Transcripts For CSPAN U.S. Institute Of Peace On Citizens Radicalization 20240714

U. S. Needed greater capacities to wage peace as effectively as we wage war. It was a bipartisan effort drawing broad support from both parties, and in 1984, president reagan signed into law the United States institute of peace. Nonpartisan, National Institute charge with the mission of preventing, mitigating, and resolving violent conflict abroad. We fulfill that mission by linking training and analysis, research and policy, and by working with local partners on the ground in conflict zones around the world. We have offices in iraq and afghanistan, tunisia, just to name a few and when it comes to violent extremism, we know that significant knowledge gaps still exist and they continue to pose obstacles. We are proud to host the resolve network which stands for researching solution to violent extremism. It is a Global Consortium of researchers and research to moretions, committed understanding of violent extremism in the sources of resilience. We have seen through our work and through research that the rise, spread, and evolution of violent extremism is one of the most challenging issues we face today, especially as it interacts with existing conflict, or create new ones, or further damages fragile contacts. Violent extremism is on everyones mine following the attacks in el paso and dayton. Empty the newly empty side of the bed and those reading the text messages. Weekend, more families and friends were added to the list of the forever injured, forever scarred from a forever home to buy violence. This is a type of grief and the type of violence that exists in way too many countries around the world today. Fact, a task force on extremism in fragile states, worldwide, tags have increased fivefold since the year 2001. Have spreadt groups to 19 out of 45 countries in the middle each, the middle east and the horn of africa. Committed institute to the notion that peace is possible, we want to help uncover new ways to do better at addressing some of the most Wicked Problems involving violent extremism. Today, we are tackling the problem how governments and communities are grappling with what to do with their citizens to travel to the socalled Islamic State and other conflicts and they return home. With the territorial caliphate extinguished, more than 100 countries could face the task of not only reintegrating their citizens, perhaps 10,000 in total, but also preparing their communities for a future with living with people nextdoor. Some who were part of these violent extremist groups will face trial, and some will face incarceration, but not all. Some will eventually be released from prison, and many others will reintegrate directly back into committees. So local communities need to be prepared and society has a Public Safety imperative to pursue rehabilitation and reconciliation. People need processes to enable them to abandon their violent attitudes and behaviors, but communities also need avenues to enable social cohesion and to avoid reradicalization. Yet, we lack the language in our Public Discourse diva talk about people or disengaging from violent extremism. As far as most of us are concerned, once iteris forever, terrorist and while the radicalization is a very complex process, there are many, many different paths to violent extremism. It is social in nature, so disengagement needs to address social factors to not only help someone to disengage from their violent attitudes, but rebuilt the bonds between that person in society and generate a new sense of belonging. Scholars, we committee members, can be unintentionally using language that underscores, anger, and fear. We reinforce a persons identity as a terrorist or a fighter, and it may contribute to a self fulfilling prophecy. Luckily, for those of us who study violence and conflict, we are not the first discipline to work with highly stigmatized populations. In Public Health and criminal justice, and social work, practitioners have learned to leverage language as a tool to shape attitudes and behaviors, to reduce the burden of stigma, and to ease open spaces for engagement. In the spaces, communities can be presented with opportunities for social learning and rehumanization and reconciliation. Let me be clear, i am not pollyannaish about the real violent risk that violent extremists groups pose, and this conversation does not take away the need for accountability for those who have committed atrocities and other crimes or enable others to do so. This is not about forgiveness, but rather solutions. But once justice meet up with sentences, prison time has been served, or those who did not commit crimes were never charged , this need to call a spade a spade must grapple with the other reality of how we enable communities, new to the front lines, to get reintegration and reconciliation right because all of our safety depends on. This is a tall order. This is what i am delighted to be joined by four incredible experts who help us further unlock and unleash new avenues for adjusting this challenge addressing this challenge. I will introduce each speaker individually. They will give a 15 minute or so presentation. I will introduce the next speaker and they will present. When everyone is finished, we will move to question and answers questions and answers. We are also accepting questions live on twitter and from our overflow rooms here. With that, i will introduce our speakers and get the day going. It is my pleasure to introduce this doctor, social psychologists with research on the dynamics of violent radicalization. His model drawing from human needs is outlined in his latest book from Oxford University three pillars of radicalization. He will provide context on the social and psychological drivers , with attention on significance and respect. Please help me welcome him. [applause] thank you very much. Good morning to all. I am very honored and pleased to forere, and thanks arranging and organizing this event. Thank you for inviting me. Violent extremism continues to be a major issue for nations around the world. Cal a fat is far from being defeated calla fat is heart caliphate is hard caliphate is far from being defeated. There have been hundreds of attacks in different parts of the planet. The question is, how do we understand the global threat, and what can we do about it . In todays talk, i would like to present a psychological perspective on this issue that i believe to be important. Phenomenon,ogical Many Political phenomenon that has shaped history, are rooted in human psychology. Asrolevel phenomenon, such poverty, poor education, or oppression occasionally contribute to radicalization. Sometimes a matter less and sometimes a matter not at all. Why . Because a matter only when they are in circumstances that activate the psychological mechanism that promotes radicalization. Psychology is the basic discipline that addresses radicalization. Importantly, if we understand these mechanisms, we cannot only understand it, but we can understand it and prevent radicalization the world over. Decade, several decades actually, we have been carrying out research and various parts of the Globe Research in various parts of the globe with hundreds, if not terrorists in jails and other locations, and on the basis of that empirical work, we have developed an integrity model, a model that on the one hand, capitalizes on important socials about extending that modelnd integrating the sense of showing how diverse insights, combined into a process whereby radicalization and violent extremism take place. Suggest, in fact, three parameters of the process are critical. They had been a full different models. We combine them together, and the three parameters are individuals motivation, the narrative that tells the individuals how to satisfy their motivations, and the network that validates the narrative and dispenses rewards for those who ofve their needs in terms violent extremism. Let me say a few words about these three. The need is critical. After all, radicalization is located by the individual. It is an individual who decides who will wear a suicide vest, pick up a weapon, and travel thousands of miles to join the fight and kill people wherever they might be. Therefore, a very important question was posed by a researcher is, what is the motivation . Why do they do that . Them take them take those risks , and make those sacrifices, and risk life and limb in order to join the fight . Providedsearchers have an answer in terms of the list of different motivations. Asa motivational cocktail they put it. For example, the perks of afterlife has been one motivation. They do it in order to enjoy the perks up afterlife. For they do it because of their adulation and commitment to their leader. They want it because to show that women can do it, or they do it because of vengeance. All of