Transcripts For CSPAN Perspectives On North Korea 20171231

Thae distinguished members of the House Committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. Express myglad to sincere gratitude to chairman royce, who kept his promise to accommodate my wishes to visit the United States and date me this opportunity to testify before the House Committee on affairs. As you are all aware, i worked at the front line of north korean diplomacy until i defected to south korea in summer of 2016. But my story is quite different from other defectors who may have experienced political impression, local oppression, Inhumane Treatment in prison camps, or to avoid hunger and other difficulties. I would like to tell you about my life as a north korean diplomat. Why i defected to the free world. Why actions oh moon is developing and a program and how best to deal with the north korean regime. Causes in north which cannot be dreamed of by ordinary citizens of their. At the age of 14, i was sent to china for a special educational program. More than 20 years of my past 55 years of my life was very privileged by north korean standards. I lived and worked in Foreign Countries such as china, denmark, sweden, and the united kingdom. The north korean system provided me with all kinds of political privileges and economic benefits during this time and in the course of my love, i was fortunate enough to live in the u. K. With my wife and two sons. Throughout my life, my family members and relatives were all dedicated communists. Ironically, however, i ended up deserting that system and ideology and it lived in south korea where i did not have any friends or relatives. Today, i and even testifying at the United States congress, which i had always been taught to fight against. The reason why i gave up all the privileges and economic benefits was that i felt i could not let my sons lead a life like me as a modernday slave. Legacy id the best could leave for my sons was to give them the freedom that is so common to everyone in america. Had we not defected, i feared that some date my sons would have cursed me for forcing them back to north korea. They were used to online gaming, facebook messaging, email, and internet news. I believe my sons would suffer a lot if they returned to the north korean system. Indeed, how could any boys raised in the london Education System and familiar with freedom of thought ever go back and reclimate ties to a life in north korea . Freedomnot confiscate or enjoyment of liberty from them. I could not take back the happy smiles of my sons by bringing them back to north korea. I could not force my sons to pretend to be loyal to moon and the north korean system and to kim jongunlive like i did all my life. As a north korean diplomat, like y services were of life, which was psychologically difficult. Toave to pretend to be loyal the moon regime even though my heart did not agree. I often was asked questions on my british friends which caused caught me flatfooted, trying to justify the north korean system went deep down i knew there concerns were fair and legitimate. They asked me things such as, how could he his uncle . White did north korea continue to military aid while pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into nuclear and Missile Development . Communism has always opposed dynamic transfers of power, so how does kims families prevailed so long in north korea . While dealing with these kinds of questions was always painful and they made me increasingly realize the deep rooted of which thes entire north korean system is built. You might think that leaving a member as an elite class of north korea is all about fine wines and , yet the reality for many privileged people is far different. For example, all highranking leaders have to leave live are electively in separate apartments according to write. Moreover, getting promoted within this system actually requires more sacrifices, reduced freedoms, and an increasing risk on your life. Even though you might enjoy more economic benefits as a result. Indeed, if it is discovered a senior elite may have different ideas or have revit dissatisfactions, then he or see could he or she could be subject to execution. Even the members of the kims families has been suspect desk subject to this type of such was the case with kim jonguns uncle and halfbrother. Highprofile come up much more has been going on beneath the surface of the past five years. Hundreds of casualties have been persecuted without due process. Families of former north Korean Ambassadors to cuba and malaysia will work sent to prison camps and nobody knows if they are alive or dead. Former north Korean Ambassador of sweden and former north Korean Ambassador to unesco were also forced to return back to pyongyang and expelled from the Foreign Ministry after the deaths of while on the surface, the kim jongun regime seems to have consolidated its power through its rate of terror, simultaneously there are great and unexpected changes taking place within north korea. Policy and official wish of the regime, the free markets are flourishing. As more and more people get used to free and capitalist style markets, the state owned socialist Economic System becomes increasingly forgotten about. The welfare system of north korea has long collapsed and millions of civil servants, army officers, and Security Forces anddependent on bribes asset embezzlement for their survival. Citizens do not care about propaganda, but increasingly watch illegally imported south korean movies and dramas. The domestic system of control is weakening as the days go by. 2010, many experts said it would have been possible to imagine such similar events taking place in north korea. However, make it increasingly possible to think about uprising in north korea. As more and more people gradually become informed about the reality of their Living Conditions, the north korean government will either have to change and adapt in positive ways for its citizens, or to face the consequences of their escalating dissatisfaction. Until now, the north korean system has prevailed through an effective and credible reign of terror and by almost perfectly preventing the free flow of outside information. Today, kim jongun thinks that only Nuclear Weapons and icbms can help him avert the continuing disintegration of the north korean system. He also thinks that the existence of prosperous and democratic south korea so close to the border is a major threat to his dynasty. The toolsjongun has to destroy south korea effectively, he also believes it is necessary to drive American Forces out of the peninsula. And this can be done, he believes, by being able to credibly threaten the continental United States with Nuclear Weapons. On top of thousands of pieces and short term short range missiles, the potential deployment of Nuclear Icbms means the threat is not only towards south korea, but also towards america. This emerging situation, the u. S. Government is now pursuing a policy of maximum pressure and engagement. However, it will take some time to assess the effectiveness of the current economic sanctions and campaign of diplomatic isolation. Outcome,t to see the we should seek to continue the momentum and even expand positive sanctions until the to theorean regime comes dialogue table for denuclearization. In face of emerging threat, we should strengthen the u. S. And republic of Korea Alliance and enhance military preparedness in order to prevent potential nuclear and icbm provocations by north korea. The u. S. And republic of korea governments should enhance the level of their coordination and communication under the slogan of, we go together. It is a long established dialogue of north korea to exclude south korea while communicating only with the u. S. The United States and south korean governments should this north korea footbridge through strong ordination. Frankly, kim jongun is not fully aware of the strength and might of American Military power. Because of this misunderstanding, kim jongun genuinely believes that he can break the regime apart once he compels washington to accept north koreas new status after successfully completing the development of his icbm program and putting the new missiles into development. Do not believe in soft power, but only in military options. But it is necessary to have triedwhether we all nonmilitary options before we decide that military action against north korea is all that is left. Before any military action is taken, i think it is necessary to meet kim jongun at least once to understand his thinking and try to convince him that he would be destroyed if he continues his falling current corruption. Change the policy of terror of the kim jongun regime, but we can educate north korean population to stand up by disseminating outside information. Isever, if the United States not doing enough in this regard, the u. S. Spending billions of dollars to cope with the military threat and how much does the u. S. Spent each year on information activities involving north korea in the year . Unfortunately, it may not be an yet we might not know that the soviet union and Eastern European countries crumbled as a result of dissemination of outside information and the subsequent changes in thinking caused among people in those systems. Indeed, the berlin wall would not have easily collapsed if east german people did not regularly watch west german tv. To sum up, much more needs to be done to increase the flows of information into north korea. Could notnification have been achieved if hungarian government did not open its border with austria to provide an exit route for the east german people. Now, some 30,000 north korean defectives have come to south korea. However, tens of thousands of north korean defectors are living without papers under the shadows and are being physically or sexually exploited. While the u. S. Continues urging china and russia to support more economic sanctions, it should also do more to start beijing stop beijing sending effectors back to north korea. The world was united to abolish the South African apartheid, now it is time for the world to stop the widespread and systematic Human Rights Violations in north tantamount tore the crimes committed by the nazis. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my opening statement. Thank you again for this opportunity and i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much mr. Thae. You make clear in your remarks that as more and more people gradually become informed about the reality of their Living Conditions in what they are told is a paradise, but they find out how people are living in south world,r the rest of the that the north korean government will either have to change and adapt in positive ways for its citizens, or to face the consequences of the peoples escalating dissatisfaction. As you said, it has been a powerful impact in the soviet union and can have the same effect in north korea. My question is, what kind of messages should we focus on sending into north korea . Who are the best . Is it former defectives who have a story to tell who can report the news of what they have seen in the outside world . , as yould our message said, the elites, should our message to the elites be different than the message we would help people send to the Common People in north korea . You have made clear that both are increasingly dissatisfied the regime, so what would be your suggestion . Thae first, a north korean system can only be embraced by making is a leader so, we have to find out where is the hill . After five years in power, and junk food cannot still tell north Korean People is the of birth. Nobody in north korea knows. His date of birth. Nobody in north korea knows who his father is. Knows hisnorth korea halfbrother nobody in north korea knows he is the only third son of kim jongun, kim jongil. Brainwashingun is the north korean population that ,s the only bloodline of but after five years of this kind of continuing brainwashing, he still cannot provide north korean population with a single photo with his grandfather kim ilsung. Why . Because he was the hidden boy by his father. He was kept secretly and silently in switzerland. But majority of north korean thisation do not know fact. So we should disseminate this information about who he is, why even now kim jongun cannot present even a single photo with his grandfather because his grandfather didnt know the existence of this boy. Majority of north Korean People do not know that his father kim jongil has several ladies to live with. So we should tell north Korean People that kim jongun and his father, kim jongil, and his grandfather, kim ilsung, the whole members of that kim dynasty, are not that is the first thing that we should do. And we should disseminate the basic concept of freedom and human rights. North korea is a country with a system of classification. The population of north korea are divided to different classes and we have to tell the north population how stupid the system it is. It is similar like a feudal class system of several hundred years ago. So we have many things to tell to north Korean People that it is not a paradise, it is not a socialist welfare system, it is the worst in human system in human history. In terms of our dialogue with aging, with beijing, what should we be pressing beijing on in respect to north korea . Mr. Thae i think we should continue the momentum to inducing Chinese Government to support economic sanctions against north korea, but that is not enough. Hold ties government not to repatriate defectors back to north korea. Chinese government knows once these defectors are repatriated back to north korea, they would be the subject of torture, they would be the subject of an enforcement of labor. So we should let Chinese Government open the route to hidingorea for all the north korean defectors in china. I mentioned a little bit about the Corporation Cooperation between the governments during the process of german reunification. Healthese government north korean defectors to go freely to south korea, i think that could happen a massive exodus of north korean population to china through their borders with china. To south korea through china . Mr. Trae yes, thats right. If chinese open their routes to south korea, north korean system would collapse in a very short span of time. Thank you. We go now to mr. Eliot engel, our ranking member. Your comments are very riveting, very important to give us insight. When i was there, kim jongun ill was the leader and he was referred to as the deleter dear leader. Im wondering if kim jongun has a similar title you walk into every room, there were pictures of the two of them on the wall. There was something very scary. Is that still the case with kim jongun . Course, and kim jongun even upgraded his Propaganda Campaign to make him as a god of north Korean People. Thank you, so is there any scenario in which north korea might freeze or dismantle its longrange Missile Program . What would be the best means to persuade north korea to do so . Think first kim jongun Still Believes he can believe he can achieve his goal. So we should continue to tell north korean leadership and with kim jongun himself, that america will not accept north armed state. Clear north korea has seen how india and pakistan achieved that goal and they want to follow india and pakistan. But we should clearly clarify that this would not the case for north korea. Rep. Engel from what you know about the internal dynamics of the north korean political and Economic Systems, how might increased in sternal external pressures lead the north korean government to change course . If not, why not . Mr. Thae as i said, of the current economic sanctions so far, its not enough, so we should increase more constant sanctions and the second, we have to wait and see to witness the effectiveness of the current economic sanctions. North korea is used to that kind of sanctions and north korea has a certain amount of stockpiles of war. So we have to wait until when north korea opens its doors for war stockpiles. Then north korea starts to open its stockpiles of food and oil and we may be see how long north korea can rep. Engel one of the things that shocked us when we first came into pyongyang were these it,ive billboards, and logical propaganda ones, and one of them, i dont know if joe wilson is here, but he took a picture of one of those posters and it was a north korean soldier putting a bayonet in the head of an american soldier and we knew it was an american soldier is his helmet said usa on it. It was very frightening, very scary. We mentioned it to the north korean authorities. One thing that stuck in my mind, when we were talking about the nuclear program, we never did meet with the dear leader, but we met with his next person, whose name was i think also can. Kim. O we were told, he said Saddam Hussein didnt have Nuclear Weapons and look how he wound up. , really showed me a bit of a mindset how they really think Nuclear Weapons are the key to being players. Otherwise, south korea would run circles around them because of the prosperity and the economic of theies and the soul regime. But even back then, this was about 12 years ago, talked about Nuclear Weapons as their key to success in the future. Is that still the mindset . Mr. Thae yes, still kim jongun regime Still Believes they can guarantee permanent system of north korea by Nuclear Icbms because they think prosperous and democratic south korea itself is a threatening the existence of north korea itself. Thats why they think and believe that icbm tipped with Nuclear Weapons is the guarantee for their survival. One engel let me ask you brief question. My final question is, have you observed any changes in north korea in recent years that might suggest an expanded United States Information Campaign targeting audiences inside north korea might be more successful than past efforts . How would you go about changing North Koreans perception of the outside world . The south korean content first arrived in north korea through smuggling, north korean authorities tried every measures to prevent it even by anducting public executions rampant arrests of the people who watch south korean movies and dramas. But whatever measures they take, the demand for south korean cultures increased. So north korean regime learned that that kind of enforcement cannot problem. Thats why, for the past few years, they are now developing their own footage to prevent north korean population to watch south korean movies they decided to open the archives of kim jongil and those photoslter from the former soviet union and the former soviet Eastern European countries to find out which films can meet the demands of enjoyment for the north Korean People. There are stores where they sell those dvd discs with hundreds of films, andms, german even american cartoons like jerry,ng, tom and or the like. They learned that in order to fill the demands, they should do something. The regime is very afraid of dissemination of information. So i think if we continue to continuete, and if we to make a tailormade content for north korea, we can make a change in north korea. Those contentsw, which north Korean People are watching are those which are produced for a south korean audience, not North Koreans. They just watch it for their amusement and entertainment. Far doose contents so northtually relate to the korean citizens way of thinking. It can make them critically analyze the life of north korea. Makeis why we should tailormade content which can educate north korean population. I think it is time we should invest to make that kind of very can compelent which the basic concepts of freedom, human rights and democracy. R mr. Chris smith of new jersey. Smith thank you for providing your insights and observations. I remember during the cold war, it used to be said that the iron curtain is not soundproof. Your idea of ratcheting up the freedom broadcasting could not comment at a more timely point in this terrible, escalating conflict. Ask you to things. First, you have made a stunning observation that it china were to receive defectors and facilitate passage into south korea, that it could truly debilitate the regime. I have had several hearings on this. China violates the Refugee Convention with impunity. The whole idea of rapprochement is to send them into the gulags or benefit by trafficking those people who come in particularly, the women who come into sexual or labor trafficking. They are violating the convention. My hope is that your words to the Chinese Government, as well as ours, will be actionable. That is a very benign way of trying to deescalate and end this crisis. Thank you. You might want to speak to that further. Secondly, we underestimate the whole idea of juche and the cult of personality. The fanaticism of Imperial Japan was based upon the believe that this was god. That he was god. And you said that that is exactly how they look at the ki ms. ,hat leads to fanaticism because he is god. I was wondering if you could shed some insight on whether or not people believe that, and to what degree. That is a potent force coupled with Nuclear Weapons. Mr. Thae about the case in china. If you visit the chinese border with north korea, you can easily learn that the Chinese Government has built up an Extensive Network of catching north korean defectors along its borders. If a defector is caught, then he is caught. These days, they have built more to stem the mass exodus of the north korean population. Now, the Chinese Government is saying it is concerned about any if thee refugee crisis north korean system collapses. But, that is not really the truth. And therean defectors population in general have a place to go. South korea would accommodate all north korean defectors from china. So the chinese argument that burden thehover or cost is not true. A government of south korea, which can accommodate all of those north korean defectors. So we should continue to ask Chinese Government to open the exit route for north korean defectors to go to south korea. Chinesed ask