Transcripts For CSPAN Space Exploration 20171112

Nasa, this pages, and the orion spacecraft. This is an hour and 20 minutes. Good morning. Subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, they could declare recess on the subcommittee at all can anytime. Welcome to todays hearing, an update on nassau exploration systems development. I now recognize myself for five minutes of an opening statement. Exploration means expanding our reach as humans. As a civilization and as a country, the ability of our nation to explore space is a strategic imperative. Our ability to carry out the strategic never will rely to carry out the strategical endeavor will let us push beyond low earth orbit, we must finish the override capsule in order to operate in deep space. We must update our ground infrastructure to support a rejuvenated and expanded agenda. Nasas longterm goal is laid out in the 2017 nasa transition authorization act, to extend human presence throughout the solar system. The space launch system in all right and have strategic capabilities that will allow and enable humans and robots to accomplish this goal. Sls and orion will enable u. S. Astronauts to return to the moon for the First Time Since the regulus in 1972. In the inaugural meeting of the Space Council, we will return american astronauts to the moon. Not only to leave behind footprints and flags but to build a foundation that we need to send americans to mars and beyond. Sls and orion are the tip of a spear that will lead that return. The commercial sector can contribute by supplying Necessary Services and providing augmenting capabilities. Sls and orion are irreplaceable strategic assets necessary for missions to the moon, mars and beyond. One of the first major laws that President Trump signed it was the nasa transition authorization act of 2017. The bill, originating in this committee, directed nasa to stay the course with sls and orion. It also reaffirmed congressional and president ial direction for nasa to utilize a steppingstone approach. The exploration. Allowing for a return to the moon, i wholeheartedly support the administrations call to return to the moon. This committee has received testimony that the moon is the appropriate next destination for our Space Program. Returning to the moon does not have to mean delaying a mission to mars. On the contrary, it is a logical step that enables exploration of the red planet and beyond. While i am excited by the promise of how strategic assets like sls and orion will enable america to return to the moon, this committee has a responsibility to conduct oversight to ensure that these programs are successful. All three exploration system elements, sls, orion, and ground systems have experienced delays and overruns. This year has challenged the program. Last year, louisiana was hit by a tornado. In august, texas and florida were hit by hurricanes. A couple years ago, the vertical Assembly Facility foundation was not reinforced. This required a rebuild. This year complications with friction, resulted in poor wells on the core stage. All of this adds up. It appears as though the new issues with tornadoes and hurricanes and welding will cost nearly a year of delay. Depending on whether the europeans deliver the Service Module on time for integration on orion, the delay may be greater. Congress needs to understand where the program is today, what cost, schedule and performance deliverables can the agency commit to . What is the plan Going Forward . How will nasa manage future issues to ensure longterm Program Sustainability . We are not out of the woods yet on this program but we can see the edge of the forest. Significant progress has been made. We are bending metal, writing Software Code and integrating hardware. Given a program of this magnitude this is no small feat. Particularly given the challenges that the program faced under the last administration. In order to meet our nations Space Exploration goals, it will take focus, discipline and continuity of efforts Going Forward. The administration in Congress Must not only provide leadership and direction but we must also appropriately fund and oversee the program. Similarly, nasa and the contractors have to execute. Failure to do so could have dire consequences for the program and there would be no one is to blame. The administration has demonstrated renewed support, congress assist Congress Consistently funds the program. It is time for congress and the contractors to deliver. Im grateful that our witnesses are here today to help us understand where we are with the program and how we plan to move forward and i look forward to your testimony. I now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from california, for opening statement. Thank you mr. Chairman. Good morning to our distinguished panel. This is a great hearing, and a great time for this hearing to get an update on the nasa Exploration System Development activities. Nasa continues to progress but as the chairman points out there have been challenges beyond their control. In developing key elements, to move humans beyond low earth orbits and eventually send them to mars, construction of the space launch system, the orion vehicle is well underway. Major components for Exploration Mission one, known as the m1 and em two are undergoing evocation and testing. In august, 2017, nasa completed the welding of a liquid oxygen tank scheduled to be flown on em1. It was successfully powered up in august 2017 for the first time. On october 29, 2017 engineers conducted a test of a flight engine to be used on em2. Nasa and Industry Partners have not undertaken a Rocket Development program of this scale for more than three decades. In addition to new hardware and infrastructure, this is also necessitated reestablishing capabilities needed for deep Space Exploration. Nasa and its prime contractors and 1000 suppliers spread across every state are part of the program. However a program of this size does not happen without challenges. The human Space Exploration program is facing several. Including, having to maintain manufacturing, tests and processing schedules as sls and orion are integrated. The recovery from tornado damage that the chairman mentioned, resolving firsttime production issues and adjusting activities in response to appropriations funding. As the chairman pointed out, independent analysis have also identified concerns with nasa;s ability to complete launch dates. Gao found that despite the old ryan and sls projects making progress, technical challenges continue to cause delays. Gao characterized the planned launch date as precarious. Part of what i hope to get out of the hearing today is a better understanding of what that clear plan and an updated launch date for em1 and the opportunity to examine other important issues including reasons for the latest delay in launching em1 and having confidence in the plan moving forward. Indicators and milestones, congress