Transcripts For CSPAN Washington Journal 07302019 20240714

Challengesscusses facing taxpayers with the complexity of new tax laws. We will take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. Washington journal is next. Host good morning. Its tuesday, july 30, 2019. The Senate Continues its workweek today. At 10 00 a. M. Eastern, theyll have votes at 11 30 and lunches afterwards. The house will meet in the brief pro forma session later this morning. Were with you the next three hours on the washington journal. We begin today gauging your level of concern about the security of the 2020 elections. We want to know if you think congress and the white house have done enough to ensure the integrity of the incomes vote, which is now just over 15 months away. Give us a call this morning. Phone lines are open. Democrats, 2027488000. Republicans, 2027488001. Independents, 2027488002. You can also catch up with us on social media. On twitter, its cspanwj. On facebook, its facebook. Com cspan. Very good Tuesday Morning to you. Start calling in now. Were having this conversation about Election Security the morning after Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell took to the floor of the senate to defend his record on that topic. This is the story from the hill newspaper today. Mcconnell sparking a firestorm of criticism last week when he blocked attempts by chuck shumer and senator richard blumeen that will of connecticut to pass Election Security legislation by unanimous consent. Under senate rules, any one senator can try to pass a bill, but any one senator can object. The two pieces of legislation are supported largely by democrats, giving them next to no chance of passing the g. O. P. Controlled Senate Without a vote. One of the bills would require the use of paper ballots, the other would require candidates and campaigns or family members to notify the f. B. I. About assistance offers from foreign governments. After mcconnell took that action last week to block those two bills, as the story noted, a firestorm of criticism. Heres one piece of criticism that appeared to irk Mitch Mcconnell. This is from the opinion pages of the Washington Post. Its from july 26, the headline, Mitch Mcconnell is a russian asset. Mitch mcconnell took to the floor of the senate yesterday to respond. Heres what he had to say. So mr. President , my differences with democrats on complicated matters of election law are the kind of disagreements we used to be able to have without Mainstream Media outlets screaming that one side is traitorous. This congress, this entire country, only works when we refuse to let baseless smears displace real debate. Benjamin franklin said we have this republic if we can keep it. And among other things, keeping our republic means we cant let modernday mccarthyism win. So heres my commitment. No matter how much they lie, no matter how much they bully, i will not be intimidated. For decades, ive used my senate seat to stand up to russia and protect the United States of america. Im proud of my record. Im proud that its right there in black and white. And liars cannot gas light it away. Host that was yote floor of the senate. Heres todays lead editorial from the wall street journal, saying that theyre happy that he took to the floor of the senate to do that. They write the truth is that mr. Mcconnell has been far tough other Vladimir Putin than most democrats were across other administrations. He pushed for tougher sanctions than the obama crowd wanted. And he supported an act that allow the u. S. To censure cronies. The top democrat in the chamber, chuck schumer, took the floor of the senate as well to respond to Mitch Mcconnell. Heres what he had to say yesterday. Russia did interfere in our 2016 elections. Every intelligence agency, everyone whos looked at this, is 100 clear russia interfered. Two, russia is l attempt to interfere in the 2020 elections and is already doing it. That is not only what special counsel mueller said, but f. B. I. Director ray and many other appointees in the intelligence and counterintelligence agencies appointed by President Trump. Three, the republican majority has done nothing, absolutely nothing, to deal with this problem. So heres an easy way for leader mcconnell to silence the critics who accuse him of blocking Election Security. Stop blocking it. Leader mcconnell doesnt have to put the bills that we proposed, democrats, or the bill the house has passed. There are bipartisan bills, and we can debate issue. Americas democracy is at risk when a foreign power interferes. And so if leader mcconnell doesnt like being criticized on Election Security, i challenge him. Lets debate it on the floor with amendments. I challenge him. Support additional appropriations for states to harden their election systems. In both cases, leader mcconnell has not done that. In fact, he has said he opposes more money to the states, even though they say, i believe it is 21 attorneys general have said they need more money. Leader mcconnell, despite our requests, has not only blocked unanimous consent requests, but not put any other legislation on the floor to deal with this. Host that was the scene on the floor of the senate today. As the story notes, two electionrelated bills have passed the senate this year, but more sweeping legislation offered by house democrats, a move by house democrats, has hit a wall in the senate. Republicans argue theyve done plenty to help secure future elections, including providing 380 million to states for Election Security efforts last years government funding bill. This morning on the washington journal, asking you, how concerned are you about Election Security in 2020 . Phone lines, as usual, for democrats, republicans, and independents. Well start on the republican line. Todd is in brentwood, california, good morning. Caller hi. Such the trendy question. Just like every other morning. I feel like im watching cnn. Kobe and biden, as you know, they were responsible in 2015 for their inaction against foreign election and interference that youre so scared of. The democrats talked to mueller for six hours. They didnt show any interest during those six hours, did they . Exactly what are you so scared that russia is going to do . Host thats the question to our viewers this morning. Are you scared . Caller [laughter] do i sound scared . You know, russia has interfered in our election since 1917. As you know, weve interfered with theirs. Everyone interferes with everybodys election. Why dont you ever show any interest in human traffic on the boreder . You love to talk about the border. Ask the same question over and over for a year. Host so todd, we certainly have talked about that topic on this program. We probably will again down the road. Appreciate you watching. This is rob out of new york city, a democrat. Good morning. Caller good morning. Thank you for cspan. In response to that first caller, except this is a discussion about russian meddling in the age of mputers, not 1917 or 1937 or whatever, where the danger is computer hacking, etc. Perhaps changing election results. Any attempt at reasonable discussion by the other side is seen as becoming cnn, i think hats what his expression was. We have computers and internet that can be hacked and manipulated. Its the modern age now. You know, to think that election can be hacked into is outrageous. Host before you use the term, what are you so scared of, are you scared . Caller no, im not scared, ut, you know, im energized to try to get control of the situation. You dont get scared, you get active. Mitch mcconnell is a blowhard. This is a guy saying hes being accused of lying. Whats up is down. Whats left is right. Hes reversing it on its head. Chuck schumer said it exactly as it is. When chuck shumer is trying to talk intelligently about the problem and Mitch Mcconnell is playing reverse mind game politics with it, like the way our president does it, when you have someone whos playing reverse mind games, truth is up , lies is up, truth is down, left is right, its constant mind games. Thats the issue with someone when you have a president whos constantly telling falsehoods, constantly covering up for his shortcomings, his inability to actually think, read, study, know the problems of the world. Hes not a worldly guy. Hes not a thinker. Hes not a guy that knows he talks about countries, he talks about shole countries and all this. He doesnt know the world. The only thing he knows is his petty game of media politics host we got your point there rob. This is from waldorf, maryland, robert, go ahead, independent. Caller good morning. The security problem we have with our elections today is from within. The Democrats Party has allowed foreigners, illegals, to come into the country. In maryland, we give them drivers licenses, puts them automatically on the registration to vote. Theyre doing it throughout the country. Thats where your problem lies. You got Broward County will find votes as they need it. The problem with our election system is the democrats undermining it, allowing foreigners to vote who have no right to vote in our country. Host robert, did you watch the mueller hearings last week . Caller why would i watch something that has nothing to do its just nonsense you mean to watch somebody try to overthrow a duel elected government and the media try to help them do that . Host no, what mueller said his investigation found about ongoing efforts to interfere in the 2020 election by russia and your thoughts on what he had to say about that. Caller i think hes the head of an attempted coup detat. Thats what he said. Thats what all of this is, an attempt to overthrow the president of the United States. They should be charge and had dealt with accordingly. Host this is Robert Mueller from last week on capitol hill. One of the most striking things in your report is that the Internet Research agency, not only undertook a social Media Campaign that you asked, but they were able to organize political rallies after the election. Youre committee issued a report saying that rush active measures are growing with frequency and intensity, and including their expanded use of groups such as the i. R. A. , and these groups pose a significant threat to the United States and our allies in upcoming elections. Would you agree with that . Robert mueller yes. In fact, other areas we have to look at, many more companies not companies, but many more countries are developing the capability to replicate what the russians have done. You alluded to making sure all the elements of the federal government should be working together. Do you have a suggestion on a strategy to do that to counter this disinformation . Not overarching. Is this, in your investigation, did you think that this was a single attempt by the russians to get involved in our election, or did you find evidence to suggest theyll try to do this again . It wasnt a single attempt. Theyre doing it as we sit here, and they expect to do it in the next campaign. Host that exchange during the House Intelligence Committee hearing last week on capitol hill. Of course, if you want to watch it in its sbirktse you can do so, our website, cspan. Org, search bar at the top of the page. Just type in mueller, youll find it. Joe is up next. From georgia, republican. Joe mccutchen, is that you . Caller yes, i love cspan. Im not a bit scared. I think trumps going to win a huge landslide election. We have a great senator. Im announcing a luncheon today that jim jordan and jodie are the two best taxpayer champions in america, and we got an incredible candidate running for congress who i think will be the greatest taxpayer champion of all time. So john, im not a bit concerned. Im fired up. Im energized. Trumps going win the biggest landslide n. My county, he got 83 of the time. This time i think hell get at least 90 . Host joe, your interest in taxpayer issues, you always note it when you come on. Stick around today. At 9 00, were going to be joined by nina on the son, the i. R. S. National Taxpayer Advocate. She retired from that post tomorrow. Shes stopping by today one more time to talk with viewers. Stick around for that if you can, joe. Caller thank you, john. Love cspan. Jodie and jim, two taxpayer champions. Host got your point. Thanks, joe. Veronica is next, a democrat. How concerned are you about Election Security in 2020 . Came im very concerned. Not only am i concerned, im at the point of despair. Im a democrat only in name. I moved here 30 years ago from new jersey, which is an open primary state, in which i could select the person who was running rather than the party. I moved out theyre take care of my aging parents. My mother informed me, no, you cant vote in the primary unless you pick one. So because my mother was an f. D. R. Democrat, i picked democrat. But i have voted my conscience, lets say, and my information, and so i used to vote for charlie dent, who was a republican, my kind of republican, but i couldnt vote for him in the primary. Of course, hes gone now, and pennsylvania has been redistricted. I used to be in district 15, and now its district 9. And i am very concerned about the security here. When i went to vote in the midterms, i asked the ladies at the polls, some of whom were personal friends of my mother before she passed, before she had a paper ballot backup. And they said, oh, no, no, no, we dont need that. I said you dont understand, this is a different age. This is an age in which paper is more secure if its done correctly than any kind of fancy dancy electronics that you think will keep, not just russians, but others, foreign nationals, from interfering. Anyway longer believe my vote will count. Of course, i felt that for a long time. This is a solidly, ruby red part of pennsylvania. Were in what James Carville used to call alabama. He talked about, you have the more liberal pittsburgh, educated elite or whatever in the west, and you have philadelphia in the southeast, and everything between is alabama, as he would have pronounced it. Host you mentioned your concern about having the paper ballot backup. That was one of the pieces of legislation that democrats tried to move by unanimous consent last week directly in the wake of the mueller hearings and the objection coming from the republican side. So that now would have to go to a vote in the senate as opposed to moving by unanimous consent. Were you concerned about those two bills last week being stopped . Caller im sorry. I cant hear you. Im on the phone. Host just finish your thought, veronica. Caller Mitch Mcconnell talked about the bill that two bills that came forward last week as being partisan, but theres a way to approach that. Its been done in the past. Im well educated, overeducated for the area in which i live. I have a postgraduate degree, but i am 78. And i remember a time when if the house and the senate disagreed, they got together and worked a way out by compromise. And that is missing now, and its got me scared. Ts got its got me fighting for our democracy. I know that sounds like a cliche, but Mitch Mcconnell, shame on him. Someone recently called joe scarborough, the former republican active from florida, who has a morning show now, probably on as we speak, who called him moscow mitch. And i thought that was a little harsh, but perhaps if people made it into a bumper sticker, because mitch himself calls him the grim reaper, the place where the bills from the house go to die. And that doesnt sound like anything that the Founding Fathers or anyone who really came after and believed in our country working properly every believed in. Host after Mitch Mcconnell blocked those two bills that democrats hoped to move by unanimous consent last week, concern by democrats yesterday keeping the pressure on via their twitter pages and news appearances. This is ron widen, senator from oregon, member of the senate Intelligence Committee, saying on twitter yesterday, we are 463 days away from the 2020 election, and Mitch Mcconnell has yet to make any concrete steps to protect our federal elections from hacking or foreign interference. Appearing on msnbc yesterday was the democrat from minnesota, teen smith. This was her appearance. Theres a report that said every single state in the nation, 50 states, has had an incursion of russians at least attempting to influence the elections in those states. So this is a serious problem. A couple of weeks ago, i wrote a commentary saying that i thought that Mitch Mcconnells leadership in the senate was a big, fat waste, because theres so many pieces of legislation that we should be voting on that were not. Im increasingly thinking that his leadership is a big fat threat. As Robert Mueller said last week, as we sit here, the russians are trying to figure out how to interfere in our elections in 2020, and yet we sit and we sit and we sit in the United States senate. Its just wrong. Host you saw earlier in our program, the response from Mitch Mcconnell on the floor of the senate. He took his twitter page as well. He said modernday mccartyism is poison for american democracy. He tweeted yesterday that it is shameful to comply that policy disagreements make other side unpatriotic. The people who push such unhinged smears are doing putins destabilizing work for him. Asking you this morning about how concerned you are about Election Security in 2020. John, south carolina, next, republican, good morning. Caller thanks for having me on. I think its comical that the left excuse me, the now socialist senators are screaming about stuff coming out of the senate, when