School of Public Policy at 8 00 p. M. On cspan2. Activists discuss the role men can play in the metoo movement. New event was organized by america, and vital voices partnership. It is about an hour and 20 minutes. Ms. Nelson good morning, everyone. Im elise nelson. Im president and ceo here. If i can just say here on behalf of everyone at vital voices, how absolutely proud we are to join with pro mundo and new america to host this discussion, men in the me too movement, moving from silence to solidarity and how do we do that . I think all of us in this room would agree that we are in the middle of something pretty darn historic. But just how historic i think remains to be seen. This could be the beginning of the end of a culture of silence, of fear, of complacency. This could be the beginning of the end of violence against women, one of the most destructive and universal challenges we face. I think its too early to see where this momentum right now with the me too movement is going to lead, but the one thing we do noknow is that were going we do know is that were going to make sure more womens voices are heard and more womens rights are protected, absolutely. You know, when vital voices was started 21 years ago, we didnt have the allies or the awareness that we have today. Today we have stronger laws and louder advocates. But violence against women still persists. In fact, many people would believe looking at the numbers that things are getting worse, not better. Why . Why in 2018 do we still face this major problem . Why . Because violence against women is tolerated. Its accepted. Its culturally condoned. So really were not going to be able to address the issue of violence against women until we change culture. Men are absolutely critical this that equation. What weve known at vital voices for a long time is that we are never going to get from where we are today to where we want to be in the future without men as our partners and allies. And im so thrilled to have so many of these great men with us here today. In fact, each year vital voices honors extraordinary men with the voices of solidarity award, and we actually have three of those extraordinary guys here who have really dedicated their lives, 20, 30 years to ending violence against women. We have Don Mcpherson with us today, one of our first honorees. Gary barker, of course from promundo, and jackson katz. We are so thrilled to have our honorees with us. These are men i really feel are helping us deal with the silent majority. The majority of men are nonviolent, but theyre also silent. So how do we move from that silent majority to voices of solidarity to truly create change . Launching us in this first discussion im going to turn it over to my great colleague cindy dyer. She has dedicated her life to eliminating islands against eliminating violence against women. Dyer thank you so much, elise. We are so excited, thank you all for coming out here on a cold friday morning and more joining us as we begin a discussion about what is driving some of this Sexual Assault and harassment that we see and how can men and women Work Together to move forward to change that pattern . I have got an amazing panel. Immediately to my first left is ms. Summers who is the National Organizers of the womens march the to her left, gary barker president and ceo of promundo. Jackson katz, professor and founder of nvp strategies. And jessica raven, executive director of collective action for safe spaces. Im going to start off the conversation and encourage all my other panelists to jump in with gary barker. Gary has been a longtime advocate in the engagement of mens engagement to end violence against women and he and his promundo has conducted Extensive Research against violence. So im going to start off with you, gary, and if you can tell us based on your experience and knowledge, what do we know about what drives Sexual Assault and harassment . Mr. Barker well, first i get to say that promundo believes in data and research so were kind of about making facts great making facts great again, particularly important in this moment, which is to say what is it that what do we know about it as we got lots of blogs going out, lots of conversation, what do we know that drives Sexual Harassment and Sexual Assault . And the simplest answer is the way that we raise our sons. This thing that we call manhood, sometimes we call it toxic which i think kind of takes us down a negative it kind of doesnt give much space for men to do other things. And thats not just a vague thing. We can measure it and we can look at whether were making changes to improve. So weve some of you know we did a study together with acts last year called the man bucks and we included questions there about Sexual Harassment. So what do we know what drives it and which men are carrying it out . We talked to random samples of young men in the u. S. , u. K. , and mexico. What is sobering to say is its not about toppling a few men in power. We found in the last month 20 to 1 3 of men ages 28 to 30 carried out some kind of harassment or bullying against women or samesex peers. Its not a random thing. Its important to say what elise did, that the majority are not. But its important to say thats in the last month how many young men are carrying out some kind of harm, most of it sexual and most of it gender based, with that frequency. Which young men . It wasnt education, ethnicity, it wasnt urban rural, or much difference across the three countries except the u. S. Young men did it more, so thats also a little bit sobering. Yes, more. You can see why mexico wants to build a wall, because our young men were the ones showing the most rigid norms about this. Which young men . The single largest factor was if you bought into a rigid toughguy version of manhood you were more likely to harass. Like grass,you who we did this quintiles, if youre in the farthest tough guy quintile, you are five times more likely to harass than the guys who are not in that box. So what this says is these norms are created every single day and its the silence around them. If were not talking to our sons we know that theyre happening out, whether its online porn, whether its male peers who say this is how you fit in, this is how you be the cool guy, we know what it takes to break that cycle. So i think were sobered by how big and how powerful that version of manhood is and yet weve got a lot of voices in this room who know what we can do to change it. What do we know about what breaks that cycle and changes those norms . Ms. Dyer the description that gary has given for the other panelists, is that consistent . I know that many of you have done research or have anecdotal information from your direct work. Is that consistent with your experiences of what is driving or empowering young men to behave in this way . Im just going to jump in and say first of all thank you for having me. Ms. Dyer thank you for being here. I wanted to just add a little caveat to that. I think that what drives men to harass is based on power and pain. And we all know that assault is a behavior that is a negative behavior that its unacceptable pretty much and it harms other people. And i think that a lot of times men are driven by power to dominate and to, you know, to put their thumb down on other people. Thats one way that, you know, one behavior that we can look at. And also i think a lot of it is driven from what comes out of pain is rejection. Ms. Dyer im going to ask my next question is actually for jessica down at the end. We are so excited to see more men taking a stand in this movement, whether it be from wearing buttons at the awards ceremonies or speaking out, were so happy to see more men. You can talk with us about in your experience what is it that you think not only we like to point or what are men getting wrong, but also what are men getting right and what do you want to see more of . Yeah, thank you for this question. I think that well, in terms of what were getting i think all of us what were doing better now is believing in supporting survivors, not just men, but people are starting to Pay Attention to the experiences of survivors. I think that what we often are getting wrong in this National Conversation on Sexual Violence is getting stuck in the gender binary. So this idea that basically i think that when we divide the genders between, you know, like its mens violence against women, what happens is we leave out experiences those who are most marginalized, trans women of color, homeless survivors, nonbinary people, in terms of what men are getting right, i think there are a lot of men, queer and trans men, so i think straight men can learn a lot from them. We cant talk about gender straight