should use for measuring progress made by both the sls, orion programs and establishing production capability. How we will return to the moon including establishing a human presence would impact the goal of sending humans to mars in 2030 as directed in the transition authorization act. In closing, mr. Chairman, you have often heard me talk about, growing up in the middle of the space race, in california. The home of much of the apollo mission, and, how that inspired me along with a generation of kids to think about the sciences and beyond. What we are talking about in terms of the systems we are developing today is a reestablishment of American Leadership in the Space Program as we start to think about going back to the moon and going beyond into deep space. That does have the ability to inspire another generation of kids and reinvigorate our desire to explore our curiosity about the universe around us. One of those inspirational figures is with us today, dr. Magnus has flown on the shuttle and lived on the International Space station. We thank you for your service and appreciate you being a role model for millions of young people. I look forward to the testimony and i yield back. Thank you, i couldnt agree more. Now recognize chairman of the full committee, mr. Smith. Thank you mr. Chairman and i appreciate your comments and the ranking members comments as well. Congress has supported nasa for years. We have showed our support in law and with funding from one administration to the next. After all these years, after billions of dollars spent, we are facing more delays and cost overruns. Recent hurricanes and tornadoes have damaged the szilagyis and slowed have damaged facilities but many problems are selfinflicted. It is disappointing to hear about delays caused by poor execution in the u. S. Taxpayer, and the u. S. Taxpayer has invested so much. The last eight Years Congress has defended this system from attempts at cancellation and proposed budget cuts. Funding for the explorations of system is now nearly 4 billion a year. The Government Accountability office reported last spring that the first launch of the sls likely will be delayed a year from late 2018 to late 2019. Delays with the european Service Module could push this into 2020. If this is the case, the schedule for the first launch with crew is also at risk. The nasa Inspector General reported this week that the development of exploration systems is one of the most significant challenges facing nasa. He highlighted problems facing all components. Sls and orion and ground systems. Nasa and the contractors should not assume future delays and cost overruns will have no consequences. If delays continue, costs rise, and foreseeable technical challenges arise, no one should assume the u. S. Taxpayer or their representatives will tolerate this forever. Alternatives to sls and orion would involve taxpayer funding and lead to further delays but the more setbacks for sls and orion, the more support builds for other options. Other space exploiters and programs at nasa like the commercial crew program are also facing significant delays and challenges. Nasa has suffered for decades from Program Cancellations that have delayed exploration goals. As the systems progress, from development to production, operation and maintenance nasa and contractors must bring down costs and guarantee deadlines are met. To this end, i was glad to see nasa issue a request for information last november in order to explore ways to reduce cost. Moving to firm, fixed priced contracts for production might be an appropriate path Going Forward but only if it benefits the taxpayer. Congress needs to have conquered confidence in nasa and the contractors which i do not believe we have now. That confidence is ebbing and if it goes further nasa will have a hard time maintaining their credibility. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Now let me introduce our witnesses. Our first witness today, associate administrator of human exploration and Operations Director at nasa. He began his nasa career in 1977 performing Aeronautical Research and has managed the spacelike portfolio since 2011. He received a bachelors of science in aeronautical engineering from Purdue University and a masters of science in Mechanical Engineering from the university of toledo. Our second witness, dr. Sandra magnus, executive director at the American Institute of aeronautics and astronautics. In addition to her role at aiaa, she is a former astronaut and worked as a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry. Dr. Magnus received a degree in physics as well as degree in electrical engineering, both from the Missouri University of science and technology. She also has a phd from georgia tech and i now recognize the first witness for five minutes to present testimony. Thank you. We are living in an amazing time in human space life. Nasa has had crew members living onboard the International Space station for more than 17 years. Most High School Students today have only known a time when humans were living and working in space. Were using the space station to expose a Broader Community beyond the Current Space industry, the benefits of using microgravity as an environment to develop new systems and techniques for use on earth. These researchers have never seen the benefits of space to their products and processes. The space station is becoming a place for business to expand, grow, and gain competitive advantage over companies not doing research in space. Having crews in space is now expected and business operating there will become normal. Spot services for cargo delivery for does go and is acquiring a third and certify new systems to transport systems and cruise to the iss. These companies are busy manufacturing and servicing their systems. Theyre helping to build a strong commercial space industry and it allows us to focus our efforts on deep Space Exploration. This brings us to the subject of todays hearing. Exploration systems development. Nasa space launch system rockets, the orion capsule with european Service Module and ground systems programs are undergoing manufacturing and certification in preparation for their first integrated flight. Think about it. There are more human spaceflight hardware in production today than at any time in the United States since apollo. As a nation we are Building Three different crew vehicles, orion, star liner, and dragon. One for deep space and two for lower orbit. Into this point was not easy and there are challenges ahead. However we need to pause and reflect on this amazing time. As we pursue human exploration further into the solar system, our exploration teams are building more than a rocket and spacecraft for single flight. We are building a flexible, sustainable system that will be used for decades to come. With this approach, we can in the we can enhance our explayers and systems to a college a variety of missions in deep space. We are also building a system designed with modern manufacturing techniques for lower production costs than previous designs. The work performed in support of orion as applications to other programs. For example, hundreds of requests for information have been transferred from orion to the commercial spacecraft for lower earth orbit. The work on self reaction friction welding will have application beyond sls to other launch vehicles in development. It is the proper role of government to develop capabilities for use i all. For use by all. A structural test article, one flown during exploration flight, and the current flight article have all been built for orion. Four major tests have been completed. The structural testing is fully completed, the vertical Assembly Building at ksc is complete. The launchpad is near completion. All 25 engines and controllers are ready for flight. 