these motivations have their place and are important in specific cases, but i submit to you, underlining all the motivations is one universal need, and that is the need to matter and to be significant. To have selfrespect and respect from others and ones community. Now, this quest for significance , like with all motivations, around at all times. How is this quest activated . The simple answer is it is activated when significance requires special value. It is seen when special value loses its value. This can be ones own failures, lack of luck, ones own they promote that ones suffering. Womenample, palestinian were accused of extramarital , orirs or infertile disfigured by fire, so it could be a very personal thing, having nothing to do with international conflicts. Be associateso with ones social identity. N you are you militated when you are humiliated, you feel discrimination as your own thing, and then you are motivated to restore your significance. Humiliation, that is discrimination that provides an opportunity to become a hero, a martyr for the group that was discriminated against and who was humiliated and experienced the grievance. Significantst for is a universal human need. As an author put it, all of us have a sense of being a human and a martyr. Questle babys the has a a little baby has a quest for attention because otherwise it would not survive. No one wants to feel disrespected. We require respect. We require that sense of significance. We require a sense of significance by living up to our values. It is the values that trickle down to the ones who serve them in land their significance who serve them and lend their significance. The narrative element ties oflence to the values significance, and shows how to obtain significance through violence. It tells you to gain significance, you have to join the fight. You have to kill other people. You have to be ready to take risks, sacrifice yourself, maybe that wille cause and give you significance. The narrative function is very important. Yall create significant. We are not we all great significance, but we are not all terrorists. We serve other values, but if you are of the narrative that you have been assaulted, your insulted, and you have to stand up for the group, protect theht, and groups glory and significance, at this point, you become a violent extremist. Finally, the last is a network. Why the network . The network is important because we are social beings. The network of people who you define forthe group, us what is real and it is validating the narrative. Without the social network, we would not know that actually you have to fight. It is important to fight. The Network Tells you, yes, that is what you need to do. Agreement of the network and beyond validation, it dispenses rewards. Admiresres people it people who serve the network through violence. It tells you, you know, you are a hero, you are a martyr, and you will be forever engraved in the collective memory of the group. You may go to paradise and so forth. Network . Of what are we talking about . Varies widely from approximate face to face networks. A bunch of guys that get together and inside each other to action, all the way to virtual networks, networks on the internet that are particularly influential these days that people attend. So, it does not have to be in a physical presence of the network. You know that if you carry out a shooting, if you run your vehicle into people and kill them, and if you pick up a knife and kill enemies of the group, you will be appreciated, so it is kind of an implicit network. You do not have to be in physical presence of. Now, what is unique about our model . And how does that relate to radicalization . After all, social scientists scientists have been violent extremism for many decades. And they have provided very important insight. I think what is important about our model is that it brings these insights together into a offied function of portrayal a violent of violent extremism. Some people in some models illuminate one part of the elephant, and our aspiration is to highlight the entire elephant and show how the different parts work together. Let me examine some very important contributions in this domain. Book, whileamous men rebel, discusses relative deprivation, the idea that your its just not received do and has been discriminated. This tops the quest of significance. There are other ways of losing significance, as i mentioned, significant significance that are personallybased, and we have evidence that personal failure leaves people to embrace collective causes in the service of regaining their significance. Course, he does not emphasize the essence of the network. He does identify an important element, but i think those other parameters are also important and we bring them together. Factors,lk about macro economies, and others, poverty, oppression, poor education, and they all came to the inclusion all came to the conclusion that neither of them promote violent extremism. It also addresses the loss of significance. If you are poor or oppressed, you dont feel very good. You feel very significant, like you dont matter, but not all poor or oppressed people become violent extremists. There are other ingredients to the mixture. You need to have the narrative and you have to have the social movement that supports the narrative in order for this to combine into this combusted combustive my great colleague emphasize the issue of sacred values and devoted factors as an important ingredient in violent extremism. Sacred values are important because they allow people to serve them, and therefore, become significant. And the motivation for significance is served wonderfully if you sacrifice life, take risks, are ready to die, on order of sacred values, so sacred values are important in conjunction with the other elements. Mark made famous the issue of networks. Networks are important. They are important because they validate the narrative and they dispense rewards. They pronounce you a martyr or a hero. About derrico is asian what about the same three elements that promote radicalization, if you reverse them, they promote deradicalization. Example, the importance of narrative, the importance of counter messaging is of paramount significance. You have to counter the idea that islam is served by jihad. You have to promote the idea that there is a tolerance and that the audiology is actually misinterpretation of what the prophet intended. You have to have a counter narrative. We listen to reason. And narratives are what provide justification and the rationale for our actions. Narrative is important in deradicalization. Important inry deradicalization. We recently completed another book on the german neonazis, and those who led the movement, often left because they connected to another network. They meet somebody, a friend, a romantic relationship, that drove them back to the mainstream ways of thinking. So the networking important is very important in promoting deradicalization. And finally, reduction of the dominance of the quest of significance. It is an activation of other needs. Aneed for love, having career, having a life, and ay expresses better former member of an Organization Organization who explained why he wanted to deradicalize. You say to yourself the f word, i say to myself that time is running out. You may want to get married. You are going on 40 years old and you want to get married next year, and you say to yourself, game,at this stage of the [indiscernible] we have to live a bit. The other needs are activated. The quest of significance [indiscernible] evidence,d empirical and time is too short and are probably already exceeded my time, but i would like to share with you a story of one Research Project on violent radicalization. Ou all know year long 30 [indiscernible] they were recognized as a terrorist organization and employed brutal tactics, highprofile assassinations, suicide bombings, child of childns used abductions used for human shields. 