Routine matter. Some of the patrons were allowed to exit and some were detained. It was common for the police to detain bar owners, managers, bartenders, people of color,eople who transgressed gender that lingo of the day, transvestites or street greens, and people who talked a bad or fought back. Some people were detained inside the bar. Others began exiting the bar, but on that night and by this time it was the Early Morning hours of june 28, patrons began gathering on the streets outside. And as the police tried to bring those they had detained into police wagons, the crowd began to erupt. And over the next three nights there ensued rioting in the streets, protests demonstrations. , at one point police were trapped inside the bar until arrived, thes Tactical Police the riot control called and try to reestablish order on the streets, but the rioting proceeded over several days. Over the course of the next week. Steve but why this location . Why the Stonewall Inn why this , set of circumstances . Marc it is a complicated question. The Stonewall Inn was mafia owned and managed. As were many gay bars in new york city and some other american cities. And there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar managers tod off the police in order limit, although never completely restrict, police raids on the bars. But the police would raid the bars even if there were these payoff systems in place. There are a lot of different accounts of why the police raided the bar that night. The payoff system might have broken down. There was a Mayoral Election that was going on. That was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice. The City Administration would would appear to be promoting law and order. There were allegations of violations of Liquor License laws, disorderly conduct, blackmailing, other allegations about the Stonewall Inn. Why june 1969 . But as a question historians have been debating for a long time. In global terms, 1968 was a major year that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction, state reaction, violent state repressions. In some respects we can see the civil rights of 1969 as an outgrowth of the Worldwide Development happening. Then there were also local and National Developments happening. I mentioned the Mayoral Election. Just days weeks before the , riots took place, mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary to be reelected. Lindsay was known to be a friend of the Gay Community. And he ended up winning the election in 1969, but he did so on a thirdparty ticket. And so in late june, nobody knew that he was going to end up winning. There were also around that time a number of Police Killings of gay people around the country. Oakland,es, berkeley, and in new york city, and i think that contributed to the rage and the anger and the fury that lgbt people felt that night and in the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. Steve our conversation with marc stein. He is a professor of history and he is the editor of this book, the stonewall riots, a documentary history. We will get to your calls and comments. We have a line set aside for the lgbtq community. That number is 202 7488002. But marc stein, if you could for just a moment, describe physically where you are situated. Marc directly behind me is the new Stonewall National monument, which was created during the obama administration. It is a small park, triangular park. And behind the park is the Stonewall Inn itself. It is a twostory building. Beige stucco. It was also part of the Stonewall Inn. This was Greenwich Village in new york city in lower manhattan. Steve what do the monuments represent . Marc well when obama referenced stonewall alongside seneca falls and selma in his inaugural address, it really signals a activism,n that lgbt the lgbt movement was part of broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the United States. That was a very powerful symbolic statement on the part , of obama as president of the United States as the first , africanamerican president. And then establishing this base this monument here is another , way of signaling the road that has been traveled over the last, not just 50 years but even longer to achieve lgbt a quality, a still unfinished process. It is quite complicated with the monuments because this is an action on part of the federal government, which for many , many decades was quite oppressive towards lgbt people. Still we have problems with federal policy, and so there is a kind of paradox, right, that the federal government has recognized this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently. The best example might be the ban on Transgender Military Service members. There is that paradox of recognition by the federal government but also ongoing struggles andservice members. Pe federal government. Steve you mentioned the speech by president obama, his second inaugural speech. From the west front of the u. S. Capitol. Here is what he said. [video clip] obama we the people declare today that the most evident of truths, that all of us are created equal, is the star that guides us still, just as it guided our forebears through seneca falls and selma and stonewall, just as it guided all of those men and women who left footprints along this great mall to hear a bright a preacher say that we cannot walk alone. To hear a king proclaim that our individual freedom is inextricably bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. [applause] steve that was then president barack obama in 2014. One more thing, the Stonewall Inn itself is a rather cozy bar. Its not very big, is it . In thet is not very big large scheme of things, but in 1969 it was known as one of the larger gay bars in new york city in Greenwich Village. It featured dancing. It featured gogo boys. So actually compared to some real holes