Cspan. Org landmarkcases. Ntinues. Host joining us now is c. J. Criminal justice reporter with reason magazine, here to talk about his recent piece about drugfree zones and sentencing. We are talking about it as part of our spotlight on magazines series. Thank you for joining us today. Guest thanks for having me. Host what made you want to have a look at this topic in particular . Guest the reason we started looking into this is the Tennessee Legislature is considering shrinking the size of their Drug Free School zones. They considered it last year at are doing it again this year. Several states have also done this. Own laws existls in all 50 states, including the district of columbia. Drugally, they enhance charges if you are caught with drugs near a school. They also include things like libraries, parks, rec centers. The size of them they have a fairly large size. In tennessee, the size around schools is 1000 feet, which is about three city blocks from any School Property or library. The recent tennessee is looking at reforming this is because a lot of criminal justice advocates and Community Activists say these laws are over applied and is proportionally disproportionately impact minorities. Myth in your title is the of the playground pusher. Is that really a myth . Guest the reason these school zone laws came about is, if you grew up in the 1980s or lived around that time, you have this image in your head you can also this. The image of a shifty guy in a trenchcoat handing a kid a bag of dope through a playground fence. That was the impetus of this law. The problem is that, as far as we can tell we asked several former and current prosecutors, anded at a lot of cases, the people getting prosecuted for these laws are almost never actually dealing drugs to minors. There was a service done survey done by the Massachusetts Assistant Attorney general done in the 2000s. Worth of at a years drug cases and found exactly one instance of a drug deal to a occurred in an apartment at night, not actually at a school. Are not actually a lot of drug dealers hanging out around schools. What these laws have actually done, our investigation found, is they tend to blanket whole areas in these Drug Free School zones. They result in very long drug sentences for firsttime offenders, and they do, indeed, have a disproportionate impact on minority communities, because these zones tend to cluster in low income minority neighborhoods because of the proximity of Public Schools and low Income Housing and libraries. Host we are joined by c. J. Ciaramella of reason magazine talking about his piece. Have regional lines for this conversation. In the eastern or central time zones, call 202 7488000. If you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, call 202 7488001. You mentioned tennessee. You took a look at tennessee. I want to read an excerpt from your article on that. On july 9, two thousand eight, officers of the columbia, Tennessee PoliceDepartment ArrestedMichael Goodrum and charged him with possession of crack cocaine with intent to distribute in a drugfree school zone. But Michael Goodrum was not peddling dope to kids on a playground. He was not on School Property. School was not in session. In fact, he was not in sight of a school. Talk about how the prosecution under these schools own loss can take place even when they are not on property . Of schools . Of schools . Guest tennessee decided that even when take place school is not in session. Traffic are at a in a traffic stop and are stopped within these enhanced areas and have drugs on you, you could get three years with possible probation or eight years, mandatory minimum. In extreme cases, you can get up to 15 years mandatory minimum sentence, which is the same felony level as seconddegree murder or rape. And you have the chance of early release, about 85 of time served with those crimes, but not with the school phone school zone offense. It is possible you serve more timein prison as a first nonviolent drug offense than a rapist. Host are there laws in other places of the country that impose penalties that steep as the ones you are talking about in tennessee or where these drugfree zone laws are used as frequently to prosecute crimes . Exist in all 50 states. Tennessee has among the harshest penalties, but these are frequent throughout the country. The size varies. Alabama actually has three mile wide school zone laws. Those are the largest. The smallest one goes down to about 100 feet. They are more commonly seen between 1000 and 500. Several states have performed their laws to shrink the zones down. Massachusetts got it down to about 300. Utah brought it down to 100. Indiana, under governor mike pence, schrock theirs to about 500 feet shrunk theirs to about 500 feet. Host steve is calling from maryland. Caller how are you . Guest good. Caller we completed some work at the critique middle school in baltimore, maryland. While we were there, these middle schools would walk up and they would be smoking marijuana. The Security Guard was witnessed smoking dope with these children, right in front of the school, the school entry. I do not have a comment about the school laws, but these children have a hard enough time going to make it anyway, and smoking dope