Talk to us. Mr. Burr delighted to be here. The meal part. It didnt look like it was substantial enough, but hopefully, it will keep you from sleeping through this part of it. Mr. Sanger we are on a tight budget. Senator burr is in his third term. I havent sorted out whether you are in the dukerouting tukerooting side of the state or university of North Carolina side of the state. Mr. Burr whichever one wins. Mr. Sanger probably a good sign for what were going to be discussing for the rest of the day. He is of course chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee and for his sins, is becoming the chairman, he is no managing the most complex, the most politically charged, and i would say probably the most Important Senate investigation in at least a generation, maybe two. And its not every day that a senator gets to run an investigation where there are disclosures happening every day on the front pages of the newspapers. Theres a parallel criminal investigation under way, and when a president from his own party gets to declare on twitter every few days that the entire investigation is part of a witch hunt. So that gives you a sense. Mr. Burr nor can i remember an investigation that every news article thats written had no named sources in it. Which is a fascinating, to me, its a fascinating thing that should take Journalism Schools and turn them on their head a little bit. Mr. Sanger i think thats almost certainly true but i also think its true that the news thats been produced on this, while there have been errors along the way, we have actually seen some significant leads in the investigation broken by news organizations, whether they were Anonymous Sources or not, which has made this to be an added complexity of this entire thing. Mr. Burr wasnt a critical thing. It was a statement that will come out to for you to better understand as i talk about the complexity of an investigation like this. Certain things happen and it forces you in a certain direction and to some degree, my concern, longterm, is that if we get too accustomed to unnamed sources, that that will be the predominance of whats out there and i only ask you to look at what were going through right now with members of congress on sexual harassment. Many of which probably have every reason to be concerned and should rethink their profession and rethink decisions they make. I firmly believe that some people will be captured in this that arent guilty of something because of the way the stampede starts and it doesnt necessarily stop until innocent people are stepped on. So i use that as a relative example. Mr. Sanger an interesting one. The next hour, the senator and i will talk for about 30 minutes, then well open it up to questions from all of you. We are on the record, so there may be Anonymous Sources in this investigation but not today. So let me start, senator, with this. Just more of a historical look at this. Your committees main responsibility is oversight of the Intelligence Community. You could argue that the failure to see this coming was among the biggest intelligence failures that the United States has suffered in recent times. Theres an argument about whether we had strategic warning this was coming or whether there was tactical warning, but there were large elements of this, especially the social media part, we never heard about. I looked before you were coming, preparing for this, at the National Threat assessments you get each year. In 2007, cyber wasnt mentioned at all. It started to be mentioned, it has been number one for the past four or five years. The weaponization of Information Warfare has been many of them, interestingly enough. And of course thats part of what it is that youre doing. So start by telling us if you can, do you view this as a significant intelligence failure . How does that figure into what you plan to do with your report. Mr. Burr i dont view this as an intelligence failure, i think the intelligence we had on an ongoing basis should have required us to ask more questions and look a little deeper. Did we have an imagination wide enough to say cyber is probably the number one threat, and since technology is the tool they have chosen and default to, should we look at technology as the easiest way for them to penetrate and influence the american electorate . We should have looked no further than the news outlets control by the kremlin, rt and sputnik. And extrapolated from that that we needed to look at those avenues that reached the masses in america that are not traditional media outlets. We didnt do that. And i think as evidence is were the social media platforms caught flat footed. Im not as concerned with looking back on it and trying to understand where we should have seen the red flag and responded. I am very conscious of the fact that we need to look forward and if we can look around the corner, try to figure out how not just russia, but others will exploit the ability to create hey austin our society, to potentially influence ones views as it relates to elections , might even be a tool of nation states that want to buy interest in u. S. Companies and choose initially to use social media platforms to drive the price down before they make the acquisition. So this expands to a much greater breadth than i think any of us ever envisioned. This is not limited to just elections, its not limited to russia. It is now a tool thats available for any country potentially to use, as long as they have innovation and they have capital and we continue to export that daily. Mr. Sanger just one more on the question of whether or not there was intelligence failure or not. You sit in a lot of public hearings but you sit in far more closed hearings. If you think about the years leading up to the 2016 election, many of those hearings, especially the closed hearings, you spend an enormous amount of time on cyber capabilities, offensive and defensive. Was there any prolonged discussion of either the question of whether the russians would take techniques that