the government to establish caps for defectors temporarily, and for the continuation of their journey to south korea. I think that is the thing we should do. And china is the number china is a member of Refugee Conventions. The Chinese Government has an obligation to observe its international obligation, by lifting north korean defectors to go to china. Thing, the idea of, you know, personal culture in north korea. It is really, really surprising, because in north korea, when you five,the age of four or you are brainwashed. For instance, every morning the Young Children are forced to bow in front of the portraits of kim jongil, kim ill soon, and kim sun, and kim jongiun. The portraits are distributed as gifts. As the regime established a full ,cale of a brainwashing system kims aspicted the gods. We should continue to educate them. He is not a god. He is a normal human being. Kims family is human. To urge thistinue point. Next, a north korean jo, spokeinhee grace at the george w. Bush institute. We begin with an introduction by first lady laura bush. Mrs. Bush grace joe came to the United States as a refugee from north korea. She knows what it is like. As it recipient of the north korean freedom scholarship, grace wants to help other North Koreans trapped beyond long pyongyangs iron curtain. Please join me in introducing grace jo. [applause] my name is grace jo, and i am an american. [laughter] grace thank you. [applause] thank you. I was fearful. Raised me until i was seven years old. She passed away. She starved, and she did not have food to eat. Her last words were to ask us to leave the village and survive. Her last wish was to eat baked potato. I was so little, i could not provide for her, but by the grace of god i survived and came to america. I found freedom. Me,ather, who was a hero to urged us to find a way to leave north korea. However, the regime ruthlessly killed my father. His crime was to cross the border between china and north crime was tos own bring a bag of rice for his dying children. He was not able to see or stand completely. He starved for many days, and was tortured. My youngest brother died because of starvation. We did not have enough to make his porridge. He decided to leave us first, maybe because he realized that wereegime and the country not worth staying. Sometimes, i could eat meat. Difficult, butas way better than life in north korea. I had to run from place to place. Hard. Ed very we were caught many times by chinese lease and forcefully sent back to north korea. Each time we were sent back, i had unforgettable memories. I realized that freedom was a treasure. I am now happy college student. Life. Almost the dream of going toamed university and studying all i want. Andcame a college student, i am very honored and happy to share this news. I also work at a private dental office and support my family, traveling from place to place to raise my voice for my people. I cannot imagine if i lived in north korea or in china, so i feel very blessed, again. And i am happy to be an american. [applause] grace American Leadership to advance freedom in the world is essential. It is the most important and valuable thing in this world, i believe. Try to help other people, it is difficult, and they themselves faced difficulties. Keeping a person alive is 10 times harder than killing one, so you are doing a good job. We Work Together to have the ability to change the world. Thank you. [applause] journalist Blaine Harden is the author of escape from cap 14. Tells the story of a man born into captivity at a north korean prison camp, and escaping in 2005. Harden talked on cspans q a program in 2012. Your book is called escape from camp 14. His first memory is an execution. What are you talking about . Harden he was born in camp 14, 1 of the political labor camps in north korea. At the age ofry, four, was going to a place where he grew up to watch someone get shot. Public executions in the camp were held every few weeks. They were a way of punishing people who violated rules, and 20,00040,000 people who lived in the camp to obey the rules. You say in your book you have been to north korea once. Did you see a camp . nobody has seen a camp besides guards and people who go into them, and most of them never come out. There are now five or six of these camps, and they contain between 150,000 and 2000 prisoners. And the exception 200,000 prisoners. With the exception of a few, if you are imagined by the north korean government of having done something wrong, and you go there without trial, usually you will be taken away at night. You will stay there for the rest of your life. The rest of your life. And very often, you will go with your kids and your parents. I was at it conference the other andon concentration camps, the latest information is that half of the people in the camps are believed to be just the relatives of wrongdoers or wrong thinkers. Guilt is very much a part of this system. The reason the camps exist and have existed for more than 40 years is because they are an instrument of terror of the kim dynasty. What they do is, they put away those who might cause trouble. 23 they terrorize the million, 24 Million People in the country to not even think about causing trouble. To that end, they have been pretty darn successful. Been the longest lasting totalitarian state in world history. Google shot of north korea. You can see on their the line of china. There the lineon of china. When you were there, what do you remember . What is in your minds eye . Harden going to north korea is not a good way to report about it. I went with a group of about 600 westerners when the new York Philharmonic went to pyongyang at the invitation of the government for a special concert. And like almost all western visitors, we were housed in a Highrise Hotel on an island in john yang island in pyongyang, and taken to places they wanted to show off. Statues, grand avenues, the subway. We were taken to the air plane and left. My study based on north korea is that the country is bizarre, and full of white concrete and immaculatelydressed guards. But that is not the reality of north korea. Find out about the reality of north korea and it is increasingly easy to do it is to go to seoul, south korea. 30,000re close to defectors from north korea. You can talk to them. They are by far the best sources of what it is like to live in that country, and how difficult it is to get out. 60 former camp inmates and former guards in total who have been interviewed by human Rights Groups, who have given detailed and new wants and credible pictures of what goes on in the camps. Their words have been supplemented by increasingly detailed satellite imagery of the camps. People, and million there are two different universes. Is the 11th largest economy in the world. People are obsessed with education. They work really hard. They have less leisure than any other country in the developed suicidend they commit at a very, very high rate. The highest rate in the world, in fact. It is a high achievement, education obsessed culture that does not Pay Attention to north korea in the cultural aspirational sense. It deals with north korea because it must, as a troublemaking neighbor. We lost 50,000 americans in the korean war back in the early 1950s. And was that war about, what was south korea then compared with north korea . Harden both were poor, and recovering from the ravages of world war ii. The United States divided the peninsula in the wake of world war ii between north and south. The south was sort of a military dictatorship aligned with the United States. Was a military dictatorship aligned mostly with russia. Was the leader who emerged in north korea, and he created a cult of personality around himself. He modeled his state after stalins state. Then, he invaded south korea in 1951. He made Real Progress across south korea. There was a counterattack by u. S. Led forces, and over the course of three years they fought to a stalemate. Returned, andwas north korea and south korea were divided ever since. Remain aligned with china and russia, but it developed a brand of totalitarian leadership that andme increasingly isolated increasingly cruel as time went on. Kim ilsung was a popular leader who had real grassroots support from lots of North Koreans. When he died in 1994, people genuinely wept. Son, the first hereditary dictator in a communist state, kim jongil, was less popular. He did not have the popular touch. But, he was shrewd. And, he was cruel. The camp as an instrument of enforcement, and that became increasingly important as the population grew. There are indications now with this third leader, kim jong un, who is interestingly about the same age as the hero he it is unclear how popular he would be. This book has on the cover picture of this young man. Who is he . From then he escaped cap in two thousand five. As far as we know, he is the only individual on earth born in those camps to get out and tell what it is like to grow up in them. Where did you get the idea to do this . Harden i interviewed him in 2008. Incredibly in an remote reaction from readers. They wanted to learn more about the camps. He wanted to give him money and save his soul. I went back a few weeks after the piece came out and i said, look, lets do a book. Lets dig into everything you know about that camp, and what it was like to walk across north korea. He did not trust me, and he did not want to do it. So i begged him for nine months, and human Rights Groups who had become familiar with his story said, you know, you should cooperate because this would fulfill your goals about making people aware of what is going on in these camps. It might also create governmental pressure in the United States for the human rights agenda on north korea. You made an arrangement with him about the money. Mr. Harden we split the money evenly. He doesnt have any. And he really does not have any business, other than being a survivor of this camp. Then, we started to work on it. Where did you get the idea that he even had a story to tell . Den a friend of mine who has become a really close friend , she met my wife at a book group and told her about this guy. And then i talked to him. That resulted in the newspaper story. How did you deal with the language . Arden i dont speak korean, and he doesnt speak anything other than korean. I had a series of translators. We did interviewers insole we ,id more interviews in seoul interviews in seattle, and hundreds of emails. I want to show this picture of you in front of the Louis Vuitton store in seoul. Harden this was one of our interviews here how tall are you . En i am about 61. He is about 56. He is stunted from l nutrition. His arms are bowed from childhood labor. Most of the male population in north korea is stunted from malnutrition. Males, to south korea, and now there are about 30,000 of them, according to the south korean government more than five their souther than korean contemporaries. That is an amazing statement about the state of nutrition and north korea. Where is he today . Mr. Harden he moved about six or seven months from the United States back to south korea. He is doing webcasting with human rights friends, and he invites other defect or friends to come on and talk about north korea. So the transition was expensive . Rden no, it was not that expensive. They care about his story and want to get it out. Translatorlly good who work for the washington the most important translator was a young guy named david kim. In family befriended shin Southern California when he was living in torrance, which is a suburb of los angeles. David offered to be a translator. He is a yale graduate. Incredibly smart and multilingual in idiomatic american english, as well as speaking korean with his parents, who do not speak much english. So he did all of the translating in Southern California, which is where i did the bulk of the reporting, and where shin this is taken from the group house in torrance, california, where he was working for a group called liberty of north korea, which is a Human Rights Group him to thed bring United States in 2009, and where he was an unpaid violent tear. Unpaid volunteer. They gave him group housing. 