were talking about gender straight men and often white women. And that, even in using the term Sexual Harassment, ive started to move away from that term because it doesnt include often the experiences of transwomen of color that i work with in the community or muslim women who do experience Sexual Violence but its broader than that, its not about sex, its about power. And that manifests in different ways for different communities. So transwomen of color are often be misgendered, experiencing employment discrimination, being excluded from public spaces. Muslim women that ive worked with have been harassed about hijab. So by narrowing the conversation to Sexual Harassment, we also narrow our idea of what the solutions might be so we dont think about housing as a solution to Sexual Violence because were not thinking about homeless survivors. We dont think about employment as a solution to Sexual Violence because were not thinking about, you know, black transwomen who are excluded from many places of employment and then turning to sex work to survive and then experiencing high rates of police Sexual Violence. So i think thats what we i think can do a lot better at, centering the experiences of marginalized communities so that we can broaden our solutions and develop comprehensive solutions to Sexual Violence. Ms. Dyer i hear, gary, that was similar when you were discussing the research that you had done, you specifically noted that the harassment was occurring to women but also you said to the Lgbt Community so i can see the consistency and similarity in jessicas comments. Mr. Barker sure. And i think, you know, yonta was saying that as well, i think this is a challenging topic to bring up, which is that we know that another driver of mens use of violence is the violence theyve experienced or witnessed growing up. And in saying that, weve got to be very humble and thoughtful about not trying to say men are the victims here after all. I think thats where that conversation sometimes goes. But i do think to acknowledge the humanity thats often beaten out of boys of all sexual orientations growing up in far different ways needs to be acknowledged as part of this. Im glad you brought up the trauma issue. Thats a huge driver. The violence that we carry out as men is the violence that we have learned and often had happen on our bodies. If you ask boys and men about mens violence, all of us have an experience that we also feel i am afraid of that too. In saying that too we have to say its not the same as your experience of that violence, and i think thats a tough one for us to hang on to and be humble about. Ms. Dyer you know, as a perfect segue, neal, you and your colleagues that men can stop rape have been working directly with young men, the people that we are in fact talking about. And i am so what a valuable perspective that is. And im so curious to know is, you know, what do the young men, these individual men that you are working with, what do they feel about this movement . How are they reacting to this movement . Mr. Mcpherson yeah, i think its a great opportunity to build on whats been said. I think our young people and for those of you who may not be aware, men can stop rape through our men of Strength Club and through our women inspiring strength and Empowerment Program for our female peers, meet weekly with young people not only here in washington, d. C. , but 19 states and we do it through middle school through post secondary. For us, the conversations that are being had are very similar that older adults may be having. It makes sense to them intellectually. But for us what is even more important, it makes sense to them emotionally that they get we were talking last night at dinner that the younger people really grasp not only the intersections of all of this violence, but the impact its having on their own lives and their friends lives. So theyre really motivated during this time to speak out. You know, young people are very empowered to talk and share their positions. So for us at men can stop rape were very excited to see it because it does support the importance of primary prevention, it does support the messages that weve been trying to promote. It does promote a message of inclusion, and it is an invitation and its male positive. I mean, its celebrating the fact that boys do like and want to be boys and that is not anti someone else, anyone else, but allows them space to figure out how they can contribute in the work. So were very pleased with that because we feel that they are getting both kind of healthy body healthy mind approach to responding to this for a lifetime, not just for a season. I think one of the concerns is that because there are so much of a focus on women and, as you said, sort of this negative men are bad, men are doing these bad things that we dont want to have young men and boys say, well, no, this is this movement is not for me because its not about me. Im a good you know, we wont want to turn them off. Im wondering if any of you in your work are seeing men or young men and boys respond negatively to this focus on young women. Jackson. Mr. Katz clearly one of the things you have to deal with as an educator or trainer or somebody who engages men and young men and boys across the spectrum, racial and ethnic spectrum, is guys do come to these conversations often defensive and they think theyre going to be lectured and told what not to do. None of us who have been doing this work, i can speak for those of us that i know and certainly to my colleagues to my left and right, we never do that. Thats not how the good education works. You engage people where theyre at. You engage people young men, you , talk to them about how sort of cultural ideas how manhood have impacted them negatively as well as contributing to them harming other people. If you make those connections, Michael Kauffman wrote an article 31 years ago called the triad of mens violence. Its mens violence against women, mens violence against other men, mens violence against themselves. All three are connected. People dont make these connections normally, but have you rape on College Campuses where young men are raping their fellow students, women, men, and others. But you also have men over 50 committing suicide by gun. Gun violence is a huge problem in this country. Some people dont even realize that the majority of gun violence is suicide. And older white men are the primary category of men who commit suicide by gun. In other words, violence turned inward. The same system that produces young men who rape women on College Campuses is the same system that produces older men who take a gun to their head. When you talk to men about these kind of things and make these connections, a lot of men realize this isnt just aboutal about all truism although thats important, its also about selfinterest. Its about taking care of themselves and their buddies. When you broaden the conversation that way, a lot of men relax, its like im not being bashed in this moment, im actually being challenged in a way to look inward, to be introinspective and take that and that new selfawareness and do something about it. Thats the other piece. Its important that men have personal selfreflection and critical selfawareness and personal growth but it cant end there because with privilege comes responsibility. So we have to have growth personally and then take whatever have you learned about yourself and others and then go out and change the world, if you will, and change the spheres of influence that you have in your life. Whether its young boys in the peer cultures or powerful men in the highest pinnacles of power and authority. Jackson, i appreciate this. This movement there are is not your first rodeo. Youve been in this movement a long time and youve seen sort of phases and cycles, so youve seen this before. And i want to ask you, you know, based on the really the lengthy work that you have done, what is the way for us to what are some things that have really worked as a way to make sure that men feel like this is a movement that they can join rather than a movement that is being pushed on them . And you mentioned one of those ways, but im wondering what are the best how do we get them to feel more involved and more engaged . Mr. Katz thats a great question. I think that this has to be understood as a leadership issue and a social justice leadership imperative period, end of , sentence. For example, on College Campuses where i worked for years and decades, people still to this day organizers try to figure out how do we get men involved . It used to be when i was young we would have table tents and posters put up on the wall and wed be asking people to come to a meeting. Now