Transcripts For CSPAN Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg On Public Interest Law 20171030

Justice ginsburg does not need any introduction. Even if she did, just williams will be doing it over the next hour. Personl have a fabulous will lead you through the phenomenal career. I would like to introduce you to judge williams. She is also known as the mother of equal Justice Works because in 1991, six years after she joined the bench can you believe it . She is so young looking, it is incredible. [inaudible] [laughter] in 1991, judge williams awarded the leftover funds in an antitrust case, which gave us the funding to create our postgraduate fellowship program. At the time, seven fellowships and now, 300. Judge williams, thank you. We are forever indebted to you. [applause] judge williams was the first attorney of color in the u. S. Attorneys office in chicago. She was a division chief and and and then served on the u. S. District court. She is the and only judge of first color on the u. S. Court of appeals for the seventh circuit. [applause] judge williams founded just the beginning foundation, a Pipeline Organization that aims to increase diversity by inspiring more young people to pursue legal careers. Before we begin, i want to turn to our speakers and introduce you to this extraordinary audience. These are the nextgeneration of Public Interest lawyers and i they have come from all over the country to interview for Public Interest jobs and hear the two of you speak. We are thrilled having here and i will turn it to judge williams. Judge williams thank you, david. [applause] good afternoon. I know we can do better than that. Good afternoon. Good afternoon judge williams you cannot imagine how excited we all were that Justice Ginsburg said yes. Yes to equal Justice Works because her heart has been with Public Interest enterprises. She devoted so much of her life to helping make things better in the world using her legal career. She said yes to this conference and career fair, yes to having this conversation. She is a rock star as you know. To understand how it is you became such a force, we begin at the beginning. You grew up in brooklyn, wonderful parents. Your mom did complete high school. Your dad did not. Your roots are in russia and austria. Your mother gave you some advice that stuck with you on your life. What did she say . Justice ginsburg my mother was born at an age where there were many things women could not do. The myth was a girl was to grow up, find prince charming, and live happily ever after. I suppose my mother hoped that i would meet prince charming one instilled in me was to be independent. Be able to depend on yourself. She called it to be a lady. And what she meant by that was do not give way to emotions that are unproductive, like anger or jealousy or remorse. They will not moving forward, so forget it. [laughter] that was the advice my wonderful mother gave me and repeated again and again. Judge williams and your mom really believed in education and believed in reading and books. She said taking to the Library Every week. The library was above the chinese restaurant, right . And there were some books that you liked. In particular, nancy drew. How many of you know about nancy drew . Wow this generation knew about it. [laughter] how did nancy affect you . Justice ginsburg nancy was the only girl out there doing things, including leading her boyfriend around. Everything else was in the dick and jane variety were dick was having all the fun and jane was in a pretty Pink Party Dress that she had to be very careful not to soil. Nancy drew was refreshing. In those days, i had one drew, andhero, nancy one real one that was amelia irh amelia earhart. Judge williams you are actually in the orchestra. The twirlers, the newspaper. Your mom said your mom became ill in high school and you used to study by her bedside. When you are confirmed or sworn in, you said your mom was the bravest or strongest person you have ever known. Taken from you much too soon. But she continues to inspire you today, doesnt she . Justice ginsburg she died just when i turned 17. She had been suffering with Ovarian Cancer for four years. She finally succumbed to it. She was an amazingly intelligent person, that the time, women didnt have the opportunity. To remember doesnt she remembered as a teenager marking in the parade. Which was growing up, women when she was growing up women , didnt even have the vote. Judge williams you never got because for girls, you never got a bar mitzvah. When you went about allgirls camp, you had an opportunity to be the rabbi. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg because it was an allgirls camp. [laughter] my Dear Colleague was the first girl with a bar mitzvah. Judge williams and then you did so well in school, you end up you ended up going to cornell. Next slide, please. You decided to major in government. You wanted to be a high school teacher. At what point did you decide you wanted to be a lawyer . Justice ginsburg it must have been around my sophomore, junior year. First, i tried of student teaching at Ithaca High School and didnt love it. [laughter] i was supposed to teach about the spanishamerican war. I got the syllabus. It said everything the United States it was right. Everything the other side did was wrong. And history was that way. [laughter] i have a wonderful professor for constitutional law. He wanted me to appreciate the United States was going through some rather bad times. It was the heyday of senator joe mccarthy from wisconsin. There was a huge red scare in the country. People who had belonged to socialist youth groups were before the house of americas committee. My professor pointed out to me there were Public Interest lawyers standing up for these people. Reminding Congress Members our constitution of the First Amendment. It says, you have a right to think, speak, and write as you believe and not as a big brother government tells you. And you have a privilege against selfincrimination, please do not have to answer questions being put to you. That did about lawyers that gave me the idea that lawyers are people who are trying to make the society stay in tune with its most basic values. I thought, well, you can earn a living as a lawyer and then you can do things to make things better in your community. Judge williams on this slide, it shows your college years. Not only did you get inspired with your lawyer, you actually met your future husband. Justice ginsburg yes. My first year, his second year at cornell. He was a very special fellow. Judge williams the slide is not up on the college years. If you could put that up for us because i love that slide. Dont all of you . I love that slide. Sorry, justice. Go ahead. Justice ginsburg the thing that was special about marty is he was the only way i had met up until then who cared that i had a brain. [laughter] judge williams you were 17 and he was 18 and you are married for 56 years. As a wedding gift to