25 people lived in that house, mostly people younger than him. How old is he today . He is 29. Youve got a lot of torture stories in this book. This is out of context, but so people can understand how far it went with him, the story of him being put over the flame. When he was 13 years old, he was taken to an underground prison. I will explain the context for this later. He was taken to an underground prison and asked about the escape plans of his father and mother. He didnt have good answers. Afraid, very confused. And at one point in the underground prison, he was taken into a room that looked like a machine shop. Hung upsideped and down in a kind of u, with his back hanging down. A court was brought in cart was brought in which a coal fire. The bellows came. The coals were rolled under his body, and he was burned as they asked him questions. And he passed out. What are the extent of his injuries . They are still visible. Terrible burns on his lower back and buttocks, a most severe burn you would get from being held over a fire. He has other marks on his body from other events. Has the middle finger of his right hand is cut off at the first knuckle. When he was 22, 23, he was working in a military uniform camp. He was working with a crew of seamstresses. He dropped a sewing machine. They got real mad, because sewing machines were valuable, maybe more valuable than the human beings who 16. They hacked off part of his finger as punishment. Right there . Almost immediately. He has scarring on his legs from when he was hung upside down as part of the torture to get him to talk about the escape of his mother and brother. When he escaped the camp, he crawled through a highvoltage fence. Came into contact with the lowest strand, and it burns his knees on both legs. This scars are really horrible. You are talking about when he escaped that camp and went to china. That was 2005. How did he get into this camp in the first place . He was born there. Born. Ime was to be his parents were there for reasons that are almost as flimsy. His father was in the camp because his fathers brothers after the korean war had fled to south korea. After the authorities had heard about that, his father and his fathers many brothers and parents were rounded up and taken to camp 14. That is where shin was born. Know why his mother was there. She never told him, and he never asked. They do not have the kind of relationship where they would talk. Mom and aunt conceived him becauseeived they were chosen by the guards for something called a reward marriage, and shin was bred in the camp like a farm animal and his mother. His mother. He was physically his mother gave birth to him, but he was and rulesh the values of the guards, and was not close to his mother at all. He had to memorize 10 rules of the camp, most of which end by saying if you dont do this, you will be shocked immediately. The most Important Role is, if you try to escape, you will be shot immediately. The corollary is if you hear escape and dont report it, you will be shot immediately. These were his 10 commandments as a little guy growing up in that escape and dont camp. Let me read the rest of those 10 quickly, so that people can understand. Will best all have shot immediately if they are caught doing this. No more than two prisoners can meet together. Third one, do not steal. Fourth, guards must be obeyed conditionally. Were they really shot immediately . They were shot often. Shin was one of the only forms of entertainment camp. The only time people would get together to watch something was an execution. The rules were taken very seriously, particularly by the kids who saw the results of disobedience very clearly. Was the first execution that shin saw . It was the one that begins the book when he was four years old. How does he remember anything from being four . I said, what is your first memory . He said, i remember going with a with a crowd of people and he was very excited because it was the first time he was around a lot of people. That was one of the rules of the camp. That is what triggers his memory. He never been around a crowd of people. Ububad never heard this h of people being together in a crowd of many thousands of prisoners. What is the business of putting marbles in their mouth when they are shocked . That is a very common practice. I talked to three others who saw this happen. They do that so that people do not denounce the guards, or particularly the leadership of the country. They cant say anything. Its rocks, actually. Rocks . And they put a hood on them . Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont. What did he see with the death of his parents and his brother . The real heart of this book, and the psychological trauma of the rest of his life comes out of the escape plan of his mother and brother. Was living in, he a boarding school, which was all kids leave their parents at 12 and go to live with other kids in the boarding school. In the camp. This was a couple blocks from where his mom was staying. Shin had been in the boarding school for a while. On friday night, his teacher, a guard who wore a gun, told him you can stay with your mom tonight. Shin did not want to because he did not particularly like his mom. But he did because he was told to. His brother was at the house, which was unusual because he also lived at the home. He lived in a concrete factory. His brother was eight years older than he was. Shin hardly knew his brother. He knew who he was, but they had no relationship. They had supper. The only meal he had ever even in his life, which was salt, corn, and cabbage. That was breakfast, lunch, and dinner. They put salt in cabbage soup and corn. It is a kind of gruel. That is the primary thing. Other than small animals they could catch in the camp, like mice and rats. This was that classic mela. Classic meal. He went to sleep. The house had a central kitchen and one bedroom. The central kitchen was for 3 other units besides the one where his mother slept. He was awoken by a conversation by his brother and mother about midnight. He heard them talking, and he crawled and also saw his mother was cooking rice for his brother. Rice is something that hardly exist at all in the camp, but it is grown there, so some farmworkers can steal it. So she must have stolen some overtime and was making rice. She never made rice for him. He was really jealous. He was 13 years old. That piqued his interest. Then he heard them talking. You have to understand his brother was in some kind of trouble in the camp. He apparently violated a rule and had left the concrete factory without permission. Guards would soon come for him and punish him. Probably not execute him, but beat him up, which was the common way. Shin heard his brother mentioned the word escape. Pound. Heart started to he became very very upset and afraid because of these rules. If you dont report pound. H an escape, he will be executed. Then he heard his mother countenancing that conversation about escape. Shin listened for a while. It was clear they were talking about trying to escape the plant, and the rice she was cooking was food for flight, after he had gotten out of the camp. Shin got up, told his mom he had to go to the bathroom, and went out and found a guard and reported them. First he went to a classmate. They went together. When he reported this escape, he was thinking, how can i turn this to my a guard and reported them. First he went to a classmate. Advantage . So he asked the guard if he could have more food as a result of his snitching, and if he could be made class leader, a position that would allow him to do less work, take fewer food as, and maybe dmore well. The guard said sure. Shin went to bed in the school where he lived. The next morning he was awakened, told there were guards waiting for him. They put a blindfold on him him in the school, put thisp and drove him to underground prison inside the camp, which he did not know until then had existed. He was interrogated. He went, thinking they would see him as a good snitch, so they started asking him questions about his involvement in the escape. He was frightened and confused and did not answer in any his first his first two rounds of interrogation, which included that torture i told you about. In the third interrogation, when he was too weak to get up because he was burned so badly. He said, i did a good job, i turned in my mother. You can check this out with my classmate. They did check it out. Shin was allowed to recover in that underground prison. Then he was taken out after seven months. He was taken back to the same officers who had originally interrogated him. He saw his father was in the camp. His father had also been tortured, and looked horrible when he saw him. N brokeners leg had bee in the torture, and he could hardly walk. They were both taken together in that jeep with blindfolds on back to the execution grounds, the place he remembers from when he was four. Shin had his blindfold taken off and said, oh, they are going to kill me now. He was terrified he was going to be shot. They took his father, helped him and shin to the front of the room. Then they drank up they dragged up his mom and brother. When his mom came out, she was put on a makeshift gallows right in front of him. She was not blindfolded. She tried to catch shins eye. He hated her for the horrors hed just gone through in this underground prison, and for her reckless talk of escape. He refused to catch her eye, and she was hanged in front of him. And then his brother was shot in the head three times by the guard. Shin went back into the camp population as a 14yearold. His father lost his good job as a slave operator. Shin had a very strained relationship after this execution. His father tried to say, i am as to being so selfish to having children in this camp. I hope somehow you can get out of here. Shin said, i dont care what you say. He rarely saw him. Host