the technology has shifted obviously and theres Text Messages and all kinds of social media. Were going to have a meeting we hope some young men who are interested are going to come to this event. Im done with that. I was done with that as a 20yearold. If this is an imperative, if College Campuses are interested in saying were going to end violence, it cant be an optional thing where we hope men will come. It has to be organically built at institutional practices at all levels, that starts from the top. I think we have to make clear this is a leadership imperative. What i mean by that, at every level of institutional power, because this isnt about individual behavior, this is about institutional priorities and followthrough and accountability. At every level, if youre a principal of a high school, think of all the men and women obviously and theres men and women who are the principals of high schools, but theres lot of people who are men who are the principals of high schools who havent done anything about these issues. They havent used their platform in any way. Meanwhile, we know from decades of research and garys research is cutting edge as well as other research that shows this. We know that something over 50 of rape victims are raped by the age of 15 can which means that High School Principals are presiding over kids who are already survivors of Sexual Violence, teen relationship abuse. We though this. Why arent those principals and superintendents initiating mandatory program, training for all the educators all the , coaches in those systems, why isnt eduation built into the educational on the curricular side not just object Student Affairs side if we know this and if we as a society are taking this seriously . So i would say the key thing is institutional leadership. In the military theres a concept thats called command climate is response ability of guess who the commander. Not the troops. Individual troops have responsibility for their behavior, but the commander has the responsibility for setting the tone, for making accountability, followthrough for survivors, and for creating a tone. And thats in the corporate world where its tone, the corporate ceos and the directors and managers, theyre ultimately responsible for what happens. Those people need to be challenged. If it becomes clear that its an institutional priority, then other men will follow. Because i think a lot of men have been waiting and eager for this conversation, a lot of young men. They dont know it necessarily and like i said earlier theyre often defensive. But if you get them through the door, you can begin the process. But you have to get them through the door. Mr. Irwin may i just just to support everything that jackson said, particularly we see it in schools, urban, rural, doesnt matter. It does start with how do we institutionalize this in terms of dosage . And i thing i said last night and i say all the time, we would never teach algebra once a week. And around these issues we wait until theyre either a senior about to leave for college or during orientation. And so just to support everything that jackson said, if we do not start training principals, School Boards around how to institutionalize this and to help them understand, and i know theres the research out there to support this, the academic performance will be better. So well still get to algebra and calculus and all that. We have to create an institutional norm that this is a priority from k12 and into postsecondary and then it will transfer into the workforce as a cultural expectation. And as jackson also said, we can look to the military for things they still need to improve, but there is a structure there about leadership taking responsibility for the tone that is set. And wherever we have seen the most success, the most impact, male, female, however identified, when young people are being prioritized and the environment theyre in is being prioritized as one that is equitable and safe and i exclusive, we see the production of it go through the roof. Jessica. I wanted to build on that, jackson and you are right there it it starts with leadership and it has to start young. I am a mother of a fouryearold boy who likes to wear dresses. We were on a plane of the other day looking through a magazine and we saw a picture of what appeared to be a man wearing a skirt. And he said, boys dont wear dresses. I said max, that is strange. You were wearing address the other day. You like to wear dresses . Im a boy. , yeah, somehow even though he has been wearing dresses all his life, he has been learning this is not ok or appropriate. It does have to start with leadership. I also think we do have power to change those storms. I am a believer in Bystander Intervention. Calling out everyday sexism and isms in our everyday life. Institutionalizing it at a young age. To talkt really helpful with the men and boys as perpetrators of violence. It is not helpful to say, stop raping, stop harassing women. It is helpful to tell them what they can do. Intervening is something they can do, to stop the violence of other people and harassment of people. And going through Bystander Intervention training not only helps men or people who are likely to cause harm to intervene, to stop harms from buildsaused, but also empathy and makes them less likely to engage in the behaviors themselves. Once it becomes a leadership problem, it is already a learned behavior. I think to stop this issue and be more progressive on these harassment issues, we really need to start at the adolescent age. Like 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, we need to be teaching our children what correct socially accepted behavior is. It all goes down to, be kind to one another, keep your hands to yourself. Your body is your temple. You dont own anyone elses body and you dont have the right to put your hands on anyone else. So i think that, you know, its great to say that leadership needs to take control and be more progressive and speak up, but i also think that in our homes, our parents need to be responsible for the way they raise their children. Because i dont think that you go to school and you learn how to beat up kids. I think you have already learned that behavior and it comes from your society. It is something you learn as early as 4, 5, 6, 7. Can i comment on that . The parent training issue . I think absolutely agree and i think both jessica and yonta are saying this with the. We need to do this in school and it can be alger they can be voluntary. We also dont make algebra voluntary. So we say this is stuff you need in the world to be a citizen, we expect this of you. Were not negotiating about gender equality anymore. We have said, we believe in it you must come into this world , living it. Another piece where we need to think about institutionalizing this is parent training. Were making interesting progress with watching corporations taking a leave it where our government does not. Nudge you toward, we make obligatory, certain types of parent training and we support you in that role. Because i think thats a crucial moment of Early Childhood whether are you watching gender equality modeled in the home . Or are you watching violence modeled in the home, is such a huge driver. So i think its school, i think its parenting, all the big institutions. I think it has got to be part of the workplace. We dont ask you to do your timesheet. We have to say this is nonnegotiable were not asking , for volunteers. I love your notion, we are not trying to recruit young man, they are a captive audience we are making do this in a nice boypositive way. , just building on something that jessica had said, im one the architects of the bystander approach and i have been frustrated the last number of years in the United States, how many people have taken the social justice and feminist foundations of the bystander approached and moved it away towards what i would refer to as a glorified nightclub bouncer model, where if you see something, Say Something. In other words, not diving deep into the gender norms that underlie the abusive behaviors but talking about how do you intervene at the point of attack. And garys work and a lot of other researchers and activists globally, we have a consensus among the men doing this work that the most powerful Effective Work in engaging young men and boys in gender violence prevention, thats Sexual Harassment, assault, domestic and relationship abuse, is what is called the gender transformative work, giving boys and men that opportunity to think critically about the ideologies of manhood underlies , most of the abusive behavior that boys and men engage in towards men and women and towards themselves. If you dont do the