you, your motherinlaw evelyn give you a gift. You actually got married in your home. What advice did she give you . Totice ginsburg she told me just before we had the ceremony. She took me aside to the bedroom and said, i would like to send you the secret of a happy marriage. Yes, what is it . [laughter] it helps, now and then, to be a little deaf. [laughter] it was wonderful advice, not only in a marriage that lasted 56 years, but even to this day in dealing with my colleagues. [laughter] [applause] judge williams so then you did get married. You had your earplugs. Go back one more on the script. You got married and you marty, he wasnt drafted. He went into the military. He started at harvard then he had to go to the military. You moved to oklahoma to the Social Security office and that is when you first ran into real disparity and how it affected you. Tell us about that. Justice ginsburg i worked at the Social Security office and in oklahoma. I had taken a government engineer professional exam, and i thought i should tell the head of the office that i was three months pregnant. He said, you are pregnant. Well, then we cannot list you as s5. We will put you at the bottom, the lowest government rating. A gs2. You will do the same job but at the lower rank. And we cannot possibly send you to baltimore for training. You will certainly quit before your baby is born. It hadnt occurred to me that things would be that way, but i accepted it. Judge williams then he realized there was a chance when you move back that you have the opportunity to go to law school. You had the opportunity to go to law school. If we can have that slide on the law school years up on the screen so everybody can see that. You were admitted to harvard, there were nine women in your class. Justice ginsburg a big improvement over my husbands class that had five women. [laughter] judge williams and you did very, very well. You were very high in the class. Were you the first woman in the harvard law review . No, there wasrg one other woman in a class before mine. Harvard didnt admit women until 1951. There had been two women before that. Judge williams so number three. Marty got a job in new york and you transferred to columbia. And you were number one there. Is that right . Justice ginsburg tied. Judge williams you are tied for number one. As you can see, the justice is very precise. What we need on the Supreme Court. Do we not . There was this a 4 00 that had an impact. Can that go back on the screen . It meant something special. What was that . Justice ginsburg it meant that the babysitters time to leave had come. She was a new england type, very caring. She went in at 8 00 in the morning and left at 4 00. I worked very hard until it was time to go home. I took jane to the park. We sang silly songs. We looked at picture books. She had her dinner. By that time, i was more than content to go back to the law books. My life, each part of it was a rest from the other. Being with an infant, back to the books. Books to judge williams before we move on, theres one other thing about those law school years. Unfortunately, marty got sick and you had to deal with his classes and recovery. He had a form of cancer in days before there was anybody who heard the word chemotherapy. A who heard the word chemotherapy. The only thing there was was massive surgery plus radiation. Radiation was not very precise in those days. It was most distressing to have to go through that. Harvard was supposed to be a competitive place. I did not experience it that way because our classmates rallied around both of us. I took notes in his classes, visited in his hospital. When he came home, they had tutorials in our apartment. The result was marty got the best grades he ever got. [laughter] when he showed up for just two weeks of classes. His classmates were the best. Judge williams notwithstanding the fact you were number one at columbia. It is time for you to look for a job, you had guns to law for your second year. Every firm you apply to, 14 rejected you. Right now, there were 3 women in law school when you went through and there are 51 women there has been progress. You had a very hard road to hope. What strikes to you have against you . Justice ginsburg first, i was a jew and they were just beginning to accept jews. Second, i was a woman and many firms said, sorry, we had a lady lawyer once and she was awful. [laughter] but how many men did you hire that didnt work at they thought you would . [laughter] but there was jane who was four years old when i graduated law school. But if the firm were willing to take a chance on a woman, a mother was a bit much. Judge williams but finally, one of your professors came to your aid and approached a judge in the Southern District of new york. What kind of proposition was given . Justice ginsburg it came with a carrot and stick. It was give her a chance. If she doesnt work out, there is a man in a downtown firm, he will jump in and take over the reins. If you do not give her a chance, i will never recommend another columbia student to you. [laughter] the judge was fiercely loyal to columbia. He was a columbia undergraduate. Columbia law school. This professor, jerry guenther, was a renowned professor of law. He never told me about this until years and years later. Judge williams after that, you studied in sweden. That had a huge impact on you and really informs how you move forward in terms of womens rights and your approach to the law. What was that experience about . Justice ginsburg i was sent off to sweden to write a book with a swedish coauthor about their judicial system. Why sweden . They decided they would have a new code of procedure and it would incorporate to be the best of the angloamerican system. It was kind of a blend of the civil law way and the common law approach. It had been in effect long enough to report on it. When i went off to sweden, i discovered something. In my law school class, women were treated badly there. In sweden, they were already in 20 or 25 of the offices. Wait a minute. I observed a proceeding in a court of first instance in stockholm. The processing judge was eight months pregnant. There was a counterpart of jurors sitting on the bench with her. There was a woman who wrote a column in the daily paper to this effect. Why should the women have two jobs and the man only one . What she meant by that was in the 1960s, it was accepted that for a family to do well economically, the woman was expected to have dinner on the table at 7 00, to have his slippers ready for him, to take the children to get them medical checkups. What she meant was he should do more than take out the garbage. [laughter] that stimulated a lot of conversation. Some women said, she is absolutely right. Others said, i can do everything, the queen bee type. I wouldnt think of asking him to help me do what i can very well do. I thought she certainly had the better point, the author. An ideal family has two parents, two earners, two caregivers. I