50,000 fighters killed. It was one of the most vicious terrorist organizations in the history of this phenomenon. They had their air force, air tigers, their navy, their sea tigers. Than 11,000 tigers are rendered tiger surrendered after a bloody battle after thousands of civilians lost their life in 2009. The government at that point launched an effort to rehabilitate the surrender of the terrorists. Placed inere facilities of different kinds. Luck to getreat. Nto those facilities [indiscernible] architect of the demolition of the tigers. It was adopted from the Saudi Program and other programs. They had vocational, educational, cultural, and theyy programs wanted to link up with new probabilities. Framework, the need was to do with respect and dignity. Asy were not referred to dignitaries. They were called beneficiaries. This was adapted from the Saudi Program. The narrative was on the ineffectiveness of four, and emphasized ineffectiveness of war, and emphasized the we were able to carry out controlled research of close to of education, social, and social education, social and other programs and we were able to use a controlled group. This was the minimal Treatment Group and we look at it as three , at sixmonth intervals. The full Treatment Group, there radicalization decreased significantly over the minimal Treatment Group, which again, this particular program was effective. At the end of it, they were much less medicalized than when they entered. And what is interesting for all attitudes in the positivelye related to a reduction [indiscernible] by feelings mediated significant, feeling that they mattered and that they felt cared for. This was immediately after the program, on the left. Examined the beneficiaries released from the program. And the number of programs they participated in was negatively related to extremism, and what is particularly interesting, re were less extreme [indiscernible] who were never apart of the organization. Ist is a bit more troubling most of them that had the , theytions to the network were less more extreme than those who did not. This is a community where they were connected to a former member who were a bit more extreme. In some connected and some connected to the ds for a were more extreme [indiscernible] sorry for being so long. I think these were lows i think these results offer a mechanism that support the model and suggest that the effectiveness of radicalization uld take on an approach [indiscernible] in the same way they can radicalize, they can deradicalize and reradicalize. Thank you very much. [applause] thank you so much for a lot of information on empiric as well as theory. I hope many others find they can learn even more about his work and his latest book. His work in his latest book. For me a warm welcome shannon martinez, a former so she will give the importance of belonging and processed engagement in the rehabilitation process. Please join me in welcoming shannon. [applause] shannon thank you for having me. I dont have a slideshow. [laughter] moment i wanted take a to honor those who have died peopleek at the hands of idea that they were ,restling with and came through and chose to enact catastrophic a result of those ideas. Event isg for this pretty, pretty uncanny because we are currently engaged inside this country in a discussion about the language that we use. And whether or not that language holds power, and whether or not language influences behavior . I had a saying essentially is how we pray is how we believe is how we live. I thought about this a lot over the years about the words that we use. Change our thoughts and how we think, and our thoughts then change how we live. Perfect scenario from this human woulda single radicalize violent ideology. In a perfect world, no one would take that trajectory. It still leaves a whole lot of people who are still currently in that movement, or whatever movement of choice, whatever expression of their violent space ideology. For over thisrio past week would be for the young awaynvolved to have turned from their ideologies before they commit it catastrophic acts of violence. But then, where do they go . What do we do with them . And how do we treat them afterwards . From the time i was 15 until just about the time i was 20, i was involved in a White Supremacy movement. I had a pretty dysfunctional childhood, but not overly abusive or anything like that. Pretty runofthemill 1980s white, middleclass dysfunction. At the age of 14, as i was doing what most 14yearold do in grappling with my identity and who i was in the world and who i chose to be, i felt pretty certain that mainstream culture was never really going to be a place where i could posit my identities and gravitated towards counterculture. The first place i really looked, one of my very first favorite books with the autobiography of malcolm x. I loved the power of the i dailys i loved the power of the identities. I would end up going into the punk movement, shirley movement, shortly before i turned 15, i went to a party where i was raped by two men. Because of my childhood, i knew i could not tell my parents. I knew they would have blamed me for lying with how i was going lying about where i was going. And that i was drinking, and they knew and i knew they would be more upset about that then the fact i was raped. I became consumed with rage. The angry is people in the periphery of the subculture were the White Supremacists skinheads. The rate i felt resonated deeply with the rage they felt. I spent more time with them and started listening to white power music. It broke down the barriers for me of using raciallychart language and introduced raciallycharged language and introduced the talking points of the movement into my vernacular. I began to read some of the literature that was a part of the movement. Over time, i would have a complete and utter physical echo chamber i lived in that was only about this moment from the time i woke up about this movement from the time i woke up to the time i passed out drunk at the end of the night. Very luckily, i ended up not having a place to go at one point. I was dating a young man who was in the army. He was also a white supremacist skinhead. He was in the army and was in training. And so, i went to live with him. At that point, i did not have anywhere else to go. Luckily for me, his mom, who was a single mom and had three younger sons, besides him, set i could go live with her. Said i could go live with her. I am pretty sure she knew what our ideology was. Time,f she didnt, at the myooked very gruff good external appearance mirrored my internal experience of my life and i looked very angry, and carried myself with bravado and really did not take anyones shit. S word. Hey, cspan. [laughter] chose to see passes violent creature and chose instead to see a herd and struggling young woman. Shes set some parameters about trying to get a job, helping her with stuff around the house, and included me in all of the daytoday family activities. Taking the kids to cub scouts. Reading the chronicles of narnia to the boys at night. She created enough stability in my life that expanded the space around me so i could begin to shift and look and examine where i was and how i had gotten there. Actually for b the ideology for me fell away quickly as i got space and stability. One of the other very crucial things i think she did for me is that she reconnected me with a sense of future. Arehen you are when you living a hyperbaric life, there is no future. There might be a future in terms of the movement, or what you hope will come from your belief system, but in a personal sense, there was only right now, and a couple of minutes from now. She challenged me on ideas like, dont you want to go to college . Dont you want to make something with your life . Beyond just introducing those ideas, she connected me to the resources that i needed to make that happen. She did not just say, hey, dont you want to go to college . She said, lets find out information, addresses on the internet, lets find out how you can contact the schools. Lets take you to sit for your eight ct to sit for your s. A. T. s. She didnt just introduce ideas to me. What i did not know while i spent these five years in the movement is that not only was i actively dehumanizing other people, but that in order to do that and maintain that viewpoint and way of living, i also had become deeply dehumanized. I was much less than human. Beingvely had to work at in human. Reasons thisf the woman was so transformative in my life is because she initiated the process of rehumanizing me by choosing to first see me as a human with a broken and twisted sense that was being expressed in terrible ways. Rather than just as an ideologue, or someone who was not worth it. It is a hardsell to gather resources and to invest time and money into even discussions about reintegration of people from violent extremism. I had no idea that one of the main reactions in most of the Common Threads that are out would be a challenge to the very idea that people can fundamentally transform their lives. When we were talking about reintegration, it is paramount to examine whether or not you generally believe that people can transform . Are, either i never really believed that in the first place, or i still believe it now. Both of which are categorically untrue. It was an ideology that would an ideology that i would have died for that i hope i would die for. Utterlyf system is transformed. I believe in the coempowerment and genuine equity building of all human beings. The first focus we must have when we are talking about any sort of reintegration. Is it worth it . Really weresources spinning who have chosen these terrible belief systems, and put forth heinous actions, a