is he alive . Shin escaped a decade later when he was 23. Host the year he escaped . Was 2005. Host and how did he escape . The escape is really a very important part of the book. One thing i want to say about the experience of the execution is that shin was raised in such a way that he did not really love his mother. He did not have feelings of affection, trust towards his father or his brother. I first asked him about those things. How could you hate your mother . How could you not look her in the eye when she died . He said, these people were competitors with me for food. They did nothing for me that was useful, as he saw it. Host what about god . Hed never heard of god. This was a concept he heard about when he got to south korea. Learning how to trust other people, and learning to feel guilty for what he did with his mother is something that he has had to do since he got to south korea and the United States. He has seen other families. He has seen other mothers and sons together. He has begun to feel terribly guilty about the kind of boy he was and what he did. Then he wasnt guilty. Know what happened to his father . No. He know what assumes his fatherr killed as a result of his escape. Host i knew this is a book people should read from your perspective, and i dont want you to have to go into every detail. Killed as a result of his escape. Escape into china was difficult for him . In what way . You say it has never happened before that someone born in the camp escaped it. That should give you a good indication this cant has existed since 1958. Camp has existed since 1958. No one has escaped it since shin in 2005. It is really damn hard to get out of there. Someonet because he met who inspired him to think of the outside world. This is shins birth as a human being. He was working in the camp in this sewing machine factory, when he was assigned to work with an older guy in his early 40s. His name was park. Park had lived in pyongyang. He had traveled and an educated in the former soviet union. He was a worldly and nice guy. Tos job shins job was snitch on him. He had proved himself over the years with his parents and many other people. Shin started talking to park about the world. Shin was interested in hearing these stories. Parkpark started talking about something that shin was really interested in, which was food. Park likes to eat, and he talked about the joys and wonders of grilled meat in china. You could get grilled chicken, beef, pork, and you could eat and you dide full, not have to be rich more important. That is just how people lived outside this fence. That was a revelation that shin could not get out of his imagination. He dreams about it. He fantasized about eating well. Park told him many other things him, that the to world was round, that china existed, that south korea existed, that the United States existed, that the leaders in north him, that the world was korea where a bunch of thieves and thugs. None of that was very interesting to shin, because he had no context for understanding that. His context was he has been hungry his home life, and if he could get out of this cage, he could eat. Descent that was enough for him. No context for understanding that. His context that was enough f. Host camp 14 is how far from the chinese border . About 50 miles just north of pyongyang, in the mountains of central north korea. Host what was the camp surrounded with, what kind of fence . It was a barbed wire fence between 8 and 10 barbed wire lines, electrocuted. This is not the kind where a cow touches it and jumps. It is the kind that you touch it, it will grab you and kill you. Shin heard about grilled dates in china. He said to park, lets try to escape. Park was ok with that idea. He said they would try. He met park two months before he decided to escape. Shin got very excited. They were very lucky in their escape planning, because they were assigned on the first of the year to go up to a site of not near the was guard towers, where they could shot people running for the fence. Th shot people running for the fence. They waited until Late Afternoon on january 2, 2005, til dusk, gloaming light. They ran towards the sense. The fence. When shin decided to go, he said, lets go. Park said, im not so sure. Shin grabbed his hand and pulle dhim towards the fence. As they ran, shin slipped and fell in the snow. It was cold in the middle of the winter. Park shoved his torso between the first and second strands of wire and was electrocuted, and fell dead on the fence. He pulled the bottom strand down. Without a moments hesitation, shin crawled over his body and got most of the way across that fence. His leg slipped on both sides, and he got terrible burns from the voltage. I talked to an expert on electrocution, who deals with power lines around the hydro dams of the pacific northwest. This scenario, which struck me as pretty odd and not believable he said this is completely believable that this would happen. This is the only way. He needed that insulator grounding the voltage to the ground so that he could get through the fence without taking a lethal charge. Host good chance he would have been electrocuted himself. He was lucky to get through the fence, but it is not like winning the lottery. It is something conceivable to do, according to experts. He got through the fence. The plan was for shin to be mr. Inside, to get to the fence. Mr. I got to the fence, park, who grew up outside in the he was supposed to be mr. Outside. He was supposed to be mr. Outside. He was supposed to take them to china. He had an uncle there, and would arrange for their shipment to south korea. Host i will not detail it, because there is plenty to read. After he got out of prison, how long did it take to get him to china and south korea . It took him a it took him a moo south korea. A month of walking, riding in tr ucks. It took him a month to get to south korea. A month of walking, riding in tr ucks. He hopped a train. One of the things that is interesting abouthost i will ny across north korea, a Totalitarian Police state, with a kid that did not know which way was north, it really was an incredibly lucky trip he made. Shin had a couple things at his advantage. He was very smart. He was very smart. He had this cunning sense of self survival. And he also was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. He did not tell anyone he was from a camp. A few hours after he got through a fence, he got to an old barn. He found some military clothes. This was in north korea, just outside the camp. North korea is the most militarized society on earth, with a million man army. Host 23 million. Is 1. 2 Million People. He found a military uniform, a change of clothes, so he was no longer trust like dressed like a camp inmate. Distinctive clothes. He then walked into a town. He looked like a lot of North Koreans. He was skinny. He was filthy. He was wearing an old military uniform, and he did not have much to do. There were a lot of Unemployed People in the wake of the great famine in 1990. North korea at the lowest level is a very disorganized place, where the Food Distribution he was wearing ansystem is very. It depends on smugglers from food frommers selling cooperative farms when they are not supposed to. The north korean government has no choice but to put up this messy informal market system, because it is the only way people can eat. There are estimates 80 to 90 of the calories in any North Koreans stomach comes from this system. Shin fell into this system. It was in a few days he broke into a house, stole warmer clothes, and a big bag of rice. I think it was a 10 pound bag of rice, which he put in a backpack that he also stole. He walked past a market, and the market lady said, what do you have in the bag, boy . He said rice, and she would give him money for it. Had told him only weeks before that money existed. He got snacks, walked out of town, and saw other traders moving north towards china to do some trading. He fell in with them, and that was his route out of china. Go to hell you put this back together. How many hours did you talk to t this back together. How many hours did you talk to shin . I am not sure how many hours. I think we had seven sessions of interviews. Wereof those sessions weeklong sessions, where we would start in the morning and end in the Late Afternoon. Host were weeklong sessions, where we would start in the morning and end in the Late Afternoon. Host how did you document it . The interviews . I recorded it all. Audio only. Theso took notes on computer simultaneously. There is a question of verifying mr. Shins were story. Host you say he lied to you. He lied to me about his role in the training his mother. When he got to south korea, he did not say he betrayed his mother. He said she got executed and he saw it. He thought if he told that story, the south korean government might arrest him, and certainly other people would think of him as not human. Those are his words. He decided he would expurgate his story a little bit. Year into, about a our interviews, decided he would tell me the truth. He said the reason he did it is because he was surrounded by people who told him that, and he felt an obligation to tell the truth. Host when you see that photo of him, what do you see in his face . Is just an about his face is that he looks so young, given the hardships of his life. He has aged a little bit. His age now . This was taken when he was 28 or 27. When i not him place where he looked likewear he a teenager. Host how has he changed since you started talking to him . He has become less war less suspiciousy, and a little bit more at peace with himself. He has told the truth of the betrayal of his mother. Yesterday we were talking at a human rights convention. And he talked about selling out mother, and why he did it, and what he hopes will come out of the truth. He once people to know wants people to know these are the types people to know these are the types of human beings they are raising in the camps. People to know these are the types of human beings they are raising in the camps. There is the issue of shooting people, but there is the issue of raising people to the little monsters. Because he dide not want to talk about all this stuff. Journalists just want to keep drilling. I say in the book it was like going to the dentist and not using anesthetics. Andtimes he would say no leave. Host why do you think the American People would be interested in this book . The reason people would be interested in this book is because it is a great story. Story. N adventure it is also a psychological story, because it is how a person goes from having emotions andiguring out a good idea developing it. The normal trajectory of the stage stores, or of concentration camp stories, is that you have someone that comes from a sophisticated civilized family. They are taken to the camp. All of their other relatives are killed. They have to behave in an inhuman way to survive. They come out and tell their descent into hell and survival. Shins story is completely different