how many years did they go under obama where they didnt even produce a budget. When it comes to the security, mueller didnt even go into any of the aspects of the coup that was perpetrated on the American Public to find out, oh, wow, thats part of a security aspect when it comes to the stability of the elected offices. When youre talking about these elections, unfortunately, we are at a point in this country where i think its kind of ironic. Usually the republicans are at war with each other because they will vote their principle and not coalesce behind a particular candidate. Now the socialists are at war with nancy pelosi and the establishment democrats because the democrat old school, they know exactly how poisonous socialists is to the Mainstream Media. Host thats john in south carolina. This is loretta in cleveland, ohio, democrat. Good morning. Caller good morning. Good morning. First id like to say good morning to my good morning, jody. Ood morning. Good morning, america. Host for those who dont follow along, thats several of he folks who follow us cspanwj while were on the air. Go ahead, loretta. Caller right. I am very concerned. Im concerned because when Mitch Mcconnell refused to go along with obama when they first place found out about the russian interference, senator reason the media did not put it out, so the lights were flashing then. And you, too, cspan, you should be starting from the beginning of this. You should have when mitch refused to work with obama to initially stop russia. That was back in, what, 2016, 2015, i believe. And then there was an article about a week or two ago about Mitch Mcconnell receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from russia, from a Russian Oligarch to start some type of company or something in his home state. Host loretta, i hadnt seen that one. Where was that one . Caller pardon me . Host where was that article . Caller i said about two weeks ago, there was an article where Mitch Mcconnell received hundreds of thousands of dollars. Host right, i was asking where that article was from, just so i can try find it to bring it up for viewers. Caller pardon me . Host just go ahead and finish your thought, loretta. Caller well, it all boils down to the fact that Mitch Mcconnell has allowed our borders to be open. See, theyre claiming democrats and the southern border opening and people walking across the border. Mitch has left our signer and borders open. Host got your point. Thats loretta in ohio. This is sheila in massachusetts, republican, good morning. Caller good morning, and thank you for taking my call. I would just like to say, i think its a terrible disservice that cspan does when you promote this program at insinuates that every states were affected by russian interference. It didnt happen. It was not one vote that was changed. Russia has been doing this for decades, and we have been doing the same. And you also failed to mention that barack obama sent an entourage over to israel to try and sway the election away from netanyahu. Its terrible that people think that the russians got the ability to change anybodys mind in this country, so we obama did, t like send people over and here directly spend money in this country trying to affect our elections. Shoip sheila, were not trying to insinuate anything. Were asking, does it concern you coming into the 2020 election . Caller well, the amount of money that russia spent on trying to interfere with our election, we ought to commend them, because it was minute compared to what we spend on elections and our security. We ought to be damn afraid that our National Security isnt up to snuff, that russians are so far ahead us, that they would be able to hack into our system and change votes, its ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. The Mainstream Media and programs like this seem to insinuate that the russians were able to change votes. I heard on one of the programs yesterday that 53 of americans actually think that the russians changed the vote. Thats not trufmente i wish that people would get that straight. Host sheila, this is what the senate Intelligence Committee concluded in their recent report, the recent investigation on Election Security and election systems in all 50 states. They found they were targeted by russians in 2016, an effort more far reaching than previously acknowledged and one largely undetected by states and federal officials at the time. This is the story on the release of that report from last week, the New York Times, while the bipartisan reports warnings that the United States remains vulnerable in the next election is clear, its findings were heavily redacted when it was released last week. The report, the first volume of several to be released from the committees investigation, came 24 hours after Robert Muellers warnings on capitol hill. Heres some of what that report said, this taken from that report. The Committee Found no evidence that vote tallies were altered or that voter registry files were deleted or modified, though the committee and the intelligence contests insight re limited, actors conducted an unpress detected level of activity in the runup to the 2016 elections. That quote coming from that report released last week. Some of the recommendations of that report also listed, again, in that heavily redacted report, and were expecting more reports in the coming days. But here are some of the recommendations that the senate Intelligence Committee had, again, in the republicancontrolled chamber, to reinforce states privacy in running elections to create measures, to improve information gathering and sharing about threats to secure electionrelated cybersystems, take steps to secure the vote itself and provide assistance for the states. If you want to read that report that was released last week, you can read what was released at the senate Intelligence Committees website. Back to your phone calls, coming up on 7 30 on the east coast, asking you, are you concerned about Election Security in 2020 . Tucson, arizona, independent, good morning. Caller good morning. I enjoy your scommow everything, but hey, getting back to this thing about the security. I dont think we need any more. Every state go by the paper ballot. Have a real good i had a Good Neighbor who was a district voting officer, and he was explaining to me that, you know, like every district has certain amount of voting or ballots they get, and they keep track of them, and so if somebody make a mistake, they can change it, but they take away that and give them a new one, and the ballot they take away, it goes in a special box. So they can keep a record of it and that. Are lso, all the ballots there, so they know which district comes from. Also, a lot of people dont realize that when you register, they ask you if you want to register as democrat or republican or independent. It doesnt mean you vote that way. It just means that that is how youre going to be registered, if youre a democrat or republican. And you can change your mind. And also, one last thing. When you go in the little curtain thing or little square box to vote on, its just and you your conscience. No one else. Flyers russian agent standing behind you, threatening to shoot you with a gun or anything. Its just you and your thoughts and your conscience and how you want to vote for this person or not. Host when it comes to you and your thoughts, are you concerned about attempts to change your thoughts about the election, attempts to whether its social media posts or twitter or facebook, teements influence what youre tpwhig a certain candidate or about the election. Are you concerned about foreign governments trying to get into your mind on that . Caller yeah, of course. I mean, theyve been doing that since i bet you someday back in George Washingtons day, somebody will say, hey, dont vote for george, he got wooden teeth. It doesnt mean that you cant vote for him. Its just look what they did in 1960 with jack kennedy. They said, oh, man, you cant vote for him, hes cast scomplick hes irish. Just cant allow that. But people liked him and they voted him into office. So this has been going on since the beginning of time for trying to convince you. I can try to convince you to vote for an independent, doesnt mean you will. Host thats danny in arizona. This is richard in massachusetts, a democrat. Good morning. Caller good morning. Listening to this conversation about the Security Apparatus regarding the upcoming election. Im not really frightened by it. I think its going to resolve itself. I think we do it to them and they do it to us to a degree. But i think on this occasion, with the Trump Administration as corrupt as they are, his intervention with putin and kim fellow from he udi arabia who had Jamal Khashoggi assassinated and the trump Family Business enterprises in russia, along with the sanctions, the political nature in that part of the world, lifting sanctions on russia, the intervention in ukraine, and i think there was a quid pro quo between trump and the putin and plus his titude toward his own, the f. B. I. , the Trump Administrations reaction to all the Security Forces that we have in this country to protect are all as a nation subject. If theres anything that really bothers me is that, is that this guy is really throwing havoc, trying to do havoc on the constitution. Mitch mcconnell is a dangerous, ruthless, vicious, in my opinion, leader of the senate that i have ever witnessed, and ive been following politics for a long time. Host the head of the the director of National Intelligence, dan coats, leaving that post. Hes going to be replaced, if hes confirmed, by john cat live, republican from texas. Do you know much about John Ratcliffe . Caller yeah, hes a radical rightwing extremist who believes in conspiracy theories who blasted the Mueller Report as being fabricated by the democrats. Thats where hes coming from. Hes the last person we need to be the head of an Intelligence Community that gets its information from primary sources to protect us in this country. Hes danger rusms he doesnt belong there. But hes a typical trump appointee. And i hope hes not confirmed. Host thats rich in order massachusetts. You saw the headline from the New York Times about ratcliffes nomination by the president. That story, talking to several republicans on capitol hill, noting that some of those republicans said in private conversations that they wanted to keep the post apolitical. They note that mr. Ratcliffe will need to show he can move beyond the diehard conservative persona that made him a star onth in house and fox news, but less well known among senators who will decide whether to confirm him. They point to republicans on the senate Intelligence Committee, including its chairman, richard burr of north carolina, who said that they were unfamiliar with the congressman. Burr saying, i dont know John Ratcliffe. I talked to him on the phone last night. Its the First Contact ive ever had with him. I look forward to getting to know him, and if i get an official nomination, ill process it through the committee. From the New York Times today. This is democratic congressman seth molten on his twitter page yesterday, talking about John Ratcliffe, saying russia will meddle in our 2020 elections, and our director of National Intelligence must be up to the task of stopping them. Congressman ratcliffe was chose not not because of qualifications or experience, but Blind Loyalty to trump. Thats not enough is what the democratic congressman said in his twitter post. The caller mentioning saudi arabia in his previous call. Some news from capitol hill yesterday on that front, again, we note the senate is in this week. The house has already left for its august recess, although the house will have a brief pro forma session later this morning. In the senate yesterday, the senate did not override President Trumps vetoes of three measures to block arms deals benefiting saudi arabia and the united iran emirates, a setback, the Washington Post notes, for those who hoped they would punish saudi leaders for the humanitarian crisis in yemen and the killing of saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. On monday, six republican senators joined democrats to try to block resolution, the first of which was defeated, a second was defeated, and a third one was. Those totals are far short of the 67 yes votes that the resolution supporters needed along with 2 3 of the house to overcome President Trumps vetoes. Back to your phone calls. Were talking about the 2020 elections. Gauging your level of concern about the security of those electronicses. Bob from kingwood, texas, a republican. Good morning. Caller good morning, john. I just continue to be concerned, not specifically about the russians in our elections, but i continue to be concerned about the way the Mainstream Media selectively reports information. I didnt get to see the start of the program this morning, so you may have shown mitch reasonable cause connell in the well of the senate yesterday discussing Election Security. Host we did indeed, bob. Caller ok, good. If you showed that, then your audience should have seen him discuss the fact that the hurt the group that tchashe heard the briefing about the things done received a standing ovation, probably not standing, but received ovations from both sides of the aisle, because a lot has been done to protect our Election Security since trump was put into office. So we dont see this or hear this in Mainstream Media reporting. You guys are the only ones to just show from the well of the senate. I think somebody ought to look into it a little bit scommor try to find out how much has been done. But again, its the way that the Mainstream Media chooses to selectively not present information that concerns me. We dont really know whats going on, because they choose to eliminate stuff that they dont want people to know about. Shoip bob, much of the concern in the media over the past several days stemmed from Mitch Mcconnell blocking a unanimous consent resolution, democrats trying to move two bills right after the mueller hearings. And tried to do that by unanimous consent. It only takes one member to block it in the senate. And it was that effort that sparked a lot of the concern. So i want to go back to last thursday, when Mitch Mcconnell and republicans blocked that effort. Heres Mitch Mcconnell on the floor last thursday explaining why he was blocking those two Election Security resolutions. The particular bill that the democratic leader is asking to ove by unanimous consent is so partisan that it received one, just one, republican vote over in the house. So clearly this request is not a serious effort to make a law. Clearly something so partisan that it only received one single solitary republican vote in the house is not going to travel through the senate by unanimous consent. Its very important that we maintain the integrity and the security of our elections in our country. Any washington involvement in that task needs to be undertaken with extreme care, extreme care, and thoroughly bipartisan basis. Obviously this legislation is not that. Its just a highly partisan bill from the same folks who spent two years hyping up a Conspiracy Theory about President Trump and russia and who continue to ignore this administrations progress in correcting the obama administrations failures in the election. Therefore, i object. Host again, that you will available on our website at cspan. Org. Watch the debate in its entirety. There was Mitch Mcconnell on the floor of the senate from last thursday, again on the floor yesterday, talking about this in response from the democratic leader. Were talking about it this morning in the wake of those discussions. Joel is next in davidson, north carolina, an independent. Joel, are you concerned about Election Security in 2020 . Caller absolutely, but only concerned about it relative to the electorate. It all depends whether the electorate believes in the declaration of independence or believes that theres a declaration of dependence. If the people believe in the declaration of independence, take the obligations that that offered, well be safe. If the people believe in the declaration of dependence, were at risk. Host deb see next from flint, michigan, democrat, good morning. Caller good morning. Richard from massachusetts hit the nail on the head, thats for sure. But the guy that called from arizona and said that all the states have paper backup, that is not true. There are still 11 states that do not do paper ballots. Ok, yes, im very concerned, very concerned. You know, this trump cheated. He cheated to win the presidency. Everybody that we pay to investigate this stuff is telling us this. But youve got republicans, theyre just delusional, all the coup detarkts even that ratcliffe was talking about the deep state. These people are delusional. And when it comes to changing votes, i heard the other day that 77,000 votes that wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania pushed him over the top in the Electoral College. Thats only one vote for every 144,000 votes that were cast. And when you consider all the social media that came out, and, you know, not everybody is up on this stuff, so when you have social media telling people, oh, text your vote here, we had a couple of counties down in michigan that they had like 20, 25, 30 decreased show at the ballots, and that could be because a lot of young people maybe thought they could text their vote. And one last thing, john, the other day on fox, karl rove