Any oral Opening Statements after the hearing are limited to the chairman and the ranking vicer, the vice chair and Ranking Member this allows us to hear from our witnesses sooner and helps members keep their schedule. I am told that votes are expected in 30 minutes. We will recess for those of votes than we will come back as soon as we can get that series finished. I apologize for the inconvenience but sometimes that is the way we have to do things. Thanks to everyone for joining us to discuss International Trophy hunting today. Trophy hunting can be an incredibly divisive issue. Americans, it can be deeply disturbing to see photos with slainposing lions, elephants, or charismatic animals. Many believe the trophy hunting typically done by extremely wealthy individuals is different in character than the responsible sustainable hunting and angling traditions that are so widely embraced in our country. Illicitunting elicits mixed feelings even in sportsmans country. That is often the most sought after thrill for trophy hunters. Who paid five or six figures to kill vulnerable and threatened animals like lions. Trophy hunters claim that by paying those large amounts of money, it ostensibly goes towards conservation. They are helping the endangered animals that they kill. Whether that brand of pay to kill Conservation Works is debatable. It is something we will examine more closely today as we discuss the bill. Ceasingng ecosystems by or the cecil act. Lion killedfor the in zimbabwe in 2015 by an american trophy hunter. It would protect species from trophy hunting import licensing at the time that they are under theor listing endangered species act. This is to prevent a rush to hunt those proposed species. It would require that the fish and Wildlife Service go back and analyze whether trophy imports to the u. S. Actually enhanced the conservation of the species and the country where they were hunted. This is the claim trophy hunters make. Lets verify it. Lets make sure the appropriate safeguards are in place for allowing importation of endangered and threatened animal trophies. Trophy hunters wanted their hearts to support conservation, they should support this. Andake sure their community u. S. Wildlife officials are not being bamboozled by corrupt operators or lacks practices in these countries. Requiring these safeguards, the bill directs the gao to determine whether trophy hunting in Foreign Countries actually contributes to Wildlife Conservation. It asks gao for recommendations for reforms to the industry. This is important to make sure our policy decisions are based on facts not wishful narratives. Someeed for at least reform seems obvious. It right now, the cost of a ormit to import a threatened endangered animal trophy is 100. That fee covers 8 of the cost of the permit program that the fish and Wildlife Service, the rest is subsidized. A gift from u. S. Taxpayers to trophy hunters who can afford to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to import them animal from another country. Even if you support having a program for millionaires and billionaires to experience the thrill of killing a bear or lien and hanging it on a wall. Must most would agree that the taxpayers should not be subsidizing 92 of the cost. In the current administration, the nra called shots on these matters. At their bidding, the Trump Administration has made a trump trophy hunting much easier without any of the appropriate oversight that one would expect. Revokednistration has the fish and Wildlife Service is now examining these trophy imports on a casebycase basis. Administratione loosened trophy hunting standards in a way that weakens protections, they have also created a sham Advisory Committee. The socalled International Wildlife council who explicitly requires it to promote trophy hunting. Council withhe trophy hunting enthusiast, nra representatives, celebrated trophy hunters, and advocates from trophy hunting organizations. Guess who is not on the committee. Wildlife biologist. Clearly the administration does not consider itself bound by the federal Advisory Committee act which requires the committees ine this be fairly balanced terms of the points of view represented and not to be inappropriately influenced by the appointing authority or any special interest that the law requires that. The cecil act would eliminate the sham Advisory Committee. For those who say trophy hunting promotes conservation lets make sure it is done right with peerreviewed science with oversight to prevent corruption or harm to communities and with conservation in mind. That is what the cecil act does. If we are going to have a government sanctioned program for importing endangered animal trophies we have the responsibility to make sure that hunting is conducted in an honest verifiable sustainable and ethical way. The cecil act takes important steps in that direction. I will turn it over to the Ranking Member for his comments. We meet today to consider hr 2245. In an attempt to discourage trophy hunting. As we will hear from the nations directly affected, the practical effect of the bill will remove the resentenced incentives. I have a confession to make i am not a hunter. I dont understand its appeal and never have. This is not a moral judgment. I dont understand the appeal of stamp collecting either its not my thing. [laughter] enjoyonsumer, i happen to steak and hamburgers but i dont think i could ever slaughter a cow. I am awfully glad that there are others who can and regularly do in fact we slaughter 35 million cows and calves in this country every year. They should be on the endangered species list because at this rate cows should be extinct in this country by next year yet we never seem to run out of cows and calves. They have value. That value is what provides the incentive to breed them and care for them. The danger occurs will may run afoul with what economists call the tragedy of in those cases, regulation becomes an important part of sustainability. Too many takings in the species can be threatened extinction but too few takings can dim a species to overcrowding and overpopulation which nature then regulates brutally through disease, starvation, and math die off. This build is not make these distinctions. I understand the passions behind it. As Benjamin Franklin warned, passion governs but she never governs wisely. Case, i wish we Pay Attention to the governments of zimbabwe, tanzania, and other governments on his affairs we are meddling. They highly depend upon healthy animal populations for significant part of their Economic Development and incentive tory protect these populations and have resources to do so. Regulated trophy hunting is a central part of that equation. Its a major source of the incentives of revenues they need to maintain his populations. If we collapse trophy hunting we destroy the very incentives and revenues that underpin their conservation efforts. Trophy hunting places a high value on these animals. Incentivizing landowners and governments to maintain the habitats necessary to support healthy populations so they can be harvested. Hunting,lapse trophy there is no incentive to maintain these habitats. Major hunting produces revenues for these governments to support their conversation programs. This bill would cut off those revenues. Where trophy