lot of them . Mom of seven children ages almost 22 down to three years old. They are phenomenal human beings. They fight for equality and equitybuilding in their lives on a daily basis. They have certainly transformed my world. They transformed the communities in which they are apart on a daily basis, and i feel absolutely certain that they will have a piece of transforming the world. I think it is worth it. Worth it tot is invest resources. At things we look at things from a restorative point of view, and instead of just seeing the bad actions of one person, which they are. I hold personally responsibility for the choices that i made and the things that i did. People falling down rabbit holes, sliding down inelines, getting caught up that release from personal responsibility, and i believe that to be a mistaken terminology. It is important that i accept responsibility because it is the only way to get towards making ongoing meaningful amends. I first have to say, i did this. I take responsibility, and i am sorry. How do i make amends . However, when we talk about that, i so resonated with what jeff said, and the way i frame it is that we all havehowever, c needset beyond food, beyond food, shelter, clothing, and the way i see it, we all have a need to give love and be loved, to feeltruly heard, and to like we have a meaningful connection with something greater than ourselves. Every Single Person that i have ever worked with and helped disengage from violent extremism, this essential needset was broken, and that was compounded by a multitude of factors. From a Restorative Justice point of view, we have to see that bringing people back into the fold doesnt just help that individual, but it helps the entire network. You have to see that even though the actions are the responsibility of one person, that the ecosystem involves us all. Terrorists still have come from a family. They still have lived in communities. There are many layers of fracturing of those three basic needs that have led to their when we are trying to reintegrate them back into and more prosocial ways,l it helps heal us all. It heals the broken fabric that was part of the trajectory in word. Inward. When we heal those among us, we become stronger for it. I can leave my finger broken and i can still get through life probably with the use of my other fingers. Stronger will my hand be if all of my digits are thriving . Ats talk about that for second. I am a female. I became a violent white supremacist. There was a sense in which i found twisted sexual empowerment in my position inside a movement that is based on dehumanization and objectification of people seemed as weaker. Women fit into that category. I wasnt super successful with boys and dating. Withe, i could go out whoever i wanted. Myual assault was part of trajectory inward. It felt very much like sexual empowerment. I didnt know that at the time. I was just doing what i was doing. There was more to it to that. I was an active participant in my own radicalization, i amplified my willingness to use violence and take risks. I was not a passive agent who is of someone else in the movement. When we use words like jihadi we remove the agency and request for significance that we just heard about. Reinforcing ay lot of the viewpoints that exist with that. We remove also the ability for someone to take full responsibility, come to determine their actions, witches a crucial part of reintegrating into society. A crucial part of reintegrating into society. One last challenge in terms of the modern world, there are entire radicalized trajectories that exist nowhere except online. There are people who have stories of going into the movement and these thoughts spaces. When we talk about the movement in terms of the far right, all , they white nationalists are very overlapping ideologies. They get more and more convoluted and and mashed over the next several years. It will be harder to pinpoint a single ideology which looks like what we used to know it was. Existtrajectories dont anywhere outside the internet. There is no action taken. They have conversations in real life with other people where they bring their ideology there. The echo chamber is completely digital. This is a challenge for us to figure out how to navigate those spaces, and how do we address people and how do we treat their thesetories out of violent space ideologies . They have not traveled across the world. It is still a multinational network because its the internet. Its everywhere. They treat them as though are the same or different from People Living in the typical space . Do we offer the same sort of services . Do we prosecute them the same way . I dont know that i have answers. Is a trendthat there toward a a virtual caliphate in conjunction with the physical space. Obviously, the most catastrophic thing is when the Digital World leaks out and becomes catastrophic violence like we have seen over and over again. That, i will turn the microphone back over. All of you who have the influence to do so, whatever you , helpingenged about extremists,nt please remember my face. Please remember my story. Please rim or the value that my life has now. Value that mye life has now. If i did not have that chance, i would not be here and i would never be able to spend the rest of the breath of my life doing as much good as i possibly can. Thank you. [applause] shannon, thank you so much. Thank you for reminding us of the apathy and compassion accept theo really humanity in all of us. Thank you. Please allow me to introduce our n expert onr, he is a the way language affects cognition. He will talk about metaphors and how they shift perception and reduce stigma. Thank you so much. [applause] paul thank you for having me. Here, iideshow pops up am eight psychologist of language. I am interested generally in the ways in which we use language to think about complex problems. Im going to start with an obvious and silly point. Solving big problems is really hard. How do we fight world hunger . How can we fixate roca in Education System . Fix a broken Education System. Language marginalize people . These are big important questions. There is no magic bullet solution to any of them. Solvingiety, we are these kinds of problems. In my work, im interested in the metaphors as narratives that are embedded in these questions. They are embedded in the way we think about these problems. When we ask a question, were positioning world hunger as something we have to defeat. When we are fixing a broken Education System, we are thinking about the Education System as a machine or a vehicle that we can just fix. When we talk about crime epidemic, we are talking about crime is a virus. When we talk about marginalizing people we may be putting on a page. Windowe is an important into the world. When we are talking about big issues, we have some direct or sexual experience with them. We see depictions of world hunger, we see depictions of crime. Those kinds of issues are not treeame as a concept of a or a bird. We can go outside and see in here them and experience them directly. Sociopoliticalr issues, most of the information we get is through language, reading the newspaper, hearing other people talk about them. Primary anda critical source of information about the world. One way of thinking about the way language works is it describes the world. It describes our thoughts. Its a tool for communication. A followup question might be does it shape the way we think about the world . If so, how . Im going to talk through a few things quickly that illustrate the power of language to shape the way we see the world. Early work on this question was palmer in theeth 70s. Participants watched a video of a car crash. They were asked to estimate the speed of the cars. Varied the verb they used to ask the question. Asked about how fast was the car going when they smashed each other. Others were asked the same question but with the verb , orided instead of smashed bumped into, or hit, or contacted. There is variability in the emotional vividness of these verbs. Ofre is a corresponding sort variability in the speed estimates people gave. Likea really visit verb smashed was used, people gave a higher speed estimate. When a more neutral verb like contacted was used, people gave a lower speed estimate. They watched the same video. At some level, the questions were asking the same thing. Reflect on what you saw. Give us an estimate. There was a dramatic difference in the estimates people gave. In my own work, im interested in the power of metaphor to shape the way we think about complex problems. With narratives like this where people are exposed to one of two different metaphors. Thisof the information in report is the same. There is a different frame it. Participants will read Something Like crime is a virus or beast. Today, there are more than 55,000 criminal incidents a