right in front of the school is certainly not going to enhance their chances to be successful members of society. Guest well, i agree. I do not think anyone is arguing that doing drugs on School Grounds should not be prosecuted. What advocates are saying is and the zones are too wide the penalties apply in far too many cases that there should be normal or mitigated circumstances. Like i said, these cases are exceedingly rare, yet these laws wrapped up an enormous amount of criminal offenders and slapped them with higher charges. The review i cited earlier said drug cases in school zones almost never involved minors. Host we have a call from west palm beach, florida. Caller good morning. I think your story is a little lame. I think you are nitpicking. I am listening carefully and you are admitting these are rare cases. The thing that gets me is when anyone gets on there and say is proportionately black or roportinately this or that, come on. Who is committing the crimes . If i go into a white neighborhood, i will arrest white people. The english so slanted. You can tweak these laws so that if someone is selling drugs within a three mile radius to not a student, then tweak the laws to make it a criminal offense if it is not to a student. Guest sure. I can give the exact stats. Tennessee, blacks make up about 69 of the population in prisons even though there are only about 10 of the population. In a middleclass suburb or rich neighborhood, you are farther away from a school or Public Service like that and are not caught in these overlapping drug zones. That is what is happening. Knoxville is about 38 covered by drugfree school zones, but ast knoxville, which was historically segregated portion, is 58 covered. That is what i am talking about. Host i want to read another excerpt from your piece, which gets to the History Congress created the first drugfree zone law in 1970 as part of the federal copperheads of drug abuse prevention and control act. At this time, supporters argue the lost detergent children drugs of the children and reduced other criminal activity associated with drugs in or around schools. What have we learned since then and has congress acted since then to change these laws . They are stille in effect at the federal level. Like i said, a lot of these states are starting to roll these back. Utah used to have very strong drugfree school zone laws. They covered about 10 of the state and included things like movie theaters and arcades. Washington state included bus stops. They found one that included bus stops, it basically covered everywhere in a drugfree school zone. Since then, they have removed some of that designation, because they saw the effect this was having. If you look at a map of this, it basically blankets entire town spirit i talked to an towns. Aclu guy, and he said the only place not covered in new haven, connecticut was the yale golf course. Host darnell is calling from montana. Good morning. Caller i am calling from st. Louis. Host sorry. Go ahead. Caller good morning. , innted to ask your guests his research, has he been able to find that, until recently 1980s,the 1970s and there has been an epidemic in city neighborhoods where a lot of these guys that got caught up in these drug laws were actually addicts seeking treatment but were denied treatment. And they were just sent out to prison with 10 and 20 year sentences under this school laws own thing, where actually they were at home when they were a school. Ver near also, has he had a chance to look, in his research, concerning this Opioid Crisis that has, up. And all of a sudden, since it is affecting white people, they want to create laws and are giving them treatment and giving them probation, every other thing they can give them before they go to prison. Can he comment on that . Host lets give him a chance to comment. States have actually expanded their drugfree school zone laws to include opioid offenses. A response toing that, in some ways. But not a lot of states. It has not really caught on. We did find evidence of police using addicts as informants and paying them to set up drug deals, where they would then charge the people with school zone offenses. There was one case that sticks out to me, where a 20yearold a bag of psychedelic mushrooms to a police informant, who was making about 100 for every arrest she contributed to add a gas station at night. It turned out he was within 500 feet of the school, and he received a 15 year mandatory minimum sentence, and he had no prior criminal history. Sort ofhow these laws work on a daily basis in tennessee. Host kevin is calling from oklahoma. The morning. Morning. Good caller good morning. Is to, what we need to do we arerate those that afraid of, not those we are mad at, visavis the drug laws. Your comment on that . Think what ii would say is that, in a lot of these cases, may be the best response is not sending somebody to jail for these enormous amount of years. Bjectively looking at this, it is hard to save what the benefit is for is something somebody to jail for years on what amounts to minor cases. You and you have to imagine, like in the other case of the 20yearold kid going to jail for 15 years, what is his Life Experience and skills going to be when he gets out at 35 