was in the early 1960s and i decided that was the right way to go. An eyeopening book called the second sex. I put it on the back burner because times were not yet right. That was taking a big step forward. Judge williams but then times got right. You were a law professor from 1962 to 1980. You wrote the first textbook on women and discrimination. One of the things you noticed apple schools was your pay was payequal to male professors. How did you handle that . I was hired in 1963. That was the year the equal pay act passed. My good dean, he was a good and kind man. He explained to me i would have to take a significant cut in salary. I expected that because this was a state university. When he told me how much, i was startled. I asked, how much do you pay so and so . A man whos been out of school about the same time. He said, ruth, he has a wife and two children to support. And your husband has a good paying job with a new york firm. That was considered entirely right and proper. There were women whose eyes were opening at rutgers. Not only the entire campus, without making a big fuss, equal pay act was brought. It was settled in 1969. The lowest increase was 6000. In those days, that was quite bit more than it is today. So, the dean learned from that experience. [laughter] judge williams so here is the lesson. Here was a young law professor who saw a wrong that needed to be righted. Sometimes you look at her, you think, shes born with gavel in her mouth. She was young just like all of you and needed to do something. She got involved. She stood up to get it corrected. Thats the lesson. Can we have that slide again . It turns out your daughter also followed in your footsteps and you were the first motherdaughter tenured women at columbia. Justice ginsburg yes. Judge williams the other thing you did, it was not just an issue of your pay and the professors pay, you were very concerned about the maids and janitors. There was disparity there as well, right . Justice ginsburg it was my very first week teaching at columbia law school. Now this is 1972. And a feminist came to me and said, columbia, today, gave lay off notices to 25 maids and not a single janitor. What are you going to do about it . [laughter] Justice Ginsburg so i went immediately to the Vice President in charge of business. And i told him, columbia is violating title vii. And you should combine the seniority list. If you must lay off people, then you do it by seniority with women and men together. I was told, we are represented by a very good firm. So thank you for expressing interest, and would you like a cup of tea . [laughter] Justice Ginsburg so that friday there was a motion of injunction Going Forward with the layoff notices. Before that, there was a press conference at columbia that had some very outstanding women there. Gloria steinem and others. And then, the equal of womens Opportunities Commission sent a chief counsel down for the preliminary injunction. The union, whose contract called for separate seniority lines between men and women, so every woman would have to go before the first man was fired, the union switched sides. And columbia was astonished. They were there all alone. And they protested to the union representative, this was your contract that we signed. Well, we cant enforce a contract that violates title vii. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg so the preliminary injunction was issued, and low and behold columbia found it wasnt necessary to fire anyone. They could take care of the excess in the department by a attrition. So people were not replaced. The women who were involved, they were remarkable. They didnt care whether they were paid less than the men. They expected that. They wanted a job, they wanted to keep their job and didnt want to be forced on to welfare. They had very little selfesteem when it started. But in the process, they came to appreciate themselves as they should. Two of them ended up being shop stewards. Judge williams with this kind of activity in this kind of leadership, wanted to focus on womens rights issue. And you cofounded the aclu women s rights project. At some point, you were pregnant again, but you handled it a little differently. Justice ginsburg yes. I didnt announce that i was pregnant. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg i was at that time on a yeartoyear contract. And i feared that if i told the dean that i was pregnant, my contract would not be renewed. So instead, i borrowed my motherinlaws clothes. The ever supportive motherinlaw. She was one size larger. I was able to get through the spring semester. My son conveniently was born early in september. And then on the last day of classes, i said to my colleagues, when i come back in the fall there will be one more in our family. That ended the speculation about my gaining lot of weight. [laughter] judge williams and so then in that project, working with the aclu and womens rights project, you won five out of six cases before the Supreme Court. First is reid versus reid. Women have the right to serve as the administrator of an estate. Military housing benefits for husband, equals wives. Social security Survivor Benefits for men equals wives. When we look at these cases, i have to get to the one. You focused a lot on righ in your strategy. T . Y was thatts why wa Justice Ginsburg first, to illustrate the Discrimination Laws that divided people into in the law. Laws that divided people into separate spheres. The home and raising children, that was the womans sphere. Earning bread for the family was a mans. If a woman had a job, she was considered a secondary pin money earner, not the earner who counted, so she is not going to get protection for her family in Social Security laws. The case involved a man whose wife was a math teacher in high school. She had a very healthy pregnancy. The doctor came out and reported to stephen, your wife gave birth to a healthy boy. But she died of an embolism. He vowed he would not work full time until the child was in school full day. And he figured that, between the Social Security benefits and earning up to the earnings limit under Social Security, he could just about make it. When he went to the Social Security office, he was told, were sorry, these are mothers benefits and not available to fathers. When that case was presented to the Supreme Court, we explained that the discrimination began with the attitude toward women. Wiesenthal had paid the same Social Security taxes that a man had paid, but when she died her family did not get the same benefits that a mans family would get. So this discrimination starts with the woman. Then the man as parent is disadvantaged. He hasnt got a choice to spend time with the child. He has got to work full time. And then, the argument that prevailed it was totally , arbitrary from the point of view of the baby. Why should the baby have the opportunity from the soul providing parent, if the parent is female but not if the parent is male. The idea