they had used successfully in some cases in ukraine, in the baltics, and bring them here . And was there discussion about the social media risk . Do you remember those coming up very much prior to the election . Mr. Burr those are two distinctly different questions. I believe that the Intelligence Community as a whole saw in real time russias efforts at disinformation in the United States. The mere recognition of that has to be followed by some type of policy action and i think both the Intelligence Community and the hill were anxious for nine months of the last administration to see the leadership guidance that was needed to exercise a different policy toward individuals that carried this out. In the case of 16, we were focused significantly on russia and russias intentions as it related to our election cycle. But i could have made the same case in 2016 that this was about another nation state or multiple nation states efforts to hack our Critical Infrastructure, to steal personal data, to target the whole of usg. Cases,hink in all russias intent for the election and other nationstates targeting of all of those areas of public and private entities, we had no response. And i think the investigation will be limited to the previous administrations response or lack thereof as it related to russias intent in 2016 to our election process. But from a committee standpoint, we are very focused on what we need to do Going Forward on the whole issue of cyber. And where Technology Drives us. Mr. Sanger on the deterrent side of that, you could argue that the Obama Administration under reacted. They said they had very clear reasons for not wanting to react prior to the election. We could debate whether those were good or bad. But this wasnt the first time the russians had come in to the United States. There was a hack from the state department, the white house, the joint chiefs of staff, black energy which was inside our electric grid. And yet in most of those cases you didnt see the administration, the Intelligence Community, the state department, or the white house coming out in public and naming the russians or naming other actors, with the exception of some in north of sony in north korea, and imposing a cost for that. So do you think the administration, do you think done toohas basically little to create a price here for cyber actors in general, and might the russians have been less willing to go into the election hacks had they paid a price . Mr. Burr let me say this. I think the committees role is to assess what we did or didnt do and to make from that recommendation to hopefully how we change our policies Going Forward. So i dont think youll see in our final report us arguing one side or the other of whether we should have or shouldnt have. I think to believe that russia has changed since the cold war is just an absolute myth. How can this happen today . Its almost like Vladimir Putin is a k. G. B. Officer. [laughter] i think we believe as we change and we accept different practices that everybody else does. And as it relates to russia, they still believe, if its bad for the United States, it has to be good for us. So when you look at the magnitude of it and you say for them to go onto social media and to take two opposing groups and to set up a rally for both sides of the same issue on the same day at the same location so that the media shot that night will be the video of two groups confronting themselves and create the perception of chaos in the United States, some want to rationalize that and say, how did that impact the election . They dont care. Its projecting chaos inside the United States that provides them the vacuum to do other things. As a committee, im less concerned with what chaos they are up to. I want to limit through policy the tools they can use, and let me just say, because i said this in the public hearing, which we have had 11 of this year, and i think everybody was worried i would have none. If i could have gotten away with none, make no mistake i would have done none. But ive had 11 because there was value to what we did for the American People. And thats my threshold. If the American People can learn something that can be shared publicly then i make every attempt to try to do that. But from a standpoint of companies, companies have to take some individual responsibility for the protection of the system we allow to have in this country. And in the absence of that individual responsibility by each company, then you only leave it up to us. Now, look at the makeup of congress. Do you really want to leave Technology Decisions up to this the group that i serve with . [laughter] i mean, its 7 00 at night a lot of my colleagues are in their pajamas watching hollywood squares. So theyre not necessarily the one that you want out counseling you on the next iphone you buy. But by the same standpoint, the same education youre going through, we have to take policymakers through it. And i can only tell you this, i cant come up with a solution to end cyber. Unless i have help from Tech Companies. Because theyre the ones that are innovating in the space and let me just take a moment of personal privilege. If you think youve Seen Technology at a pace you have never dreamed, you just havent looked at the next 10 years. My dad, bless his heart, died three years ago. He was 90 years old, lived a fruitful life. The day before he died, he was still lucid and i said, dad, is there anything you regret . He was born in 1921, he served in the second world war, he listened to news on the radio , he watched news on tv , he had a cell phone and he used it before he died. He looked up at me and said, yeah, im going to die and never figure out how a fax machine works. Now to him, because of when he grew up rks he was more concerned with how it worked than what it did. And in a cell phone he could envision that somehow, some way you talk into one side and hear the voice in the other. Maybe its the can and string theory. But he never could figure out how you put a