gender transformative work, just teach skills for intervention, after that deeper dive its just , superficial. It is a waste of resources. We have enormous resources in the United States and we have progressive programs in countries in the global south that are doing more progressive work in this matter than we are in the United States, its pathetic. I also say i cant let this moment go. At the white house right now in the popular conversation right now is the discussion about Domestic Violence and whats the difference between a guy whos a really good employee and hes a good worker but hes got a side to himself that is, you know, a dark side in his personal life. Women in the battered Womens Movement and then men in the battered Womens Movement have known about this for 50 years at least, that it does not matter. A guy could be a great performer at work, he could be a great professional and be abusive. Its like, by the way, where are the voices of women and men in the Domestic Violence movement on cnn today . Its like you have the same talking heads talking about Domestic Violence because they read an article in Huffington Post or something and now theyre the experts on Domestic Violence. Why dont they bring in men and women who work with abusive men who have incredible insight into abusive behavior . Why isnt that part of the cultural conversation at this moment . It would be a way to elevate the work of Domestic Violence folks who have been at it and working at high stress jobs for decades without very much cultural recognition. Now its right in the white house and they should be on tv, they should be interviewed. The insight that they have is incredible. Theres a disconnect that many of us have going to our professional conferences where youre surround by people who are really smart, women, men, others, smart about Sexual Assault, harassment, abuse. Then you turn on the tv and have you talking heads who barely know anything about the issue and theyre considered experts . Give me a break. One of the things we need to do about this moment is taking advantage of the cultural spotlight and pushing media to cover these issues more deeply and bring them to people who actually know what theyre talking about. Well, you know, as the National Organizer of the womens march certainly knows a thing or two about inspiring and organization. Tell us how do we inspire and , organize around this topic . And make it be really lasting and meaningful . How we organize around usually organize around things when there is a crisis. We wereomens march able to organize around what many felt was a crisis in our country. And right now we are experiencing a crisis of leadership and i think that through popular conversation, popular television, popular music, popular movies is how we get the message out there. But i am one that always feels that organizing anything you do has to start at the local level first. It has to be a conversation that starts at home, in the community, regional, and it has to be national and international. I think that when you have people who are experiencing these horrible atrocities to their person, you dont want to exploit them, you want to give them a platform, but you also want people to feel like they can relate to what this person is going through. So to organize around this topic we need music that says violence to women is bad. We need people to stop using words that are negative like the bword and calling women words that are unfavorable. And i dont like to repeat those things, but we all know what im talking about. And i think that we also need to make sure that leadership, like you said, which is very vital to this conversation, that leadership is projecting a body positive kind of, projecting a bodypositive conversation, and that we all understand that violence of any kind is unacceptable. Until we get somebody like a very popular person, lets say Princess Diana for example. If Princess Diana had experienced some kind of Sexual Violence, the whole world would be outraged. We usually organize around crisis. But we have to be smarter and deeper than that and we have to be able to organize it in our communities first. Jessica, im communities first. Jessica, im going to give you one last comment and then if we have we may have a couple of minutes to take a few questions from the audience. I just want to echo what said. what ianta it is not just the talking heads on tv that we need to uplift, the change happens on the Grassroots Level and we need to uplift the experience of survivors. Survivors of the experiences and we can learn a lot when we listen to them and listen to them as to what we need to build safety. One of our main focuses is developing more survivor advocates and giving them leadership opportunities and recognizing their true expertise. Thats music to my ears. Are there questions that we have from the audience during the last few minutes of this panel . Yes. Hi, im avery and im a senior at the George Washington university. Also, i love vital voices. My question is how do we ensure i guess for jackson katz, how do we ensure the actual quality and content of this educational material is good . Because im gone through all these things and ive gone through trainings and they havent been comprehensive or effective. Ive spoken to men after who didnt feel like they learned a lot from it. How do we ensure the content is quality . That is a great question. It is a work in progress. Are meeting in d. C. This week talking about how we can use our decades of experience that what we know works with men and young men and try to figure out how to translate that into broader policy around the country. Variable education going on, a lot of noneducation. Most high schools have zero on these matters. And the ones that do are mostly inadequate, to be quite blunt about it. So we have a long way to good. Part of the way to ensure quality is to get the right people in the room making policy decisions, as well as following through. How do you evaluate the effectiveness of a Prevention Program . Thats a big question. How do you evaluate what you are preventing if you are preventing it . Some of this is longterm social change and gender norms change. How do you measure that . When i was in high school, i had never met and openly gave person. I met many gay people, but never an openly gay person. That old. But not i am saying, a change happens. There is an organized movement, an lgbt movement, which has been transformative. If you look at the demographics, the younger population of the United States, for example, is heavily supportive of a full spectrum of lgbt rights in a way thats distinct from the older demographic population, if you will. Thats because the change has happened. The change does not happen passably, it happened actively, through movements engagement. , i think if we do that then overtime we will see the change and youll be able to measure it. But its all political. By the way, everything that gets measured, because people want to get funded and you have to prove your efficacy through funding sources, and thats all political. Thats all political. Because how you define your success matters in terms of whether youre going to get funded. And its difficult to measure social change if youre actually having an effect. You operate 19 states, you are doing this very thing. I would say too, this is where garys research is so important and michael and donna when they come up and obviously jackson. When you say comprehensive, if we could make a half day, a threeday, an hourlong workshop comprehensive enough to make it so the behaviors and the emotions connected to what this work requires of us for a lifetime, we probably would focus on world peace. When you talk about comprehensive youre literally , talking about in moments men can stop rape right now, partner crisis centerrape to reposition the Coalition Work here in the city. So were talking about peoples lives who are in crisis when we maybe first meet them. Then by the time they start their healing theyre going to need a job, theyre going to need training. So comprehensive is a really important word. So the vetting of the content of curriculum, depending on what we are trying to accomplish, goes back to what i said earlier about mandating how we teach this. By the time you get to George Washington and one of our club. Embers is also an alum by the time you step to that campus, you should be entering your 13th year of training in this issue. Thats what comprehensive looks like. Its a really challenge for us to figure out how to be as strategic as we can with the resources that are available to really promote what comprehensive intervention training requires of us. The one thing we