was there, and it was in regard to this whole discussion over baltimore, and he whipped off some cities that have problems, obviously, and he tacked on the tale of flint, michigan, trying to say that because we have a democratic mayor, thats why we had the flint problem here with the water. Let me remind him that we had a republican governor. It was taken away from the democrats here on the local level. And given to i cant remember what they call him, but it was somebody that ran the government for the state. So mr. Rove, please leave flint, michigan, out of your mouth if youre going lie about us. Host thats debbie caller do your research. Host thats debbie from flint, michigan, this morning. Speaking of the conversation we had the first hour yesterday, the president s tweets about baltimore and Elijah Cummings, plint of stories stemming from reaction by members of congress yesterday, especially to the president s tweet calling Elijah Cummings a racist. The most notable defense of hell Elijah Cummings coming from republican mark meadows of north carolina, conservative friend of President Trump. Hes one of President Trumps closest allies on capitol hill, but hes had a long friendship with Elijah Cummings as well. His statement yesterday, saying i am friends with both men, President Trump and chairman cummings. I know both men well. Neither man is a racist, period. Med 10s, who frequently echos the president s attacks on perceived opponents, said in a statement that both love america. I think if we put aside partisanship with investigateses, we can find Bipartisan Solutions that will benefit not only chairman cummings district, but the country as a whole. He added, im committed to working to that end with both of them. That is mark meadows yesterday in the wake of the controversy caused by the president s tweets from saturday. Theyve led into sunday and monday as well. The president has yet to tweet about that topic, although he is up and tweeting this morning already. Gina is in mississippi, a republican, good morning. Caller hi, john. Id just like to say to all the trump bashers out there, and liberal democratic party, if youre so worried about cheating, why dont you want vote i. D. . Because the only reason anybody would object to voter i. D. Is that they plan to cheat. Also, what about all the illegals coming in to these sanctuary cities that youre giving drivers licenses to . If you talk about cheating. Youre so obviously planning to cheat. Trump doesnt lie. Host thats gina in mississippi. Speaking of voter i. D. , helen says that voter i. D. And paper ballots can solve the problem when asked this question about Election Security in 2020. Several more tweets for you this morning. Ill get to a few more. One says media and the liberals need a scapegoat to explain trumps second term. This is all theyve got. Russians have been trying to influence u. S. Elections since not long after the bomb shevk revolution. I am much more concerned about same day registration and nonu. S. Citizens voting in elections. And jim asking, when was the last time the Senate Passed any bill by unanimous consent. This concern over Mitch Mcconnell blocking a unanimous consent effort by democrats last week. Mitch mcconnell, as we noted, explained on thursday and again yesterday why he was blocking those two Election Security bills. Robert is in long island, virginia, an independent, good morning. Caller good morning. First of all, thank you, cspan. I have to chastise you just a little bit. You have brought your callers back on topic a few times when they were speaking of things other than concern regarding Election Security, and yet you repeatedly often bring in other issues, including the use of accusations of racism on both parties parts. Perhaps that caution should go for you as well. Im not kickly concerned any more this year about or in the upcoming election about interference, because interference has occurred throughout history and will continue to occur. We do it. Everybody does it. I am concerned regarding the possibility of alteration of actual votes. The only interference or influence that occurred in the last election was provision of information, which the severity of which has not been denied. So perhaps the russians did the American Population a service by providing information that we might otherwise not have had. Host thats rob neither virginia. This is joe from the bronx, a democrat. Caller im from the bronx, new york. When i speak, i say im from new york. Yes, i am concerned. And this morning i would be ble to speak too long. But the concern is that if we continue not to understand the severity of what happened in 2016, we will continue to make that same mistake again. When i listen to mr. Mcconnell, which is the head of the republican senate, the majority leader, he concern me, too, and i tell you why he concern me. Because i tend to believe he 2016 at did happen in with the cooperation of zprump his people with russia. He speak too much, trump might get angry with him on exposing too. Host joe, what do you mean you think he knew . Caller the last thing i want to say to you, one of the things again that concern me is some of the people that call themselves republican. They have loose tongue calling people socialists, they are socialists, socialists. My advice to democrats, when they call you socialist, call them racist. Host thats joe in new york. This is tom in newark, ohio, republican. Good morning. Caller hey, john. Thanks for taking my call. Listen, im not concerned at all, but i dont want paper ballots. I think we have to stay with electronic counts so we know if we had too many votes, if we have over votes or under votes quickly. Shoip tom, on that topic, the paper ballot is the backup. Theres a physical paper backup, but you vote on the electronic voting machine, and you would have that, but you could compare the backup paper ballot to what the electronic machine says. So thats the idea behind the paper ballot backup. Caller ok, i understand that. T what happened last year in dade and Broward County, they found a rental car at the airport with 5,000 paper ballots, and what you know im talking about during the election. Host youre saying youre concerned about the security that have backup system. Caller they will stuff those paper ballots in it, but they had a poll worker who swore an affidavit she walked in a Conference Room and found three other coworkers making out paper ballots and stuffing them boxes. Democrats will do anything to steal an election. And if the count is close, theyll go for a recount, and theyll bring in their lawyers and theyll try to steal all the elections. Host thats no, maam ohio. This is james from tallahassee, florida, independent. Good morning. Caller good morning. It was interesting, he was talking about Broward County. The election of 1876, everybody can look it up, rutherford b. Hayes was appointed the fraudulent president because the democrats had pictures of Abraham Lincoln as being the democrat running, and so the black people, people that didnt know thousand read and stuff, would vote for him for the pictures. So when they found that out, they appointed rutherford b. Hayes so. Broward county has been at it for a really long time and really need to watch for they want im kind of with obama. I remember when obama got up there and said, you know, they tried, they spent 42,000 on ads and stuff, and as far as breaking into the d. N. C. , have to take their word for it, because they never allowed the f. B. I. To look at their computers or their servers. And i think that the russians did exactly what they meant to do, cause dissension and confusion and everybody took the ball and ran with it, the press, democrats, republicans, everybody went all crazy, and just got everybody in a big uproar, and them didnt have to do much to do it. Theyve been at this for years, and i think we should keep can eye on them for sure, but i think you need to be more careful with your local folks, like Broward County down here. I thought that was amusing when i found that historical fact, and i didnt know theyd been at it for that long. But i must say, by to the dump to dump my trash because i cant afford trash, im disabled. When i go down there, i have to have an i. D. I went and got a kitty cat at the pound, and my forever kitty cat, and i had to have an i. D. I think you should have an i. D. To vote as well. Everybody should just keep an eye on Broward County, swhee theyre going to do this time around. Im more worried about them than anybody else. Thank you so much. Host we noted the 380 million that has been made available to states, the federal grants through the help america vote act funding to help states secure their election systems in their states. This is a map from the Election Assistance Commission showing where that 380 million has gone around the country. The darker green states, larger share of the money. The last caller from florida, for instance, a state that received, overall, when it comes to federal funds, and matching state funds as well, over 20 million to help secure states systems. You can see this map at eac. Gov if you want to check it out. To beverly in north carolina, a democrat, about five minutes left in this segment. Beverly, are you concerned about Election Security in 2020 . Caller good morning. All i can tell you is it was a pleasure to hear the man from massachusetts. If people didnt understand whats going on, they should understand now. And the difference between him and the lady from mississippi who ended her conversation with trump doesnt lie, and i can tell you this also. Mr. Mitch mcconnell is a twin of mr. Trump. And he has an aluminum building, aluminum demp his state of tennessee. Think about the money. Think about what is going on in america, and if youre not concerned about voting, thats the only thing that keeps us being a democracy, then maybe youre ready to follow putin and trump. Have a good day. Host doug out of rhode island, republican. Good morning. Caller good morning. The biggest thing, im not concerned about the russians meddling in our elections, because all theyre doing is putting out information. No one has proved that theyve hacked into any systems at all. What you should be concerned about is you have people in this country cant even tell you who the president is. You have millennials that cant read a regular clock. If you want to be concerned about this, get people people are coming up that dont even have i. D. s and voting. Thats where our republic is going wrong. Host jim out of wisconsin is next, independent. Good morning. Caller hi, yes, thank you for cspan. Yeah, im definitely concerned about the russians and our nation states interfering in our elections. Cspan just put on the air something regarding Richard Clark and cybersecurity once again. And when Lindsey Graham is showing up to the senate Intelligence Committee, not giving an Opening Statement and allowing Dianne Feinstein to give the Opening Statement regarding cybersecurity, 5g or whatever it can be, im definitely concerned. And i can continue and thank you. Host ted is in oregon, a democrat. Good morning. Caller good morning there. Here in oregon, i register to vote, and when its time for an election, by out to my mailbox, and heres a ballot from my local county government, and in the ballot, youve got an envelope, and youve got a secrecy envelope, plus the ballot. You fill your ballot out t. You put it into the secrecy envelope. You put the secrecy envelope inside the main envelope, and on the back, you put your im going call, being an old military man, your payroll signature, and you either put it back in the mail or take it down to your local city hall. As far as being concerned, im concerned about other states relying so much on electronics. Every election, 2016, pundit in the country saw hillary as the winner, and the next morning, we woke up and it was trump. How could that happen . John, have a great day. Host ted why, do you trust a mailin ballot versus an electronic ballot . I think we lost ted. Well go to michigan. Darwin is waiting, republican. Good morning. Caller yeah, morning. There will be no problems with 2020 election. Unless the democrats make it a problem. If they when they lose. It will be a problem thats all i got to say. Host darwin in michigan. And this is heidi this morning out of maryland, a democrat. Heidi, go ahead. Caller i find it strange that people who are so worried about illegal voting are not for a paper ballot. I dont understand why President Trump isnt screaming that he wants them and Mitch Mcconnell screaming that they want them so they can go back and check the elections when theyre over, should they feel that anyone has been slighted or the results are very different from the last year. I also think that the Electoral College should be changed so that everyone in america would more likely to vote, because they would feel that their votes counts. Host since youre asking about changing the election system, do you think voting should be mandatory in this country . Caller i dont, but i think that no, but i do think that you should be that everyone should, when theyre born, be registered to vote, much like, i believe it was oregon that did a organ donor bill, where you were signed up unless you opted out. I think that that is the way that people should be registered to vote so that youre born in the country, this is automatically done, and, you know, when the legal tige vote, you can simply opt out. Host heidi, thanks for the call. Doug, go ahead. Caller good morning. Host good morning. Caller i was watching the clip you showed with Mitch Mcconnell. What is so scary about this, he takes it lightly. When you have the Intelligence Community saying there was interference with meddling back in 2016, he takes it so lightly. Thats all i wanted to say. Host why do you think he takes it lightly . He went to the floor of the senate yesterday to specifically say that he has been working on this for years and it very seriously. Caller it just seems like it. He comes across that way. I heard him say i dont know why they are making a big deal out of all of this. It seems like he doesnt take it as seriously as it should. Then, he is very quick to attack hillary and obama on something in the same sentence, i cant remember what it was on your clip, but he quickly changed and went over criticizing those two. They are not even part of this reality anymore. Host that is dug in new york. Our last caller in this first segment of the washington journal. I hope you stick around. Up next, we will be joined by jeff kosseff to discuss the Communications Decency act and the role it plays in online content liability. Later, we will be joined by stephen kohn of the National Whistleblower center to discuss the role and protections available for whistleblowers. First, President Trump signed legislation extending the september 11 Victim Compensation fund. Here is a portion of the president s remarks from the rose garden before an audience of First Responders and families of 9 11 victims. Pres. Trump we have an obligation, and it is a sacred one, to the families and First Responders of 9 11. Here with us today is chief john joyce, former fire chief of the midtown manhattan firehouse. On september 11, 15 of his men raced into the ashes of hell and gave their lives. Stills day, chief joyce mentors many of their 28 children. Chief joyce spent seven months working at ground zero. In 2011, he was diagnosed with cancer. He has also endured other severe 9 11 related illnesses, but the chief is a fighter. He is definitely a fighter. As he says, because of this bill, he does not have to fear for the families of his firehouse, whose loved ones made the ultimate sacrifice. Chief joyce, you have our everlasting gratitude. Please, chief. [applause] pres. Trump thank you. Thank you, chief. Thank you for being here. And, say hello to everybody. , you poured1 hero out your heart, your sweat, your soul, and everything you had to your country. You ran toward the wreckage, likea ball of flames, nobody in this country had ever seen. You searched for survivors, went back day after day and night after night to save lives and return the fall into their families, to rebuild and recover , and to show the entire world that nothing will ever break america partial spirit. Over the last america partial spirit. You the last two decades, had incredible grits. Through its all, you care and work and love, and you will always remember all of those great families. You lift up our families communities, and remind us all what it means to stand united as one nation, under god, for your entire lives. You have gone far be under duty to us, and today, we strive to fulfill our sacred duty to you. We love you, we honor you, and we thank you. God bless you all. Thank you. [applause] pres. Trump thank you. Washington journal continues. Host jeff kosseff is a professor at the u. S. Naval academy and the author of the book the 26 wars that created the internet. And these are the 26 words, they can be found in section 230 of the Communications Decency act of 1996. They say that no provider or user of an Interactive Computer Service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider. Jeff, explain what those 26 words mean. Guest to understand, you have to understand the history of why Congress Passed it. The basic rule under the First Amendment, going back to bookstores, was that distributors of someone elses content would only be held liable if they knew or had reason to know of illegal content. Once