was, this discrimination against women, this was putting women in an off place in a mans world. It hurts everybody. It hurts men and hurts children. Judge williams and at this work that you did was recognized by president carter. In fact, university of chicago dean Jeffrey Stone said you were the single most important woman lawyer in the history of the republic. And you parallelled thurgood marshall, who was the most significant lawyer related to africanamericans and others of color. When you were appointed to the court, it was by president jimmy carter to the court of appeals. And you made this statement, you never thought becoming a judge was possible. That was because everything that had gone before you. Justice ginsburg first i like to make a correction. [laughter] judge williams all right. Justice ginsburg it is about the most remarkable thurgood marshall. Yes, i copied his technique in trying to educate the court, take them one step at a time to the ultimate goal. Thurgood marshall, in his lawyering days, when he got up in the morning in a southern town, he did not know he would be alive at the end of that day. My life was never threatened. So there is an enormous difference. Still, when he argued cases and he would say to the court, separate but equal is not before the court today. These facilities are unequal. And when he had a sufficient number of building blocks, then he made the argument. The separation of children by race in school. That could never be equal. So that notion of leading the court to where you want them to go. But taking them, not attempting to take a giant step. But taking them there one step at a time. That was his technique. And it was a winning one. And we copied it. About being a judge, when i attended law school, there was only one woman in the entire history of the country who would ever served on a federal appellate bench. She was Florence Holland from ohio. She stepped down in 1959, the year i graduated, then there were none again until 1968 when president johnson made an appointment to the court of appeals on the ninth circuit. Judge williams and when you were appointed, there have been 12 before you. And when we look at the numbers in terms of the federal judiciary from 1789, 409 women in the state courts, 31 have been women. When we look at the District Court historically 12 now, 26 , historically, 12 on the circuit, now 27 . This is on the federal court. And in the Supreme Court, out of the 113, four and now three out of nine, 33 . People certainly know that women are on the court. Thats one of the points you made. And that women are here to stay. And you then went on to the Supreme Court. Your nomination went 50 days, compared to whats going on now, whats your wish or desire or dream in terms of how nominations move through the system . Justice ginsburg before we get to president clinton, let me give a big plug for jimmy carter. I said that women were barely there. That was true for the members of minority groups as well. Jimmy carter looked at the federal bench, he said, they all look just like me. Theyre all men and theyre all white. But thats not how the great United States looks. He looked in places that people did not look for. And he said, i am going to appoint members of minority groups and women not as one at a time curiosities, but in numbers. He only four years in office. He had no vacant seats on the u. S. Supreme court to fill. But he bitterly changed the complexion of the u. S. Judiciary. And no president went back to the way it was. So reagan was inspired to appoint the first woman to the Supreme Court. So it was jimmy carter who was not a lawyer, who was responsible for this. Judge williams and you are absolutely right. The contribution he made was extraordinary. President clinton nominated you to the Supreme Court. The vote was 963. And one of the comments you made was you had not accomplished anything alone. What did you mean by that, and how can that help these students as they move forward in their careers . Justice ginsburg not only didnt i do things alone, i had the people who were working with me. Its hard to be a loner. If you have likeminded people, working with you and you are supporting each other in what you are trying to accomplish, that makes an enormous difference. Which my appointment, and this is also true of justice spryer who came a year later, there was a true bipartisan spirit in our congress. You can probably not imagine that today. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg but my biggest supporter on the judiciary committee, the Senate Judiciary committee, was not then senator biden. He was the chair of the committee. He was certainly supportive. But my biggest supporter was orin hatch. I wondered whether he would touch me with a 10foot pole if my nomination had come up in the current century. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg but my hope is that we will go back one day, one day someone will blow a whistle, say a plague on both of our houses, lets get together and work for the good of the country. [applause] judge williams could you give them a little window into what your hours are and the workload that you have . [laughter] Justice Ginsburg my hours depend on whether were sitting. If we are sitting, i get up 7 00 in the morning. I try to get to the court by shortly after 9 00. So that is for those two weeks. The next two weeks, when we are doing two things, were writing opinions from the sitting that just ended and we are gearing up for the sitting that will follow. Then i have an unusual my hours are unusual. My day starts around noon. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg and then i work straight through the night and get maybe a couple of hours of sleep. Judge williams at 84. Alright. [laughter] judge williams there has been significant progress for women. And you are famous for this, you know, do you think thats enough . Justice ginsburg the question that is put to me is, now you are three, and when do you think therell be enough . Isnt it obvious . When there are nine. [applause] and people at first reject that, but then they realize for most of our country, there have been nine people on the Supreme Court bench. All of them male and all of them white. Judge williams so one of the cases that you really are proud of is the Virginia Military institute case. Something that was decided in 1996 that integrated it. Now 194 women out of 1700. You made this statement. I will never compromise when its a question of freedom of speech, press or gender equality. You came back to campus in 2017. And that was quite a remarkable visit, wasnt it . Justice ginsburg yes. The staff wanted me to come the year earlier to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the decision. I didnt quite make it but i got there in 2017. It was an exhilarating experience for me to see how much the school welcomed and appreciated women students. Judge williams the slide the u. S. Virginia military institute. Is that up . Ok. Justice ginsburg there were many who wanted to be engineers, nuclear scientists. Just about everything. The school had adjusted to their presence. The general in charge said in the beginning, it was a little rocky. And we made some mistakes. We said, ok, we have to take women but they will be treated just like the men. That means the day they come on campus, they will get their head shaved. Well, you see from the pictures of the women, that they realized that that was not really necessary. [laughter] judge williams and in terms of voting patterns, it comes up a lot and hold the slide for a minute. When we look at the statistics, 40 of the cases the court has decided have been unanimous. 