know for sure is that it is a lot easier to raise a nonviolent boy than to change a violent man. Fact. Excited to be able to turn this panel over to the next panel. First, let me thank our amazing panelists. [applause] thank you so much. Our next panel is going to take a closer look at how to work with young men and women on these issues, focusing on the campuses, the 13th year of training. Py to introduce the net swenson,rator, haley thank you so much for being here. And thank you to our panelists. [applause] thank you for your patience, it will be just a minute. [indiscernible] we are fortunate to sit here with amazing activists and scholars today. We are focusing on the way in which Sexual Assault for years has been considered a campus issue. That when we hear about violence against women, its often with the shocking statistic of one in four to one in five women on a College Campus will be raped before she graduates. And i think that the me too moment has shown us that that doesnt end at graduation, right . That Sexual Violence and Sexual Harassment continue to follow people into their careers after college. So the purpose of this panel is to think more holistically about this question of violence and to just as the last panel finished off, think about what kind of groundwork were laying in college that can be sort of transferred from beyond. So, im going to start by introducing michael kimmel, whos one of the foremost experts on men and masculinity at stony brook and author of many books about men and masculinity. Michael had studied this issue in many different parts of the life span. But i am interested to ask michael about what it is when men enter their careers, they need to have already learned to be people who promote gender equity in the workforce. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I am thrilled to participate. Basically just want to say to the last panel, what they said. [laughter] i have a couple things i want to amplify from what i heard. Thing i heard, this is not necessarily normative. Getting inside the idea of masculinity is important. What i hear in the workplace and College Campuses from a lot of men are right now in the me too moment is, we dont know what to say. We dont want to be were walking on egg shells. We dont want to be jerks. You know, thats good news. Most men dont want to be jerks. Most men dont do this. Our role in some respects is to provide support for those who dont do it so they can intervene and challenge those who do. Most men dont want to be jerks. But they dont know how to not be jerks because of what they have learned from other men. So, i want to say two things about this. First, i want to echo something that was said earlier that we dont teach algebra once a week. I am a universitybased. I also do a lot of work outside universities, and in universities, were constantly bemoaning the fact that the American PublicSchool System has illprepared students for collegelevel work. So, we have remedial math programs, remedial writing programs. You know, the things that we assumed once upon a time they would have gotten in high school, but you know, they dont. So were so sorry about that, were going to do something about it. So everybody has to take a writing course. Everybody has to take these entry level courses that should have been done in high school. So, why dont we transfer that to Sex Education . Because most American Students in public high schools across this country get virtually no Sex Education, and if they do, its abstinencebased, which means its even worse than no Sex Education. [laughter] michael and it seems to me that instead of sitting on a College Campus going, oh my, we should everyone is required to have comprehensive Sex Education in their college years, not just orientation, not just for an hour during orientation. When youre brandnew on a new campus and all you want to do is make friends, get drunk and get laid. But all through your years in college, i think mandatory comprehensive Sex Education in college should be one thing that we can do. The second thing i want to say about universities, and i want to echo something that jackson said earlier, is these are institutional arrangements, and these kinds of impulses come from the top down. You know, we talk about the military that way or politics that way. Its certainly true in corporations. When ceos and c suite executives say this is important to me, i want this workplace to be so safe that everyone can completely show up and be really productive, because we know that more gender equal workplaces are more productive and more profitable. So, im thinking about this sort of institutionally. Heres something that happens on College Campuses. You may not even know this, but this is an institutional thing. So, i keep thinking, like, this isnt on young people. This is on us. Do you know that according to national pan helenic rules, nationally recognized greek letter sororities are prohibited from serving alcohol at parties. But according to the interfraternity council, nationally recognized greek letter fraternities are permitted to serve alcohol at parties. Subject to local alcohol regulations, of course. Who has the parties . This is a structural thing. You know, i keep thinking, you its an experiment. I am an empiricist. I have this experiment idea. I want one campus to come forward and say for the next two years, only sororities can serve alcohol at parties. The fraternities are prohibited. Do you think Sexual Assault would go down . I dont know. Its an open question. I am an empiricist, lets find out. Because what might happen is that instead of the guys standing at the door saying, you know, is she hot enough . Does she dance the way we want . Does she drink the way we want . Does she have sex the way we want . Are you a babe enough to come in . No, we would have some women at the door saying, are you a gentleman enough to come in . I know some guys would steep sneak in its ok. , but even if she does get so drunk she can barely stand up, she goes upstairs to her bedroom. I just think again, im an empiricist, a social scientist. I think its worth a try. This is an institutional arrangement. This is on us. We let this happen. And then we blame students for it. Thank you for that. Well, what a way to start out. I have nothing to say. Haley i hope you have something to say because my next question is for annie clark, executive director of end rape on campus and has also coauthored a book, we believe you, which features stories from the survivors. Theking of elevating stories of survivors, i was wondering if you could talk about the sudden surge of stories about workplace abuse has affected what you do on campuses, and the sense of the movement on campus . Annie thank you so much for having me and for hosting this lovely panel discussion. I think the first thing to recognize is that this isnt sudden. We have been talking about this for centuries, quite literally centuries. And i also want to say that there are people in this room and on this stage with me who have been doing this work since before i was even born. And so its really because of you that were able to have this conversation, but we also have all of these young folks who are growing up in this time, and i think its really important to have this cold Learning SpaceLearning Space. This is not new, maybe it has just fallen on deaf ears. Of totant a lot understand these conversations have been siloed. Its been workplace, College Campus, k12. But theyre all interconnected, and we cant talk about Sexual Violence on College Campuses without talking about the military, without talking about the catholic church. We also cant talk about Sexual Violence without talking about homophobia and transphobia. So that is another thing i want to touch on later. But to echo what you were saying on the Previous Panel and to answer your question, yes, we absolutely have to start earlier. If the first time were talking about Sexual Assault is at college orientation, it is way too late. And to sort of tie those strings together, my sister is a kindergarten teacher. She hears on the playground, he hits you because he likes you. Hes chasing you because he thinks youre cute. Its just a schoolyard crush. Right . Fast forward that a little bit to middle school. I want a researcher to tell me how many hours of a Girls Education are lost every single year because theyre taken out of their chemistry class, their algebra class, their english class, because their skirts are too short. Their collarbones are showing. And then were giving a message to our young men that theyre suddenly not responsible enough to control their behavior. What message does that send their kids . Or our kids. And