in the wall, it was known to be relatively spacious. Steve and why were these locations so important at that time to the gay and Lesbian Community . Marc well in 1969, samesex sex was basically illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. There were also laws, federal, state, and local laws, that regulated lgbt speech, that regulated lgbt participation in many aspects of public life. Difficult to get government jobs at the local, state and federal levels in 1969. Bars though were a congregation place, were a place where lgbt people could come together, socialize together, enjoy time together. And in that sense some people argue that the bar was for the Lgbt Community what the church was for the africanamerican community, or what the factory was for the labor movement, the central space for gathering, becoming active, developing ideas about social justice and equality. Steve in order to get a sense of how the media covered the gay and Lesbian Community back in the 1960s, i want to share with you a portion of a now newsoversial cbs documentary, one in which dan rather has apologized for. 1967, theallace, title of the program was called the homosexuals. [video clip] most americans are repelled by the mere idea of homosexuality. A survey shows two out of three americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort, or fear. One out of 10 says hatred. A vast majority says homosexuality is an illness. Only 10 say it is a crime. And yet, im here is the paradox, the majority of americans favor legal punishment even for homosexual acts performed in private between consenting adults. The homosexual, bitterly aware of this rejection, response by going underground. They frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they can act out in the fashion that they want to, where they can escape the disapproving eye of the society they call straight. Steve that from cbs news. Marc stein i know you are , familiar with this program. As you hear that and see that your reaction . ,marc the media was changing in the second half of the 1960s, as was the lgbt movement. So i think that program was quite soundly criticized by the prestonewall lgbt movement. But there were other media organizations that were more accepting and more open to change. One example would be the New York Times magazine published in published a major story called civil rights and the homosexual in 1967. The wall street journal in published a major feature 1968 story on the gay rights movement. And more generally the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the 1960s. That was certainly true in new york city. Under the lindsay administration, there was a decline in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police. A decline in arrest for sexual solicitation. There was some success in Court Decisions that allowed gay bars a little bit more freedom to exist and prosper and thrive. Things were changing in the second half of the 1960s. When we turn to the civil rights themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting, and everchanging. So in that first week, the New York Times, New York Post, New York Daily News did all cover the stonewall riots. It was buried news. The Village Voice did major coverage. They had reporters on the scene and even trapped inside the bar during the riots. And those were much more significant stories, but it was really the alternative press and the lgbt press that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively. And those are the stories that historians rely on along with oral histories, police reports, and photographs for rounding out the picture of what happened that week. Steve and one of those, the documentary we are featuring on cspan3s American History tv. Our guest is marc stein. He is the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement. City of sisterly and brotherly love. As we talk about stonewall, the riots 50 years ago, a turning point for the lgbtq community. Tom is on the phone. Good morning. Caller good morning to both of you gentlemen and all of the viewers. This will be pretty brief. Just a little context. I am a navy veteran, gay navy veteran. Grew up in a very much catholic household. And you know, this issue is portrayed many different ways by many different folks and corners of society. What it really is, it is about love. It is not about sex per se i mean so much. It is about love. Good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love because you know, you are really fighting quite a force right there. And you know, coming from a religious background, the last thing i will mention is, you know, lgbtq issues are often by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as abortion and a culture of death. You know things of this nature. , there is so much in the bible that is just taken way out of context. You know, it is adhered to selectively. It is about love. Have a wonderful weekend. Steve if you could stay on the moment have you personally felt , discrimination as an openly gay american . Caller well i am glad you asked , that. Because i value other viewers time as well as you two gentlemen, i served 20 years in the navy, retired. And i, you know, i guess about 50 of it sorry, my voice is kind of croaky this morning. About 50 of it was under socalled dont ask, dont tell. The other 50 , my first 10 years in the military was under the republican preferred do ask. And you know, well ask, and do tell. That was particularly repressive and draconian. That could land you out on the street out of the military extremely easily. I think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for dont ask, dont tell. But in fact it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. And yes, you know, steve, the last half of my sentence here will be repression, growing up in a particularly religious