piece of paper in and on the other side you pull a piece of paper out. And i would only tell you were hung up in the United States because we always ask how it works. When david lays his phone down here, if youre over 50, you look at it and say how does it work . And if youre under 50 you look at it and say, what else will it do . Understand from policymaker standpoint, i have to bring those two generations together. Because the over 50 controls capital and the under 50 controls innovation. One without the other is no good. The unique thing about where we are, and this is why im driving the committee so hard on Tech Knowledge he and cyber and all of these issues, is that over the next 10 years, what you have seen emerge over the last 30 years will be dwarfed in comparison to what you see over the next 10 years. By 2020, you wont fill out an application for patent protection because in the year half it takes the Patent Office to approve it, your technology will be obsolete. My point is, we dont have the time to be going through discussions we have today about what are we going to do to russia, what are we going to do to china, what are we going to do to this . Their level of innovation will be on the same pace if not greater, than ours. If anything, our architecture of government slows down the deployment of technology in this country where they have no architectural impediments to rolling out technology, whether thats in the military complex that they have or whether its in the private sector complex. They compete just like that. Weve got a tremendous amount of selfimposed impediments that will stand in our way from us fully deploying technology. That will put us as a distinct disadvantage, i think, or if we begin to handle some of the policy issues, it can put us in the drivers seat for the next 50 years. This all plays into intelligence as well. Mr. Sanger absolutely. And i think in some ways its going to be some of the most interesting parts of the report is, as you make your way through what we were prepared for and what wasnt. A few political questions for you, senator. I was hoping you may be able to take on those. You described before a russia that as you said hadnt really emerged from the cold war. And i hear that from many of your colleagues. Democrats and republicans. In fact, we hear it from everybody in the political spectrum, except the president himself. Hell talk about north korea as a threat. He will talk about iran as a threat. Hell talk about terrorism as a threat. Hell talk cyber as a threat. As i discussed in some of the Foreign Policy interviews leading up to in the campaign that maggie and i did with him. But in the russia. But not russia. Why not . Mr. Burr i could probably make the case that there are other countries, north korea mr. Sanger he talks about north korea and iran frequently. Mr. Burr those seem to be the two hotbeds in the world right now from a standpoint of lessthanperfect relationships we have. The president said when he ran, and i think he practiced in business, the ability to go to a table and the person across the table not to have a clue as to where hes coming from. And i think in many cases thats his art of negotiating. I think hes continued that in his role as president. It is uncomfortable sometimes for members of congress. It is uncomfortable sometimes for the American People. It is his style. I dont think its going to change. At the end of the day, he will be judged just like every president is. By what they say in the books that they write after youre gone. It has also been amazing to me as i search out, like you do, david, i search out individuals that have been in certain fields for a long time, negotiated deals with north korea in the past. And i sat down with them and said, what do you think about the president s north korea strategy right now . And was amazed that many that i respect said, i cant disagree with it. So i think that there is, its almost a sport of public criticism toward how he does, but when you get down to the content of what he does, what im finding is that people who i would perceive as subject experts dont have too much critical to say about the content of what he does. Mr. Sanger the substance is better than the noise around it. Mr. Burr the noise around it ive said this to reporters on the hill because they come to me with every tweet. I dont tweet. They havent learned, i dont read them, whether its my wifes or the president s, but my comment to them is, try to mr. Sanger try to figure out which of those two could get you in more trouble. Mr. Burr but my point is, as long as you cover it, hes going to continue to do it. In his world when you control every segment of the news why would you ever give that up . And sometimes its a little more outlandish than the last time, but when it dominates the news cycle for the next 60 minutes and we know in the world of news were broken down to every 60 minutes. Every show need to highlight for the next 60 minutes. Do understand theres a generation coming behind us that is not on a 60minute cycle. They are on an instantaneous cycle. Their news goes to them instantaneously on their devices. They are not programmed to watch the 6 30 news at night. Theyre not programmed to watch the news every hour on cable. They get it, they dont fact check much but they get it. And they make decisions base based upon what they get. Shouldnt be a shock to us they buy the same way. Think about this statistic. By 2026, 50 of the 16yearolds that turned 16 after 2020 will never have a drivers license or own a car. Generational change in habits that makes the description that i gave you of my father look normal. My point is this. You have to look at all of this in the same bucket to try to figure out what are the right policies in the future . Mr. Sanger building on this thought, the president has not said much about russia. The central mystery that strikes me, that youre trying to grapple with within the investigation is this what might the president be so worried