40 less than that. And only 20 of the hot button 54 cases. The cases that are listed here in areas that affect so much of our american society. And theyre just hot button issues. How is it and there have been in the last 30 years, many chief justices. Yet, youre able to Work Together. And particularly you were asked about Justice Scalia who was on the opposite side. How are you able to manage that . Whats important about what holds a court together . Justice ginsburg collegiality is essential in a multimember court. We can never do the important work assigned to us if we didnt genuinely respect each other and in most cases, genuinely like each other. I liked Justice Scalia. I met him first when he was on the faculty of the university of chicago law school. He gave a speech to the American Law Association on some Administrative Law issue. I disagreed with most of what he said. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg but i was captivated by the way he said it. He was so amusing. And then we were buddies on the d. C. Circuits. And the one thing we had in common is we both really tried hard to write comprehensible opinions. My style is quite different. His is attention grabbing. Mine is milder. But we both worked very hard about getting it right and keeping it tight. Judge williams in one of the cases, you really differed with him on bush versus gore. I think he told you take a hot bath. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg that was the end of the day. This was a marathon. The Court Granted review on saturday. Brief filed sunday, oral argument monday, decisions and there were multiple opinions out on tuesday. It has been a long and trying day. And Justice Scalia called me into chambers, it was 9 00 at night. He said, ruth, why are you still at the court . Go home and take a hot bath. It was good advice. [laughter] and people ask, after that, you had a sitting very soon after that, how did you Work Together . The answer is, we revealed the institution we serve, we know that we cant do its work if were going to be at each other. So we went on to the january sitting. And it was almost the same. The interesting thing about bush versus gore, strongly as i disagreed with the results, the Supreme Court decided the case. There was no rioting in the street. Everybody accepted the results. Thats not true in many countries in world. Judge williams mhm. There was another case, Lily Ledbetter versus goodyear. You wrote a famous dissent in that case. And it had to do with the filing of the equal pay lawsuit when it had to be filed. And you said you were dejected, but only momentarily. These issues will come back again and again. There will be another time, another day. Here that was corrected by the Lily Ledbetter fair pay act. And i know you have this photo in your chambers. One of the things that happens when you file a dissent, you wear a specific collar. Right . Justice ginsburg yes. Judge williams right. Justice ginsburg everyone knows when i come into the court with that collar. [laughter] i do not ordinarily dissents are noted by the majority opinion author. And the dissent doesnt summarize the dissenting opinion. I did in the Lily Ledbetter case, because i wanted everybody to understand lilys situation. She was an area manager at a Goodyear Tire plant. She was the only woman who held that position at her plant. One day, someone put slip of paper in her mailbox with a series of numbers. The numbers she recognized right away. It was the pay of every area manager. And she saw that her pay was less than the pay of the much younger man she trained to do the job. So she said, ive had it. I want to sue. She brings the lawsuit. Coupled with an equal pay claim. And she got a sizable jury verdict. When it got to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court accepted goodyears argument that she sued too late. Because title vii says, you must complain to the eeoc within 180 days of the discriminatory incident. Well, lily, you were discriminated against for a dozen or more years. Youre way out of time. I tried to explain in the dissent, something that every working woman knows. That if you are the first woman in a job that has dominantly been held by men, you do not want to be perceived as a complainer and you do not want to rock the boat. So you go along. Besides, if you did sue early on, you could be sure what the defense would be. The defense would be, it has nothing to do with her being a woman. She just doesnt do the job as well. But then her employer year after year, is giving her good employment ratings. So they no longer have the defense that she doesnt do the job as well. So she has a winnable case. But my colleagues said that she sued too late. My simple theory is that every time she receives a paycheck, the discrimination is renewed. It starts again. So she can sue within 180 days of her paycheck. And the tagline of my dissenting opinion was, the ball is in congresss court to correct the error into which my colleagues have fallen. [laughter] and there is president obama signing the Lily Ledbetter fair pay act. First piece of legislation he signed when he took office. And there, lily right behind him, and men women who were applauding what he did. And nancy pelosi is only one who didnt get the dress code. [laughter] judge williams she didnt get the red memo. [laughter] judge williams and then in chambers, you have a life you refer to your clerks as your family, and you made this statement, so often in life, things that are impediment turn out to be great. Do you think you would have gotten that job as partner when you applied with one of those law firms that youd be here today . Justice ginsburg it is a remark that Justice Oconnor made to me. She said, suppose we had lived at a time when women were accepted at the bar. You know what we would be today. You and i would be retired partners from some law firm. So at the time, we thought it was not good that we werent retired. But because we had go a different route, we ended up being Supreme Court justices. So we will never know. Judge williams very good thing. Looking at balancing husband and work, if you could put the slide up, marty was that life partner who thought your work was important as his. And marty was quite a chef. In the early days, you were also cooking for the family. And at some point, your daughter jane asked you to stop cooking. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg daddy was the company and the weekend cook. I was never allowed to cook for our weekend guests. I had a book called, 60 minutes chef. You get into the apartment and 60 minutes later the dinner is ready. I had seven things that i made. I went in order. I got to number seven, i went back to number one. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg marty loved cooking. And he was quite an accomplished chef. So my daughter jane decided, daddy should do more than the company and weekend cooking. He should be the everyday cook as well. [laughter] Justice Ginsburg so for me it was kind of like tom sawyer getting the fence painted. When marty died, jane took on the responsibility of making sure that her mother was properly nourished. So she comes once a month, spends all day cooking and fills the freezer with food, we do something nice together in the evening. And then she comes back the next month. So she will be here on november 13. And then she comes back the next month. So she will be here on november 13. [laughter] [applause] and incidentally, the evening activity will be her lecture, i do not remember where it is, but she is a world leading expert on copyright and trademark. So she will be speaking about it. Judge williams and you have said you cannot have it all, all at once. Over your lifespan, you think you have had it all. But you can not have it all at once, right . Justice ginsburg and that was written by a well known woman complaining that men can have it all but women cant. I said, looking back at my long life, i have had it all. But not at one time. And in the marriage, you adjust to what the other needs. And so there were times, like when my husband was determined to become a partner in five years, that i was doing the lions share of the homework. When the aclu womens rights project started, marty realized the importance of that work. When i first got my good job in washington dc, on the circuit, people would ask me, is it hard going between your job and d. C. Everyday . And i would say, why do you think i am doing that . [laughter] Justice Ginsburg to show you some things are a lot better. When i was introduced that first year, reception, more often than not, when judge was introduced, the hand went out to marty. His answer would be, she is judge ginsburg. Im still hopeful. [laughter] judge williams and also, if we go into your hobbies. We will not go into all of her hobbies, but you love music. Youve actually been on stage in opera, and an opera was named after you and scalia. So that was quite a moment for you when you were on stage with Justice Scalia and the opera. Justice ginsburg i was on stage with him as a super, as an extra, twice. The opera i am monotone so, i could not play my own part. But it is a wonderfully amusing opera. And it sets the difference between two of us. So his opening is a rage aria. The justices how could they possibly spout this . The constitution says absolutely nothing about this. And i explained to him, hes searching for Bright Solutions to problems that dont have easy answers. But the great thing about our constitution is that, like our society, it can evolve. That is the difference. As still is, the plot is based on the magic flute and scalia is lost in a dark room and he is being punished for excessive dissenting. [laughter] and i have to break through the Glass Ceiling to help him. [applause] and then the man who is testing scalia says, why would you want to help him . Hes your enemy. And i say, hes not my enemy. Hes my friend. And then we sing a duet. We were different, we are one. Different in our approach to legal, reading legal text, but one in our reverence for the u. S. Constitution and for the institution we serve. Judge williams so your son has your love for Classical Music and opera. And he started his own company. Marty was the first chair of his board. An award is given in his honor. And patrice, your daughterinlaw, is quite an exquisite singer. So Classical Music. And your other hobbies, you have many, traveling, music, working out, 1999. So who got you on that path . That was marty again. Justice ginsburg yes, at the end of my bout with Colorectal Cancer and marty said, you look like a survivor of a concentration camp. You have got to do something to build yourself up. So i asked around and Gladys Kessler who was a District Court judge, said i have the right person for you. Judge williams put that slide up again. Working out. Justice ginsburg he works in the d. C. District court clerks office, but in his spare time he is a personal trainer. So i have been with him since 1999. Judge williams and the book is already out. She does 20 military type push ups. She does 30 planks. I mean, holding it for 30 seconds. So she has actually left a white house dinner so she could make her appointment with bryant. Now Justice Kagan does kick boxing. Justice ginsburg no, she does real boxing. Judge williams and real boxing. And hasnt just as prior now signed up just as prior now signed up . And he says, she is tough as nails. Then we have the making of the notorious rbg, which the two law students commenting on your Shelby County decision and hobby lobby. Those dissents. And you didnt even know who notorious was . Justice ginsburg he told me about notorious b. I. G. And so i looked up about him. And i said, we have something very important in common. What do you have in common with notorious b. I. G. . We were both born and bred in brooklyn. [laughter] [applause] but i think, the second year in why you student, when she thought of this it was after the Shelby County decision. She was angry. She thought that the courts decision was egregiously wrong. And then what i said before about not wasting time being a great, she said i will of being angry, she said i will do something positive about this. So she started this tumblr. It starts with my dissent in the Shelby County case. And it has gone on from there. Judge williams so she involved from extraordinary justice to notorious. Keep the slide up. There are other things coming. I particularly like the princess gown you are wearing. All the tshirts. And the little girls imitating you. And this is my favorite tshirt. And then there were many books written about you, even before you became notorious. Now we have coloring books and storybooks for children and more books have come out about you. And in fact, your own words, which was published october 4, 2016. How does it feel to be so notorious . [laughter] Justice Ginsburg it is amazing, now going on to 85, Everyone Wants to take a picture with me. [laughter] rick and judge williams and in fact there will be abiotic a biotic. Felicity jones will be playing you. Justice ginsburg at this moment they are in montreal already filming it. Judge Williams Well look for that. I love this, women belong in all places where decisions are made. Little