household, you Better Believe it. Thanks for asking. Steve thank you. Marc stein, what are you hearing in his story . Marc it is interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. The prestonewall movement we generally call the Homophile Movement. Philo, was chosen as the key term because it referenced love rather than sex. I would say the Gay Liberation movement that developed after stonewall and this to some extent began even in the months before the riots i would say placed equal emphasis on love, intimacy and sex. Sex was very central for the early day liberalists. They wanted their sexual expression their sexual , identities to be recognized affirmed and validated. ,for at least a few years, sexual issues were quite central to the movement immediately after the stonewall riots. Inve poststonewall riots here is a look at some of the 1969, highlights for the gay, lesbian, and transgender communities. In the American Psychiatric 1973, association declaring homosexuality no longer a mental illness. In 1982, in the first two years of the reagan administration, the cdc using the term aids for the first time. In 1996, president clinton signing the defense of marriage act. In 2011, president obama revoking dont ask, dont tell. In 2015 the Supreme Court in a samesexg legalizing marriage. The pentagon one year later ends the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. But in 2019, President Trump rescinding that ban. Involving Transgender Service or lets get to tonya who is on the phone from new york city. Good morning. Caller good morning. Yeah, i am tonya walker. I am an activist in new york city and i am transgender. I am kind of high up in the Lgbt Community here. And i came out the military to new york in 1986. I met marsha p. Johnson down by the village in the piers. I know the Gay Community did not like the drag queens because they were trying to mirror the straight Community Back then. Marsha p. Johnson was a black trans woman that was at the stonewall riots. She was siding with the cops. I noticed most of the photos and videos that we have seen m i am i talking . Steve yes. You are on the air. Caller thanks. Steve did you have another question or comment . Caller yeah. I wonder why he doesnt mention the black drag queens that were out in front of the bar fighting that night like marsha p. Johnson. Sylvia romero steve thank you for the call. Marc stein. Marc the caller is absolutely right. As far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by africanamericans, puerto ricans, trans people, street queens drag queens. , it is uncertain whether they represented a majority of the people who participated in the riots, but there are many accounts that place them at the key moments, in the riots displaying real courage. ,a campy courage, we might say. Some individuals that are often credited with instigating the riots, Sylvia Rivera, marsha p. Johnson, stormy there are still outs cting a cap conflicting accounts about whether they were there. When they were there. Marcia johnson explains she was not there when the riots started, but she got there sometime later. If we take her at her word, she played an Important Role that night, and certainly other people of color did, trans people did but she may not have , been there when the riots started. Steve lets go to dave in new york city. Good morning. Caller good morning. Thank you for cspan. As 20 years old, came down grew up on long island. I was a College Student upstate. And i would hitch down and go to the bars. Julius was the other bar. All mafia run. And strange to me being sort of a macho kind of College Student, wearing square, weightlifter, young, but boy the stonewall was an amazing place. And i would go in early in the evening before we went down christopher street, way down towards the river, towards the new park, dannys which i havent heard mentioned. I went in at about 10 00 in the evening to the stonewall. June or so, just walk through. It seemed all right. Seemed normal early in the evening. Then i walked down to dannys. When i came back, maybe two hours later, it was and i have not heard this in a movie or the commentary i saw on cspan last night Wonderful Program people that were there, the Village Voice reporter. The queens,ould say they were the bravest. They were lighting garbage. I saw this. They were lighting garbage pails on fire from the outside and throwing them in through the big window at the, you know, the police were inside. At that who else, i dont know. Point, i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were parked right there in front of it. This was the first night. I think i was there for the second night. I was back on the island. It was hard to get back in. That is what i will never forget. That the police were sort of trapped inside at the point i got back there. They were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. That is all i want to say that , is really true. And you know, it got a little better after that, a bit, but would guess,ly, i to get where we are. Years and years, decades and decades. I am 70 now. Steve thanks for weighing in and sharing your own recollections from 50 years ago. Marc stein, your reaction . Marc yes, well my book reprints media reports and other counts 30 of the stonewall riots from 1969. It is quite interesting to see that the accounts provided by first the New York Times, daily news, New York Post refer to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals. But within a week, the voice, the lgbt press were referring to the leading roles of what the times were referred to as transvestites or drag queens. It is actually the most extensive coverage of that was in the local gay newsletter of a local gayrights organization. Interestingly, the trans periodicals of the day, two of which were the ericsson Educational Foundation letter didnt cover the riots. But another emphasized the prominent role played by street queens and drag queens in the riots three things are quite riots. Things are quite complicated. We also have the issue of translation 50 years later. Today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans. But in 1969, many people like marsha p. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera were comfortable as refer referring to themselves as both gay and transvestite. They did not see those as mutually exclusive. Steve to our viewers tuning in we are looking back 50 years ago , at the stonewall riots. A turning point for the gay and Lesbian Community. Our guest from Greenwich Village, new york is marc stein. He is the author of a new book that looks back at what happened 50 years ago. We have been talking about new York City Police officers. Police commissioner james oneill on twitter with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. [video clip] i think it would be irresponsible of me as we go through world pride month not to speak of the events at the Stonewall Inn in june of 1969. I am certainly not going to pretend to be an expert on what happened at stonewall. I do know what happened should not have happened. The actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. The actions and the laws were discriminatory and oppressive, and for that i apologize. [applause] to the lgbtq community, this would never happen in nypd 2019. Steve marc stein, reaction to that apology from the new York City Police commissioner . Marc in general terms, i think the apology is a good first step. But it is just that a first , step. I would like to see similar apologies by the Police Commissioners of the many cities where lgbtq people were killed in 1969. That would include los angeles,erkeley, california, oakland california. Those would be steps alongside the actions of the new York City Police commissioner. But in addition, are we seeing mayorship from city state governors, all the way to , the federal government . We still have only a few states where lgbt history is mandatory in the public schools. We still have policies at the local, state, and federal level especially with respect to trans people that could be addressed. Where is the funding for lgbt History Education, lgbt History Museums . There is an effort underway right now in new york city. There is a longstanding lgbt History Museum in San Francisco. We could see more of those projects funded by cities, states, and local governments. More research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment, including harassment by official government authorities. Those would be steps that would build on what is really just a symbolic apology at this point. Steve from new jersey, richard, good morning to you. Caller good morning. I wanted to discuss the beginning of my, um, coming out and going into new york. I used to go to the gay pride parades, but i only went at night, because i did not want to near tv cameras. And my very best friend, who was a schoolteacher, said that he could not go to the gay pride parades until the evening time, because he was afraid that he would definitely lose his job as a schoolteacher. He was a spanish and italian teacher in new jersey and absolutely loved his job as a Foreign Language teacher. And i do remember enjoying halloween on christopher street. And then i think a big change was during the gay mens health crisis. I was with a friend, tony, in a storefront when they first started the gay mens health crisis, and they were setting up the telephone line and things like that. And these men that were much older than me i probably was 21, 22 tony said, because everybody was putting their name down on a piece of paper, and tony leaned over to them and said you know, he is extremely young. He is petrified that his name will be on anything. So in that storefront with the gay mens health crisis, i did not put my name on that piece of paper, because the first thing i thought was the nazi brain and the gay concentration camps, and that i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. Steve thanks for your call. We should point out that christopher street is right behind you, marc stein, and that has become an iconic place for gays and lesbians, and it is also where the Stonewall Inn is situated. As you hear his story, what is your reaction . Think one of the things that is interesting is to look back at the early pride marches and protests and parade. The first one in 1970 to commemorate the First Anniversary of the stonewall riots. There had actually been annual demonstrations in philadelphia in front of Independence Hall on july 4. Those began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years, but the decision was made by Movement Activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and Independence Hall to stonewall and new york city, and that became the what we now know , today as the gay pride parade. And eventually that of course spread around the United States and around the world. But those early pride marches pride parades in 1971, 1973, it , was quite brave to participate, and it was uncertain whether there would be violence from people harassers who might come and confront the participants. It was unclear whether the police would grant permits, and in fact in los angeles, in 1970, was only shortly before what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the and they only did march. So under a judges order, so the first recognitions and commemorations of the stonewall rebellion required a lot of courage on the part of the organizers and the participants. But many of us believe that is really when the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they have today. There had been other lgbt protests and demonstrations before stonewall, but stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history, really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have now gone on for 49 years. Steve i want to put point in one perspective. Walter jenkins, who, at the time, was one of the closest aides to president lyndon johnson, worked with him for 25 years when he was in the senate, Vice President , and then president he was married, the father of six children, and this is a photograph of walter jenkins, who was forced out of the white house after he had a sexual liaison with another man at the ymca here in washington, d. C. He was charged with a crime on moral charges. I mention that, in 1964 to where we are today, pete buttigieg, the mayor of south bend, indiana, who is openly gay. Democratic the nomination. As you look at history, what does that tell you . Marc i think openly lgbt candidates began running for office in the United States before stonewall, were not generally successful, but there began to be successes in the early 1970s. The first were in ann arbor, michigan. City Council Members came out as gay and lesbian and then ran and won election. Then there was a state senator elected in massachusetts elaine , noble, and harvey milk winning election in the late for the 1970s board of supervisors in San Francisco. We began to see successes in running for congress, then shortly thereafter, a few governors by now. There still have been, has been a kind of limit to that kind of success in electoral and appointed office, so we have yet to have an openly lgbt cabinet member. We have yet to have an openly lgbt Vice President or president. Marc is the country do you , think the country would elect an openly gay man as president in 2020 . Marc it is an interesting question. Buttigieg is showing the country it is possible. But i would remind everyone we have yet to have a woman president of the United States, so there are many groups in the American Society that have yet to be represented at the highest levels of government, and i think it is certainly possible and maybe even likely that in our lifetimes, there will be an openly lgbt member of the Supreme Court, Vice President , or president. Steve and according to the advocate, there are 10 openly gay or Lesbian Senate members or in the house. We will show you that list. We will hear from dan in ontario, california. Good morning. Caller good morning. Sorry, it is ontario, canada. I was wondering, here in canada, it is basically it has basically become a nonissue, and i noticed in the United States, there is a lot of attention paid to even the terminology that is used, like lgbtq, and it is just unfamiliar here. And i am sort of wondering if i could just get your opinion on the difference between how it is dealt with and then the language that is used and how that has evolved as well. Steve thank you, dan. Inc well, i actually lived canada, in toronto for 15 years so i know something about what , you talked about with respect to canada. Speaking back to the stonewall moment, it was actually at that moment that a number of countries began to partially decriminalize same sex consensual sex acts. That was the case, but right before the stonewall riots, for canada, west germany, england and wales. But i know there is a controversy that has been going on in canada very recently about the formal federal government apology for the criminalization of lgbt people and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960s and early 1970s, but i understand that there has been action, even this month, removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. So it is important to remember it was not just sodomy that was criminalized in samesex sex. Lgbt were harassed and criminalized for disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, obscenity law. In canada, a body of house legislation and a variety of other criminal statutes. Steve you are doing a great job. I know the trucks behind you sometimes can drown out the noise, but we appreciate it. We should point out you are at the park that is now part of the National Park service on christopher street, directly across from the Stonewall Inn. And it is of course open to the public. Our guest is marc stein, earned his doctorate from the university of pennsylvania. Tom is on the phone from washington, new jersey. Good morning. Caller good morning everyone at cspan, and good morning to professor stein. A quick comment. Im an avid supporter of cspan. I would just like to say a little quick story. I knew about stonewall and how much of a Remarkable Movement it started, the catalyst for the lgbtq movement, and i was walking alone by myself one day in manhattan, and i had my mind on a million different things, and by accident i came across the stonewall memorial park. Very a very good feeling knowing that i was standing, inadvertently, in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social Justice Movement. And i was really taken back, so again just in brief, i want to thank cspan, everyone at cspan, and professor stein for sharing such a positive and transformative light on the subject and how remarkable this movement has been. And thank you all, again, for your time. I appreciate it. Steve tom, thank you for the call. Marc stein, let me take his point and move it one step further. As an educator, how do you teach stonewall . How should teachers educate this generation in exactly what happened and its significance 50 years later . Marc well, i think many of us have been trying to improve lgbt History Education in colleges, universities, and high schools for some years. It is really important, i think, for it to be integrated into our general narrative of American History. It is one thing for there to be courses on lgbt history and in colleges and universities, but it is another thing entirely when the lgbt history and the history