about that he denies contact with the russians, its only in february we were told there were no contacts between the campaign and the russians. And then denounced the attempts to go investigate those. To to the point that we read last week that he asked you to wrap this up quickly. Have you uncovered anything that would explain why it is that he was so intent on denying those contacts . And so determined to have the investigations end quickly . Mr. Burr let me say this. When we complete our investigation, we intend to have a thorough report shared with the American People as we possibly can and it will, i think, answer many of those questions, and im not going to cut the investigation short and make news on that today. But i think its important to understand that if we were talking a year and a half ago, theres nobody in this room that believed that the organization of the Trump Campaign was capable of collusion. Think about that statement. Until about the first of october, there was nobody in america, including the president , that believed he was going to win. So when you put things in those context, and thats what we have to do when we go back and look at an investigation because were trying to put our mindset in the same mindset that policymakers, election officials, foreign governments were in at the time. You cant do the investigation just looking through the Rearview Mirror and taking todays perspective. Were beginning to sort through all of that, some of which will probably be alarming and concerning. Some of it wont play out to have the same impact that i think some stories have suggested. But i think what you can be assured of is that our review of that information will be as thorough as we possibly can be. Mr. Sanger let me ask a little bit about the broader russia hacking. It wasnt just democratic targets as you alluded to before. But government and nongovernment targets weve seen. Yet the russians do not appear to have had much trouble penetrating american targets. We believe suspects in the shadow brokers in the seven leaks which you read about in the open presses were the leaks that have appear to have come out of the n. S. A. And c. I. A. So there is a concern now, a growing concern, that even our intelligence agencies cant protect their most valuable secrets. Why do you think that is . What is it that has made the intelligence agencies themselves as vulnerable as every other group that you have talked about here . Mr. Burr let me bring up two things. When amazon spends 2 billion a year to defend their cloud platform, which i believe is an accurate number, and the u. S. Government doesnt spend anywhere near 2 billion to defend its data, are we shocked that our data gets hacked . Shouldnt be. And then im going to read you a statement that was made, im going to challenge you to tell me who said it. The quote is this. Its often difficult to determine the precise effects of russian political influence activities, typically they seek to capitalize on existing sentiment within the countries and cause and effect is hard to establish. Their resources do not guarantee success but in a close election or legislative battle, they could spell the difference. These activities are designed to exploit internal conflicts and doubts and the expectations that these will tip Public Opinion and government policy p or co government policy p or co any clue who that was . That was Deputy Director of intelligence at the c. I. A. Robert gates testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the United States policy toward eastern europe, western europe and the soviet union in 1985. This isnt new. But i dont think that weve kept russia and for those that truly do follow russia, and by the way, i think i used russia and the actual quote had soviet, i thought id change that today. We dont keep them focused as the threat. There was once a time where 70 of the folks that worked at the Intelligence Agency were educated in russian. Not the case today. As you can well imagine. We surged to where the greatest concern is. We forget the fact that some dont diminish in the threat they present to the country and russia happens to represent that. Mr. Sanger youve got two older russian threats, then well go out to the audience here. The North Koreans launched a pretty successful, appears to be successful, least longrunning test last week. Ran for more than 50 minutes. Icbm that looks like an old ss18, wasnt quite that. When we looked at the engines on those, looks to be the russian rd250 engines, back to the 1960s, produced in ukraine for many years when it was still part of russia. Do you have any evidence or any reasonable to believe that any reason to believe that russia is now or has been a significant supplier to the north Korean Missile program that is occupying whatever waking hours you have that are not devoted to the current investigation . Mr. Burr i think its safe to say that the state of u. S. The stated u. S. Government position is we want to disrupt based on sanctions. Any technologies that will furthermore further their missile program, their ability to project a threat globally. Not just to us but around the world. Would it surprise me that russia might attempt to provide products . No, that wouldnt surprise me. I think that your reference to the similarities of an 1980sstyle power plant might be accurate but i think that the one mistake i think we would make is to say that north korea on its own cant innovate. Remember, north korea is one that hacked sony. I think north korea continues to carry out incredible cyber operations. They would probably be somewhere in the three to five category of globally who were most concerned with for cyber. So i dont think you could look at the progress of the north Korean Missile program and not think that that can be generated internally. So it may be that were no longer in a world where the sanctions have the same impact that they might have two years ago or 10 years ago. And this is something that policymakers