then we know Sexual Assault happens much earlier than college. So, whether this is elementary school, high school, college, an elder home somebody reports , abuse. The questions they get, why did you go home with them . What were you wearing . Flashback to that High School Classroom where you were removed from your educational setting because you were told that your collarbones were too distracting. And so all of this is very interconnected. I wanted to tie that together from the first panel to say if were starting at the college level, not to excuse the responsibility of colleges to teach our students, but its too late. And so i wanted to say that. What else . Has the enthusiasm of this moment, even starting off with of the metoo, which millions of people shared and stepped forward and told their stories, who many of whom had never been a part of any kind of activism on this issue at all, has its has it invigorated the Campus Movement . Annie i think its really important to recognize that there are many different ways to be a survivor, and that there is not one right way. And while the me too movement and i say that in quotes because it was a started in the 1990s and even before that, no one should have to publicly stand on a stage and tell their story in order to be believed and supported. And if somebody wants to share their story, absolutely. If they dont want to, their story is no less valid. So i think, yes, while, if you give people a safe space to share their story, many people will. But we cant judge people for not, because they might not feel safe doing so. I also think its really important to recognize whose stories are being elevated. The media, to be quite honest, likes stories of people who look like me, and we need to start changing the narrative. Especially when we know that native women, women of color, black women, lgbt communities experience much higher rates of violence and are often erased from the conversation. And so, while this effort is getting so much traction, and im grateful for that, i think its really important that we take a critical look at the media and how different folks narratives are being told, which is one of the reasons we wrote we believe you, my coauthor and i, to make sure that folks could tell their stories in their own words. Haley thank you so much. I want to bring in our third panelist into the conversation. Don mcpherson is an allamerican quarterback at syracuse. Was. Haley was, a runnerup for the heisman trophy. More importantly for our purposes, a decadeslong activist on this issue who has spent a long time talking about to College Students specifically about these questions. I am really curious about the colleges have been a place of course, they get most of their attention for being breeding grounds for toxic masculinity, but other ways in which colleges have actually been a place for transformation. Don i think that the last thing you said is significant. Colleges are a place for transformation. Not around this issue, but everything that goes back to the algebra analogy. Colleges are a place of transformation when you talk about any kind of academic discipline or any kind of excellence in pursuit of any endeavor. Except this. And thats where the shift has to change on College Campuses. I think theres something thats really important, and i can go back to what michael said and the Previous Panel. We had dinner last night and listened to these men talk. I was 29yearsold, and i tell this story often, when i met jackson katz. At 29yearsold, i knew what it meant to be black. And to be an american playing in the canadian football league, i knew what it meant to be a new yorker just because im a new yorker. I was 29yearsold. I knew what it meant to be the youngest of five children. I knew all these things that shaped my identity, except i never considered masculinity. I was considered an alpha male as a professional football player. I was considered this iconic understanding of masculinity and i had no idea what that meant. And so in order to have that conversation, like you mentioned, how do we have these transformative conversations, we do have to get to the point where were talking to men in a different way than we and this is the other side of this. We on the outside of the movement typically talk about this. And theres the one thing that we do in activism, which is pushing the issue, pushing the facts, pushing the statistics, being more inclusive, and then theres really the education that needs to happen. And i always say that we dont raise boys to be men, we raise boys not to be women. So i was raised in that ideology. I was raised not to be a woman in terms of what my masculinity meant. Which is why when i met jackson, all of a sudden i had to switch to being very proactive in how i understood masculinity. I had to reconstruct so many different lessons i have learned , rehabilitate so many Different Things i had learned about what it meant to be a man. That is what it took being , immersed with jackson. I mean, if you listen to jackson, you hear that, i used to sit, and sit together, as we did last night, and listen to men really grapple with how the culture what the culture expects of us as men and how we internalize that and how we make that work for us in our lives. If we are going to do the work in higher education, we should approach this issue not necessarily in the way we approach it as activists, but the way we approach it as educators. In education, we dont do prevention work in higher ed. We do excellence work. We do competency work. And so you know, very often, people look at sports and want to elevate sports, lets use sports as a platform. The problem with that is we miss what the reality of what the sports analogy or the sports example can do. Sports, what we do is we prepare to make good decisions. Its not what you see on game day or see in the olympics. Youll see athletes compete in the olympics this week who have been preparing four years for 90 seconds. So when we talk about this is why, when jackson mentioned the by standing behavior, that takes the generate analysis and wants to create a bouncer program, is not looking at the everyday conversations that are happening over and over. That lead to what happens in 90 seconds. And so thats where the Education Needs to happen. A lot of men who come to this conversation have no understanding of our masculinity. This is one of the reasons why gender equality falls on deaf ears with men, because we dont realize we have gender. Of course. And so women are saying, we want equity, and men are saying, equity with what . Because we dont have that thing that you want. Because were devoid of any kind of gender ideology because weve never been raised to be full, whole people. Haley to the men that are listening, it does not fall on , what is one concrete thing you would advise men who are serious about thinking of themselves as having a gender and being invested in gender equity . What should they do . Who wants to start . Go for it. Michael ill say two things. In the general context, i want to echo something that annie said. It is a moment where for the first time, when women are speaking, theyre being believed. I think this took a long time. I think the person who started this was anita hill. After what happened to her women , went quiet. But theyve been talking to each other all this time, and they know how to believe each other. They know how to talk about this. This is a moment where women are being believed. Even Mitch Mcconnell said he believed the women that were accusing roy moore. Women are being believed. This is a moment of opportunity for us. It is not inevitable that this will continue to become the watershed moment that it has the potential to be. I think part of the answer to whether that happens or not is how we engage with men. I want to say one other thing. I want to tell you that im very im both an activist and an academic, right . So im very optimistic. As an activist, im optimistic because i believe change is possible. As an academic, as a professor, i believe that if my students engage with their world more critically, their lives will be better. Thats optimistic. So im temperamentally optimistic. So bear with me. But i think its really important. There was a survey what this moment the opportunity that this presents to men is to rethink past behavior, to rethink what they have learned, what they have been taught, how they have behaved, and to begin to atone for some of that, to begin to retheorize that. And the economist published a survey this is the optimistic part the economist published a survey in november that showed that that asked men in workplaces, two age cohorts of men, 18 to 30 and over 60, and they