year, up by more than 10,000 per year. There is a worry that the city does not regain strength soon, more Serious Problems may start to develop. They read one of the two versions of the word. They are asked a simple question. In your opinion, what do they need to do to decrease crime . Weve done this with a free response format. Thats how we started doing the experiment. People would write things like Law Enforcement should be the Justice System harsher. When we were starting to do this work, we were looking through these responses. Two big categories emerged. Some people were emphasizing Enforcement Solutions and others were emphasizing social reform solutions. We would code the responses into these categories. See ifd look at and people read the virus version of the report would give different responses than people who read the beast version. We found that they did. People who read that crime was a beast would tend to emphasize Enforcement Solutions to crime. Increase the police force. Lengthen prison sentences. People who read the virus version would give relatively more social reform solutions. Fix the Education System. Create jobs for people. This was a dramatic effect. Different in a crime report. Inled to a 20 point shift the suggestions people were making. We also followed up using slightly different methods where people would evaluate policies supposed to just responding freely. May be the metaphors would make something come to mind more easily. It wasnt really making people think differently, maybe it wouldnt affect how people evaluate the policies we provided. Would provide some policies that were enforcement oriented and some that were reform oriented. People would read the same report, either the virus version or the beast version. They would pick one of these as their preferred method for solving crime. Multiplechoice format, evaluating actual policies, we saw the same effect. The first two were from the free response format. It is showing the proportion of responses. The beast version of the report are more enforcement oriented. People who read the virus version are more reform oriented. Those are the only two categories we were coding. We see this effect using a variety of different methods. Work that isof related that i want to talk about briefly and i will unpack play,gnitive things in the effects of obesity and looking at narratives for obesity. Obesity, iext of will use the term narrative rather than metaphor. They are very similar. We can talk about the similarities. Of popularvariety narratives about the causes of obesity. Some focus on the individual and limitations of the individual. Talking about being overweight has been a failure of selfregulation. At the other end of the extreme, we talk about how the environment can contribute to obesity. Food deserts, the lack of support, the stigma associated with being overweight. Those factors can contribute to obesity. We have run somesupport, studiet were similar in design to the crime studies, where people read a narrative about obesity and in thise judgments area study, one judgment people made was about blame, who deserves the blame for obesity . We had people answer questions attached to individual blame and environmental blame. Thinparticipants read the narrative that focused on the individual, others had a narrative it talked about overweight as an addiction. Its a disorder similar to that. At the other extreme was the environmental narrative. Ist we see in this plot after reading the emphasis of personal failure, people are happy to assign a lot of lame to an individual. They dont think the environment plays a big role. At the other end of the extreme, people who read about some of the societal and environmental causes of obesity are showing the opposite pattern. They are happy to attribute and are the environment much more forgiving to an individual. In this study, we asked people about their support for Public Policy designed to reduce the prevalence of obesity. We looked at policies that were more protective. Campaigns, treatment programs, as well as policies that were more punitive. Allowing insurers to charge higher premiums for people who were overweight. What we find is this measure of tracks almost perfectly onto how they are thinking about these treatment programs. The graph is tricky to see. The more that we blame an individual for being overweight, the more we support punitive policies and the more ognize the end environmental factors, the more we support protective policy. Growing stock of of languagee power to shape the way we see the world. Positive line of work in my opinion is work by carol black showing intelligence is something that is malleable, something that can grow and change thinking about education and the role of hard work and practice in education. There are a lot of issues, the problems i talked about in the context of obesity also apply to addiction. Talking about it as a disease has a profound effect on the way people think about addiction. It reduces stigma. It encourages people to get help if they need it. Enemyg about cancer as an of war has become a topic that has gone under a lot of research recently. There are tradeoffs associated with the metaphor. On the one hand, it seems to be very effective at raising money and grabbing our attention. Thats important. Its a very emotionally salient metaphor. Its an attention grabbing topic. Sontag talked about in andbook, this is supported can lead people with cancer feeling marginalized. If cancer is an enemy in war and the doctor is fighting the war, the person the cancer who has it is just a battlefield. Nobody wants to be a battlefield. The last experiment is a little bit raw. I wont go into it into much detail. Talking about immigration as a contamination in the nations body has negative effects on how people see immigration. Thats a prevalent framing recently. Shapes what we see. Its not just a tool for describing reality. Its a tool for thinking and it affects the way we think. How does language shape perception . Thats the main focus of my lab. I will talk about a few mechanisms here. Metaphor is the narrative, even stereotypes, a big part of their function as they ground novel and familiar terms. Ofs is basically the process categories asian. Categorization. If something tells me its a bird, i can make a variety of inferences about what that animal can do. Metaphors and stereotypes and narratives are culturally salient, familiar abstractions like bird categories or treat categories in some sense. They help us simplify and understand complexity. We talk about crime as a beast or a virus, we are leveraging what we know about forto solve simple problems the purpose of thinking about more complex ones. A beast problem is fairly straightforward. If a lion escapes from the zoo is terrorizing the city, we need to capture and contain it. If we have a crime epidemic in the community, we are not going to capture and contain that crime epidemic. We need to treat that problem. There is structure to these metaphors and narratives. When we use them to talk about novel situations, complex issues, we are leveraging that structure. Languagee functions of is to ground novel experiences in familiar terms. Another is that language died see,on, it shapes what we it shapes the process of making meaning. In this description of the crime problem, there is a lot of ambiguous reasons. We are talking about how pattison did not have vulnerabilities and how in the past five years the city Defense Systems have weakened. Those phrases are not necessarily calling out anything in particular. They are vague. What do they really mean . Mean . Oes it what makes a city vulnerable to crime . What does it mean the Defense System is weakened . Thatwe are finding is depends on the context in which they are used. Metaphor starts this paragraph, people call to mind the police force and criminal justice. Thats what it means to make a city wall able to crime. Just read a virus metaphor, the ambiguity in the phrases is resolved differently. People are thinking about infrastructure, poverty, education. Abouty we are talking problems is having a direct influence on the problems. Its also shaping how we seek out other information and how we interpret other parts of the world. How we resolve that ambiguity. A followup experiment, one of the ways we tested that interpretation is by moving to metaphor from the beginning of the report to the end. In that situation, we dont get any metaphor framing. When they are at the beginning of the report, we see people who read that crime is a beast or more enforcement oriented. When those phrases are presented at the end, there is no difference. When people of already resolve the ambiguities without the help of metaphoric labels prime in them to think one way or another, the metaphors presented at the end are not reshaping or reconfiguring those mental