have to put into their thought process as we determine whats the way forward. Mr. Sanger are the sanctions you passed recently being enforced to your mind . Mr. Burr i think we keep a good eye on sanctions and i think we would all point to the obvious countries or specific areas where it might not be fully enforced but sanctions are a significant tool that still does alter in a fairly significant way the actions of people like north korea. Mr. Sanger lets go out to all of you. There are microphones around. I remind you were on the record. I ask you just to keep your questions very short, make sure they are a question, not a lecture. Well start with you, sir. Thank you both for the time. Adam getty with bionic security. You mentioned by 2020, approximately, Tech Companies wont file nearly as many tech patents because the time it will take the Patent Office to evaluate them the patent will be outdated. We look at a year and a half time frame of technology and well have 10 to 20 times the technology in the next 10 years than from the last 30. Have you feel from an intelligence perspective that countries like china and russia are investing on the orders of magnitude 10 to 20 times the amount of capital into supercomputing and Machine Learning while the u. S. Is decreasing support for those same things . Case in point, organization that keeps track of global supercomputers publicly known in the last however long its been around, china had a dozen on there, give or take and in the last year they put 41 up. Mr. Burr one would be a general statement that i feel very confident about the level of investment we have in making sure that technologically we can compete globally with all of our adversaries and thats both from an economic standpoint and from a military standpoint. Let me just be real clear. If it takes two and a half years to procure a weapons system, at the department of defense, and china can do it in 30 days, we will have a distinct disadvantage as you begin to roll into technologies. Mr. Sanger two and a half years in the pentagon would be record speed over there. Mr. Burr im trying to be diplomatic. I think that gives you an example of what were up against. I dont think that the whole of government understands the disruption that technology will play the next 10 years. Placement of data, systems, security within the systems. Firewalls. Where you actually do the computing. The sorting of data. And my hope is that we will see a much Greater Partnership between the private sector and u. S. G. Going forward. Because we dont have all the bench strength. And we compete with the private sector for the talent that we have within the Intelligence Community, within the defense department, wherever. Nowhere else in the world, its all one. Its shared. And thats why you can look at somebody that works for a Software Company in russia and automatically assume that because of the rules over there, they practically work for the f. S. B. Im not suggesting that any u. S. Tech companies become controlled by the federal government. I said partnership. Questioner i wanted to follow up on that point. Do you think that with this responsibility for the private sector, the implications that their technology for national security, that we should be sharing intelligence with them on limited basis . Or that theres some other new relationship that we should have with these Tech Companies to help prepare them for the implications of their technology . Mr. Burr that we, the u. S. Government, should be sharing with the private sector . Questioner right. Mr. Burr i think theres a pretty good sharing relationship that exists today. And the one point i would make is that technology doesnt affect just one thing. Its going to effect everything. And if i looked at where the greatest impacts are, its probably not in the world i deal in every day. Its probably in health care. I mean, i could pick some sectors where technology is a potential game changer from a standpoint of i just make this statement. We had at least a sixmonth debate on the Affordable Care act. I looked at technology not long ago that we loaded in this phone that probably will be approved by 2020 that will allow you to take a retinal scan from your phone, a breath analysis into the phone, a blood sample from not penetrating the skin. And send it to a lab where it will be tested against 49 biomarkers by 2020. That will give you a report within a matter of minutes or hours, that tells you whether you have a disease or not. The whole debate we had about where do you live based upon where is the doctor, where the hospital, by 2020 its out the window. Technology is taking care of that. Im not addressing the insurance side of it. Im addressing how some of the issues that we were grappling with in this debate are off the deck. Questioner how do you square the fact that the department of Homeland Security has named our election process Critical Infrastructure . With the fact that our election system is largely state and locally run . And what do you see the federal governments role generally in the American Election system, given the threat of cyberattacks . Mr. Burr i think its safe to say the secretary of state or the equivalent in 50 states took great offense at what they perceived as Homeland Securitys attempt to take over their election process in their states. Mr. Sanger was it that . Mr. Burr i dont think it was intended to be that but i think the interpretation is that because we lacked the clarity in policy. Now, im a little bit empathetic of secretary johnsons role at the time, that wed never experienced anything like this, they were pressed for an answer. Not only in putting together an intelligence report, the i. C. A. , 90 days, i think. But they were also pressed with trying to come back with things that assured the American People that the federal government was on top of it. Mr. Sanger might explain to the group what the i. C. A. Stands for. Mr. Burr the i. C. A. Was the report that president obama asked the