hunting is legal and regulated, incentives to combat illegal poaching are immense. Illegal poaching is a direct threat to the commerce generated by legal hunting. If we collapse legal hunting, the incentive to combat illegal poaching collapses along with it. Legal, trophy hunting is it can be monitored and regulated to assure the Sustainable Management of these populations for all time. Trophiese the traded in illegal, we forfeit our ability to regulate this trade and instead give it to the underground market. We promote time, poaching as a viable alternative to regulated and licensed takings. The colonial attitude toward africa has always been that we in the west no better than the african nations of what is good for them. On that basis, the american left has sought to deny them cheap Energy Sources to lift them out disruptty and it would the extensive african conversation practices that are contributing to a Sustainable Development of their Natural Resources. Respect then to and government of zimbabwe speaking for 23 african nations that depend on hunting for their conservation programs and their Economic Development. When the government tells us countries like the United States are expected to play a leading role in promoting activities that benefit conservation and humanity rather than enacting laws that will prejudice other sovereign countries like zimbabwe of our benefits from good conservation practices. When we do well in conserving wildlife, we do not expect to receive penalties and punishments from our most important trade partner, the United States. Dont you think that by enacting the proposed cecil act which is based on unrealistic and philosophical ideologies is disempowering governments and local communities indeed that will be another form of violating our human rights. With that mr. Chairman, i would the to note the presence in audience of a man who is here representing the republic of namibia who i believe holds a view similar to those that will be discussed by the representative from the government of zimbabwe. I ask unanimous consent that our from alaska and georgia be allowed to sit with the subcommittee and participate. Without objection and welcome to our subcommittee. We will now begin our testimony starting with the sponsor will i of the cecil act. The next five minutes is yours. Thank you and good morning. Appreciate this hearing very much and all of the work that this committee has done in terms of bringing up very good legislation and i appreciate your work and the work of the staff. I was thinking because i called home to talk to my grandbabies about going to see lion king because that premieres tonight at midnight and i have to tell you and your staff this impeccable timing by the way. I said wait for me i think we are going to get a break and we will go see the movie together. They would not wait. I guess i am going to see that one by myself. , i mentioned that i may suggest to the opponents of the cecil act like the nra that it would behoove membership with its brutal internal strikes going on and litigation and declining revenue that on this particular issue, the American People overwhelmingly support and even more so they tread lightly. One of their former principal lobbyists is now the secretary. F interior its not just about public opinion. We worked hard on this piece of legislation. We invited the department of interior to testify on this bill. One can conjecture some regions reasons for that denial. I agree with the guy. But when the president called trophy hunting a horror show, maybe they disagree with that position. Nra and the sierra club Safari Club International their Foundation One of the biggest proponents felt that it wasnt appropriate for interior to be here and give testimony to this committee. When i introduced the first cecil act in 2015 at the time, to bewere only proposed listed under the indies endangered species act. Ban there no species to trophies in the United States. Science was saying lions were in but our policies were lagging to say the least. Trophy importsd of species that are supposed to be listed. Addition, after cecil was killed the Committee Published a to assist the impacts of trophy hunting to conserve threatening endangered wildlife in certain countries. The report found that while it preferable possible to enhance the seat species the barneys to be set higher. Trophy import fees are far too low and more needs to be done to ensure the trophy hunting does benefit conservation. After our report was released, and donald trump can the president , rather than taking this recommendations for any time of consideration, the administration put forward a number of new harmful policies. We went back to the drafting table and the version of the cecil act based on findings of the report and seeks to write many of the wrongs of this administration. The policy on trophy hunting are representational of an overarching foundational problem. We have seen from this administration. Not only is it another handout to the nra, they are antiscience and in a fit the rich to the detriment of most americans who care about wildlife. Has suddenly become an ideology i will plead guilty. I know we all hear claims today that trophy hunting benefits Conservation Area and let me be clear, pulling the trigger is not equal conservation. If those folks claim trophy hunting can be positive conservation outcomes lets qualify and quantify what those outcomes are. Including the political and scientific frameworks that make conservation successful. That is the core of the cecil act. If we are going to do any trophy hunting, we have to use the highest standard to ensure that we are protecting threatened and endangered species. With that, thank you very much for the hearing and i yield back. Thank you. I will now introduce our witnesses for the panel. Virus. St witness is she is the Wildlife Program manager at the Humane Society international. And directorfessor of Lion Research at the university of minnesota. Following him will be the Deputy Director of wildlife trade in the National Resource defense council. Next from the university of a researchwe have fellow there. Aen we will hear from Research Fellow at a property and Environment Research center. From the government of zimbabwe, we will hear from the executive Technical Advisor of the parks and Wildlife Management authority. You that you must limit your statement to five minutes. There will be a green light at the one minute limit point. It will turn yellow. And when youre time is expired it will turn red and i will ask you to conclude. No worry if you cant get your entire statement in. Your entire written statement will appear as part of the hearing record. I will also allow the entire panel to testify before we bring it back to the members for their questions. Recognizeshe chair the first for five minutes. Thank you. I represent the Humane Society of the United States. The Humane Society international, and the Humane Society legislative fund. Thank you for the opportunity to 225. Fy in support of hr our gratitude goes to the chairman for introducing this important legislation. Four years ago this month, cecil was lord out of the national park, shot by an american hunter with a narrow, suffering 10 agonizing hours before the hunter finished him off the next