representations. Language guides our attention. Language also evokes emotion. Thatork illustrates nicely. Moreerb smashed is much emotionally salient than the word contacted. People to give higherspeed estimates. The last point i want to make about how language shapes the way we think is that the process is often unconscious. In the production side and on the comprehensive side. Comprehension side. In the studies we conducted on crime, in some versions we would ask them to identify the part of the point report that was most influential. Online the part of the report that led you to give your suggestion. People would identify numeric information. They thought they were being really objective. Only 5 would identify the metaphor is having any influence on the way they were thinking. Salientt a particularly feature of the report. In followup studies, we would ask more targeted questions. We would ask people at the end of the study if they could remember which metaphor they got. About half could remember and half didnt. Whether we saw these framing effects among both groups. We might expect to see the framing impact on people who remember the metaphor and used it actively to think about the problems. Metaphor,forgot the its unlikely they were actively using it to think about the problems. We asked those questions one minute later. We find is the metaphor framing effect among both groups, people who remember the metaphor are showing the effect and people who dont are also showing the impact of the metaphor. At least in some circumstances, we feel like we have good evidence that people are not aware of the influence of language on the way they are thinking. What about the capacity for language to stigmatize and build compassion . Level, stigma communication creates simple categories, us versus them. It assigns blame to them. Negative emotions, discussed, anger, fear. It has real effects on people. It generates negative attitudes. It isolates the groups and individuals who are stigmatized. On the other end of the spectrum, impassive communication situates a problem in a broader, more complex ecosystem. It evokes more neutral or positive associations. It engenders compassionate, attitude, connecting individuals and groups. To conclude, language is a window into the world. It is our primary source of information about lots of important sociopolitical problems. What we see. Its not just the tool for describing what we are thinking. It medals in the thinking process and the perception process. It does this by grounding novelty in familiar terms, guiding our attention, activating the motion, often unconscious. Thank you. [applause] will all watch what we are saying. We know the power of language. Thank you so much, paul. Speaker is a sociologist who has studied reconciliation in rwanda. She will give us an applied example that language plays and reconciliation. In welcominge holly. [applause] holly good morning. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for coordinating this fantastic event. As im sure you are aware, in rwanda genocide, hundreds of thousands of civilians took up arms against their neighbors. They grabbed machetes and clubs. I. Ey went out to hunt tuts one Million People were killed in about three months. In the aftermath of this genocide, the government held people accountable by creating a Justice System. As you see in this photo, this meant that the incarceration rate soared in the aftermath of the genocide. People have been returning home. Almost always they return to the same committees were they committed violence. Sometimes they return to the same village as their victim costs families. Victims families. I was asked tod, talk about this as a case study. To contextualize it so you know the broader study, there are three questions. Had we theorize the integration . What obstacles do people convicted face as they Reenter Society . Family what are the factors associated with integration . I cant tell you about all of this. I am going to start by telling you briefly about what guides the project. Im happy to talk more during our limited discussion afterward. I will tell you very briefly about the context of rwanda and ive been following 200 people there returned to their communities. 100 people about what they thought about this reintegration. About three talk insights into the language. Thats relevant to our discussion today. I will conclude with broader implications. I have notes because im going to try hard to stay to my 15 minute limit. If im speaking to fast, please raise your hand. I want to have time for q a. I am a sociologist and eight criminologist. Criminologist of an studying reentry for decades. Its important to note that political bias crimes are different from other crimes like homicide or rate or burglary. They do have a lot in common. Parallels from criminology. ,riminologist look at reentry its called labeling theory. It posits that labels matter. How we label ourselves, this can influence not only are self concept, but how we interact in the world. Peoples identities and are described and classified. Its important because people who are labeled as deviance or often face new problems associated with this label. Demonizey where we individuals with these labels, they faced little chance at respect and reentry within a stream society. Theyis important because can turn to other communities that will accept them, sometimes violent subcultures. When we think about reintegration, we have to think about how people label themselves and understand themselves and how their communities label them as well. As i mentioned, im looking at this in the case of rwanda. This is funded by the u. S. National science foundation. Tos basically enabled me create a set of people tried for genocide in rwanda. About 200,000 people were found guilty of participating in the genocide, specifically crimes against people. 6 were women. You can see the figure here. Its fairly small. Post genocide court system split crimes into categories. Categories one and two were talent crimes against people. They were met with prison sentences or Community Work camps. Wereory three, these against property, looting during the genocide. These were met with fines. I focus specifically on people who were found guilty of category one and category to crimes. Im following 200 people as they leave present. First talked with them in prison in 2017. Ive been following since their release. Of these 200 individuals, 180 were convicted of genocide. Convicted of homicide. We will talk about the comparisons during the question and answer. 19 of these individuals are women. They did participate in the genocide. Sentences ranged from eight years to more than 25 years. They are reentering in urban and rural communities. Talking with im them at set times and i talked with them before they left resin. We asked about their prison experience. Then ive been finding them at their homes, sometimes a new Global Neutral location. Im currently at the oneyear mark in particular. Im also looking at Community Members. I interviewed 100 people about what they thought about the people coming back to their neighborhoods. When i go back in september, we will talk about those people again. Its important to note there has been little attrition. Three people have recently baited and are back in prison. None of the people who left are back in prison. Its an important point. What i would like to do with my remaining time is tell you about three things relevant to the discussion. How do they label themselves . How do the talking with the violence they committed . The second is how the communities are talking about them. Pointird is an important about social factors that shape the narratives and the reintegration experience. Begin, how people label themselves. If reentry means something, it will involve somebody who was not just physically relocated back to their community, but moral inclusion. When people return to society, this means they have rights of passage. Thats a ritual that signifies the change in stage or age in life span. This is across cultures. You getting about graduation parties, rituals that mark a transition. When you think about people who are reintegrating from violent extremism, you might think these are important because they allow someone to have a clear break from their prior life and reentry into community. What i have found for some individuals in a rhonda rwanda, they have told me about when they come home they were met with a family dinner, Community Members welcome them back. Many people have been given space to talk about what they did it, why they did it, take responsibility, ask how they look forward to moving on. A couple of examples, one person , aked about it was a joy celebratory moment and people were happy in supportive. They brought porridge. They were supportive. Another person told me there are people i