Intelligence Community to put together on russias involvement in our election cycle. It was briefed to the president and to the congress in december. It was released publicly to the American People in january. Mr. Sanger and briefed to President Trump who president elect trump who said at the time he accepted the conclusions. Mr. Burr correct. So Going Forward, there are Lessons Learned that weve uncovered in the investigation. They werent difficult. A lot of notifications werent made to states where there was ongoing attempts by russia to get into their data files. Now, let me say, emphatically we have verified theres no election fraud, theres no change of vote totals. But there were attempts to get into voter files for reasons that we dont know. But our federal policy was that if the secretary of state wasnt cleared from a standpoint of security, then she or he couldnt be notified. Mr. Sanger is that a problem with the clearance system or is that a problem that we should have just declassified all this information right away and put it out there . Mr. Burr my take is we should have declassified the information and or found somebody with a clearance stat us that we could have notified. Mr. Sanger is there any reason that couldnt be made public . I had this push and pull with the Obama Administration at the time. They were quite insistent it would remain classified. I cant for the life of me figure out why. Mr. Burr in hindsight i dont think i see anything that declassified, it wouldnt, except there were sources and methods that might have been jeopardized. But i think there was a way for us to make notifications that might have sanitized it to a way that would have declassified it. The fact is, we didnt. And even in the intel authorization bill which we finished four or five months ago, we wrote a piece in there that instructed that every state would have somebody that was designated and cleared to be the recipient of notifications when this happens in the future. So theres a federal action. The determination of how states run elections states that its their responsibility. And we dont want to do anything to change that. Mr. Sanger the gentleman right here. Questioner thank you. Thank you for the time, senator. I was just wondering, is committee concern of less capable countries, perhaps our allies, that are or could be targets themselves but are not capable of identifying or perhaps finding the results . Is the committee at this time concerned or aware of any russian actions toward allies or friends that are going through election cycles before our next one . Mr. Burr yes. [laughter] ill look backwards. France, germany. Montenegro. Netherlands. I could probably look forward. I think to believe that russias not attempting in the United States to do things potentially for the 2018 cycle i think would be ignorant on our part. Mr. Sanger have you seen any evidence on capitol hill among your colleagues, many of whom run for reelection, i hear, that in fact there is continued russian activity . Mr. Burr i think all of my colleagues probably are worried or should be worried about it. I think every state should be worried about it. It is the committees intent to put out recommendations as part of our final or interim report. David and i had a conversation before we came out. Let me distinguish this for you. If were not to a point that we can write a final report with sufficient time for states to be able to handle their primaries this year, then we will probably make a joint decision to release our recommendations on Election Security by itself so that states can at least have the blueprint that we suggest. These are not necessarily initiatives that involve federal legislation. Or federal initiative. Ill just give you one as an example. I couldnt in good conscience tell any state that it would be wise in 2018 not to have a paper trail of the vote total. Now, that may only affect a couple of states. But with the limited amount that i know right now, i cant go into 2018 and say that would be a wise thing for you to do, to give up on that ability to go back and check the accuracy of vote tallies. So the things that we do, i dont think youre going to learn anything in there that you didnt think yourself. They will be common sense. Its just were adding a voice to the fact that theres a sense of urgency to do it. Mr. Sanger and whats your timeline for the rest of the report . That would come out in the First Quarter i guess because youre heading into primary season. Mr. Burr if i gave that you timeline, then youd be the one journalist in the country that had this. [laughter] mr. Sanger i cant object to that. Mr. Burr i will answer you the same way i answered the president and you alluded to a statement that the president made to me. I want to put that in context. That was in a telephone conversation that the president and i had last may. It wasnt last week. The subject of the telephone call had nothing to do with the investigation. And as we concluded that conversation, the only way he can do it, he said, hey, i hope you can finish this investigation as quickly as you can and i responded, when we have interviewed everybody that needs to be interviewed and we feel like we have answered every question that the committee jurisdictionally should, we will finish. And thats the answer id give you. When i started in this, we had a well defined box of interest. And with every interview there may have been another individual that was added. With every news story there may have been another individual added. What really hurts is when theyre added but theyre not relevant. [laughter] because every individual that is added, it puts about three more weeks into an investigation. Thats why it makes it difficult for know look out. I can tell you with known individuals, and we have interviewed well over 100, i know exactly how many ive got on the deck to interview. I know how many interviews can be done in a week, a month. So i could project today when i finish those and when we