day. Adding insult to energy, two years later, cecils oldest song son was also killed by a hunter not far from where cecil was killed. Cecil was a beloved International Icon and generated revenues of the tourism industry. Both liens were vital components to Oxford Universitys studies and lets not forget, both were fathers. The trophy hunting industry attempted to quickly draw away from cecils killer and the circumstances surrounding it, the highprofile killings epitomized the true nature of the trophy hunting industry. One that encourages killing rare animals, ignores science, travels on conservation, disregards wildlife laws, and fuels corruption and wildlife trafficking. Hunting quotas are often overshot area did not based on science, they lack independent reviews area agent limitations are not enforced. Hunting regulations are funded. Hundred hunters hunt toll they display their conquest at home. There is irrefutable Scientific Evidence to trophy hunting has contributed to substantial clients in lion and leopard populations across africa and have the species in danger of extinction. Animalste removals of by trophy hunters have cascading effects by disrupting social cohesion and population stability. It also magnifies human wildlife conflict. When older all elephants in groups for the male head of the lion pride or are renewed, removed, the males become more aggressive resulting in an increased incidence of infanticide. Onesls are not the only that lose in the trophy hunting enterprise. Get paid a price and key wildlife disappears. Safaris contribute significantly much more sustainable and substantial than trophy hunting and they also generate more jobs. Trophy hunting contributes to 0. 0 of the annual gdp of the eight countries surveyed in 2017. And 500ng only 7000 jobs. To put this into perspective, a recent report puts tourism supporting 24 million jobs. Generating 48 billion in expenditures for african protected areas. By killing majestic animals for a onetime trophy fee, hunting cripples current and future Tourism Industries and harming Economic Opportunity potentials for the local communities. Theou years ago, i visited chinese official urging his government to ban the commercial elephant ivory. He listened to me and smiled and asked me how about you americans stop hunting elephants first . I was embarrassed. It is up to us to stop contributing to the problems that we are trying to and demanding others to fix. The u. S. Spends billions of dollars annually on foreign aid to help fragile democracies strengthen rule of law and governance. Le american trophy hunters an industry notorious for corruption. It is not just the survival of the species at stake here but our standing as a global leader. Encrypted g is increasingly disdained by africans and americans alike. 80 of respondents oppose importing lion and hunting trophies into the u. S. And 80 of the respondents also opposed. Africans share this sentiment where one person once commented to me when Foreign Countries leave, africa is left with empty forests and bones. Their committee members, this is not a partisan issue. Thes time that we raided United States of this disgraceful representation of the worlds most prolific trophy hunters. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and i look forward to answering any questions that you might have. Recognizes thew next member. Members of thed subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to participate in todays hearing. It is a great honor to appear before you to share my experience as director of the Lion Research center at the university of minnesota. I have worked in africa for over 40 years. My research directly led to changes in wildlife policy that impose an agent minimum for lion trophies and botswana, mozambique, tanzania, and zimbabwe. In 2004ented tanzania and i was asked by their government to analyze their records to measure the impact of past hunting records on the lion off takes. I assembled most of the data across africa that led to the current red list status of liens and i advised u. S. Fish and Wildlife Service during their deliberations to list the african lion as threatened or endangered. Estate africas wildlife has long been the purview of the sport hunting industry. There continues to be a dramatic loss of wildlife numbers across the continent. Asle sport hunting was seen the best way to protect the lesser visited areas, hunting revenues have not succeeded in protecting elephants, giraffes, rhinos, cheetahs, or liens all of which have suffered enormous losses in the past 30 years. This is not to say that sport hunting should be banned. It is in desperate need of reform. Has beenting successful in protecting wildlife in a community of inibia, private reserves south africa and zimbabwe. Botswanas hunting ban in 2014 was ill advised and counterproductive and has recently been reversed. In mozambique, tanzania, zambia the government run hunting reserves have been poorly managed. Currently, as many as one half of the hunting blocks in these countries remain unclaimed with the risk that the land will be removed from the wildlife estate if there is no alternative to support hunting in these areas area the overarching challenge of sport hunting is a tool for conservation is the lack of real and sustainable revenue. The cost of effective lion andervation are between one 2000 dollars per square kilometer per year where is trophy fees or liens are less than 25,000 per animal. The hunter only pays it is hard to successful. Leastia needs to raise at 300 to 600 million per year in hunting revenues that goes to the government to cover the operation costs of conserving their hunting blocks. Yet fewer than 100 liens are harvested every year and the overall shortfall of hunting revenues between one quarter and one half 1 billion every year. Mostees for all of the important trophy species like lions and buffaloes should be significantly increased perhaps by sixfold to come close to covering the cost of protecting their national habitat. While sport hunting has indeed provided some muchneeded funding to conserve a few selected areas, it is not enough. To protect vast swaths of Wildlife Habitat. About a million square kilometers still exist across africa with more and more hunting blocks relying lying unclaimed. Will soon population be overwhelming. By 2050, human population densities in africa will be the same as in india today. Hunting havesport offered no mechanism for raising the necessary funding to protect these areas. New approaches are urgently needed. Hr 2245, specifics of several aspects make good sense. The requirement for transparency and clear evidence of are long overdue and should be welcomed by sports hunters alike. Sectiononcerns about 3. 4 which may not allow the possibility of reform and tanzania and zimbabwe. Without meaningful incentives to reform, these countries could lose even more Wildlife Habitat. The u. S. Government has few levers to pull and a permanent ban would remove one of them. We need for all hunters and conservationists to Work Together to protect the species and their habitat. With that, i thank you very much. Thank you, doctor. We now recognize the next speaker for five minutes. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Director ofty International Wildlife conservation for the Natural Resources defense council. Nonprofitnational organization with more than 3 million members and online advocates working to protect the worlds Natural Resources, Public Health and environment. The seasonal act requirements are critically needed and long overdue. When trophy hunting began wildlife was seemingly plentiful and we were unaware of the threats it would face in the future. From recentw reports that one million species of face extinction due to human action. One of the top drivers of this is direct exploitation which includes trophy hunting and the International Wildlife trade. In this context, trophy hunting species threatened with extinction is ludicrous. Crisis, theiversity administration created a committee to promote the antithesis of policy and strike at the heart of fish and Wildlife Services mission to conserve protect and enhance wildlife for the American People. The International Wildlife was formed in 20 to advise the secretary solely on the benefits of international hunting. The councils charter instructs recommend ways undermining the services congressional mandate to protect species under the and bays conversations on science. The prohunting mission also contributes to the Public Interest in wall of conservation. Americans care deeply about wildlife as shown for the public outcry when cecil the lion was killed and when President Trump removed elephant import restrictions. Found that 86 of ownersns, 70 of gun oppose game trophy hunting. The membership is also very unbalanced. While conservation groups nominated staff, the interior department rejected them in favor of 18 advocates for trophy trophy Hunting Firearms and exotic imports. Eight Council Members are connected to prohunting groups and others are connected to the nra. One member is also a registered nra lobbyist. Wants troublesome enough, the councils charter for example the president of conservation participated in a conservation on lifting the suspension of imports even though he routinely submits import applications. These are compounded by the lack of transparency. Several meetings have not provided the required 15 day notice. The iw cc has prevented members of the public from addressing the committee and failed to provide documents prior to the meetings. Subcommittees have met in secret. To top it all off, the iw cc is illegal which is why we have sued to end it. It was enacted to curb the reliance on secret Advisory Committees which special interests were using to drive federal decisionmaking outside of public scrutiny. It requires that federal Advisory Committees be in the Public Interest and a structured to avoid inappropriate influence by special interests. They must also make their meeting public and disclose all meeting documents as explained, the iwcc fridley violates these requirements. And recently released executive order the iwccs budget of 250,000 per year far outweighs its benefits which are precisely zero. This sham counsel has now existed for 18 months it has yet to produce a single recommendation. Request we want to that the iwcc be disbanded immediately. Thank you. The chernow recognizes the next speaker for five minutes. Thank you for these opportunities to talk to you on a subject which has significant applications for the conservation and africa many of which are now threatened with extinction. A century ago, there were more than 200,000 liens in the african wild. The number has fallen to around 20,000, a reduction of 90 in the short space of time. Clearly, something is not working. Stoppedunting has not declining populations. Visited a national cecil lived before he was killed. I was heartbroken to learn that it was that year the only six surviving rhinos at the park had been moved to a 24 hour guarded conservancy. There were none left their for visitors to see. I asked how this could be the case when hunting occurring in adjacent conservancies was supposed to be working for conservation of endangered species. The answer i got was what we have always known. The trophy hunting system is corrupt, the money ends up in the pockets of the powerful few, very little is channeled to conservation. The truth is the trophy hunting is a Rich Boys Club that is of little benefit to wildlife. And local rural communities. That13, a report revealed communities received only 3 of the Gross Revenue from trophy hunting. During my field work when i was talking to people in the rural tourist district, they reported three dollars per household in income per year. From the proceeds of hunting. Revenue cases, hunting drilling of a bullhorn but such cases are the exception certainly not the norm area even then, the benefits are tokens to put it mildly and the surrounding communities continue to live in abject poverty despite decades of state sanctioned hunting happening in the vicinity. I believe the cecil act will help to send a message clearly. These beautiful animals are worth more alive than dead. I think of all the bus loads of tourists who have enjoyed seeing cecil at the park to this day. Had his life not been cut short. He should have had the opportunity to thrive for many more years and his sire more offspring as nature intended. In the should be killed name of conservation at the very andt, it must be a clear convincing evidence that the revenues will go for tangible conservation outcomes. I regret very much the recent decision by the president of botswana to reverse the ban on hunting that was instituted by his predecessor. They use hunters baits to lower animals out of nonhunted protecting zones. They shoot animals at below the required age. Hunters go scotfree for many reasons. That i posed to you conservation entails the work of organizations working day or night to protect animals from poaching. Wildlifeions that fund research, training rangers, ensuring that animals have access to water when there are droughts. Communities investing in teaching young people to value wildlife. Wildlifeo ensure that is restored. That i submit to you. Is conservation. The importance of moving away from hunting goes beyond the economy benefits. Fostering about culture of respect and care for these majestic animals. When visiting africa, bring a camera not a gun. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. The next speaker is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Members and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify. Fellow with the property and Environment Research center. A Conservation ResearchInstitute Based in montana. In the decade since many african states won their independence, trophy hunting has shown to be an effective tool to increase revenue and economic incentives for while that conservation. This effectiveness is recognized and respected agencies including the u. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the uns food and culture organization, the world bank, and the International Union for conservation nature. As part of callista conservation programs, trophy hunting enables nations to practice conservation while enhancing the lives and livelihoods of rural people and helps to achieve the u. S. Foreignpolicy goal of african economies thrive prosper and control their own destinies. U. S. Restrictions on the importation of hunting trophies have had a can of consequences for the shared goals of the United States and its african partners. Bansining expanding such in lot risks having business consequences metastasized over a wider area especially if no economically viable alternatives to trophy hunting our present provided. For these reasons, congress should avoid taking any action that would undermine the ability of american african partners to utilize trophy hunting as part of their conservation program. Africa is one of the worlds Fastest Growing regions. By 2050, africa is projected to account for half of the worlds population growth. By 2100, it is predicted to be the birthplace of one out of every three people. Subsaharan africa is home to six of the world 10 fastestgrowing economies forecast gdp growth of 3. 4 this 2020and as much as 3. 7 in and 2021 area africas middle class is anticipated to grow from 245 million 380 million decade. The rise of the continent middleclass will be integrated with increased urbanization with a number of cities with populations exceeding live million expected to triple to 17 in the same 10 years. African economies should grow and prosper however increased demand for goods, services and infrastructure will undoubtedly accompanied this growth with a likely increase and stress on african ecosystems. The stress is already being witnessed with increased Infrastructure Development and National Parks and other Conservation Areas in kenya, guinea, and tanzania. Of importantion areas of habitat even in National Parks where Photo Tourism is the dominant wildlife use can a longer be taken for granted to the degree of once was. This reality should be front and center in the policymaking process and the policies of the United States should the to maximize the reduction of barriers to habitat conversation in africa. Especially through marketbased approaches capable of making conservation economically competitive with other uses. The trophy hunting programs of african nations have a demonstrated track record of making economically competitive land use preventing conversion to agriculture. These programs conserved nearly 350 million acres of habitat. A figure that exceeds the total area of the National Parks by 22 . The areas conserved are generally marginal and while ecologically important, lack the characteristics necessary for them to be economically viable. Trophy hunting programs create economic incentives for habitat conversation i Revenue Sharing Program with rural and indigenous communities encouragements of entrepreneurship rural job creation and increases in food security. Theyre also responsible for the Significant Growth in population of species such as the southern white rhino and the African Elephant in countries like south africa and zimbabwe. Negative consequences of bans on hunting and the importation of truck trophy hunting have met with severe negative consequences. This includes reported while the declines of 80 and the dissolution of antipoaching controls. The increased barriers and restrictions the cecil act will place on u. S. Participation and African Trophy Hunting markets that only be expected to allow these kinds of negative impacts in expand in scale and intensity. The cecil act as written will likely fail in accomplishing the shared goals of the united dates and its african partners. We recommend that congress develop and pursue an alternative alices course. Thank you. Thank you. We now recognize the next speaker for five minutes. Thank you for inviting zimbabwe to also give its perspective on this bill. Of zimbabwe is grateful for this opportunity that you have availed us to share hours perspective on the cecil act. We are deeply concerned about this bill as it has built on did misleading ideas from those who are doing conservation in theory and not in practice. Zimbabwe has the secondlargest population of African Elephant in the world and a Large Population of african lions. Importantting is an to conservation efforts [indiscernible] which is the body that is mandated for conservation of wildlife in zimbabwe is not funded by since 2001 and is therefore selfreliant significant losses or incurred in zimbabwe when the government imposed [indiscernible] million from 5 down to 2 million. The result it is actually increasing. [indiscernible] the effective implementation of our nationalan, Elephant Management plan, our lion Strategic Management plan. Resources, achievement of the conservation targets becomes a challenging issues. Is not craftedll in the spirit of protecting conservation efforts [indiscernible] it is introducing conservation principles. We should remove the economic value of the wildlife from the local people and government. At bill also is an impediment to the basic human rights agenda. Our world communities from the benefits of sustainable wildlife utilization and our program. Elephants and lions and other wildlife are important ecological cultural aspect economic assets for rural africa. Sustainable utilization of these resources contributes to significant habitat conversation conservation. The government of zimbabwe is desirous to build a wildlife community. The United States of america and the Hunting Community have never been a colonial power in zimbabwe. Such utterances are best left and there is no truth in them. However, the name of the bill itself leaves a lot to be desired. If it is really an inspiration from the whole story of cecil it lion, we are aware that is made by those who are not making any meaningful conservation contribution. It was just ane ordinary adult lion. It is not in our culture for zimbabwe anyway to give names to wildlife. It is the other way around. Believe and human beings have the name of animals not animals having the names of human beings area. Ofn under the Convention International trade and endangered species, the u. S. Has acknowledged that [indiscernible] the way the economic value can be attached to wildlife and a cultural Management System conditions can be created for our people should benefit from the wildlife resources through utilization of both consumptive and nonconsumptive tourism. This is not a onesizefitsall approach. There are limitations to what not consumptive tourism can offer. With some believing in a holistic approach and trophy hunting should remain in the tour book of options and at our disposal generating the muchneeded revenue. Reducing our i will ask you to please wrap up if you can. Seizing will not contribute to the conservation of echo system. The proposed bill is completely out of touch with the fundamental realities of sustainable conservation. We are going to have to leave it at that. You will have opportunity to elaborate in the question portion and your full written statement will be made part of the record. I now recognize myself for five minutes. The Ranking Members opening statement. It was very thoughtful but i found myself pushing back against one part of it. That was this notion that the answer to concerns about extinction in Wildlife Conservation is the simple notion of assigning a value. To the consumption or the killing of a particular species. At best, that is a doubleedged sword. I am a really think about the times when value existed in a big way for the consumption or killing of certain animals and thanks to not go so well. I think about the market hunters at the turn of the previous century who previously