clearly important that we work with mr. Giuliani to get what the president asked for, because it was a directive and an order, surely you must know whether or not mission was accomplished . Well, i know what mr. Giuliani communicated to us. And you thought that that was totally fine . Did you really think it was okay can i answer your question . Sure. You asked what mr. Giuliani was trying to achieve. No. I asked whether you thought it was right for mr. Giuliani to want to accomplish the efforts that he was involved in, which was to get them to investigate burisma and the 2016 election, as you said. All i can testify to is what i know that mr. Giuliani told me directly or ambassador volker and others that was related to me. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Turner. Ambassador sondland i want to walk through some of the portions of your testimony. Because sometimes you seem to make direct connections and sometimes they seem to be dead ends. I kind of want to clear up what are the dead ends and bhar the direct connections. Yesterday ambassador volker, who i consider to be very talented and a man of integrity, and i believe you do . I do. He testified that the president of the United States did not tie either a meeting with the president , a phone call or any aid, to investigations of burisma, 2016, or the bidens. That the president did not do that. And youve testified that the president did not tell you that he tied them either, correct . I did testify to that. Although when ambassador volker and i were working on the statement and negotiating with the ukrainians, it was clear to ambassador volker that a meeting would not happen without the burisma in 2016. That was very clear to ambassador volker. How do you know that . What did he say to you . He says that was not clear. He says he was working on that, he knows that thats what the president wanted but he didnt have this as this was a yierks . Requirement . I strongly disagree. It was absolutely a requirement. What about the aid . He said that they werent tied . I didnt say they were con clusively tied either. I was presuming it. The president never told you they were tied . Thats correct. Your testimony is consistent and his is consistent, the president did not tie aid to investigations . Thats correct. He also testified that he spoke to giuliani and giuliani did not relate that he was tying on behalf of the president or on the president s behalf, aid, and giuliani never said aid was tied to investigations. The question i have, for you is, did you ever have a conversation with giuliani that did not involve volker . Your testimony is a lot of wes and uss. Did you ever have a separate phone call that giuliani told you the aid was tied . Volker says that wasr that never happened . I did have a few conversations. I dont recall how many because i dont have the records. With mr. Giuliani directly when mr. Volker wasnt available. And did giuliani say to you what were you going to say . I dont believe i testified that mr. Giuliani told me that aid was tied. See, this is part of the problem, ambassador sondland. I want to walk you therough thi. Youve said everyone was in the loop. Hold on a second. Ive listened to you today as a lot of people. Not only are your answers somewhat circular, frequently youve contradicted yourself in your own answer. The Text Messages and emails you put up there, kurt volker put them up and has a completely different understanding than you. Im alittle confused as to how everyone is in the loop. If giuliani didnt give you an express statement, it cant be you believe this from giuliani. Is donald trump your friend . No, were not friends. Do you like the president . Yes. Okay. Well you know, after you testified, chairman schiff ran out and gave a press conference and says he gets to impeach the president of the United States because of your testimony and if you pull up cnn today right now their banner says sondlond ties trump to withholding aid. Is that your testimony . That you have evidence that donald trump tied the investigations to the aid . I dont think youre saying that . Ive said repeatedly, congressman, i was presuming. I also said no one told you . Giuliani . Mulvaney . Pompeo . Nobody else on this planet told you that donald trump was tying aid to these investigations, is that correct . I think i already testified. Answer the question. Is it correct . No one on this planet told you that donald trump was tying this aid to the investigations . Because if your answer is yes, then the chairman is wrong and the headline on cnn is wrong. No one on this planet told you that President Trump was tying aid to investigations, yes or no . Yes. So you really have no testimony today that ties President Trump to a scheme to withhold aid from ukraine in exchange for these investigations . Other than my own presumption. Which nothing. Thats what i dont understand. Do you know what hearsay evidence is . Its when i testify what someone else told me. Made up testimony is when i presume it. Youre presuming and giving them the evidence that theyre running out and cnn is saying youre saying the president should be impeached because he tide aid to investigations and you dont know that. Correct . I never said the president of the United States should be impeached. Nope, you have left people with the confusing impression that you were giving testimony that you were not. You do not have any evidence that the president of the u. S. Was tied to aid. I yield back. Mr. Carson. Thank you, chairman. Ambassador sondland, i really want to better understand mr. Giulianis role in carrying out the president s demand for investigation. On may the 23rd, during a meeting in the oval office to discuss the future of the u. S. Ukrainian lations, President Trump told you and others to quote talk to rudy. Do i have that right, sir . Correct. Mr. Ambassador, did you listen to the president and talk to rudy, sir . Did i talk to rudy . Why eyes, sir. Yes. What did you understand to be mr. Giulianis relationship to mr. Trump . I understood he was the president s personal lawyer. What did you believe mr. Giuliani was doing in ukraine for President Trump, sir . I dont know. Ambassador sondland, in august of this year, u. N. Ambassador volker spoke with mr. Giuliani about a draft statement to be give to zbloelensky. It was mr. Giuliani who suggested in fact insisted that the statement include specific language about burisma, correct, sir . Correct. And he insisted that the statement include the mention of the 2016 elections. And mr. Volker transmitted this message to a top ukrainian official, right, sir . Correct. Mr. Ambassador, and this statement was part of the zli deliverable that President Trump wanted, correct . Correct. To your knowledge, sir, was pushing the ukrainians to investigate burisma 2016 or the bidens part of some official state department . I never testified that we were pushing anyone to investigate the bidens. I said burisma. You were involved in ukrainian policy, right, sir . I told you what my role was which was quit limited and focused. Was it your understanding that ukraine policy should involve investigations into americans or debunked conspiracy theories . What i testified was that in order to get president zelensky a white house visit, mr. Giuliani conveyed the notion that President Trump wanted these announcements to happen. Of course it was not. It was a part of the president s political agenda. And it was done to benefit the president personally and politically. Were you following the president s orders, mr. Ambassador . I was following the president s direction to speak with mr. Giuliani. Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman, i yield back. I thank the gentleman for yielding. Want to point out a couple things ambassador in response to my colleagues. My colleagues seem to be under the impression that unless the president spoke the words, ambassador sondland, i am bribing the ukrainian president , that theres no evidence of bribery. If he didnt say, ambassador sondland, im telling you im not going to give the aid unless they do this, that theres no evidence of a quid pro quo on military aid. But unless, ambassador, youve given us a lot of evidence of precisely that conditionality of both the white house meeting and the military assistance. Youve told us, have you not, that you emailed the secretary of state and said that if these investigations were announced, the new justis person was put in place, that the ukrainians were prepared to give the president what he wants, and that would break the logjam. Youve testified and showed us documents about this, skru not . I have. The logjam youre referring to includes the logjam on Security Assistance . Correct, as my presimgs. And we also have seen and you testified that you have also seen ambassador or rather acting chief of staff mulvaney himself acknowledge that the military aid was withheld in part over the investigation into 2016 that youve talked about. You referenced that as well, correct . Correct. Now they also seem to say that, well, they got the money. The money may have been conditioned but they got the money. Yes. They got caught. They got caught. Now they still dont have the white house meeting. They made no statement. They got no meeting. The statement on the investigations was the condition to get the meeting. They didnt make the statement. They got no meeting. But they got caught. Youre aware, arent you, ambassador, that two days before the aid was lifted, this inexplicable aid was lifted, congress announced it was investigating this scheme, youre aware of that, arent you . I am now, yes. Dr. Win strop. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to address something, a claim that you made this morning. Claiming that republicans deny russian attempts to influence our elections. That is false and you know it. In this Committee Time and time again we all agreed that russia has tried to influence american elections as far back as the soviet union. I wish you would quit making that comment. Yesterday we established with mr. Volker something quite obvious. More than one country can try to influence our elections. See, mr. Schiff, we didnt agree with your russian collusion narrative, the coup attempt that occurred in conjunction with members of the if, bi, dog, foreign sources, something you have con vooenlt ignored as chairman of the intelligence committee. But in this process today im interested in facts. Im not a prosecutor. Or a defense attorney. Im not an attorney. Like mr. Turner. You have used the words presume, presumption, presuming, some form of the verb presume repeatedly today. You said that was the problem mr. Goldman, no one ever told me the aid was tied to anything. I was presuming it was. You see, in mathematic fact, two plus two does equal four. But in reality, two presumptions plus two presumgss does not equal one fact. The president did tell you, no quid pro quo. Thats a fact. And another fact, no quid pro quo occurred. This time id like to yield to mr. Conway. Mr. Chairman, id like to enter into the record a Washington Post article from today headlined shifz claim, receive three pinocchios, meaning we all know what that means. The interpretation would be two interpretations, one that my colleagues would argue they were trying to protect the whistleblower, an equally valuable and credibility intermtation, theres something to hide. This unlevel Playing Field that, main tainds that unlevel Playing Field and the advantages that gives them. Now the chairman also announces at every hearing he will not tolerate, and i agree with him, any witness intimidation, threats, issues of trying to bully a witness. Ambassador sondland, have you, your family or your businesses received any threats or reprisals or attempts to harm you in any way . Many. Could you give us an example or two . We have countless emails apparently to my wife. Our properties are being picketed and boycotted. Lets explore that one. Our own colleague, congressman from oregon, has in fact called for a boycott of your hotels in oregon. Im assuming he believes that that will harm you to the point that you will then be bullied into doing whatever he wants done. My colleagues and i know using the word bully and him in the same sentence is a bit over the top. But he intetended to harm you and your businesses. . Thats my understanding. And his call gave rise to demonstrations in front of your hotels made customers have to weve in and out of the the demonstrators . Theyre going on as we speak. The words are, better put by a couple of others. Congressman, your responsible to hurt a homegrown business that supports hundreds of jobs in our local economies . Shameful. Out to be an outrage. Theres a lady name ellen car mikal said we are saddened to have our thousands in peril. The attack on our employees is unwarranted. I couldnt agree more. Mr. Bloom nour should not be using the vast influences that we have to bully you and your businesses into harm the huns or thousands of employees that operates in your business by trying to take business away from you to force you into doing something that they wanted you to do, which testify, and youve done that. But thats a shame. Im hopeful that my colleagues will join me in shaying, mr. Blm nour you shouldnt be using your influence to try to bully and threaten a witness before these proceedings. Thats just wrong. I look forward to the response and i yield back. Thank you, congressman. Miss speir. I was somewhat humanored by your request that mr. Blum naur not bully to get something done when all were talking about is the president bullying to get something he wants done. But having said that, id like to clarify one point about the whistleblower protection from the article that mr. Conway just provided. The law reads, expressly restricts the inspectors Generals Office from dice closing whistleblowers identities. The Inspector General shall not disclose without the consent of the employee unless the Inspector General determines that such is unavailabavoibl du the course of the investigation or made official to the department of justice responsible for determining whether a prosecution should be undertaken. Unquote. That appears to be the lone statutory description on disclosing an identity amicable only to the inspector Generals Office. We found no court rooulgz rulings on who they have a right to anonymity. Said it was nonetheless a best practice to avoid disclosure of the ukraine prissel blowers identity given the concerns about retalcation. Mccul ok said weve stepped into bizarroland when senior policy makers are trying to yank a cia employee into the public spotlight in retaliation for making a whistle blowing complaint, especially when they are Credible Threats to that employees personal safety. And i dont know why our colleagues on the other side of the aisle . Yield . No, im afraid i only have three minutes and i have some other the end does go through that and says three pinocchios in spite of that. The president of the United States has five pinocchios on a daily basis, so lets not go there. Ambassador sondland, in your deposition, you lamented, i was truly dispoined that the state department prevented me at the last minute from testifying earlier on october 8th, 2019. But your issuance of a subpoena has supported my appearance here today and i am pleased to provide the following testimony. So it is clear that the white house, the state department, did not want you to testify at that deposition, is that correct . Thats correct. And since then, you have on numerous occasions during your Opening Statement today indicated that you have not been able to access documents in the state department. Is that correct . Correct. So you have been hampered in your ability to provide testimony to this committee, is that correct . Ive been hampered to provide completely accurate testimony without the benefit of those documents. In terms of your conversations with the president of the United States, what percentage of your conversations were about ukraine as compared to your other duties . I dont recall. Well, youve only had six conversations or seven conversations with the president , you said. So about ukraine, i think. So youve had many other conversations . Oh, yeah, about completely unrelated matters. How many conversations have you had . I dont want to give you a number because its going to be wrong if i dont have the records. Is it less than 20 . Its probably in that range. All right. Would you say that delay in military aid and the lack of a meeting in the white house works to the benefit of russia . Repeat the question again, please. Would you say that the delay in military aid to ukraine and the reluck tans to have a white house meeting has a benefit to russia . I think it could be looked that way, yes, looked at that way. Im going to speak very briefly about code. When Michael Cohen was before the Oversight Committee he was asked, you suggest the president sometimes communicates his wishes indirectly. For example, you say, quote, mr. Trump did not directly tell me to lie to congress. Thats not how he operates. It would be different, he said the nice he doesnt give you questions. He doesnt give you orders. He speaks in code. And i understand the code because ive been around him for a decade. So do you think that the president was speaking in code when he would talk about wanting investigations . I dont i cant characterize how the president was speaking. Every conversation ive had with the president has been fairly direct and straightforward. All right. With that i yield back. Mr. Stuart. I have a consent request. You may state your request. D. O. E. Responds to ambassador sond landss comments before the house attributable to the secretary of the press secretary ambassador sondlands testimony today misrepresented both secretary perrys interaction and with rudy junialey and direction he received from President Trump. Secretary perry spoke to giuliani only once at the president s request. No one else was on that call at no point before, during or after the phone call did the words biden or burisma ever come up in the presente presence of secretary perry. Again, i ask that that be entered into the record. Without objection, although i would note that they have refused to come and testify under oath. The American People expect a lot of things out of politics. Arguments, protesters, wee see that, clash of prisonples and ideas, they would like to see some compromise. But i think something they expect above everything else, fundalitial, they expect there is a sense of fairness about it. And i want to read part of a text i received from someone that i have tremendous respect for. Just a few hours ago we wrote, crafting a story to hurt another human being can never be right. The means of detroig and hurting another individual just does not justify the end and politics does not give anyone free pass to destroy other people. Now, you can say a lot about the treatment of President Trump over the last few years but i think one thing you cannot argue is that it has been fair. There were those calling for his impeachment literally before he was gnawiinaugurated. For two and a half years we were told every day he has betrayed our kraent, is a russian asset, has committed treason. Accusations we know now are not true and which we never had any evidence to support that. He was accused of obstruction and now here we are impeaching the president over well first, quid pro quo, until we found out that didnt hold very well with focus groups. And then it was bribery until virtually every witness before us said they had no evidence of bribery. Now its extortion. Again the American People expect some fairness. When nancy pelosi before she has seen a shred of evidence and announced he has betrayed the American People, National Security, without seeing any evidence, again the American People say, well, what is fair about that . So the question before us now is again