can begin to conclude and write a report. I cant tell you how many people might get on the deck between now and that time that we didnt know about. Mr. Sanger you had some put on the deck the other day by special counsel mueller because when he submitted the public documents on the plea deal that general flynn signed, you saw stories immediately appearing, based on the bill, that he had consulted with other people about his conversations with ambassador kislyak. I assume now you have to go back and, unless you had it ready, interview everybody who he might have been in contact with and there were some public references in the indictment, in the statement of fact about who those might be. Mr. Burr when youve interviewed 100plus people, you have probably captured a lot of folks that nobody in that room would think would be on that list. Im not sure that the special counsels actions brought any surprises to the committee. Again, weve been at this now for almost just over 11 months. And we have had unprecedented access to individuals and to intelligence, setting a precedent that has never been set in the history of this country. And i see bannon around in the media and i get it from people back at home, but how much is this costing us . Weve done it with the same professional staff that is already hired by my committee. And thats why were at 100plus individuals that weve interviewed. Well more than any other committee. Because we were able to start on day one. Because theyre seasoned, professional staff that knew exactly what they were doing, knew what where to look and what to ask. Had we turned outside and said, lets get a basket of people to come in im not sure i could have gotten them security clearances in 90 days. Much less already have been in the interview mode. I think we made the right decision. Again, im willing to let the American People judge the product that we come out with at the end of this. And i can assure you its not going to be somebody something that im going to be able to influence because they will test it against the house Intelligence Committee, the Senate Judiciary committee, and theyll eventually test it against bob muellers individual counsel. I have every reason to try to get this right. Mr. Sanger ok. Lets see. In the back corner right there. Questioner senator, given the last point that you just made, and given the fact that you said that the generation of 26 doesnt fact check very much, how much confidence do you have that when this report comes out, that it wont be put into the tribal chemistry that we have in this country right now . That people will take whatever you say with the clairvoyant and the rational presentation you just made and run with it in two different directions, how much confidence do you have and how do we get out of this vicious circumstance that will were in to begin with . Mr. Burr the short answer is, i dont have a lot of confidence. But what youve presented in your question is the challenge i accept. For the product that we produce. Tribal atmosphere. I havent heard that one. Im going to remember that. I wrote it down. Weve got a couple of routes, we can go from the standpoint of a committee and that product that we end up with. I dont think you can have political differences if your objective is to lay down the facts. And to let the American People see facts and come to their conclusions. So, though im chairman, i do this with the support of all members. Because thats the way the Intelligence Committee always functions. There may be a point in time where i need to exercise the chairs prerogative in moving forward. Were not there for me to make a call because i have to tell you that senator warner and i and every member of the committee have worked together. If you were interviewed by this staff, you couldnt pick out who was republican and who was democrat. And i know that because ive had individuals who have been interviewed that came up to me and told me that. Nor has any member participated in any of the private interviews. So, my point is this, we may be, when we conclude in a situation where we dont choose to have a Committee Vote on anything, where our intent is to lay the facts down and if theres a disagreement about how to interpret the facts there may be a majorityminority views on the facts, but what i have said from day one to the staff and to all the members, there is no substitute for us verifying that what were putting down are facts. Mr. Sanger one of your members, angus king, says that he thought youd be able to get complete Committee Unity on what the russians did, the timeline, even the recommendations Going Forward. He thought that the split would come on the question of, was there collusion, was there conspiracy, was there any moment in which the president s motives look like they were to obstruct justice . Do you agree with them . Is that an area where youre likely to go into disagreement . Mr. Burr i think most americans would agree with that. Thats the area where politics could potentially come into play. Last time i checked this town was full of politics. I expect it to continue. I think what weve tried to do is to leave politics out of it from a standpoint of the investigation. I can do that structurally. What i cant leave out is politics as it relates to how the final facts are spun. So, short of the committee having some disagreement on what we write, id rather not write anything. And if we do, id rather write it as this is the majority, this is the minority, but heres unanimous agreement on here are the facts. And if somebody wants to be influenced by either one of the reports, great. If they want to assess and come to their own conclusions based upon the facts, i need to provide them the opportunity to do that. And thats what well attempt to do. Mr. Sanger we have just a few minutes left. Im going to take two or three questions together and well let you pick which ones you actually want to answer. A Great Washington tradition. Well start right here and then the gentleman right in front. Questioner thank you for coming out. Dave cooper with the i. T. Company as well from industry. 