girls who look like a justice in every respect, earrings, gloves. [laughter] judge williams and you are not just a role model for those little girls, but you were a huge role model for me. One time, i was president of the federal judges association, i was at the white house. Hold that frame. I had to introduce president bush to our group of about 600 federal judges and spouses. And there was a letter that you wrote to me in may, let me get the date, may of 2001, a letter that i have had in my scrapbook, my whole career as a judge. That cheers on a job well done, particularly impressed by your words at the white house. Conveyed the message in an appealing way, hope the Second Branch really listens with every good wish for your life and works next chapter. So that was something thats inspired me. Now outside of the federal courthouse in washington. The European Union campaigns to the ukrainians. , he was seeking to further democracy and help the ukraine come closer to the United States and the eu. 2014,activities ended in two years before mr. Manna ford served in the Trump Campaign. They are using a novel theory. United States Government has only used that offense six times since 1966, and only resulted in one conviction. The second thing about this indictment that i find most ridiculous is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts to bring all of your funds into the United States is a scheme to conceal from the noted States Government, it is ridiculous. Thank you. [indiscernible questions] an attorney for Paul Manafort, along with president ial adviser rick gates, indicted today in federal court in washington, pleading not guilty to charges. The attorney making some brief statements. With ay plea entered former advisor. As other comments that happen outside of the courtroom, we will bring you here live. We will take you back to the conversation with Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg. Ginsburg most injuring values. Entering enduring values. How long will you remain on the court . Justice ginsburg i used to have an answer that worked for a lot of years. He was the same age as i was and he stayed for 23 years. So i expect to stay at least as long. Well, now i have passed him i have passed my tenure, so my answer is as long as i can do the job. He the job full speed, i will do it. [applause] judge williams you had said that you had prayed that you would be all that your mother would have been if she had lived in an age when women could have aspired and achieved and cherished as much as their sons. I think we can all agree here, you have been way more than your mother could have dreamed or imagined. Transformative, phenomenal, inspirational, that is who we have before us. Justice ruth bader ginsburg. [applause] Justice Ginsburg thank you. Judge williams can we do a couple of questions . She wants can she do a couple . If she would like to. Sure. Do you want to . Justice ginsburg yes. Judge williams lets do three. [chatter] judge williams she has the mic. You have to hold it. Hi. Judge williams and tell us your name and your school and what year. My name is elizabeth hyde, im a second year mccain knee Mckinney School of law in minneapolis. And out of your entire tenure on the bench, what is one decision or opinion you think should have gotten more attention, and whose significance has been overlooked . Justice ginsburg there are a few decisions, very few Supreme Court decisions that do not get attention. I spent 13 years on the u. S. Court of appeals for the d. C. Circuit. And i would say, although i worked very hard on my opinions there too. I realized they were not going to be widely read. Even so, i gave each case at the each case the best i could give it. So in general, i do not think back about, did this opinion get enough attention or not, just that i was given very good advice. A senior on the d. C. Circuit when i was a new judge, it was judge edward tan, and he said, you are going to work very hard on these sometimes complex cases, but when the opinion is released, do not look back. Do not worry about things that are over and done. Go on to the next and give it your all. So my advice is be a forwardlooking person. Judge williams another question. She needs a microphone. Although we can all hear you. [laughter] good evening, justice, judge williams, thank you so much for being here. Judge williams your name and school and your year. My name is evelyn batista, i go to Nova Southeastern university. In florida, fort lauderdale. And i read your autobiography. And if you have not gotten it, i would recommend it. Justice ginsburg its not an autobiography. It is selected speeches i have given, articles i written. The two people who are on that book with me, those are my official biographers. They started in 2004. Our original idea was that the biography would come out and then a book of selected writings. Thats 2004 to now. So i suggested a few years ago, why dont we flip the order and lets do this first. So that is how my words came to be. Judge williams and let me give a pitch for the book. If you go to the Supreme Court gift shot, there are autographed copies of that book. And also martys cookbook, which is a number one bestseller. Supreme court chef. Go ahead with your question. Thank you for the correction. My only question for you is, i have seen that you have been through a lot in your personal life and as a woman on the bench. And we have discussed a lot about the need for more Women Leaders on the bench and in the legal profession. What advice would you give to our male counterparts to help support womens leadership . Because i do not want to make them feel like they are less out of the discussion. I know a lot of allies that want to help, but theyre not sure how. Justice ginsburg i can think of one advice, perhaps not to tell your peers, but one of the things i tried to do when i was presenting gender discrimination cases in court was, to get the judges to think about what they would like the world to be for their daughters and their granddaughters. Thats one answer. Another is, when the Womens Movement came alive at the end of the 1960s, and i realized there was a possibility to get rid of all these arbitrary gender based lines if the law. Of the law, i went to the aclu. I did not go to the all womens group, because if this change was going to be made solid, it had to be men working together with women. Men putting what i call equal citizenship stature for men and women high on their human rights agenda. Together with freedom of speech, equal citizenship stature. And i think that, many of the men i worked with originally might have had doubts. When they realized what the history was and how arbitrary that the limitations on what women could do work, could do were, they became feminists. Judge williams another question . We need a microphone over there. My name it reina, im a recent graduate of law in florida. And i am a fellow sponsored by the florida bar association. [applause] thank