extortion, thats the latest version of the charges against the president. Im not an attorney, it sounds serious, i had to look it up, what it means. It means obtaining money or property by threat to a persons property or loved ones. Im going to read you a couple quotes from president zelensky and then ask you a question. First from a ukrainian press release, donald trump is convinced the new government will be able to quickly improve the image of ukraine, complete investigation of corruption, inhibit between ukraine and the u. S. Does that sound like hes being bribed or extorted in that comment . As i testified previously im not a lawyer either and i dont want to characterize any legal terms. I really dont. Thats fine. I think most people would read that and say that doesnt sound like hes under severe pressure. Ukrainian president zelensky told reporters during a conference with donald trump that he was not pressured by the u. S. President. Again, i was not pressured. He used another time. There was no blackmail. I would ask you, do you think he felt like he was being extorted by the president based on these commence . I really think thats for the committee and congress. You know what . Its really for the American People. I agree. And the American People arent stupid. And the American People can hear that and they can say, i dont think he was under duress. I dont think he was being extorted. I dont think there was an exchange of a bribe. And i would conclude with this last observation. It is common for our National Policy to withhold aid for various reasons. You know thats true as an ambassador, is that not true . Thats true. Its frequent, isnt it . Thats correct. It is a policy. President bush did it. He suspended military aid to 35 countries. I bet that helps his political standing back home but i dont remember anyone suggesting we should impeach him for it. President trump did it last year in afghanistan over corruption. Pakistan over much the same thing. No one suggested we impeach them for it. This is a common occurrence in internation international relations. It is hardly an impeachable offense. Time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. Quigley. Thank you, sir for being here today. There are things we can agree with our colleagues on, things we can disagree. I can agree with my colleague that we should turn over all the documents should be turned over. Plo ambassador i think you agree that it would have helped your testimony, helped you understood that the state department, the white house hasnt turned over a single document. The white house the president s phone call conversation. Millions more out there. On that we can agree. On others we can disagree as particularly it relates to the whistleblower. It distresses me because i begin to wonder about the motivations. In the final analysis, the way i look at this is, if we are investigating an arson, you all would indict the person who pulled the fire alarm. That persons squlob job is done and we have seen the smoke and the fire. Whatever the whistleblower did doesnt change the president s actions. Doesnt change the president s own words which are in our testimony or in our body of evidence. It doesnt change mr. Mulvaneys own words. It doesnt change the body of evidence here. All it does is put this person at risk. Back to the documents and what you know, and clearly, mr. Ambassador, you seem to have your memory jogged by documents. Lets talk about may 23rd and see if this one helps you. Senator johnson in referencing the may 23rd meeting in his letter, sir, says, i had no recollection the president saying that during the meeting. It is entirely possible he did. Because i do not work for the president. Similarly did not register with me. He says, i also remember sondland staying behind to talk to the president as the rest of the delegation left the oval office. Sir, do you recall this later conversation and what you and the president discussed . I do. And what was that . Just again recapping what was sort of a freeforall conversation and i wanted to tie down what we agreed to do and what we didnt. And in that subsequent he reinforced talk to rudy . Talk ta rowdy. Did he go into more detail . No. It was a short conversation. The second part . Yeah, to reconfirm that the three of us would be working on the ukraine file. Yeah, and so on. Back to rudy in this seemingly contradictory passage, messages here. You now recall that prerequisite mentioned in the july 10th meeting, that when you were having this discussion, the first meeting in john boltons office, sir, that you referenced that there was a condition . I believe someone else testified that i raised that, and i didnt dispute that testimony, that i said its my understanding that in order to get this visit done, there needs to be an announcement about i dont know if i said investigations or said specifically burisma and 20 sure. But in your opening you mention at the very same time that apparently was there a meeting with Rudy Giuliani and the message you got was underscored very concerned about what luts senk oe told them, that according to rg, Rudy Giuliani, the z potus meeting will not happen, which is not condition, its not going to happen. Your understanding of the difference here . I think what youre saying is this meeting i was talking about in my Opening Statement was apparently a meeting that Rudy Giuliani was having at the same time at the same time in ukraine unbeknownst to us. But hes saying something different. Hes saying its not going to happen. Theres no notice in here its conditioned in any way. Well, that was ambassador volkers point. This was an exchange with ambassador taylor and volker. Ambassador volker is saying, dont let other people speak for the u. S. Government. That was his point. If rudy is following the directions and hes saying what hes saying here, and youre also following directions, right, and youre saying its conditioned, whos given you the instruction todays say what youre saying . Thats why we thought it was problematic to work with Rudy Giuliani. What who did you work with . Did you have conversations with the chief of staff . With secretary copompeo . Are you talking about in the july 5th meeting . Yes. Ambassador volker, because he was the one in touch with mr. Giuliani, not me. You had no direct conversations with mr. Mulvaney or secretary pompeo to make this statement . Only the texts and emails ive already reviewed. Thank you, my time is up. Miss stephany. Thank you for your service. I also want to thank you for your recognition in your Opening Statement of your hard working staff. Mr. Sondland, you testified that you never received any direct confirmation or specific information as to why there was a hold on aid. Thats correct. And in fact you testified quote, President Trump never told me directly that the aid was conditioned on the investigations, end quote . Thats correct. You said, quote, never heard those words from the president , correct . Correct. Instead, you testified that in your september 9th call with President Trump, the president said, quote, no quid pro quo. I want nothing. I want nothing. I want president zelensky to do the right thing. Do what he ran on. End quote. Is that correct . Thats correct. And the fact is, the aid was given to ukraine without any announcement of new investigations . Thats correct. And President Trump did in fact meet with president zelensky in september . He did. And there was no announcement of investigations before this meeting . Correct. And there was no announcement of investigations after this meeting . Thats right. And youve been very clear when chairman schiff has asked you broadly about investigations, youve corrected that to say specifically your understanding of investigations are investigation into the 2016 elections and investigations into burisma, is that correct . Thats correct. And are you aware that during the obama administration, the u. S. Partnered with the uk and ukraine on an investigation into the owner of burisma as part of ukraines anticorruption efforts . I became aware of it today during the hearing. Other witnesses have testified, but yes. And in fact, the obama administrations state department was concerned about the potential appearance of conflict of interest with hunter biden serving on the board of burisma because they raised this as they were preparing ambassador yovanovitch, are you aware . Im not. She testified in the open hearing and closed deposition. And ive asked most of our witness this is and every one has said yes. I want to ask you this today. Do you believe that hunter biden, having a position on the board of burisma, has the potential appearance of a conflict of interest . I dont want to characterize Hunter Bidens service on the board. I dont know enough. You disagree with every other witness that has answered yes, there is a potential appearance of a conflict of interest . Well you asked if there was a conflict or an appearance. My quote was the owe teshl appearance . I didnt hear the word appearance. Clearly its an appearance of a couldnt flikt. Clearly it is. Again this is something that every witness has answered yes to or agreed with it could have a potential appearance. And yet we are not allowed to call hunter bide tone answer questions in front of this committee. Thank you again for your truthful testimony today. And i yield back. Thank you. Mr. Swalwell. Ambassador sondland, you were told by the president and others to not show up. You showed up. I think that says a lot about you, and i think history will look kindly on you doing that. But there are consequences to that, and just a couple hours ago, President Trump was asked about you, and he said, i dont know him well. I have not spoken to him much. This is not a man i know well. Is that true . It really depends on what you mean by know well. We are not close friends. No. We have a professional, cordial working relationship. And in that working relationship he knows who you are . Yes. And