because he was born in and thought it was home, and thought the values he learned there was what it was to be a human being, and now what it means to be acovered human being is completely different. Host why to the south koreans not care about the North Koreans . They have moved on as a culture and economy. Are for are fors greater individual wealth, for technological achievement. Korea, which exists in some ways in the middle ages, is a deadly on those goals. Is a dead weight on those goals. Most of the family ties between north and south have been attenuated by time and weakened by korea, which exists in some age. Most people that have living relatives are in their 60s and 80s. The actual connections are falling apart. Host iran into a german the other day, how is it going in your country . I said, how about germany . Said, they are doing very well. I wonder how much it cost the west germans. I wonder how it will affect the north Korean People. They are very worried. There are estimates about the cost. There are estimates it could int three times as much dollars to have unification with the north, because of development problems. If you fly over the north Korean Peninsula at night, china is light. You can see japan off to the in dollars to have unification with right. It is just dark in north korea. That darkness is a good example of the stage of development. Nono roads. Education system has largely collapsed. The factories dont work. The place is a basket case run by a militarized state that survives because of aid from china and the sales of missiles to places like iran. Up next on our special program looking at north korea, remarks by a Young Refugee who escaped north korea at the age of 14. He spoke at an event hosted by the Hudson Institute in 2012. A reminder, you can watch all of the events featured on this program on our website, cspan. Org. I was born and raised in north korea until i was 16. Although my family constantly fought against poverty, i was loved and cared for first, because i was the only son and youngest in the family. However that luxury was not a resort for me forever. When i was 13, my mother died of starvation, and my older sister went to china for money. But she never returned. I became a orphaned. It was a huge transition where i had to grow up overnight. Jobs othernot many than taking on the street tirelessly. Begging on the street tirelessly. I live like an animal. My life was very simple, but very hard. My i did not have hope for the future. I did not have ambition. My only goal was to be full. For hungry and tired, politics and freedom are not relevant. After years of waiting for my sisters return, i finally decided to leave north korea. It was the biggest decision i had to make. First, it was risky. After all, it was still my country where i have friends from, preschool to elementary school. It is still the place where i grew up with all kinds of memories, where i swam and where i played soccer with myit is sti grew friends. My escape was very successful. I am thankful that god protected me during that time. While in china, i encountered link. At that time, the executive director. Because of their hard work, i was able to come to america successfully. My life has been changed. My perspective of the world has been changed after i came to america. I dont starve anymore. More importantly, i live like a human being. I do have goals, and i have dreams, and i have hopes. My life in america is close to heaven. My dream is one day that all North Koreans will experience the life that i have now. It is a big dream. I might be aiming for an intangible goal. I can do so little, but with unity, we will make this possible. When i was 12 years old, my little sister and i went to the mountains to collect wool to cook and to warm the house. My father could not join us. He stayed home because his strength was weakened from malnutrition. We left at 5 00 a. M. Home, it wasned already midnight. We had to bring the wood by hnad. By the home, it was already time me and my sister hd finished collecting wood, it was already midnight. It was already dark. We were exhausted. I was afraid we could not make it home. Aw my father walking towards us out of the dark. Aw my father walking towards us out of the dark. I was so happy he was with me, although he could not do much due to his weakness. Because my father was with us, our journey home seemed so much shorter. Is there anyone who doubts that you are too weak to do anything, my answer is no, you are not. You never were. My father was not strong, nor did he have magic powers. Us, myfact she was with journey from mountain to home was chosen. To bring change to north korean human rights, you dont have to be strong for special. It is ok if you cant support financially, and it is ok if you cant invest all of your life, and it is ok if you cant think of ideas. Please, do all you can do. If you can only pray to please, pray for them. If you can only cry, cry for them. But please dont forget my friends, those who are orphans. Even at this moment, they are tirelessly waiting for help. I hope and i believe the escape from north korea will be used as riveridge to connect the from north korea to china, and eventually bring all of my friends to freedom of the land. Thank you so much for coming out to listen to my story and our story. Thank you so much. [applause] chinan i met joseph in years ago, he did not speak a word of english. This is extremely impressive. I dont think he needed that speech class as badly as he thinks he did. When joseph first got to the United States, i purchased some books for him. I figured he had a lifetime of poor education or propaganda. I figured he might want to know the real story how korea got to where it was. We got him a bunch of history books in korean. I asked him what books he might request. He asked me for shakespeare, which was very strange. Turns out he had heard of shakespeare before he had actually left north korea. The next day, i asked him if he read the books. He said to fully digest a book he had to read it three times. I think that speaks a lot to josephs intellect and the extraordinary nature of his story. One challenge i have when speaking about north korea is i run adjectives i run out of adjectives describing how bad things are you all halfmillion. It is easy for us to write off bad things, because we assume they happen over there. The challenge with north korea is that things are so bad on such a scope and scale that it sounds fake. It sounds like a lie. Or it sounds unfathomable. It is hard to comprehend. North korea is all of the things the panelists have talked about and more. If we want to bullet point Human Rights Violations, we would be here for hours. That is the challenge those of us have had when trying to articulate what the circumstances are like there. I will point out a few things so we can have the framework. The risks they take to get out of that situation. They put their life into their own hands and just as when i first met joseph, he was very young. We may wonder if he was fully aware of his decision to leave. Shelter in china, you are well aware you could be called on the way caught on the way and tortured and killed. Whenever you are escaping from has to be extraordinarily bad, far worse than what you are facing. North korea is that bad. When the government had access to food and was able to feed its own people and did not. North korean government it is not there in order to facilitate the wellbeing of its people, but the wellbeing of 2000 or 3000 elites. Particularly one family with the last name kim. Regularly, that you u. N. Issuest emergency calls for aid, and north korea continues to spend 4 billion on Nuclear Tests when its people are starting. That shows you priorities of the country. You get into massive human rights violation, getting arrested for listening to a pop that put down a glass of water where the condensation covered the dear leaders face. When i was in chinese hospitality in 2006, he head of that prison was ethnically korean. Korean. Ed to speak we talked quite a bit. Nothing subversive. He was not going to get in trouble. One thing they shared was may have North Koreans overtime in prison. All the time in prison. He told me the young boys in ,articular would always beg him can you cut my hair . The reason they ask for that is north korea has rules about how long your hair is for males and females. If it is at a certain length, that means you have been out of the country. If the hair is cut, the kids had a shot at saying, i got lost, i was not there for six months. Anyone involved in any way with north korea knows what is happening. The illusion is in the sense that we cant solve it. Illusion is that we think this is an inevitable crisis, that we have no right or ability to do anything about it. I think north korea is not just an issue or human rights. It is a most this blackhole in modern civilization. If you have some connection to korea or not, it is a huge problem for the reformation, conventional weapons, statesponsored terrorism. Is astonishing this is not a huge issue in the president ial election, where you have a Nuclear Armed state. This is a big deal we keep pushing under th eurg. The rug. I think there will be one day when north korea is free. That day will come. Most involved in government and policy positions will realize there is more we could have done. This is much different from the holocaust. We have documentable, verifiable evidence that is overwhelming. There was evidence during the holocaust that policymakers did not act upon. Today everyone watching this online or cspan can google and find concentration camps. Joseph sat on google and showed me the route he took from school to home every day. We have overwhelming evidence of what is happening. There is no excuse in terms of ignorance. When you look at what the republic of korea has accomplished, the korean soul when it is unchanged can do amazing things. It is incredible. Look at what korean americans have accomplished in america. North korea has never gotten that freedom. For North Koreans, they are still stuck in a 20th century. We have a special responsibility to try and fix it. When joseph came to the United States after being in china and we took him to a grocery store, just to buy snacks. I dont know if he remembers this, but his jaw dropped when he went to the finals. 