we had early online compuserve, the courts said, well, if you dont moderate user content, you can receive that protection, if you are like a store like a bookstore. But if you moderated, you are more like a newspaper. In 1996, Congress Passed the Communications Decency act, section 230, which says if you dont moderate or moderate, if you have reason to know, you will have this very broad immunity for content users post. Host go back to 1996. What would the development of the internet look like without section 230 . Guest it would be difficult to have some of the current platforms under their Current Business models. Yelp is a great example. If you didnt have section 230, yelp could be liable for every negative review someone posts, if they dont take it down immediately upon receiving a complaint. How useful would yelp be if they removed everyone every one star review. Host why are we talking about section 230 today . Why is Congress Interested in this . Guest it has taken on new visibility because of two separate types of criticism. One criticism says the platforms are not moderating nearly enough area so, theres a lot of harmful content, big propaganda, hate speech that gets through, videos of shooting that arent taken down immediately. That is one set of criticisms. What those critics say is, contrary to the intention totion, it was passed encourage moderation. Then, there is another criticism that is basically along the lines of large platforms like google, youtube, twitter, censoring certain political oftenints, certain conservative say that they dont get the best search results or their content is the monetize. They say that is political bias d monetized demonitized. They say that his political bias. Host go back to something you just said, that there is a thought that it was passed to encourage moderation. If you are not held liable for anything, how does that encourage moderation . Guest the idea is that the platforms will develop the theirization policies users demand. If a platform doesnt do any , if they allowed every bit of content out there, that probably wont be a great place to be. The idea is consumers will. Rather than have the government said moderation standards, which would run into a lot of First Amendment issues, lets have these platforms accountable to their users. That is the theory behind section 230. Host do think that happened in the way the original writers of section 230 thought would happen . In some think it has respects. There are detailed moderation policies. I would say the platforms are very far from perfect in how they implement and communicate their policies. I am at the Naval Academy and i interact with intelligence agencies as well, and sometimes, i think the intelligence agencies are more transparent than some of the large online platforms, in terms of what their practices are. That is not what should be happening. They need to be communicating. They need to better involve users in these decisions. Guest,eff kosseff is our an assistant professor of cybersecurity law at the u. S. Naval academy. The author of the book the 26 words that created the internet. Online content and liability is the topic. The phone lines are open to join the conversation. Democrats, 202 7488000. Republicans, 202 7488001. Independents, 202 7488002. Jeff kosseff will be with us until the bottom of the hour this morning. I to the debate playing out on capitol hill and at the white house, can you set up the players in this debate and how they are lining up on either side of this . Guest you have there were two members of congress who sponsors section 230. One is chris cox, who is now in private law practice, and the other was then representative senator ron white. Host is at the chris cox who is at the nra . Guest no. He was the sec chairman under president bush. They wrote section 230 and both advocated for senator center wide and has been a strong defender currently senator widen has been a strong defender currently. Senator cruz took the lead to say these platforms could not be biased on certain political viewpoints. Senator hawley introduced legislation that would condition section 230 protections for larger platforms on some form of political neutrality. On the others, there are a lot of democrats saying there is not enough moderation. Speaker pelosi suggested eliminating section 230, and she has had she recently had a video of her that was alter that we shared pretty widely. Ash that was shared pretty widely. That was an example of under moderation. Host where does the president come down on this and his top advisers on these issues at the white house . Specificm not aware of statements about section 230 from the president. He recently held a social media forum where he praised senator hawleys efforts on legislation, which i would assume to be his bill about political bias. Host do you personally take a stand on what you have here . Guest i will give the caveats, im not speaking on behalf of the dod or Naval Academy, i think all sides are raising important issues. We have a lot of anecdotes and a lot of contradicting anecdotes. What i would stress motive importantly is that section 230 is so fundamental to the infrastructure of how the internet ecosystem has been it is not something we cant change, it is something we really have to carefully consider how to change it if we are going to. Host is there a middle ground here between the status quo and creating a federal online content liability czar who gets to decide what is fair in what is not . Guest i think there are a lot of different options. One would be to require better transparency somehow. Out what firstnd are they doing. These results people complain about the results of algorithms, Search Engine optimizations, or Something Else . Transparency would be one thing. There are also certain cases were home pro content may have already been adjudicated, if amatory or harmful to individuals, making sure and seeing if that could come down from the internet. Sometimes, that content can devastate peoples lives. There are a lot of options to consider. Everything should be on the table. Congress amended section 232 deal with the issue of online sex trafficking. Host lets bring in callers who have lined up. Online content and liability is topic. We start with benjamin in california, an independent. Caller good morning. Host good morning. Go ahead, you are on with jeff kosseff. Is, how doesestion cybersecurity correlate to poverty, because usually security threats are correlated with poverty or instability in countries, and how to cybersecurity relate to that specific thing . Guest i think there has always been a digital divide. This is separate from section is anut cybersecurity area i research and practice in. Interesting thing on cybersecurity practices across the board have been very weak. Part of that is a lack of training, education, which i personally think should be starting from the very early ages in Elementary School and cyberchool, to develop hygiene practices so people might be less likely to click on a link or click on an attachment that could have does have devastating consequences for them and their employers. Host are there states that have created a program to do that in Elementary School and high school . Is there is one you would. 22 do with the best . Guest it has been scattered would. 2 to do with the best point to to do it the best . Guest it has been scattered. People have had cybersecurity. More and more hands go up, but i think that should be a top priority in education. Host are you optimistic on that front . Guest i think so. There is more awareness than ever before and cybersecurity. I think the cybersecurity threats cut across every portion of our society, whether it is political, economic, individual rights, privacy, and i think people are recognizing it. It takes a little while to translate into action. Ant south carolina, pat is independent. Good morning. Caller yes. I think there should be some rules against somebody being somebodyo on and trash say they have had a minor disagreement over something, be, andr it might they annihilate their reputations and destroy their businesses, and everything. Want thaty not to protected, i dont understand where theyre coming from. We work to be able to use the internet with the realization , and not juste because we disagree with know, weis called, you are called unamerican or whatever, socialist. Host pat, we will take the point to pats concern. Guest the internet has given us irror to society, and is it is a mirror for the good things and bad things. I encountered a lot of these cases as i was writing my book. One important thing to note is that even with section 230, someone who has been defamed and harmed, and these harms are real and devastating, they can still go after, legally, the person who created the content, but there are few problems with that. Bad actorsthe really post anonymously so you cant identify them. They also might not have sufficient assets. The discussion with section 230 has been, well, if we cant necessarily hold the posters accountable, then, do we hold the platforms accountable if they fail to take actions to protect us . Host we come back to the book, the 26 words to create the internet. Why was this fundamental in your mind, the creation of the internet, why this specific provision . Guest the largest websites in the world, the largest platforms in the United States, facebook, twitter, youtube, think about how they can function even if there was a chance of them being liable for the vast amount of user content out there. They would have to have very different business models. The United States is the only country that has such a broad protection for platforms, and it also has is home to many platforms. Host how does it work in other countries . Guest it varies. Some have default protections we have under the First Amendment for distributors, which is if you know or have reason to know, then you could be liable. That effectively creates a takedown system. In europe, there is a right to be forgotten where there has to be removal of certain information that is determined to have substantial privacy invasion, that outweighs free speech, other hate speech laws that require the prevention or removal of hate speech. Theres a wide variety of approaches. Then, other countries will even go further and prevent certain types of content from being posted thats might be critical of government. An outlierstates is in terms of the broad protections that it provides to distributors. Host if you want to join the conversation, democrats, 202 7488000. Republicans, 202 7488001. Independents, 202 7488002. John is in statesville, north carolina. A republican. Go ahead. Caller good morning. I would like for your guest to explain the two platforms i see use more and when i wake up and turn my computer on, google and yahoo right underneath it. Explain the difference between the two platforms, if you will, and the reason im concerned is because yahoo , i think the lady that owns yahoo , the ceo of yahoo , i think she is a trumpeter trump hater. Host you want to know the difference between the Search Engines . Caller yeah. And why yahoo never ever never says anything good . Every headline is a negative President Trump headline. Host jeff kosseff. Guest yahoo developed first and yahoo , in the late 90s, was the predominant Search Engine, and google quickly took the vast majority of the Search Market share. What it sounds like youre talking about isnt just the search results, but also the news headlines. Yahoo actually has news staff and they have a section that is more still like the traditional news service. That is where they probably have or editorial discretion. Google is much more focused on its algorithm for both its search results, the google news, so i think that might be what you are seeing, that there is at least, in some sites, they still have more discretion over the stories they are running. Sabrina,new hampshire, republican. Good morning. Caller good morning. I would like to know i understood this is about liability and people that make negative comments about corporations and whatnot, so what is in place for the other way around . People, what do these who are making these what if these people who are making these negative comments are correct in what they are observing . How does the sword swing the other way so you see people and entities and investigative agencies that are trying to figure out what the truth is. Are that even trying to find out what the truth is or are we bolstering up Corporate America once again to be able to escape accountability . Definitely the idea of section 230, allowing platforms to escape accountability, is definitely a criticism raised for probably two decades, from people who say the platforms are not transparent and they dont necessarily remove content that we know is false and harmful. So, i think the criticism you raise is something that has persisted over time, and has probably gotten louder as platforms have become far more important. We have to remember that when section 230 was passed in 1996, we were talking about prodigy and compuserve, and aol, which were important, but they dont have the same reach as a youtube or twitter, or facebook or google. Host less than 10 minutes left in this conversation if you want to join. Phone lines are as usual, democrats, republicans, and independents open as folks . Go back to the discussion about mending section 230 and the history of why it has been amended in the past, and how often it has been amended. Guest theres only one substantial amendment. There have been technical changes, but the amendment happened from 2017 to 2018. Concerns about a particular site called act page postedpage which had classified ads but many of the ing volved sex trafficti trafficking and to some involved sex trafficking of minors. There were 315yearold girls who sued backpage for violations of various laws and went to a federal court, which dismissed the case under section 230 in 2016. That got a lot of criticism. This is not just decimation defamation, this is children sold online. That caused congress to consider and pass an amendment, the first substantive amendment, that exempts certain types of sex trafficking laws from civil and state criminal prosecution. Host was there anybody who tried to fight that on such a sensitive topic . Guest i would say the tech industrys response at the beginning, when this was proposed, was not great. They talked about frivolous lawsuits and plaintiffs lawyers, rather than acknowledging that there is real harms happening. Host where they scared of the slippery slope . Guest yeah. They were. Thingsre two interesting to note. There has always been an exception to section 230 for federal, criminal law. A few days before the president law,d this amendment into the fbi seized and was able to shut down backpage and indicted people involved in the site. Happened without the amendment. The second thing, you are starting to see platforms be very riskaverse. Craigslist, for example, shut down his personal section, which you might not necessarily say that is the end of the world, but that shows you the platforms are going to be riskaverse and you are mending section 230. Newewport florida port richey, florida. A democrat. Caller i would like to ask jeff kosseff two questions. I remember when europe changed about peopley laws should be respected online. To other thing i wanted interject into the conversation is that online content liability , we have a lot of breaches every day in the government. Fbi today was one of them. Whats liability to people have, laws, do the regular people have in a timely manner to correct any information that is connected to those losses . Actually, i would like to ask you if you if the Naval Academy, what do you think about all of this stuff with the dark web . Really, most people dont even use the dark web. Host lots of questions there. Guest the first issue about civility and approaches in europe, europe is different in terms of its core legal values for speech, than the United States. This goes beyond section 230. In europe, they have stronger ewivacy rights and vi a fundamental human right. In the United States, we have Free Expression over privacy. You have seen those values within the section 230 debate. In terms of the breaches, im not sure a fundamental human right. If you are talking about data breaches. Theink that is outside of scope of section 230 because companies can be held liable for data breaches. Unfortunately, that is currently theres not a strong legal system in the United States for that right now. We have state laws, a fairly weak law that empowers the ftc to take actions, but there are a lot of calls to have much stronger laws at the state and federal level. You saw california do that. Host before we leave reaches, i wonder what you think will happen in the wake of the newsmaking front pages around the country today of capital one, the fifth biggest u. S. Credit card issuer, saying monday that hackers had access to personal information of approximately 106 million card customers and applicants, one of the largest ever data breaches of a large bank. Guest i think that will help to further strengthen the call for a federal a strong federal Data Security law. We have some, but they are fairly weak. In that case, they said most of the Social Security numbers were not disclosed, but we have to have a broader conception of what constitutes a data breach, because there are a lot of breaches that are harmful, that are not