he has spoken to you often . Whats often . Well you said at least 20 times . If thats often, then its often. And you donated a Million Dollars to his inaugural committee, is that right . I bought a vvip ticket to the inauguration. Thats a lot of money, isnt it . Its a lot of money. And after that, the president makes you ambassador to the european union, eventually the ambassador to ukraine is removed, and as you told us in your deposition, you become a central figure as it relates to ukraine. Thats a pretty big responsibility, right . Well, i dont know that i said i was a central figure. I was one of several people who were tasked to work on the ukraine file. And would you ever in that big responsibility take any actions that were not authorized by President Trump . Well, by President Trump or the leadership in the state department. Were you ever hauled into to the leadership of the state department for any actions you had taken around your work on ukraine . No. As to Rudy Giuliani, on may 23rd, the president told you, talk to rudy. You talked to him a couple times. As you told us in september talked to the president a couple times. Did the president ever say to you, stop talking to rudy . No. Did he ever say, dont any longer talk to rudy . No. On ukraine, you said that you were playing the hand you were dealt. President trump was the dealer, wasnt he . President trump was what . The dealer . In your metaphor you were playing the hand you were dealt, the dealer is President Trump, is that right . Ill recharacterrize your question by saying we followed the directs of the president because that was the only pathway to working with ukraine. On page four of your testimony, you said, given what we know, given what we knew at the time, what we were asked to do did not appear to be wrong. And you would agree now, ambassador, knowing what you know now, what you did not know at the time, there are some things around ukraine that were wrong . I agree. So lets take out any leveraging of Security Assistance over the ukrainians and a white house visit. Would you agree that it is wrong for the president of the United States to ask the leader of a Foreign Government to investigate the president of the United Statess political opponent . Yes. Would you agree that in addition to making that request for an investigation, leveraging a visit at the white house, that a Foreign Government leader desperately needs, is also wrong . Leveraging in what respect . A meeting at the white house. If they need that to show their legit macy to their people, that that would be wrong . To be candid, every meeting at the white house has conditioned placed on it. Ive never worked on a meeting there that doesnt have a host placed. But if it is to investigate a political opponent, that would be wrong . Yes. But making announcements or investigations per say, no. And if you asked a Foreign Government leader to investigate your political opponent, leveraged a white house meeting and leveraged Security Assistance in this hypothetical you woo would agree all three are wrong . Yes. You before becoming an ambassador worked as a businessman, and worked own a lot of deals . Correct. Involving Million Dollars of dollars . Correct. You work for a guy who wrote a book called artful deal . I do. And state Department Employees have told us they dont want to make Legal Definitions around what occurred with the white house meeting being leveraged against the investigations, but you plainly call it a quid pro quo, is that right . I did. And one final hypothetical. If someone walks through those two doors wearing rain boots, a rain coat, and holding an umbrella with raindrops falling off of them, do you have to see outside its raining to presume or conclude it might be raining outside . I understand your hypothetical. I yield back. Miss heard. Thank you. Mr. Ambassador, good to see you. Good to see you. My colleagues in california basically immi that youve been supportive of President Trumps campaign. Is that correct . Im having a heard tiard tim hearing you. My colleagues in california indicated that you were supportive of the president s campaign, is that correct . I actually donated to the committee in order to secure tickets. So let me ask you this question. Did you participate in or overhear any conversations about the potential information collected by ukraine on the bidens collected by ukrainians on the bidens would be used for political gain . Did i personally hear that, no. Did you participate in any conversations when this was being discussed . Not that i recall. In your statement on page five, you sid mr. Giulianis reques requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president zelensky, and you also rekourchted your conversation with President Trump where he says, i want nothing and no quid pro quo. How do you reconcile these two statements . Theyre hard to reconcile. I we were working along mr. Giulianis direction for a period of time. We still didnt have a white house meeting. Aid was now held up. There were lots of reasons being given by various people as to why those werent moving forward. And i finally got exas perated by receiving ambassador taylors latest text, and i just picked up the phone. I got through to the president and said, what do you want . Sure. Are you aware of any specific conversations mayor giuliani had with the president between your may 23rd conversation and september 11th, 2019 . I dont recall if mayor giuliani, when i was directly talking to him either through a Conference Call or on a direct call, whether he quoted from the president or said i just talked to the president. Most of the communications, as i said, went through ambassador volker initially. So i dont want to opine on what may or may not have been said. On page 11 of your testimony, you said, mr. Giuliani had been communicating with ukrainians without our knowledge. Im assuming youre believing you, mr. Volker and ambassador taylor. Which ukrainians was Rudy Giuliani communicating with . I was specifically referring to this text that i received from am babassador volker where mr. Giuliani was apparently telling who specifically . Mr. Lutsenko, the old prosecutor. Do you think mr. Huloouts se koe has any gravitas woingt the zelensky regime . I dont know. Ultimately got fired . I think so. So we know Rudy Giuliani has met with mr. Yermak on the fringes of meeting i think it was in spain. Do you know any other ukrainian official within the zelensky regime that mayor Rudy Giuliani was meeting with . I dont know any others. Had you had any other individuals that came to you and said hey, i just got off the phone with giuliani. What the he will is he talking about . I dont recall. Would that be normal . In all your interas with heads of states and governments, if there is some element of the u. S. Government that they have spoken to, isnt it usually they come in, talk to the ambassador, clarify what that statement is . Is that a true characterization of how that works . I think thats a reasonable possibility. Things work all kinds of different ways these days. When you met with president zelensky after the july 25th phone call, you met him on july 26th, did the investigations or joe biden come up in that meeting . I dont recall joe biden come up. Was there any frustration expressed to you by the phone call the day before . No, everyone said it was a good call. Is in your opinion your interactions with president zelensky, is he a straight shooter . He impressed me greatly. Thats why i wanted to get he and President Trump together as soon as possible. When he makes express statements, you tend to believe him . With my limited interaction with him he seems very honorable. Thank you, mr. Ambassador. I hope you make your plane back. Thank you. I yield back. Entirely appropriate to politicize u. S. Foreign policy. Ambassador, how often did you speak or meet with mr. Mulvaney . Based on my lack of records im going by aed bad memory. I only think i had one formal meeting with mr. Mulvaney and it had nothing to do with ukraine. Did you have a chance to talk about your efforts in ukraine . Most of our communication r were through the stream of emails, which others were on generally. And i may have seen him casually and kept in touch, but we didnt have a back and forth. Was it your sense he had a direct line to President Trump . He must have as acting chief of staff . Of course. Let us look at what was said during the press conference. Did he also mention to me that the corruption related to the dnc server, absolutely, no question. Thats why we held up the money. It was part of the reason . The look back to what happened in 2016 certainly was part of the thing he was worried about in corruption with that nation. Thats absolutely appropriate. He said that President Trump in that clip had an interest in the investigations, did he not . Apparently, yes. Hes the chief of staff. He has conversation with the president every single day. Wouldnt you expect that . Its a quid pro quo. I would expect a direct line to the president. When did you first learn that the investigations were holding up the Security Assistance, if at any time . I dont know if i heard it from mr. Mulvaney. I know youre not a Career Foreign Service officer. Is it your understand iing the Security Assistance on an investigation into a plut call rival all the time . I have already testified i didnt think that would be proper. All right. Let us also see what had to say about that in the same press conference. Those were the driving factors. Did he also mention to me that the corruption related to the dnc zefber, absolutely, no question about that. But thats it. Thats why we held up the money. Ill just read it for you. He says i have news for everybody. Get over it. Theres going to be political influence in Foreign Policy. Know whag you know now about what was intend ed with ukraine do you can agree with mr. Mulvaney that theres just going to be political influence in Foreign Policy or we should all just