saw the value in killing migratory birds but that is what forced us to organize the modern Conservation Movement as Teddy Roosevelt and others realized that we were on a path to extinction. For many iconic species. We have learned that lesson over and over again that value plus read or corruption or lack of enforceable rules or institutions that we can count a road to disaster whether it is shark thinning or market hunters or migratory birds or some of the iconic endangered and threatened animals we are talking about. I want to talk about this idea of dollar value as a conservation tool and dr. , some of these animals the value seems a little low. It has been assigned to trophy hunters when you consider the conservation status, the sheer cost of maintaining some of these wildlife refuges with very little support from government. Let me invite you to speak about this. Are the fees the trophy hunters currently pay enough to justify killing the animals and can you justify if we are going to rely ofs tool evaluating valuing, what is a realistic value . That is an excellent question. I am i am amazed at what the trophy fees are. A lion is a fee for less than 12,000. In the United States we have hunting tickets for big horn sheep. Those prices are far highers. With lion they are as rare as rhino. The reason for the price being extraordinarily low is to some extent the legacy of the kind of, well, in some countries the are meant to be regulating the industry, but the local culture would say it is the industries regulating the countrys wildlife. Tly, there is and competition between countries. So if tanzania threatens to raise its hunting fees to 25,000 and 20 will say, no, botswana, their prices are lower. Part of it is covered dish and between countries, and the history of very close ties between the industry and regulators that are meant to get the money for the country but often it does not go to the country but to the regulator is an individual instead. The other problem, in particular cannedns, is the hunting industry in south africa. If youasy to form a lion have private property and you get horsemeat and left over beef that is not suitable for human consumption, you do not have to pay those costs. You do not have to pay for an antipoaching crew. You do not have to pay for community relationships. Theres literally factored firming up lions farming of lions. That price is known to the hunting public. An individual will decide where we going to go on her hunting so afari . Other types of value dr. Mkono talked about, the value that cecil the lion had for people to come and see him. That value was extinguished with the killing of that animal, correct . Tourist value is never calculated in that it all. To ask you about this Advisory Committee the administration has set up. Is there enough evidence to legally justify having an Advisory CommissionWhose Mission it is to promote trophy hunting . Having wildlife biologist on this committee improve the current dialogue . Dont think i there is enough pure review data being looked at by this council. The presence of a conservation biologist on the council would really improve the dialogue. It would allow objective decisionmaking regarding whether any off take of a species was sustainable. These scientists are trained to look at population data, characteristic such as reproduction and affects of Climate Change on a species and make a decision about whether offtake is sustainable based on those factors, which really contrast to the current Council Members who cannot make objective decisions because they have a direct financial interest didnt allowi enough time to do justice to the subject. I am out of time. Pepper, how long have you lived in zimbabwe . Zero years. Doctor, you have lived in zimbabwe your whole life, right . Thats correct. You have a phd in Environmental Science from a commonwealth university, is that correct . That is correct. I have got your cv here. 16 pages long filled with hundreds of Peer Reviewed articles in scientific presentations on conservation of these animals. Is that a semicomplete list, anyway . It is not a complete list. Im kind of curious as to how of feel, having this panel socalled experts, lecture you over what is in your countrys best interests . Thank you. It feels very disturbing because there is a very clear distinction between someone who is actually has actually lived in the area and been part of the system, versus someone who visits the area to do a study. The depth of understanding of the issues of what is working is certainly the difference. And i can only reflect that also to fact that when you see those countries who are very restrictive on sustainable utilization up in west, central and east africa, their population crahshed. But when you look at Southern Africa and zimbabwe in particular, the reason why our populations are doing so well is the principal and our philosophy of conservation. That cant possibly be right because we were told that your entire approaches on scientific, it is motivated by greed, corruption and bloodlust. I can say our system is like anywhere else are not perfect. But certainly this bill is not answering, is not answering, is not related to the challenges that we might facing. There is no signs that is informing this deal. Policy rhetoric that our decision should be informed by science. In ways the signs in the cecil act, zero. But we can demonstrate to you here. I brought with me the documents demonstrating what trophy hunting is considered into conservation in zimbabwe. And in addition to your scientific background and you must be one of the leading experts, im looking at the volume of work you have produced during your career so far. Youre also the executive Technical Advisor for the zimbabwe parks and Wildlife Management and have come here today to speak on behalf of the government and people of zimbabwe. Im wondering in the final two minutes i have, can you tell us, this bill is adopted into law, what is that due to zimbabwe, its economy, as well as its ability to to protect its Natural Resources . Thank you very much for that question. What this bill will do, it will certainly it will certainly give us us an in ability to implement our fantastic Management Plan for elephants that i have with me here which we submitted to the committee as evidence. It will jeopardize our efforts estimplement even our b Natural Resources management program. That i have brought with me here. It will also compromise implementing our Strategic Plan 0192023 that i have brought with me here as the evidence to the committee. Even our lion Strategic Management plan i have brought with me here, all these efforts because we are not funded by the national systems, we will be very much, we will have huge shortfalls in our conservation framework. And, also, even doing area surveys for the that people are very curious to know how many we have. Balloonin a population for lastg year. Yet, when we ask for resources we do not get the resources. When you want to utilize our resources, we do not fetch a price. What do we do . Where did we get the resources to do effective management. It will jeopardize all of the management confidenceshaking my in the fact that we know so much better how to manage your countrys affairs than you do. Let me just ask you one more question. If