never ask acted to help greet me. Come and give me small amounts of money. These rights of passage influenced how these individuals were talking about themselves. One person shared this is an amazing situation beyond comparison. It kind of corrected my feelings that people hated me. Many people have these arratives of redemption, its stark line between who they were during the genocide and prison and who they are today. You see many examples here. I became a citizen again. I am a new person now. These are important. They point to a couple of important takeaways. Importance ofhe firstperson language. Someone said i am no longer a genesee dare. Strugglede really with that. It placed the action before the person. Is a separation between who they are and their actions. This is important. I heard this time and time again. We have it here in the u. S. Someone who committed a felony, dont talk about them as a felon. This matters and how they see themselves. Many people said they strove to engage in Committee Activities that align themselves. They went to church, they went to meetings, they tried to show their neighbors that they were changed. They saw themselves in that change. Its important because it signifies communities have to have space for people to have this type of interaction. It might be voting. It might be community service. Communities have to make space for people to be engaged. They need to live up to this positive view of themselves. Turning quickly to some of the community narratives, having these individuals see themselves is how the community sees them. We talked already about blame and responsibility. Many of the people take responsibility or their actions. Something thats very important in rwanda is there is a complex structural view of what happened during the genocide. While people to take responsibility, many rwandans will tell me, to go back to colonialism and talk about how belgium created divisions between the people. They talk about how local leaders created a structure in which the genocide was possible. They encourage people to participate. This is important. It does not necessarily take away the blame, it does allow people to contextualize actions and allows the communities to understand why people did what they did. They dont just see individuals as bad people. They see them as good people who made bad actions. The actions were shaped by a confluence of factors. Some were shaped by these broader structural factors. This humanized them as they came back. Between a difference this and shaming. Reintegrated shaming is what we want to strive toward. It reaccepts someone as a member of the community. Disassociated 70 from their actions in recognizing that good people can do terrible things, also based on motivations and social structures. This is important in the narrative we tell about violence, especially in communities that are accepting and reintegrating people. Goally, i will try to briefly, this is not monolithic. We talk about reintegration as if everyone is the same. This is not the case. Location, your age or gender, this shakes your experience. It doesnt shake up people view you. Twowanda, let me make examples. As i talk about these experience people are having, they are being welcomed and having this great experience, its the people who are fairly poor during the genocide. They are better able to lay claim to this merit of narrative that there was a complex structure. The people who are local leaders in the community do not benefit from this complex narrative. Theyre the ones that do not tell stories of people welcoming them. They are having a much worse experience. More importantly, gender. The women in my study are much worse than the men. Most of the men have spouses, most of the women dont. They are far worse off economically. Who is tied to ideas about can engage in violence. Places, there is the ideas it meant of the ones who can engage in violence. The women who do it are evil or different. I encourage you to check this book out. In this case, the women are seen as different, as evil or bad. They are not benefiting from some of these narratives within society. About aup and talk couple of takeaways, firstperson first language. Its tremendously important to talk about someone who engaged in terrorism rather than genocide. I heard this from the people who tell me this hurts them on a daily basis, han solo still calls them a perpetrator. They are trying to disassociate themselves from us. Its important to mark these transitions. Markers inot of society, would markers in society, would people get into a violent extremist group. It marks a transition. We fail to have them at the other side. Many people have told me that some of the small markers, whether its a couple of friends or they do something to help them heal like they have made a transition. Point, its tremendously important. This doesnt take away their blame. It does situate their actions in a broader social structure. It exerts a lot of influence on the individual. Willly, the experience vary by location. Thathink about programs aid integration, we have to be speaking about how the gender, the socioeconomic status will shape how they view themselves in a variety of ways. We must keep this in mind. With that, thank you so much. I look forward to the discussion. [applause] thank you so much to everyone. Incredibly content filled our half. We dont have much time for questions as we had hoped. Im going to abdicate and asked the first one. We will go to the first three questions from the audience. Quickly identify yourself. If its a comment, speak to them afterwards for commentary. We are looking forward to questions. You are outside your laying here. Heard as weouve think about how we reintegrate people who committed crimes in this country into your part of ohio even, what have you heard today that you think would make the most sense guiding professional peace builders as we go forward . Other questions . We are trying to take three. In terms of reintegration of what would you say the biggest differences are in the programming from criminal Justice Programs for gang members and other violent offenders. What is the biggest differences . Is there a third . I want to acknowledge that i feel out of my lane. In terms of thinking about specific language in this domain it, how people are integrated into society and the kind of language to use, i dont know if i have a specific question. To a of my work points basic distinction between language and metaphor as narrative that is simplifying. Example for crime is a simplifying metaphor. It makes things straightforward. The solution is very clear. Systemic when metaphors present a broader problem and the context. Points fromake away the work ive been doing related abouts year is to think that distinction, situate the context. Its critical. A couple of things. Question, i will probably just add that i think this complex narrative of the structural factors of crime could be recognized. People who engage in crime are not just acting on individual motivations. The communities matter, there are a host of factors that shape this. We dont talk about that. We just bring it back to the individual. Whether or not the government intended to do this, they did create this complex narrative, its an interplay. We can learn from that. Versus gang members, a couple of things. Im not an expert on reintegration here. So the differences in rwanda that have been striking, they are preparing the community for people to reenter. When we study this, we mostly focused on the individual, not a what the communities think. Because of the massive level of the reentry, we want to prepare Community Members that people will be coming home to talk about what drove them to do it they did. Is working, it could be adopted in the u. S. I have heard several programs of done something similar. This is not a question that looks at the community. U. S. ,y difference in the the importance of jobs. Rwanda, most individuals have a fairly agrarian lifestyle. In the u. S. , when people leave prison or any situation that left them away from their community, having a job is important. Also to help them feel like they are a productive member of society. Programs in the u. S. That emphasize the importance of jobs are really important. In rwanda, it hasnt been as important because most are farmers on their own land. Be remiss if i did not mention the importance of jobs and similar factors in the u. S. We will take two more. First . Thank you. I am from equal access international. Have, anybody who is involved in this space, our Research Identifies critical significance belonging, all of these things, agency is a critical factor. If those are critical to engagement and i appreciate the disengagement, what examples do you have of programs that work to rehabilitate . They still tap into that need for significant agency. We