with the Life Experience of a 20yearold, after spending 15 years of hard time in state prison . Those are things we have to consider with how these laws are applied. What do you see in terms of reforms being put in place by people who are troubled by how these laws are being enforced . Are we seeing much in the state or local level . Guest the American Social exchange council, a conservative group, passed a resolution urging states to reform their drugfree schools own laws. You are seeing a big bipartisan andition among conservative liberal and criminal justice at these and say do we really need these zones to be so big . You see a lot of Community Activism around this issue in tennessee, because there are a lot of affected families. There is momentum to change these laws. Several states have. Host how does the federal response play into all this . Thehave reported how attorney general, jeff sessions, ordered federal prosecutors to charge the highest possible drug gentence possible or boostin enforcement of drug prosecutions. How does that play in to this . Guest it is more of a mindset. The memo was more a shift in attitude. We do not see a lot of these sort of school zone and low state and local they are not being prosecuted by the feds. So that sort of tough on crime mentality has an effect on how prosecutors do their job. A lot of prosecutors go out and want to get the toughest possible sentence. A schoolhy they charge zone offense during a traffic stop, because they have leverage and a plea deal. It gives them a enormous leverage over defendants where they can from them with a 15 year mandatory minimum sentence. The National District attorney actually ran on a platform of not charging school zone offenses where there were not children involved. He actually saw these laws and not reallythis is how these laws are supposed to work, and i am not going to use these to prosecute people. Host mary is calling from california. Good morning. Caller good morning. I have been a substitute teacher for decades. Every friday, you could smell from theuana wafting bathrooms. It does not matter where they get it. They get it. It could be a home. It could be two miles away. For people to be losing their whole lives going to jail for 20, 15 years, whatever, it is a tragedy. They get out and have no jobs. They are homeless. They have nothing they can do with their lives. They are just creating criminals , creating Homeless People with no life for what . Where you canlace pick something up two miles away, bring it into a school, and there is nothing you can do about it. Host what is your reaction . Guest you have to ask yourself, in the case of actual minors, do you want to send them to prison for a mandatory minimum sentence. The youngest tennessee inmate we found was charged at age 16 and received an eight year mandatory minimum sentence. Guyher case, we found a selling cocaine out of his apartment and received a 15 year mandatory minimum, and he has missed almost his sons entire childhood, from kindergarten through college move in day. That is the human cost of these laws. C. J. Ciaramella i will get it right before the end of the segment, thank you for joining us to talk about this article as part of our spotlight on magazine series. You also formerly worked at was d and the buzzfee Washington Free beacon. Has there been any pushback . Guest they are popular among conservatives and among prosecutors. They give prosecutors immense leverage over defendants. Press if it is really like these lost it when people try to roll them back, they tend to face the very registrable but effective rhetoric, which is look at state legislator soandso here who wants to make it easier for people to sell drugs to kids. That response has scuttled several reform efforts. There is a bipartisan growing group among republicans who sort of see the problem with this, so you are starting to see more momentum. But it has been a little tough to get more of the law and order conservatives on board with this. That is what killed the bill in tennessee last year. Host mary is calling from martinsville, virginia. Think these laws are an effective tool in the toolbox for Law Enforcement or whomever. Where a city park, paid for by taxes, but was next door it became just a drug land. Run from onewere town and moved to the park, the people that ran the drug market. It affected what the park was built for. And i had to pay for it. So i think they are effective. Host what is your reactive reaction . Guest if they were affected, you would see some different in drug activity inside and outside the zone, but when you look at what actually happens, you do not. In a lot of cases, that is because these zones are not clearly marked. There is no sign outside that says you are now entering a drugfree zone. That around schools in some places, but if you want to make these laws more effective, one way to do is put clearly marked signs, let people know now, you are entering a drugfree zone. If you commit an offense, you will get a very hefty time in prison. That is what a lot of advocates also say. That these zones need to be more clearly marked he is in a lot of cases, when these zones overlap and create these sort of super zones, people do not even know they are in