get over it and allow a president now or later to investigate a plut call rival and ask a Foreign Government to do that . I think theres a big difference between political influence and investigating a rival. Politics enters into erg everything into Foreign Policy. In the context of what was going on in ukraine, i believe that the president should not investigate a political rival in return for a quid pro quo. And part of the way you figured out that all of the stuff that was going on that you were part of something that was bisically wrong, its because in the july 25th phone call the president himself he didnt tell you, we dont know if he told Rudy Giuliani because Rudy Giuliani wont come in here. He said directly to the president of ukraine that he theed the booidens investigated. Wasnt that your reading of call . First of all, i dont believe i was a a part of something that was wrong because based on what i knew i thought we were operate ing well within the center lane of proper u. S. Diplomacy. I yield back. Chairman, thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement by chief of staff mark short. Without objection. Ill be brief. In anticipation of mr. Holmes testimony tomorrow about this july 26th phone call that he overheard after a cafe that you had with President Trump, he overheard even though the call was not on speakerphone. I us dont believe so. Was an open cafe . It was outdoors. One of the points my colleagues keeps making is that david holmes prior testimony, which apparently confirm you heard that earlier . Was saying i summarized the phone call and had no recollection about. Though it was true, there is nothing wrong with that. Its all part of the narrative that President Trump is a bad guy, that he does not care about the ukrainians, but it seems to me that nothing says you care more about the ukrainians than sending chaplain antitank missiles. Do you agree with me . I agree that sending them is something ukraine wanted. Inthose work a lot better stopping russian tanks than the blankets sent by the obama administration. Your point is taken. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for your stamina, ambassador. A few fairly easy questions. You would agree that foreign interference in our elections can be a threat to our democracy . Under certain conditions, yes. Are there conditions under which the interference is not a threat . Did you say foreign interference . Always, sorry. Can do you believe identifying it should be a priority of the federal government . It should be one of those priorities. And when investigating President Trump, did you realize that those investigations could impact the 2020 election . No. Do you believe that it is ,ppropriate ever to invite coorsbribe, or interference in our elections . No. I want to refer to something you said in your Opening Statement. As i previously testified, had i known of all of mr. Giulianis his associations with individuals now under criminal indictment, i would not have acquiesced to his participation. It is hard to believe that without thanking you thought what he was doing was either wrong or not reputable. Fair . With 2020 hindsight you testified here today that you also came to believe that the request for investigations was in fact a request to investigate the bidens, both the former Vice President and hunter. And the transcript makes specific reference to that, including hunter biden. Today even the Ranking Member said we could clear all of this up if we could have hunter biden, and i have a simple question, what ukrainian law did hunter biden violate . I am not aware. What evidence is there that he may have violated ukrainian law . Im not aware. Test because there is none. Also from your Opening Statement, you said, as i know i have already provided 10 hours of deposition testimony. I did so despite directives from the white house and the state department that i refused to appear as many others have done. I agree to testify because i respect the gravity of the moment, and i believe that i have an obligation to account fully for my role in these events. By obligation, did you mean your legal obligation, or did you mean something bigger . Both my legal obligation and my moral obligation. For moral obligation. I want to present an alternative theory. Escapingly came here the holocaust via uruguay, and lucy andnts moved re where, frankly, you have been an american Success Story through dent of hard work and innovation, good ideas, a knack to hire the right people, and some luck. Have built a considerably successful business, when i know would make your parents proud. They came here because they knew that they could have freedom they did not initially, security they had not enjoyed, and opportunity that they had not enjoyed. No doubt that you are grateful and created a sense of patriotism in you. Is that fair to say . Very fair. Does that same standard not reply not apply to mr. Mulvaney, mr. Duffy, mr. Pompeo, . R. Bolton, mr. Giuliani why dont they do their patriotic duty and do what you have done, sir . Why doesnt matt same standard applied to the president of the United States . I wish i could answer it. I suspect you cannot because there is no good answer, but i do appreciate your willingness to come here today. With that, i yield back. Thank you, congressman. I have unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement from mick mulvaney. Ambassador, President Trump. S not a big fan of foreign aid in the president had a belief that Ukrainian Government officials supported his opponent in 2016. Ofhink there is one Member Parliament who said the majority of ukrainian politicians want Hillary Clinton to win, so he had that believe as well, and obviously he understood what was happening. We got a brandnew guy in ukraine. The zelensky guy wins. The party takes over and President Trump wants to see, with all these other things that are of concern to him, he wants to see that this new guy is actually, as i like to say, a real reformer and actually going to deal with the corruption problem. He gets held up on june 18 excuse me, july 18 and is released on september 11. It seems to me, more important than the 55 day pause is the 14 days when ukraine realized it was held up on the 29th. The 14 days when ukraine realized aid was held up on the 29 president th. We have had you testify to that. The political article. So aid gets held up on on august 29th and then released on september 11th. In those 14 days theres three important meetings with senior government officials and president zelensky. The august 29th meeting between bolton and president zelensky. Theres the meeting that youre a part of. Pence meets with president zelensky and then senators murphy and johnson meet with president zelensky. None of those meetings did any linkage to Security Assistance dollars and an announcement or start of any investigation ever come up. None of them. But it seems to me the one thats most important is is probably the one we have talked least about. Thats the september 5 lt meeting. Thats actually a meeting where theres no one, well, its much more congressional focused than white house focused. This is the meeting where senators murphy and johnson, bipartisan, meet with president zelensky. Whats interesting is what both senators have given us letters recounting what happened in that meeting. Senator murphy said i approached the topic and the president s to launch investigation into trumps political rival. Murphy brought it up. You have senators who strong supporters of money going to ukraine, they are all for it. And senator murphy, the democrat, even brings up the issue everyone has been talking about. It seems to me if ever there was going to be a time where the president of ukraine says, guys, you dont know what im dealing with. Im getting pressure from the president of the United States. He wants me to do this. If ever there was a time that the president of ukraine, the new guy, now knows the aid has been on hold, if ever there was a time to bring it up, that would have been the time. At no time during this meeting or on any other meeting on this trip was there any mention by zelensky or any other uainian they were feeling pressure to do anything in return for military aid. Not even after murphy warned them about getting involved in the election. So murphy fwaif this big deal on giuliani. And nothing. Guess what murphy also said. I did not dispute any of senator johnsons representations regarding the meeting. If ever it was going to happen, september 5th was the day. No one there. But even then it didnt happen. We have all kinds of other meetings. And as you testified earlier, there was never an announcement. You said there were three quid pro quos, but there with respect because there was never an announcement. This is as clear as it the gets these guys want to stir it up. Baseden no fd whatsoever and the best direct evidence we have is actually what the president told you. I want nothing. Theres no quid pro quo. I want zelensky to do exactly what he campaigned on. When that became clear, guess what. They got the money. They got the money. It all worked out. This is crazy what were going through. Because the facts are so darn clear. I yield back. S thank you, mr. Chairman. Ambassador, im impress ed with your career. Very successful in business. Im impressed with your commitment to Public Service. I was impressed with your statement, so thank you for that. You said it was the highest honor r for you to have opportunity to have this appointment to serve as ambassador to the eu. Correct. Yo. You quickly became involved in policy. In that policy, its been described by you and others it was really very clear to help ukraine fight internal corruption and resist external aggression. Correct. This congress, i think with the support of everybody up here, republicans and democrats, a significant amount of republican leadership, authorized the release of military aid. And you and others working with you believed it was very