asked them questions about workplace interactions, workplace behavior. Now, lets be clear. You know, masturbating in front of someone has always been wrong. But they asked them the sort of lowlevel stuff. Is it ok to call a woman honey or sweetheart . Is it ok to come up behind her and give her a neck massage . Is it ok to say, you look beautiful today . Well over, about twothirds of the 18 to 20yearolds said, that is not ok. And 80 of the 60 and more said it was. Young people know this. We have to we that have been doing this for a really long time, we have to follow them. Because those new norms are becoming more embedded in young peoples culture. So heres one very concrete thing. I think that this is a moment that men can do two things. The first is we have to listen to oprah, which is stfu. We have to listen to women. Weve got to stop talking to them and telling them about their oppression and man splaining. Weve got to listen because we can believe them. If were going to start to listen to women, weve got to Start Talking to other men. So i have a very concrete workplace idea. Every woman in this room has probably had this experience. Youve been in a meeting where youre virtually one of the only women or theres another woman in the room and theres a lot of men in the room. And somebody says something stupid and sexist. And everybody looks at you like, oh god, here she goes. Big eye roll, like shes going to ruin it now. So the woman is put in the position of either feeling terrible and making everybody else feel terrible or feeling , terrible alone. But shes now in the position, shes going to feel bad. After the meeting, one of the guys who was in the room, half hour later, comes up to you and says, oh, im really sorry about what happened in that meeting. At that point, you want to strangle him. You want to say, where were you when i needed you . So heres what i think has to happen. I would say, i cant speak up by myself because theyll marginalize me. I will become an honorary woman. Then ill get the condescending, and michael,haley when they say sorry in a condescending way. Men, you have to look around that room and see if theres somebody else besides you whos looking down at their shoes, shuffling papers uncomfortably, and you have to say half hour after the meeting, you go up to them and you say, listen, im not down with what bob was just saying over there. Next time we go to a meeting i am going to Say Something. Listen, as soon as i do, you have to jump in and say, i dont like it either. Right. One person does it, hes marginalized. If two people do it, we open up a space, and all the other guys can say i dont like it either. , and it stops right there. What im saying is, men have to do two things. One, we have to support each other in challenging one another. Those are the conversations i think have to happen with men. Very concretely, because weve all been in that meeting. Thank you. Maybe the other more brief . [laughter] michael im a college professor, they pay me to think in hour and 20minute chunks. Thank you. Haley annie . Annie vote. Seriously. Run for office. Show up and vote. And i will be brief, i promise. But i really want everybody to take away that there is something that you can do on an individual level, and everybodys activism does not have to look the same. I give this example often when trying to convince legislators that we should talk about consent and preschool and elementary school. My partner has a dog. Its a really cute dog. Anecdotally, theres no Scientific Research to back this up, but young boys will more often than not pet this dog without asking permission, and parents will not do anything. Young girls are more likely to ask permission. I have a dog. Where does your dog like to be pet . Can i pet your dog . And if they dont, parents will punish them. And so, thinking about consent and permission in everyday ways is really important. Whether you are a doctor, a teacher, a student, a sister, a friend, a parent, an ally, there is something you can do. And so my challenge would be not only to vote but to look at your everyday life. Whether it was watching the super bowl last saturday and there was a sexist commercial on and you didnt say anything, or who youre going to have lunch with after this. Im getting hungry. And so, think about those things that you can do in your everyday life. Then finally, it should not be on the backs or incumbent on survivors to end Sexual Violence and rape culture. And i know that centering allies is very important. But i just will end on a note that if you are a survivor of Sexual Violence, that i see you, i believe you, and to know that what happened was not your fault, whether youre Live Streaming or youre in this room. I believe you. And youre not alone. Thank you. Don i think the thing men should understand, and this is not just about fathers, but men in general, it is not a matter of talking to our daughters. This is a matter of talking to our sons. And being courageous in talking to our sons so that they are better men than we are. Thats the whole goal of any generation is the next generation is better. There was this commercial thats a really pathetic commercial of a father and a son in a car that breaks down and theyre waiting for someone to come fix the car because theyre waiting for roadside assistance. And the father goes, this is a Good Opportunity to have this conversation. Whatever the difficult conversation that follows, and all of a sudden the roadside assistance comes and the fathers like, whew. Masculinity and being a man is being courage, courageous, and strong and powerful and tough. Men are punks when it comes to this. [applause] don if being a man is being the ous then shut up and listen. And be engaged in the conversation. Im tired of this notion of this bravado masculinity and then at the same time, were saying, oh, well, im going to be accused of saying something wrong. Ok, so Say Something wrong and own it. Right . And then have the conversation. Then be brave in the conversation. Be brave enough to be wrong. That is a challenge. I dont like getting into this sort of like antagonistic, but this is a challenge to men. Enough with this already. Right . Enough of saying, i dont know what, im going to say the wrong thing. Say the wrong thing. Have the conversation. Be engaged in the conversation. And heres the thing. If you dont, in your silence, you are hurting your son, because right now and this is a you know, when a social change happens, does it happen at the tip of the spear . Women are saying, its going to happen at the tip of the spear. And you better wake up. If we as men dont say, hey, we need to wake up and help our sons and this is also same philosophy around higher education. Do i want to be at an institution if im a College President where my men at my institution know how to behave in the workplace . What i want to be at an institution where we say, no, we like our frat boys because they donate well to the institution. Or do i want my men leaving this institution knowing how to function in an egalitarian workplace and relationships. Thats what we should be striving for. If im a dad and i see my son, do i want my son to be the guy whos going, hey, yeah, im an olympicgrade swimmer and im at stanford on scholarship, but i raped an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. Where is the dissonance in our culture that we dont see that as an absolute failure of men, of raising our sons to be better people . Instead of defending their behavior we should be ashamed , that those men are living in the same decade that we are. Because we havent given them the tools to be better people. So i say to men, this is on to use the expression, this is on us to raise the next generation of men to be better than we are. [applause] haley thank you. Some concrete takeaways. Ill paraphrase in cspanfriendly language. Be quiet. Listen. Be engaged. And then be brave, right . Actually step up and face these things head on. The worst thing that happens to you seems to be that somebodys mad at something you said and the stakes of this debate, as weve talked about today, are so much higher for survivors and potential future survivors. Thank you so much to our panel. At this point, im going to turn things over to gary, who you have met already. Do we have time for questions . Lets take a question. Our first question is facebook live. Speaking of technology. This question comes from someone whos following along on facebook live. She is also a vital voices Global Leadership awards honoree. The question is, what does the panel think of the mentorher campaign . It seems very patriarchal and sends the wrong message that women need help. How can we get our