them, because the entire neighborhood is a drugfree zone. That goes to the heart of the problem. Is that if an entire neighborhood is a drugfree school zone, it has no particular deterrent effect. Linda is calling from greensboro, north carolina. Good morning. Caller good morning. How are you . Guest doing great. Caller i like what you are talking, and you make a lot of sense, but my question is, as an advocate and a person who wants to help the change going about i know that the constitution says that when a person is locked up, they are not a slave, any color. But when they are in for an excessive number of years, aged 14 and 12 to 20, like you say, we are destroying a whole generation of people. Gettinge go about congress to change these laws and these rules that have been in effect so long . Personally, i think the constitution is outdated, and the judges they are putting in , we been so political lives are losing people. I do not care what color they are. Aret the judges hands sort of tied in these cases because of the mandatory minimums. It is really incumbent on legislatures to reform these laws if they want to change anything. The prosecutors use the tools they have, and in a lot of ways, you cannot blame them. Police charge people, Police Arrest and charge people based on what they find. Legislator legislature that makes these laws and the legislature that needs to change them. We are seeing more awareness around this issue because of what you were saying, which is the familys that have been affected here there are a lot of families in tennessee spending every day emailing their state orislatures, saying my son has been, who has been locked up all this time, for a long nonviolent drug offense because of the laws you past that is why we are starting to see this movement to roll back some of these laws. Host jackie is calling from arlington, virginia. Good morning. Caller good morning. Host go ahead. Caller good morning. How are you guys doing . Guest very good. Host what is your question . Caller my question is this the gentleman cited blacks as disproportionately affected by drugs and drug use, so how do you get your gator . Data. From 2006 to 2016 said drug use is higher among whites. That include when you say disproportionately among blacks host c. J. Was talking about prosecutions. You are correct. Drug use is fairly equivalent among races. The disproportionate part is whose getting sentenced under these laws p. M. We found out blacks in tennessee were widely overrepresented in these prison sentences and, on average, receive longer sentences. That is the actual imbalance. Like i said, part of that has to do with what neighborhoods are in these zones and the proximities of schools and things like that. What the National District attorney told me was when we passed these laws, we unintentionally made drug offenses the same level as murder. That is sort of what happened. These towns in enhanced sentencing zones. And we have seen this disparate impact. Host john is calling from wisconsin. What is your question . Caller based upon what i could see, most of the people that will dabble in drugs, either selling it or buying it, they have no information about how it affects them or someone else. You never see any advertising on television concerning any of that stuff. That is my question. The opioid, i think crisis, for whatever reason, well, it is bad, but we see more Public Awareness around addiction and things like that in recent years. To get sortstarting of a more Public Health response, although there has response toe the opiate crisis, where we are seeing states pass things like making opioid dealer subject to felony murder laws if someone overdoses. There is both the Public Health response and a more cars through response. Can c. J. Ciaramella, you find his work at reason. Com and announcer cspans washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. Coming up this morning, how military funding effects readiness with the heritage foundation. And the future of daca. We will also look at how shortterm government funding bills impact Public Health agencies. The president and ceo of trust for Americas Health will join us. Be sure to watch cspans washington journal, live at 7 00 a. M. Eastern this morning. Join the discussion. Announcer tonight on afterwords, Republican NationalCommittee Spokesperson kelly megan any on her book the new American Revolution the making of a populist movement. She is interviewed by matt lewis. I have had conservatives say to me, why do you use this word . I am not a populist. I have had liberals express versions of that word. To me it sums up what this book is about, the people. I really wanted to honestly profile the people on the left and on the right. Most people i profiled were trump voters, and to me it was capturing the sentiment that drove the electorate to deliver one of the most astonishing electoral defeats we have seen, certainly in my lifetime and in modern history. It is a profile of the american people. Afterwordstch tonight at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan2s book tv. Announcer several World Leaders were in switzerland this past week for the annual World Economic forum. 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