50 types of yogurt and serial. And cereal. He had his first strawberry. To explain what a strawberry was was amazing. We took him to the zoo. They had a diorama of dinosaurs. I had such difficulty explaining what one was when there is no context. You take that level of education and isolation from the i sound world, from the outside and you can imagine a nation that is crippled. Entire generations of children that are physically stunted, but also braindamaged because they have not had proper food for the first five years of their life. North korea is not just a problem for koreans, for human rights, it is a problem for everybody. We have a special responsibility to wait in on the state of those people. I would share the perspective of having sanctions and approaches that have had Measurable Results with north korea. We have had feedback from sources within the country that those things are working extremely effectively. This is not a problem that will go away. At some point, those people will be free. How manyion mark is, people will have to die to get to that point . There is no question at all it will end in a big way, end it will be the issue for everyone to deal with. Punk rock singer, actor, and author Henry Rollins published a photo book in 2011 titled occupants, featuring images from a trip to north korea. Mr. Rollins talks about the journey and talks about his photographs at an event hosted by the National Geographic society. Overlook, its pyongyang, north korea. It took me about two years to get this visa. They let about 100 or less americans per year into north america. I got in in time for the games. This is the famous room where the north and the south meet. That backdoor is south korea. My back is to north korea. I am there with tourist spies, a fuel regions a few norwegians. They are making noise, trying to photos of the photos of the so. I said you are screwing up my alone in north korea vibe. I sat in those chairs, and everyone left. Sudden sudden i am alone with this guy, who became furious. He raised his hand, get out i took that photo, and bolted out of the door. I was thinking, if i can get this shot out of the country, i am going to have a slideshow one day. [laughter] as you know with the camera, you want to get the fstop ri ght, and all of a sudden you get. Michael jordan shot clock situation. Even a guy like me stumbled into a shot like that. On the outside of that wall, there are american soldiers basically playing peekaboo. There are soldiers behind that in a triangular shape. One guy they can yank back if americans start firing bullets. It is so grim, this stare down. What is this, 3 00 p. M. . After third grade they should put get it overes and with. The largest stadium in the world in pyongyang, north korea. It is not a large Television Screen you see. That is thousands of school kids holding up colored cards. The do this in perfect synchronization for minutes. Every 90 minutes, thousands of people in brightly colored another they leave, and 1000 people come out. Onis like Cirque Du Soleil growth hormones. Unfortunately nobody has money to go see it. You could park three soccer stadiums in this place. It is as big as long beach, california. We have the unfortunately noboy to go see it. You could1. 25 seats, and there are locals going in for 0. 10 cents in the nosebleed seats. There is nobody around while these people are running in perfect harmony. They do six shows a week for months, and nobody gets to see it. They insist on having the biggest stadium. My tour guide said, that is our arch of triumph. He said, it is bigger than the one in frace. I said, yay. [laughter] few days later i went to see kim ilsung in the glass box. We were looking upon kim ilsung square, which is as big as new york. The tour guide said, this is bigger than Tiananmen Square. I am going to have fun. I said kim, i believe Tiananmen Square is a little bit bigger. Hes i saidlike, no. He knows exactly down to the edge how much bigger kim ilsung square is. Said, i walked the square. Walked the square. I said, i want the sepcs on it because it is cute and i want to build one. He sulked. Alone ie only moment had in north korea. He walked back to the car with a throat, mine is bigger. Men have a lot of work to do. Sorry throat, ladies, there is e of me. This is the games here. It is incredible. This went on for 90 minutes. I went from my illsmelling stalinist room. They keep all of the tourists in the same room. You are woken up at 4 00 in the morning by a woman yelling through a bullhorn. I ask kim, what is the yelling and the music . They are building a building across the river. The woman is yelling things to inspire the men to build. It is 5 00 a. M. , there is no coffee, and there is a woman faster, you bastard build it robbed me of sleep the entire time i was there. You buy flowers. You put them in front of the statue of kimyou put them in fre statue of kim ilsung. You bow, as long as the tour guide bows. He would always thank me for bowing to the great leader. Jongun does not get many statues. They give him a lot of paintings. Sometimes, they paint the lif jy ters on his shoes in. Sometimes they leave him out. Kim jongil got the backhand of mother nature. In these paintings, he has these big forums, and he is always hanging out with a soldier. Upsas these fists liek trucks come and he is doing something powerful. In real life, he is this guy with amazing dress sense and crazy hair. Everywhere you look, there are statues of kim ilsung and paintings of kim jongil. The final portion of our Program Features victor cha, serving on the National Security council during the george w. Bush administration. Mr. Cha is considered to be the next ambassador to south korea. He appeared on cspans afterwards program to discuss his new book the impossible state north korea, past and future. The thesis of the book is that north korea is the impossible state because no one inside is empowered to overthrow it, and no one on the outside cares enough to change it. I want to ask you about both of those. No one is empowered to overthrow why do you think that is the case in northno one is empowerew why do you think that is the case in north korea. Especially from a comparative politics perspective, this makes north korea anno outlier compard to the soviet union. I think that observation is quite accurate. When we look at the soviet union, regimes in the arab spring, all of which had leaders in power longer than the former recently deceased north korean leader. They have all collapsed, and north korea continues to survive. That alone shows no one within the system has power to overthrow it. As you know well, the very strict controls that exist in this country, it is a to use the term strong state would be an understatement. Even the way people think. For that reason, it is difficult are could that they be a group within this society that could speak out, that could. Hallenge that view it just doesnt happen in north korea. That is why it has lasted for this long, i think, because in spite of a lot of its problems, economic problems, human rights, food, it has lasted this long. That is because no one within the system is capable of changing it. There are potential forces for change going on inside north korea. Information flows. You talk about enforced you talk about information flows. It is maybe post utilitarian, but we are not within organized opposition. How long do you think it will take to see an evolution of politics in north korea where it is possible . Mr. Cha it is a good question. As political scientists we supposed to be able to determine when these things are supposed to happen, but i dont think we can. Witht think we can say any degree of accuracy what the Tipping Point in terms of when upiety is ready to act rather than simply be, follow the rules of the current political system. In the case of north korea, in the book i talk about the element that i think is new in this picture, which is the growing markets in the country, really starting from the famine of the 1990s, in which people basically had to sell whatever they could find, a cup, a, for food. That was the start of a market system. That has been going on for 15 years. We can say there is an element that was not been in the past. It has created more of an independence of mind by the people in north korea and not being solely reliant on handouts from the government, but when exactly that will reach a point where the system will tip, it is hard to say. Mr. Snyder how do you think the state is adapting to those changes . Mr. Cha part of the way they are adapting is they are trying to crack down, certainly on the unofficial markets and some of the official markets. There have been efforts that were what you might call reform in north korea. Been aimed atgely bringing hard currency into help their regime, not so much to create real market reform in the country. Are seeingt what we now, if we do see efforts of Economic Engagement with the outside world, the north korean leadership is doing this because they seek hard currency, not because they are seeking necessarily to create a better life for their people. Mr. Snyder in what ways do you think pockets of protests could emerge, or do you think it is going to be a case where anything that happens is going to be stamped out . Possibility for the elites tolerating certain forms of dissent . Mr. Cha it is hard to imagine that. The question as to whether you can, you know, at which point we either toleration of dissent or the emergence of dissent. As social scientists, we cant predict that. What we can do is we can point to certain preconditions that exist. The market mentality is one of the things. It is very hard to say. There is not a lot of evidence that this regime is tolerant of any sort of dissent. There is not a lot of evidence that they have tried to listen to what the content of whatever protests have taken place. Of course, it goes without saying that this is a country that it is very hard to get any information on what is happening inside the country. When we talk about dissent or protest, we hear anecdotes, stories of things that might reallyppened, but we. Ont know it is such a her medically sealed country. When the day comes when it opens falls andt collapses, you see unification, i think we will learn a lot about what sort of political dissent political dissent existed in the country. Mr. Snyder do you see their regime has really rigid, and therefore more likely to crack, or do you think it is flexible in the sense that, despite , howdible global changes should we evaluate the character in order to have a sense of what might come later on . Is if youink it post that spectrum, it is more on the brittle end of the spectrum. It regime that will crack rather than one that is malleable and has managed. The reason it is been able to want through is because of the. Econd factor we talked about it has managed to model through not because of anything to of whathrough because is happening outside of north korea. That is this dynamic where nobody really wants to put in the effort to change it or solve is oneblem, and there country in particular that wants to in short they are no big to ensure that are no big changes within the country. Mr. Snyder that is the second part of your observation about north korea as an impossible state. Nobody cares to risk changing it. That is quite striking when we look at the history, especially of how Human Rights Concerns intervention and many other parts of the world. Korea hasnt north been subject to that same international activism, despite , arguably, the humans rights conditions are just as bad. How is it that this is the case . What makes north korea immune to that focus of the International