of the stonewall riots gets incorporated into the general American History courses. So a number of us are working very hard on that right now. I think many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing by lgbt people, so there was a prestonewall movement. Many of us try to teach the much broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in American History, so stretching back centuries. And then of course it is important to follow the stories after the stonewall riots, how did the Gay Liberation movement develop in the 1970s, the Lesbian Feminist movement, the transgender Liberation Movement . How did people of color organize autonomous lgbt movements, growing particularly strong in the late 1970s . How did all of that change in the late 1980s with the a. I. D. S. Crisis, and then what were the changes in more recent decades with legalization but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local, state, and federal government and the possibilities that liberation might be limited, might be compromised, might be unfinished, in a variety of ways . I think that is what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt history. Steve and of course you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at stonewall. What has surprised you the most . Marc well, i think this 50 year commemoration, i think many of us anticipated that there would be an explosion of public interest, but i think even as i was working on my new book, i think maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest. So that is gratifying. It is an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically but also teach about broader lgbt history and broader history of social Justice Movements and to connect the past to the present, so i think that has been an important aspect. I guess it is also frustrating we do still see many of the myths that circulate about stonewall, claims that the stonewall the civil rights started the lgbt movement, when we know there was a previous movement. There are things on the internet that claimed to be from the stonewall riots that are not from the stonewall riots. We actually have quite limited photographic images and only one image published in the New York Daily News that captures the confrontation between the police and the rioters. The internet creates the problem. It of course creates many opportunities but also the problem of once a problematic representation is presented on go internet, and then it can viral and spread, and then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation. Steve our next caller is from ithaca, new york. Aster, welcome back to the conversation. Good morning. Good morning. Are you with us . Caller yes, yes i am. Can you hear me . Steve we can now. Go ahead with your question or comment. Caller yes, thank you, first of all, for everyone behind the scenes who put us all on every day. It is pastor Michael Vincent crea, and my ministry is ecumenical ecological, egalitarious, one world life systems. Stonewall needs not just to be an historical site, it needs to be an insight into our history, and mr. Stein i think would concur that not only the commemoration of this these events. And i did not come out until i left the seminary in 1983, and then i went into peace corps, and i won the most comprehensive case went i was fired, and one of the things they did was they fired me for being gay, in senegal. And also i wrote i have my masters of divinity, i passed my own human rights ministry, but my last paper at Catholic University was samegendered marriages. And what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with a capacity to uphold those selfevident truths. And so what we would like, i would think we need, with all the talk and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access i got fired by Trinity Church standing up for a south african transgendered woman to use the womens bathroom, that we need human rights courts. Steve i will stop you there. Thank you for sharing your story. Marc stein . Marc one of the things the caller emphasized was religion and the oppressive role played by religion and potentially liberating role played by religion. Before the stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbtq movement, along with, i would say the , American Civil Liberties union, perhaps the most important ally for the prestonewall movement. In San Francisco there was a very influential council on religion and the human the homosexual, which featured a number of ministers who allied with activists of that day and made important, groundbreaking efforts in california, and those efforts continued after stonewall. There is often a tendency now to think of religious community as hostile to or at odds with lgbt aspirations, but in fact religious communities are divided. And we have for several decades have religious denominations at the forefront in fighting for lgbt rights and others who are at the forefront of opposing lgbt liberation. And even within some of those denominations that have been hostile, there is divisions within, and so efforts within even the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church to promote lgbt acceptance and lgbt rights. So religious communities in the United States and elsewhere have been an important site of struggle along with the other sites we think about, schools, the media, popular culture, law, politics. Early after it moved into what does the rainbow flag, july, which is behind you, represent to you as a historian . Marc well, the rainbow flag emerged as one of the symbols and icons of the lgbt movement, and the many colors were meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community, so to emphasize that it is not an allwhite community, it is not an all middleclass community, it is not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds, also