necessarily covered adequately by current laws. Host her last question is on the dark web. Guest this is the subject of my next book, which is about the u. S. Approach to anonymity offline and online. Ofs goes back to the issue the United States valuing Free Expression. There are Supreme Court cases going back more than a halfcentury that have protected the rights of people to speak anonymously. It started with cases that refuse to require the naacp in the 50s to disclose its membership lists. It goes to modernday with anonymity protections for the internet. In the United States, i think it would be we have this legal challenge, and we also have technological challenges with services that protect anonymity. Which much evidence would say is fundamental to the american ability to speak freely. Host to bring it back to section 230 before we run out of time, what is the timing on any potential new change to that law . Guest im not sure. Politics is outside of my scope of expertise. I know the criticisms im hearing from democrats and republicans are different than section 230. Im not sure how you reconcile the criticisms that they are moderating too much and too little into a single bill. Host the last question for you from twitter, from john locke, to the larger question of trust in the internet. As somebody who study Cyber Security and writes about it, how would you respond to john saying i have no doubt everything we ever say or type is saved. We will have the same system as china. Guest i dont know if i would go that far, but i do know, especially in a lot of these recent breach cases, we have seen companies do retain data for quite a long time. I think it is wise to be careful about what you put online. Host jeff kosseffs assistant professor of Cyber Security law at the u. S. Naval academy. The book he wrote, the 26 words that created the internet, we appreciate your time. Next, we will be joined by stephen kohn of the National Whistleblowers center to discuss whistleblowers and protections that they have. Later, the outgoing irs Taxpayer Advocate, nina olson, will join us to discuss the complexity of the u. S. Taxpayer system. We will be right back. I live in the country where theres no public i canortation, no that walk. A woman to do anything, she needs a car. To function or drive this car, she needs a man. Announcer sunday night on q a, alshurish talks about her decision to challenge the saudi governments ban on women drivers. The right to drive is more active civil disobedience, because a woman is not supposed to drive. We show that we are able, our own lifeiving and being in the driver seat of their own destiny by doing this active civil disobedience. Announcer watch at a tick like eastern on cspans q a. Intellectual. N he is an intellectual, comfortable with ideas. He understands the power of ideas. With that kind of foundation, intellectual foundation, a political leader can do all sort of things. Announcer lee enters will be our guest sunday from noon to two a clock p. M. Eastern. He is the author 2 00 p. M. Eastern. He is an author. Join our live conversation with your phone calls, tweets, and facebook questions. Watch indepth with lee edwards, live from noon to 2 00 p. M. Eastern on sunday. And watch our coverage of the National Book festival on book tv on cspan two. The house will be in order. Announcer cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the Supreme Court, and Public Policy events from washington dc and around the country for 40 years, so you can make up your own mind. Created by cable in 1979, cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Washington journal continues. Is chairmann kohn of the board of directors at the National Whistleblower cente, joining us on National Whistleblower appreciation today. Why is today the National Whistleblower Appreciation Day . In 1778, at the height of the United States revolution, the u. S. Congress passed our first whistleblower law. Whistleblowers, sailors, and marines, had criticized the commander of the u. S. Navy. Including criticizing him for mistreating british prisoners. This is embarrassing to the u. S. Government, but think about it. The Founding Fathers put everything on the line. This was not an election or paul. If they lost the revolution, they would get hung for treason. In the middle of thats revolution, they paused, and they said every inhabitant of the United States should report waste, fraud, and corruption to congress and appropriate authorities, even if it barest the new government it embarrassed the new government. They passed the law and voted money for the lawyers for the whistleblowers who had been thrown in jail. And they released all of the ,apers that were controversial that were embarrassing to the government. The whistleblowers won the case. 1778, so this30, is not some token day. This is a day for every american to sit back and say, whoa, whistleblowers have been with us for a long time and they have done an incredible job. Host we use the term dead did we use the term whistleblower in 1778 . Guest that came in the late 60s and early 70s. Host why then . Guest no one knows the origin. Theas in literature in 20s, 30s, and 40s, some detective books. They say it comes from the British Police blowing the whistle to get support. Nobody knows. Host you have written a handful handbook for would be whistleblowers. Rule number one in the handbook, which we have on the desk here with us, you say is for whistleblowers to use the legal tools available to them today. What are those legal tools for would be whistleblowers . Guest there has been a revolution. Most people dont know it. Whistleblowers now have some of the most powerful anticorruption tools available ever. There is nothing like it. Whistleblowers can go anonymously, confidentially, can report the largest fraud in banking, securities, commodity exchange, government contracting. And, they can qualify for financial rewards, which means you dont have to wait until you are fired and the jury gives you a judgment because your life has been ruined. If your information is good, and leads to a successful enforcement, you can get a percentage. It is working. In 2018, the u. S. Government paid whistleblowers over 800 million in rewards, and no one even knows it. Host who is Bradley Birkenfeld . Guest he was a banker who worked in switzerland for the time, ubs. He was the first major bank whistleblower. Thousands of americans had illegal, hidden accounts in switzerland, hiding their money, evading taxes. He was the first one, it whistleblower, who came into the United States, turned in the information, triggering the largest and most successful fraud prosecution, i think, ever. Americans turned themselves into a voluntary amnesty program. Over 16 billion in sanctions collected through the swiss bank program. Ubs had to pay a 780 million birkenfeld received the largest whistleblower reward given to any individual, 104 million. You may say this guy got 104 million for blowing the whistle . Butts, why did they do it . I spoke to the but, why did they do it . Was 104 Million Dollars pennies to the dollar. It was advertising to every banker in the world that if you turn in your american clients who have illegal accounts who are Money Laundering or hiding their wealth, ripping off the taxpayer, you can get a reward. Host when was the first time we paid a whistleblower . Guest that is amazing. Laws,rliest whistleblower means in the name of the king, were passed by the First Congress of the United States, in 17891790. You have to go back in history. At the time of the american revolution, when they passed this resolution on july 30, there was a concept of bringing the people into government. Use the power of the people for democracy, so among the very first laws passed by the u. S. Tan, in theere qui name of the king, it was empowering people to act with the powers of government and they could collect a reward. If they turned in criminals and obtained a sanction, their information was solid, they could get up to 50 of what was collected by the government. Host whistleblowing is the topic for the next halfhour on the washington journal. You can join us in the conversation. Phone lines, democrats are 202 7488000. Republicans are 202 7488001. Independents are 202 7488002. Setting aside a special line as well for whistleblowers. If you have done it or thinking 202 7488003. Explain what the National Whistleblower center is. Guest we will work with the broad amount of people. Anyone could be dropped, so it is essential that people inside of these criminal conspiracies, people with the inside knowledges of the corruption, can come forward. Host what is the Legal Process if you decide to become a whistleblower . Guest now, we go into the world of chaos. This is why a road the handbook. There are 50 different whistleblower laws in the United States. Each sector of the economy has their own. There are certain superpowerful laws super powerful laws. These are really good. Then, you have some that arent so good. It is as simple as that. The process is that you have to find out what your rights are under the law that covers you. Then, try to find the best one. New this is the whistleblowers handbook, was there an old one . Guest the first one came out and 20102 thousand 11, but it became the new whistleblowers 20102011,cause but it became the new whistleblowers handbook because the new is completely different. It is the opposite of the stereotypes, working with the government, being confidential, being anonymous, being key sources of corruption. , fraud in, tax fraud contracting, foreign bribery, and partnering with what we have now come to see as really good and honest government investigators, and clobbering these large corporations that are engaged in wrongdoing. Host i wonder why you picked a bank of microphones as the picture on the cover. Guest the first one had that, and it was more of the old, you know, whistleblower going to the press. Large publicens, a disclosure. Now, i would have someone with dark sunglasses in the corner. Host rhode island is up first. Christinas democrats. Good morning. Caller good morning. Good topic. I was watching a hearing on the whistleblower for the v. A. A couple of weeks ago, and thank god we do have whistleblowers, but they do need more protection and followthrough. Think,und there was, i sixto 8 million missing dollars to 8 million missing from the suicide for the military. That was one of the statements the whistleblower had brought up. So, they need a lot of oversight and support, especially the corruption going on in the v. A. Right now. Host so the v. A. Guest so the v. A. Is one of the worst agencies for whistleblowers. More whistleblowers come out of the v. A. Than any other federal agency. Also, the v. A. Pretty much has the worst whistleblower laws. Federal employees are at the lower end of protection. Hold onto your seat. There is a board that is supposed to protect federal employee whistleblowers, but there are now no members on this board. The board has not been able to issue a decision for two years. Of ave a case of whistleblower from the army corps of engineers who blew the whistle on fraud, won her case years ago, but we appealed one issue because we wanted to win everything this whistleblower deserved, and it stalled at this board with no members, no ability to go to federal court for years. Today, it is almost schizophrenia. If you are blowing the whistle on security fraud, tax fraud, or foreign bribery, you have fantastic whistleblower laws. But, if you are in the v. A. , you have the worst. We are trying to the National Whistleblower center is trying to fix that. All the whistleblowers deserve the best. Host lawrence is in florida. An independent. Good morning. Caller i was wondering about, as a whistleblower, you have to be a part of a company or can andbe a private citizen, you also have to have absolute proof of this, right . Guest you can be a private citizen. Remember, the oldest the 1778 law calls upon all the inhabitants of the United States. The qui tam law speaks of empowering the citizen. As it turns out, most of your whistleblowing comes from employees, because they know where the corruption is within large institutions. It also comes from government where employees know that taking a bribe or who is committing malfeasance. You dont have to be a Government Employee. If you have original information about illegal activity, you can qualify and you can qualify for the superduper whistleblower laws. Host a couple of names to throw at you. Edward snowden, chelsea manning, dooley and assigns. Guest julian assange. Guest julian assigned is in a different category. The other two are whistleblowers because they made a disclosure of information that was of Public Interest in included official wrongdoing. The problem with both of those cases is that they went about it in a way that was illegal, and they got themselves into trouble. To educate is whistleblowers on how to do it lawfully, how to protect themselves, how to accomplish their goals without going to jail or getting fired. Host what are the rules for members of the military and Intelligence Committee . You went over the rules for v. A. Employees. Guest the military has interesting whistleblower laws that lets you go to congress. If you remember, a whistleblower came up out of a prison and that whistleblower went to congress and was protected. There was a law that we helped write and push forward many years ago. Going to congress was also in the 1778 law, they protected the whistleblowers in 1778 because they went to congress. That is one of the safest places to go, even if you are in intelligence. Theres another law that whistleblowers need to be aware of, which is obstruction of justice. The law says that if you have information about a crime, and you go to federal Law Enforcement and report it, any person, if you are subject to retaliation, that person who retaliates against you should go to prison for 10 years. The federal obstruction of justice statute creates a Public Policy and sends a message that, if you want to blow the whistle, one safe place to go is federal Law Enforcement. Another safe place to go is congress. Use the superduper laws, and these are really powerful and effective and have very specified procedures. Host we set aside a special line for whistleblowers on National Whistleblower Appreciation Day, 202 7488003 is that number. Otherwise, lines for democrats, republicans, and independents as usual. Melvin is calling in on the whistleblower line out of florida. Melvin, go ahead. Outer i was trying to find if the whistleblowers would also cover homeowners associations, because some of the things that are going on are definitely outside of the scales of what or notld think is legal considered discrimination. Guest sure. State has some whistleblower laws. Some are strong in some states, new jersey has an excellent new jersey has excellent laws, district of columbia, california. Other states have bad laws like alabama and new york. But, that is where you would go, and for Something Like a homeowners association, most likely, you would find support under state whistleblower laws. The other thing you would want to look at is, is there any government money going into these entities . Thats another very good place to look at, misspending up government money, contracts, or grants. If that is the case, the odds are that you will have a good whistleblower law. Host you talked at the beginning about how much money has been paid to whistleblowers in the past year. What part of the government had the most whistleblowers . Guest the v. A. Has the most whistleblowers, by far. Every other Government Agency has some. Has had al government terrible track record on whistleblowing, terrible. One of the reasons is, it is kind of like this. At gm, the whistleblower law for the auto industry, what do you think it will look like . Congress is essentially the employer of the federal Government Employee. They have written the worst laws for federal Government Employees. It is terrible. The fact that this board, there is no member of it, it means no whistleblower retaliation case can even be decided, let alone ruled against. It is horrendous. Host out of tennessee, this is red, a democrat. Good morning. Caller hi, how are you . Host doing well, go ahead. Caller i work for the federal government 37 years worked for the federal government 37 years. Im 72 years old and have been retired 17 years. 