Business Leaders to stop patronizing women and sending them the wrong message through their organizations . Michael . Michael michael. I think the context of this is very, very important. I share the same kind of discomfort with the hashtag, with the idea it seems to be a rescuing or condescending idea. But in the corporate world, i work with a lot of companies. Mentorship programs, sponsorship programs are vital for people to be able to navigate successfully their rise in the corporation. We know that mentorship programs, and especially sponsorship programs, mentoring programs basically are, youre basically a cartographer. You take someone under your wing and you help them map the company. And then youre kind of a civil engineer, right . You help them build a bridge from one part of it over this obstacle or something. And then you are a cheerleader you say, you go. , and it seems to me, ive worked with a lot of these mentoring programs internationally. They tend to be very success. Successful, and women like them. And theyre successful. Theyre effective. So in the corporate world, that idea of mentoring has a somewhat different it has different connotations for us. And the research, by catalyst on this is really quite persuasive as well. On the other hand, i had the same reaction when i heard it. Which is, eek, this is one of those moments where, you know, it sounds like its inviting men to rescue damsels in distress. Like, well take it from here. Well help you. I always think that that results in something that i like to call premature self congratulation for the men. Im not thrilled about it. I go both ways on that. Haley annie, don . Don im sorry. Haley do we have time for one more . My name is lisa. And im coming from the International Organization for migration. I just have a question in regards to the study that you spoke of. You mentioned some examples, some gray areas of Sexual Harassment and where you noted that you saw in the study that men over the age of 60 were more likely to not be so aware that their actions were inappropriate. How do we hold people that are currently in their positions at the top, how do we hold them accountable . Because right now, its a lot of he said, she said, how do you prosecute that a lot of the times . From things that ive heard, those people are maybe placed on administrative leave, or theyre moved somewhere else. Thats how its dealt with. So, how do we change that to set the example . Michael and not just simply wave wait for the next wave of people to rise to that. You know, this is this is the key question right now. A lot of the accusations that have been levied against some of the people have been 30 or 40yearsold. And i think we have to acknowledge that the rules have changed. My dad worked in a workplace that looked like don drapers. And by that, i mean all the men had all the offices with the windows. And the women, the secretarial pool, were gathered in the center, and sexual access to them was considered a perk of the job. That was normal. It is not normal anymore. So, the norms have changed. And it is important to say, with that, you know, we then are being invited to retheorize our past behavior. The stuff that we learned in locker rooms, you know, is now not acceptable. We have to acknowledge that. In one respect, we have to hold people accountable for past behavior. On the other hand, i also think that we have to acknowledge that we are playing by different rules. So i think its important, maybe something in the neighborhood of a truth and reconciliation idea where if we say, i did this, i was taught to do this, i behaved in this way because i thought that was normal. So if i do that, what do i get in return for that . You know, the idea is some kind of reconciliation. I get to come back into the universe of discourse. I dont get, then well, you did that so youre now exiled. So we have to find a way to both acknowledge what we did and then also find ways to come back and be accountable for it in moving forward. Annie i think two things. One, we need to talk about accountability. Like were all pretty, cspan, aware. Were very aware of whats happening. We need accountability and that can look like legislation, but it also needs to be cultural shifts and change. And those things, its the chicken or the egg. They need to happen together, and yeah. I just think accountability is huge, and just because somebody grew up 60 years ago, that might be an explanation, but that is not an excuse. Haley thats right. Thank you so much to my fantastic panelists. At this point, i am going to bring up gary barker to leave with us some final thoughts. [applause] gary just a quick couple of final reflections. First i want to thank vital voices for hosting us. Staff, and to new america for being part of this. Really hard to follow up with our with overarching conclusions. We had lots of points. Just a couple reflections. I was giving a couple talks. You have seen the images if you have not been there, about 2500 white, entitled men, and a growing percentage of women. A lot of nervous men who i think were thrilled when trump came in because they had a reason not to talk about Sexual Harassment. The main question they kept coming up with was, isnt this going to far . And now feeling uncomfortable. I said, embrace this moment, this is what women have felt like for centuries. Not get methat did many friends and i probably will not be invited back. I said, this is a moment of change. That moment you dont know where you are going. We do it men dont do, and that is, ask for directions. They just ran off to the coffee bar. Men, ask for directions. Ask. U dont know, sorry, cspan and all. Stop and ask. The other point i wanted to bring up is, i think while we are focused on this me too moment and the issue of harassment, sexualharassment is not the disease. It is a symptom of this thing called patriarchy and gender inequality. We like to think we have overcome it, that we are done. We have to put it in that framework. The solution is not a oneoff or a 45 minute powerpoint hr departments are doing across businesses. Ofis a whole suite sweep changes. Norway has done it and they have not sunken into the atlantic. Lets remember, this is a bigger picture. You heard me make a joke to make facts great again. We have things like the center for Disease Control that have not been put out of did put out of business yet, but this administration is trying to. There is data around comprehensive sexual history and Sexual Violence prevention the cdc has been developing over the years. There is a lot more needed, but they cannot do it if they are being systematically gutted. Is one of the casualties in this administration we need to Pay Attention to. The fourth and final point is, while men should be uncomfortable, and that is ok, and live with that moment, we should add a couple drops of sugar or honey to the water at the end of this. Also has as moment potential to be the greatest revolution in our lives as men. Which i think several of you alluded to, don in particular. We get to be better men, have the connections we want, acknowledge we dont know everything, that we havent done the brave things we said we did. We get to be more connected, rounded, happier human beings, which is not a bad thing for us or the planet. Part of this is to figure out, we want men in the door to say, we have skin in this game. Not to take it over. I love the posters here, to stand down. Remember where the conversation started. Not to recenter it, but to live in a moment to say, our lives can get better in this me too moment. I learned it from these gentlemen, but also the womens whose pictures lead us to be able to say, gender exists and is causing harm and we as men have a stake in it. We want to say, we did not invent this yesterday. There are things we can put out there in a more unified way. Thanks for offering us the space to do this. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] our prime time coverage tonight includes a discussion with several africanamerican women journalists including april ryan, on their experiences covering the trump administration. From George Washington university, that is at 8 00 p. M. Eastern here on cspan. Tonight on cspan two, a discussion on u. S. Immigration policy and the human toll on border crossings. That is from the university of michigan ford school. Cspan history series landmark cases returns this month with a look at 12 new Supreme Court cases. Each week, historians and experts of join us to talk about constitutional issues and personal stories behind these significant Supreme Court decisions. Live at 9 00 p. M. Eastern. Have a companion guide written by veteran Supreme Court journalist, tony morrow