6 billion cost for an aircraft carrier. We just established im sorry, 6 billion for an aircraft carrier. 2 billion for google to secure their environment. Why would we not put more money into trading that ecosystem and then the second piece of that is, can we bring in industry, defense contractors into that ecosystem . Theres no way we can at all afford to, as companies, match what these threats are and our supply chain seems to be mr. Burr when you say bring companies into the defense of the data . Questioner possibly. If were going to create an ecosystem, save 2 billion. Why would we not bring in our contracting supply chain . Questioner federal computer week. Earlier you talked about wanting to look forward and if possible, look around the corner when it comes to election cybersecurity, some folks on the stage here before you talked about not wanting to get bogged down in the last war or the details and the tactics of the last war. My question is, in cognizant of the fact that the report is yet to come out, what is around the corner . What issues or problems or holes are out there that we are not discussing or talking about that you think will come into play over the next 10year time span that you referenced . Mr. Sanger and one last one right there. Questioner department of energy. Its been discussed earlier and in many other forms that maybe the u. S. Government needs to establish a more credible cyber deterrence policy. I was wondering, what are your thoughts on what the u. S. Government can do to establish that and whats the role for congress in that process . And i would only clarify that i dont just mean responding to cyber spent events. I mean using all tools at our disposal. Mr. Burr im going to wrap both of your questions, the second one and the because cybers the third one. Greatest threat. Now, i may be more concerned today about a potential north korea action. But when im going to bed and i lay my head on the pillow, what am i thinking about, im thinking about cyber. Im thinking about the vulnerabilities it presents to us. If i get the gist of where youre going, senator feinstein and i have been focused on the cyber issue for three years. Three or four years. I wish i could tell you today that ive come up with a legislative remedy to secure not just u. S. G. But secure personal data regardless of whether its a target or whatever. I havent. As a matter of fact, ive come up with the belief that that cant be done. So our answer is a combination of moving data to the cloud, riding on somebody elses investment in security, private sector. So im looking at a Publicprivate Partnership with in a different way. Understanding what we need to do in the future from a standpoint of where do you sort that data . Do you bring that data back down and sort it . Do you try to sort it up there . Weve got to rethink the whole security of the connections. Now, for those in business, and ive tested this on c. E. O. s, it didnt go over real well, i said, if youll take every employee off of Internet Connection and ask them to come to work and bring their ipad or their iphone and do their personal shopping on that versus on your desk top computer, then of a cyber intrusion into your business because ive cut down the number of portals that get outside. Without exception, every c. E. O. Has looked at me and said, i cant do that or i wouldnt have any employees. So you have to understand where i start from and i would imagine that if i went to agencies within the federal government, i would probably get the same answer. So, if i cant control the number of portals, then ive got to try to put together a partnership that controls where things are where data is stored and how much is invested to protect it. And then weve got to rethink everything that we do with that data. Ive given you a world that some of you sort of understand what im saying about technology and its disruption. But the one thing that everybody has to understand, its not just technologys advancement that lets you have an autonomous car. Its the meticulous commitment on the part of the companies that are doing the software of having people label the software. Let me explain. Its getting a map and teaching a computer what a tree is, what a pedestrian is. What a car is. What a hydrant. Is what a curb is. What a line means. If not, it doesnt work. It doesnt learn this on its own. Its able to learn once youre able to label what it is it learns from. Theres a step that we have yet to get to, though we have accomplished it on autonomous vehicles, we have a long way to go on everything else. Its estimated that there are 200,000 people in china between 100,000 in the government complex and 100,000 in the private collection that do nothing but label data. Because until you label it, you cant use it as a learning instrument. For artificial intelligence. Were nowhere near that. So, for the foreseeable future, cyber will continue to be the thing i most fear and its primarily because everybody can innovate, everybody has smart people, which means everybody can potentially look at us as their target. The reason that we prioritize and the five that i would name at the top, you would also name at the top, its because their capabilities are matched with their intent. Anybody below the line, they may have the capabilities, but the intent may not be there to penetrate the United States. Mr. Sanger and your five are russia, china, north korea, iran and who did you leave out . Mr. Burr im going to leave out the last one if i can. Mr. Sanger senator, when they designed this beautiful building here, they put a secret dungeon down underneath for moderators who run over time. And im trying to avoid being joining their company. So i thank you very much for spending the time with us. For a fascinating discussion. I hope you come back for more. Mr. Burr thank you. 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