Community . Mr. Cha when we say International Community, we have to be clear what we mean. We mean the developed west. Issues thatrtain the developed west has taken up in terms of human rights. You mentioned some of them. They have taken up these causes. There are others, sudan, tibet, others that have been taken up to a great extent by the International Community. North north korea is not one of these. Through very successful efforts by the north korean regime to that this remains a nameless and faceless policy issue. Not a personal story, a personification of a story that the average american will somehow be influenced by or take up a calls for. Or take up a cause for. Menino many North Koreans are sent back. There is nobody that could associate a name or a face with this terrible human rights situation in north korea. By example, south korea, during , hadilitary dictatorship this person who eventually won the nobel peace prize. He became a voice, a face for democratic activism in south korea. Korea, youin south have these personalities that can be identified with the problem. The North Koreans have been very good with not allowing that to happen. The chinese have been complicit in that. That is one of the reasons. Think is that it just hasnt captured the imagination of some major personality in the west. Catchy,his may sound but practically i think it is true. When some of you like richard gere takes up to that or meera faro takes up chinas policies somethingr, this is you wouldnt normally see. In north korea, we havent had that. We havent had an individual that does that. One of the things we are seeing more of, and there are stories of this in the book, americans are learning more about the stories of some of these defectors that are getting out of north korea. There have been several books written recently about defectors who have left, managed to escape, telling their stories. I think that helps, but still, compared to other cases of human rights, we just dont see the same with regard to the issue. Mr. Snyder another distinctive feature of north korea that could have an impact on human rights observations by the International Community is north korea has been trying to become a Nuclear Weapons state. That is particularly interesting when we look at iraq. You were in the Bush Administration for part of the time this issue was playing out. It turns out that we decided to and overthrow Saddam Hussein. He didnt have north he didnt have Nuclear Weapons. Decided not to pursue that course of action with north korea. Have you see the difference how do you see the difference . Mr. Cha it is a tough question to answer. Without recounting the whole history of why the administration went into iraq. That was not my area of responsibility. I am not really capable of commenting. In the case of north korea, there are two issues. , not why iraq instead of north korea, that is in iraq, then why not also in north korea . Two answers. The first is, you have china. China sits right on the border with north korea. The last thing United States or china once is some sort of confrontation or conflagration on the peninsula that would cause the to do but heads. To but heads. Wo this is constantly a concern that every u. S. President has had to think about seriously. That is certainly one of the reasons, the china factor. The uniteds that states went to iraq or afghanistan because it became the top foreignpolicy issue on which the administration saw to final resolution. We can debate whether that was the right or wrong thing. Many americans think it was the wrong thing. Many americans think nothing was resolved there. That is a completely different question. That int for korea is dont really think that they north korea issue has risen to that level of priority for an administration. It has been a crisis that you want to to solve, at least in the sense of preventing it from becoming a bigger crisis through diplomacy. The United States historically, when it has thought to solve a problem, it has been willing to use both force and diplomacy. Korea, ite of north is just not registered like that. We have had crises with north , and every administration has made the same calculation. When we reach a crisis with the with north korea, are we willing to go all out to the end to solve this we want a solution that will at least park it ,omentarily, freeze it, cap it and then move on to the other issues that most concern us, whether the domestic Economic Situation or iraq or afghanistan or syria . To be the more important issues, traditionally, and u. S. Foreignpolicy. Mr. Snyder the other issue that makes iraq different from north korea is the u. S. Korea i like u. S. Korea alliance. Dynamics ofee the the alliance playing into our ability to address the top concerns that the u. S. Has related to north Koreas Nuclear program . Mr. Cha when we looked at the foot at the situation on the peninsula, the alliance was more important than any policy towards north korea. South korea is a key ally for the United States today. It is a major partner in a lot of initiatives around the world. A big trading partner, all of these things make south korea extremely important to the United States in terms of its position in asia. Let me ask about north korean prospects. They are still cash hungry. Maybe we dont see any immediate evidence that the leadership has but of courseorm, the chinese are always there, suggesting that the North Koreans would follow their path. What really is the way to cultivate an environment where north korea can move in a reformed direction . It is obvious they are looking for cash, but is there a way of drawing them into a positive path rather than pursuing the negative activities . Mr. Cha the positive path that has been on the table, really i think for successive administer shins, successive administrations the Clinton Administration was different from the Obama Administration in terms of how they dealt with north korea. In the book i go through these. The package may have been different, but there is a positive path. In return for giving up their nuclear program, the United States, the International Community would provide security guarantees, economic assistance, energy assistance, political , regionalion, money security environment in which north korea could feel safe and secure, all these sorts of things in return for giving up their Nuclear Weapons. That has not worked. It has failed. For everyled administer as going back to george h. W. Bush. For every administration going back to george h. W. Bush. With the Obama Administration, we reached the end of the road for this. Even the Clinton Administration took time during their two terms. The interim . One in the most important thing that can be done is to get more korea,tion into north more information in terms of what is going on in the outside ,orld in terms of marketization in terms of cell phone. Way to makeonly. Nroads into seeing any change economic reform is a doubleedged sword. They need economic reform. They need money, food, these sorts of things. On the other hand, when the regimes like this open up, it releases all sort of Political Forces that inevitably lead to a loss of political control. Even possibly be collapse of the regime. That is the last thing they want to consider. I am not optimistic on the prospects for reform at this time. The way you framed it is very much a u. S. Way of deal. G basically a the chinese, i think, may have a different idea about what would be necessary that is not about quid pro quo. You follow us and you can find a sustainable path. That is basically the argument. Exactly beenasnt willing to dip it still in the water. How would we know if we began to see a north korean leadership that was moving in that direction . Mr. Cha i have many friends who are chinese scholars. Friends,lked to those they are always optimistic about the prospects for north korea. I never understood why. Say it is clear why they are optimistic, because they have study china and they have seen china come from where it came in the cultural revolution and the great leap forward to being the country it is today. In a big country like china, as complex and complicated as it is , certainly north korea can do that. There are two the differences here. The first is that china had their leader. He was a charismatic leader, largerthanlife figure. There is no one like that in north korea. There is an inexperienced 29yearold running the country. That is the first problem. The second problem is, the chinese said making money was ok. Giving up aeant degree of political control. For the current north korean leadership and for the for seeable future, there is nothing more important than political control. Case with to be the the current leadership. This youngopes fellow, kim jongun, who spent part of his life in switzerland in secondary school, people are hopeful he might be like the leader from china. Their recent crisis, missile tests, the failed dob Obama Administration tried to reach with north korea, i dont think there is a lot of hope right now, that he shows signs of being that leader. Maybe there is someone that is unhappy with the young leadership that has a different view on things. But we dont know. The prospects dont look good for that kind of charismatic leadership. Washington journal features published thisks past year. Join us for a live conversation with authors about their popular books. Coming up on sunday, author chris ripple. Washington journalss authors series, sunday at 8 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan, cspan. Org, and cspan radio. Tomorrow on cspan, former director of National Intelligence James Clapper on his life and career in the intelligence community. He spoke about his decades of Public Service and shared his views on current intelligence issues. When you do times have to be tough with people. Found large, but i have in my years in the business is that people want to do the right thing. They want to do the mission. They want to do it well. You just have to create an environment where that can happen. Isdership and intelligence about motivating others to use their intellect. Things one of the great from a diversity standpoint about the intelligence community. It is about you bring. Youresnt matter what ethnic group is, your gender, or sexual preference. It is your mind is what counts. You haveesting work the opportunity to engage in. That leadership laboratory, it will be in the book. I thought i would mention it, because in the context of leadership. Hasink the one factor that changed the intelligence community, the thing that has changed it more than anything else is technology. Like 9 11,ma reorganizations, which i think are overrated. Historically,y, changed the business of intelligence is technology. I say that in the context of adversary technology, what are the adversaries doing, and our own, to cope with it. On his life and career in the intelligence community, tomorrow at 6 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan. [applause] now, a discussion on national