you. It is an honor to hear you speak today. In my last year of law school, i focused on native american rights. Our teacher often referred to as it as the exception to exception. We would open our books and look at the opinions and look and say, it is ginsburg, whats going on. And we would look at opinions ginsburg. And it is clearly ginsburg, but its scalia. One of those cases that shook me and that still to this day confuses me was the oneida, you dont look back and youre forward thinking. After that case, we had adoptive couple be a baby girl. Would you consider that your forward progression of thinking when oneida crippled the native American Community that you fought in your dissent that your agreement of the sotomayor dissent, was that your moving forward to rectify something of the past . Justice ginsburg when you are on the losing side, you have to remain hopeful in this way. Yes, maybe the court did not get it right today, but they will have another opportunity. And when i think of the history of the u. S. Supreme court, think back to the time around world war i. When people who were opposed to the draft and expressing their views were arrested and charged with some criminal offense. There were two justices at the time who said, free speech. These people have a right to speak their mind. And the law shouldnt touch them for doing just that. They spoke just for themselves. But in the fullness of time, those First Amendment free speech dissents are the law of the land. The hope is that, i think it was chief Justice Hughes who said, the center is often writing for a future day. Dissent is writing for a future day. A future day when the majority will understand something they misperceived at an earlier time. Judge williams and the issue of gay rights has been something that has seen evolution as well with the court. Justice ginsburg yes. I think you once asked me, what accounts for the burst of progress in that area . And i think i said to you, there is a big difference between how our society has come to respect people, whatever their sexual preference. And race discrimination. And to our sadness, our country is still segregated in many places. People live in different neighborhoods. But when the Gay Rights Movement got to the point where people said, im not going to be in the closet anymore. I am going to say who i am and i am proud of it. We looked around, who are these people . They were our childs best friend. Our nextdoor neighbor. Sometimes our child. They were part of we. So it was not the same we, they separation that has retarded the in the of race discrimination. Judge williams final question. I do not know if we have time for one more. I was involved in nato. And i heard the rumors, the story and legend of but i did not hear who it was. I hate to admit i thought it was somebody else. It is terrible to say. But my mother was born in in 1942, she was diagnosed with bone cancer. She hurt herself on a bicycle. They said, take her leg. We do not think she will live. She spent a month in the the hospital. She went to a private school. She graduated valedictorian in high school. She went on to college. She married and had myself and brother and she took twins to term. But they died. My mother then had Breast Cancer at 30. She had to have double mastectomies. She was first chemopatient ever. An inspiration my mother. My life has been trying to fulfill some kind of shoes that i never could. As much as i love it, its such an awesome burden to be the one that continues to go through walls. You get bloody when youre the first. My question is, its very can personal. The moments where its a weight. Its heavy to be notorious b. I. G. What do you do . Rbg, what do you do . Justice ginsburg the question is what i do when you get burdened and overwhelmed. When you look at citizens united. How do you take that next step. One of the things that helps me a lot is my family. My daughter and my son and now four grandchildren and two step grandchildren. They help me through both of my cancer bouts. That is another, realizing the importance of what i am doing. I cant give way to any kind of burn out. I can stop for a moment. I read a chapter of a book. Listen to a recording. Before i was on the Supreme Court, i would take a walk by myself. [laughter] stop for a while and go back to it. You realized its very important that if you done it right. That it the last answer by the justice. I do want to present you with a bouquet from my favorite artist in kenya. These are beaded flowers, hand beaded flowers. You represent so much and youre a thing a woman of beauty and strength and inspiration. We hope these will help inspire you on those days when you need inspiration. So you will stay there forever. [laughter] [applause] [applause] former president drum president ial Campaign Manager Paul Manafort and his business associate rick gates pleaded not guilty to federal charges this afternoon at the u. S. District court. Bond was set at 10 million, 5,000,004 mr. Gates. They have been ordered to surrender their passports. Also, the first criminal case that sites interactions between the Trump Campaign associates and russian intermediates. The separate charges for mr. Manna ford and mr. Gates intend this says they acted for ukrainian interests. Kevin downey spoke to reporters a short while ago. Think you all saw today President Donald Trump was correct, there is no evidence mr. Manna ford, the Trump Campaign colluded with the russian government. Manafortrt represented pro democracy campaigns in the ukraine. He wanted to help the ukraine come closer to the United States. Those activities ended in 2014. Two years before mr. Manafort was in trumps campaign. You see an indictment brought by an office of special counsel using a novel theory to prosecute mr. Manafort regarding a filing. The United States government has only use that six times since 1966, and resulted in one conviction. The second thing about this isictment i find ridiculous the claim that maintaining offshore accounts to bring your funds into the United States as a scheme to conceal from the knotted States Government is ridiculous. Thank you. From the United States government is ridiculous. Thank you. Kevin downey, the attorney for Paul Manafort. It could make it more difficult to get Trump Campaign officials to speak to the committees according to the post. Those investigations continue with a couple of hearings coming up this week. Google, facebook, twitter executives will testify on russias use of social media and its influence in the 2016 race. That hearing coming up tuesday, 2 30 eastern on cspan 3 command a return to testify before two other committees, the Senate Intelligence Committee Per you can watch that live on cspan3 and all the hearings online at cspan. Org. Member of the, a white house spokesman Sarah Sanders should resign them and she likes credibility and outright lies to the american people. Should resign. She outright lies and likes credibility to the american people