any of these species, african lions, African Elephants, were hunted to extension, with that be devastating to your country . Woud that be devastating to your country . That would be devastating no one has a greater incentive to preserve the habitats and these animals than the government of zimbabwe. Is that correct . That is correct. The chair now recognizes chairman grijalva for five minutes. Chairman grijalva how much of a role does u. S. Play in global trophy hunting, and like the law were discussing today, the cecil law, what is the United States responsibility to pass laws like the the cecil act . Yes . Dr. Mkono my understanding is that United States is in the top five countries where hunters come from. My understanding, also, is that along with countries like australia, france, and the like, actions taken by the united persuasive very significance for how the world engages with this debate. Know,s you might australia has already moved to ban importation of lion trophies, france and netherlands have done the same. So, countries that are Kindred Spirit to the United States have already stopped the importation of lion trophies because the data does demonstrate that our numbers have dropped. So, my view is that, the United States should follow suit, as to what has been done by other countries that have similar values. Chairman grijalva thank you. Can you explain, i think, the two differences between importing trophy, animal trophies on a nation by nation basis rather than a casebycase basis, as the administration has decided . What are some of the consequences to that . That, withas part of thereew method, the is enough transparency for the public to tell whether a species is being conserved or not . While i can appreciate some of the merits of a casebycase approach, i think it might be problematic in the sense that it might result in rather arbitrary decisions. As opposed to diseases that have consistency to decisions that have consistency to them. Where the United States citizens and the world at large, a clear sense of what the position of the United States is. So, my fear is that casebycase approach will tend to produce very arbitrary actions. Nk you, chairman grijalva, for the questions and no, thatwith dr. Mko since march 1, 2018, the fish and Wildlife Service has decided e trophy import decisions on a casebycase essentially, they are making these important conservation decisions behind closed doors, shielding the public from any opportunity to provide input, including that from independent scientists. And these decisions, as i said in my earlier testimony, are of great interest to the majority of the american public. 80 of them, including republicans and democrats, oppose the importation of lion and hunting trophies. And it is within the agencys statutory duties and also legal obligation under the esa as well as freedom of information act to provide realtime information on the application of permits, permit importations, and also enhancement findings to ensure that these decisions are based on science, are conference of, and are comprehensive and include the public input, including independent scientists. Chairman grijalva dr. Parker, whatever time i have left, the role, the rule that corruption plays. The role that corruption plays. We heard twice from two witnesses, the management of a trophy hunting species. Dr. Packer corruption has been found in the field where hunters are often out trying to obtain a trophy and it may no be the first animal they shoot, may not be the most people specimen. So, may be a better specimen is found later so a second animal is shot on the same license. Also, where the animal is shot may not be reported accurately. Those things happen in the field. And then there are currently supposed to be limits on the age the lion can be shot. If it is too young, it is too disruptive to the population. There is no way of knowing whether there is any kind of payments being made to allow underage animals to get through. The bigger issue has been block indication so friends of the friends of people in the government have been allowed to get access to hunting blocs at a low price. Part of why everything has been underfunded. There has not been an adequate assessment as to how much they are worth and obtaining that much money to cover the true cost of conserving them. To mr. Chair will go graves for what will probably be our final questioning. We will then recess. Adjournunlikely to because these are the less folks of the day. Maybe well just adjourn after mr. Graves. I would like to request unanimous consent. In light of the question from the witness from the republic of zimbabwe i ask unanimous consent to enter a report from Transparency International from 210018 which examined corruption in 180 countries. That report shows zimbabwe near the bottom in terms of the corruption index. Ill ask unanimous consent to enter that in the rector. In the record. Also ask unanimous consent to put letters banning certain wildlife imports. While of conservation goals and local organizations in the country of namibia, expressing concern on the ban on imports and exports and multiple letters and statements in opposition of legislation under consideration of conservation groups including the Foundation Association official wildlife agencies, safari club, international, Theodore RooseveltConservation Partnership and many others, a the rankingssed to member and myself from the International Union for conservation of nature expressing concern the bill is not faced on equitable consultation with a range of State Government peoples. And other support documents. Without objection. That was good fast talking. You should do those disclaimers at the end of pharmaceutical advertisements. And then just one more unanimous consent. Datedt by President Trump november 19, 20 scene, which characterizes trump hunting elephants and other animals as a horror show. All of that will be entered into the record. We now recognize mr. Graves for five minutes. To thank you want all for being here, particularly dr. Mkono. Know extensive travel and appreciate the sacrifice he made today. Just quick yes or no, if this bill were to become law, what is stop hunting in, in your country . It will not stop hunting in my country. Ok, thank you. A few questions. You note in your testimony that the population of africa is expected to surge. I think you said it nearly one population worlds growth is going to occur on the african continent over the next 30 years. These areas, regardless of your perspective of what actually happens in regard to the hunting or not hunting, this is conserving land. And without these these facilities being there, i expect with population growth, there is threat of development of these areas. Would you agree . I would agree and i think we are already starting to see that happen in National Parks in kenya, tanzania and ghana. Destroying habitat . Im sorry . Destroying habitat. But these nations that are subjected to the bill. Zimbabwe, tanzania. Zambia as well as the u. S. , they are signatories to the convention, correct . They are. Under the obligations of the convention, what obligation do Member States have to have dialogue with one another related to actions that a signatory country may take that would adversely affect the conservation