17 parachute Development Tests are complete. Four qualification parachute tests are complete with four more open. The data from these tests are helping our commercial partners with their tests also. The amount of work completed today for the deep Space Exploration systems is large and documented in my written testimony. Further, this Government Investment in sls and orion is benefiting all. We need to be careful and not focus on a single launch date projection but rather take time to examine the quality, quantity and future benefit of the work completed. This deeper examination will reveal the value of the work completed to the nation. Nasa has carefully reviewed the work remaining to launch including, while this review shows a launch date of june, 2020 as possible, the agency has gone to an earlier launch. This earlier date is reasonable and challenges teams to stay focused on tasks without creating undue pressure. Nasa is taking additional steps to reduce scheduling risks for both known and unknown issues. And protect for the earliest possible launch day, the cost for em1 remain within the 50 limit for sls and are slightly above for ground systems operations. Exploration mission two, is not adversely impacted by the em1 schedule and the work completed shows outstanding progress. I welcome your questions and thank you for this opportunity to discuss the amazing work accomplished by the men and women of nasa and their contractor partner teams. Thank you. Thank you. I recognize dr. Magnus for five minutes for her testimony. Dr. Magnus development of the crew vehicle are major developments, and i will not understate their importance. The idea of what is possible in space has been in transition over the last decade. I use a model to describe the ecosystem. I refer you to the figure on the monitors and imagine a balloon centered on the earth slowly expanding. That service represents the expansion of human activity. The apollo area, the surface of that bubble has expanded only to lower earth orbit. The government was the driving force behind the expansion of human activity in space, and this has led to an accumulation of experience, technology, and management operations in this environment. Now private industry is interested in engaging many more actively in this space. As commercial activities mature, it creates a Foundation Upon the initial phase can expand beyond low earth orbit. For the future, expansion will be driven by government goals and investment. Because of increased investment, nasa and the government are free to develop beyond. At the core of this model are questions. What are the technologies, knowledge, and experience the government wants to have available for broad dissemination to industry 50 years from now, and what are the capabilities and services that the government and private industry are interested in developing that can potentially sustain viable spacebased businesses after leveraging initial investment . A core concept is the fact there is a need for Government Investment at the leading edge of exploration during the initial phase, and the fact that industry will sooner or later reap the benefit to create an established business ventures, and i might comment, we are not ready for the development phase, but you see that happening over the last decade in the satellite industry, where there are independent spheres and the government is the customer, but the government does its own thing for its own purposes. You can add that with a twist to human spaceflight. This is the dynamic that is unfolding. If it is employed strategically, this brings me to the important point, and i do not think you disagree the United States needs a comprehensive National Space strategy. It is imperative that it is the nature of the Space Business to make advancements. The Space Council provides an opportunity. It is not enough to ensure the success of the program. Sufficient resources need to be allocated. This is something that has challenged nasa in the past and continues. When i joined the agency, nasa received 7 10 of a penny for every tax dollar. Today they receive. 5 of a penny for every tax dollar. Nasa is constrained by limited control. It has limited freedom to adjust overhead, whether size or skill set, and in some ways the management of tasks around the agency. To execute a longterm plan in a constrained environment, nasa must begin having the ability to take actions. Equally important to the resources is the stability of those resources. Developing hardware is complex. A program with a multiyear phase budget can absorb more decisions resulting in lower operational costs. The current budgeting process and lack of a stable budgetary environments prohibits this to be used. The transition occurring in how humans engage in space has been a goal for decades. Our nation was built upon exploration and economic development. From the arrival of the first in appearance to the westward expansion, across the continent we have faced the challenges, and overcome obstacles. As we expand into the space, i am confident we can tap into the same spirit. Thank you for the opportunity to address this on become thank you for your continued support of our nations Space Program. I look forward to injury any questions. Representative babin thank you. I appreciate the witnesses testimony. The chair recognizes himself or five minutes for questions. And i want to thank you both. I was running a little late this morning, did not have a chance to see you before the hearing started. We appreciate you. One of the primary purposes of the nasa transition authorization act of 2017 was continuity of purpose, and expressing the importance of staying the course, so as to not delay americas Space Exploration any longer. Can each of you discuss the importance of continuity, the importance and how you balance that against good Program Management and discipline. Mr. Gerstenmaier it is important we had a common vision of what we are doing as we move forward so we can build the hardware and systems that can support that vision. We have