1980s, i ratted out a personnel making decisions the guy was a holy roller. He was making personnel warpedns based on his religious beliefs, and i found thatater, years later, they acted upon this and i found ,ut all of the details later on and it was really funny. All kinds of nuts working for the federal government, and they got unlimited power. Host that is red in tennessee. The federal government, federal employees have a lot of power. A lot of power over a lot of people. Consequently, whistleblower laws are essential and are essential in the federal government as they are in State Government and big companies. Employeesh federal have a hard time of it, whistleblowers are still the number one source of all fraud detection, period. Every study shows it. That is why the laws have gotten better, that is why they have created these strong laws and anonymity. When they look at fraud detection, fraud is designed to be hidden. A good bribe, no one knows ever happened, so you need the insider. What they found, as they have increased these whistleblower laws and made them stronger and stronger, billions have flown into the treasury and people have gone to prison, accountability has gone up, and the decisionmakers and believe me, these are not prowhistleblower people, they this is the way to stop it. Throughout the entire economy, federal government or not, whistleblowers are number one fraud detection. Host you say whistleblowers have a hard time of it. Haven twitter says do you examples of successful whistleblowing where the career of the whistleblower was not ruined . Guest that is a great question. We have dealt with people whose careers have been ruined, day in and day out. Im certain there are many honest employees, managers, and people who have blown the whistle and thrived. Im certain of that, i just have not seen it. I have seen the other side, very ugly. Host to virginia, kimberly, an independent. In morning. Caller hi. Im one of the federal employees working at the pentagon who attempted to blow the whistle with retaliated and who was retaliated against and tried to work through the system. I suffered horrendous retaliation, my career, my andtation was all ruined, my case is still floundering through the eeo system. I attended to get a lawyer who was crooked and took me for my money. I probably will never see my money. It was probably a my retirement that i have lost and i will never see it. It is not that easy to find help , especially when you are going whatst in line guest you are going against css. Guest what you are talking about, if the laws are weak, it is hard to get a good lawyer. Oftenwyers you find are charging and cant win the case anyway. The law is terrible. I want to say this to all of the viewers. You have to understand what happens. If a whistleblower accuses a , and thef malfeasance whistleblowers rights, they have evidence they messed it up, the manager has two choices, discredit the whistleblower, retaliate, or admit they messed up and get fired, or get demoted. The natural reaction of supervision in management to a whistleblower disclosure is almost always retaliation. Defensive is to be expected. The good, modern laws understand that and understand this is a , becausen situation the manager has a lot to lose if the whistleblower is right. This woman who called in, this is the story time and time again because the managers are aligned with hr, have massive resources, the agencies back them up. It is a cultural thing, and the whistleblower is on the receiving end. Only a federal employees get real laws, real protection, will these problems and. Host kimberly used end. Used two federal used two federal terms, she is in the eeo system and going against sec. Guest essie ses. Eeo is oneses and pathway to get your case resolved. You are a woman or minority and are a whistleblower. You can generally use the eeo process. Either way, the system for federal employees is broken. Host two niagara falls, new york, richard, republican. Caller good morning. Thank you for cspan. , remember watching on netflix a program under dirty money, and it was during the obama era and how drug cartels were laundering money in the bank of america. I was wondering, whatever happened to that situation . Whatever happened to that situation . Guest it only gets worse. I have a case right now, 240 billion Money Laundering, bank of america, deutsche bank, citibank, jp morgan, dansk a bank, allnska administration. It doesnt matter. Money laundering is a gigantic problem, a gigantic problem. That is where people hide who owns the money in the flesh it out read Money Laundering remains one of the top issues. We are working with whistleblowers on it. In 2018, congress unanimously improved the irs whistleblower law, and it now covers criminal Money Laundering. Host are there new changes to federal whistleblower laws that are working their way through congress now . Guest yeah. They are hoping to push through legislation to help federal employees. It has stalled out to right now. They need access to federal courts. Every good whistleblower law lets the whistleblower get to a judge and jury that is independent, at some point. Federal employees cannot. They are the only groups in the whole country that cannot. Host why not . Guest because in 1978, when they passed those laws, the Civil Service reform act, they excluded them from federal court. Why did that happen . It was the federal government itself, congress and the executive, they are the employer. They want to control their workers. It is like gm passing a whistleblower bill, it wont happen. It is up to the American People to demand these laws go through. Host you say it stalled, why . Guest because we have been trying to get it. Weve had it once through the house, once through the senate, and every time, it gets blocked. We know why, the bureaucracy, the general councils. They gang up and put pressure against somebody. Host to mark washington, d. C. , a democrat, good morning. Caller good morning. I am an attorney and have always considered i have a couple of friends that have a billiondollar prospect that they are considering. ,y main question for you is one, if a relater matter is not picked up by the doj, is his name made public . Any have you noticed effects due to the influence of money in politics for an executive agency to determine whether to take or not take up a key town matter . Host hang on the line while we get the answer. Host the answer he used is the word used in the original false claims act signed into law by Abraham Lincoln on march 2, 18 63 at the height of the american revolution. Similar to the revolutionary was president and Congress Looking to the American People to enforce these anticorruption laws. That was a term they used for whistleblower in 1863. The question is, what is the influence . Money and politics, connections, et cetera. What we have found is the biggest problem in the qui tam area, is when the federal Government Employee colludes with the contractor, the qui tam law allows you to sue the contractor for government fraud, collusion, what you a contracts find is that the federal bureaucracy doesnt like those cases. They dont want to pursue a case where the federal government itself, where employees facilitate it. And there has been a movement to try to get federal employee rights to file these qui tam false claims so they can identify these rotten apples. In the world of whistleblowing, the biggest weakness today are the rights of federal employees and they have been stalled out. But the qui tam law is working remarkably well through all administrations. Host are you still on the line with us . Caller im still here. Host how often do you do whistleblower work . Caller are not involved in whistleblower work myself. I studied in law school. I knew a couple of individuals who had some very large prospective isst and my recommendation to pursue it. Because the rankandfile attorneys at the department of justice and the u. S. Attorneys offices that actually work these cases are doing a great job. They are dedicated. They are honest. And i would never say that. Because we advocate for whistleblowers. Its only because weve worked with them, weve experienced it. Thats why i talk about the new whistleblowing. Its a whole new era when the whistleblower can work with effective prosecutors to get justice. You actually raised another question about cam the qui tam whistleblower remain confidential. The answer to that is mixed. In most cases no. Because you file in federal court. Its originally confidential. Its under seal. It eventually gets released prebut the d. C. Circuit judge last friday issued a very important decision about the rights of whistleblowers to remain anonymous and they set up a standard for anonymity. They reversed the tax court that did not grant a whistleblower anonymity. And that standard where there is good cause, you can get anonymity. Host one last call for you from medina, new york. Eddie is an independent. Good morning. Caller morning. Have to to know do with everything its going on in america all around the world . Host what was . Burridge . Ild a where they get together every year and go to secret meetings and decide whats going to go on in the country . Host we will hold off on secret societies. Guest what i want to say about that is my experience and 35 years working with these whistleblower laws. Whatever conspiracy and problems may be out there, these laws are working. And thats the message that i want to give. Falses, the security, the claims act. They are working. They need to be supported. They need to be encouraged. We need to protect them. Stephen kohn is chairman of the board of directors at the National Whistleblower center. He is the author of the book the new whistleblowers handbook. We appreciate your time this morning. Up next, the outgoing irs olsoner advocate nina will join us to discuss the complexity of the u. S. Taxpayer system. Stick around. We will be right back. I live in a country where there is no public transportation, where there is nowhere i can walk and a woman to leave the house to do anything in her life she needs a car. To function or to drive this car she needs a man. Sunday night on q a, saudi arabia and womens rights activist talks about her book daring to drive a saudi womans awakening about her decision to challenge the saudi governments ban on women drivers. The right to drive is an active civil disobedience because women are not supposed to drive. We showed that we are able, we are capable of driving and being in the drivers seat of our own destiny by doing this act of civil disobedience. Watched sunday night at 8 00 eastern on cspans q a. Reagan is an intellectual. Hes comfortable with ideas. He understands the power of ideas. Of with that kind intellectual foundation, a political leader can do all kinds of marvelous things. Author and historian lee edwards will be our guest on indepth sunday from noon to 2 00 p. M. Eastern. Mr. Edwards is the author of just right plus a collection of biographies of william f buckley, Barry Goldwater and ronald reagan. Join our live conversation with their phone calls, tweets and facebook questions. Watch indepth with author lee edwards live sunday from noon to 2 00 a. M. Eastern and be sure to watch our coverage of the National Book festival on saturday, august 31 on book tv on cspan2. In 1979, a Small Network with an unusual name rolled out a big idea. Let viewers make up their own minds. Cspan opened the doors to policymaking for all to see bringing you unfiltered content from congress and beyond. A lot has changed in 40 years today that big idea is more relevant than ever. On television and online, cspan is your unfiltered view of government so you can make up your own mind. Cable oro you by your satellite provider. Washington journal continues. 18 years as Americas National Taxpayer Advocate, nina olson will step down from that poster tomorrow. She joins us for one last visit. For viewers that havent seen one of your 20 appearances on this Program Since 2003. Remind them what the National Taxpayer advocate does. Guest the National Taxpayer advocate is appointed by the secretary of treasury and service in the Internal Revenue service and heads the organization Taxpayer Advocate service to help taxpayers solve their problems with the irs. This is really in the dispute resolution area and complexity of law and things like that. Host why are you stepping down after 18 years . Guest i reached a milestone birthday and want to have enough energy for the next phase of my life. 18 years is a long time. Host one of your final projects has been to try and sketch out the complexity of the taxpayer system. We will show viewers the map that your office has helped to sketch out. Why are you doing that . As a we had a roadmap teaching tool for my employees. A very high level one. A little flowchart for years. And i really had been trying to think about how to map out the complexity of the tax system. Started with some pieces of construction paper and about four of us locked ourselves in a room and started moving things around. Led to what became a subway map. Go to different stages of it. We were going to publish the paper one. I kept telling people we need a roadmap and i realized this was the gps generation, nobody had roadmaps anymore. So we had to have an illustration of what a roadmap looks like. Host there is a paper version of that roadmap that you can get as well. Here it is on the table. How do you want taxpayers to use this map . Versionhis paper although its graphically very interesting, its really the predecessor to something that is a digital roadmap. At aroadmap lays out somewhat more detailed level the seven or eight stages of Tax Administration and i hope taxpayers can find themselves in the roadmap if they are under audit. What are their options. Do they agree with the irs. Do they want to appeal it and ministered lee. Do they want to go to tax court. Do they just want to work out a payment plan. We have listed Payment Options on it. Theres all sorts of stuff. If you can track your way through. On the other hand what we are really going to do with it next and i wont be here for this but its already underway is this roadmap forms the basis for a digital roadmap and eventually taxpayers will be able to go to our website and if they get an irs notice regardless of where they are in that system they get an irs notice they will be able to put the number of that notice into our digital roadmap and we will both be able to show you exactly where you are on the map but also tell you in plain english which is an art with that notice means, what steps you need to take, where you can get more information. Where you can get help. And really how did you get here. You can go back and forth with as much complexity or as much highlevel as you want digitally. The second step to getting the digital roadmap. The point is to empower taxpayers so that they know where they are in the system. They can claim their rights and get better results for themselves. Host if you have questions about the u. S. Tax system, if youve had issues in dealing with the irs now would be a great time to call into this program. Phone lines are split up originally prayed eastern or central time zones 202 7488000. Mountain or pacific time zones 202 7488001. Olson, your National Taxpayer advocate will be with us until 10 00 a. M. This morning. On the issue of complexity. How did it get to be so complex . Guest first of all, the tax law is complex. Son taxpayers make mistakes there have got to be processes to address them. I think what has added to a lot of complexity particularly at the beginning of the tax system and that affects so many the advent of Electronic Filing and then all of the cyber issues like Identity Theft and people trying to get fraudulent refunds and things like that just testing the system. Stepsas added a number of that have really affected a lot of taxpayers. Slowed up their refunds and things like that. Whereas maybe if we had drawn this map 20 years ago there would have been a whole section of the map that didnt exist. Today with electronics and digital filing theres a whole section of identifying refund fraud that affects a lot of people who are actually legitimate taxpayers. 