important to the new government, president zelensky to have that white house meeting to show our support and send a signal to russia. And from hearing you and other witnesses, ambassador yovanovitch, there was a concerteds team effort on your part to get that meeting and release that aid. Correct . This was always a concerted effort on my part to get the meeting. That was my singular fox was to get the meeting. That was shared by all of the colleagues i just mentioned, correct . Yes. And incredibly urgent, the ambassador described going to the front where ukrainians were dying. They have died and it was an existential issue for them to get the aid. You were well aware of that im sure. Is that correct . I did. Your forthright testimony, you had testified and its really the benefit of hindsight because you couldnt piece it together. Giuliani now what you were trying to figure out as you went along. Is that a fair statement . I think so. You testified you acted on the orders of the president that was you acting on his orders. Correct. And you said there was a quid pro quo. Relate ing ing to the meetin. Thats exactly right. No meeting, unless theres an investigation. Thats what we were told by mr. Giuliani. Mr. Giuliani no meeting unless there was an announcement of an investigation. Thank you. I asked by the way, did the efforts of mr. Giuliani impede the efforts that you and others were making to try to advance what you thought was ukraine policy . Not initially. Ultimate hi . Nothing happened. Giuliani was the one who was absolutely insis tan on the meeting. Giuliani was insis tant on the investigation. Now us i asked this of ambassador volcker. If the mayor of portland said to the mischief im not going to authorize your budget unless you agree to do an investigation into my political opponent, would that be wrong . Of course. And like wise, if it were the governor of the state of oregon, doing the same thing, correct . Correct. Would that same rule apply to the president of the United States . To investigate a political opponent, yes. So thats the question here. The president in his phone call, he asked president zelensky who desperately needed the release of that aid, who desperately needed the white house meeting, to do an investigation and it was focused on the booidens and hunt rer bidens. The words speak for themselves. Do you feel as a person who went into Public Service to serve, who had a a team of people that shared your desire to help ukraine, do you feel betrayed by the dubl dealing of the president . This is a real question. I dont want to characterize. You dont have to characterize him. We all if we get a chance to do something, we do it. Theres no better joy when doing it with other people. Let me answer this way. I would have preferred and im sure everyone would have preferred that the president simply met with mr. Zelensky right away. Our assessment was that he and the president would get on famously. He was smart, he was funny, he was charming, he was the kind of person the president would like and once the two of them got together, we thought the chemistry would take over and good things would happen between the u. S. And ukraine relationship. Thats why we were pushing for a quick, unconditional meeting. Its unfortunate he was unwilling to meet without the commitment on the investigation. Thank you. Lets pick up right there. You would have prefer red if thy just had the meeting with the president of ukraine without these conditions. Is that what youre saying . Yes. But there were these conditions. And it involved an investigat n investigation. Remember the initial invitation that the president sent to president zelensky had no conditions. That didnt last very long. Then there were conditions. This is not controversial at this point, i dove dont believe. The president wanted investigations. You thought it was the 2016 election. We now know it was bidens. Today we do. We can probably from today until the end of time set aside any confusion that when somebody is asking for an investigation over the summer what they really meant was bidens. With mihindsight, yes. The day after the president s famous call, youre having lunch with david holmes. We have covered this. He overhears your conversation. You have no reason to dispute what mr. Holmes said, i think you said you wouldnt have reason to think he didnt speak about the investigations with the president. The president raised investigations with you, right . Correct. On the 26th. Correct. We know that was about the biden bs and 2016. I know you didnt know that at the time, but you now know. Mr. Holmes said you said bidens, but you dont recall that . Do you dispute it . I do. But you dont recall it. But thats what the president said. You do confirm he wanted to talk about investigations. Now with the complete picture what he said 24 hours before, yes, it makes sense. You said its wrong to investigate political opponents. We have agreed on that today. Yes. And yet, thats what we know the president was asking for. Who would have benefitted from an investigation of the president s political opponents . I dont want to characterize who would have and who would not have. Thats my question. Would you answer it for me . Restate the question. Who would benefit from an investigation of the president s political opponent. Presumably the person who asked for the investigation. Who is that . If the president asked for the investigation, it would be he. Its not a hypothetical. We just went around this track. The president asked you about investigations. It was talking about the bidens. When he asked you about the biden investigation, who was he seeking to benefit . He did not ask me about the booid investigation. I said that about 19 times. Sir, we we just went through this. When we went through the investigations, we just did this about 30 seconds ago, right . Its pretty sumpl question, isnt it . Im having trouble when he asked about investigations, i assumed he meant company. Who would benefit from an investigation of the bidens . They are two different questions. Im just asking you one. Who would benefit from an investigation of the bidens . I assume President Trump. There we have it. It didnt hurt a bit, did it . It didnt hurt a bit. Let me ask you something. I have been very forthright. I really resent what youre trying to do. You have been very forthright. This is your fourth try to do o so. It didnt work so well the first time. We had a declaration. Remember that . Now were here a a third tomb. We have a doozy of a statement this morning. Theres a bunch of stuff you deent recall. We appreciate your candor, but lets be really clear on what it took to get it out of you. So my question is when the president is putting pressure on the ukraines withholding a meeting, to get this investigation that you and i agree would benefit him politically, what kind of position does that put the ukrainians in, sir . A terrible position. Why . Why does it put them in a terrible position . Obviously, they are not receiving ultimately what they thought was coming to them. And they are put in a position that jeopardizes their security. A position that jeopardizes their security and they are being asked to do an investigation to help their security, essentially, that would benefit the president politically. You might say they are being asked to give him a personal benefit in exchange for an official act. Is that a fair summary . In your hypothetical, thats correct. Its no the a hypothetical, sir. This is real life. They asked to give him a personal benefit for an exchange for an official act . Sir, im not going to go around in circles with you. Please be clear about what youre asking me. My time is expired. Thank you for your appearance. Good afternoon, ambassador. Its good to see you again. Thank you. Do you have any knowledge of a possible meeting on or around may 7th involving then president elect zelensky and several aids to discuss how to handle pressure from President Trump and mr. Giuliani about investigating the bidens . I dont recall such is a meeting. You dont recall such a meeting . You dont recall hearing . Again, if i dont have records, schedules, right now i dont recall anything about such a meeting. Was this a meeting among the ukrainians . Involving then president elect seth lent b skit. So this would have been early on in his presidency with several aids to discuss how to handle pressure from President Trump and mr. Giuliani about investigate iing the bidens. I dont recall. You dont remember that. Ambassador, in the may 23rd meeting, you talked about how the president categorized ukraine. What he thought about ukraine. I believe that meeting was may 23rd. Did you ever hear president zelensky relay any concerns about you, about how he felt, about how the United States viewed him, whether he was being taken seriously or any concerns about being used a as a tool for political reasons . Well, i saw that in an email from ambassador taylor. We obviously tried to relay to president zelensky the Glass Half Full version of how the United States felt about ukra e ukraine. Not the glass half empty version, which is were here for you, support you and trying hard to get you the meeting with President Trump. So after hearing that from ambassador taylor, you tried to reassure president zelensky that america was truly on their side. I think we have been trying to assure president zelensky throughout his entire term as a president. I know you said you dont quite remember exactly when you came to the realization that bah barisma meant bidens. But when asked about a news report of his son, President Trump told fox news that it was, and i quote a major scandal, a major problem. May 9th the New York Times reported that Rudy Giuliani planned to travel to ukraine and, quote, shortly to meet with president zelensky to urge him to pursue the 2016 election and the involvement of hunter biden. Are you saying that you did not realize at that time, talking about on may 9th of