done that with sls and orion. We have built a system that allows us to move human presence into the solar system. The capsule has applications for around the moon, and support lunar activities. It can also support of element beyond the earthmoon system. The sls rocket is designed to be a heavy lift launch capability that can support the Human Mission around the moon, and is critical for marsClass Missions, also missions such as the europa mission. It can reduce transit time 50 to the outer planets. We have built key infrastructure that allows us to fit within this architecture and framework we have been given. Keeping a constancy of purpose origin or direction, we are moving forward, it is extremely important to us. Starting at stopping is difficult. Chairman babin ok. Dr. Magnus . Dr. Magnus i would like to echo that. Starting and stopping in our industry is not healthy. We saw that in the Shuttle Program when we lost a lot of our corporate knowledge. Weve already learned that. The continuity piece is part. We have a little bit of a short Attention Span and we end up hurting ourselves. There were programs that we have seen nasa have to cancel over the years. If you look in the apollo era, the dedication a had over a decade to commit to that program. That is what you need in human spaceflight. You need a 20year program and need to be able to stick to it. It is exciting the committee is interested. I think the oversight is important to keep people focused. I think that is an important key. It takes the whole community. Have to be able to stick to the program and you have to be able to fund it appropriately so the Intelligent Decisions can be made. Chairman babin thank you very much. How well a delay in the first launch of an Uncrewed Space launch System Impact this . Nasas internal date is managing, as well as a date it is formally committing to. Do either of these dates now change . Mr. Gerstenmaier our first crewed mission, so far the schedule delay, even if the expiration mission 1 went to june, it does not impact where we are with em2. There is a constraint that the mobile launch platform in florida needs to be modified between the first flight in the second flight to allow for the exploration of the upper stage, and there is an amount of time needed for that upgrade of that mobile launcher. That is what keeps em1 and em2 tied together, but right now the slips we see do not impact the first crewed flight. We need to potentially discuss whether it is and that he just have another mobile launcher available to avoid that time between the two. That is the current time. Chairman babin dr. Magnus, do you have anything to add . Ok. How will a slip in the first launch of the space launch System Impact the cost of the program . It is pricing, that the overall cost has not changed that much, because what we have done is built more than one single flight. As work is completed on the first flight, that work can be set off to the side and the teams can start working on the next element. We have today multiple pieces of hardware in flow for the multiple missions across the sequence. There is no impact they are. To bear. We can support whatever mission they need and we will figure out whether it occurs after. We are going to go on to the gentleman from california. In your opening statement, you talked about the importance of having a Strategic Vision and we saw that when president kennedy challenged us in the 1960s to put a man on the moon and the second. My colleagues from colorado says by 2033. We ought to commit to putting a man on mars it does give the public the sense of what we are working for and that perspective is worth thinking about in the mission it gives us the chance to think about okay if we are going to the moon hell does that help us then think about how we are going to go and take the next step. So in that context is it worth thinking about going to deeper space. I am sensing that as we do this mission, we are learning a lot and reestablishing supplychain and reestablishing a workforce and talent base that will make it easier is that correct . To test the vehicles and the hardware to make sure they are operating to the levels they need to be when we put the crew on board, anonboard, and i thine this move outward, we go to the moon when we can return if something goes wrong in several days for five days. On the station today we can be back in about an hour or hour and a half. When we go to mars the are not committed for multiple months so i think you see the progression and taking more risk, learning to operate in a more challenging in ireland, and as the watergate and the more challenging environment, you need the systems to support operating in that environment, so it is kind of a natural setting stone and movement as we use the moon as a proving ground in the Training Ground and developments to the area we can build concepts, processes, procedures and hardware that allow us to go to the Class Missions in the future. And as we move on to send the crew, are we also know conceptually thinking about em three . Yes. We are building continually to challenge what we can do. The biggest advantage is we can not only carry the crew but a substantial habitation of peace with us on the em three and they will be able to go into that module and begin a presence around the moon which is against and starting to break that tie back to the home planet and getting us ready to move into the space so you can see where each mission of the past mission if we take stronger challenges and we pushed the team more and gain the experience and it feeds directly into the next missions of each one built on each other. On the slide that you presented, youve also showed the sector falling behind so can you describe how you see the private and International Community kind of falling behind as the government starts to push further and further how the private sector and International Community can continue to support that. That goes back to the National Country to strategy, because ideally what you would want to do from the National Viewpoint is figured out what are the technologies and capabilities that you want to invest in from the government viewpoints so that those knowledges and pieces of technology are available for everybody if you can encourage the companies that are interested in defending it from the National Viewpoint as well when you think about international peace, what are those technologies and capabilities that we want to take the lea lead and how do wet it to be transport experts . They decided to focus on robotics, for example and then understanding the concept of those priorities, you can establish how do you want to bring the International Partners in and help for companies to establish the leverage that they need to build into their businesses. So you have to start with a big picture that has to be a little bit more governmentwide and nationally focused. Let me make sure that i am