objectives of others. Does that question make sense . It does. And i am not an attorney so i would be happy to get you not an attorney spokesperson. It does require is a multilateral agreement that parties do consult with one another. And i think we have to ask the question of what value is added bureaucracy and the United States above and beyond this process . Value, also,ovide what is the value of the United States second guessing african partners who are also party to this process . So, mr. Chair, we have established that one, the bill is not going to result in the elimination of hunting. And i would argue that if this bill were to become law if every other country were to enact a similar laws, then you are not going to have a, youre not going to stop hunting. Youre probably going to increase the legal hunting or poaching that would occur to some degree. Weve got to be very careful at looking at the revenue that is generated under this program, under the hunting programs. Will the gelatin yield . In just a minute. The revenue that is generated actually is invested back into the Campfire Program and other programs that actually benefit the species, that benefit the communities, and also, help to address the Population Health and the management of these species. Chairman, uni had great dialogue on you and i have had great dialogue. Youre calling that great . It has been fantastic, it has. I just think its important that we recognize, i am not a big game hunter but it is a management tool in this case that actually adds to conservation activities and i cannot wait to hear the gentlemans question suggested that you thought perhaps the objective of the bill was to ban hunting in this country. This bill doesnt try to ban hunting get all. Its not news that it would not end hunting. Sure, thank you. And, reclaiming time, i understand that you could make that suggestion, but i think that ultimately it would have a substantial impact on the industry, on the activities there which then does have a substantial impact on the objections of the campfire the objectives of the Campfire Program. Lets be clear, if this program is run properly, and i take note about, coming from louisiana, it is important to note that every country and state cant be quite as ethical and progressive as we are how many governors are imprisoned . Details, mr. Chairman, details. Because, actually our last governor is out of prison. Im offended. But it is important to note that this does provide resources for the conservation managers, for their Resource Managers to be able to invest back in the programs, back into the economy that does lift, i think, the lives of many citizens of the country. Just pontificate quickly on the Campfire Program and talk a little bit about what would happen if these activities were seized in your country were ceased in your country . The campfire from zimbabwe, the program would be negatively impacted and it would be really unfortunate because the American People contributed significant in the establishment of this flagship initiative. In myom the 5 million statement, a proximally 2 million goes directly to local communities. I have a document with me, bank statements, which will show you what exactly specific activity initiatives would be affected and who will risk losing Wildlife Habitat of which the greatest amount of Wildlife Habitats is in zimbabwe. And what benefit will it be there for local communities to conserve Wildlife Habitat when the economic value of such wildlife that is roaming free and wild is removed . Doctor, thank you for your time. We will have to leave it that. Mr. Chair, i was going to ask unanimous consent to include the documents you reference in the record. Without objection, we will do it. Always good to have mr. Graves give the final word. And, with that, this hearing is now wrapping up. The witnessesk for their testimony and thank the members for this questions. The members of the committee may have additional questions for some of you and well ask you to respond to those in writing under the Committee Rules rule 3. 0, members of the committee must submit written questions within three Business Days following the hearing and the hearing record will then be held open for 10 Business Days for your responses. If there is no further business, without objection, we stand adjourned. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [inaudible conversations] on this weeks newsmakers congressman derek kilmer the representative from Washington State is the chair of the new Democrat Coalition and the select committee on the modernization of congress. He talked about his priorities. You can watch newsmakers sunday at 10 a. M. And 6 p. M. Eastern on cspan. And looking at the week ahead in congress on monday, the u. S. Senate resumes work on the nomination of mark esper to be the next defense secretary. The confirmation vote is expected tuesday. The, tuesday, votes on house approved 9 11 Victim Compensation fund. In the house next week, members will consider a bill to secure Retirement Savings for workers and retirees. Also, legislation to address Border Security and accountability of the department of homeland security. Watch the house live here on cspan and you can see the senate live on cspan 2. Listenh on cspan. Org or to congressional debate on cspans free radio app. Roger that. Beautiful. This week marks the 50th anniversary of the apollo 11 moon landing and a new poll shows that nearly three quarters of americans watched footage either live or recorded of the moon landing. 10 minus 10 minutes and counting. Starting tonight at 8 p. M. Eastern, watch the 1969 cbs footage of the mission beginning with flight preparations. In the meantime we have been performing final checks in the tracking begins and the instrument that was used as the guidance system. Lift off. We have liftoff. 32 minutes past the hour. Liftoff on apollo 11. Thats one small step for man. One giant leap for mankind. Then on saturday at 8 p. M. , the landing and moonwalk. Columbia, this is used in reading you loud and clear. On sunday morning at 10 30 coverage of the apollo 11 returning to earth and greetings from president nixon. President nixon i think im the luckiest man in the world and i say this not only because i have of theor to be president United States but particular because i have the privilege of speaking for so many in welcoming you back to earth. Watch the 1969 News Coverage of the historic apollo 11 mission on cspan and cspan. Org or listen to the free cspan radio app. Former special Counsel Robert Mueller is on capitol hill next week testifying in backtoback hearings about possible obstruction and abuse of power by President Trump and russian interference in the 2016 election. Live all day covered on wednesday, july 24, starts at 8 30 a. M. Eastern. Watch live on cspan3, or on cspan. Org or listen with the free cspan radio app. Thend joining us for conversation this morning is cliff young, a u. S. Public affairs president. Lets talk about the headline. Overallan support nasa but not a return to the moon. Lets take the first part. When you look at the cspan poll, 78 of those surveyed have a favorable view toward nasa. Only 7 unfavorable. It is a conundrum. We did a poll the last couple of weeks, naturally representative of the conversation and we put out