this year, that mr. Giuliani wanted to urge president zelensky to pursue the 2016 election and the involvement of hunter biden . I do not, but i did not then. You did not know that. I believe you said earlier that you did not pay any attention at all to any of the numerous news reports of the person you were directed by the president to work with when he was on television over and over and over again talking about hunter biden. No, i did not. On september 9th in a text from taylor, he said are we now saying that aid is tied to investigations and i believe you text back call me. Then you had a text from President Trump. And President Trump said something to the effect theres no quid pro quo. Do you know what prompted him to say that . You asked him what do you want. He goes directly to theres no quid pro quo. As opposed to going directly to the list of things that he wanted wp what prompted him to use that term . I have no clue. Did you discuss your text from ambassador taylor with President Trump before he made that statement . I did not. I asked a very open ended question. And you remember that directly. Although there are several other conversations that you cannot recall because you dont have your notes or your documents or your emails r or other information, but you remember that call specifically exactly what the president said to you in response to your question about what do you want. Why is that . I remember the first girl i kitsched. I remember that conversation because, as us i said, it was a pretty intense, short conversation. Tell me about the conversation you had at the restaurant that was overheard by mr. Holmes. That was a a conversation with the president. Tell me about that conversation with the president. What was said on the phone . Again, i dont remember the specifics. Im being guide d by what mr. Holmes testified to. I said i didnt dispute the basic subject of the conversation. As i said, we were talking primarily about a completely unrelated matter. And i think the president may have brought up how to go with zelensky or is he going to do the investigations, which we had been talking about for weeks. And then as i said, i dispute mr. Holmes characterization of what i said afterwards. I yield back. Good afternoon, ambassador. Im going to pick up on that september 9th conversation, which the president allegedly said i want nothing. I dont want a quid pro quo. I presume that on this september 9th conversation the president did not mention that that was the same day that we launched a congressional investigation into whether there was a quid pro quo. I know all of that today, but we didnt have time to talking things like that. I presume he didnt mention the whistleblower complaint that also alleged theres a quid pro quo. He did not. You cant rule out the possibility that the reason he started talking that way on that day is is because of the congressional investigation. I cant rule that out. The inauguration was may 20th. Correct. Senator johnson, secretary perry, and other, right . Correct. Vice president pence was supposed to originally attend that, correct . I believe so. We learned from jennifer williams, a witness who testified it was at the president s direction on may 13th that the Vice President not attend. She said, quote, according to the Vice President s chief of staff, the president derped that the Vice President would not go. Do you know why the Vice President did not attend the inauguration . No clue. I want to point to a New York Times article from last week that says that lev, an associate of Rudy Giuliani. Only what i have read very recently. He told a representative of the incoming government the government while had had to announce an investigation into trumps political rival and his son, or penmike pence would not attend the swearing in. Did the Vice President not attend possibly because this investigation had not yet been initiated by the zelensky government . I have no idea. You cant rule it out. I have no idea. You have no basis for ruling it out . All i know is the leader of the delegation was secretary perry, who invited me ahong. Since you came forward in these proceedings, others in the administration have tried to distance themselves from you. On october 14th, Rudy Giuliani told the Washington Post that sondland, quote, seemed to be in charge, closed quote, of the effort to get ukrainian officials to publicly announce investigations. Thats false, correct. If i was in charge, i would have asked President Trump to have the meeting without preconditions and the meeting would have occurred a long time. Thats exactly right. The president is the one that wanted these investigations, as we learned later on in reading the july 25th call transcript. The president through Rudy Giulianied the investigations. Tim morrison came in yesterday and in his testimony disparaged you too. He called you, quote, unquote, the gordon problem. Thats what my wife call mess. Maybe they are talking. Should i be worried . On october 8th of this year, the president tweeted you were a really good man and a great american. And on november 8th, one month later, he said i hardly know the gentleman. Easy come, easy go. What im concerned about, you were part of the three amigos, but what im really concern ed about is that the president and the good folks over here, my republican colleagues, are now casting you as the one amigo. The one lonely amigo they are going to throw under the bus. But the truth is that as you said in your Opening Statement, the suggestion that you were engaged in some rogue diplomacy or irregular channel of diplomacy is, kwet, unquote, absolutely false. Thats kwekt. The presumption that military aid was conditioned and based on mulvaneys statement we saw on the video. I didnt have the benefit at the that time. You would standby the presumption you had based on what you know now. And on september 1, when you told andre yurmock r your presumption about military aid being conditioned, you then b told mr. Morrison what you said. He did not try to dispute your presumption, correct . Us dont recall him dispute ing it. I think i went right over to him and just repeated the conversation. When you told Vice President pence your concerns, he did not dispute that as well . He didnt respond. He just listened. When you told pompeo that wasnt disputed as well. I dont recall. That concludes the member questioning. Do you have any Closing Remarks . Just beliefly, i know you want to get on a plane. I want to thank you for your indulgence today. Once again the American People have seen another fail yir of their conspiracy theory, which thats if it doesnt change between now and our next hearing, which is in a few hours from now or another hour or so. It keeps changing every day. The claim that you had an irregular channel, drug deals, now supposedly youre a one amigo. Nobody on this side claimed that. I lost my amigos . Not from us. No bribes given to the ukrainian people. Or to the ukrainian president. Your coconspirator, i find it remarkable and troubling douhowe democrats and collaborators and the press have been able to vilify ambassador volcker. He was supposed to work on these matters in ukraine, like you, ambassador. It was a very regular channel and no amount of story telling by the left and the democrats on this will change that. It was deregular channel. Testimony about today was far from compelling and provides zero evidence of any of the crimes that have been alleged. In fact, ambassador sondland testified he presumed the temporary pause in military aid was conditioned on ukraine carrying out the investigations the democrats are desperate to portray as nefarious. The democrats have a as seized on this presumption as proof they can use it against the president. However, ambassador sondland testified in his deposition when he asked President Trump what do you want from ukraine, President Trump replied, i want nothing. This is no quid pro quo. Let me repeat. President trump said, i want nothing. Theres no quid pro quo. This comes on the heels of the testimony by ambassador volcker. He saw no evidence of bribery, exportion or treasonous actions. We deny know that was on the table until today. Like the president s call with president zelensky, democrats want the American People to it, that hearsay is much better than direct evidence. I think mr. Radcliffe from texas laid out the direct evidence we have from your testimony today. Nothing we have heard establishes a claim that the president acted improperly in his dealings with ukraine and certainly nothing has been presented to support anything for a an impeachment. In the meantime, mr. Chair, we continue to have no answers to the questions that only you know. Starting with who is the whistleblower who gave birth to this hoax and the coordination with the democrats on this committee. Second, what is the full extent of ukraines election meddling against the Trump Campaign in 2016. And finally, why did ba arisma hire hunter biden. Another hearing in the books and no answers to basic three material actual questions that we need answers to. I yield back. Thank you, ambassador, r for being here. Thank you. I thank the Ranking Member for his remarks. Ambassador sondland, thank you for your testimony today. This is a seminole moment in our investigation. In the evidence you have brought forward is deeply significant and troubling. Its been a long hearing. I know americans watching throughout the count b try may not have had the opportunity to watch all of it, so im going to go through a few of the highlights and not try to paraphra paraphrase. Im going to refer to your Opening Statement. If rerefuse to work with mr. Giuliani well lose an opportunity to cement relations. So we followed the president s orders. Mr. Giulianis requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president seth lent b skit. That he make a Public Statement of the 2016 election, dnc server. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States and we knew that these investigations were important to the president. Later you testified i tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended, but i never received a clear answer. In the absence of any credible explanation for this suspension of aid, i later came to believe the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a Public Statement from are ukraine commit og to the investigations of the 2016 election, as mr. Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential quid pro quo regard ing the security a aid with senator ron johnson and also shared my concern with the ukrainians. So much for the ukrainians didnt know. You cant have a quid pro quo unless ukraines know and you have testify ied today that the ukrainians knew. You further testify ied mr. Giuliani emphasized that the president wanted a a Public Statement from president zelensky committing ukraine to look into corruption issues. Giuliani specifically mentioned the 2016 election including the dnc server as two topics of importance to the president. In reference to the july 10th meeting at the white house that you attended with bolton and ukrainian delegation, you said i recall mention iing the prerequisite of investigations before any white house call or meeting. You further testified again. I knew the topic of investigation was important to President Trump. Testified later i know that members of this committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question. Was there a quid pro quo. As i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and white house meeting. The answer is yes. We understood the meeting reflected President Trumps desires and requirements. Later on the subject of security aid, you testified in the absence of any credible explanation for the hold, i came to the conclusion that the aid, like the white house visit, was jeopardized in preparation for the september 1 meeting in war saw. I asked secretary pom peo whethr a face to face conversation between trump with zelensky could help break the log jam. This is from an email that the state department refuses to provide to us, but you have provided to us. It reads should we block time for president obaotpotus to mee. I would tell him once cain krooin cains justices are in police, that z should be able to move forward publicly with confidence on those issues of importance to potus and the United States. Hopefully, that will break the log jam and secretary pompeos reply, yes. Not what issues important to the potus, not what are you talking about, because secretary pompeo was on the july 25th phone call. He knew. What issues were important to potus and there were two of them. The investigation into 2016 and the dnc server and the investigation into the bidens. By the end of august, you testified my belief was if ukraine did something to demonstrate a serious intention to fight corruption, specifically addressing barisma and the 2016 server, then the hold on military aid would be lifted. I mentioned to Vice President pence before the meetings with ukraine bs that i had concerns that the delay in aid had become tied to the issue of investigations. And as you testified, he gave you no response, no what are you talking about, ambassador. How could that be, how do we clear that up, ambassador. He nodded his hazard or took it in. And of course, the record of that 25th call between President Trump and sezelensky was in the Vice President s reading book earlier. Then you testified my goal at the time was to do what was necessary to get the aid rereleased, to break the log jam. I believe the Public Statement we were discussing for weeks was essential to advancing that goal. Now my colleagues seem to believe and let me add too about the call with the president. You confirmed today. In addition to claiming no quid pro quo, the president was adamant that president zelensky had to clear things up and do it in public. Thats what you have confirmed. Thats what you also told ambassador taylor. So he would deny there was a quid pro quo, but he was adamant that zelensky had to clear things up and do it in public. Now i have said a lot of things about President Trump over the years. I have very strong feelings a about President Trump, which are neither here nor there. But i will say this. I do not believe the president would allow himself to be led by the nose by Rudy Giuliani or ambassador sondland or anybody else. I think the president was the one who decided whether a meeting would happen, whether aid would be lifted, not anyone who worked for him. And so the answer to the question, who was refusing the meeting with zelensky that you believed should take place and everybody believes should take place. The question was when. Who was the one stand iing in t way of that meeting . Who was the one refusing to take that meeting . Theres only one answer to that question. And its donald j. Trump, 45th president of the United States. So who was holding up the military assistance . Was it you, ambassador . No, it wasnt. Was it ambassador taylor, no. Was it deputy secretary kent, no. It was pompeo, no. Who had the decision to release the aid, it was one person. Donald j. Trump, president of the United States. Now my colleagues seem to think unless the president says the magic words that i hereby bribed ukrainians that theres no evidence of bribery or other highs or misdemeanors. But lets look to the best evidence of whats in the president s head. Whats his intent . Whats the reason behind the hold on the meeting and on the aid. Lets look at what the president has to say. Lets look at whats undies puted about what the president thooz say. You know how we know what the president has to say. Not because what you have represented or others have represented. But because we have a record of his conversation and with who . The one who really matters. With president zelensky. This is what he says. He says rudy very much knows whats happening. And hes a very capable guy. This is after he says he wants a favor. He goes into crowd strike in 2016. He says rudy very much knows whats happening and is a is very capable guy. If you could speak to him, that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman was bad news. The people she was dealing with in ukraine were bad news. So i want to let you know the other thing theres a lot of talk about bidens son he stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general, that would be great. Biden went bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you could look into it, it sounds horrible to me. So whats in the president s mind when hes placed this otherwise inexplicable hold on the aid when he refuses to take the meeting . Whats on his mind . Biden. He makes that abundantly clear. I understand you said you didnt make the connection. I will let the American People judge the credibility of that answer. Theres no mistaking what Donald Trumps interest was. Theres no mistaking about what donald trump meant when he had the call with you on an insecure phone as youre sitting there in ukraine when the president said in the investigation, he meant biden. He made that abundantly clear to the president of ukraine the day before. The question is not what the president meant. The question is not whether he was responsible for holding up the aid he was. The question is not whether everybody knew and apparently they did. The question is what are we prepared to do about it. Is there any accountability or are we forced to conclude that this is just now the world that we live in when a president of the United States can withhold vital military aid from ab an ally at war with the russians and fighting our fight too to defend our count b try against russian aggression. Are we prepared to say in the words of mick mulvaney, get over it. Or get used to it. Were not prepared to say that. Were not prepared to say that. I appreciate, ambassador, i appreciate the fact that you have not opined on whether the president should be impeached or shouldnt, or whether the offense of bribery has been committed. Thats for us to decide. In consultation with our constituents and our conscience. Its for us to decide. And much as my colleagues have said otherwise, this is not an easy decision for any of us. And much as my colleagues may say otherwise, this is not something we relish. For over a year i resisted this whole idea of going down the road to impeachment. But it was made necessary and not by the whistleblower, but by the actions of the president. Im continually struck by the colleagues would suggest that because the president got caught we should ignore the fact that he was conditioning official acts in order to get political favors in order to get an investigation against his rival. Getting caught is no defense. Not to a violation of the constitution or to a violation of his oath of office. It certainly doesnt give us a reason to ignore our own oath of office. We are adjourned. The House Intelligence Committee and adam schiff continue hearings against President Trump live Tuesday Morning starting at 9 00 eastern on cspan three, with testimony former National Security Council Senior director for europe russia, and david holmes, aid to the top u. S. Diplomat ukraine. Cspan. Org, or3, listen wherever you are with free cspan radio app. And log onto cspan. Org impeachment, where you can find video and transcripts of testimony. Plus, a feature that identifies key moments during the hearing, indicated by a star in the timeline. Followed the house impeachment inquiry and the administrations response on cspan. Unfiltered coverage live on tv, our radio app, and online. Watch primetime reairs on cspan, or stream any time on demand at cspan. Org impeachment. The House Intelligence Committee held its fifth open hearing at the impeachment inquiry against President Trump. Lawmakers heard testimony from Deputy Assistant secretary of defense for russian, ukrainian, and Eurasian Affairs lauren cooper, and under secretarof
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