thinking about this correctly. When we thought about the return to the moon, i can visualize the day where they focused on the Science Mission and that they may look at the various launch vehicles that are available in the commercial market as opposed to having to build their own vehicles, so okay contract with companies to the launch vehicle and they will look at the various landings of commercial vehicles and say we are in a contract with this lunar lander vehicle. Vehicle. Is that thif thats the right wk about this . If you have the tool docs to be the box again and using the satellite business as a model, there are Economic Activities going on where the government purchases the services and there are government activities as well so you need a mix and it needs to be driven by the strategic view for the country and what kind of capabilities do you want to create and make sure that you have Going Forward so there is a place for all of it in the right strategy. I am out of time and yield back. Now the gentleman from alabama. Thank you mr. Chairman. The production of the element is currently driving the Space Launch System Program as scheduled. The program is combining welding techniques and materials specifically the thickness of the middle that hasnt been used before while establishing new production techniques the program has faced numerous setbacks as it is developing the processes and correcting defects. How confident is the program in its contract to have gained enough knowledge to avoid these setbacks and delays for the future flight hardware . Weve met the challenges of the cells reacted thicker materials. We understand now how to do that. We will still probably continue to refine the welding techniques come up with a basic understanding is in place now and we know how to do the welding. As i said in my opening remarks, thats also important to the industry as a whole. They paved the way by allowing others to take the larger thickness of the materials. If you could, what steps does the programming of contractor have in place to avoid mistakes such as welding tool changes that shut down the production . Again we are carefully monitoring all of that activity. We are looking at the ways we can do an inspection. We knew fairly soon and immediately that there was a problem when it occurred, so the good news was we had tools and techniques to find that effect to presen present the front extg into the flight hardware and that was good. The bad thing was we didnt fully understand we have done smaller samples and smaller welding test but we hadnt done any of the magnitude or the scale that we are trying to do at the four vehicles i think we need to be prepared as we build schedules Going Forward to note that these firsttime things we have never done before of the magnitude that has never been done before we need a little bit of extra time the first time through and not be overly optimistic in the schedule, so we will build some time to do those kind of things to make sure that we dont have that same kind of problem moving forward and weve identified those areas in the future where we see these firsttime items we will put in place processes and procedures to what has occurred in the past. The course page element that is driving the sos Program Schedules still has to complete a major integrate testify here, which is called the green test run that will have a core stage integrated with its main engine. The tanks will be filled with cryogenic fuel for the first time and will be fired for about 500 seconds. The agents have been tested individually but not altogether, which creates a different heat, acoustic and vibration environment and this will be the first for the stage. What areas cause th caused the t concern during this test, cryogenic fuel piping, material stresses, etc. . The teams are analyzing that test in both its details to make sure we are prepared for the test and one thing we learned out of the last scheduled problem is we will have a dedicated team so w suite of a. Accommodated and take into account everything that we have occurred in the test. Concerns are that when the rocket is designed to come up its not designed to stay in one location so there could be some heat that builds back into the systems and weve been analyzing that in wind tunnels and looking to make sure we are prepared for that. Weve done extensive work to look at modeling and testing of how we do the flows and the most efficient offense looks at schedules. But we see that test coming up after the core stage its delivered is one of the key tests and risks. We will be fully prepared for the test when it occurs. Was potential damage or testing for that might occur during a nominal test in the nature such as insulation damage, boxes coming loose. All those things you described i think the biggest concern is probably thermal and potential thermal damage to the bottom of the vehicle and what needs to be repaired will have procedures in place. We will have alternate technique is to fix things if they occur during the testing so we are actively working in area and will have detailed test plans and medications for anything that may arise. Mr. Chairman, i will yield back. The gentleman from virginia. Thank you very much for being with us today. If i can be parochial for just a minute. From the midatlantic regional spaceport to the International Space station with important supply is for astronauts living and working in space and to my wonderful staff going to watch the launch. Im proud of th the role that he played in supporting from wallace. Aside from cape canaveral, the only ones that support the statiostation in support of the National Security Missions Including the recently announced interim mission next year and just last month and emerging launch startup there were three initial launches that will occ occur. Virginia puts nearly 200 million on the spaceport. Its been a unique successful Publicprivate Partnership between nasa and virginia. So as we look at the future space obligations, can you discuss how wallace can contribute to the planning and operations . We can see them playing the key role in the development of the space station and i think it is also interesting to see how the team is using that in creative ways. As you see it completes its Cargo Delivery Mission had been iand thenit comes off of the spe station and into another for its own uses afterwards. We have looked at the combustion experiments on the space station or onboard vehicle prior to their reentry to understand what fire detection should b be like and what Fire Suppression should be, so it is exciting to see the orbital team in creative ways to use the vehicles with a postmission after the mission is done and in creative ways of building other folks in so i think that we will continue to see a large number of launches out of virginia supporting the ready and growing in that area and it is also known as the control center. You will