social groups, in American Society, in the global community. And there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasized the lgbt movement communitys activism. Steve tony in denver, good morning. Welcome to the program. Caller thank you. Mr. Stein, a brilliant presentation on stonewall. I only had a cursory understanding before the show today, and i find this highly informative. Two questions for you. One, how large is the Lgbt Q Community . How large is the demographic . I am sure the statistic is probably hard to get at, because, you know, closeted people, but i would like to know that. And second, as a historian, are you concerned i am concerned as a white male about injustice for anybody who is not white over the last couple of years, and im wondering, as a historian, if you have a view are we going backwards as a society, not just for lgbtq, but just in general in terms of social Justice Movement . Answers to those things, those two questions would be helpful. Thank you. Steve tony thanks for the call. , mr. Stein . Marc on the question, first quantitation is very difficult. We have lots of surveys stretching back to the kinsey studies in the 1940s and 1950s. If the question is asked narrowly we tend to get reports of 1 to 3 to 10 of the population, but if the question is asked broadly, we start to have much, much larger numbers. When you think of queer, that term has been invoked to represent a much broader array of people, and it represents everybody who has ever had a moment of samesex desire, everybody who has ever transgressed gender in every aspect of their life. We start to get much larger percentages. We might even say 100 of the population is potentially queer, although not of course, not everybody lives that life and claims that identity. So it really depends on how we ask the question, how do we define those letters of the alphabet. With respect to the current moment and whether were making progress, taking a step back, you know, i think in many respects, these things tend to happen in cycles. There were important reforms during the obama administration, and as we have seen in many areas of social justice, reaction during the trump administration. There are of course have been limits to that because we have three branches of the federal government. We have state and local governments, some of which are continuing to make important strides, so it is complicated. And sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes we have one step forward, two steps back. And again it really depends on the question we are asking. So in certain aspects of law, there has been progress. But in other aspects, there has been a retrenchment. And we go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict identities and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual fluidity, maybe we are not at such a great moment right now, because i only see more and more insistence that people claim strict identities and dont embrace possible transformations, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality, across their own life courses and that of cross then across history. Steve this headline from the New York Daily News, and it reads as follows. Homo nest raided. Queen bees are stinging mad. Marc stein, what do you think of that headline . Marc [laughs] well, it is characteristic of Mainstream Press coverage of the stonewall riots. Because my book covers some of the accounts from that summer, we get to see we get to compare , how mainstream newspapers and magazines covered the riots to alternative papers, like the Village Voice in new york, and the east village other, rats and , then west coast periodicals, like the berkeley barb and berkeley tribe and then we get , to see lgbt press covers, so you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers and magazines and newsletters of the day. But you know, this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers, to get famous. And it can be then complicated to use those as sources, but they are important sources, and they help us understand how it is that people learn about stonewall. Interestingly the National Magazines of the day, time and newsweek, did not cover stonewall until the fall, until october, so it took several months for at least the magazines of the United States to see stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. Steve and you spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the gay and Lesbian Community. Nancy unger is a professor from santa clara university, and from the cspan video library, looking back at the role they played for the lgbtq community. [video clip] prof. Unger gays and lesbians who came of age in the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s saying over and over again about how they risked their reputations, their marriages, their families, their livelihoods by going to the gay bars, because the gay bars saved their lives. They kept them from despairing that they were the only ones, kept them from believing that society was right, that they were sick and criminal and would be better off dead. In the bars and nightclubs, they found hookups and one night stands. They also found partners and lovers, and friends, and people who accepted them as they were. They did not have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. They could be themselves, and being true to yourself is very precious and is worth a lot of risk. Lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination. Even most gay men saw women as inferior. In the days before widespread feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressure to cater to men. A lesbian in the 1940s said we can throw off our girdles, our heels,and our high which that was the uniform virtually required of women. Lesbians could wear pants and be mensrom straight unwanted sexual