are not stripping away those critical pieces. Viable fortentially social transformation. We are just taking a way the violence. Thank you. I am with the state department. As we are trying to reform, government actors Like Police Officers or military officials, trying to reverse his history of is there any guidance for changing the stigma and the narrative . Somebody mentioned the use of counter messaging to take people on this radicalization process and steer them away from the path. What you dotioned when there is no other place to go and you are already on that path area can you speak to the putting peoplend in a different direction . We can take one more. It is great in the process. , thexample that i know program equipped individuals with alternative means for significance. In a varietyining of domains. They endow them with significance. They show them a way of integrating into society through professional activity that are alternatives to violence. Themust not underestimate importance of violence as a primordial means of gaining significance. Individual who was well integrated, he worked as a translator. How do you feel now that youve integrated . He said i felt that are as a fighter. There is something about dominance that evades pervades. Animals do it. Little children do it. There is something not violence to conqueres efforts it through alternative means. Activity professional and the community integration. Its critical. If you are integrated in the likely to beis is effective. In america, it doesnt really exist. There, doing out the work of disengagement or reintegration. But we dont have an exit program in any real sense of the word. Messaging, iounter just did some work with one of. He Tech Companies working on trying to identify some counter messages that are out there. That might be effective. I think it can be effective at particular points, if you simplistically look at the trajectory of radicalization as a parabola. Most of the efforts are focused on the vertex, which is what i believed to be the most difficult time to actually get someone to disengage. For counter messaging to be legitimizeit has to the grievances that are already by the people were beginning to delve into the radicalization process. Lots of the material prop out there, particularly in terms of wing and rightht nationalist face, does not legitimize the grievances that feel. White man already it blows them off. It misses completely. The other thing is that it has to hit its target demographic. Im a middleaged white woman. I have no business being on ticktock. Is counter content that can be hyper effective there, because thats where young people are. Thats where the bad actors are utilizing the spaces effectively to spread their messaging. We have to make sure the content we are putting out is hitting and how, theyere, are consuming the materials in the first place. And this is where counter messaging goes wrong. It has to offer an alternative pathway. Iscan just be being a nazi bad. We all know that, most of us know that. But it does not give them anything else to do to deal with the grievances they have, to find the meeting meaning, the sense of community they have. Can think counter messaging be effective along their trajectory. But it misses its mark overwhelmingly. I want to add to the counter messaging issue, it would not be effective if it was disjointed with the general elements of radicalization. Thehannon pointed out, if counter messages insulting the individual, labeling them in a way that is derogatory, that will miss the point. If the counter messaging is devoid from the support of the network, it will miss the point. Countering mess counter messaging has to be integrated and identify alternative means of significance of fulfilling that basic motivation, and validated by a group. If you address the counter messaging as an individual, with the Group Remains untouched, the individual will quickly revert to the old way of thinking. Because individuals are embedded the belief in their worldviews. The counter messaging has to be integrated with the hope napoli of fact a whole napoli pali of efforts. An attempt to radicalize individuals through complex theological arguments was ineffective, because people were radical dont really care about the theological intricacies, they care about becoming heroes. The narrative is a crushed a crutch, a rationalization for their motivation. Integrated and validated. A couple of other things to add. On the counter messaging point, this is not my area but i would like to point out that the messages people receive, and the types of violence people are talking about can be different. I talked about genocide, the average age of someone who participated at the time was 34 come out much older than a lot of the ages he will see from people participating in violent extremism. Rwanda participation was framed as a way to stand up and protect their families and communities. This is a very different message than what people might be getting in other circumstances. So i wanted to add a note to the types of messages people are receiving, because this will vary. And on the question of governments, i must admit i dont have a great answer but i have a couple of thoughts. Leaders whohe local are part of the government are not having great reintegration experiences, i think its in part because the dominant narrative does not talk about the structural factors at play for them, but places a lot of the g8 the blame on them. I think sociologist or organizations could tell you that bureaucratic structures are powerful. There is space to talk about the different structural factors. The other thing i will note about the case of rwanda is that they have made a concerted those in theolve Transitional Justice process. Many afterward said they did not trust the government but were able to engage with people at a local level within their community. This helped them regain some trust in the government. Governmenton the point to add on the government point. What struck me as important, related to that, is a leadership issue. If the issue if the leadership believes in the government, the power of the government to affect change and do good you are not fighting such an uphill battle. Like there is a big uphill battle to fight right now. Canerms of the language, i imagine a narrative that relationshipe between the people and the government. And how government organizations really are just people, representatives of the country. And emphasizing that could break down some of us versus them barriers. I was going to take another round of questions but i recognize we are over time. I will take this opportunity to thank my Incredible Team here, michael with chris and and devon, they brought this event together seamlessly. Thank you for the hard work. And thank you to my incredible experts have joined us who have brought incredible amounts of knowledge and information for those working on violent extremism every day. We have cross comparative studies. Thank you. And on behalf of everyone here, thank you for joining and we look forward to participating more in the future. Enqueue. [applause] thank you. [applause] conversation [indistinct conversations] [indistinct conversations] [indistinct conversations] heres some of our other live coverage coming out. At 1 00, the st. Louis Federal Reserve Bank President talks about Monetary Policy and the economy. We will be live from the National Economist club in washington d c. At 2 00, andy parker, the father of a slain tv reporter talks about his concerns over immunity protections for Internet Service providers for a video of his daughters death that was posted online. And House Oversight and Reform Committee chair, elijah cummings, speaks at the National Press club in washington. Live coverage begins at 1 00 eastern on cspan. U. S. Ambassador to roster, jon huntsman, turned in his Resignation Letter to President Trump this morning. The sully tribune is working reporting that he is leaving the job october 3 and will return to utah to consider a run for governor. He added that he had told the president he originally agreed to serve two years in the position. Cspan has live coverage of the 2020 president ial candidates at the iowa state fair, starting thursday at 1 45 with montana governor, steve bullock, followed by joe biden. We are live at 10 00 eastern julianan castro orourke. Beto we will also be live with other candidates. Watch the 2020 president ial candidates live at the iowa state fair, starting thursday on cspan. Watch anytime online at onpan. Org, or listen live the go using the free cspan radio app. President trump has declared that china is a currency manipulator. At this Hudson Institute forum on u. S. Economic threats, panelists discuss the merits of creating a National Economic Defense Center that could analyze and respond to threats to the u. S. Economy