notice some of the other things being done in between flights, so you will see the investment in the launch site as well. Thank you very much. And your testimony, you said coming and you wrote i quote the United States needs a comprehensive National Space strategy accompanied by the continuous longterm commitment for its execution. Do we not have that already . And where are the holes in it . Sun came out during the National Space council meeting. Nasa has a concrete strategy for how they want to continue giving exploration. You know that initial phase of the bubble and they have been working with the private sector and the developed stage but there is a lot of work still respect to licensing discussion about the on orbit peace and discussion about the taxes so theres all kinds of the other pieces when you talk about what you have to do to develop the healthy economy or stable economy or help one get off the ground. Its not just about the rockets and habitats. There is a Legal Framework and regulations and things like this, so then you also have to fold in a piece of what do we want from our International Cooperation and encourage and private industry, how did he want to help the innovation succeed and make sure that the government has a mission is focused on the mission so theres all these pieces that i think are out there that its not clear that theyve all been brought together comprehensively. To connect, as you know, one of the ongoing debates that we hear on the committee is do we go directly to mars or t the mon first as a launching part and in your testimony you talked about leading the return of humans to the moon longterm exploration. So is it already decided that we go to the moon first . I think as we described earlier, the steppingstone approach where we use it as a Training Ground to move further out is a good approach and i think that is consistent with the authorization language we have received an objection from congress and the administration so it is a steppingstone approach of where we used it to look at things and learn skills that it is with the ultimate goal towards mars. A quote from your ten testimony into the regular use of the continued resolutions through the government shutdowns and about lac the lack of the et prohibits this kind of comprehensive space trade to be used i just want to say thank you for putting that in writing with the workforce and the Government Contracting community and military that everyone agrees with. Now i recognize the gentleman from florida if youve are calling this informative meeting and i want to thank the witnesses, both of you it is always a pleasure to hear from you and gain your insight. Would you say this is the top priority right now x. The way that i describe it as living presence in the solar system, but it is one of the steppingstone approach us as we move human presence into the solar system. As a priority basis how would you prioritize things . We need to be careful and i dont pick destinations. I talk about building more of a capability or the expanding bubble that is described where we kind of move out into the solar system and bring the commercial sector of the economy with us as we move, so im looking for a much longer Strategic Vision than this particular single destination and i see this as a continuum of gaining the skills that we need to have as we move further into the system. I appreciated hearing you use the word steppingstone in reference to the mail in just a few moments ago in answer to that question and i think congress can have expressed that they like pretty much everything you do to be a steppingstone. That ought to be a goal and you know and i know that everything is a priority. Nothing is a priority and so i would really like to hear him acknowledge that as a top priority and everything we do is in fact a steppingstone to reaching that goal for a number of reasons. Are you familiar with the flight program, he is my constituent and i heaconstituentsand i hearn frequently. Whats you take a moment to share with me to plan but you are pursuing is superior to the plan that he suggests . Again i think in the world we often like to contrast things and show how they are different and we try to pick one or the other. If you look at the approaches that we have laid out where we have potentially some kind of a platform around the vicinity of the moon and be used as a staging ground to go to mars, that has similar aspects to the concepts mr. Aldrin talks about. It doesnt continually cycle that we are using the moon potentially into the orbit is a staging position to go to mars rather than returning directly back to the earth, so there are pieces of what he described in the plan maybe not as much as he would like. Maybe he would like to plan the way that he described it with a large cycle in place. But i think that we look to the community to get good ideas from everyone. We look at academia and the astronauts and the commercial industry. We want to take all of those great ideas and put them together to build a Strategic Plan that we have been providing to move forward. I do not see it as one or another is his or our superior but there are advantages and disadvantages of a hybrid between the two that might be the best solution for all of us. That is a pretty good answer and i would assume funding approvals are a big part of that. Definitely. We are constrained by the financial environment. We are giving the adequate resources to need the league could do what we need to do what we need to reflect that in the planning up to build a program that requires more funding and is available and that is a concern as we do the planning. I would like to comment we have to quit talking about either the moon or mars. As it is mentioned it isnt or committees and. If we are thinking carefully about how we are moving that i think everyone in the room understands we want to go for a number of reasons. At one time there was quite a bit of opposition to it and the people that were opposed to sit usitbeen there done that have py much acknowledged that to go further or that is the smartest way to do it. And if we can do it in a way that as we bring the industry behind us they can expand that developers ou out to the moon ad the government continues to grow and leading that charge if you will, so there is a smart way to do this where you pass through the moon and do the things you need to build the Operational Capability to go to mars and then you bring the Economic System behind you so its stable and provides the additional capability to continue. Thank you, doctor. The gentleman from colorado. I will put up by prop for one second. To be parochial, and three days or seven days from the air force base, we will launch the gpss that was built in colorado upon the United Launch Alliance rocket that was also built in colorado, so each of us from an economic point of view and also from the point of view of pride has a stake in the