1 of theor 2018, 80 tax returns that the irs froze as questionable returns they thought were fraudulent actually turned out to be legitimate. Of 10ts it eight out were legitimate returns and somewhere in that roadmap in the return processing they were delayed and then trying to find out whats going on with their refund. Host i know you are stepping down tomorrow, but do you think its only going to get more complex . Guest yes. Thats why its very important to have this digital tooling so taxpayers can find their way. Because what weve found is that if you dont know your way around the system you wont get the right result. The irs wont get the information that you have that would let them be able to say you are the legitimate taxpayer. We can let your refund go out. Or maybe it will take months to find that out. And taxpayers need their money. So there has got to be a way to navigate the system. The other thing thats happening that i think is not good at all is that the irs is really trying to push people to selfservice online. Bank does this or amazon does this or your airline does this and i keep saying the irs is not an airline. It is not a bank. It is the tax agency and it can do terrible things to taxpayers. It is the most powerful creditor in the world or in the United States at least. And so we need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to the taxpayers of the United States when they want to talk to us about their taxes. Host taxpayers have picked up the phone to talk to you. We will start with ralph. Good morning. Caller good morning. I have two questions for nina. Host we are going to work on having nina olson here. Try that again one more time. Go ahead with your question. Caller i have two questions for her. And im going to hang up. Im a vitaestion is site coordinator and as you know we use tax layer and keeps itsng 1040 and they say up to the irs to put it on one. My second question for sole proprietors and independent contractors what should they do to reduce the risk of being put under an audit . Tost first of all i want thank you for volunteering at a vita site. Income taxlunteer assistance and they are volunteers who give up their time to help taxpayers by preparing their returns for free. And they are throughout the country and many sites actually operate throughout the year because some people get extensions and some even to back year past year returns. They are very dedicated people and we are so fortunate that people are willing to give up their time to do it. So the irs gives them some software to do. What happened with the 1040 this year is that the Treasury Department mandated that the irs redesign the iconic 1040 form. And they wanted to get it all on a postcard sized sheet of paper. Namely half a sheet of an eight and a half by 11. What that ended up is instead of about two pages, front and a back, we ended up with six schedules that were half paid. Some of the schedules schedule six only had three or four lines on it. So ive tried to figure out how many trees we have destroyed in just printing out copies of returns even if you file digitally. Your softwareith is if you have your 1040 just a simple page, its going to print out half on one page and half on another page. The irs really didnt have anything to say about it. They were told they had to do it and they follow the instructions. They do have another draft out for this coming year because preparers and taxpayers complained so much about the fact that it was very confusing. The information just moved from one page to another. It doesnt flow like the 1040 does. It just wastes a lot of paper and preparers in particular found it very disturbing. , the iconicow moved 1040 has three quarters of the page. There is still a quarter of a page thats blank. Who knows. Maybe in another five years we will be back to a full page 1040 because it really makes a lot of sense. I have been going through my files and i did come up with a whereevision from 2005 the 1040 had gotten so crammed that the type was so small and we didnt have any room to put anything else on and the irs proposed crating one separate schedule and moving certain things onto that. That never got anywhere. So ive sent that off to people to say see this . This was a good idea. So we will see. Host the colors other questions was about sole proprietors and business owners. What they can do to reduce the risk of being audited. Guest they have to be very careful about travel and entertainment expenses. They need to have documentation. They need to keep their documentation. The other thing they need to have is if they use their travel expenses like and automobile they need to have contemporaneous records. They need to keep track of the Business Records and the mileage because otherwise that will be disallowed. The other thing is that there are a lot of people out there who say you are selfemployed, you can write this off, that off. Really use common sense. You cannot write your children off. You cannot write your dog off. Write personal expenses off through a sole proprietorship. As i only say to people, live your life thinking that you dont want the irs to come in. For 27sented taxpayers years before it became the National Taxpayer advocate and i have seen over four million cases as the National Taxpayer advocate in my Organization Since i became it. And the irs enters your life at the absolute worst time of your life. It will find you when you are down. Thats just to me whats happened. So just dont test it. Host rapid city, south dakota. Larry. Good morning. Caller good morning. Taxes since iying was probably 17. Away doing myt own taxes because my dad showed me how to do it. Simple back then. Throughout my life as ive gone through life, 71 now, i learned how to do my own taxes. That was when i was buying a house and then i got children and other things. Own taxes andmy doing it right. Nobody is auditing me. Im doing it right. I keep doing it that same way. Until last year. I like to call my new chin is a more on. Take something thats good and break it. Im doing, ok, i do all these things and my job has changed a little bit. Im not on the road as much as i used to be. So i dont have as many expenses as i used to have. Whatever 40 some years i was audited once and that was when i had a home office in my house that i was and sellinglies brochures. They wouldnt let me have it. Host what was the concern last year . Caller last year it was totally different. It was totally different. I had three pages roughly three pages that i had to do. And i was trying to figure it out. I thought, why not go down to one of these tax preparers. They wanted 150 to do three pages. So i said the heck with that. Its like when i go to the hospital and i banged my fingers and they charge you 5,000 paid im not going to do that. You are describing basically a lot of taxpayers experiences with the new form. And i think thats why they are making some changes this year. Not enough. I really believe they should have left the basic 1040 alone and just created a simpler form for people who have plainvanilla taxes and just left it at that and made that a postcard for those people. There are about early percent of the u. S. Taxpayers that can fill out that postcard type return but for the 70 , the rest of the taxpayers, they have had experiences like what you described. The home thing about office deduction, one of the things my office recommended and im glad to see the irs created only recently was a standard deduction for an office in the home. So instead of having to fill out a very complicated form, if you just take the standard deduction which is based on Square Footage theomething, that minimizes likelihood of you being audited. It may not give you if you protract every single penny as much of a deduction. It also gives you some security and its really a safe harbor. I thought that was a very helpful thing for taxpayers because when they start really tracking the details they get it wrong. Or they have to go to a preparer and pay that amount of money and i applaud you for trying to do your own taxes. Its a painful process, i know. Richard, good morning. My question is about the president s tax returns. He refuses to disclose them because hes under audit. My question is is that a valid argument. How long can he use that argument. And why cant we go back to like 20122013 and get his tax returns. Ill take this call off the air. Guest i cant really comment on that because it is under active litigation and i think that your questions are in fact exactly what the courts are going to determine. Clear thatme is very the chairman of the ways and Means Committee and the chairman of the Senate Finance committee have the ability to ask for any taxpayers tax returns. Cards by law. We have to guard the confidentiality of taxpayer and tax return information. Criminal are civil and penalties for violating that confidentiality. The law also has lots of and exceptions for the Senate Finance committee to get anybodys tax return is one of those exceptions and it has been honored in the past and so the issues that are at play now dealing with the role of the president and the president s tax returns are really before the courts and i think we just all have to Pay Attention and see what the courts say. Host who picks the next National Taxpayer advocate . Guest it is the secretary of the treasury in consultation with the commissioner of the Internal Revenue service and the irs Oversight Board and right now there is no irs Oversight Board operating so it would be in consultation with the commissioner and they have not chosen my successor yet. Host do you have any concerns about whether that person will be independent, able to criticize the irs . Guest im always concerned about that. I also have a lot of confidence in my organization. People see me as the spokesperson for the organization but they forget that there are 1600 employees behind there and a Senior Leadership team who make my job able to be able to do my job and they will continue to do their job when i walk out the door tomorrow. Said also think and i have this. I have met with members of congress and said this to the commissioner and anyone who would listen to me. That congress created this position. They view this position as their eyes and ears inside the irs as well as being a voice of the taxpayer on a daily basis with irs employees. And i think that if you get a weak person, then congress will have something to say about that. And certainly the taxpayers and representatives of taxpayers of the United States will have something to say about that. And if that is something we have to go through to remind people about the need for independence in this position and that is something we have to go through. Host how often did congress and the irs commissioner listen to you over the years . Guest i meet with members of congress all the time. I have testified before congress over 60 times during my tenure. Just recently with the legislative recommendations up until earlier this year we had about 16 or so just laid of recommendations enacted into law. Congress passed and the president signed the Taxpayer First act and that is an incredibly porton piece of containing taxpayer rights and i have tracked about 16 or 17 of our recommendations finding their form in one way or another in that piece of legislation and we worked very closely with both ways and means and Senate Finance committee staff. Even this highly polarized and partisan time, taxpayer rights is a unifying issue. Its nonpartisan. Bill. S was a bipartisan the house and senate and republicans at democratic staff worked very closely together to get this bill through. You saw it come through with a very strong vote. Now the commissioner listens to me whether he or she wants to or not. I am direct report to the commissioner and i see the commissioner regularly and when i need to talk to him i say i need to talk to you. And i shoot out emails all the time and im a member of the Senior Executive team that they have to listen to me. Agree and as they lot of times they probably find it annoying. Recently lots of people have been saying i have learned so much from you and thank you so much for your service. Im thinking, why didnt you listen to me 12 years ago when i raised this issue . Important tovery be inside the irs because so much happens that doesnt get public and so much happens that you can get stopped before it actually really hits the public and thats critical. The you hear just walking hallways is incredibly important. Host we have about a halfhour left this morning with your National Taxpayer advocate, nina olson. Steve has been waiting in arizona. Good morning. Caller good morning. I have a couple of questions. Know what does an employee do when he 89 himself . Host you are going in and out. Try that one more time to see if we can get it. Caller and ok. Im having problems with my little phone. My question is about taxpayer rights. I have a few questions. I can hear the repeater. Host go ahead and say your question. Theer when a person does 1099 on themselves that makes them responsible for their half of the taxes from their employer . Guest yes. You are responsible for the employer and Employee Share of the Social Security and medicare taxes. His we lost him but he got question in. Anthony and indianapolis is next. Good morning. Caller i have two questions. They are both related to filing your taxes late. Ive had a lot of things happen in my life over the last several years which have caused me to be late in getting the filing done and when i started getting those done then ive run into some issues. The Taxpayer Advocate was extremely helpful a few years ago because the issue was i had filed. You have three years from the time that its due to claim your refund. All of my luckily had been refunds and i filed and it was the year where there was the emancipation day. It was the holidays that extend the deadline beyond april 15. And i filed and it was after the and before that final date the irs wouldnt release the refund because they said i had filed too late. The Taxpayer Advocate was helpful. I had showed the booklet that was the actual date and so on. The same thing is happening again unfortunately for me. On howd an explanation that all works with those dates and what i can do to avoid it. It still happened and i had no idea until i was like why dont i have it yet and got a hold of the advocate office and we unfortunately have never talked. Ive left messages. Host thanks for the call this morning. Guest first of all, the dates becausely screwy washington, d. C. Does have emancipation day and the way the lord reads is the due date is there is aether federal holiday in the district of columbia. So sometimes if it hits on the 15th or a weekend and its the first monday but if the first monday is emancipation day then its the next day and then one year at the irs systems went down on the last day of the Filing Season and so they added an extra day just administratively because you literally could not file. Fileif you were trying to electronically you could not file. But it sounds like you are filing on paper and if you are filing on paper one thing i would do and its a drag, but i would really do this, is a file it with the Certified Mail return receipt requested. Yourat you have proof of mailing. Not just the postmark but that you are holding that little receipt that says that you mailed it on that date and just using a postal meter wont be accepted. And then you have the green card coming back from the irs saying that theyve received it and somebody signed it in case they want to argue that they didnt receive it but i think what you have to do is prove, with tax returns its the date that you mailed it. That counts as if it were received by the irs on that day. If you timely mail it. If you dont mail it by the due date and you mail it the day whenever the irs receives it. We called at the mailbox rule. You to lookncourage online at Taxpayer Advocate. Irs. Gov. I dont know which office you are in of the Taxpayer Advocate service but you can look online to get the phone number for the office that you are in which will go to the secretary generally for the local Taxpayer Advocate and tell them that you have not received a response from your case advocate. And in that way that might prompt a response. My people are really swamped right now because earlier i was talking about refund fraud. Our cases dealing with taxpayers whose refunds have been held up this Filing Season had just skyrocketed through the roof and my people are really like its almost whack a mole. Dealing with one issue here and another issue comes up and we have to deal with another one. We have not been as good about getting back to people as quickly as we want. Host is it that more of the fraud is happening these days . The irs is more that freezing many more returns and not being able to get through them quickly enough so taxpayers start getting desperate and then they get to the Taxpayer Advocate and often its just the irs sending them to the Taxpayer Advocate after a certain amount of time. To getre really trying through these cases and get these refunds released. Ss just date tell you john deluge onse on us us. Host charles is in pennsylvania. Good morning. Caller my filing status for 2019 has changed from filing jointly to filing single. Trying to get forms applicable to the tax year 2019 so publication 17 off dividends and Capital Gains Social Security taxable. I have to pay and im sort of guessing right now. When are those forms going to be available . The forms 2019 usually arent available until october or so. And maybe even not until later in the year. The irs right now is going through. Im not sure that there have been major changes so you could sort of look at the 2018 forms. The standard deduction may increase a little bit by inflation adjustment. Formould also look at the 1040es for 2019. That is the estimated tax form where youre supposed to pay taxes incrementally if youve got investments or selfemployment tax. But there is a worksheet on that form with rates scheduled and thats what you could use and its for 2019 and so its a ballpark but you could use that to try to figure out where you are in the process. By patching together 2018 publication 17 and using the 1040 es for 20 you could get to a good enough answer and then look for the forms around the end of the year. That congress will do some technical corrections before the end of the year. This was the first real year with the tax cuts and job act changes and we are seeing things that need to be tweaked a little bit and im sort of hoping that congress will do those tweaks before the end of the year and thats another reason why irs would sort of wait to see if there are any legislative changes lastminute which usually does happen unfortunately. Host stephen in new york. Good morning. Caller hi. I see that the website tax map. Irs. Gov is being host is being what . Caller its being discontinued. It says attention, irs tax map will no longer be updated after october 25, 2019. They are still going to have the to 2018. Or 2012 guest i dont know what irs tax map is. I dont think thats my product. Ours is the roadmap and its available through the Taxpayer Advocate. Irs. Gov. What that is. I know the irs has had some maybe they decided our map was so much better that they didnt need their map. I will go back and check on that. I really dont know the answer to that. Thanks for drawing that to my attention. Host grant here in washington, d. C. , go ahead. Caller for the last 10 years i have been tried to get a straight answer from the irs on whether its legal to make taxdeductible donations to Illegal Israeli West Bank settlements. In 2010i got commissioner Douglas Shulman on the phone live on npr and he totally dodged answering the questions. Ive paid up to 1000 to get an official irs ruling on whether its legal