attention. Steve that is from nancy unger, professor at santa clara, from the cspan video library. I want to ask you, marc stein, what happened next after the Stonewall Inn demonstration . Marc well initially, the existing gayrights organization in new york city, the madison society, tried to harness the energies unleashed by the riots, and there were followup protests and demonstrations in Greenwich Village, and actually in queens, new york, where a public park had been the site of harassment by vigilantes of lgbt people. But very quickly it became clear that the older, the Homophile Movement organizations were not going to be the main vehicles for the future. And so there emerged a new organizations, the first in new york city was called the Gay Liberation front. There was also the queens front. Ion a little while later lesbian forms representing lesbian politics, another representing people of color, and then the Gay Activists Alliance in new york, which was a little less radical than the initial Gay Liberation front. Gay liberation front and other organizations that i mentioned were very committed to alliances with the black panthers, with the antiwar movement, with womens liberation. They participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups, and they really were calling for radical restructuring of American Society, sexual restructuring social restructuring, and , political restructuring. The Gay Activists Alliance, in contrast, decided to focus more exclusively on gay rights, and that really then set the trend for what followed for the next several years. Very influential, very powerful, very active organization in new york city and similar organizations around the country. Steve let me ask you about two more recent moments, in the role of edie windsor and her role in challenging doma, the defense of marriage act. Why was her or dissipation, why was her case so significant . Marc well over time, the issues , and priorities of the lgbtq so thet changed, and more mainstream Movement Began prioritizing inclusion in the military, inclusion in marriage, inclusion in family life, inclusion and religion, and that was contested within the lgbt movement. Many people thought that the radical revolutionaries of the Gay Liberation movement were antiwar. They didnt want inclusion in the military. Were opposed to monogamy and conventional family life, so there is that tension. Nevertheless for many people the , goal for many people of the lgbt movement was brought broad acceptance in all aspects of american life, and edie windsor really was an aspect of that part of the lgbt movement. So her role, the role of others, were absolutely central in establishing or in achieving this major longstanding goal of the lgbt movement, which was for those people who want to marry, for those lgbt people who want to marry, that they have the legal right to do so. Steve and in 2016, during one of the gay pride marches, rangers, those from the National Park service, joining in the gay pride movement. So what does that tell you about where police and authorities were in 1969 and where we are today . Marc well, again, i think today there is conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military, elected officials, representatives of local, state, and federal governments. On the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion, and it is a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. On the other hand, those levels of government, local, state, and federal fully acknowledged the longstanding acts of harassment of use of violence committed in the name of local, state, and federal, are they fully addressing todays cuttingedge issues, right . And so there is that doubleedged aspect of the, of participation of local, state, and federal officials, including representatives of the National Park service. Are they doing everything that to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles . And a half minute, the cover of your book represents what in your mind . Why did you select it . It is a photograph from the week of the stonewall riots and it is a staged photograph. Ofreally only have one image the confrontation between protesters and the police and we dont even have the original. Most versions people see, it is photographrsion of a but the photographs were staged, mostly taken on the evening of june 28 so the second night of rioting. These were a group of participants that were gathered on the staircase on this very street and they represent the diversity of the participation so we see people who look to us to be africanamerican, puerto rican, trans people, the Youthful Energy of the participants, we see samesex affection and intimacy in the series of photographs. In some respects at least, it captures some of what was going on during the week of the writing. Author and history professor at San Francisco state university, mark steyn who is joining us from christopher street in greenwich villa, new york. Thank you for being with us. Cspans washington journal, live with news and policy issues that impact you. Coming up saturday morning, the university of virginias crystal ball managing editor will be on supremeabout the courts gerrymandering decision and what it means for 2020. Pue Charitable Trust will talk about National Parks and legislative efforts to improve maintenance. In our spotlight on magazine milligan on her article looking at the impact of the socalled brain drain on state economies as well as the Political Polarization in areas. Be sure to watch washington journal sunday morning at 9 00 eastern as we mark the 50th anniversary of the river fire, an event that shed light on Water Pollution and helped form the clean water act. Host this weekend on newsmakers, carrie severino, who is the chief counsel and policy director for the judicial crisis network. Thank fo