Space Program, period. And all of us up here are pretty much on the same page when it comes to getting us to mars. I dont care how we get there, just get their by 2033 if not a lot earlier. So, my job whether it is a steppingstone to the moon or we use a hyperlink or somebody comes up with a beaming us over to mars i just want one of the astronauts on mars. Thats the main vehicle we have to do this now. Youve heard me talk about this and obviously our job is to get utah funding so you can have the constancy of purpose on a 16 year project and we dont have that yet. And its our responsibility to do that but for me i am a result oriented guy. I dont know what the best engineering and science and exactly how to do that thats your responsibility. Ive got to try to find those resources so that you can do that. But others up here are more accounted types and want to make sure we hit the benchmarks and milestones as do you. You are engineers and that is how you operate. So, the anxiety some fee fuel we already missing as kind of a milestone early in the 16 year journey is something i think we all have to take seriously. But our responsibility is to provide you with the resources. Let me ask a couple of basic questions. In a sort of developing this program, how do you see us adding International Partners . Has there been any discussions with other countries about partnering with us in a major project like this . Theres been quite a bit disgust, theres been the global exploration roadmap published next january that kind of provides a framework moving forward of which is consistent with everything that we are building. They see oreilly in and what youre getting with the space station as a part of the overarching framework. The activities are out of the moon where we talk about the potential crew activity and the International Partners that are extremely interested in that house was the commercial industry we are working with both commercial industry and International Partners. As it was described earlier, i think this was a Team Activity where they do the peace and we have the space launch system that can take 45 metric ton is to the vicinity of the moon but then we can use the commercial launch vehicles for ten routinely to the vicinity of the moon so it doesnt have to be every flight. The rockets you talked about from colorado, the launch alliance and what is being done with the origin of those can all be used as a part of the architecture of nevada. They have a drop test the 15th of this month to look at vehicle coming back. All of that fits together with our interactive framework. They see how they can participate as being a part of this endeavor. In your participation with the associatio association whate in terms of willingness by the private sector as well as outreach to other countries. Theres a huge amount of interest to participate in this project in any way shape or form there are a lot of Small Companies that are engaging in this space that never existed before. There are established Companies Taking innovative approaches to how they want to engage and theres a lot of energy out there and great ideas. I have no doubt we can do it. Internationally, they look to us to provide the vision and energy and drive, not necessarily to be the dictators and correct everybody on what to do but they mentioned the roadmap. Theres a lot of enthusiasm to have the United States this is great you have the vision we all want to take apart its figure out how to do that. We can if we keep it funded. Now the gentleman from florida. Thank you very much mr. Chairman and it is always a lot of fun to come here and listen to be interesting and intelligent people you bring to these hearings. I have a thousand questions and only five minutes, so i will jump right in. We spoke earlier you know my background as a surgeon so im going to ask you questions if i can. What are the special risks or are there special risks in deep Space Missions that differ from the Long Duration of Earth Orbit Missions . Probably the biggest risk that occurs as the rescue radiation and radiation exposure if it is in deep space. Around the earth we are shielded somewhat from the radiation and that is gone so we are going to have to look at the techniques to shield the crew and look at if theres any other techniques we can do in terms of medication and other things to help. Its not an insurmountable problem but its a problem we need to address that we cant look at as easily around the earth as we would like. So you are already opening up new avenues of researchers and Life Sciences for these deep extended missions. And of course some of that can translate word. Anything we learn from the astronauts kelly experiments. The exciting thing is looking how the genome changes. It is a microgravity change and can differentiate between. And why certain ones regulated in some way and down regulate when its supposed to microgravity that is a Fascinating Research subject. I would have to bring some of the researchers here that are better versed than myself but they can explain to you what they are seeing and its opened up a whole new line of questioning and this is how i think science and medicine advances the new questioning that you never thought about and you are now exposed to it and it puts into question the basic theory that changes and now you have a brandnew way to solve a problem or do something in the future so this is a very exciting phase. We look forward to hearing from that side as well. How does this affect the modifications for the deep Space Missions that vary from the low earth orbit what are you doing with that to make it more fathomable . The radiation environment again weve got some potential shielding when we took them on the speed to be this space test flight we take it on mission one that will play the radiation fln centers and we will also fly a mockup of a human torso in the capsule and embedded with the radiation monitors to simulate the various organs and then we will look at the radiation on the outside on mission one to gain insight to see if that provides protection but i think that it will be some type of a storm shoulder or radiation shelter design in the future space flight. We talked about the Long Duration. Are we going to put animal experiments on the Mars Missions . I dont believe we have any animal missions on the exploration the First Mission we just have the instrumentation and the hardware that we could look at that. We dont have the lifesupport system there so we would have somtodo some sort of lifesuppot system on the flight to accommodate that we are doing significant Animal Research on board and we have all the basic animal models. Can you comment on that . And i was on the space station for four and a half months and i felt like the exercise protocols we had were sufficient. I came back with no bone loss density. So i think weve gone back and that is the key issue. We still are learning a lot about what can happen in the radiation environment and i think the ability to do some work around the moon while inform us a little bit more about what he dont know and give new line of inquiry to make sure we have the bases covered. You have an excited and engaged and interested committee, so keep us in your thoughts and keep us informed. Thank you very much and i will yield back. Now recognizing the gentleman from california. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. It is a jump between various events so i will go back and look at the testimony that we have had so far. I am on the Foreign Affairs committee as well as the Science Committee and im very interested now in what our next major step into space as to what we see as an International Goal meaning talking about going to the moon and establishing a longterm presence on the moon. In the space station we have people from other countries have partnered with us. Us. Are we planning anything like that for the moon presents . Guess we are and in fact as we discussed earlier Service Module that provides the propulsion and life support gases come from the space agency and its being manufactured by them and this is their contribution in a real way to the first steps in exploration. Does the administration have plans on this that we need to know about . We had a 45 day report action that came out of the Space Council and continue to work on that and see and refine details but theres been a general agreement that International Support is a good thing for deep space and we will continue to build off of what weve done and look for ways that we can continue the same partnership as we move towards the moon and mars. And i hope we get a little more details exactly to have more cooperation that we can expect. To accomplish the specific goals with the mars mission. We have that expiration due to congress in december then show you those specifics and how we can do those internationally. Now like to recognize the gentleman from louisiana. I very much appreciated to as we are united in our enthusiasm moving the program for word. I represent louisiana so could you explain this . It is say largest facility with the Hydrogen Tank and the way and then there is a spinning rod that is overreacting and with day high a r. P. M. To melt and use those two pieces of aluminum sheeting together. Can with those he distortion. And then that is very strong that has been then to be stronger in the past. So that it is typically less and allowing those components to be joined together. Let me jump forward. As we had discussed earlier as a stepping stone with those landing sites . From that robotic standpoint looking at the Apollo Missions that is around the equator of the moon. We see water in the now in the north and south so if we dont have to carry all resources with us into the solar system we could get water from the moon that could be very interesting. And those of you a bite to investigate so if we can understand how that to the market. With the shelter for a the human presence in one of those major challenges to develop and where they stay last month. In Japan Aerospace agency discovered a large and stable 300 feet deep and 300 feet wide what they refer to as skylights with the roof of the tube that collapsed and does this change the paradigm what they might be considering . So to have a structure or location that could be interesting. That is something we need to continue to look at. Also talk about with that capability. And with that gateway concept. And then to understand what is available. So with these underground caverns. That is stated by a reputable scientist so do your studies concur . I am not familiar or ask someone. They give for your continued research. So there are several of this. So the recent slip in and with that course stagy issue so what impact the delays of the Service Module of the europeans on december 2019 . So that doesnt lead to further delays . Working extensively with the European Space agency. To make sure we can do that from a scheduled sam point. There are some highpressure helium balls manufactured from the europeans. And to help with activity we actually have the design for that valve to provide for that application. Also to get a state Department Approval to send those technicians to assist the european Service Module. The delivery date is suppose to be april but maybe we could see that slip them looking at what we could do downstream. So we may do a simulator. Instead of having orion with the european Service Module but we are well aware of that as a key risk area doing everything that we can but first time manufacturing think you very much. As one of the exciting parts is looking and the propulsion system and is well. So with that propulsion especially going into deeper space . So in terms of efficiency so then with that facility with that proportion to a totally different orbit. And then with that vehicle to move. And that is the vantage. In the context of the discussions to develop this system the technology that is available for everyone to use and then to advance to take a vintage of that capability. Karen to study contracts with satellite manufacturers to see if they would have interest with the next generation of electric propulsion. So that would be enabling the commercial Communication Satellite industry. The net is beyond where they are today. So they gain directly what were trying to do and to do that capability. It is a winwin between Industry Analysts and thus. Mentioning the commercial activities, and what we thought about International Cooperation is there the extended moon presents . To include the private sector we didnt have these Companies Like speesix or others making their contribution to read expect or commercial involvement in the way to help bring down the cost as well . We certainly have of the next up working with five Companies Looking at that capability and actively engaged. They are very interested in what they can do with us and then maybe to the International Space station. As i described earlier to carry a large mass to the vicinity of the moon that we will definitely use those launch vehicles with all of those capabilities, all of those will be used to what is interesting looking at this week though those launch and commercial capabilities how we build a plan with all of those . So we put that together into a plan. Terrific. Thank you for that answer. This is of broad area participant. Thanks to the witnesses for this interesting hearing and juror valuable testimony but the record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments in written questions that hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] when when and and and and now [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] announcer tonight. It was imperative for me,. Ecause i had a platform not speaking on behalf of any intelligence agency. 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