to deduct charitable contributions west bank settlements. Others have tried to get a straight answer. But the irs seems to be part of a problem. It even recently changed its 990 forms to omit destinations for such contribution. And from my end it looks like the irs is colluding in a massive fraud that allows americans to deduct these contributions in support of illegal activities. So maybe this can be your last mission to get a little accountability at the irs. Guest im not really familiar with that issue specifically, but i can say in order for you in the u. S. Tax system to be able to write off a deduction as a charitable contribution, the charity needs to be a 501 c 3 organization. Which means it needs to have come into the irs and have an exempt, fill out a form 1023 which is an application for taxexempt status and then get a determination letter from the irs that says that this is a charity for scientific Educational Charitable purposes and qualifies for people to be able to deduct their contributions under the Internal Revenue code. ,nd so unless the settlements unless there is Something Else that im not aware of which is unless theible, settlements actually have that determination ruling from the Internal Revenue service, you cant deduct to those things. That would be true whether it was a settlement in the United States, a settlement in palestine, a settlement in israel. It wouldnt really matter. Ave to be recognized as Charitable Organization under the laws. The internal, revenue code. That would be the starting point. Sometimes overseas contributions are difficult. I will also say that there is an organization in treasury that looks at terrorist financing and so some overseas charities, people are uncomfortable giving money to even if they can even if they dont care about getting a deduction because they dont want to run afoul. You cant really trace where the money is going once its overseas and the penalties are very great. Overseas create a u. S. Corporation like friends of this settlement or something and in that way they become recognized as a u. S. Charity and you can give money to that u. S. Charity. Im really just talking off the top of my head about this because im not familiar with the issues. I have knowledge about taxexempt organizations in general. Im not trying to dodge i dont think that theres a conspiracy. Is a do think that this very complex area of law and its really complex just in terms of overseas charities. Host this is jerry in oregon. Good morning. Caller hello . Im 65yearold and i have two pensions, one thats 120 and the other is 42. And they say we dont make enough to file. So i havent filed for the last two or three years. Will i get in trouble for that . Guest i cant tell from what you are exactly what your situation is. But you know there is a standard deduction for each person which is 12,000 a year last year. And more so if you are married. Double that if you are married filing joint. And that comes a smack off the top of your income. You may have itemized deductions. What you might want to do again is take you could go online, the irs has a program called free file. It also has three syllable forms or you could try it by the 1040es form and just fill out the worksheet and see whether it really does show up that you dont have to file. If you are below the filing threshold you dont have to file unless you have tax withheld and you want to claim a refund. And if you have a refund coming to you and you dont claim it, within three years of the due date of the return, or two years from making the payment into the system, you forfeit that money. And thats what a previous caller talked about the possibility of. We all need to pay our taxes rightfully, but you dont need to pay more than what you out. So you shouldnt leave money on the table. Left inout 15 minutes our program today. We will be taking viewers up to the Governmental Affairs committee. A hearing on migration at the u. S. Southern border. You can see the room starting to fill up a little bit. We are with the u. S. National Taxpayer Advocate nina olson. 18 years of stepping down tomorrow. Any regrets . The alternative minimum tax hasnt been repealed from the code. I dont really do regrets. Day ase to face each its presented to you. Think its been very interesting time and i think its never been dealt. So i dont have any regrets. Host taking your calls this morning. Phone lines split up regionally. Ast on central 202 7488000 mountain and pacific 202 7488001. Leonardo is in college park, maryland. Good morning. Caller i filed my taxes at the right time and i got a letter back the third of may saying that my taxes verification operations. My question in that regard is does the irs have a time limit to verify a refund before we get them . Or can they just do it with no limits . Thats pretty much my question. Thank you. Guest the first thing i want you to do is you are in college park. There is a local Taxpayer Advocate office in baltimore, maryland. You can look that up online at Taxpayer Advocate. Irs. Gov. And you can call that office directly. And tell them i sent you. Because you heard me on cspan and you talked to me. And they will open a case to find out what is going on with your return. But this is what i was talking about earlier in this session. This is part of the return processing section of filing your return if you look on the roadmap. Matchingrs has been w2s with what taxpayers file including their withholdings that they are reporting from their w2s with what employers file. And if they get a mismatch or your employer has not yet filed their w2s with the irs. They may be late themselves. The irs puts a freeze on the return and doesnt issue the refund until after theyve been able to do the matching. And this is something weve been on their case about for about four years now. And this is what i was talking about. Weve gotten swamped with taxpayers whose returns have been held up. The irs has frozen a great deal of these returns. And they are slowly working their way through. And you have been waiting way too long. Its already july. And therefore you certainly qualify for our assistance. The Taxpayer Advocate Service Assistance where we will give you a case advocate. One person who is responsible for your case and you will have a tollfree number for that person but you will have to probably leave voice messages because we are so swamped right now. That person will be working your case and we will find out whatever information the irs needs from you and we will work it so we can get the refund released if theres been an error or something. We will help you resolve that error so you can get this return moved on. This is part of the experience that many taxpayers are and its right for the irs to want to make sure we are not paying out money we shouldnt be paying. But they need to have processes in place and frankly they need more employees to be able to work through the number of returns theyve got quickly and not put the burden on the taxpayer. So just call Taxpayer Advocate service in baltimore and they will help you. Host on twitter offers congratulations on 18 years at such a stressful job how stressful has it been and whats the next adventure . Guest theres not a day without stress. Theres not a day without some kind of conflict. I just think, walk a day in my shoes. Just see how that works. Because you are walking into a room full of people and saying i know youve been working on this program for months but you havent thought about how this affects the taxpayers and you need to address this before i let you go forward and nobody likes that. So that just comes with the territory. I know my mission. I know what our job is which is to help taxpayers resolve their problems with the irs and part of that is to prevent problems from happening so thats in the Job Description and thats what i do. Whats next . One of the things i did in this position and the International Conference on taxpayer rights. We also got congress to enact the taxpayer bill of rights and ive been working around the world with other tax agencies and learning about what others founded aand so i nonprofit called the center for taxpayer rights and i will continue to do my taxpayer rights work both here and around the world. One thing ive been thinking about doing through the center which will come into activity on august 1 when i leave this job is may be working along the line of a taxpayer receipt. Oft taxpayers could sort putting their information. It would be all anonymous and we would work very hard to figure out how you couldnt trace it back to the taxpayer. They can see where their tax dollars go. Because i really believe that people dont understand what taxes due. The irs sort of blame when the irs is just the administrator. Branch andecutive congress who decide how you are spending the public fisk and i think people need to be better educated about taxes. I thought doing this goes to this kind of activity and this goes here. You may disagree with it but that means go and vote. Host owensboro, kentucky is next. Income i have no earned and my question is if i won a sizable amount of money in the put the sizable amount of money in my bank collectorss bill going to receive that money . Guest each state has its own garnishing bank accounts. I can only talk about the federal government and i think that when you win the lottery they do the withholding and you would want to file an income tax return if you have a refund or just to report that make sure youve paid in the right amount. If you dont make payment arrangements, the irs can go into your bank account and levy upon the proceeds of a bank account. And they dont need to go to court to do that. They just need to give you a and right to aes hearing or you could say i dont think i o this. They can ultimately levy on your bank account. In terms of other creditors thats really a function of state law. And i dont know kentucky state law. Host 10 minutes if you want to get your questions in about the tax system. Skyler is in laurel, maryland. Good morning. Caller i just had a quick question. Justnk a lot of people have situations where you are married and you have a couple of kids and you work one job and your spouse works a job and thats really kind of your life and the government obviously will take taxes out of your paycheck automatically or your employer has helped for you. Irsuestion is why cant the just sort of simply track that information or have you self certify that you are married, you have this many kids. Do then just automatically your taxes and issue you a refund without you having to file. It doesntally really seem that complicated. I realize there are complicated tax situations. Situations itle could just be done automatically. Guest thats a really great question. Many Tax Administrations around the world actually do it that way. But their systems are actually structured a little differently from ours. So where that system really works well is the tax system just taxes the individual. They dont look at family household. They address the needs of children through other payouts. Not through the tax system. So you are just text on your earnings like if you are a worker. Then your paycheck has the right in and of taxes taken out and youre done. We dont have to file unless you are selfemployed or you have significant Investment Income interest or Capital Gains and then you just file to report that and actually because the tax agency knows about the Capital Gains they can often just take withholding out of that and you are done with that so its really only if you are selfemployed. And you are making income outside of an employment situation. Thats the way the vast majority of the world is structured. The United States is different. Since almost the beginning of the code we have taxed the household as the taxable unit. So you need to know the marital status and you need to know the children and under our laws you need to know where the children reside for more than half the year in order to be able to claim them. And we know although there are many families where the children are just one unit and you stay and you are very stable, more and more children moved between different households where there are multigenerational households or they are in households where there is no biological parent in the household. Basically i dont think u. S. Taxpayers want the irs to have that amount of detailed information about their personal lives so that we would know that from some secret database somewhere and fill that in. That the irs say cant get close to a situation. We did a study this year. We put it in our annual report to congress that we published in february in the Research Section where we found that if the irs did withholding on six or seven different types of income like interest and dividends and of course employment and Unemployment Compensation et cetera, you could pretty much make it so that about 67 of the u. S. Taxpayers would be withheld ok and they wouldnt necessarily have to file a return except to tell us their family status. At my proposal has been the irs should since we get this information anyway the irs should make this Information Available so taxpayers could download it into Free File Software which is free for certain income levels or free syllable forms which is free to everybody. Can electronically file it with the irs or the software of your voice and it would be as good as having a prepopulated return for many many people. Anytime somebody starts talking about prepopulation however the u. S. Software industry goes berserk. And they go up to the hill and they Lobby Congress and they say the irs is competing with the private sector. I just am flummoxed by that argument because what ive just described is actually a partnership with the private sector and makes it so that irs can be downloaded into the private Sector Software if the taxpayer chooses that and many taxpayers choose the private software because it links to their personal finance software and everything. But really structurally the irs to have the kind of simple reconciled return partly because we dont have true pay as you earn system and secondly because we tax the family unit. Child credits and urban income credits. We run a lot of social benefit programs through the code which require a lot of information from the taxpayer that the irs doesnt have and many other countries dont do that. So that really adds a whole layer of complexity. Host time for a few more calls this morning. Ron in watertown, south dakota. Good morning. Caller my question or my comment is this. I know a little bit about the tax code. And from what i can gather, one of the real holes in the tax code is business deductions. Yet to really come up with an answer as to what is a business deduction. Near as i can figure, if you are in business, all you need to do is somehow connected your daily life to your business and its a tax deduction. Is that correct . Guest no. Really great Supreme Court case about what is a business deduction. The Internal Revenue code says it needs to be ordinary and necessary in the course of maintaining a business. Lots of caselaw about whats ordinary and whats necessary. And you have to look at the line of business to see is this an ordinary deduction that most people in this line of business would incur . You also have the component of necessary. It may not be an ordinary expense. In that line of business. But it is necessary for you to carry on that line of business. Of the Supreme Court case is said and it really is one of my favorite quotes, life informits fullness shall what constitutes ordinary and necessary. Look atave to really the specific facts and circumstances of the taxpayers case and look at what is going on in that business in the world. It doesnt go down to a formula. It is about the vagaries of human existence and business. But as i said earlier, you can be too cute by half and the irs will come down on you like a sledgehammer at the worst time in your life. And that is just my observation and i personally dont want to live my life that way. Tonow people have tried justify all sorts of personal travel expenses saying its ordinary or its necessary for my business and thats a hard case to make and youre going to have to have a ton of documentation to make that case. I think keep those words in ordinary and necessary. Host we asked about regrets. When you leave tomorrow, what will you count as your biggest success at the office of the National Taxpayer advocate . Guest i think one thing, i came in in 2001. The Taxpayer Advocate service had just stood up. It was in its infancy in a way. And it was just a really dedicated team. 2200 employees and 1600 employees now. A dedicated group of people. We are an institution that will continue on helping taxpayers and we helped over 4 million taxpayers to date and im very proud that it will continue on doing that. I am also proud of taxpayer document. We dont know what that means yet. It will probably take the kids before goes to the courts. We understand what that means and how it is fullest irs behavior, and just a whole bunch of things. Im proud of the roadmap, but im just really proud of the organization itself. Olson, a National Taxpayer advocate, thank you. Guest thank you. Host that will do it for our program today. We will be back here tomorrow morning at 7 00 a. M. Eastern, 4 00 a. M. Pacific. We will take you to the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs committee for a hearing on migration at the u. S. Southern border